Militant Atheist vs. Jeff Durbin at the Reason Rally
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- This is raw footage from the Reason Rally in Washington D.C.. Jeff Durbin and Luke Pierson of Apologia Christian Ministries were filming for a documentary now in production that features debates/conversations between Christians and Atheists. In this clip they speak with a man wearing a shirt that says, "Militant Atheist".
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Lol i love you're stuff Durbin. It perfectly demonstrates how PITIFUL and dishonest christianity is.
We're laughing at you now.
I see you've had to run like a child kiddy!
Run along KIDDY. The adults are talking.
@nick jones I am not laughing. Only those on the side of unrepentant sin, death and chaos laugh at Truth.
@@justin10292000 I don't think you really care about truth do you Justin?
Jeff refuses to interrupt a bad worldview from committing suicide; he let’s the argument live long enough to jump itself off a cliff. So effective.
Jeff believes that you and I are predestined to be saved or go to hell and there's nothing we can do about it. TULIP. But he makes compeling arguments.
@@Manbunmen65 I am a born again Christian and I most emphatically am NOT a Calvinist, but I can still admire Jeff's witness, courage, brilliance and truth.
@@Manbunmen65 you realize that Calvin's theology cannot be boiled down to 5 basic points, right? Furthermore, the letter I did not exist in the language he spoke in. He never taught this "TULIP" you speak of.
@@Manbunmen65 im not a calvinist nor do i know anything about denominations, but isn't predestination true in a way? God is all powerful and sits outside of time so He already knows everyone that will end up in heaven, so in a way some people are predestined..
But i guess that is just another way to appreciate the Lord and His wisdom. Humans are tied down by time so we CAN make a difference and try to save people through Christ when we are alive right now.
@@Manbunmen65 hey guys! Just a servant of Christ here who loves the Lord and my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. It really seems like you might be a little confused about Calvinism and I am open to dialogue with you about it if you’d like!
'Stardust' quickly became 'humanity' when it is convenient.
???????????
that makes no sense
Would you like an explanation Peter?
BULLSHIT satanic lies
life we now KNOW how life started and we are extremly close to recreating life from non life by recreating the conditions and we have PROTO-CELLS that can even divide =1 more step we have life from non life and proof 100% god never did any of it and even now we have proof because we have the cells and some of them can divide and all that is life can start because of the power to replicate itself...in trillions of tries we know sooner or later 1 single 1 will start...unlike God made himself from nothing, educated himself with nothing to do it with alone in the dark in absolute zero then gave himself magical powers then makes the universe all wrong so all can find it funny then turns into a monster wicked thing that by 1st century was rejected as bad god fake hypocrite liar... so the Jesus story was made that correct all that pile of septic tank of lies exposed... so they took 5 other stories and copied them into the Jesus story where jesus does zero new and all miracles and events all copied even being son of god making a kingdom... all of it 100% is taken from other much older stories about other people like ISIS Horus and many others raise the dead heal the sick make the blind see...ALL OF IT!
to even consider god as other than MYTH is satanism pure and simple... ether stop lying or admit satanism is what you live for... to oppose truth with ignorance and lies... or you would know by education jesus is a copied story and god that fears iron chariots = made by man.
like it or not i win and you will ether repent or not but ether way God is dead and myth and to say other is to lie and promote satanism against truth!
Well you believe in God and believe that Satan exists. Now I'll ask again Peter, would you like an explanation for my previous comment?
Jesus is God No, you claim a book is correct when a passage claims atheists are fools. No demonstration a god is actually saying anything.
Jeff has such a calm demeanor that I pray I'll possess one day.
Yes and no, ...
You can always be calm and speak wrong.
Pray for something Jesus possessed while He spoke with pharisees, and people of the sort.
Sometimes, and I see it with people, and myself, we will answer the questions while beating around the bush, and avoiding the direction the question was trying to lead to.
Does that make sense?
Discernment, ... and hope and pray the Holy Spirit guides your tongue.
@@TheMfrogg Hi, I like your comment. Do you believe we should speak directly and bluntly? Instead of beating around the bush trying to soften the blow? I should always pray that the holy spirit speaks thru me, I have never been able to retain the information that Jeff Durbin does.
@@chrissy1310 that's a hard question, Jeff durbin, and Frank Turek can answer that better then me, lol.
I sometimes get lost down a rabbit hole when people dont stay on task with thier question or argument.
I know what I know but sometimes it's hard to speak when I cant remember, lol
@@TheMfrogg That is wicked funny! Have you ever been asked a question and your heart feels it has a very intellectual answer, but your brain cannot process what your heart knows into words?? Happens to me all the time! Especially after menopause and not carbs to keep the belly fat off! ha ha Right now I am watching Jeff school abortion supporters, he is genius! I am trying to learn some good argument points, because in the thrift store a couple weeks ago, a lady and I were having small chat over shoes and she blurts out "I'm pro-choice!" and I wanted say "oh, so you love killing babies?", but to my own disappointment I just said "mmm oh." Hence the question, do you just blurt out your truth?? Funny
@@chrissy1310 watch Frank Turek.
But also remember, you can be smart and not have the Holy Spirit.
You can memorize the whole bible verse by verse, but without help, you'll misinterpret.
The disciples all weren't PhD scholars, some kinda were but you get the point, lol.
I always appreciate when people can stay civil, not raise their voices or cuss.
I agree, a good conversation is hard to find today.
I agree on your message it's always good to see people have a civil conversation and dialogue without any negativity or any negative afflicting words. Because we need to remember the fruit of the spirit Galatians 5:22-23
"Whats wrong with stardust bumping into/opressing stardust?"
.... silence .....
10 seconds later:
*_Wait, That's illegal!_*
Yup, no one on this earth, can ultimately live out the athiestic world view. Its wouldn't make sense
@@albertjames804 It wouldn't make sense.
“I’m a state machine” I don’t think he realizes just how true that is 🤔
I used to be an Atheist but then God gave me a new heart.
ad70preterist AMEN
I would like to be a believer but I just can't convince myself to believe, so I'd like to know how you did it? Were you an atheist because you were angry at God or because your logic then couldn't comprehend anything God related?
@@SATheKulture I would say that the journey is different for everyone.
My somehow abridged road is like: atheist for 15 years, raised by communists. Received Cubans that bashed religion. I never supported their train of thought, but I did believe what they said about religion.
At 19 something clicked about politics. I started questioning everything any marxist had to say. A couple of years later, 21 or 22, someone made me think about something that I never considered: "you might not believe in it, but religion provides benefits. Believing in God changes people's lives. Some turn from drugs and crime into good citizens. A pastor is better than a criminal." Due to that thought, I stopped questioning people's faith. I just didn't believe.
Another couple of years ahead without judging people's beliefs and relating with different people, some deeply rooted in their faith while I was in my political beliefs, that somehow aligned with their religious beliefs, but they had a foundation that my beliefs lacked.
I wondered what these people knew, because I couldn't understand how they were so smart and believers, because they had solid formation. Some were professors in politics, government, economy, psychology, physics, and they thought I was smart compared other people they knew.
The philosophers opened my mind to different paradigms that I never thought about. By reflecting I understood that there are things beyond what we can understand with a materialistic and objectivistic perspective, and they are real as yourself, such as human nature.
I already had my heart changed by the benefits faith can bring to a willful person, then my mind was opened to different horizons that were locked in my reduced perspective.
With that new heart and mind, I started reviewing investigations and I just couldn't stop thinking about how the questions I had that were answered by the works of Saint Thomas of Aquinas and Saint Agustin of Hippo, among others. Then, when reviewing Christ's resurrection, I understood that everything was true, and now I'm a Christian.
Hope this helps a little.
@@juancarlosmontero2617 I think you see the benefits/good that we get from religion and quite honestly I see it too, and to you it reflects God's love & mercy. Well the thing is I grew up in church, my parents were & still are Christians but I doubt that I was ever a christian because I always found it hard to comprehend the stories told in the bible but I do get the point they narrating though.
For me, I didn't become an atheist because I was hurt by things of the world and blamed God for it or that someone convinced me to be an atheist, I became an atheist by analysing things that were said in church and it didn't make sense and the more I thought about it, the more I found out some more things that debunkable then I started researching about my theories only to find out that many philosophers and scientists have written about 'em they concur with my theories. Things like free will, it is not possible if God is omniscient, you can't say he chooses what to see or that time is not linear to him but it is still linear to me though... Man there is a lot.
Nonetheless it's hard for me to become a believer or to convince myself that I am a believer, that has always been my struggle
@@SATheKulture my atheism was through reflection as well, just encouraged by Cubans instead of me looking for it by myself. I think I would have been an atheist later in my teens instead of my preteens if it weren't for the encouragement.
I'm not a Christian due to thinking that religion has a benefit for people, that just stripped my prejudice against believers. I'm a Christian because I believe in Christ's resurrection, but that was only possible by lowering my guard, raising my ear and opening my mind.
One of my best friends is the son of a family of Pastors, including a now late Apostle, and he was under a predicament like yours. He thought that his family made him reject God, and had to rebuilt his understanding of what he believed in, to conclude that he was raised by Christians with bad faith.
Not saying yours were, but hey, keep studying. You might become a great Christianity scholar or at least a really thoughtful Atheist to talk with.
"You're making questions out of nothing?"
What's the problem? Something can't come from nothing?😂
And your explanation is that a Giant Powerful God poofed out of nothing first?
Stephen Morrow no. You assumed that there was a time before God. God created time and is eternal, there was no before him and there will be no after.
@@avebellium6856 Why not just hold the same logic for the universe? If you reason that such a complex being such as God can exist eternally without being created, then there is no trouble in proposing the same attribute for energy. This would perfectly explain the universe we currently occupy using simple, observable phenomenon. If a God who creates universes can be eternal, then a Universe with humans creating Gods can certainly be as well.
In fact, we now know that achieving zero energy within a vacuum is impossible due to the chaotic and uncertain quantum behaviors at the smallest scales of space. Time can then exist as an emergent property of these fluctuations. While "Nothing" previously seemed like the natural, simple state of things, it turns out that "something" is far more fundamental and creating a state of nothing is incredibly more difficult.
@@mylittleelectron6606 Is the universe intelligible? Does its mere existence alone account for the necessary preconditions of logic and truth? Does the universe create or govern moral laws?
@@mylittleelectron6606
But I have seen several clips of high profile atheists saying that the universe did have a beginning. And I have also heard that it would contradict natural law for matter and energy to be eternal. Are those arguments outdated, did new evidence arise that suggests that matter and energy can, in fact, be eternal, or not?
I have to say, I was a straight up athiest for years(most a pity). Had I heard this at that time, it would have been years less. Thank y'all for your message.
So what credible evidence was supplied to you to convert you and convince you theres a god?
@@nancymunro4106 Ahhh just FAITH ehhh? No credible evidence. Just belief without EVIDENCE.
Is there ANYTHING that could not be believed on FAITH? Pixies, goblins fairies thor allah odin the flying spaghetti monster or tapdancing elephants on the moon?
I dont think there is -is there? Which makes FAITH rather PITIFUL.
Even worse its rather dangerous.
Millions of children have been indoctrinated, millions killed for apostasy, millions of children terrorised by threats of a hell that nobody can demonstrate and millions of decent people like homosexuals denigrated, beaten and even killed due to christian doctrine. Is it fair and reasonable to support and proliferate a religion that continues to do these things when all you have is something as PITIFUL as FAITH?
@@nancymunro4106 Its EXACTLY what you said. You were asked why you believe in a god and your answer was FAITH!
Based on YOUR unbelievable nay STAGGERING ANSWER i asked 2 further questions.
Please answer them.
Just FAITH ehhh? No credible evidence. Just belief without EVIDENCE which is what faith is even using the biblical definition. . faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
1. Is there ANYTHING that could not be believed on FAITH? Pixies, goblins fairies thor allah odin the flying spaghetti monster or tapdancing elephants on the moon?
I dont think there is -is there? Which makes FAITH rather PITIFUL.
Even worse its rather dangerous.
Millions of children have been indoctrinated, millions killed for apostasy, millions of children terrorised by threats of a hell that nobody can demonstrate and millions of decent people like homosexuals denigrated, beaten and even killed due to christian doctrine.
2. Is it fair and reasonable to support and proliferate a religion that continues to do these things when all you have is something as PITIFUL as FAITH?
@@nancymunro4106 So you've got NOTHING ehhh? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
I find it hillarious that christians constantly claim TRUTH yet when confronted with the actual demonstratrable truth they run like a child.
How PITIFUL does THAT make your claims and your religion?
Secondly, why would us DECENT people want the blessing of the most evil monster in all mythology?
@@nickjones5435 truly research both sides of the argument thoroughly. Try to find definitive proof against God. When you find the truth you will know what changed.
Just look at this man's face as he's struggling with the truth and the infallible logic of God, the bible and Christianity.
James M I wouldn't worry too much James, someday, you will be able to put a complete thought, on paper.
Hahahah excellent, you made my day!
Infallible logic of God, the bible and Christianity? That's a good one, had me laughing for quite a while.
"the infallible logic of God, the bible and Christianity."
Sure........I could get on board with that. But you might have to bribe me with a million dollars.
AsknotwhatUcan: Until you can demonstrate that your story is true, you can not honestly call it truth.
It seems to me that a lot of people are bothered with the Bible's claim about the goodness and kindness of God rather than with the existence of God itself...
Santa Escritura So do you think that god should be worshipped even if he is immoral?
To claim god is REAL is SATANISM
to claim life after life and not read and write so you can pass beyond death into the living is SATANISM.
Worship lies promote lies oppose truth =Satanism or theists...same thing.
@@Peterwhitlock Satan is another character from the same story. There is no more reason to assert that he exists than the biblical God.
Satan is a character that Christianity plagiarised from earlier religions.
La Fe de la glasia: The existence of a God (any God, not just the one that the bible asserts) is a claim which needs to be proven.
However the character of Yahweh, depicted in the bible is that of a petty, cruel, vindictive, misogynistic, genocidal manic.
The bible promotes slavery throughout, genocide, murder and the penalty of death for offences ranging from wearing mixed fabrics to being a rape vicitm.
A loving God would not even create a Hell, never mind allow people to go there.
The concept of infinite punishment for a finite transgression is far more diabolical than any of the other heinous acts that Yahweh commits in that story.
Jonathan Nicoll you nailed it really well there but the problem is Christians can’t see it for themselves.
Satan has people running blind .... smh..... Lord Jesus please come back asap
We do have to go through the beast system of the and much death planned on us by the WORLD GOVERNMENT 1sr as they await the return of the NEPHILIM and their NEPHILIM KING/ANTICHRIST/DRAGON 1st. That said I'm with you.
No we need more time for our fellow humans to turn from their sins.
AMEN!! I’m ready for Jesus’ return !!
If he came back we would kill him again!!
@@LeeRobertz that's actually untrue. His death was intended originally by God in the first place. God is over all things, even the evil he permits to exist. All events and all being are by Him alone. It says that Jesus WILL come back but it says nothing of him being killed again. You should look into the second coming and judgment day.
Atheists believe we are random matter? Talk about faith!
Not faith. Blind faith. Faith without evidence. Without truth
Atheism says nothing about believing we are random matter. Some atheists may believe that , but atheism is simply not having a belief in god. Nothing else follows from that and any argument that it does is just a red herring..
As a Christian, I enjoy talking with atheists and other skeptics who at least try to be rational and reasonable. This guy at least tries to be consistent in hiw worldview.
Unfortunately, I find that many in that camp refuse to be reasonable in any sense. They start by claiming science is on their side and appearing logical and scientific. However, when you debate them on that level and show that to be wrong, they merely resort to insults and ridicule. That's unfortunate because their showing a willful ignorance and refusal to truly pursue truth. They reject Christianity and theism not based on evidence and reason, but based on emotion and feelings. They simply don't want to believe for any number of reasons.
As a Christian, I came to faith through apologetics, research, and debates with people of several belief systems (though, primarily atheists/agnostics). I didn't really care what turned out to be true. I just wanted truth. The more I researched and questioned, however, the less I found that on the side of atheism, Evolution, and the secular humanist worldview overall. I increasingly found that on the side of Christ.
I encourage all people to think for themselves and form their own views, not merely listen to the views of others. Sadely, most people just believe what they're told by others.
Hey John, I agree with you. I would only like to bring to your attention something that you may have overlooked. I would just be careful to tell the truth about your salvation. It is God who saved you and gave you faith. Faith is a gift. Repentance is a gift. You say you came to faith through research, etc. Don't be ashamed to give God the glory. I used to say similar things and sometimes still do. I'm sure you already know this, I just wanted to point out how it came across to me. Take care
"For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy." Romans 9:15--16
@@chadh8357 Yes, salvation is by grace through faith. That is given as a free gift from God.
I didn't mean to imply that apologetics, research, etc. saved me. I meant that was the primary method God used to reach me. Some are told the gospel by a friend or family member. Some are reached by reading it. Others, such as with many Muslim converts to Christianity, come through visions or dreams.
That medium can be different for everyone. But, the actual saving grace and faith are the same.
@@johnc1014 I figured you meant that. All good my friend.
Great comment. My story is similar. God bless!!!
@@johnc1014 your light is still shinning bright today. Amazing, how God is using this evil platform (utube) to his glory.
I used to be an atheist for 12 years and it makes me so sad to realize the state I was in then.. man... to just think that we are not special, that we weren't created for a purpose just stardust floating around and sticking together to form matter.. never mind the fact that we reproduce. This is so hard to watch, he doesn't understand that he's just mad at God.
PaiNExoTiC I'm completely aware of what I'm describing, but one does not simply adopt atheism. There is a philosophy that goes with each individual atheist experience and a set of beliefs that each person holds to support their theory of no God. Nihilistic or not, without God there is no purpose for any of this. Nihilism is only one result or symptom of atheism.
Well, that's wishful thinking. How you feel about a certain natural truth doesn't change that truth, does it?
It's the biggest lie ever told by the biggest liar. If you believe then you live in paradise forever. If you believe the lie then things turn out worse than than initially thought.
Is it not possible this guy genuinely doesn't believe theres a god and holds moral values embedded from religion. But denies where it comes from? I think that's the disconnect going on here. The atheist can't or doesn't understand the very things he find to be moral are things embedded in the society from religion for a very long time. And thinks morality is just a natural thing not understanding really that its not and how we got here.
Idk god has to exist for morality to be understood and good. But it Definetly came from a belief of god which i think is crucial for atheists to understand.
Jeff is working so hard to save one soul..God Bless him.
"Atheism is rather in the lip than the heart of man."
Facts
No Park - Who said that?
@@Adam.Rushing Francis bacon 👍🏽
Theism kills people and forces a false demon Creator god and is responsible for all kinds of slavery and even is born on genocide of village after village in the name of your god telling them to kill babies animal and be happy bashing babies heads on rocks...kill your son if he shows you he is lazy and beat your slaves so they not get up for 3 days and that is fine as long as you don't kill your slaves you are good person.
so rejecting the LACK of evidence and IMPOSSIBLE CLAIM and IMPOSSIBLE to make work today attributes forced all creator gods back to myth...you need to be a liar to say your god is real from now on. WE KNOW you lied all along your god was real but we know he never was now. WE ARE THE HOLDERS OF THE GATES OF TRUTH and you are upset in the lake of fire that your lies are not able to cross the line of REAL JUST AND TRUE...your lies stay at CLAIM and is said false claim to boot. Computers get virus and Religions used exactly the same tricks to get exactly the same effects BUT YOU NOT NOTICE THAT AS INFECTED...can you even grasp you are brainwashed and have a virus of myth lied up in you as real?
I loved how Wayne said, "Primordial Oooooooooze".
Dammit. I seriously just wanna go right up to this poor guy and give him such a huge hug and tell him how much I love him and even then it's still nothing compared to how much his Father God loves him. There is so much pain in this poor man's past that he just doesn't even know what to do with it all. Father, please replace all that hate and pain and fear in his heart with Your love and absolutely inundate his life with Your light.
Caesar Roldan All of this. You could almost feel the pain.
Yeah, and he's a Pastor, you'd think a man of God wouldn't have that much hate in him. But the way he's so patronising to that poor gay man clearly shows his past has been difficult.
Sapien23
how do you know there are life forms on other planets let lone more intelligent than us?
+Sapien23 lol! Don't worry, u're a better human being than anyone else living on this or any other planet. Good luck with that lol
+spiderman4809 I'm late to the party, but I've got this one.
if God doesn't exist, and life occurred naturally, then life most therefore exist in other parts of the universe. given the sheer size of the universe (my own rough calculation using the ultra deep field imagine as a baseline results in 8 octillion stars, and given our observable data, roughly 1 in 3 planets fall into the habitable zone.) it is mathematically impossible that earth is the only planet with intelligent life.
so how do I know the life is smarter then use? because through the entire recorded history of mankind, one clear pattern emerges; human beings like destroying knowledge. many scientific atheist like to argue that it's only during the dark ages that this practice first emerged. but that doesn't take into account the burning of the library of Alexandra. and the practice continues even to this day. look at how many people burned by people who don't believe them. how many TH-cam comments are outright deleted if you dare speak out against its author. how many parents regulate what books their kids can read, or what shows they can watch, or music they can listen to; and not because of any fowl language, graphic violence, or sexual content, but because they don't with the "message" its teaching their children.
all we need is for those countless alien races to more about the pursuit of knowledge, then a show of force, or proving that I am right and you are wrong, for them to be light years ahead of us in intelligence.
man i feel for this guy, i literally am on the verge of tears he has been fed lies on what "the other side" believe
God bless you, Jeff!!! Would love to meet you!!!
@@WorldravenNevar who said anything about worshipping a man?
MANNNNNN! Pastor durbin is AWESOME! He is able to talk to anybody without screaming and yelling yet still staying firm. And he NEVER gets tripped up when questioned! He is definitely being used to reach people. I have been watching his videos for 5 straight days. God bless infinitely!
No he is not. If he was intelligent enough, he would go call the Atheist Experience or any of the Atheist shows to debate them.
@@carnivalwholesale9809 u r stardust and u r just malfunctioning so ur chemical reaction from ur brain actually doesn't matter😂
1:40 Jeff is so deep it blows his mind!
You won't convert anyone by blowing their mind. Jeff is blessed with a high IQ which is well above average which causes Jeff to talk down to people in a condescending manner what bothers me is Jeff knows it which causes me to question his motive.
@@denniscerasoli6209 Not necessarily true as I have experienced this personally. People do not like to admit they have been/are wrong about pretty much anything...it is a proven part of the human condition.
We reject new information routinely. This is a survival mechanism because we've believed this or that for our whole life..."and we're still alive and doing fine...so, the info we already had must be correct and this new info can be dismissed...." Kind of like that.
What happens in successful discussions/debates is typically (again, in my experience) is that both parties go home and think about the conversation. Then one side or the other (or both) see that what they have thought all along simply does not line up with the new information that was presented. This causes one to research their line of thinking and that is where change happens...but it takes time. These discussions are simply planting a seed for that person to think about later when their defenses are not up.
We plant the seeds, God waters them where He sees fit.
Suppressing the truth that is what Atheists are doing and this Atheist proves it, rejecting God but living like He exists.
Which god ? And do you even understand what truth means? truth is the degree to which a statement corresponds with reality. Atheists don't suppress anything, you really need to brush up.
Oh please, atheism is the active practice of using unchanging, universal scientific laws to prove how our universe is the product of ''chaotic randomness'. Also, atheists are so quick to chastise Christians for 'believing in fairy tales' while holding fast to the idea that frogs can turn into humans :/ Your world view even incites the very hatred and intolerance you accuse Christianity of stirring up; in blind faith you oppress a Christian by telling him to shut up the word of God, that the Christian opinion is some how worth less than any other human's, that religious folk are a blight to this world. Everything about your belief system is completely backwards to what you think you stand for.
Science isn't a problem for the Christian religion - even Darwin couldn't say he knew there was no God.
+Fred Nurke Do you believe in absolute truth?
Biblical Christianity , how so?
+Coyote In a worldview where everything is random and chaotic, that leaves us with logic being man made, truth is relative, love is just a chemical reaction. So do atheists live like that? No, they don't. They live as truth is absolute, when they say truth is relative they just have made an absolute statement, that is self refuting. A worldview that contradicts itself shows that the worldview is absurd.
No atheist lives consistently their worldview, this shows they can't but help live with God given values. Atheists live like God exists, so in other words they reject God, but accept the values that come along in a worldview where God exists. It is easy to live my worldview, atheists can't. So that is how the atheist knows God exists, we live in a obviously designed world and yet they reject that as well.
My left ear hears the truth, but not my right. 🙃
I thought it was just me.
BJandthe_Bear
I thought the same thing! Until a commercial came on!! 😂👍🏻👍🏻
He pointed out the inconsistency of his 🌎 view and still disagreed with the conclusion👀
You can tell that the pastor is having some impact on the person he's interviewing.
I pray that this man discovers the truth soon, and realizes he was individually created by the Lord for a plan and a purpose.
I doubt it somehow
There is no moral compass without God.
If you need imaginary friends and fear of eternal punishment to not kill everyone in sight than you are the person without a moral compass.
Lucas Romero If I have done something wrong, then the correct course of action is to make amends, and agree to not do that again.
How does the blood sacrifice of an innocent man 2000 years ago, somehow makeup for that?
And if I don't accept or believe in this sacrifice, how does that justify a "loving" god punishing me via torture for all eternity?
Lucas Romero also, what's wrong with lust?
Some Guy V In older times, in the old covenant, God had people make blood sacrafices to him by cutting up an animal and and sacrificing it to him. He would then forgive their sins. But then God made a promise to send his son. Jesus came down to earth and helped with moral questions, diseases, and even healed people from death. But that was not the reason he came. He didn't come only to teach and to help. He came to be te ultamite blood sacrifice. His death not only symbolizes the old sacrafices, and the forgiveness of sin, it symbolizes Gods love for us by sending his Son, who was in heaven, to experience the worst pain imaginable, and to be the largest blood sacrafices ever to be made. He covers all of our sins with this blood sacrafice
Some Guy V and sayin God isnt good because he's torturing you for eternity, is wrong. First of all, the eternal punishement isn't physical pain. It's separation from God. And God has the right to punish you when Jesus already loves you and devoted his life to you, only for you to ignore it, and actually try to draw others away from it. And even if I didn't know God's reason for this, and I don't know fully, I know he knows all and you will understand when you either, give your whole life to the best caretaker, or reject Him and live eternity without everlasting joy
Stardust would make everything irrelevant . So why have feelings . Feelings are of God as is love
evolution, that's why
@@smokinjoe4709 wut. evolution would have no feelings necessary, kill and claim your place in the hierarchy. kill everyone not like you and make your descendants have all power - remind you of anyone....
@@dogelife7901 nonsense - if you kill everyone not like you the outcome will be your own death.
Wrong. We are made of the same elements when stars explode. It is just a colloquial saying to demonstrate the commonality of the elements in the universe. We have feelings. All humans do. They are what we label specific chemicals interacting in our brain to make us feel good or feel bad,
Amazing how a simple question like "whats wrong with stardust bumping into stardust" just makes his whole belief system crumble
This right here is the problem with religious people. "If you don't know, then it must be god."
@@DanT-godofpain it's not that you don't know, it's that you logically can't explain it....
@@dogelife7901 So if you cannot use logic to explain it, you simply fill in the gap with "God did it".
@@DanT-godofpain The problem with atheists is "I don't know, but it is not God". That is like saying "I don't know anything beyond our galaxies but I know there is no vacuum there"
@@denisitele Actually, it's more like saying "I don't know where my keys are but I know a leprechaun didn't take them." Is that easier for you?
4:07 - Someone in Iceland here who does hold to the laws of logic! WOOHOO! God bless you guys and your work.
if morality is completely subjective, then beyond your own private thoughts, what is objectively wrong with what Hitler did?
Atheists have no solid moral foundation, therefore they should stay out of arguments and just go "have fun" according to their definition of the word "fun" in their existence. They choose to come and argue when they do not even believe TRUTH / REASON exists, since they claim we're here for NO reason / mindfulness, therefore a clear contradiction right there.
There's a reason why the scripture states that the *FOOL* says in his heart "There is no God." because to truly claim this, they must contradict sound logic and reason, thus making them a literal fool - basically on the level of the insane in a way.
@Alan Frias If you used your mind correctly to think before posting such nonsense, you'd know that convicts are almost *forced* into belief in a Higher Power when they're in prison because it relieves the pain of being locked up against their will for years / decades, or the rest of their existence. They did not get there because their religion told them to commit crimes and end up in prison, meanwhile atheism supposedly preaches morality (that's comedy to even imagine).
We need look no further than Stalin and other dictators as such to see that their atheism clearly led them to think they'll not be judged for their crimes / sins in the next existence, when they pass on from the physical world. Big surprise for them, their jaws are gonna drop when they find out how wrong they were...
Jay Kong nail on the head!!!!👏👏👏👏👏 that sums up relavantism!!!
Liberty and Justice I don’t understand in a atheistic worldview there’s no evil or good so why the hell are they complain. It’s sad that they cannot stay consistent to their worldview they have to borrow from the Christian world view
The morality of a god is no more or less objective or subjective than the morality of a human being. If there were a pantheon of gods, as in Hinduism, and each one had different ideas on morality, which is the objective one? The answer is that they are all objective, in that they all exist objectively, but they are all subjective, in that they are each subject to the god god who holds them. The same is true of mono-theistic gods. The difference is that there aren't any other gods to have different morals.
The idea that objective morality is dependent on a god is simply a contradiction. The dependence makes it subjective. Actual objective morality would exist in and of itself. The morality of a god is just like the morality of a human being, if perhaps a little better informed. You can claim that a god's morality is perfect but that's meaningless if your standard of perfection is that god. To say that something is perfect is to say that it could not be better but better at what? A god's morality certainly couldn't be better at being that god's morality, but nothing could be better at being itself.
Christians have a tendency to try to show that morality other than their own is not as good because it's not as good for human beings. Despite claims otherwise, it seems like what Christians really care about, when it comes to morality, is human well-being. Welcome to the club.
I'm not going to accept the supposed morality of a supposed god that I don't believe exists. As far as I'm concerned, biblical morality is just the subjective morality of the people who wrote it and their society at the time; the very thing that Christians rail against and yet expect us to accept. Morality that is advocated in the bible should not be disregarded because it's in the bible, but neither should it simply be accepted because it's in the bible.
Apart from anything else, atheistic morality is simply utilitarian. If there is no god then we are all we have, so how we proceed is up to us. I want to live and I want to live is a society that maximises the my happiness and that of others. Exactly how to do that is a computation far beyond our ability to perform in one go and possibly ever, but we keep on trying to improve what we currently have and, hopefully, learn by our mistakes. Many of those mistakes involve religion.
This man is hurt. God bless him so that he may love him self more!
Don't act like or call yourself a militant atheist. Or a militant anything.
Man I hate seeing people so confused. God bless this ministry! They do amazing work
Wow. So well done. I love you how stressed over and over again Wayne’s human dignity as a man made in God’s image. We always need to remember the reason for apologetics, which is to share the gospel in truth and love. Keep up the good work brothers.
Why do people feel sorry for the "militant atheist". Doesn't his shirt invite a debate? He's proclaiming to be a soldier of his religion.
Define religion please.
it took you a year to find this? :) I have a beautiful wife and a little girl and a little boy. I'm an incredibly blessed man. Anything you have "FAITH" in is a religion. Yes atheism is a religion.
Na it's part of it though. Marriage is sacred. Apart from Christ it's useless.
I am super curious. If we are star dust then when this life has ended for us why not just poof turn back into star dust? If the Bible were so wrong why would we turn back into ashes and dust the way God created us? If we were star dust why endure any physical trauma or pain why not just turn back into star dust to not suffer? Just saying. Praying God will be upon the hearts of believers to keep refuting this ignorance. Bless Pastor Jeff!
People are willing to believe almost anything that does not require them to repent of their sin and turn away from the lifestyle they don't want to let go of. The Gospel according to the Bible, is good news, but the good news is preceded by the warning of the Just Wrath of a Holy God. People love their sin, and until they are willing to call it what it is and turn away, they will hate that Gospel. The irony is, unlike what the 'world' teaches, trusting in Christ sets you free, free to be the REAL you, whole and complete as you were created to be. So many people seeking their identity, when God is waiting to reveal it to them, if they would only ask. It is a tragedy.
Amanda, I am not an atheist. In fact I am a Christian. When they reference "star dust" they are not talking about some magical material like "fairy dust" or some glittery stuff from a star. They are saying that at the moment when the Universe began the only chemical material was hydrogen which formed stars and then through the process of nuclear fusion formed all the other elements. As each star died it exploded and those elements it made during its life were cast off into space. Those elements then became the material that makes up the heavens and the earth and through ordinary random chemical processes became the chemicals that make up living things. To the Atheist those chemicals are all that exist. To us who believe in God and follow Him through Christ Jesus is the knowledge that we are more than chemicals we are also soul and spirit which will live eternally. When they say "STAR DUST" they are simply talking about all elements and material in the Universe manufactured in the stars.
Our bodies do decompose back into basic materials, aka stardust.
Amanda, we do, indeed, turn back to dust. Your own scripture says we came from dust. The difference is you guys believe you don't really have to die, that you'll live forever, in some state or another. If you sucked up to the correct god or gods, then you will be shown favor after your body returns to (star)dust; if you somehow did it wrong, if you angered the gods for your finite time here on Earth, you will be punished for EVER. Horribly, you're told. (Punishment seems out of proportion with whatever purported crime, but I digress.) Furthermore, you're taught, eternity in glory will never be boring or get old; it's all sweetness and light and hosanna and praise proffered to an apparently insecure and egotistical deity for a trillion zillion years und you vill luff eet!!
Atheists don't frankly know what happens after death. We also don't recall anything before birth, and since eternity (if such a thing actually exists) goes both forward and backward, the concept doesn't worry most of us. I personally suspect when my brain dies, my existence will blink out like a lightbulb; I'm OK with that. That means, since I have only one chance at making meaning with my life, everything counts. I don't get do-overs. I am totally responsible for my actions and non-actions when it would have been better had I acted. No one to blame, no one to forgive me but myself. I create my own meaning. Unlike what the Jeff Durbins of the world want to claim, I'm not trying to avoid accountability for my "sins"; I am fully, 100% responsible for my actions.
Keep asking questions, Amanda. Questions and the search for answers are how I escaped from rigid Christian fundamentalism (father was a preacher) into the eyes-open light of hard truths that avoided/avoid pat answers that were comfortable and wrong. It was a painfully long and difficult process; indoctrination from infancy sinks deep hooks into the psyche. And it has been worth the journey, because I'm (mostly) free from the toxicity. Good luck to you, in whatever form your own journey takes.
PAUL RATLIFF there is organization to life and it has to be organized in certain manner to carry out biological processes.. stardust and big bangs do not offer any logical explanation to the organization of life or biological processes happening within proper sequences. ..
Saying you are stardust is also a fallacy called a false dychotomy. What makes this logic faulty is the fact that you're not allowing for alternatives. You are in fact dismissing them without making a sound argument against them. For example suppose I say all is illusion and nothing exists but then you pour a cup of hot coffee on me and I scream in pain. Now if that pain doesn't exist then why scream in pain? So I have to take the pain into consideration. People who make such statements ultimately encounter a contradiction. If you are worthless and you will say you can make your own choices. That shows value. You value yourself. The contradiction there is that how can you have value and be worthless at the same time? These are 2 opposite ideas that don't go together. You can't say you are just like the dirt on the ground and say you are free to do as you like.
it's interesting how the emotional reason comes out and the label, militant atheist, the faux call to rationality is just a guise to hide a true emotional experience that has hurt him. that emotion from his childhood is what's driving him and keeping him from rejecting God
Jeff loves people. It shows, and its just the kind of discourse this world needs. Firm, convicted, and loving.
I just laughed too long at “you already did, wanna ask another one?” Lol!
"You're making questions out of nothing."
Yes!! that's the point
I am a Christian and I will testify that the vast majority of atheists are moral people just as theists are, I do agree one does not have to necessarily believe in God's existence to have morals, but I do say that atheism does not have a logical basis of why we have morality in the first place. I will say however that the greatest testimony we can show an atheist that God or Jesus is alive inside of each of us is not 'the next great argument,' but by the love we show people, I can say that we Christians have been known for other things 'being obnoxious, being hypocritical, being judgemental,' but it would be great if even if an atheist doesn't believe a word we tell them, they believe the love that we demonstrate to them.
Jesus says all have sinned. There are no 'moral' people!
***** To use the word 'morality' implies authority. Who, except for God, has the authority to make the rules for everyone? Conversely, if there is no higher authority than the human race, then everyone creates their own 'morality', which is really no morality at all.
Moreover, if there is no God, then, for example, murder is not wrong. It is only wrong because human life is sacred (versus, for example, the life of a mosquito).
As an atheist, you have no basis to say that killing a person is anymore wrong than killing a bug. Yet, know that Jesus Christ will indeed judge the world in righteousness.
***** There is no authority for morality? What, then, do you tell a person who hates people? He has you and your family at gunpoint in a McDonald’s.
Remember, no one has the authority to tell him he should not kill you and your loved ones. He then plans to kill himself. So, according to your morality, it is ok to shoot all of you?? His group made up its own rules, just like your group did. You cannot even say he is wrong.
That is why atheism is the worst religion on the planet. Your ‘Creator,’ which is Natural Law, does not hold its creation accountable. Since when is unaccountable human behavior a good thing?
No justice; no peace. I hope you find peace in Christ.
***** Wow! A person kills people in a McDonald's and you write, "I can't say he is absolutely wrong, maybe he's helping with population control." Now tell me, are you not amoral? You have no moral code, because if that is not wrong, nothing is.
This is sad! Who lied to you to get you to believe killing other people is not wrong? Do you hear alarm bells going off in your conscience?
I am kind of speechless. Reading these posts is like watching a slow train wreck.
Jesus said that if your eye is sound, your whole body will be full of light. That is, if you have healthy beliefs, if you know Christ personally, that's great!
However, he went on to say, "But if your eye is not sound, your body will be full of darkness - and how great is that darkness!" I think we are catching a glimpse of it here.
***** You know, I have had very difficult life myself. I do not know your story, but I was heavily abused as a kid. Very badly abused - over decades, lasting into young adulthood. I usually am not as candid on a public site, but my dad used to tell me how he would imagine torturing and killing me. That caused some problems.
Yet, it was pain that led me into the truth. Dad was an atheist, so I had no Bible training at all. However, I reasoned that pain had a purpose; it tells you to get your hand off the flame. Pain happens when there is a breakdown in the system.
I therefore reasoned that global pain meant that something was wrong with the entire planet. Find the problem, the breakdown of the system, and we all live pain-free.
That is what Christ is offering you. Certainly, while on this earth, we will all have pain. Yet, if you know Christ, it is a touch of heaven. You can know you are going to heaven just from knowing Christ.
I truly think he is just hurt because his struggle with homsexuality and the torment he has gotten because of it. And Lord knows what else he went through beforehand.
He uses the atheism point if veiw, 'there's no God' to cover up his hurt. It's pain. It's clear to see.
It would appear that Pastor Jeff studied philosophy in college...? He is able to follow the arguments of logic and reason with secularists
9:25 - he says it's the only way humanity can go ahead yet he approves and encourages a lifestyle that would end human race..........what
As an agnostic, This guy makes a DAMN good argument :)
Atheist but that is in no way pertinent to my statement
+Joshua Harting Josh I think he's just babbling! What even is his argument?
"Things that don't harm people "feel right" to to people because we are empathetic beings who don't like pain. " Nice. Try to tell that to Islam when they think they are doing "right" on torturing, killing people for not accepting while being forced to believe in their interpretation of what or who God is.
And how about saying that to people that practice Sadism???
Human beings are selfish.
"What feels right for them (for some) is according to what will benefit them and not others."
Therefore, your argument fails, as well.
tf have you actually read luke 19 lmao. good effort though. also "good people" preach the same don't blame the new generations with the past's mistakes and tolerance etc. yet for many like you, going back in time is like an unavoidable reflex. also, you seem to have some form of a moral spectrum but not entirely sure what you're basing it on. if you're going with the empathy-survival route. who's to say the minority of the stardust who seems to be "not fizzing properly" is in the "wrong" in doing what you would view as morally wrong. (i.e. steal) if the only basis is arbitrary development then superficial morals and ethics are meaningless in your view of society. much luv
show me those numbers
Jeff's arguments are that of a toddler I quite literally can't believe people buy these lines of reasoning. "You don't know, therefore I know all the secrets of the universe". Hilariously pathetic.
For Wynne to have that many favorable rolls of the dice to contemplate the state of his star dust is satistically absurd. It is 10 to the 264th power one protien asembled and folded correctly able to combine with other protiens as a simple single cell before it dies. The protiens enemy is time and the elements.
Hey brother, I know the point you’re making but I just wanted to let you know that proteins don’t have the ability to “reproduce” unless you were referring to the process of protein transcription. God bless!
Also, proteins are not autonomously “alive.” A protein is defined by a chain of amino acid groups that are folded for complex use. They can’t reproduce or die, but are indeed a very important part of life! Again, God bless!
@@trevorbavarskas3106 Correct brother I edited the correction. Thanks.
For the record, Mormon's don't use shock treatment on their kids when they find out they are gay. At least not the majority.
Loved it. Nothing really cant create anything. God bless.
Star dust....hhhmmm.......????? I am a Christian and very proud to know Jesus Christ in my life. I don't see how people can believe that we are from star dust. How can that vast earth just poof into existence. The complexity of this world and all the animals and tree's ,water ,air sunshine clouds and all the above,below and inbetween......my creator is God Almighty.....He is the beginning and the end.....the first and the last......God created all things that were and are made from the beginning.
Seeing Jeff love on people makes me weep. All you’re doing is telling truth 👏🏽👏🏽👊🏽
Hey kudos to the guy for engaging in actual conversation (even though I disagree with the atheist world view). Not often can you actually have a real discussion between a random atheist and a Christian without it resulting in name calling and rhetoric.
Good dialogue, the conversation was truthful and gracious, it seems like strongholds were broken down.
Theist always lie since they are too dumb to know they really are SATANIST opposing truth by lies god is real and not truth god is MYTH... so simple a line... one is pure wicked bad and the other is normal humans knowing ALL GODS ARE MYTH.
to choose jesus and have money in your pocket is proof you rejected jesus...he does not let his carry money except 1 and he did tyhat in life as the story goes as his example to YOU.. he worked for free and never for money and refused to even touch it with his body so bad it is to him... but hey satanist skip that part same as skip building the church and then think temple= church and not village we live together as equals because we built that way...oh ya you are satanists so you do not know how to build the church! Only my kind do and we are here to judge you all filthy SATANIST refusing to admit MYTH and refusing to see the kingdom of Jesus is not in his name but in a life of compassion beyond having nothing to give as examples to all times YOU DID NOT LIVE BY!
so satanist only way out for you is to claim god is myth same as all other gods.
then you be free from the lies and can lie up all the fake morals you want or even change read and write your life to life after life lies... we do not care! But say god is real we say YOU are satanist opposing truth like it or not! HISTORY IS RECORDING!
Atheism is the biggest contradiction of life.
+Hanover Fist Nah hit ain't. :)
yea it is.....prove your atheism..
Sir--many atheists I have talked with have said, THERE IS NO god!!! there was no doubt...you sound more like an agnostic then a hard core atheist...
Sir--okay thank you, I respect your beliefs. However I have, in the past, debated with atheists who said "THERE is no god"....your definition of atheism is different from theirs.
As an atheist I do not get to choose to "believe" when my knowledge is based on my understanding.
Therefore my Atheism is a non-acceptance of religious claims about their god and the nature and will of their god. Sadly for religions they do not grasp that my understanding required validation of evidence to reach that conclusion.
Therefore it is safe to say with certainty the religious god does not exist as its a strawman created by the religion. And the irony is one religion will openly say that about other religions too, because it is a fact.
So then you get special pleading that yea they all others are fake except theirs, that defies logic and can be rejected without defaults.
Therefore does a god exist? We have no way of identifying at this time what one would actually be, we dont see anything to seem to need one, there is no reason to assume one does, and if we take man creates strawmen of gods, we can expand this and you get man makes gods so there isnt likely to be a real one, but we could be wrong so we will for now drop it to 99% uncertainty, because we might find one, but we can expand to 100% it will NOT be anything like any religon current or past ever claimed.
"fizzing stardust" luv it Durbin!
I probably would of called it fizzing fart dust, lol but Durbins expression is better
Yes making up a magical god is an answer for everything....doesnt make it true
@Language and Programming Channel of course truth is good. I don't need a god to believe that. I want to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible
We have the capacity for morality from being tribalistic in nature and needing to survive as a species 🤷🏻♀️
I refer to them as evangelical atheists. Kinda helps point out the absurdity of what they do.
atheism is an interesting religion
DogeLife atheism is not a religion. It’s a non belief in god
I love that "Your making questions out of nothing"...lol
Great argument, I believe God has given you a sense to understand the lost. This man can only come away with the fact you may have disagreed with him you still loved him.
That’s exactly what Jesus Christ did with almost everyone he contacted during the short 33 years he was flesh. I’m 53 and can honestly say my impact pales in comparison of what Jesus has done.
Keep doing what God is leading you in the future. Love you big time my brother!
Poor Wayne, love him tho!
I can’t imagine being an atheist and constantly suppressing the truth. My brain would hurt. And I’d be living a depressed life without God.
Gentle apologetics done well. The hardness of hart and comments below only reflect Romans 1...
I just stumbled upon this ministry channel today and I’m so happy I did! You guys are absolutely amazing. I’m truly touched by your videos and the important work you are doing for the kingdom. Keep up the good work, love you!
I love this! You can’t argue against God and what He has shown:) Science and Faith go hand in hand. Science is the ability to study and understand Gods creation. Evolution DOES happen. We have too much concrete proof to say evolution isn’t valid.
I have to say, of the countless numbers of christian apologetics I've heard, the only two I can say are absolute garbage are the one's attempting to justify slavery, genocide, and other biblical immorality, and the presup apologetic. Once you think about it for 30 minutes you realize this.
According to Mr. Durbin, if the atheist worldview is correct then our brains are just fizzing. How does he know then, that the atheist worldview isn't correct and his brain, just fizzing, made him say that?
So if physical is all that exist how does an atheist explain air and radio waves?
T Saint.....
Good point
Are you really claiming that air is not physical or are you a Poe?
Not an atheist but air is definitely physical, ever felt the wind? Also, radio waves are electromagnetic frequencies just like microwaves and visible light. Energy can exist in both physical and wave form, as a certain famous physicist taught us with the worlds most instantly recognized equation, E=MC^2. In other words, please don’t actually ask this question to an atheist.
They are also physical
"Stardust"
Im Christian but his shirt’s kinda funny I’m not even gunna lie
Blasphemy isnt funny. You sure youre a christian?
This Militant Atheist is showing more patience, tolerance & respect then Jeff. When you keep talk over someone, like Jeff is doing, you are not showing love.
They found someone who cannot articulate himself well and jumped all over him like wolves. They could never have pulled that stunt off with a more conversationally competent person. These guys are nothing but classic Christian charlatans using this footage for their own means. Weak.
It is always amazing the lengths we will go to continue in sin and reject the truth.
Loving people more often will convert people than debating . Show them acts of kindness , share the gospel message and if they refuse , move on .
You said it best keyman keys!!!!!
How about also sharing the cavalcade of misery of the old testament as well ? After all that's where your 2 sets of commandments came from.
People don’t convert people.
What an interesting term, militant atheist. We never hear the Pope being referred to, as a militant deist, do we.
No, historically, violence on behalf of the catholic church was entailed, militant catholic would be redundant. It's a useful label for distinguishing between categories of athiests.
Oh, I thought we were agreeing. Sorry, something lost without tone, I guess.
This theists metaphors about stardust are not proving that a god exists at all. He's literally just found a way to drill back on one comment the guy made while not letting him explain when he starts to say that yes stardust after billions of years of evolution. Like the whole why does stardust care about this or that - is such a stupid argument.
What I fail to see is if laws of logic are "universal, unchanging, and necessary," how do you get to those laws by saying "God did it"? If these laws are such, then God cannot create them. God can only conform to them himself, just like everybody else, if they are actually "unchanging and necessary," so hypothesizing a God doesn't help. No entity can create something that is necessary-that's what makes it necessary. The premise that logic must be "universal, unchanging, and necessary" might be a correct premise, but you can't get to any God from that. Or at least, I don't see how you could.
+Walt Duncan Your evaluation and question is really good! I have wondered about the exact same thing. I think there are two possibilities: 1. God CAN only conform to universal laws of logic. The fact that these laws exist does not prove a God, but it does force us to consider and respect their authority which far exceeds human limitations. The fact that God exists, under this scenario, grant confidence that we can rely on truth and comfort to us as humans. 2. Clearly humans have limitations in both physical ability and mental comprehension. The second possibility is that a universal, unchanging, and necessary God who has a defined character of being consistent and rational created and set forth the laws of logic which humans recognize and respect. The laws of logic we know about may even be secondary to higher, more advanced laws of logic which are beyond our comprehensive faculty. Whichever way it is, the fact that God exists, creates a guarantee that we can rely on the authority of truth and logic.
Brian Griffith I'm not sure I understand what "relying on the authority of truth and logic" means. Nor do I understand what you mean when you say "it does force us to consider and respect their authority which far exceeds human limitations."
Why is trust in an authority even relevant? "2+2=4" doesn't require trust or faith or authority to be consistent. Mathematically, we can prove that it is consistent-no trust is needed.
And your second point is just a restatement of what my original comment doubted. I don't see it as a candidate possibility, for the reasons I've already described. You are just supposing a need for a god, when you describe logic and conform to it just fine without ever appealing to the notion of a deity. In the question of whether 1=1, I don't see any need to insert God into that question-and moreover, saying "well, because God said so" doesn't make sense of why 1=1. In the pursuit of logic, I see little practical value in bringing up God at all.
+Walt Duncan When we prove 2+2=4 mathematically, we are relying on the authority of mathematics. We are saying it has the capacity to prove a numerical equality. That is what I am saying about logic. We can only expect another individual to honor our appeal to logic, if logic is something that is outside us. Otherwise, the other person can simply dismiss it as our individual subjective preference. For example, we can only legitimately hold someone accountable for a crime if the "wrongness" of that crime is something that we are both subject to. Otherwise, the other person can say "I believe I had the right to break into Walt's house so how dare you arrest me." and the police should just let him go on stealing because they have no reliable basis to stop him.
I will try to clarify what I am saying in the second scenario: On a basic level, it is at least a theoretical possibility that God established laws of logic to allow for civil society among humanity to be possible. In our frame of reference - which I think everyone would admit is limited - we do not definitively know how God could establish truth and logic as universal and unchanging, but it is at least an internally consistent, plausible answer.
A scientific example which I think is helpful (it is for me at least) is Einstein and his research in quantum physics. Originally he hypothesized that all light behaved as a wave, but could not reconcile that with the discrete, packets of light discovered during his famous experiments. Therefore, he was lead to change his views and say that light can behaves both as a wave and a particle. Humanity has still not acquired a full understanding of the nature of light. Going back to truth and logic, we do not have a mechanism to prove the origin of a non-material concept like logic. We can not prove with absolutely deductive certainty that a God beyond human comprehension was the originator of logic apart from any previously excepted premises and have everyone accept our proof. It is a comprehensive, internally consistent answer though and if you do not accept it, what equally probable theory for the origin of logic exists?
Brian Griffith "When we prove 2+2=4 mathematically, we are relying on the authority of mathematics."
I don't know why "authority" is the right word here. I think you may be confused about what a "law of logic" entails...
You then bring up laws of the state, as though they are analogous to logical laws. The two senses "law" are distinct. Laws of your state or province are indeed granted by an authority, by the legislature to make the laws and police to enforce them. But laws of logic are different, because you can't actually disobey them, like you can disobey a state law. For instance you can believe that one apple and another apple makes five apples, but you won't actually have 5 apples if you wish to disobey the laws of math. Whereas you could actually break into my home, logically speaking. You can violate state laws, and thereby commit crimes, but mathematical laws are inviolable, so you can only pretend to violate them.
"that God established laws of logic to allow for civil society among humanity to be possible"
I think you are conflating "laws of logic" with "moral laws." The two aren't the same. It is not logically impossible to murder someone, but it is logically impossible for 2+2 to equal 5. Again, you can violate one kind of law, but not the other.
"we do not definitively know how God could establish truth and logic as universal and unchanging, but it is at least an internally consistent, plausible answer."
No. That's the point of my original post. It ISN"T internally consistent. One can pretend that it somehow makes sense internally that God can create logic, but practically speaking, we can't even imagine how it could make internal sense. You are just claiming that that is one of God's abilities, even though we can't imagine any way that an entity could create binding laws of logic.
As such, I don't think I have any burden to explain an "equally probable theory for the origin of logic," because as far as anyone has demonstrated thus far, God cannot plausibly create logic. I described why this is so in my original comment.
+rationalmind What's your answer to Jeff's "fizz" thing?
Morality, I think, is the most powerful weapon in a debate against atheism
Do your really think that you'd murder if it was found that there was no deity that you worship ? The Holy Bible is a cavalcade of immorality The absolute worst. Evidently you have net read it cover to cover like I have.
The funniest thing is, Morality is the biggest weapon in a debate against Religion.
I know why we have morals, it is not god, we evolved with morals because killing everyone you see isnt a good survival strategy.
Why does the objective morality have to be God. Why? It could be an infinite number of things, but no. It is your own God, duh. No. We need proof he exists before we use him in serious debate.
morality comes from people not from god
If you put the video on mute and just watch the body language of the two men, you'll be pretty much set on who's got the right end of the argument. He looks so broke, it's painful to watch...
Lol this guy actually equated the evolution with "human to elephant" 🤣 and we are star dust, and no our pain doesn't matter in some greater meaning, it only matters to our experience. Lol can't believe he strawmans like that, weak.
Jeff’s arguments are so unbelievably childish and pathetic but he sells the delivery so well.
its a real shame people actually beleive we evolved😢
+manlkke Don't worry, it's on its way out!
+rationalmind it's a real shame people believe in a random big explosion where planets were created and placed perfectly and somehow their is only one planet that contains humans.
***** wow! insulted already, what can i expect from someone who hates God. So where were we...oh yea! big bang, is that what you believe in?
We did. And still are. Read some science books.
Ummmmm, no.
1) "Law's" of logic, jeff please explain the difference between prescriptive and descriptive "laws".
2) What is the definition of value?
3) By what metric do you determine your faith to be the correct one?
4) What is the definition of faith?
I actually like watching this guy till he does this bs. He grabs onto some weird spot like stardust world view and never acknowledges any good point the other side makes or moves on....as if telling him and his points don't matter, mine do soooo Jesus?
I do believe in a creator but the stardust oppressing star dust argument is disingenuous. Even though the building blocks of our physical form did originate from exploded stars, those building blocks are now in the form of a sentient being.
"If God clapped his hands, wouldn't that made a BIG BANG?....... It's just a a theory." christian comedian michael jr.
I know there is no god! Until proven otherwise; how is that for logic, and rational perception?
+Josue Torres Where's your proof?
So far I'm hearing blind faith.
Where is your proof that there is no God then?
If there is no God and we were created by a big bang then there are no morals in this world. We are just "things" correct? So why is there right from wrong? Where did these common morals inside each and every one of us come from?
Waylon Matson dont think the ball is in his court to prove god doesnt exist. Thats like saying prove unicorns dont exist.
Josue Torres So if you don't believe in God then why are you waiting for proof? If you "KNOW" something doesn't exist then proof is not needed correct?
ugghhh as if Sye wasn't bad enough...attack of the Sye clones. The atheist wasn't equipped to deal with Syes word game nonsense...but literally everything the christian said could easily be refuted. I love the gross over simplification of "star dust". Pathetic.
refute it then, if it can "easily be refutted"
+infearxfaith16 To start the argument is circular...but somehow it's okay according to Sye his argument is allowed to be. Next noone can demonstrate the so called revelation from god. Also you rely on your cognitive functions to receive the claimed revelation. Those are just a few simple objections, I'd like to see what you say.
The word of God is the the revealed reveleation if you know the history of the books and the authors and the mathematical probability of prophecies historically comming true and how the entire word agrees with itself in context then despite then it would indeed objectively be true despite our opinion and self experience. and the revelation, it is revealed within our hearts wen we seek truth as well the void is filled which we all have. Can I ask you something? Can something be true and not true at the same time?
+infearxfaith16 listen I've been into these debates for a long time. I can easily debunk every claim you claim you just made. You offer nothing new, I really don't feel like going back and forth on arguments I've heard and defeated a million times already. Thanks you for your time, take care.
teggiano salerno listen bro learn to start questioning your resources okay? People believe in a whole bunch of crap but don't research deep enough, they say "well that makes sense, that's gotta be right" That's why people believe in evolution yet don't even understand who darwin is, his life, where HIS info came from ect. As soon as you start diving into the context of darwin and his little deciples you realize it's insane. So maybe whatever info your getting look at who it's from who is involved and the context surrounding them And the fruit and logic these people have produced through generations of their information. What do you think Christianity is? Do you have a good understanding of what TRUE biblical Christianity is?
I am reminded of 1 Corinthians 1:18. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." Atheists see the Christian worldview and the message of the Gospel as foolishness, we need to keep praying that they will continue to have personal revelations of the Truth that sets all people free. Amen
What's wrong with stardust oppressing stardust? What a stupid question. We are a particular combination of stardust that can think and feel. It doesn't matter what we are made of, oppression of sentient creatures is wrong because of the intent behind the oppression and the pain it causes. No one has a right to cause another unnecessary pain.
if you need to say i am saying this with love you are not. full of crap
When atheist brings up evolution (which has mountains of evidence), Christian guy says, "that's a presupposition".
Yet Christian guy doesn't see that his entire worldview is a presupposition. He presupposes that he has the correct religion, correct God & knows the absolute truth. Beyond ridiculous.
The Christian guy isn't denying that he holds a presupposition. The atheist didn't recognize that by referring to evolution that he was referencing his own presupposition.
+Keize Montoya a presuppositions doesn't need evidence. Evolution is based on one form of gaining some sort of knowledge (but isn't) whereas the Christian basis his entire knowledge on the Bible alone the word of God.
If I told you I was interested in accepting evolution as a fact, but I needed substantial evidence of species transcending into an entirely new species, from your mountain of evidence, what would you show me
+Keize Montoya you mean great example of hog wash wishful thinking is.
Keize Montoya Well, that was a very strange answer to a simple question. Darwin in his hypothesis said the fossil record should be complete of transitional fossils, and in 50-100 yrs he predicted that fossils should provide evidence- and after a 150 years it has failed to do so.
It's been quite a while since some one gave me that whole fish argument, so thanks for trying to bring it back. We do deny transitional fossils exist, because you can't find one. All we want is scientific evidence and you want me to pretend I'm in CSI on a 300 million yr case. No the world is not that old, we're finding plenty of dinosaurs with soft tissue.
The only thing that clings you to your religion of evolution, is your imagination.
Gotta say I didn’t hear anything really worthwhile in this conversation. Seemed like a complete waste of time to me and came off like someone simply trying to “out intelligent” another person. And yeah I know that’s not a real word but it falls right in line with this conversation! It was actually ridiculous the more I think about it. Just my opinion… in love like he kept saying. And that’s another problem I have. Always being so overly fake polite all while interrupting and arguing someone to death seems disingenuous to me.
noticed this a lot with atheists but sadly they are completly oblivious to it even though it is clear as day. The only thing that can convert them is the Gospel so it is always good to springboard into it when you have the chance.
Keep apologizing, JeffDurbin, for your faith-based belief in a cult of human sacrifice. Reductionist strawman argument is not convincing.
dogless10 exactly, every thing that Jeff Durbin argues is based on false premises.
andrew j wolf And your proof of this is????
Daryl Foster you really need to ask? Do you live under a rock?
andrew j wolf No, I just love vague comments like that with no evidence to back up the statement. You presume you're right and anyone who disagrees with you is a moron, yet you offer not once shred of evidence to support your statement.
Daryl Foster Actually I don't presume to be right, everyone else is acting as if they know it all and they have no evidence, these other idiots post plenty of vague and inflammatory comments
I don’t think the other guy should make any comments at the end. Jeff lays it all out nicely and in love and I think something is taken away with just a random question at the end.