Martin Luther: A World Torn Apart | PODCAST | Part 5
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 พ.ย. 2024
- “I think there is not a devil left in hell, they have all gone into the peasants… smite, stab and slay all”.
Following on from Martin Luther’s dramatic abduction by his powerful protector, Frederick III, he had been secretly kept safe at Wartburg. There, he abandoned his priestly garments for good, and violently wrestled against the devil, in unorthodox ways…Meanwhile, the religious revolution that he had ignited was sweeping through Europe, and setting everything aflame. A sense of apocalyptic flux saw waves of destructive violence unleashed upon all the old customs and idols, as rebellions erupted throughout Christendom. Luther’s reformation had taken on a terrifying new form of zealotry, which saw him transformed from radical to reactionary. His determination to destroy the new reformers enraged and infuriated many of his old followers. None more so than Andreas Karlstadt - the former chancellor of Wittenberg university against whom Luther unleashed a savage smear campaign - and Thomas Müntzer; an apocalyptic prophet who sought to discredit Luther’s reputation. Then, in May 1524, there exploded an uprising in Germany that would change everything, as militant evangelical peasants came up against their Catholic overlords. A religious war had broken out at last…
Join Tom and Dominic as they discuss the radical turn of Luther’s religious revolution and his efforts to quash it, the groundbreaking Peasants’ War, his unexpected marriage, and the colossal legacy of Luther's ideas, and the Reformation.
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These Martin Luther podcasts are the best Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrooke have done on The Rest Is History Podcast! I learned so much and laughed 😂a lot, as well.
Agreed, completely. The episodes on the American Revolutionary War (or the War for American Independence) was fascinating, listening as an American, but this topic is mostly brand-new to me.
Nein!!
This podcast came up on my TH-cam feed a few weeks ago and I've been hooked. This Martin Luther series has been fantastic, what I've noticed (and what's refreshing) is the discussions and debates if they disagree...no yelling, no name calling. Fantastic show/podcast.
Probably one of the best podcasts around, amazed it’s not more popular. Brilliant duo 👏
Although, as a Scandinavian, I am well versed in Lutheranism, this brilliant podcast series improved my understanding of Luther and his times.
I'm looking forward to the 4 part Glorious Revolution!
In 1524 the religious turmoil was supercharged by the advent of the printing press and in 2024 the great polarisation over social justice issues is supercharged by the internet and social media.
I cannot agree more. However from these podcasts it appears that Luther was a deeply disturbed man prone to extremes. Now days he would definitely be treated for his anxiety disorders in his early life. What I find most interesting is to compare the situation in 1524 with today. As mentioned without the printing press AND the protection and support of the Political Elites ( for their own end) Luther’s ideas would never have gone anywhere. Also his ad-hominem (and scatalogical ) attacks on everyone and his claims of persecution, ignoring of the relevant legal processes etc etc sends shivers down my spine when compared to certain “leaders” today. Irrespective of Luther’s theological views ( which were by no means new .. Lollard, Waldesians etc had exactly the same views) it was the secular structure which ended up being destroyed… and plunged Europe into chaos for a good 200 years! Think about it .. the Catholic and Lutheran churches still exist today. Wittenberg and Saxony and the Holy Roman Empire are no longer !! What ironically also doesn’t exist is the University structure which Luther operated under , with most of those universities if they do still exist being a shadow if what they were in the 1500s. As mentioned the parallels between 1524 and 2024 are scary… one has to ask are the modern western universities not following exactly the same route?
@@Verita1975 Well said!
Absolutely superb. Thank you.
I new nothing about the guy, or any of this for that matter, before watching this series. I was left bewildered, devastated, and further disappointed in religion than ever by the end. Like so many people of history who changed things, if they could just stop at their height they would be left in high esteem. If Luther had stopped after that magnificent five years, I would like him and appreciate his work. Now I'm left as Dominic is, only worse I fear, because the carnage of his later years changed my opinion of religion from something necessary to something that I have lost all empathy and sympathy for. But, in the end, even that shift in my perception is a direct result of Luther. He is inescapable. Thank you for your fine work Tom and Dominic. I hope to attend your event when you come to Southern California this fall.
Biblically it is written that you once walked with God, ...not always
I think you miss the point. It's not about religion at all. It just happens that religion was the main "thing" of the time. The same kind of extremism happens with everything, like they show by connecting the events with the politics of the present. In fact, trying to abolish religion has led to equally bloody confrontations.
Excellent work gentlemen. Please keep it up I love the humour, brightens up my day!
THIRTY YEARS' WAR! THIRTY YEARS' WAR!
yup yup yup
just started listening to TRIH a couple weeks ago.... I have been eagerly awaiting each new episode. This Martin Luther series seems to be particularly good!!
Martin Luther: the truth of the Bible is self-evident! No wait, only self-evident to me!
"the bible is the word of word". Oh wait. Not it isn't
My legs fell asleep watching this and now I can't get up. Excellent discussion good sirs, Thank you. I hope you realize that you are giving public intellectuals a good reputation....
What a Podcast! i've been listening this podcast the whole day
Series was great HOWEVER. need an episode on his legacy, can't just leave it at 'the Nazis really liked him'. Need to talk about his impact on German philosophy, Marx, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and his filter into Asia where his individualism have contributed to the decline of traditional cohesion. 'Work will set you free' isn't a trivial doctrine, it drives the 6 day week 8am to 2am work ethic in China, Korea, Japan and elsewhere and it's social impacts.
Luther and his Scatology was somehing else, but what is truly abhorrent, is siding with the peasants to rebel, only to support the princes who massacred them, then there is the young disabled boy he recommended un-aliving, not to mention the influence of German Nationalism, anti-jewish stance, which all influenced the National Socialist regime as testified to at Nuremberg
An outstanding series. Thank you, gentlemen.
If you are interested in this period, the novel Wolf Hall is based at exactly this time. It (wonderfully) documents the effects of all this in the UK. It makes the novels so much richer to listen to this podcast as it gives all the European context.
I wanted to like Luther, but his antisemitism was horrifying to hear about
Thoroughly enjoyable and informative. Thank you.
Some of Tom's insights are fascinating. For instance, the association between the protestant movement and the enlightenment ideas and how the new atheists have inherent this framework of thinking and the rhetoric as well.
Great 5-part series.
Luther,Calvin, Munster , whatever their valid points just unleashed hundreds of thousands of unnecessary horrible deaths .... nothing they said was worth fighting about , not worth a single drop of blood..
Absolutely.
The Catholic Church was one of the largest inhibitors of advancement in our species history. The ability to question was caused by this entire revolution.
The harm Luther did to the accent of man has yet to be healed. War, injustice and famine are his legacy
Oh! The understatement!! So British, and so LOL. Thanks from Canada.
First comment wahooo big fan of the rest of history !!!!!
Yess lad
I'm surprised you didn't mention Luther's letter to a friend about discovering the "benefits" of marriage. "Fatal Discord: Erasmus, Luther, and the Fight for the Western Mind" - Great read!
I have fallen in love with this series!
I love this channel two intellectual play talking about history it doesn't get any better than this you guys are great you deserve an Emmy award on Oscar how long or whatever it is you guys deserve an award
If you have read Michael Lewis on German faeces obsession… it gives a window into this particular issue.
It was a joy to listen to this. I can't believe I watched 5 episodes of this, great work!
Fantastic work!
I can see a definite link between Luther and the sinking of the Titanic ... perhaps this could be the subject of a future discussion
Wonderful talk! Two fine men.
Brilliant 5 part series… I was aware of you both individually before discovering this podcast. Tom via other appearances discussing Dominion….and Dominic from his time in Sheffield. As a basically uneducated old man who left school early at 15 I got a lot from this…I really enjoyed the series immensely and can’t wait to dive into some of the other episodes. As a side note: Dominic’s question about the pre-occupation with the scatter-logical is a good one. There may well be a strong psychological element but it can often be a hallmark of the demonic…check with your diocesan exorcist….Postscript: The end segment on Luther and his polemics against the Jews is inexorably interwoven with the Holocaust and this anti-Semitic thought still exists (if mostly subconscious) like poison in the western mindset…Secular, Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox…and has risen again and again throughout history.
Thought:
If God is…
If God then sovereignly choses a people…The Jews.
If despite their constant rebellion against Him He offers redemption through Himself in Christ as messiah (and you shall call him Emmanuel, God with us)
If then this messiah, Yeshua (a Jew) is The way, The truth, The life, and this salvation which has come through the Jews is the most important life giving truth there can ever be…the source of rebirth, new life….it stands to reason the forces of spiritual darkness would seek to destroy or continuously poison the very name and nature of the Judaic root or cut of the flowering of it…faith in the person and work of Jesus….or as with the Nazis reappropriate it.
Excellent work 🙌
Wow! So good! I read and loved Dominion so this was the extra dose I didn’t even know I needed. Whether y’all discuss the Mongols or microwaves I’m in but I think a series on the history and evolution of the English language would be so cool especially since Dom and Tom have mastered it thoroughly. Y’all rock and thanks for all the work.
The sad thing about this story is twofold. Firstly, the corruption of the Church was in full view since the Avignon Papacy without a champion for Christian values. Secondly, the loss of the traditional sense of wonder, magic and folkish imagination that the cold breath of Protestant Puritanism brought in. The anomie of Modernity is all we have left.
did vikings have both of them? spartan society had major weakness being only one thing and not good in anything else. vikings had that folkish vibe and strong valueset from birth.
@@ceterumcenseo12waffle
As i listened to this last episode, I was thinking about the recently popularized phrase “luxury beliefs.” All well and good for university elites to tear down the Tradition and Magisterium of the Catholic Church, but the peasants end up paying. Today, over 50% of children have no father in the home. Ideas have consequences, thats for sure. That said, I think Luther would have welcomed mere reform, but instead, he got schism.
I think he didn't give a shit about anybody & anything but himself & his relationship with his precious God.
Love this series! I do think that describing "Evangelical" throughout is a little misleading, as a 2020s person hearing it will think of the Evangelical movement and its trappings, which didn't emerge until the 1700s. "Evangelisch", in the way Lutheran churches use it, is better translated "Protestant". The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America for example, is not an "Evangelical" church body. Confusing, but there it is.
"Frogs need storks". I have no idea what that means or why.
Maybe this is common knowledge for scholars, but I hadn't heard that the events of that peasants revolt (and I'm guessing the same applies to Munster) had been exaggerated by Luther's faction, though it makes perfect sense that they were. Surely it applies to other events in history as well.
Fantastic stuff!
Q is the novel that depicts all this upheaval perfectly and vividly.
Highly recommended if you are into Reformation.
I would love an explainer and history of the Russian civil war.
Thanks
Hi Dominic and Tom I am Chris Gregory an author of several books about modern popular culture including Who Could Ask For More :Reclaiming The Beatles and Determined to Stand:The Reinvention of Bob Dylan. I am a massive fan of your podcast. The Luther series was quite spellbinding. I particularly like your approach to SUBJECT matter, opening up areas that are not normally discussed from a historical perspective. I also very much enjoy the way you use
humour. I am a podcaster myself. I was particularly impressed by your podcast on The Beatles. The only thing that slightly struck me was your comments on Bob Dylan. I'm the author of books on The Beatles and Bob Dylan. I'm certainly an expert on Dylan as well as a big history buff. So I'm setting you a challenge! If you would be so good as to invite me onto your show I can explain the historical significance of Dylan to your viewers not only in terms of musical and poetic influence but also his political and social significance over more than six decades. Without him The Beatles would still be out there doing She Loves You and would never have created their late masterpieces! Dylan was also a major figure in the Civil Rights movements
He was actually standing behind Martin Luther King(don't think you've done him yet??) when he made his famous 'I Have a Dream' sppech. He was also, through his songs, the most articulate commentator on the Cuban Missile Crisis. There's alsomuch more to say of course about the later decades. Anyway I know you guys like a challenge and I hope you will take this up! I am contactable at chris@chrisgregory.org
My website is from the pen of Chris Gregory at
www.chrisgregory.org
which has lots of blogs and podcasts on Dylan and other stuff. I do hope you see this post and it would be great to make contact. All the best Chris
Bob Dylan is a total phony compared to the late, great Phil Ochs....
Re Luther‘s understanding of Sola Scriptura: Luther‘s wish was a reformation of the the theology and the practice of the Roman Catholic Church. Not its recreation on a blank field. Using scriptures as a measuring stick. Which is perfectly inline with Catholic tradition. Differently from the misunderstanding of sola scriptura by later evangelicals in the reformed tradition.
This is great love the way two naughty boys giggle a poo jokes behind history masters back. Really interesting too for an ex evangelical!
All true revolutionaries are conservative !
I’m incredibly tempted to tell “the rest of the story,” the huge issue being hidden. Is there anyone out there who would want to join me?
I can see why he was so worried about sin before. He seems utterly evil.
Can you do show dedicated to gerrard winstanley please. Can you use Christopher hills work in your analysis pls. Maybe even offer a critique if possible.
How can i get episodes 180 and under i love lisening to these😢
Sadly not all episodes have a video version, but they are all available on wherever you get your audio podcasts from!
Appreciate it, would be great to have a podcast on the life Tomas de Torquemada)))
No-one is expecting that 😁
I don’t know how they could misunderstand a person's theology so badly. Also, the part where Luther supposedly killed his dog is mentioned in Table Talk, but they never brought it up. Dr. Jordan Cooper has done a response video on this, and there are other scholars who completely disagree with the series. I think they didn’t talk to any Luther experts before recording this.
Have you thought of talking about the wars of in religion France as continuation. I would do Calvin first. Then you can go to Henri IV and the Valois. Or the Valois and Catherine. Lots for Dr Sandford to unpack. Murder, intrigue, incest, poisoning and astrology….Something the British listener would start to understand the foundations of the French Republic 200ish later and the word laïcité. For Tom a special Pantagruel……
Well done. Wish teachers would teach history as engaging.
Germans are still preoccupied with bowels, although to be fair, Germans that I know are all over 55. Similarly French people are preoccupied with their livers. I am preoccupied by the weather.
Luther was in almost every measurable way, evil.
Five entire episodes on Luther and not a single mention of his Small and Large Catechisms, where he flatly condemns the licentiousness that Dominic repeatedly tried to accuse him of, or the clear distinctions between the radical and conservative reformations.
32:20
you make a distinction between the situation in the Holy Roman Empire and in Switzerland.
But this distinction is actually historically incorrect.
In the early 1500s, the Swiss cantons were still a part of the Holy Roman Empire.
Yes, they were (partly) self govering - but so were all those other regions in the Empire.
Strong disagree on your analysis of Luther's motivations and beliefs, but I still enjoyed the way you were able to keep track of the Reformation's many moving parts throughout the narrative.
Yeah, I don’t think they did a lot of real reseach on Luther before recording this. They got a lot of his theology wrong.
Also, him killing his dog didn’t happen, it was exaggerate story for “Table Talk”.
When you mention Martin Luther I'm sure the majority of people nowadays would think you were talking about Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement in the USA - which sort of tells you in a nutshell of his historical importance - the fact that probably the leading human rights activist of the 20th century was named after him (Except for Gandhi)
Thanks guys, truly awesome. Perhaps provides fodder for the supporters of the 'great man' theory of history, ie, individuals have and can make a difference.
I'm inclined to think that the great man theory is true, if only because it is the Napoleon or the Martin Luther who finds a way to command the orchestra of competing historical forces at the tight time.
45:57 does anyone knows in which book I can find this story. I need citation
Your best bet is a librarian.
Marcus Eli Ravage asserts jews played a prominent role in the Hussite rebellion in his article "Commisory to the Gentiles". Quite an interesting read for gentiles.
Great series of episodes on this topic. But I can’t believe that amidst all this scatology, you missed the chance for a gag about Luther nailing his 95 faeces to door in Wittenberg...
Generally excellent presentation, however a bit too much linking all things political in the Western world as having some basis in the reformation. Just ignores the thousands of recorded political machinations of Egypt, Rome, Sparta, Persia, Athens, Sparta…..
All this sturm und drang about which version of mythology is the correct one.
I would love to ask Tom and Dominic if they think Donald Trump is a modern day Martin Luther
Cult leaders fit a very specific profile. And yes, many modern authoritarians in various countries and fields are absolutely cut from that cloth. they tend to ally for convenience but they're too Machiavellian to actually trust each other for long
Excellent series, but just reinforces the hilarity of Christianity and religion in general..
You guys are great historians but theologians... Not so good. You should get Alister McGrath on who wrote the definitive book on Luther's doctrine of Justification and written on Reformational spirituality
As regards to his opinions on Jews Luther obviously did not understand the Old Teatament or Revelations.
Off topic:Tom I love you but you seriously need to reconsider Sulla.
I insist: if Luther or Muntzer or Melancton saw what evangelical christianity and MAGA and Moms for Liberty in the USA has become... He would have stayed at the convent.
All that „evangelical“ christianity has evolved from the Swiss reformation, the reformed theology of Zwingli and Calvin. With its links back to Karlstadt and Münzer. Can’t blame Luther for that.
I guess were they alive today, living in the USA, Luther and Melanchton would join the Orthodox church. I dare say they would not consider themselves to be protestant.
It's not only XVI century Germans. It's till today that german swearwords are circling around defecation. Other nations like slavs are morę about sex, but Germans are all about Sheisse 😅
The problem with soula scriptura is that the bible was first written down two centuries after the death of christ.
If you read the bible, nowhere does christ actually say that and assemleage of his teachings in writing is necessary fpr redemption.
He does however found a church and appoint its head. He does institute a tradition of mass at the last supper. He soes found an apostolic succession at the pentacost.
It was the famous former Anglican who said, " To be steeped in history, is to cease to be protestant. In other words, that if the suporters of soula scriptura actually did read the scriptures they would see the importance of the mass and soula scriptura, and also see the fallacy of scripture alone.
Two centuries?? 🙄 The Gospel of John is dated around 90 AD, and that’s the last one. The Gospel of Mark, the first one written, is dated around 60-70 AD. I’m not sure how you got two centuries.
In reference to all the scatological language of the time, it would be quite interesting to parallel this with Freudian stages of development. There is a fascination with feces at the anal stage.
Freud's psychosexual theory states five stages of human development: oral, anal, phallic, latency, and genital. These psychosexual stages capture the main growth points of a person from infancy to adulthood and focus on different facets of wants, needs, and desires.
Was luther a swabian? There is something avout that part of germany or perhaps all of germany and scatological thinking.
They seem to constantly talk and write about poop.
Read mozarts family lettes. Every one seems to mention poop or farts at least once.
Can someone explain to me the unnecessary hate towards Virginia Woolf in this channel? 😅
I'm not sure what their reasons are, but Virginia Woolf does this bizarre thing where she pretends to be on side with the working class and finds all sorts of faults with her socio-economic peers, however in her books she never really gives working class characters an authentic voice and only reflects on these issues through the narratives of middle or upper class 'allies' (to use the modern vocab) that share her personal views - for example, Mrs Dalloway spends an awful lot of time ruminating on how the upper class never listen to the working class, but Woolf never gives any of the truly working class characters a voice in that text so its quite hypocritical (a good example is the treatment of Doris in the book, whose unfortunate circumstance is bemoaned, but only by the aristocratic Elizabeth Dalloway - in essence Doris is only there to valorise Elizabeth and, by extension, Woolf). It's been argued that Septimus (the other narrative voice in Mrs. Dalloway) is working class because he's poor, but really he is a member of the intelligentsia and he's highly educated, and beyond that he's just used as a device to parrot Clarissa Dalloway's talking points anyway.
Its a bit like how nowadays you see middle class 'empaths' moaning about the unfair state of the world whilst failing to see their words through to action. Her publishing house Hogarth press shows undeniable favouritism to her upper-middle and aristocratic friends in the bloomsbury group and she hardly goes out of her way to publish working class voices. She also had servants and writes about them pretty horribly in her diary, often going in on her cook, Nellie Boxall, of whom Woolf writes, 'I am sick of the timid spiteful servant mind'.
Whilst undeniably a great and talented author, she was a flawed character that ultimately lacked the courage of her convictions.
Mother! That Albert Steptoe-looking fellow is going on about arses and shit again!
I really enjoy the Tom 'n' Dom Show and because I'm a contra mundum kind of guy I often take an opposing view. So here goes. 1) I think Martin Luther was lashing out against authority because his father bullied him. Everything else from there was a side effect. 2) I think the proposition that Christianity civilized the Western World is wrong. As far as I can see the Christians of Luther's time were just as capable of being savage barbarians as anyone before them. And that after a thousand years of Christianity ! 3) I think a far more likely candidate for the civilizing of the Western World was prosperity, pure and simple. And then Christianity rode in on the wave so to speak. 4) So Jordan Peterson stick that in your metaphorical substrate and instantiate it ! ( Speaking of lashing out ! )
Also full marks to Tom for revealing what savage beasts women can be. Of course many men habitually let women get away with their bad behaviour and their nonsense so that they can get their leg over and so on. But Tom, as we know, is brave.
Agreed on all counts. and, since I'm technically female, I agree that women can be every bit as bad as men. Turns out all humans are equally capable of being utterly awful
Can't say I forgive Luther, but I can t forgive the Catholic church either. C'est la vie.
These events happened 500 years ago … it’s History. You can’t change anything even if you wanted to. In between then and now so much has happened … might as well not want to forgive Genghis Khan, or Moctezuma or whoever no point… why … they are dead, everyone they knew is dead, the world they lived in doesn’t exist. If you want to not forgive something try not forgiving “malaria”, “smallpox”, or bubonic “plague” those 3 have probably been responsible for more death, misery, suffering and change in the world than anything all humans that have ever existed combined!
Martin Luther and the toilet 🚽🪠 burgers of Elvis.
Luther seems to be a very hateful man.
...As opposed to the Popes and clerics of his day...?
@@d.c.8828 I'm talking about him and not comparing to others. The program is about him and his words are quoted.
He fits the cookie-cutter profile for a cult leader. I was initially rebelling against another, bigger cult but probably not improving upon it very much for the first few centuries at least!