Comment on resources: SC2 has at least 3 resources, the third one being time. WC3 has at least 5, i.e. additionally hero experience (and e.g. mana of the heroes, ...). Not every resource needs to be like wood stone, gold, or gas, it can come in a variety of shapes, e.g. also space can be one as well (think of the board game GO)
Surprising that if I am not mistaken you have not mentioned the IMMORTAL: Gates of Pyre project, it seems pretty good as a StarCraft spiritual successor even though some of the design decisions in their current game version might be too simplistic, I am afraid.
A third resource can always be something more eclectic, like generated through buildings passively or some kind of point /level up system. Someone on their reddit mentioned time etc as a resource. APM is also a resource.
SC2 actually has additional resources, although of a different kind: Supply capacity and Energy (e.g. on unit and orbitals). These are 'localized' in the sense that they are tied to destructable infrastructure which makes them counterable by a focus attack of your opponent, rather then minerals/gas which are global and can, once aquired, only be countered by an attack on the production. I wonder if/to what extend they are going to experiment with that global/local distinction. E.g. have a global energy/mana resource for commander spells or localise something like minerals (don't think I like either of those specifically though ^^'). The consequence of a resource being directly interferable vs indirectly is somewhat similar to dotas direct creep denying vs LOLs indirect denying via zoning.
Starcraft and most RTS' has 3 resources Min/Gas/Supply. 3 I think is a good balance and adding a 4th might be a little much... Unless maybe you could consider towers as resource
Changed my mind. "split minerals in two with food and wood" is absolutely not true. The difference between food and minerals is huge! The first thing is there are many ways of getting food, but just 1 in getting minerals. Hunting animals, invest micro to get more efficient food sources like boars, building farms wherever you want!, buy food in the marketplace whenever you want!, build water farms with ships where they are more save against land units etc. give food a much more diversity than minerals ever give, even with yellow minerals! And even wood is a better resource concept than minerals, because wood give you a natural wall you can harvest so new possibilties for base entries could arise during 1 game which keeps the game more dynamic. And on many maps there are a lot more places for wood than for minerals in SC. So you have a lot of options for new bases and therefore for points of interest that can even change multiple time during one match! So these resources have a totally different quality in terms of diversity and dynamic in a rts!
something i hope they keep in mind when developing this game is lackluster computer hardware. i really like the way spellforce 3 looks but i could never buy it because i cant run it AT ALL. i hope if they make a banger game, it doesnt crutch itself on heavy graphics and post processing.
Just want to say out front 4.7 million is not AAA money, I don't think you can expect the next SC2 coming from them. You'd need about ten times the investment for that to happen, which is possible but I don't know how likely.
Why not go to an economy that works without Vespin-gas or Minerals? In reality SC2 has in fact 3 resources allready Vespin-gas, Minerals and Time! A war economy be modelled taking only time in account. So your economy could entirely run on time! Different built times of buildings and units. Your workers built units and building in a certain time. That's it. It's your strategic decision how you use the workforce and in what factories to invest. Also it is importan take supply in account. A supply limit forces macroplayers to engage! And suply can be made a more interesting game mechanic if units would need to be resuplied every 5 minutes or so. You could cut units of supply lines and besiege bases that can't supply all units inside...&c.
Without resources, unless you can only build one unit/ building at a time, the player's default would be to expand their workforce like crazy, then build as many buildings absolutely everywhere, then have those buildings pump out units day and night. It would essentially devolve into constantly making sure everyone of your hundreds of production structures was constantly producing to smash two enormous armies into each other unless some massive changes were made to building and training. What would stop players from building one structure of each tech tree node, then, once they get the production facility for the flying death fortress 5,000 building as many of them as possible and smashing two giant death swarms of flying death fortresses together?
"gold approximately corresponds with vaspin gas" Absolutely not. You have a big range of workers you can put on gold than you can put on vaspin gas which makes the gold resource more flexible, dependings on what you need more from time to time. In addition also here are a lot more possibilities to get gold like selling food, wood or stone, collecting relicts, research some technologies, building market cart or a more efficient variant of it on water. So to say these resources are like minerals or vespin gas is like to say a trabant is more or less the same like a porsche. The resource design of age 2 is just better than in starcraft in every case! So making the resource system of a new rts more like age 2 means the same like make it better. There are absolutely no advanteges of minerals and vespin gas resources in age 2 don't have!
i love how u wrote a giant paragraph explaining that gold and vespene gas are not comparable, and, even though u tried two different words (vaspin and vespin respectively), u didnt spell vespene correctly once
I dont like age of empires because of to much focus on economics StarCraft is for me better but yea i think worker Produktion should be automadet and increasing supply should be replaced through buildings or what zergs to with the Overlord
#1 Do not make blob pathing like SC2, i'm tired of every RTS since then having units all move in a giant gross easily dismantled mindless tight blob of insta-kill. be smart with unit movement, no more of this unified blob bullshit.
@@adams13245 I started with sc1. Sc1 is still the greatest RTS ever made and it's not even close Sc2 pathing is a total downgrade turning the game onto a hyper volatile snowball blob fest where it's all about playing a wow style active ability minigame in addition to clickity clack macro """mechanic""" busy work
The values where feedback is important from the start is not a good value! You can't pick the people that give feedback! It might be these peoples feedback will make your game sell bad! Better to create a game envisioned by one or a small group of people!
Starcraft 2 “well we can’t compete with that”. That made me laugh it’s so true and I never thought about it that way.
This man is playing like 7 different rts at the same time. Incredible.
alt+tab going hard
Comment on resources: SC2 has at least 3 resources, the third one being time. WC3 has at least 5, i.e. additionally hero experience (and e.g. mana of the heroes, ...). Not every resource needs to be like wood stone, gold, or gas, it can come in a variety of shapes, e.g. also space can be one as well (think of the board game GO)
Surprising that if I am not mistaken you have not mentioned the IMMORTAL: Gates of Pyre project, it seems pretty good as a StarCraft spiritual successor even though some of the design decisions in their current game version might be too simplistic, I am afraid.
A third resource can always be something more eclectic, like generated through buildings passively or some kind of point /level up system. Someone on their reddit mentioned time etc as a resource. APM is also a resource.
Nice video, I subbed. Looking forward to part 2.
SC2 actually has additional resources, although of a different kind: Supply capacity and Energy (e.g. on unit and orbitals). These are 'localized' in the sense that they are tied to destructable infrastructure which makes them counterable by a focus attack of your opponent, rather then minerals/gas which are global and can, once aquired, only be countered by an attack on the production.
I wonder if/to what extend they are going to experiment with that global/local distinction.
E.g. have a global energy/mana resource for commander spells or localise something like minerals (don't think I like either of those specifically though ^^').
The consequence of a resource being directly interferable vs indirectly is somewhat similar to dotas direct creep denying vs LOLs indirect denying via zoning.
Dream haven are now involved with the development of frost giants new game, which is so exciting.
Good video
This was a great commentary. Glad I found it. Thanks.
Very dense, very good.
Could you make a video about stealth and espionage mechanics in RTS games?
Cool video, hope to see part 2, you bring up points I would never have thought about the genre.
Also, are there any news about the Frost Giant game?
Starcraft and most RTS' has 3 resources Min/Gas/Supply. 3 I think is a good balance and adding a 4th might be a little much... Unless maybe you could consider towers as resource
I’d like to point out that vehicles in CoH2 are somewhat comparable to heroes in other RTS games
speaking of a third resource, i like how it is in company of heroes 2.
How do you feel about universal mechanics like in Fighting Games super meter which is used for universal mechanics on each character?
really good job on the video
Changed my mind. "split minerals in two with food and wood" is absolutely not true. The difference between food and minerals is huge! The first thing is there are many ways of getting food, but just 1 in getting minerals. Hunting animals, invest micro to get more efficient food sources like boars, building farms wherever you want!, buy food in the marketplace whenever you want!, build water farms with ships where they are more save against land units etc. give food a much more diversity than minerals ever give, even with yellow minerals! And even wood is a better resource concept than minerals, because wood give you a natural wall you can harvest so new possibilties for base entries could arise during 1 game which keeps the game more dynamic. And on many maps there are a lot more places for wood than for minerals in SC. So you have a lot of options for new bases and therefore for points of interest that can even change multiple time during one match! So these resources have a totally different quality in terms of diversity and dynamic in a rts!
something i hope they keep in mind when developing this game is lackluster computer hardware. i really like the way spellforce 3 looks but i could never buy it because i cant run it AT ALL. i hope if they make a banger game, it doesnt crutch itself on heavy graphics and post processing.
5:50 there is also a new classic style settlers game on the horizon
When’s part 2 coming??
Just want to say out front 4.7 million is not AAA money, I don't think you can expect the next SC2 coming from them. You'd need about ten times the investment for that to happen, which is possible but I don't know how likely.
Why not go to an economy that works without Vespin-gas or Minerals?
In reality SC2 has in fact 3 resources allready Vespin-gas, Minerals and Time!
A war economy be modelled taking only time in account. So your economy could entirely run on time!
Different built times of buildings and units.
Your workers built units and building in a certain time. That's it.
It's your strategic decision how you use the workforce and in what factories to invest.
Also it is importan take supply in account. A supply limit forces macroplayers to engage!
And suply can be made a more interesting game mechanic if units would need to be resuplied every 5 minutes or so. You could cut units of supply lines and besiege bases that can't supply all units inside...&c.
Without resources, unless you can only build one unit/ building at a time, the player's default would be to expand their workforce like crazy, then build as many buildings absolutely everywhere, then have those buildings pump out units day and night. It would essentially devolve into constantly making sure everyone of your hundreds of production structures was constantly producing to smash two enormous armies into each other unless some massive changes were made to building and training. What would stop players from building one structure of each tech tree node, then, once they get the production facility for the flying death fortress 5,000 building as many of them as possible and smashing two giant death swarms of flying death fortresses together?
"gold approximately corresponds with vaspin gas" Absolutely not. You have a big range of workers you can put on gold than you can put on vaspin gas which makes the gold resource more flexible, dependings on what you need more from time to time. In addition also here are a lot more possibilities to get gold like selling food, wood or stone, collecting relicts, research some technologies, building market cart or a more efficient variant of it on water. So to say these resources are like minerals or vespin gas is like to say a trabant is more or less the same like a porsche. The resource design of age 2 is just better than in starcraft in every case! So making the resource system of a new rts more like age 2 means the same like make it better. There are absolutely no advanteges of minerals and vespin gas resources in age 2 don't have!
i love how u wrote a giant paragraph explaining that gold and vespene gas are not comparable, and, even though u tried two different words (vaspin and vespin respectively), u didnt spell vespene correctly once
I wish they added flow economy like Supcom
Just subscribed bro
Isn’t supply a resource?
"rise of nations 2" *cries in rise of legends*
Genioo
I hope for a warcraft 4 type of game, and not a Starcraft 3!
I dont like age of empires because of to much focus on economics StarCraft is for me better but yea i think worker Produktion should be automadet and increasing supply should be replaced through buildings or what zergs to with the Overlord
#1 Do not make blob pathing like SC2, i'm tired of every RTS since then having units all move in a giant gross easily dismantled mindless tight blob of insta-kill. be smart with unit movement, no more of this unified blob bullshit.
You should see the pathfinding of StarCraft 1. StarCraft 2 is an improvement!
Then how should be the pathing be lol
@@adams13245 I started with sc1. Sc1 is still the greatest RTS ever made and it's not even close
Sc2 pathing is a total downgrade turning the game onto a hyper volatile snowball blob fest where it's all about playing a wow style active ability minigame in addition to clickity clack macro """mechanic""" busy work
@@spysc2721 like sc1 but without the goofy dragoon and goliath errors
Really not at all difficult to understand
The values where feedback is important from the start is not a good value!
You can't pick the people that give feedback!
It might be these peoples feedback will make your game sell bad!
Better to create a game envisioned by one or a small group of people!
3 months late but ok
games not out yet so really he is 5 years early