I don't know why I never mention this in videos, but I send a Friday newsletter with a breakdown of the week's trending reproductive health news (and brief MDJ updates)! It's time consuming to create and I lose money on it every month, but I truly believe it's a very valuable and useful tool to stay looped into the repro health news space if you're interested! mailchi.mp/68d115710484/mdj-in-your-inbox-subscribe
I have a question for you: do you think that the way Targaryen women's are poorly cared for by the Measters in Westeros is a parallel for certain real world willful neglect and negligence when it comes to healthcare of women today and not just in the American medical field? So first an apology because this is somewhat wordy and I am truly sorry for putting all of this in a comment section but I've always been curious and I honestly respect your opinion so I have to ask. It seems as though you might not watch the show or read the book so just a little background on Targaryen women to understand where my thought process is coming from and to help you come to the best conclusion: the young girl you saw will end up having two birthing scenes in one she delivers a stillborn baby who in the book is described as having a tail and the prop that they use for the show has a lot of dragon features. The reason for this is Targaryen are descended from dragonlord sorcerers literally have dragon's blood in their veins to bind them to their dragons. All of their stillborn babies come out with dragon features ( this is constantly been documented within ASOIAF history) The dragon's blood thing is also why Targaryen women don't just "like" being in boiling hot water ( which targaryens have a natural resistance to it doesn't scold them or turn their skin red) but literally need it (dragons incubator eggs within volcanoes) yet the Masters only give them lukewarm water because that's what's acceptable for any pregnant woman I have always felt part of the reason for Targaryens not having healthy births is that the Maesters do not believe in Valyrian magic and ignore a lot of the text the Targaryen ancestors about themselves and just go by their own methods of caring for pregnant women despite the fact that 300 years of Targaryen rule(and documented accounts of all royal births) have shown them that their methods do not work for Targaryens women and their children ( because targaryens are not fully human) Daenerys (a 14 year old girl and one of 3 last living descendant of targaryens) in the original Game of Thrones gave birth to a stillborn son, Rhaegal, (whom she was not ever able to actually see because she was unconscious for 3 days after his birth) the way the witch who delivered him describe the baby was very graphic but it included bat-wings (really dragon wings) and being scaled like a lizard (also a common feature of stillborn targaryens.) Now taking out the Fantastical elements I am wondering does this ring true to history and even present day of people ignoring clear facts either out of willful ignorance and perhaps stubbornness as well as moral and religious reasoning (the religion part is relevant because the maesters are all trained in the Citadel which is the headquarters of the faith of the seven which condemn the Targaryen and the ancestral magic in them and according to the valyrians their magic and connection to the dragons all come from the ancient fire gods that they worship, probably another reason that their ancestral text which describe almost everything about them is ignored.) So for the Masters to properly help the targaryens they have to: 1st* admit that they were wrong in the past and that some of their long-held medical beliefs are wrong (they are meant to be the most intelligent men in the realm so of course they don't want to admit that) and 2nd they would have to acknowledge that the magic within the Targaryen blood is real which would challenge their beliefs which is more important than them than the health of these women I feel like this rings true to what's happened throughout history and what is currently happening today with doctors and certain organizations with religious backgrounds are choosing to spread ignorance and fight against any attempt to apply the needed medical assistance. This is despite the fact that there is existing proof that those much needed methods not only works but are direly needed in certain fields ignorance aside I think that the two things I just mentioned play a big role in the neglect of certain Health officials and of the Healthcare System (I also have a vested interest in mental health and I think this Rings true with psychologist) I wanna apologize again for how long this comment is but I just want to be sure I'm making myself clear on what I'm asking so you can give a clear answer
@@RedRoseSeptember22 yes I know I said "not just American" because our Health Care system is different from a lot of the world. I know that when it comes to educational system, laws, social hierarchies (some places have literal caste systems) and work environment (some companies can essentially own you if you go to work for them when America actually has lost to protect its citizens (now whether that's enforced or not well..🤷)) but when it comes to Health Care our country seems to be extremely f*****. I used to look up prices for dental and certain Medical Treatments and compare globally and I realize how crazy the US but I do know that when it comes to Women's Healthcare and mental health care it's kind of terrible everywhere
The gore of cutting her open is obviously totally horrifying, but I found the bit where they remove the cushion from behind her back and just shift her down the bed with no warning to be the thing that sets me cringing. IDK y, I think it's suddenness of the movement, her weak questions about what is happening and her inability to do anything about it as they hold her down that really just gets me. She trusts them. They're there to help right up until they decide she's disposable and then they just 'do what has to be done'.
It pisses me off that they didn’t, at the very least, sedate her before cutting her up, too! They absolutely had the means to do so, they couldn’t knocked her out so she didn’t have to be awake and aware for all of it.
I get what you mean. At that point they’ve decided they’re going to kill her to save the baby, so they don’t care about her anymore. Not even enough to let her have such a small comfort as a pillow in her final moments. It’s horrific, but it really works well with the earlier scene with her daughter, and talking about how all those attendants only care about the baby.
As horrible as this scene is it really does showcase the horror of women having a lack of agency when it comes to their own bodies. Despite being set in a fictional setting I suspect it hits as hard as it does is because it's still so heart-breakingly relevant.
And back before modern medicine..... its just terrifying how much of a risk pregnancy was. I dont think other animals have this hard of time in pregnancy and birth
@@MyLittleGreenHairdedMermaid Depends on the animal... Look up the size of Kiwi bird eggs relative to their bodies, or spotted hyenas... But humans definitely have it very hard. Biology really just did itself dirty with this whole system :(
@@MyLittleGreenHairdedMermaid Sadly...the maternal mortality rate in the USA is the worst among industrialized nations. As horrifying as THAT statistic is, the maternal mortality rate triples if the woman is African American.
I have an aunt that back in the 60’s was in a violent marriage, she had such a complicated deliver that it came to choosing between her and the baby. She was fully conscious but still the doctors asked THE FATHER to decide who to save, that mf told the doctor to save the baby ONLY because “he would be the one that could keep carrying the family’s last name”. Luckily the doctor decided yo save my aunt instead.
They used real midwives for the birthing scenes in this series. The most horrific things for me was seeing Aemma hauled down the bed unceremoniously once the decision had been made. She was no longer a woman, a human being, she was no longer valued or treated as such. The fact Viserys didn’t tell her what was going to happen. If faced with the choice Viserys had been given, perhaps she would have made the same choice - to save her child and sacrifice herself. But she wasn’t given the choice. It was the lack of agency over her own body that was the most horrific and that sadly is something women are still facing today. One of the many things I liked about this series was that it deliberately chose to show several birth scenes and each one was different, reflecting the fact that each woman’s experience of childbirth is unique. I would be interested to see your views on the other births in this series - there are 2 in episode 6 and one in episode 10.
Trigger warning re: prioritizing baby over mom, I watched a history documentary about midwifery, giving birth and contraception in medieval Britain and apparently up until the 18th century if a baby got stuck during birth they had no qualms smashing in its head if that meant the mother would live. They showed the instruments and it was pretty chilling.
I mean, I think that makes sense, as horrible as that is, from their perspective. If you can save the woman, then that woman may go on to have many more children, but if she dies, she may have only had that child or no children if the baby died anyway. At that time, even for serfs, having many children was important because the more children you had, the more help you had on your farm, once your children were old enough.
I watched this shortly after almost dying from an ectopic pregnancy. I did not realize what was about to happen. Very traumatic scene. Thank you for the trigger warning.
I’ve had three ectopic pregnancies and this type of thing makes me so aware of the fact I would have died after the first in medieval times. It’s terrifying. Sorry you’ve been through it too.
Spoilers for those who haven't seen the show: There're four birth scenes in this show and 3/4 are horrifying! One C-section, one with a breech birth and the mother kills herself on her own terms rather than die in childbirth, one with a stillbirth and cord wrapped around the baby's neck. The one that was okay, with a relatively easy birth, the mother has to get up seconds after having her baby and start walking before even delivering the placenta and walks all the way across the palace, leaving blood on the floor as she walks. So the birth was okay, but afterwards was awful.
@@lesliesteele3926 as someone who is 7 months ttc with no luck conceiving this honestly made me feel almost grateful I'm not pregnant. I could not imagine if I was 6 months pregnant trying to watch this show, I would be petrified of birth.
@@ninimeggie4771 I know this show is meant to terrify you but I’ve had the best pregnancies and birth. Did it hurt? Yes. Was it manageable? Yes. Would I do it again, yes. Was it worth it? Absolutely. I hope you find success in conceiving.
@@scrapper900 we're still trying, it didn't turn me off of having children. But I was momentarily grateful to not be pregnant while watching, if that makes sense
@@ninimeggie4771 i started watching game of thrones when my oldest was still a baby and there's a scene in the first episode of the 2nd season where a baby believed to be king robert's illegitimate heir is ripped from his mother's arms and murdered. i damn near quit the whole show at that moment because i just could not handle it.
Paddy Considine (King Viserys) said in an interview that Sian Brooke's performance as Queen Aemma was what truly informed how he would play the king. He said Viserys died when his wife did and everything after that was just living with the grief and suffering he thinks he deserves and the weight of knowing the choice he took away from her that ended her life. On many occasions he has gone out of his way to make sure that Sian Brooke is recognised for her incredible work during her short time on the show.
Yes, the changes in him from Aemma's death explains why he let his daughter have 3 bastard kids because Rhaenyra reminds him of his late, beloved wife.
@@amyrat151 I think that is why he chose to ignore the rumours, and to stand firm in his decision to make Rhaenyra his heir and defend her against the slander of the court. He felt guilt after Aemma's death, and I think he also felt truly remorseful about how he had damaged his relationship with his daughter by marrying again, especially considering his choice of bride. I think the casting choice was incredible and Emma D'Arcy looks so much like Sian Brooke. It's uncanny.
Thank you for sharing that. The actor praising his co - star's strength as an actress does make this slightly horrible crime tolerable and I see it in better light.
There are four graphic childbirth scenes in this show, all of which highlight important issues regarding personal autonomy, loss and the physical health of women. All would make good videos to dive further into if you have the time and emotional energy ❤
@@unkaleidoscoped8194I respectfully disagree, she didn’t even have time to deliver her placenta before her baby would have been taken away and she didn’t get any individual bonding time
I was 9 months pregnant watching this scene and it had me SOBBING hysterically… just essentially being brutally murdered by the person who is supposed to love and take care for you. It just broke something inside of me watching her go through the realization of what was going to happen.
Yes indeed was horrible, he was persuaded by the maester and he didn’t wanna do it, so they made him choose between saving one (the baby) or have them both died, according to the show the mother had no hope, she was gonna die regardless because she had some kind of problem (I think she was loosing a lot of blood) but they encourage the king to do the c section in hopes that at least one could be saved, but sadly the baby died too and he could never forget himself from having his wife die in a terrible way
@@carmenmuffler6860 this pregnancy is nothing. The most gruesome is the stillbirth scene in show during last episode. There are 4 REALLY BRUTAL birth scenes in this that’ll make you flinch.
I know, I can’t understand how someone who loves their spouse would make that kind of decision for their spouse and especially not telling them. When she realized what was happening and he just kept going along with it, it made me feel sick. He just wanted to do it in case the baby was a boy. He didn’t even want a kid he wanted an heir. I agree, something inside me broke also.
@@alexherreba People say this like there wasn't a third option. ASK AEMMA WHAT SHE WANTED!!! She could have stiffened her shoulders and said, "save my baby no matter what" or she could have been like "let me have the rest of that milk of the poppy and gl with the next child bride." But they didn't give her that choice. They held her down and murdered her for the cracker jack surprise.
"But he loved her so much and they were reunited after he died" -literal comments others have made. Forget that! If I was aemma I would never forgive him. That was brutal and so cruel.
I agree some people are so ignorant or say “what about the men in the situation they must feel so sad” it’s like they would not feel so sad if they did what they would have done and left the decision up to her.
I think it shows that a lot of men think that they love their wives above all else but still don't view them as full humans, he didn't even consider letting her not be pregnant because he feels that he is owed sex and children. Men would kill their wives by constantly getting them pregnant back then but they literally couldn't even conceive of an alternative, they viewed it as natural and normal to impregnate your wife until it killed her. I'm not saying this to excuse them AT ALL, rather that they mentally dehumanized women so much that it didn't even occur to them that they were the cause of her death
@@gwencere9383 Yes, key word is “think”, but they don’t actually love them. Like you said they saw them more as objects for them to play with especially back then because there entire attitude towards women dehumanized them. So in there eyes they loved their wives but in reality, they really didn’t, you don’t do that to someone you love. And it is no excuse at all, if anything it just makes thing so much worse. And what you said about him not even considering letting her not be pregnant makes sense since she was not really a full human in his eyes.
and it was so unnecessarily cruel too, like they couldn't just numb her up ? knock her out the very least ? give her that milk of the poppy they have in westeros ? fucking insane
I think scenes like these need to be seen. It drives me nuts whenever people are like "well we used to live without these meds/interventions/vaccines and we survived." Like sure, there's a thing to be said against the overmedication we encounter in modern society. But no, people didn't live better without those things. For some reason, a lot of people don't seem to realize that just because the SPECIES survived doesn't mean the individuals did. All it takes for a species to survive is for those who are lucky enough to survive and reproduce to have enough kids to make up for those who didn't. The Shunzhi emperor, for example, died at age 22. He had 14 children, 5 of whom lived long enough to marry. And that's basically how the species survived. For women, the timeline would be less condensed, but for every woman who died in childbirth, there's another who could successfully have 7-10 or even more kids without a hitch, which made up for those who died. Those who died in childbirth didn't necessarily die during their FIRST childbirth either, so they could have very easily survived long enough to have had a few kids already.
Those people just cherry pick what they want to believe 🤡 giving birth is still no walk in the park, a lot of people I follow have given birth throughout the past year and many of them had complications and one almost died, even though she did everything perfectly correct and her partner took amazing care of her, it's just still something crazy to go through.
That's called "survivor bias". They say the same things about poverty also. When you see "inspirational" stories about someone pulling themselves out of poverty by walking 10 miles to and from work in worn-out shoes, and barely eating to make ends meet. For every person who does that, there are thousands who die homeless, cold, and starving. But that single case of someone "making it" makes people think it doesn't happen, or that somehow those others didn't matter, or that those others just didn't do it right.
Yes, I have a debilitating phobia of IVs and needles from complex PTSD from repeated medical trauma as a child. The "most severe case I've ever seen" in one of my therapists opinion. Because of this, trying to have a baby myself would be far more risky than Russian Roulette (15-25% fatality rate as Dr.Jones said,) as I can't seek most medical treatments and don't trust doctors at all to prioritise me over a fetus. I can't even be put under because even the marks left from an IV would make me suicidal. Yet time and time again I'm told "People have been doing it without medical help for years." like it's not a big deal and I should just intentionally get pregnant and give myself a 1/4 chance of dying because that just how it used to be. Funnily enough, I have a 4 sided die, but anytime I offer for these same people to play a game with me where they roll the dice and if it lands on 1 I'll do it, but if it lands on 4 they have to shoot themselves in the head, they don't want to play with me for whatever reason. Almost like when it's their own life on the line, all of a sudden it doesn't matter how many people in the past risked it.
@@TheAwesomes2104 That is beyond crazy that people try to convince you to do something you know would be to your detriment. Good idea about carrying the dice. Thanks for sharing your story.
I feel like a note that was missed by a lot of people I've seen is the parallels the show draws between Viserys in this scene and Daemon during Laena's birth scene and how despite Daemon being portrayed as the evil brother and Viserys being the righteous king, Daemon refuses to make that choice and doesn't really try to stop Laena from making it herself, whereas Viserys takes all of Aemma's agency away in a time when he should have been advocating for her.
And Damon was actually was on hand when Laena gave birth and sympathizing with her pain and trouble while Viserys was too busy at the tourney. In the books Laena had a stillbirth and was suffering from birth fever, she tried to go to Vhagar to ride her one last time but died on the way there. Damon carried her body back to her bed.
Yeah, they worked *so hard* to leave no question what Viserys did was wrong. Even the *bad brother* wasn't down to do something that awful to someone he'd married. I can't believe there is anyone who watched that show and didn't take from that situation that it was a terrible thing to do.
As if Daemon is a saint lol He literaly murdered Rhea Royce, his first wife, with a stone. But wow so praising of him to at least question Laena's fate...
@@MissKashira Good for Daemon for doing the bare minimum? Also, he still murdered Rhea Royce in cold blood and never regreted it. So both brothers are wife killers.
@@Ashbrash1998 Yeah and in the book Viserys doesn't do a Tourney in the middle of Aemma's birth so what? Both book and show are different, don't you dare bring the book on this.
And yet there is a disturbing trend on the Mommy blogs encouraging people to have "free Birth" or totally medically unattended childbirth. Every time I read about it, I get chills down my spine.
I don't agree with that. Yeah it would be nice not to have to pay a medical fee but if I ever have children I want doctors present just in case there are difficulties with either me or my babies.
My friend had birth at home. Even through sugar-coding, from what they said, it was horrifying and they had to go to hospital right after anyway. Technically before the end of the birth :(. And they diligently prepared for it for months!
Tooooo much stuff can happen to the BABY after birth, not breathing, bleeding, birth injury, WHY would you not want to be in a medical facility??? I would rather err on the side of caution.@@jozob
At a baby shower for my supervisor, we (her crew) put together a momma care pack that was all lotions, facial masks, fuzzy socks and treats we knew she liked “because everyone else would be getting things for the baby.” It’s always good to remember a baby can’t happen (outside of a lab) without a momma and she needs to be cared for every step of the way!
Not even inside of a lab. It is possible to fertilize an egg, but the survival of an embryo for more than 20 days outside of a womb is not yet possible, so a baby cannot happen without a human with a functional uterus.
thats very kind of you ! the only things I got for me after birthing my son was a nursing bra and shirts when my mom and mother in-law bought me clothes. I had no helpful after birth gifts . so when my sister-in-law was close to her due date I sent her a after care kit.
Yes! I always do this. Easy grab & go filling snacks for mom, a nice body lotion, postpartum pads, soft blanket or nice socks, some treats, and then usually a gift card for skip/door dash/Uber eats.
I always liked the ancient Spartan view of childbirth and dying in it. Women were given (according to my current limited understanding of the historical accounts) full honors equal to a state military hero’s funeral if they died in childbirth, because it was well understood that death was common and children were the hope for the future. The only other “acceptable” ways to die were in battle or from old age after all the battles were over.
In islam , we have the concept of shahid , who is a martyr , and the man who died while battle is a martyr alongside the woman who died in childbirth. It is one of the reasons I am not as scared of being pregnant in the furture
@@rxg9er In the Asatru faith, women who die honorably, such as in childbirth, go to Folkvangr, realm of Freya. Freya also gets the first choice of half of those who fall in battle, and the half she does not choose go to Odin in Valhalla to train and feast in preparation to fight in the never-ending battle
The actress who played the Queen deserves an award for the scene. Her screams in the show were chilling. Glad you muted the audio because I don't think I can hear it again.
The scene is actually stunning even though its violent. How they said "a childbirth is our battlefield" and during childbirth switched between the birth scene and a vulva shaped fight arena... Stellar. The whole series was amazing but I actually think this scene is one of my favourites because of how many layers it has... Even if it was traumatizing
This scene trully is stunning and i am really glad someone is finally showing birth for what it is, not as a sitcom punchline. I had to appreciate how well it was done, even though it honestly re-traumatised me. I was in a similar situation to Aemma when giving birth and I am really grateful for modern medicine, even then it was awful to experience. What I have to point out in the performance, what really made a difference from other birth scenes on TV and made it deeply real, was how they showed her fear when she realised something was wrong. The loss of control, her vulnerability and panic, it struck a deep memory in me and I had to stop the show and take a break before finishing the episode. Absolutely amazing work they did here
@@MeeshT Yeah, the symbolism of the shape of the jousting/fighting arena is really strong but also entirely coincidental. That shape is just the standard classic shape of a jousting arena. But it, coincidentally, does look vaguely like vulva as well.
@@AnxietyRat I doubt that by the amount of planning and thinking that goes into every single almost invisible stitching of every dress the characters wear, I'm pretty sure they were aware of the vulva shape and chose it on purpose. I mean, it's a fantasy world - no need for historic accuracy when it comes to architecture. Also most films about medieval times have tournaments on a grass field with a more rectangular shaped jousting grounds. Even in GoT the jousting in first season was done in a rectangular arena
@@phoebeel people who know waaay more about jousting than I do have said that that is the classic shape. So it was most likely coincidental that that was the shape of the arena. I think some people have brought it up with the producers or showrunners or something as well and I think they said that it was coincidental. But I could be wrong about that.
The male "doctor" is a maester. They're sort of a cross between early medieval monks and modern scientists. They're hoarders of knowledge. They're headquarters is the Citadel, which is basically the Library of Alexandria turned up to 11. It doubles as a university of sorts where men (no women) from all over the Seven Kingdoms study all sorts of subjects. Once they master a subject they forge a ring that becomes part of a chain they'll wear once they become a full maester. At that point they're sent out to serve one of the lords and ladies of the realm as advisor. The Grand Maester is sent to advise the King. Unfortunately, this one is pretty crap in the fields of medical science. Either that, or he's just very conservative, and relies way too much on older and sometimes outdated methods. Or he's trying to kill the King, but that's a whole other rabbit hole. This is particularly obvious in the way he treats Viserys' lepracy. He prefers to leech his wounds. Fortunately for the King (less so the dragons) he's eventually replaced, and the new Grand Maester makes poultices that keeps him alive for another 20 years.
Yeah, I don't think that it's that the old maester is conservative. I just think he hasn't been as hungry for knowledge like most maesters are and so has not updated his knowledge on things since he left the place they all learn... So he's just using super duper outdated knowledge. And that becomes very apparent when a new maester comes in to kind of train under him and eventually replaces him and allows the king to live much much longer with his newer practices... But yeah, this maester sucks, for sure.
There's a very strong theory that the maesters have been anti dragon all along and secretly conspired in the downfall of the house of the dragon for centuries until the Targaryens were finally overthrown
I remember when giving birth to my daughter, it took 4 hours. I had a natural birth, the first 2 hours she didn't want to come out, no matter how hard I tried, but eventually after 2 more hours she was born at 5am. My husband was with me the whole time, he help my hand, whispered words of encouragement and cried when I cried at the exact same time during the final push when we heard her first cry. I'm not gonna lie, this scene had both of us crying. While I was pregnant I remember having nightmares were I didn't make it, but our little girl lived, then my husband had a nightmare where both our daughter and me didn't make it. We are okay now, last month our toddler just turned 5 years old. She's the most energetic and talkative girl you'd even meet.
@Mama Doctor Jones honestly it doesn't get worse then this. This was incredibly hard to watch to the point my mom who was excited for the show decided that it wasn't worth watching
@@wyldcardsam I found one of the later birth scenes even harder to watch... I thought the first episode was the worst, but no, for me the last birth scene is worse.
I would love to see your reaction to the other birth scenes in the show. The breech, the miscarriage and the “normal” birth where she is forced to walk and attend to the Queen as she still delivering the placenta and she’s bleeding on the floor.
here's the deal - nobody would actually do that, historically. birth was a very afab space, and so was exempt from some of the amab panopticon abuse that permeated other interactions.
@@neepsnorpington historical means nothing in this instance. People mistake fantasy for mid evil. No. This is a different world completely. Sorry I just had to point that out
Rhaenyra was not forced to walk to Queen Alicent. The Queen demanded to see Rhaenyra's baby as soon as the boy was born; and Rhaenyra did not want to let her son go into Alicent's hands alone.
I remember watching this and thinking "I can't wait til MDJ reviews this!" The real horror for me was Queen Aemma trusted every person in that room and it was met with brutality and lack of respect for her life.
I cried so much watching this scene… most women would choose to give their lives to save the child’s one if they would die anyway but not telling her was what for me was the most horrible part: she was already in so much pain, scared, tired and suddenly she doesn’t even know why they handle her like livestock, restrained her and when she realizes the look of pure panic and betrayal in her face broke my heart… what a horrible way to die
What makes it worse for me is that she JUST told him that she was done getting pregnant because she couldn't bear to bury anymore of her children. Then for her to be butchered and pleading with her "husband" over and over that "they're getting the babe out." She must have thought he was punishing her for bot wanting to get pregnant again and I fully 100% believe his leprosy was a curse from her
And it’s sad women have been groomed into romanticizing their own martyrdom and self sacrifice like that. You exist already and are conscious and have goals and know what you would be missing and have people who know and love you. Not the baby. You are not obligated to sacrifice yourself for a baby. That is not noble. You are not a vessel. You deserve your life. Makes me so mad women are groomed into that from the time we are babies ourselves. Our lives have value. We are more than our wombs.
Her daughter Rhaenyra has her own babies further in the episodes. Would love to see your take on her labors as well. Episode 6 for the postpartum and episode 10 as she goes into premature labor.
You talked about the birthing process being different for royalty briefly and it reminded me of the birthing scene in Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette(2006). There's a depiction of an entire room filled with members of the court all just watching her give birth and apparently that was completely accurate. I read that it's estimated almost 200 people tried to pack into her birthing chamber!
Yes! This was done not only as a privilege for those favored by the royal family, but also served as proof that the queen gave birth and didn’t sneak in a different baby and present it as royalty.
Yes. I can't remember if it was her or another royal mother, but SO many people crammed into the birth chamber and the labor lasted so long that the oxygen levels depleted and the mother passed out and nearly died. One of the ladies in waiting told off the court physicians and the midwives and opened up the windows... letting cold air but more importantly, fresh air in. Mom to be pinked up and the baby was born healthy.
They did that in England, too, right up until Queen Victoria looked up in the middle of her first labor and saw a bunch of men watching her. She put a stop to that practice on the spot.
Love your editor 😂 Yes, the "Maester" is basically the "Game of Thrones/House of Dragon" equivalent of a doctor. He was called after the complications started. Up until that point, it was just her and the midwives.
They are very learned men, in general. Maesters have different areas of study that they have mastered, so not everyone of them is skilled or knowledgeable about child birth. However, a maester who serves at any castle in Westeros would have to be in order to take care of the Lady of the castle should he need to do so.
My epidural wore off during my cesarean and I was tied to the table, the anesthesiologist was very busy watching my blood pressure climb higher and higher and it was about 5 minutes before I could get anyone’s attention to let them know that *pain* I had a hard time watching this scene as well.
Aemma reminded me a little of Catherine of Aragon. She had six documented pregnancies and only two of those were definitely live births, Henry Duke of Cornwall and Mary I. For most people at the time, all of her accomplishments and intelligence didn't count for anything because she couldn't have a son.
@@hez5160 A lot of people compare The Dance of Dragons to The Anarchy and Byzantine history, which is I believe is correct but there's also some influence from Tudor history and fiction.
My husband watched the episode about an hour before I did and was able to give me a trigger warning - thank goodness. It would have sent me to a terrible place for quite awhile… and yet knowing that, I still watched and could appreciate the truth they tried to portray about pregnancy and childbirth in that time. It wasn’t pretty, it wasn’t a beautiful natural thing with lovely music - and when things went sideways, a woman had pretty much no say in saving her own life.
This scene was absolutely horrific to watch BUT with all the shit going down with reproductive rights in the US I'm so glad they included this and all the other birth scenes in all their graphic detail (SPOILER: there is also a very graphic stillbirth at the end of the season and another birth mid season where the mother and baby die). It's important to show that pregnancy and childbirth don't always end with health and happiness, even in modern day, and pregnancy and childbirth aren't something that should be forced on anyone!
I agree. The people who claim to value all life seem to not care about the lives of the women and girls who they want to force to go through pregnancy. I heard a story about a ten year old girl who was raped and got pregnant and because of the anti abortion laws her family had to take her to another state to get an abortion because they would not even make an exception for a child. (my brother told me about this so I have no source unfortunately)
@@Donika691 I've heard similar stories, so tragic 😔 Very glad to live in Australia where abortion is legal in every state (there are varying laws, regulations and accessibility in each state though, it's not a perfect system but leaps and bounds ahead of the US!).
@@laurashepherd2479 what's weird is that abortion was legal (not always of course but recently) and then there was that whole thing where they overturned that and made it illegal again. I was so baffled at how that could happen it's like they are legit trying to reverse all our progress and take us back to the dark ages. It's like the saying one step forward, two steps back.
@@Donika691 not to be disrespectful but can you get pregnant at 10 (I was gonna google it and decided i didn’t wanna be on that list 😂) the youngest recorded birth was five but she had Precocious puberty (early on set) which is very rare, I know girls usually start puberty at around 8 but i didn’t know you could get pregnant until you started your period (not trying to be disrespectful genuinely curious)
@@Danheron2 You can get pregnant whenever you start ovulating, which by my 'research' (a light googling) happens a year or two after you start puberty, so with your age of 8 you posited YES you'd be right on track for pregnancy at ten. Puberty and menstrual cycle onset differ person to person but the age has dropped (worryingly) over time to my knowledge. And just so you know, you CAN get pregnant before your first period (period in this case specifically referring to the bleeding phase of menses) because you have your first ovulation before that.
As an archaeologist I have been on a dig where they found over 3000 bodies of children (from miscarriages/abortions to small infants) buried in a monastary from the 1700's. They filled the field in a few years, the monastery was right next to the regional hospital. They had all kinds of illnesses. We don't know what happened to the mothers, but it is a possibility most of them died. Those children, as they were too young to be baptized, or never got to live, were buried on holy grounds so they could be closer to God. The births in HOTD are a great representation of what was going on back then.
As a labor and delivery nurse I love the way that you articulate your stance on reproductive choice. I remember the first time that I supported a family through still-birth and provided post-mortem care to a 25ish week fetus and I had a simultaneous recognition of this fetus as a complete person and an unshakable resolution in my belief that no one should be forced to go through birth unwillingly.
Loved seeing a gyno's reaction to this! Ive never had babies and never wanted babies but even I was squirming and holding myself like "NOOOOOOOOO!". This scene was brutal and They didnt even tell her what they were going to do. It was like "Oh, surprise!". I would have fought and reacted the same. It kinda just hits me because my brother and I were both c-section babies. I was 2 weeks late and mum had to be induced. She was just too narrow for me to fit through. 16 hours later I was finally cut out. My brother, who is 2 years younger than me, was a bit smaller, but he too couldnt fit through and he had to be cut out. Im just so glad that c-sections areant so risky like they were way back when. I love my mum and my brother
Same, I didn't want to come out, and didn't turn properly, so I was born by c section. Then my brother nearly 2y after me was c section too. Little kids are cute enough, I'm close with my cousin and her 4 kids, especially the youngest, the 18 month old. But as I've grown older I don't think I even want to have my own, I don't think I could do it every single day for years, and the more I learn about pregnancy, birth, post birth, the more it terrifies me. I saw this episode and couldn't continue with watching it's just so horrific 😭
The fact that they didn't even give the queen any say in the matter was the most horrific part to me. Yet another instance of a woman's bodily autonomy being ripped away from them.
@@MamaDoctorJones ye not even explaining it to her is just horrible. I do find myself a bit conflicted with actually giving her a choice in this situation. I am normally quite firmly im the pro-choice camp but when the baby is ready to be born and the mother is basically guaranteed to die either way is it really right to not save the baby even against the mother's wishes?
@@marlowemayhem3230 it's utilitarian. How can we save the most lives. If the choice is "save baby but mother died" or "do nothing and they both die" It's not a good choice but it's arguable that there is only one moral choice. It's like the trolley problem. Someone is going to die no matter what we do, but we can control how many (of course my answer to that is 'find the person who keeps tying people to trolley tracks and make them stop.)
@GoldenMechaTiger If you are in the process of dying from exhaustion but my little child needs a colon transplant, do I get to cut yours out of you - no anaethetic and raw - without your permission? Of course not. Dying person gets to choose if they are willing to risk dying an even more painful, violent death for someone else's possible benefit. We don't get to enhance their suffering without their agreement. That is immoral.
Wow. That was definitely traumatic and triggering. Thank you for the warning. I did watch through and had mostly the same reactions as you did. I had an emergency c-section and actually lost so much blood that they had my husband bring in our pastor because they told him I wouldn't survive. (I had other underlying complications. I had a heart attack at 22 weeks and lost my daughter's twin.) I won't go into what I felt because it truly is unbelievable. But I will say that at least my husband and doctors tended to both of us the entire time and I did hear him say to save me if it came to that. (I was actually very mad at him for that after my uterus ruptured and I had an emergency hysterectomy 5 months later because I would never be able to carry another baby. Obviously had I died when my daughter was born, I wouldn't have carried any more babies then either. But....hormones. He understood.) I have this show on my watch list but was on the fence about actually watching it. After seeing this, traumatic as it was, I'm very curious to see what happens. I can imagine this put more of a strain on the relationship or lack thereof between the king and his daughter. As always, thank you for the video! Wishing you and your family and very Happy New Year!!
No, don’t watch it if you’re not inclined to. These shows nowadays try to draw you in with an interesting storyline and then leave you traumatized with the violence and gore. It’s really not worth it.
If you find it triggering I recommend skipping through the birth scenes as there is another one that is also extremely brutal. Other than that, the show was quite interesting and had lots of political intrigue and interesting family dynamics.
This scene was hard to watch, but I think it did a good job setting the stakes for the rest of the season. Whenever you see a character is pregnant, or being encouraged to marry in order to produce heirs, you know how badly it might end
I was about 35 weeks pregnant with a breech baby when I watched this (watched it the night it aired so I didn't have any warning). I don't know how I made it through the whole scene. I am definitely grateful for todays medicine and that I had a smooth c-section and a fast and easy recovery and baby and I are healthy.
My grandfather was forced to make a choice between his first born and his wife. He chose his wife. It's talked about very little in our family. She then had three more children after words with no simmular problems. My grandmother was 1 inch shy of being a little person and the first baby was over 10 lbs. The Doctor she had been seeing left state and never came back one week befor she gave birth. He new it would be impossible to birth the baby safely. That was apporoxametly early 1940s.
I saw a few articles about how people didn't like the birth scenes on HOTD. I felt like they were very realistic in their traumatic and at times brutal nature. Very relatable even as a modern woman who had a failed induction, 2 c sections and 2 pregnancies. Also as a woman who is aware of the different experiences women have with pregnancy and labor all over the world. Pregnancy, labor and postpartum are not always these picturesque fairytales we grow up imagining.
I don't remember all the details, but in historical Europe, a man snuck in to watch a birth through the window- he was a doctor, and childbirth was so hidden from men he had no true idea how it went. They caught him, and he was executed. When Doc Jones says that men were not included in childbirth , she means it!!
That's the history of our world, but game of thrones is not our world (just inspired/based on) so how much men are involved or not involved could be different.
What really hit me the hardest with this scene is the similarity to the stories some women tell TODAY about being given csections without their consent and some tragically without anesthesia. Medicine can still be so violent towards women, and it's wounding.
I could actually feel the scalpel cut into my abdomen when I was giving birth to my youngest . Luckily I had my tubes tied afterwards and I said to my partner, " If you want a boy , don't count on me!" 2 girls and 4 losses , I was done with pregnancy!
As someone whose father especially wanted to have a son. And had a girl -me in the 70’s. Growing up knowing this has destroyed me. A healthy baby is a miracle and should be celebrated no matter what the gender 🎉
I personally loved this show because of how much of it is about female autonomy and motherhood. The birth scenes however were a bit traumatising. I genuinely had a nightmare or two and my poor husband couldn’t help but remember our baby’s birth during those scenes 😅
A scene in The Handmaid's Tale I found to be even more horrible, because it's supposed to be in the present. June is at the birth of another handmaid who winds up needing a c section. We get to see the shadow through a screen of them taking the baby out, then just leaving the mother to die ("she did her duty"). They made NO attempt to save her! In Medieval times, they just didn't have the technology, but in present times, NO excuses. The idea of a king back then choosing to save the child instead of the mother rings true though. They were desperate in some cases (Henry VIII) to have sons because they thought a woman couldn't/shouldn't rule. Henry VIII almost did this with Jane Seymour.
The problem with handmaid's tale is that the handmaids are women condemned that are serving "their sentence for redemption" e.i. giving birth. The situation you described is similar to a scene in Margaret Atwood's sequel, The Testaments. In that the handmaid at least gets a funeral
I mean I agree but also it definitely depends on if the husband or whoever actually loves the mother. Like if you only want a son and didn’t care about the women, then they left the girl to die. But since Henry truly loved Jane Seymour (even if it was just because of Edward), he tried to save her, and mourned her for two years before Anna even showed up.
here in north america pre colonization we (indigenous peoples) were able to perform successful caesareans with very low maternal and fetal mortality rate, much lower than it is with current medicine (even so, c sections were extremely rare back then with our traditional methods). so it being medieval times isn't much of an excuse at that 😔
What I didn't get about this scene was why as Handmaids were their one valuable commodity. The thing other countries were considering to overlook all the human rights violations to trade for. And up until that scene they highly prioritized keeping them alive. Then for no reason with all our modern science they made no effort not to save this one. I'd wish there had been some sort of explanation to explain this change in policy as it was the policy that had kept the main characters alive for so many seasons despite all the rule breaking. Like a quick mention that the procedure would make her infertile so there was no point in stopping the bleeding and closing her back up. Just anything to explain that one off.
I delivered my first child, a stillborn daughter, about 2-3 months before this aired, via a last minute C-section. It was not lost on my husband and I how lucky we were that I made it home safely with him, even though our daughter did not. Friends invited me over to watch this premiere. It made me ill. I cried so much that night.
Fun and slightly related fact that may help lighten the mood, in Africa before colonization, midwives knew how to perform C-sections relatively safely! The mother would be sedated with lots of banana wine, the tools would be sterilized with heat, and the survival rate was much higher than their European counterparts.
I appreciate you showing this and commentating on a historical birth and what childbirth used to be and how it's paralleling with the current healthcare changes in the US. I haven't seen the show, but I can only imagine how difficult that whole scene would be to watch. By the way, I would love to see you react to see you react to Season 6 Episode 7 of The Good Doctor, where there is a delivery of sextuplets. And it has a happy ending :)
This is not a truly "historical birth"; this story takes place on a world that is not our own; it's a fantasy that resembles our own Earth but is not the same place - think of medieval Europe with dragons ruled by a dynasty from a magical Atlantis-like place. There are similarities, but Westeros is not England, France or Spain...
here's the thing, many Medieval historians have come out and stated this is not how things went down int he Medieval period. Midwives had tools to sacrifice the baby in order to save the mother. Babies only had a 50% chance of surviving to adulthood and the mother, if saved, could go on to have more children, so she was the priority. It would make no sense to kill a woman on the 50% chance a baby would be a boy and the additonal 50% chance that child would live. Probably lower given a difficult birth. They only time these surgeries were performed was when the mother was dead or clearly drawing her last breaths as a last ditch effort. It's slightly later in the Renaissance period, but Catherine de' Medici had a breach birth of twins. They terminated one of the babies and broke both her legs to get them out of her because she was the priority. The other baby didn't survive either. If they are making a commentary on our current situation with lack of access to reproductive health, that is fine, but claiming this is a reflection of actual Medieval history and practices is incorrect.
@@ChaiChabeela I can believe that that was typically the case. But I also find this scenario very believable as well. A very patriarchal society where the king's word goes, his wife is carrying a longed-for heir, and their equivalent of a scholar of medicine has persuaded him that she will die regardless? Yeah, I can see him opting to perform the C-section to try to save the baby. If it had been a different woman with a different baby, the option probably wouldn't have even been presented. And if they told him she would likely still survive the birth, he may have chosen differently. But it was the perfect storm that led him to a horrible decision, and I find if pretty believable, regardless of whether it would have been the normal thing in real-life history. I'm not sure that it's even the normal thing in Westeros, the way it's presented here. They wouldn't have called out the Maester for just anyone. It only happened because of the very specific circumstance of who was involved.
@Shaye M That would likely have been the case if they weren't royalty and this wasn't his last chance for a male heir. As MDJ says there wouldn't normally be men allowed in but *because* they're royalty the king and the "doctor"/maester are there and calling the shots. And plenty of women still died horribly in childbirth even if not under these exact circumstances. (Also while it is based on medieval times & MDJ talks about medieval stats this is a fantasy world where they may prioritize differently).
You think that's horrific; what about that scary birth scene in Kenneth Branagh's version of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein? That gave me a little knot in my stomach.
As gruesome/horrible/incredibly scary the scene was (I only watched your edited version and I still got a stomachache so I'm definitely not watching the original one), I loved the investigation and commitment you always put in your videos. It's not just a reaction-type of video from an obgyn, but an actual analysis and I just love that about your channel. Thanks for this, Doc! Very inspirational!
This birthing scene was hard to watch, but I am still glad they made it. It adds something valuable to the show and I think it is nice to see how the characters talk about it after the fact.
Yes I live in the US and anti abortion laws coming back is horrible. Not having access to safe abortion is going to hurt so many women and girls. It's like for all their talk of valuing "all" life they don't seem to care about the women and girls who are the ones going through the pregnancies.
@@Donika691 they're just pro-birthers at the expense of anyone involved. The vast majority of the time they do nothing to help those babies once they're out in the world.
@@XSemperIdem5 Yeah, they say it's cruel to have an abortion, but do they care about the many children already out there in the world or all the women and girls hurt by being forced to have pregnancies? I haven't seen evidence that they care about any of them.
@@stayathomemarine not all pregnancies even come to term successfully so at the end it could be a miscarriage, both mom and baby could die, or a woman could be forced to give birth to an already dead baby or one that has no chance of survival. Women have had their lives put at risk because doctors refused to provide a medically necessary abortion too.
This reminds me of a scene in Lords and Ladies by Terry Pratchett that I always felt captured the situation so well without being graphic. Granny Weatherwax, the local witch, is called in to help the midwife after a pregnant woman was kicked by a cow. It is determined that the mother or baby or both will die if something isn't done. The midwife asks if they should put it to the husband and Granny asks " “You don’t like him? You think he’s a bad man?” “No!”. “Then what’s he ever done to me, that I should hurt him so?” She sends the midwife out to comfort the father & in the end she determines to save the mother as the baby is already hurt from the injury and trying further would kill the mother. It always stuck with me and captured the complexity and tragedy of the situation without it turning into possibly exploitative & graphic territory.
I was 34 weeks too when I watched. We had to pause the scene as I couldn't stop crying and shaking for 30 minutes. I'm watching the reaction video while breastfeeding and even though the sound of her screams are cut, I still cry.
I spent time in a C.A. country, in a maternity ward, where a full third of the babies had not been named. The women seemed resigned that this is just how it was, and six months later, I have wondered how many of those babies are still alive.
A fifth to a third . Up to one year. But then comes walking, fire, hot water , dirty water, cholera, measles, tetanus, rabies - Yes, still up to 75 000 people DIE of rabies , very often children left to play on the streets - because they play with the puppies. And there is not only the "agressive form" the whole foaming is a very very late sign of the illness when the hoast is already dieing so the virus tries go get into another hoast - or asmamy as possible ) but also the "paralytic" form of rabies. Go look it up on YT. They often don't even have saline or Benzodiazepines ot Morpine.
@krissflavored8990 uh yeah if you live in a BS capitalism ruled country. Most 3rd world countries governments don't give a shit about new babies and they don't get any sort of birth certificate or identification anyway. Only those who can afford it get that done.
That's what I was reminded of as well (though I forgot it was in Bridgerton). The doctor's face when he is told to ask the woman, like 'what does SHE have to do with this?'
This scene was both horrific and poetic. Especially with how they spliced it with the tourney scenes. It made my c section scar tingle and I immediately went to a friend who had had a traumatic c section to pre-warn them so they could prepare themselves.
I had an "emergency" c section last March (I had been in the hospital for a month, they told me in the morning I had developed eclampsia, had the surgery done around dinner time, so it wasn't like 911 right effing now), and watched this during my maternity leave. "I'm scared" is what a said verbatim to my fiancé as they started the surgery. I found this scene traumatizing AF
MDJ, it might make you feel a little bit better to know that in a later episode, the king’s brother is faced with a similar choice, and refuses to let them kill his wife. There are actually 4 birth/labor scenes in this series. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the fourth one, where Rhaenyra has a stillborn (I think that’s the correct terminology for what they show).
3:30 Book Lore: It was not uncommon for the royal family's stillbirths to be born with dragon features (scales, wings, tail). The reason for this is that their ancestors did magic powered DNA mixing (in fact the dragons themselves are some kind of magically made firewurm/winged reptile mix) on themselves so they could control dragons. It is unclear if those stillborn with dragon features look like they do because it is a birth defect or if all/some royal fetuses goes through a dragon stage in the womb but those vestigial characteristic go away if they are carried to term and not born premature.
Yes, but not everything is flowers and rainbows. Sometimes it happens that the anesthesia doesnt work and the doctor just... continue. The mother will survive, but she will go through exactly the horror and pain that Aemma went through.
Thank you for watching this and reacting. The scene makes me tear up every time and I wasn’t sure if it was sensationalized, or “torture porn”, or really had a point. I feel seen with your reaction and also better knowing now that it was more or less accurate and the reason why they did the scene that way was in part to make it timely.
I had an unplanned caesarean 2,5 years ago because the baby (that was sunny side up) wouldn't fit through my pelvis after I pushed. When I saw this scène I was so glad we can have caesareans these days without dying.
I feel like some scenes like this, and in the last video, hit different now that I've had my first baby. It was an insanely easy labor and delivery process and a minimally complicated pregnancy. For which I am incredibly grateful. It's an incredibly poignant reminder that it could have been so much different for both of us very easily. It hurts my mom heart and it's why I hold my now toddler so close.
I want to, again, bring up the series Outlander to react to! In season two, the main character Claire experiences a (stress-induced) miscarriage in the 1740s. The show depicts all her stages of grief so well! At this point in the show, she has to deal with all of this alone because her partner is in prison. Later in the show she is pregnant for the second time and travels back to her time (around 1950) for the birth (which at that time we believe is a permanent decision). She goes into labour but is unwillingly sedated by a male doctor which gives her anxiety that she will lose this baby, too. It’s honestly heartbreaking but also so important and I always wondered if this sedation was a realistic or standard practice back then… or if there was a medical indication for that.
My grandma said they knocked her out when she went into labor in the 60s. She said it was fine with her because it was so painful. She had four vaginal deliveries, no c sections.
Look up "twilight sleep" on wikipedia. Sedation and medically induced amnesia was indeed a popular thing back then. It was still offered in some places up to the 1970s!
I had to take 2 months off after watching the first episode… it was just too brutal: thank you for reacting to this scene/episode and educating us! love your videos!!
Follow-up: I also want your takes re: Laena and Rhaenyra's births as well. It's a super interesting through line in the show. In general I think the show does a really good job of establishing the body horror of being a woman in that society.
Me -> I'm glad it was a boy because if it had been a girl she would have been treated horribly by a father who resents her for killing his wife and not even having a pen¡s.. MDJ -> The baby dies too. Me -> Well sh¡t.
Viserys actually loved Rhaenyra in the book lore so they really failed problematizing his relationship with his daughter, he would never resent the child for something HE DID to Aemma. He's not that shitty.
Visery's adored his daughter and wife but in the world of the seven kingdoms he did need an heir. Did you watch the show? He chooses Ryaenyra to be his Heir anyway, He isn't the villain, but lost with grief at the end.
I was wondering if you would watch this! And that man talking to the king is called the Grand Maester aka the head doctor. In that world every wealthy Lord has their own Maester, basically the only people who go to college in that world. And the Royal Family has the Grand Maester
My grandma was 16 when she married my grandpa (19), they were poor farmers from Lake of the Ozark’s, he had just returned from the Korean War. With the money he got from being a soldier they moved “to town” and he got a job with the electric company. My great grandma only agreed to the marriage if they would wait till my grandma was 20 before becoming pregnant. My great aunt almost died during childbirth, and the baby wasn’t expected to live, thankfully they both recovered, and she went on to have 2 more healthy pregnancies, births, and children. Grandma dropped out of school to help work the farm when all the boys/men went to war. She graduated high school after marriage, grandpa quickly moved up in the electric company, and they bought the house my daddy was brought home to just before grandma turned 20. She had 3 healthy pregnancies, and 3 healthy boys. She was the first female in her family to deliver in a hospital, grandpa kept his promise. I remember the smile on both their faces at their 60th wedding anniversary party, they were the same smiles from their wedding picture, taken “professionally” a few days after their wedding at great grandpa’s farm. That picture hung in their house, and every house I lived in growing up. Now I have both hanging in my house.
yaaay thank you for reacting to it! I just listened to the video because oh boy, I'm still not over it, but now we all have our questions answered. Poor queen Aemma
I am a nursery nurse and help when the babies are delivered, but I very much thank you for not including the audio for the c-section portion. Those are the sounds you never forget.
This just popped up on my feed And I immediately had to watch it. I got so emotional watching the birth scene again. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for what you do as an OB/GYN. You are so appreciated and make such a huge difference! Not a mom yet, but your content helps me understand and prepare myself for when I do decide to make that leap
My baby girl died in her sleep at 6 days old two months ago I'd been watching this show during my pregnancy and couldn't imagine the pain of losing a child or your life in labor but it still bothered me so much. Now I know that pain myself and seeing this clip was even more horrifying
that wasnt a C section that was a I section 🤦♀ To clarify C section is called C because of the cut the do bellow the stomach to avoid the vital organ, this mothef..ckers cut the woman in half
Thank you for your Trigger Warning - I had traumatic births ( placenta accreta both deliveries) My poor husband almost had to raise our girls alone. Thank God for excellent emergency care and the blood bank! That was 39 and 37 years ago and I don’t need to see Triggers this late at night! Thanks again!! …. But maybe in the daylight tomorrow…so curious ….
I think the overturn of Roe vs Wade has made this scene even more terrifying. King Viserys was so set on having a son and his wife was in pain. Its eerie how reveleant it is now with the current situation in America and that so many people value the life of a baby over the mother. Pregnancy and labor is a battlefield that is going to see an increase in loss of life.
Plus the maester told him he could either try to save one or lose both. A comment above mentioned that in the times GoT was based on they had techniques to essentially kill the baby to save the mother. Visarys wasn't given that option and the maester could have straight up lied to him knowing in the heat of it all he would agree to this gruesome c-section procedure.
For some reason, your reaction made me cry even though I watched this scene with dry eyes the first time around. Violence is so normalized in tv shows these days that I didn't really process how truly horrific this scene was. I'm currently 6mos pregnant and watching this reaction paired with this scene really hit a soft spot :( Also... there are a few more very traumatic birth scenes in this show that I'd love to see if you explored, namely Rhaenyra's stillbirth.
Episode 6 of House of the Dragon has two birth scenes in it. One of them has the father offered the same choice and it goes... differently, but not really better.
You should do videos on the other House of the Dragon labour and delivery scenes as well. They are all hard to watch but you I have no doubt you can provide important educational commentary from all of them.
MDJ, thank you so much for falling on the sword and watching this. I admit I wondered whether it was similar to anything that actually happened in medieval times here. I've read about similar happening in texts about the Medieval period, but it's great to hear an authority on it. Incidentally, one interesting thing to note is that in the funeral scene, it was Viserys' (the father/king)'s responsibility to tell the dragon to burn the funeral pyre (by calling out 'Dracarys' to instruct the dragon to set fire to the pyre), and he couldn't even do that. His daughter had to step in and do it. After he instructed the Maester to (basically) kill his wife for the sake of the son he was absolutely sure would be his salvation, he couldn't even 'man up' and direct their funerary rites. He's a morally bereft fool and a TERRIBLE king. Note - with respect to the dude with the knife - he's a Maester. Maesters are sort of medieval 'doctors' who also do some pharmacology, alchemy, science, astrology, astronomy, and almost voodoo. They all study in one place and are very highly regarded (generally). The women in there with the odd hats on are septas, who are like nuns, but also act as midwives, governesses and nurses. They do not, however, prepare the deceased for their funerary rites (that's done by the Silent Sisters). Anyway, I hope this helps explain a little of the people in the room to those not familiar with the world.
Huge GOT fan. Watched it the night it aired. I had just found out a few weeks before it aired that I was pregnant (first time), and I was full on sobbing. It only solidified the labor anxiety I'd already been feeling. Doing much better now, but there needs to be some trigger warnings in shows before these scenes.
Medicine had improved so much since even I was born in the early 80's! Imagine the care you're going to get now! It'll be ok. Update us on the baby's name.
I watched this without knowing what to expect whilst cuddling my 4 week old… my poor husband really struggled too as I’d had a C-section and it really bought back those feelings of hopelessness for him.
It is adorable watching MDJ take the historical aspects of this so seriously. Like, this series also features people riding dragons like horses, not to mention a future zombie apocalypse, so men being present at a birth is the least of her worries in terms of historical accuracy 🤣
I thought that whole scene, as violent, terrible, heartbreaking, and terrifying as it was, was SO WELL DONE with the flip flopping between the jousting and fighting, and the labor room. One of the few scenes of gore I have ever witnessed in media where I was clenching my teeth, my fists, and squinting was watching that woman be eviscerated without so much as a word, for a kid who doesn't even live.
We watched the whole season, and bless him…my husband somewhat understands why I found all four birth scenes so traumatic to watch, after going on the hysterectomy journey with me (and thankfully, that’s no longer a concern, no uterus, ovaries, tubes), but he will never, ever truly understand why I just went absolutely silent during every single one. Aside from possibly a “nonononono oh Jesus no”.
I had never even heard of this show, but that quote from the producer made me instantly tear up. And your conclusion thereafter I feel deeply. My mom is a Certified Nurse Midwife, and I'm a doula. Birth help access is what we fight for.
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I have a question for you: do you think that the way Targaryen women's are poorly cared for by the Measters in Westeros is a parallel for certain real world willful neglect and negligence when it comes to healthcare of women today and not just in the American medical field?
So first an apology because this is somewhat wordy and I am truly sorry for putting all of this in a comment section but I've always been curious and I honestly respect your opinion so I have to ask.
It seems as though you might not watch the show or read the book so just a little background on Targaryen women to understand where my thought process is coming from and to help you come to the best conclusion: the young girl you saw will end up having two birthing scenes in one she delivers a stillborn baby who in the book is described as having a tail and the prop that they use for the show has a lot of dragon features.
The reason for this is Targaryen are descended from dragonlord sorcerers literally have dragon's blood in their veins to bind them to their dragons. All of their stillborn babies come out with dragon features ( this is constantly been documented within ASOIAF history)
The dragon's blood thing is also why Targaryen women don't just "like" being in boiling hot water ( which targaryens have a natural resistance to it doesn't scold them or turn their skin red) but literally need it (dragons incubator eggs within volcanoes) yet the Masters only give them lukewarm water because that's what's acceptable for any pregnant woman
I have always felt part of the reason for Targaryens not having healthy births is that the Maesters do not believe in Valyrian magic and ignore a lot of the text the Targaryen ancestors about themselves and just go by their own methods of caring for pregnant women despite the fact that 300 years of Targaryen rule(and documented accounts of all royal births) have shown them that their methods do not work for Targaryens women and their children ( because targaryens are not fully human)
Daenerys (a 14 year old girl and one of 3 last living descendant of targaryens) in the original Game of Thrones gave birth to a stillborn son, Rhaegal, (whom she was not ever able to actually see because she was unconscious for 3 days after his birth) the way the witch who delivered him describe the baby was very graphic but it included bat-wings (really dragon wings) and being scaled like a lizard (also a common feature of stillborn targaryens.)
Now taking out the Fantastical elements I am wondering does this ring true to history and even present day of people ignoring clear facts either out of willful ignorance and perhaps stubbornness as well as moral and religious reasoning (the religion part is relevant because the maesters are all trained in the Citadel which is the headquarters of the faith of the seven which condemn the Targaryen and the ancestral magic in them and according to the valyrians their magic and connection to the dragons all come from the ancient fire gods that they worship, probably another reason that their ancestral text which describe almost everything about them is ignored.)
So for the Masters to properly help the targaryens they have to:
1st* admit that they were wrong in the past and that some of their long-held medical beliefs are wrong (they are meant to be the most intelligent men in the realm so of course they don't want to admit that) and 2nd they would have to acknowledge that the magic within the Targaryen blood is real which would challenge their beliefs which is more important than them than the health of these women
I feel like this rings true to what's happened throughout history and what is currently happening today with doctors and certain organizations with religious backgrounds are choosing to spread ignorance and fight against any attempt to apply the needed medical assistance. This is despite the fact that there is existing proof that those much needed methods not only works but are direly needed in certain fields ignorance aside I think that the two things I just mentioned play a big role in the neglect of certain Health officials and of the Healthcare System
(I also have a vested interest in mental health and I think this Rings true with psychologist)
I wanna apologize again for how long this comment is but I just want to be sure I'm making myself clear on what I'm asking so you can give a clear answer
I love your newsletter! As a teen, I think all teens should read it!
@@danybey1920 America isn't the only place with bad womens health though.
@@RedRoseSeptember22 yes I know I said "not just American" because our Health Care system is different from a lot of the world.
I know that when it comes to educational system, laws, social hierarchies (some places have literal caste systems) and work environment (some companies can essentially own you if you go to work for them when America actually has lost to protect its citizens (now whether that's enforced or not well..🤷)) but when it comes to Health Care our country seems to be extremely f*****.
I used to look up prices for dental and certain Medical Treatments and compare globally and I realize how crazy the US
but I do know that when it comes to Women's Healthcare and mental health care it's kind of terrible everywhere
The gore of cutting her open is obviously totally horrifying, but I found the bit where they remove the cushion from behind her back and just shift her down the bed with no warning to be the thing that sets me cringing. IDK y, I think it's suddenness of the movement, her weak questions about what is happening and her inability to do anything about it as they hold her down that really just gets me. She trusts them. They're there to help right up until they decide she's disposable and then they just 'do what has to be done'.
It pisses me off that they didn’t, at the very least, sedate her before cutting her up, too! They absolutely had the means to do so, they couldn’t knocked her out so she didn’t have to be awake and aware for all of it.
@@rekkariley652
I think they said they couldn't give her anything more because it would harm the baby.
I get what you mean.
At that point they’ve decided they’re going to kill her to save the baby, so they don’t care about her anymore. Not even enough to let her have such a small comfort as a pillow in her final moments.
It’s horrific, but it really works well with the earlier scene with her daughter, and talking about how all those attendants only care about the baby.
@@jillreyerma7592They knew they were killing her. They could have knocked her hard over the head.
It seems like a narrative choice to show that she finally understand's that she's just an object to the King, imo.
As horrible as this scene is it really does showcase the horror of women having a lack of agency when it comes to their own bodies. Despite being set in a fictional setting I suspect it hits as hard as it does is because it's still so heart-breakingly relevant.
And back before modern medicine..... its just terrifying how much of a risk pregnancy was. I dont think other animals have this hard of time in pregnancy and birth
@@MyLittleGreenHairdedMermaid Depends on the animal... Look up the size of Kiwi bird eggs relative to their bodies, or spotted hyenas... But humans definitely have it very hard. Biology really just did itself dirty with this whole system :(
@@MyLittleGreenHairdedMermaid Sadly...the maternal mortality rate in the USA is the worst among industrialized nations. As horrifying as THAT statistic is, the maternal mortality rate triples if the woman is African American.
I have an aunt that back in the 60’s was in a violent marriage, she had such a complicated deliver that it came to choosing between her and the baby. She was fully conscious but still the doctors asked THE FATHER to decide who to save, that mf told the doctor to save the baby ONLY because “he would be the one that could keep carrying the family’s last name”. Luckily the doctor decided yo save my aunt instead.
I threw up watching this and when I next looked at my daughter's face I almost got sick again. You are absolutely right and it's tragic
They used real midwives for the birthing scenes in this series. The most horrific things for me was seeing Aemma hauled down the bed unceremoniously once the decision had been made. She was no longer a woman, a human being, she was no longer valued or treated as such. The fact Viserys didn’t tell her what was going to happen. If faced with the choice Viserys had been given, perhaps she would have made the same choice - to save her child and sacrifice herself. But she wasn’t given the choice. It was the lack of agency over her own body that was the most horrific and that sadly is something women are still facing today. One of the many things I liked about this series was that it deliberately chose to show several birth scenes and each one was different, reflecting the fact that each woman’s experience of childbirth is unique. I would be interested to see your views on the other births in this series - there are 2 in episode 6 and one in episode 10.
and didn't even give her more pain medication
Trigger warning re: prioritizing baby over mom, I watched a history documentary about midwifery, giving birth and contraception in medieval Britain and apparently up until the 18th century if a baby got stuck during birth they had no qualms smashing in its head if that meant the mother would live. They showed the instruments and it was pretty chilling.
I mean, I think that makes sense, as horrible as that is, from their perspective. If you can save the woman, then that woman may go on to have many more children, but if she dies, she may have only had that child or no children if the baby died anyway. At that time, even for serfs, having many children was important because the more children you had, the more help you had on your farm, once your children were old enough.
What documentary?
I would love to know the documentary
I was going to say this, a healthy woman who could carry a baby to term in most circumstances was more valuable than a baby who may or may no
*may not survive birth or infancy
I watched this shortly after almost dying from an ectopic pregnancy. I did not realize what was about to happen. Very traumatic scene. Thank you for the trigger warning.
I am so sorry you had both experiences.
I had an ectopic as well and I'm never having sex again!
My heart goes out to you.
I’ve had three ectopic pregnancies and this type of thing makes me so aware of the fact I would have died after the first in medieval times. It’s terrifying. Sorry you’ve been through it too.
*sighs puts another reason why not to get pregnant* thnx
Spoilers for those who haven't seen the show:
There're four birth scenes in this show and 3/4 are horrifying! One C-section, one with a breech birth and the mother kills herself on her own terms rather than die in childbirth, one with a stillbirth and cord wrapped around the baby's neck.
The one that was okay, with a relatively easy birth, the mother has to get up seconds after having her baby and start walking before even delivering the placenta and walks all the way across the palace, leaving blood on the floor as she walks. So the birth was okay, but afterwards was awful.
I have never seen this show, so I'm good on spoilers. But holy smokes! That's a lot of birth trauma. 😳
@@lesliesteele3926 as someone who is 7 months ttc with no luck conceiving this honestly made me feel almost grateful I'm not pregnant. I could not imagine if I was 6 months pregnant trying to watch this show, I would be petrified of birth.
@@ninimeggie4771 I know this show is meant to terrify you but I’ve had the best pregnancies and birth. Did it hurt? Yes. Was it manageable? Yes. Would I do it again, yes. Was it worth it? Absolutely. I hope you find success in conceiving.
@@scrapper900 we're still trying, it didn't turn me off of having children. But I was momentarily grateful to not be pregnant while watching, if that makes sense
@@ninimeggie4771 i started watching game of thrones when my oldest was still a baby and there's a scene in the first episode of the 2nd season where a baby believed to be king robert's illegitimate heir is ripped from his mother's arms and murdered. i damn near quit the whole show at that moment because i just could not handle it.
Paddy Considine (King Viserys) said in an interview that Sian Brooke's performance as Queen Aemma was what truly informed how he would play the king. He said Viserys died when his wife did and everything after that was just living with the grief and suffering he thinks he deserves and the weight of knowing the choice he took away from her that ended her life. On many occasions he has gone out of his way to make sure that Sian Brooke is recognised for her incredible work during her short time on the show.
Yes, the changes in him from Aemma's death explains why he let his daughter have 3 bastard kids because Rhaenyra reminds him of his late, beloved wife.
@@amyrat151 I think that is why he chose to ignore the rumours, and to stand firm in his decision to make Rhaenyra his heir and defend her against the slander of the court. He felt guilt after Aemma's death, and I think he also felt truly remorseful about how he had damaged his relationship with his daughter by marrying again, especially considering his choice of bride. I think the casting choice was incredible and Emma D'Arcy looks so much like Sian Brooke. It's uncanny.
@@psychedelicpegasus7587 d’Arcy was casted before the younger actress.
@@sherryemerson98 Sian Brooke is Queen Aemma not Rhaenyra.
Thank you for sharing that. The actor praising his co - star's strength as an actress does make this slightly horrible crime tolerable and I see it in better light.
There are four graphic childbirth scenes in this show, all of which highlight important issues regarding personal autonomy, loss and the physical health of women. All would make good videos to dive further into if you have the time and emotional energy ❤
Yes, there is more.
I couldn't agree more. I hope she will watch the other scenes too.
Especially Rheyneara's stillbirth
I wouldn't say Rhaneryas first birth is particularly graphic
@@unkaleidoscoped8194I respectfully disagree, she didn’t even have time to deliver her placenta before her baby would have been taken away and she didn’t get any individual bonding time
I was 9 months pregnant watching this scene and it had me SOBBING hysterically… just essentially being brutally murdered by the person who is supposed to love and take care for you. It just broke something inside of me watching her go through the realization of what was going to happen.
Yes indeed was horrible, he was persuaded by the maester and he didn’t wanna do it, so they made him choose between saving one (the baby) or have them both died, according to the show the mother had no hope, she was gonna die regardless because she had some kind of problem (I think she was loosing a lot of blood) but they encourage the king to do the c section in hopes that at least one could be saved, but sadly the baby died too and he could never forget himself from having his wife die in a terrible way
Omg I'm so glad I read the comments before watching the video 😱 I'm seven months pregnant and now I don't think I need/want to see this 🙈🙈
@@carmenmuffler6860 this pregnancy is nothing. The most gruesome is the stillbirth scene in show during last episode. There are 4 REALLY BRUTAL birth scenes in this that’ll make you flinch.
I know, I can’t understand how someone who loves their spouse would make that kind of decision for their spouse and especially not telling them. When she realized what was happening and he just kept going along with it, it made me feel sick. He just wanted to do it in case the baby was a boy. He didn’t even want a kid he wanted an heir. I agree, something inside me broke also.
@@alexherreba People say this like there wasn't a third option. ASK AEMMA WHAT SHE WANTED!!! She could have stiffened her shoulders and said, "save my baby no matter what" or she could have been like "let me have the rest of that milk of the poppy and gl with the next child bride." But they didn't give her that choice. They held her down and murdered her for the cracker jack surprise.
"But he loved her so much and they were reunited after he died" -literal comments others have made.
Forget that! If I was aemma I would never forgive him. That was brutal and so cruel.
I agree some people are so ignorant or say “what about the men in the situation they must feel so sad” it’s like they would not feel so sad if they did what they would have done and left the decision up to her.
If they met in the afterlife I hope it's an afterlife where she gets to shank him over and over for all eternity to see how he likes it.
I think it shows that a lot of men think that they love their wives above all else but still don't view them as full humans, he didn't even consider letting her not be pregnant because he feels that he is owed sex and children. Men would kill their wives by constantly getting them pregnant back then but they literally couldn't even conceive of an alternative, they viewed it as natural and normal to impregnate your wife until it killed her. I'm not saying this to excuse them AT ALL, rather that they mentally dehumanized women so much that it didn't even occur to them that they were the cause of her death
@@gwencere9383 Yes, key word is “think”, but they don’t actually love them. Like you said they saw them more as objects for them to play with especially back then because there entire attitude towards women dehumanized them. So in there eyes they loved their wives but in reality, they really didn’t, you don’t do that to someone you love. And it is no excuse at all, if anything it just makes thing so much worse. And what you said about him not even considering letting her not be pregnant makes sense since she was not really a full human in his eyes.
and it was so unnecessarily cruel too, like they couldn't just numb her up ? knock her out the very least ? give her that milk of the poppy they have in westeros ? fucking insane
I think scenes like these need to be seen. It drives me nuts whenever people are like "well we used to live without these meds/interventions/vaccines and we survived." Like sure, there's a thing to be said against the overmedication we encounter in modern society. But no, people didn't live better without those things. For some reason, a lot of people don't seem to realize that just because the SPECIES survived doesn't mean the individuals did. All it takes for a species to survive is for those who are lucky enough to survive and reproduce to have enough kids to make up for those who didn't. The Shunzhi emperor, for example, died at age 22. He had 14 children, 5 of whom lived long enough to marry. And that's basically how the species survived. For women, the timeline would be less condensed, but for every woman who died in childbirth, there's another who could successfully have 7-10 or even more kids without a hitch, which made up for those who died. Those who died in childbirth didn't necessarily die during their FIRST childbirth either, so they could have very easily survived long enough to have had a few kids already.
Those people just cherry pick what they want to believe 🤡 giving birth is still no walk in the park, a lot of people I follow have given birth throughout the past year and many of them had complications and one almost died, even though she did everything perfectly correct and her partner took amazing care of her, it's just still something crazy to go through.
That's called "survivor bias". They say the same things about poverty also. When you see "inspirational" stories about someone pulling themselves out of poverty by walking 10 miles to and from work in worn-out shoes, and barely eating to make ends meet. For every person who does that, there are thousands who die homeless, cold, and starving. But that single case of someone "making it" makes people think it doesn't happen, or that somehow those others didn't matter, or that those others just didn't do it right.
💯
Yes, I have a debilitating phobia of IVs and needles from complex PTSD from repeated medical trauma as a child. The "most severe case I've ever seen" in one of my therapists opinion. Because of this, trying to have a baby myself would be far more risky than Russian Roulette (15-25% fatality rate as Dr.Jones said,) as I can't seek most medical treatments and don't trust doctors at all to prioritise me over a fetus. I can't even be put under because even the marks left from an IV would make me suicidal.
Yet time and time again I'm told "People have been doing it without medical help for years." like it's not a big deal and I should just intentionally get pregnant and give myself a 1/4 chance of dying because that just how it used to be. Funnily enough, I have a 4 sided die, but anytime I offer for these same people to play a game with me where they roll the dice and if it lands on 1 I'll do it, but if it lands on 4 they have to shoot themselves in the head, they don't want to play with me for whatever reason. Almost like when it's their own life on the line, all of a sudden it doesn't matter how many people in the past risked it.
@@TheAwesomes2104 That is beyond crazy that people try to convince you to do something you know would be to your detriment.
Good idea about carrying the dice. Thanks for sharing your story.
I feel like a note that was missed by a lot of people I've seen is the parallels the show draws between Viserys in this scene and Daemon during Laena's birth scene and how despite Daemon being portrayed as the evil brother and Viserys being the righteous king, Daemon refuses to make that choice and doesn't really try to stop Laena from making it herself, whereas Viserys takes all of Aemma's agency away in a time when he should have been advocating for her.
And Damon was actually was on hand when Laena gave birth and sympathizing with her pain and trouble while Viserys was too busy at the tourney. In the books Laena had a stillbirth and was suffering from birth fever, she tried to go to Vhagar to ride her one last time but died on the way there. Damon carried her body back to her bed.
Yeah, they worked *so hard* to leave no question what Viserys did was wrong. Even the *bad brother* wasn't down to do something that awful to someone he'd married. I can't believe there is anyone who watched that show and didn't take from that situation that it was a terrible thing to do.
As if Daemon is a saint lol He literaly murdered Rhea Royce, his first wife, with a stone. But wow so praising of him to at least question Laena's fate...
@@MissKashira Good for Daemon for doing the bare minimum? Also, he still murdered Rhea Royce in cold blood and never regreted it. So both brothers are wife killers.
@@Ashbrash1998 Yeah and in the book Viserys doesn't do a Tourney in the middle of Aemma's birth so what? Both book and show are different, don't you dare bring the book on this.
And yet there is a disturbing trend on the Mommy blogs encouraging people to have "free Birth" or totally medically unattended childbirth. Every time I read about it, I get chills down my spine.
I don't agree with that. Yeah it would be nice not to have to pay a medical fee but if I ever have children I want doctors present just in case there are difficulties with either me or my babies.
My friend had birth at home. Even through sugar-coding, from what they said, it was horrifying and they had to go to hospital right after anyway. Technically before the end of the birth :(. And they diligently prepared for it for months!
Tooooo much stuff can happen to the BABY after birth, not breathing, bleeding, birth injury, WHY would you not want to be in a medical facility??? I would rather err on the side of caution.@@jozob
I known of someone who opted for home birth with doulas for doctors, ended up almost losing her baby and traumatised to this day.
When she says "I'll never be a son" I almost started crying. It's sad but I feel like that's something even to this day some children experience.
At a baby shower for my supervisor, we (her crew) put together a momma care pack that was all lotions, facial masks, fuzzy socks and treats we knew she liked “because everyone else would be getting things for the baby.” It’s always good to remember a baby can’t happen (outside of a lab) without a momma and she needs to be cared for every step of the way!
Not even inside of a lab. It is possible to fertilize an egg, but the survival of an embryo for more than 20 days outside of a womb is not yet possible, so a baby cannot happen without a human with a functional uterus.
thats very kind of you ! the only things I got for me after birthing my son was a nursing bra and shirts when my mom and mother in-law bought me clothes. I had no helpful after birth gifts . so when my sister-in-law was close to her due date I sent her a after care kit.
@@HosCreatesgod bless y’all, that’s very kind of you!
Yes! I always do this. Easy grab & go filling snacks for mom, a nice body lotion, postpartum pads, soft blanket or nice socks, some treats, and then usually a gift card for skip/door dash/Uber eats.
I do this for all my pregnant co-workers.
I always liked the ancient Spartan view of childbirth and dying in it. Women were given (according to my current limited understanding of the historical accounts) full honors equal to a state military hero’s funeral if they died in childbirth, because it was well understood that death was common and children were the hope for the future. The only other “acceptable” ways to die were in battle or from old age after all the battles were over.
In islam , we have the concept of shahid , who is a martyr , and the man who died while battle is a martyr alongside the woman who died in childbirth.
It is one of the reasons I am not as scared of being pregnant in the furture
@@louyou6614 that’s quite fascinating to know actually. I’m a writer who currently is working on an Islamic character. Thank you for your insights.
Vikings too. Valhalla is for men who die in battle and women who die in childbirth.
@@rxg9er In the Asatru faith, women who die honorably, such as in childbirth, go to Folkvangr, realm of Freya. Freya also gets the first choice of half of those who fall in battle, and the half she does not choose go to Odin in Valhalla to train and feast in preparation to fight in the never-ending battle
The actress who played the Queen deserves an award for the scene. Her screams in the show were chilling. Glad you muted the audio because I don't think I can hear it again.
The scene is actually stunning even though its violent. How they said "a childbirth is our battlefield" and during childbirth switched between the birth scene and a vulva shaped fight arena... Stellar. The whole series was amazing but I actually think this scene is one of my favourites because of how many layers it has... Even if it was traumatizing
I hadn’t noticed the arena detail until you mentioned it. Brilliant writing and symbolism… so tragic and so painfully real.
This scene trully is stunning and i am really glad someone is finally showing birth for what it is, not as a sitcom punchline. I had to appreciate how well it was done, even though it honestly re-traumatised me. I was in a similar situation to Aemma when giving birth and I am really grateful for modern medicine, even then it was awful to experience. What I have to point out in the performance, what really made a difference from other birth scenes on TV and made it deeply real, was how they showed her fear when she realised something was wrong. The loss of control, her vulnerability and panic, it struck a deep memory in me and I had to stop the show and take a break before finishing the episode. Absolutely amazing work they did here
@@MeeshT Yeah, the symbolism of the shape of the jousting/fighting arena is really strong but also entirely coincidental. That shape is just the standard classic shape of a jousting arena. But it, coincidentally, does look vaguely like vulva as well.
@@AnxietyRat I doubt that by the amount of planning and thinking that goes into every single almost invisible stitching of every dress the characters wear, I'm pretty sure they were aware of the vulva shape and chose it on purpose. I mean, it's a fantasy world - no need for historic accuracy when it comes to architecture. Also most films about medieval times have tournaments on a grass field with a more rectangular shaped jousting grounds. Even in GoT the jousting in first season was done in a rectangular arena
@@phoebeel people who know waaay more about jousting than I do have said that that is the classic shape. So it was most likely coincidental that that was the shape of the arena. I think some people have brought it up with the producers or showrunners or something as well and I think they said that it was coincidental. But I could be wrong about that.
The male "doctor" is a maester. They're sort of a cross between early medieval monks and modern scientists. They're hoarders of knowledge. They're headquarters is the Citadel, which is basically the Library of Alexandria turned up to 11. It doubles as a university of sorts where men (no women) from all over the Seven Kingdoms study all sorts of subjects. Once they master a subject they forge a ring that becomes part of a chain they'll wear once they become a full maester. At that point they're sent out to serve one of the lords and ladies of the realm as advisor.
The Grand Maester is sent to advise the King. Unfortunately, this one is pretty crap in the fields of medical science. Either that, or he's just very conservative, and relies way too much on older and sometimes outdated methods. Or he's trying to kill the King, but that's a whole other rabbit hole. This is particularly obvious in the way he treats Viserys' lepracy. He prefers to leech his wounds. Fortunately for the King (less so the dragons) he's eventually replaced, and the new Grand Maester makes poultices that keeps him alive for another 20 years.
Yeah, I don't think that it's that the old maester is conservative. I just think he hasn't been as hungry for knowledge like most maesters are and so has not updated his knowledge on things since he left the place they all learn... So he's just using super duper outdated knowledge. And that becomes very apparent when a new maester comes in to kind of train under him and eventually replaces him and allows the king to live much much longer with his newer practices... But yeah, this maester sucks, for sure.
That scene solidified my belief in the Grand Maestor conspiracy.
There's a very strong theory that the maesters have been anti dragon all along and secretly conspired in the downfall of the house of the dragon for centuries until the Targaryens were finally overthrown
I remember when giving birth to my daughter, it took 4 hours. I had a natural birth, the first 2 hours she didn't want to come out, no matter how hard I tried, but eventually after 2 more hours she was born at 5am. My husband was with me the whole time, he help my hand, whispered words of encouragement and cried when I cried at the exact same time during the final push when we heard her first cry.
I'm not gonna lie, this scene had both of us crying. While I was pregnant I remember having nightmares were I didn't make it, but our little girl lived, then my husband had a nightmare where both our daughter and me didn't make it. We are okay now, last month our toddler just turned 5 years old. She's the most energetic and talkative girl you'd even meet.
With everything that happens in House of the Dragon, this was also the scene I found most terrifying
I've never seen it, but I cannot imagine how it would get worse. I am traumatized.
@Mama Doctor Jones honestly it doesn't get worse then this. This was incredibly hard to watch to the point my mom who was excited for the show decided that it wasn't worth watching
@@wyldcardsam I found one of the later birth scenes even harder to watch... I thought the first episode was the worst, but no, for me the last birth scene is worse.
@@ninimeggie4771 whose birth was that. Lol i forgot. Was that Rhaenyra's baby
@@ninimeggie4771 I just finished the series the other night and I know what you're talking about. Both are horrid.
I would love to see your reaction to the other birth scenes in the show. The breech, the miscarriage and the “normal” birth where she is forced to walk and attend to the Queen as she still delivering the placenta and she’s bleeding on the floor.
100% There are so many different births on the show and each has a very strong message.
Stillbirth not miscarriage
here's the deal - nobody would actually do that, historically. birth was a very afab space, and so was exempt from some of the amab panopticon abuse that permeated other interactions.
@@neepsnorpington historical means nothing in this instance. People mistake fantasy for mid evil. No. This is a different world completely. Sorry I just had to point that out
Rhaenyra was not forced to walk to Queen Alicent. The Queen demanded to see Rhaenyra's baby as soon as the boy was born; and Rhaenyra did not want to let her son go into Alicent's hands alone.
I remember watching this and thinking "I can't wait til MDJ reviews this!"
The real horror for me was Queen Aemma trusted every person in that room and it was met with brutality and lack of respect for her life.
I cried so much watching this scene… most women would choose to give their lives to save the child’s one if they would die anyway but not telling her was what for me was the most horrible part: she was already in so much pain, scared, tired and suddenly she doesn’t even know why they handle her like livestock, restrained her and when she realizes the look of pure panic and betrayal in her face broke my heart… what a horrible way to die
What makes it worse for me is that she JUST told him that she was done getting pregnant because she couldn't bear to bury anymore of her children. Then for her to be butchered and pleading with her "husband" over and over that "they're getting the babe out." She must have thought he was punishing her for bot wanting to get pregnant again and I fully 100% believe his leprosy was a curse from her
And it’s sad women have been groomed into romanticizing their own martyrdom and self sacrifice like that. You exist already and are conscious and have goals and know what you would be missing and have people who know and love you. Not the baby. You are not obligated to sacrifice yourself for a baby. That is not noble. You are not a vessel. You deserve your life. Makes me so mad women are groomed into that from the time we are babies ourselves. Our lives have value. We are more than our wombs.
The sobbing and pleading from Aemma to stop just broke me. It's such a traumatizing scene.
Thank you for editing the audio.
Her daughter Rhaenyra has her own babies further in the episodes. Would love to see your take on her labors as well. Episode 6 for the postpartum and episode 10 as she goes into premature labor.
Yes!
yes! Especially with her refusing the midwives assistance.
Yesss
You talked about the birthing process being different for royalty briefly and it reminded me of the birthing scene in Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette(2006). There's a depiction of an entire room filled with members of the court all just watching her give birth and apparently that was completely accurate. I read that it's estimated almost 200 people tried to pack into her birthing chamber!
ewww that's so terrible for her :(
Yes! This was done not only as a privilege for those favored by the royal family, but also served as proof that the queen gave birth and didn’t sneak in a different baby and present it as royalty.
Yes. I can't remember if it was her or another royal mother, but SO many people crammed into the birth chamber and the labor lasted so long that the oxygen levels depleted and the mother passed out and nearly died. One of the ladies in waiting told off the court physicians and the midwives and opened up the windows... letting cold air but more importantly, fresh air in. Mom to be pinked up and the baby was born healthy.
Very interesting
They did that in England, too, right up until Queen Victoria looked up in the middle of her first labor and saw a bunch of men watching her. She put a stop to that practice on the spot.
Love your editor 😂 Yes, the "Maester" is basically the "Game of Thrones/House of Dragon" equivalent of a doctor. He was called after the complications started. Up until that point, it was just her and the midwives.
They are very learned men, in general. Maesters have different areas of study that they have mastered, so not everyone of them is skilled or knowledgeable about child birth. However, a maester who serves at any castle in Westeros would have to be in order to take care of the Lady of the castle should he need to do so.
My epidural wore off during my cesarean and I was tied to the table, the anesthesiologist was very busy watching my blood pressure climb higher and higher and it was about 5 minutes before I could get anyone’s attention to let them know that *pain* I had a hard time watching this scene as well.
Aemma reminded me a little of Catherine of Aragon. She had six documented pregnancies and only two of those were definitely live births, Henry Duke of Cornwall and Mary I. For most people at the time, all of her accomplishments and intelligence didn't count for anything because she couldn't have a son.
Right?! I'm glad someone else also saw the similarities
@@hez5160 A lot of people compare The Dance of Dragons to The Anarchy and Byzantine history, which is I believe is correct but there's also some influence from Tudor history and fiction.
GRRM himself has said his works are very much inspired by the histories of the royal houses of England, particularly the War of the Roses.
History would have been a lot different if we'd known that men determine gender instead of women.
@@nancyhasten-sn8lm Both men and women together make up the ideas of what gender is. In no culture to men make it up on their own.
My husband watched the episode about an hour before I did and was able to give me a trigger warning - thank goodness. It would have sent me to a terrible place for quite awhile… and yet knowing that, I still watched and could appreciate the truth they tried to portray about pregnancy and childbirth in that time. It wasn’t pretty, it wasn’t a beautiful natural thing with lovely music - and when things went sideways, a woman had pretty much no say in saving her own life.
I would have loved to have watched both Game of Thrones and House of Dragon, but with the amount of triggering scenes I couldn't bring myself to try.
This scene was absolutely horrific to watch BUT with all the shit going down with reproductive rights in the US I'm so glad they included this and all the other birth scenes in all their graphic detail (SPOILER: there is also a very graphic stillbirth at the end of the season and another birth mid season where the mother and baby die). It's important to show that pregnancy and childbirth don't always end with health and happiness, even in modern day, and pregnancy and childbirth aren't something that should be forced on anyone!
I agree. The people who claim to value all life seem to not care about the lives of the women and girls who they want to force to go through pregnancy. I heard a story about a ten year old girl who was raped and got pregnant and because of the anti abortion laws her family had to take her to another state to get an abortion because they would not even make an exception for a child. (my brother told me about this so I have no source unfortunately)
@@Donika691 I've heard similar stories, so tragic 😔 Very glad to live in Australia where abortion is legal in every state (there are varying laws, regulations and accessibility in each state though, it's not a perfect system but leaps and bounds ahead of the US!).
@@laurashepherd2479 what's weird is that abortion was legal (not always of course but recently) and then there was that whole thing where they overturned that and made it illegal again. I was so baffled at how that could happen it's like they are legit trying to reverse all our progress and take us back to the dark ages. It's like the saying one step forward, two steps back.
@@Donika691 not to be disrespectful but can you get pregnant at 10 (I was gonna google it and decided i didn’t wanna be on that list 😂) the youngest recorded birth was five but she had Precocious puberty (early on set) which is very rare, I know girls usually start puberty at around 8 but i didn’t know you could get pregnant until you started your period (not trying to be disrespectful genuinely curious)
@@Danheron2 You can get pregnant whenever you start ovulating, which by my 'research' (a light googling) happens a year or two after you start puberty, so with your age of 8 you posited YES you'd be right on track for pregnancy at ten. Puberty and menstrual cycle onset differ person to person but the age has dropped (worryingly) over time to my knowledge. And just so you know, you CAN get pregnant before your first period (period in this case specifically referring to the bleeding phase of menses) because you have your first ovulation before that.
As an archaeologist I have been on a dig where they found over 3000 bodies of children (from miscarriages/abortions to small infants) buried in a monastary from the 1700's. They filled the field in a few years, the monastery was right next to the regional hospital. They had all kinds of illnesses. We don't know what happened to the mothers, but it is a possibility most of them died. Those children, as they were too young to be baptized, or never got to live, were buried on holy grounds so they could be closer to God. The births in HOTD are a great representation of what was going on back then.
As a labor and delivery nurse I love the way that you articulate your stance on reproductive choice. I remember the first time that I supported a family through still-birth and provided post-mortem care to a 25ish week fetus and I had a simultaneous recognition of this fetus as a complete person and an unshakable resolution in my belief that no one should be forced to go through birth unwillingly.
If you consented to sex you consented to pregnancy
It's a wonder any of us were born after seeing these overpowering films. How did any of us get here.
A mother wouldn´t kill her child to avoid going through birth.
@@laragutbrod9731many do because they already have children, so get off your high horse.
@@DiligentThroat How do you decide which one gets to live and which one gets to die?
Loved seeing a gyno's reaction to this! Ive never had babies and never wanted babies but even I was squirming and holding myself like "NOOOOOOOOO!". This scene was brutal and They didnt even tell her what they were going to do. It was like "Oh, surprise!". I would have fought and reacted the same. It kinda just hits me because my brother and I were both c-section babies. I was 2 weeks late and mum had to be induced. She was just too narrow for me to fit through. 16 hours later I was finally cut out. My brother, who is 2 years younger than me, was a bit smaller, but he too couldnt fit through and he had to be cut out. Im just so glad that c-sections areant so risky like they were way back when. I love my mum and my brother
Same, I didn't want to come out, and didn't turn properly, so I was born by c section. Then my brother nearly 2y after me was c section too. Little kids are cute enough, I'm close with my cousin and her 4 kids, especially the youngest, the 18 month old. But as I've grown older I don't think I even want to have my own, I don't think I could do it every single day for years, and the more I learn about pregnancy, birth, post birth, the more it terrifies me. I saw this episode and couldn't continue with watching it's just so horrific 😭
The fact that they didn't even give the queen any say in the matter was the most horrific part to me. Yet another instance of a woman's bodily autonomy being ripped away from them.
yes!! not even no say in the matter, but not even a warning or explanation. Absolutely horrific.
@@MamaDoctorJones ye not even explaining it to her is just horrible. I do find myself a bit conflicted with actually giving her a choice in this situation. I am normally quite firmly im the pro-choice camp but when the baby is ready to be born and the mother is basically guaranteed to die either way is it really right to not save the baby even against the mother's wishes?
@@GoldenMechaTiger WTF?
@@marlowemayhem3230 it's utilitarian. How can we save the most lives. If the choice is "save baby but mother died" or "do nothing and they both die"
It's not a good choice but it's arguable that there is only one moral choice.
It's like the trolley problem. Someone is going to die no matter what we do, but we can control how many (of course my answer to that is 'find the person who keeps tying people to trolley tracks and make them stop.)
@GoldenMechaTiger If you are in the process of dying from exhaustion but my little child needs a colon transplant, do I get to cut yours out of you - no anaethetic and raw - without your permission? Of course not.
Dying person gets to choose if they are willing to risk dying an even more painful, violent death for someone else's possible benefit. We don't get to enhance their suffering without their agreement. That is immoral.
Wow. That was definitely traumatic and triggering. Thank you for the warning. I did watch through and had mostly the same reactions as you did. I had an emergency c-section and actually lost so much blood that they had my husband bring in our pastor because they told him I wouldn't survive. (I had other underlying complications. I had a heart attack at 22 weeks and lost my daughter's twin.) I won't go into what I felt because it truly is unbelievable. But I will say that at least my husband and doctors tended to both of us the entire time and I did hear him say to save me if it came to that. (I was actually very mad at him for that after my uterus ruptured and I had an emergency hysterectomy 5 months later because I would never be able to carry another baby. Obviously had I died when my daughter was born, I wouldn't have carried any more babies then either. But....hormones. He understood.)
I have this show on my watch list but was on the fence about actually watching it. After seeing this, traumatic as it was, I'm very curious to see what happens. I can imagine this put more of a strain on the relationship or lack thereof between the king and his daughter.
As always, thank you for the video! Wishing you and your family and very Happy New Year!!
No, don’t watch it if you’re not inclined to. These shows nowadays try to draw you in with an interesting storyline and then leave you traumatized with the violence and gore. It’s really not worth it.
As brutal as the show can be, it truly is a family drama at heart. If you’re interested, I definitely recommend it!
If you find it triggering I recommend skipping through the birth scenes as there is another one that is also extremely brutal. Other than that, the show was quite interesting and had lots of political intrigue and interesting family dynamics.
I'd say watch but with care, maybe have your husband at your side and skip parts that are too much for you.
I would maybe read the books in that case? You’ll know the story and can choose to watch the show?
This scene was hard to watch, but I think it did a good job setting the stakes for the rest of the season. Whenever you see a character is pregnant, or being encouraged to marry in order to produce heirs, you know how badly it might end
This is even more devastating in the context of the character because Aemma’s mother died giving birth to her.
I was about 35 weeks pregnant with a breech baby when I watched this (watched it the night it aired so I didn't have any warning). I don't know how I made it through the whole scene. I am definitely grateful for todays medicine and that I had a smooth c-section and a fast and easy recovery and baby and I are healthy.
My grandfather was forced to make a choice between his first born and his wife. He chose his wife. It's talked about very little in our family. She then had three more children after words with no simmular problems. My grandmother was 1 inch shy of being a little person and the first baby was over 10 lbs. The Doctor she had been seeing left state and never came back one week befor she gave birth. He new it would be impossible to birth the baby safely. That was apporoxametly early 1940s.
Did her first baby live?
@@edgarallanpoestheblackcat6613 no he didn't and his name was John William
I saw a few articles about how people didn't like the birth scenes on HOTD. I felt like they were very realistic in their traumatic and at times brutal nature. Very relatable even as a modern woman who had a failed induction, 2 c sections and 2 pregnancies. Also as a woman who is aware of the different experiences women have with pregnancy and labor all over the world. Pregnancy, labor and postpartum are not always these picturesque fairytales we grow up imagining.
I don't remember all the details, but in historical Europe, a man snuck in to watch a birth through the window- he was a doctor, and childbirth was so hidden from men he had no true idea how it went.
They caught him, and he was executed.
When Doc Jones says that men were not included in childbirth , she means it!!
That's the history of our world, but game of thrones is not our world (just inspired/based on) so how much men are involved or not involved could be different.
What really hit me the hardest with this scene is the similarity to the stories some women tell TODAY about being given csections without their consent and some tragically without anesthesia. Medicine can still be so violent towards women, and it's wounding.
I could actually feel the scalpel cut into my abdomen when I was giving birth to my youngest . Luckily I had my tubes tied afterwards and I said to my partner, " If you want a boy , don't count on me!" 2 girls and 4 losses , I was done with pregnancy!
As someone whose father especially wanted to have a son. And had a girl -me in the 70’s. Growing up knowing this has destroyed me. A healthy baby is a miracle and should be celebrated no matter what the gender 🎉
My grandfather wanted a girl...
My grandmother ended up giving birth to 8 boys.
I personally loved this show because of how much of it is about female autonomy and motherhood. The birth scenes however were a bit traumatising. I genuinely had a nightmare or two and my poor husband couldn’t help but remember our baby’s birth during those scenes 😅
Yeah, it's brilliant!
A scene in The Handmaid's Tale I found to be even more horrible, because it's supposed to be in the present. June is at the birth of another handmaid who winds up needing a c section. We get to see the shadow through a screen of them taking the baby out, then just leaving the mother to die ("she did her duty"). They made NO attempt to save her! In Medieval times, they just didn't have the technology, but in present times, NO excuses. The idea of a king back then choosing to save the child instead of the mother rings true though. They were desperate in some cases (Henry VIII) to have sons because they thought a woman couldn't/shouldn't rule. Henry VIII almost did this with Jane Seymour.
The problem with handmaid's tale is that the handmaids are women condemned that are serving "their sentence for redemption" e.i. giving birth.
The situation you described is similar to a scene in Margaret Atwood's sequel, The Testaments. In that the handmaid at least gets a funeral
I mean I agree but also it definitely depends on if the husband or whoever actually loves the mother. Like if you only want a son and didn’t care about the women, then they left the girl to die. But since Henry truly loved Jane Seymour (even if it was just because of Edward), he tried to save her, and mourned her for two years before Anna even showed up.
here in north america pre colonization we (indigenous peoples) were able to perform successful caesareans with very low maternal and fetal mortality rate, much lower than it is with current medicine (even so, c sections were extremely rare back then with our traditional methods). so it being medieval times isn't much of an excuse at that 😔
Also, Ofmatthew was kept on life support until they did a c-section on her and just left her to finish dying.
What I didn't get about this scene was why as Handmaids were their one valuable commodity. The thing other countries were considering to overlook all the human rights violations to trade for. And up until that scene they highly prioritized keeping them alive. Then for no reason with all our modern science they made no effort not to save this one. I'd wish there had been some sort of explanation to explain this change in policy as it was the policy that had kept the main characters alive for so many seasons despite all the rule breaking. Like a quick mention that the procedure would make her infertile so there was no point in stopping the bleeding and closing her back up. Just anything to explain that one off.
I delivered my first child, a stillborn daughter, about 2-3 months before this aired, via a last minute C-section. It was not lost on my husband and I how lucky we were that I made it home safely with him, even though our daughter did not. Friends invited me over to watch this premiere. It made me ill. I cried so much that night.
Time heals.
@@whychoooseausername4763 this ain't helpful at all
@@whychoooseausername4763 idiot comments do not
@@whychoooseausername4763
Only sometimes
I am very sad for your traumatic experience whilest being very glad you are here to talk about it.
Fun and slightly related fact that may help lighten the mood, in Africa before colonization, midwives knew how to perform C-sections relatively safely! The mother would be sedated with lots of banana wine, the tools would be sterilized with heat, and the survival rate was much higher than their European counterparts.
I appreciate you showing this and commentating on a historical birth and what childbirth used to be and how it's paralleling with the current healthcare changes in the US. I haven't seen the show, but I can only imagine how difficult that whole scene would be to watch.
By the way, I would love to see you react to see you react to Season 6 Episode 7 of The Good Doctor, where there is a delivery of sextuplets. And it has a happy ending :)
This is not a truly "historical birth"; this story takes place on a world that is not our own; it's a fantasy that resembles our own Earth but is not the same place - think of medieval Europe with dragons ruled by a dynasty from a magical Atlantis-like place. There are similarities, but Westeros is not England, France or Spain...
Thank you for editing the scene. Life was brutal in medieval times.
Yes! More historical birthing/women’s health care reactions please!!
here's the thing, many Medieval historians have come out and stated this is not how things went down int he Medieval period. Midwives had tools to sacrifice the baby in order to save the mother. Babies only had a 50% chance of surviving to adulthood and the mother, if saved, could go on to have more children, so she was the priority. It would make no sense to kill a woman on the 50% chance a baby would be a boy and the additonal 50% chance that child would live. Probably lower given a difficult birth. They only time these surgeries were performed was when the mother was dead or clearly drawing her last breaths as a last ditch effort. It's slightly later in the Renaissance period, but Catherine de' Medici had a breach birth of twins. They terminated one of the babies and broke both her legs to get them out of her because she was the priority. The other baby didn't survive either.
If they are making a commentary on our current situation with lack of access to reproductive health, that is fine, but claiming this is a reflection of actual Medieval history and practices is incorrect.
@@ChaiChabeela I can believe that that was typically the case. But I also find this scenario very believable as well. A very patriarchal society where the king's word goes, his wife is carrying a longed-for heir, and their equivalent of a scholar of medicine has persuaded him that she will die regardless? Yeah, I can see him opting to perform the C-section to try to save the baby. If it had been a different woman with a different baby, the option probably wouldn't have even been presented. And if they told him she would likely still survive the birth, he may have chosen differently. But it was the perfect storm that led him to a horrible decision, and I find if pretty believable, regardless of whether it would have been the normal thing in real-life history. I'm not sure that it's even the normal thing in Westeros, the way it's presented here. They wouldn't have called out the Maester for just anyone. It only happened because of the very specific circumstance of who was involved.
@Shaye M That would likely have been the case if they weren't royalty and this wasn't his last chance for a male heir. As MDJ says there wouldn't normally be men allowed in but *because* they're royalty the king and the "doctor"/maester are there and calling the shots. And plenty of women still died horribly in childbirth even if not under these exact circumstances. (Also while it is based on medieval times & MDJ talks about medieval stats this is a fantasy world where they may prioritize differently).
It's still brutal for women around the globe
This scene is so well acted. It is absolutely horrific.
You think that's horrific; what about that scary birth scene in Kenneth Branagh's version of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein? That gave me a little knot in my stomach.
As gruesome/horrible/incredibly scary the scene was (I only watched your edited version and I still got a stomachache so I'm definitely not watching the original one), I loved the investigation and commitment you always put in your videos. It's not just a reaction-type of video from an obgyn, but an actual analysis and I just love that about your channel. Thanks for this, Doc! Very inspirational!
This birthing scene was hard to watch, but I am still glad they made it. It adds something valuable to the show and I think it is nice to see how the characters talk about it after the fact.
It seems that in the US there is still the theme of valuing the potential for a baby baby over the actual life of the pregnant person
Yes I live in the US and anti abortion laws coming back is horrible. Not having access to safe abortion is going to hurt so many women and girls. It's like for all their talk of valuing "all" life they don't seem to care about the women and girls who are the ones going through the pregnancies.
@@Donika691 they're just pro-birthers at the expense of anyone involved. The vast majority of the time they do nothing to help those babies once they're out in the world.
@@XSemperIdem5 Yeah, they say it's cruel to have an abortion, but do they care about the many children already out there in the world or all the women and girls hurt by being forced to have pregnancies? I haven't seen evidence that they care about any of them.
What does that mean, potential of a baby?
@@stayathomemarine not all pregnancies even come to term successfully so at the end it could be a miscarriage, both mom and baby could die, or a woman could be forced to give birth to an already dead baby or one that has no chance of survival. Women have had their lives put at risk because doctors refused to provide a medically necessary abortion too.
The birth scene was so troubling to watch. Easily the most disturbing thing I saw in my partial watch-through of the series.
This reminds me of a scene in Lords and Ladies by Terry Pratchett that I always felt captured the situation so well without being graphic. Granny Weatherwax, the local witch, is called in to help the midwife after a pregnant woman was kicked by a cow. It is determined that the mother or baby or both will die if something isn't done. The midwife asks if they should put it to the husband and Granny asks " “You don’t like him? You think he’s a bad man?” “No!”. “Then what’s he ever done to me, that I should hurt him so?”
She sends the midwife out to comfort the father & in the end she determines to save the mother as the baby is already hurt from the injury and trying further would kill the mother. It always stuck with me and captured the complexity and tragedy of the situation without it turning into possibly exploitative & graphic territory.
I feel the same. I was about 34weeks pregnant watching this scene. Let's just say didn't watch another episode till my baby was 6weeks old
I was 34 weeks too when I watched. We had to pause the scene as I couldn't stop crying and shaking for 30 minutes.
I'm watching the reaction video while breastfeeding and even though the sound of her screams are cut, I still cry.
I'm thankful my baby was a few months old before the show aired. I wouldn't have been able to watch while pregnant either!!
I spent time in a C.A. country, in a maternity ward, where a full third of the babies had not been named. The women seemed resigned that this is just how it was, and six months later, I have wondered how many of those babies are still alive.
CA? Central American?
A fifth to a third . Up to one year. But then comes walking, fire, hot water , dirty water, cholera, measles, tetanus, rabies - Yes, still up to 75 000 people DIE of rabies , very often children left to play on the streets - because they play with the puppies.
And there is not only the "agressive form" the whole foaming is a very very late sign of the illness when the hoast is already dieing so the virus tries go get into another hoast - or asmamy as possible )
but also the "paralytic" form of rabies. Go look it up on YT. They often don't even have saline or Benzodiazepines ot Morpine.
@krissflavored8990 uh yeah if you live in a BS capitalism ruled country. Most 3rd world countries governments don't give a shit about new babies and they don't get any sort of birth certificate or identification anyway. Only those who can afford it get that done.
@@cinnamon9390 California
@@evelynneufeld7610 it says “ca country” so I would presume it is Central American country.
In Bridgerton season 2 there is a scene that is similar to this, but it goes a different way because the pregnant woman is given the choice.
That's what I was reminded of as well (though I forgot it was in Bridgerton). The doctor's face when he is told to ask the woman, like 'what does SHE have to do with this?'
Only because anthony allows it. Not because the doctors respected her.
I can't remember that.
I remember the death of a lady in Downton Abbey due to eclampsia.
@@emmajones8590 ?
Yes this would be a good one for MDJ to do! Still sad but far less graphic & traumatizing like this one.
This scene was both horrific and poetic. Especially with how they spliced it with the tourney scenes.
It made my c section scar tingle and I immediately went to a friend who had had a traumatic c section to pre-warn them so they could prepare themselves.
I had an "emergency" c section last March (I had been in the hospital for a month, they told me in the morning I had developed eclampsia, had the surgery done around dinner time, so it wasn't like 911 right effing now), and watched this during my maternity leave. "I'm scared" is what a said verbatim to my fiancé as they started the surgery. I found this scene traumatizing AF
MDJ, it might make you feel a little bit better to know that in a later episode, the king’s brother is faced with a similar choice, and refuses to let them kill his wife.
There are actually 4 birth/labor scenes in this series. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the fourth one, where Rhaenyra has a stillborn (I think that’s the correct terminology for what they show).
3:30 Book Lore: It was not uncommon for the royal family's stillbirths to be born with dragon features (scales, wings, tail). The reason for this is that their ancestors did magic powered DNA mixing (in fact the dragons themselves are some kind of magically made firewurm/winged reptile mix) on themselves so they could control dragons. It is unclear if those stillborn with dragon features look like they do because it is a birth defect or if all/some royal fetuses goes through a dragon stage in the womb but those vestigial characteristic go away if they are carried to term and not born premature.
To be fair that’s one theory in the book there’s also stuff saying dragons predates Valyria George rr martin likes to keep it vague
@@Danheron2 Yeah, seems Valyria inherited a lot from pre apocalypse Shadowlands. I was hoping Arya's cancelled spin off would take her there.
I would love to see you react to the other three as I feel there would be a lot of interesting topics that you could talk about.
we have them planned - but I feel so bad after watching it. blah
@@MamaDoctorJones Very valid they are super hard to sit with.
@@MamaDoctorJones the first one is the most graphic/gorey of the 4 scenes. The others are just as emotional but a lot less visually traumatic.
I couldn’t get past that first episode. I cried so much 😭 I didn’t watch anymore after this birthing scene. P.S. I absolutely love your videos! ❤️
Same
Yes, but not everything is flowers and rainbows. Sometimes it happens that the anesthesia doesnt work and the doctor just... continue.
The mother will survive, but she will go through exactly the horror and pain that Aemma went through.
Thank you for watching this and reacting. The scene makes me tear up every time and I wasn’t sure if it was sensationalized, or “torture porn”, or really had a point. I feel seen with your reaction and also better knowing now that it was more or less accurate and the reason why they did the scene that way was in part to make it timely.
I had an unplanned caesarean 2,5 years ago because the baby (that was sunny side up) wouldn't fit through my pelvis after I pushed. When I saw this scène I was so glad we can have caesareans these days without dying.
I feel like some scenes like this, and in the last video, hit different now that I've had my first baby. It was an insanely easy labor and delivery process and a minimally complicated pregnancy. For which I am incredibly grateful. It's an incredibly poignant reminder that it could have been so much different for both of us very easily. It hurts my mom heart and it's why I hold my now toddler so close.
I want to, again, bring up the series Outlander to react to! In season two, the main character Claire experiences a (stress-induced) miscarriage in the 1740s. The show depicts all her stages of grief so well! At this point in the show, she has to deal with all of this alone because her partner is in prison. Later in the show she is pregnant for the second time and travels back to her time (around 1950) for the birth (which at that time we believe is a permanent decision). She goes into labour but is unwillingly sedated by a male doctor which gives her anxiety that she will lose this baby, too. It’s honestly heartbreaking but also so important and I always wondered if this sedation was a realistic or standard practice back then… or if there was a medical indication for that.
My grandma said they knocked her out when she went into labor in the 60s. She said it was fine with her because it was so painful. She had four vaginal deliveries, no c sections.
Look up "twilight sleep" on wikipedia. Sedation and medically induced amnesia was indeed a popular thing back then. It was still offered in some places up to the 1970s!
@@squidthing Thank you so much! Very interesting
the twilight sleep they did to Clair in the show was really creepy .
I had to take 2 months off after watching the first episode… it was just too brutal: thank you for reacting to this scene/episode and educating us! love your videos!!
A great show but man was it hard to watch while pregnant for the first time lol
Follow-up: I also want your takes re: Laena and Rhaenyra's births as well. It's a super interesting through line in the show. In general I think the show does a really good job of establishing the body horror of being a woman in that society.
Me -> I'm glad it was a boy because if it had been a girl she would have been treated horribly by a father who resents her for killing his wife and not even having a pen¡s..
MDJ -> The baby dies too.
Me -> Well sh¡t.
Viserys actually loved Rhaenyra in the book lore so they really failed problematizing his relationship with his daughter, he would never resent the child for something HE DID to Aemma. He's not that shitty.
Visery's adored his daughter and wife but in the world of the seven kingdoms he did need an heir. Did you watch the show? He chooses Ryaenyra to be his Heir anyway, He isn't the villain, but lost with grief at the end.
Unrelated, but the LED fetus light in the background is one of the greatest things I've ever seen...
I was wondering if you would watch this!
And that man talking to the king is called the Grand Maester aka the head doctor. In that world every wealthy Lord has their own Maester, basically the only people who go to college in that world. And the Royal Family has the Grand Maester
Please don't subject Mama Dr Jones to the other births scenes in HotD. Her reaction was making it a whole lot worse.
Gosh, you made me cry two episodes in a row. What you do here is so important.
My grandma was 16 when she married my grandpa (19), they were poor farmers from Lake of the Ozark’s, he had just returned from the Korean War. With the money he got from being a soldier they moved “to town” and he got a job with the electric company. My great grandma only agreed to the marriage if they would wait till my grandma was 20 before becoming pregnant. My great aunt almost died during childbirth, and the baby wasn’t expected to live, thankfully they both recovered, and she went on to have 2 more healthy pregnancies, births, and children. Grandma dropped out of school to help work the farm when all the boys/men went to war. She graduated high school after marriage, grandpa quickly moved up in the electric company, and they bought the house my daddy was brought home to just before grandma turned 20. She had 3 healthy pregnancies, and 3 healthy boys. She was the first female in her family to deliver in a hospital, grandpa kept his promise. I remember the smile on both their faces at their 60th wedding anniversary party, they were the same smiles from their wedding picture, taken “professionally” a few days after their wedding at great grandpa’s farm. That picture hung in their house, and every house I lived in growing up. Now I have both hanging in my house.
He kept his word???
That's absolutely amazing and extremely laudable!
He must be an amazing man. Your grandma is a very lucky woman.
yaaay thank you for reacting to it! I just listened to the video because oh boy, I'm still not over it, but now we all have our questions answered. Poor queen Aemma
I am a nursery nurse and help when the babies are delivered, but I very much thank you for not including the audio for the c-section portion. Those are the sounds you never forget.
This just popped up on my feed And I immediately had to watch it. I got so emotional watching the birth scene again. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for what you do as an OB/GYN. You are so appreciated and make such a huge difference!
Not a mom yet, but your content helps me understand and prepare myself for when I do decide to make that leap
My baby girl died in her sleep at 6 days old two months ago
I'd been watching this show during my pregnancy and couldn't imagine the pain of losing a child or your life in labor but it still bothered me so much.
Now I know that pain myself and seeing this clip was even more horrifying
I had a c section in 2014 it was terrible and scary I had to be completely knocked out so to watch this scene I was screaming at the screen
that wasnt a C section that was a I section 🤦♀
To clarify C section is called C because of the cut the do bellow the stomach to avoid the vital organ, this mothef..ckers cut the woman in half
Thank you for your Trigger Warning - I had traumatic births ( placenta accreta both deliveries) My poor husband almost had to raise our girls alone. Thank God for excellent emergency care and the blood bank! That was 39 and 37 years ago and I don’t need to see Triggers this late at night! Thanks again!! …. But maybe in the daylight tomorrow…so curious ….
I think the overturn of Roe vs Wade has made this scene even more terrifying. King Viserys was so set on having a son and his wife was in pain. Its eerie how reveleant it is now with the current situation in America and that so many people value the life of a baby over the mother. Pregnancy and labor is a battlefield that is going to see an increase in loss of life.
Plus the maester told him he could either try to save one or lose both. A comment above mentioned that in the times GoT was based on they had techniques to essentially kill the baby to save the mother. Visarys wasn't given that option and the maester could have straight up lied to him knowing in the heat of it all he would agree to this gruesome c-section procedure.
I think they meant they save the baby or kill them both if I remember correctly.
A POTENTIAL baby. That's the part that pisses me off.
Thank you so much for going thru watching that because your comments an reactions were wonderful to hear, and very informative. 💙
For some reason, your reaction made me cry even though I watched this scene with dry eyes the first time around. Violence is so normalized in tv shows these days that I didn't really process how truly horrific this scene was. I'm currently 6mos pregnant and watching this reaction paired with this scene really hit a soft spot :( Also... there are a few more very traumatic birth scenes in this show that I'd love to see if you explored, namely Rhaenyra's stillbirth.
Episode 6 of House of the Dragon has two birth scenes in it. One of them has the father offered the same choice and it goes... differently, but not really better.
You should do videos on the other House of the Dragon labour and delivery scenes as well. They are all hard to watch but you I have no doubt you can provide important educational commentary from all of them.
MDJ, thank you so much for falling on the sword and watching this. I admit I wondered whether it was similar to anything that actually happened in medieval times here. I've read about similar happening in texts about the Medieval period, but it's great to hear an authority on it.
Incidentally, one interesting thing to note is that in the funeral scene, it was Viserys' (the father/king)'s responsibility to tell the dragon to burn the funeral pyre (by calling out 'Dracarys' to instruct the dragon to set fire to the pyre), and he couldn't even do that. His daughter had to step in and do it.
After he instructed the Maester to (basically) kill his wife for the sake of the son he was absolutely sure would be his salvation, he couldn't even 'man up' and direct their funerary rites.
He's a morally bereft fool and a TERRIBLE king.
Note - with respect to the dude with the knife - he's a Maester. Maesters are sort of medieval 'doctors' who also do some pharmacology, alchemy, science, astrology, astronomy, and almost voodoo. They all study in one place and are very highly regarded (generally).
The women in there with the odd hats on are septas, who are like nuns, but also act as midwives, governesses and nurses. They do not, however, prepare the deceased for their funerary rites (that's done by the Silent Sisters).
Anyway, I hope this helps explain a little of the people in the room to those not familiar with the world.
Viserys had no obligation to light the pyre, he didn't even have a dragon for that WTF are you on about?
Huge GOT fan. Watched it the night it aired. I had just found out a few weeks before it aired that I was pregnant (first time), and I was full on sobbing. It only solidified the labor anxiety I'd already been feeling. Doing much better now, but there needs to be some trigger warnings in shows before these scenes.
Medicine had improved so much since even I was born in the early 80's! Imagine the care you're going to get now! It'll be ok. Update us on the baby's name.
I watched this without knowing what to expect whilst cuddling my 4 week old… my poor husband really struggled too as I’d had a C-section and it really bought back those feelings of hopelessness for him.
It is adorable watching MDJ take the historical aspects of this so seriously. Like, this series also features people riding dragons like horses, not to mention a future zombie apocalypse, so men being present at a birth is the least of her worries in terms of historical accuracy 🤣
RIght? Every time she said "In that time..." I was like, what time was that? I must have slept through that lecture in history class lol
I thought that whole scene, as violent, terrible, heartbreaking, and terrifying as it was, was SO WELL DONE with the flip flopping between the jousting and fighting, and the labor room. One of the few scenes of gore I have ever witnessed in media where I was clenching my teeth, my fists, and squinting was watching that woman be eviscerated without so much as a word, for a kid who doesn't even live.
We watched the whole season, and bless him…my husband somewhat understands why I found all four birth scenes so traumatic to watch, after going on the hysterectomy journey with me (and thankfully, that’s no longer a concern, no uterus, ovaries, tubes), but he will never, ever truly understand why I just went absolutely silent during every single one. Aside from possibly a “nonononono oh Jesus no”.
I am amazed at your dedication to your viewers to put yourself through that.
I had never even heard of this show, but that quote from the producer made me instantly tear up. And your conclusion thereafter I feel deeply. My mom is a Certified Nurse Midwife, and I'm a doula. Birth help access is what we fight for.