Is BJJ A Cult? • An In-Depth Analysis
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ค. 2024
- Every martial arts deserves to be questioned if it can become a cult. In this video I take an in-depth look at BJJ and what aspects of it may fall into being a cult and why it's more often not a cult than it is.
00:00 Intro - Understanding Cults
04:24 Personal Disclaimer
06:27 Extreme BJJ Cult Example - Team Lloyd
13:35 Comparing BJJ and Aikido as a cult
20:22 The Creonte Phenomenon in BJJ
25:14 BJJ Against the BITE Model
35:18 Summary
• Article #1 on Loyd Irvin: www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/3/5/...
• Article #2 on Loyd Irvin: www.miaminewtimes.com/news/th...
• A letter from Ryan Hall: tim.blog/2013/01/16/the-dange...
• Recognizing warning signs of a BJJ Cult: www.bjjee.com/articles/recogn...
• Is BJJ a cult article: www.jiujitsubrotherhood.com/b...
For more videos on cults check out my new channel Critical Thinkers: • How To Identify a Cult...
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Welcome to the Martial Arts Journey TH-cam channel!
My name is Rokas. I'm a Lithuanian guy who trained Aikido for 14 years, 7 of them running a professional Aikido Dojo until eventually I realized that Aikido does not live up to what it promises.
Lead by this realization I decided to make a daring step to close my Aikido Dojo and move to Portland, Oregon for six months to start training MMA at the famous Straight Blast Gym Headquarters under head coach Matt Thornton.
After six months intensive training I had my first amateur MMA fight after which I moved back to Lithuania. During all of this time I am documenting my experience through my TH-cam channel called "Martial Arts Journey".
Now I am slowly setting up plans to continue training MMA under quality guidance and getting ready for my next MMA fight as I further document and share my journey and discoveries.
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#BJJ #MartialArts #Cults - กีฬา
Rule #1. If you started wondering whether you're in a cult, you most probably are :)
Good point
nah... people in cults have no idea they are cultists.... therein lies the problem.
@@Daniel-yo5es while initially true you only escape a cult because you start recognizing the cult like aspects of it.
Hahaha
True... 😂!
Every martial arts school I have trained with has some cult qualities.
@@UraniumStorm
What do you mean not being able to ask questions?
We cannot confuse culture and tradition with cults. Traditional martial arts, in addition to combat techniques, add cultural and traditional elements. This does not make them a cult. For practitioners of kendo or kenjutsu, for example, it makes perfect sense for the cultural elements that bring practice to the way of living and thinking of samurai, as long as the positive elements of such a way of life are recovered. Talking about jiu jitsu, I am Brazilian and I can safely say that the Gracies 'academies tend to be a cult since they fill students' heads with false information about the development of the art. At Gracie's gyms, people learn that the Gracies invented Jiu Jitsu, what is a lie. The Gracies purposely hide from the students the great Japanese masters who preceded the development that took place in Brazil. The masters of Kosen Judo had already cataloged everything that the Gracies say was created by Hélio Gracie. Kosen Judo was more developed than Jiu Jitsu here in Brazil, which only started to overcome kosen judo after the 90s. As the Gracies eliminate all historical, cultural and traditional elements of jiu jitsu to replace it with a family cult, so yes, Gracie's gyms are a cult. If the martial art promotes a culture, it is not a cult. If the martial art promotes a personality (or a dinasty like the Gracies) in a way its qualities cannot be achieved by the followers, so yeah, it is a cult. If martial art has a master-student relationship in which the student is guided to become as good as or better than the master, then I do not believe that we can call it a cult, however much its pedagogical, cultural and philosophical are strange to those who do not practice it. Talking about the Gracies, do you believe that they want their students to be as good as other members of the family? They didn’t have the descent to honor the masters who preceded them, so don’t expect anything good from them. They do not want jiu jitsu to develop and become a better art. They want jiu jitsu to be a family monopoly.
@@FoxyBoxery usually on why we train certain moves or in certain ways, asking what if questions about drilling moves were mostly off limits
@@UraniumStorm
And what happens when you ask the question?
@@FoxyBoxery usually he doesn't answer or he'll say just drill the move dont ask just do it
I often see BJJ as a "Cult" but mainly because it became pretty overhyped since its presentation by UFC and the Gracies.
This lead a bit to the marketing as "the best style for MMA or Self-Defense". And it lead also to the wrong believe of some BJJ-students, who only roll in BJJ-Classes, that they are automatic superior to strikers and in MMA, while they do not even gain experience in fighting strikers or in MMA.
But this is a common thing in all Martial Arts and Combat Sports.
Anyone who has the mindset of "BJJ beats everything" I direct to watch the Ortega vs Holloway fight. If you want a complete level of preparedness you have to have answers for the fight when you're standing.
Then Sakuraba said hold my beer
There are also a lot of people like Rogan, Jocko, Russell Brand, who advocate it a lot for self improvement development aspects and say how it can be the best thing for you etc rather than just self defense and sport.
@@c0mputergenius7 Joe Rogan also says BJJ people should "cross train" in Judo. I dont agree with so many things that guy says but this point I do agree with.
@@Matt2299 u can hardly call Holloway or Ortega “BJJ fighters” or “strikers”, they’re mixed martial artist max Holloway has black belt level jiu jitsu himself…
I go to bjj and mma mostly for the cult experience.
Thats sad.
I am Brazilian and I can safely say that the Gracies 'academies tend to be a cult since they fill students' heads with false information about the development of the art. At Gracie's gyms, people learn that the Gracies invented Jiu Jitsu, which is a lie. The Gracies purposely hide from the students the great Japanese masters who preceded the development that took place in Brazil. The masters of Kosen Judo had already cataloged everything that the Gracies say was created by Hélio Gracie before Hélio even started studying jiu jitsu. Kosen Judo was more developed than Jiu Jitsu here in Brazil, which only started to overcome kosen judo after the 90s. As the Gracies eliminate all historical, cultural and traditional elements of jiu jitsu to replace it with a family cult, so yes, Gracie's gyms are a cult.
@@philosophiaentis5612 The gracies are amazing no doubt, but youre right, they are a cult and try to replace the ancient Japanese culture of jiu jitsu with their own family legacy. The pretty much have stolen all credit from the real founders of Jiu Jitsu
Same. Learning to fight is a nice bonus :D
@@philosophiaentis5612 sorry but that's just not true lol. I don't even particularly care for the Gracie's, they call their jiubjitsu Gracie jitsu and do not claim to have created jiu jitsu. They do claim their jiujiu as their own subclass of brazilian jiu jitsu primarily as a defense against jiu jitsu practitioners who are either fake or crap in the art coming over to the states calling themselves brazilian jiu jitsu masters. Since they can't have any control over who claims themselves as a master aka black belt, by relabeling their own jiu jitsu under their name they then have the legal ability to out fakes.
It's an intelligent and for the time useful business defense to ensure the art doesn't get muddled with crap. Kind of pointless now because of their online course which I do think leads to a watering down of the art itself. But your representation of how they have marketed themselves just isn't true.
If you're ever told not question something, you should instantly question it. I ask too many questions and it's gotten me in trouble my whole life but I have no regrets.
Oh, then you must be a fan of plandemia and global warming. 🤣
I'm an English guy and wanted to take a moment to compliment your English. It's incredibly good and extremely fluent. I have always tried to learn a second language. Unsuccessfully so far. It's a great achievement. I couldn't do a vlog in another language. I'm glad that you have the confidence to do so because I really like your channel.
I have the complete opposite experience. My Judo club was all relaxed and with people of all ages and all walks of life. When I come to a BJJ club it is very macho and don't mess with the top dog. And for heaven's sake, don't mention the holy Gracies.
I've trained judo for many years and I could meet a lot of people and a lot of gyms. There were places where people do actually train for competition and others where all kinds of ppl train for hobby. In any of those places, I've never seen anything compared to my 2, 3 years of BJJ experience. I'm not saying I had a cult experience, but it's visible how ppl with no prior experience in "martial arts" change after the contact with BJJers. The way they talk, the slang, the "oss" all the time for no reason at all, the fightwear, the Gi patches, the rashguards, the "holy Gracies". Anyway, a like the ppl there and I'm too old to change for peer pressure, so it's irrelevant for me.
@@danieldonade4196 Yeah but you’ve basically just ripped on BJJ for having jargon and specialist gear. I think every common interest will contain specialist jargon and it’s own sociolect, like I wouldn’t think less of a kickboxing gym for exclusively talking about side/ front kicks, teeps, snapping calf kicks, and I wouldn’t rip on a Judo gym for using far more traditional Japanese terminology that they’re famous for. They also use fightwear in all the other martial arts as well, how is wearing a rashguard any worse than Karatekas wearing shin pads and head gear or Muay Thai fighters wearing foot wraps and armbands or a wrestlers singlet. Like I say every martial art has it’s own fightwear so I’m genuinely asking why single out BJJ for having it? Would you rather fight naked or what?
I prefer Judo over Bjj. Plus Bjj is an offshoot of Judo
@@MH-zg5yw Well not exactly, the history is too long. BJJ was born from Kano Ju-Jutsu, the martial art that became into Judo, but in a time when judo was not called judo yet (or not universally, at least).
Gracie jiu-jitsu still retains some elements of the original Judo, before it became a sport.
Being crushed over and over is not the same as true humility. It can help with a basic level of humility. It combats overconfidence. But think about students at an educational high school or college... If the schoolteacher only ever puts down their students you would call them a bad teacher. Good teachers help students understand where they always need to improve, but first they have to encourage students and make them feel capable. Life is more than competition.
Good point. I think it's important that there is balance between success and failure in most aspects of life.
100% agreed
I think any organized martial art has the potential to become a cult. The important thing is to recognize when it is starting to happen and stop it before it goes to far. It usually happens when an instructor/head of a style becomes overly idolized by their students (not always to the fault of the instructor).
This was brave of you to look into your own bias, Good research, I think there is some BJJ practitioners who think they are above everyone else (even though BJJ has lost against other styles) I do agree there are some great BJJ communities that can be transformational for people.
When you don't get invited to the inner circle WhatsApp group 😖
😆😆
lmao when you make a coment but dont realise normal peolpe laugh at you
Inspired by your story, I also went from traditional martial arts (aikido, kenjutsu) and started my MMA journey. :)
Awesome!
Way I see it, if something is repeatedly called a cult, there's a good sign that it is.
Like, I've never seen anyone (let alone many people, like I do for BJJ) ask if boxing is a cult.
Good point
If Mike Tyson made a boxing school, and decided to abuse his power, you could easily get a similar situation. One of the things that really enables cults in martial arts is some sort of "mythic status" or "star power" of the founder of that style.
I'm leaving touch base on the whole thing with the Gracie family, and I have heard Rener and Ryron Gracie actually encourage people to research different schools if they want to find a school that they're more comfortable in or if they're looking to be a competitive jiu-jitsu competitor versus whether they're looking for learning self-defense. I cannot speak for the entire Gracie family because there is sort of two branches and that is the branch of the Carlos Gracie who kind of went for the competitive sports and then there is the branch of the Helio Gracie who went for for self-defense. I've been watching the TH-cam videos for quite a long time and I've been a student of theirs for nearly 9 months and I do not see a mafia mentality.
What you call an emphasis on efficiency over hierarchy has a very damaging cultural effect. Here in Brazil it is full of academies that generate rough and violent men without any responsibility in the use of their combat techniques. This brutality and violence stems from the lack of a pedagogical, ideological and philosophical element in the academies. And this cultural poverty starts with the historical ignorance that is widely propagated by the Gracies. Here in Brazil martial arts have always been synonymous with discipline, self-control and respect, until the time when the Gracies became famous and the academies started to produce killing machines instead of worrying about forming complete human beings. Every father and mother here in Brazil saw martial arts as a means of educating their children. Nowadays it doesn't work like that in Brazil anymore, at least not in the Jiu Jitsu academies linked to the Gracies.
There's a difference between being a cult and having a culture.
BJJ certainly has its culture, and on the whole it's a very warm and friendly one.
It turns into a cult when you fixate on an individual or family, cough cough Graciemania.
Depends on the school and the students.
I was waiting for this video :)
Hi Rokas on a completely unrelated subject I wanna say thank you because I just competed in my W2W bout and the only reason I knew about W2W was because of you so thank you
Yo Julian! So cool to know that! Where did you do it? How was your experience?
@@MartialArtsJourney I did it at Scrappy MMA in Perth I was supposed to do it a year ago but my opponent did his knee in two days before the fight so now that he has recovered we were able to go ahead with it. It was lots of fun.
Western Australia
But is Ameri-do-te real?
Best of all, worst of none
That question is BULLSHIT!
The only non-BS true martial art.
It is the realest
Most definitely - lots of woo woo crap, latching on to useless techniques, hero worship, in groups, etc etc. If there’s belts and ranks, it will have cult like features. You don’t really see this in boxing, wrestling, lots of kickboxing. Traditional martial marts for sure waaaaay more curly, but bjj for sure has it (especially “Gracie jiu jitsu” bs)
Boxing and wrestling both pre-date Judo, JJ, karate etc. by millennia so I don’t see the point in referring to one as ‘traditional’ but not the other. What was wrasslin invented in the 80’s? Jk
No but on a serious note I think people are generally saying the martial arts with Japanese origins are more culty but I think that stems from the fact that the Japanese are more culty in general. Known for having very strict hierarchies in all walks of life involving high levels of discipline and very clear cut rankings within them and an unimpeachable structure of respect and humility that goes into them. There’s good and bad sides with both. For example it can be seen as bad that it’s more focal towards one instructor in ‘traditional’ ma and can inspire cult elements but equally you don’t end up with nearly the same amount of egos at those gyms as you see at ones that don’t enforce respect for seniority and just skill or athleticism alone. I feel I can judge both as I’m a former amateur boxer who saw my fair share of gyms who now trains BJJ.
@@dylanmorgan2752 Eastern martial arts have the element of Confucian filial piety, that the relationship between a government and citizen, a teacher and student, etc. should be like that between a benevolent father and an obedient son.
The problem is, once you get to be in the paternal position in such a relationship, if you’re a certain kind of person, you can forget that you still have a duty to respect and provide something to your subordinates, and that there is always, in fact, someone above you. Japanese culture, fo all its love of hierarchy, also has a strong sense of honour and duty. You shouldn’t (publicly) question those above you, but in turn you must never let your subordinates down, people even kill themselves over it, so there’s your own anxiety about teaching your students well to keep you from feeling like a king or a God, though I’d say there are healthier ways to maintain humility, and also that this often gets lost when moving into a western context & only the authority stays.
Some Asian martial arts have some amount of balances in place for a teacher’s ego (I’m thinking particularly of Karate since it’s what I’m familiar with), but they tend to be easy to work around, especially if a dojo operates outside of an overarching organization.
For example, there are many parts of etiquette that serve to remind the teacher that they must respect the student, but a sensei can choose not to teach their students about them if the students have never practiced the martial art elsewhere. In a wider martial arts organization, there are always masters above the teachers, they also usually take on more corporate or government like structures rather than totally focusing on one leader, there is of course a most senior member or a president of the organization but usually he consults with masters from various regions who in turn consult with the top black belts in their region, more like a parliamentary system. All this can serve to install humility, though even here, the students might have little contact with the higher ranking masters and so the local teacher’s ego might still balloon. On top of that regardless of any of this the senseis can avoid sparring with students to build up an invincible image, & anyone can teach an eager student not to question them.
Basically, what I’m saying is that while you’re right, hierarchy is more inherent to East Asian traditions (though to be fair, it’s inherent to European even post enlightenment traditions, westerners just don’t preserve them in their fighting systems), so is humility, by the nature of a hierarchy you always have someone above you as well (even the highest ranking humans in ancient and medieval Asia, the emperors of China, have heaven above them keeping an eye on their morality). As a result, the problem lies more 1) in the adaptation of Eastern arts into a western context and 2) in the individual teachers
keep up the good work man
Like I said before...any martial art can BECOME a cult...if the teacher seems good and if the students are gullable enough...teaching without pain and actual stressful contact, applying any technique to a non realistic situation, meaning there is no resistance during training...that can cause a cult, because in reality, NO actual combative opponents are going to just let you push, pull, punch, or kick them ..so you can execute ANY technique. A real teacher and a real training grounds no matter it be a gym, class, "dojo", whatever ya call it...there needs to be true resistance stress and pain... because in ACTUAL COMBAT resisting thinking and decisive action and pain..well that is the name of the game.
Im glad I found a professor who explains everything, tells us to take notes and video tape classes and techniques, has no problems answering questions and encourages us to ask questions. He also told the Origin story of Bjj then proceeded to say most of this story is unfactual then picks it apart and point out what was BS. I think I landed on a Unicorn of a school here. The most culty thing is we bow to Helio at the beginning of class.
What parts did he say was bs?
@@sliderx1897 That it wasnt Maeda that completed Carlos's judo training, it was most likely a student of his. Also the popular version of why Helio didnt start training until later was that he was frail and sickly but in reality it was because he was 6 years old, etc. Theres a few other things but those are some examples. He basically said in his oppinion by building a mythos, it allowed them to market themselves better when we were discussing it.
@@io3109 yea i can totally see that. Especially i always see old photos of helio and they say he was small and frail but in all the photos hes like ripped and clearly over 6ft
@@sliderx1897 Yeah we discussed that too lol, he was in great shape was a high end swimming *champion?* or competitor. The picture in our gym you can see this mans wrist were as thick as the width of his hands. He was no slouch physically.
@@io3109 i also heard a story where supposedly they ( Carlos and Helio) were visited by the emporor of japan and were presented with black belts by the kodokan but chose not to join amd instead do their own thing... not sure how true that one is either
Rokas, I'm a big fan so I don't mean to contradict you for the sake of contradiction but feel this is a flawed argument. In short is ANY martial a cult? No. BJJ is not a cult if you look at it as a system of grappling. Some schools could fall into the "cult" category (using the BITE model) but that has nothing to do with BJJ. The aspects that you explore (fear, hero worship, authoritarianism, etc) can happen in ANY martial art school but should not reflect on the style. The same goes for Aikido. Aikido as a dynamic system of throws and controls does not HAVE to be taught in a cult like environment. When we start any new system it's best to concentrate on the style and many instructors will caution against mixing things up before you have a solid base in anything but that's not "control", that's being realistic. I think if Aikido is taught in an open environment, where open competition and "play time" is encouraged, no it's not a cult. Same with BJJ. I think in any style that has real competition and non-cooperative testing of the techniques you have less of a chance of a cult type atmosphere forming. But ANY martial art can be taught that way. So no martial art is inherently a cult. Certain styles of martial art are more at risk of becoming cults but that has to do with culture and teaching methodology and not the collection of techniques that make up the style.
I actually think I said the same thing in the video, just using different words 😊 That any martial art is susceptible to becoming a cult, it just seems that some conditions in certain martial arts make it more or less likely
@@MartialArtsJourney True but then the question "is BJJ a cult?" Is a flawed one. But I enjoyed the video :)
Good honest look at the art of Jiu Jitsu. Its not prevalent but just like society you will have sick people in powerful positions. In jits I believe the positives far outweigh the negatives. People who train jits usually benefit on and off the mats. It can raise your self esteem. I believe the humility gained in the beginning is more prevalent than people that have overgrown ego's but you are always going to have rude people in any activity but i can say 90% of the people i have trained with are super cool and helpful. Again enjoyed the video.
I move out to another city since the pandemic begain, i started in the only one bjj academy in my town. They were weird, i knew since the very first day. It took me 1 month to realize they were a bjj cult. The instructor was a purple belt who demands to be called sensei, his students were like his personal bodyguards, he once said to me that i cant not watch youtube videos to improve my bjj style because is bad for my learning process, and he always demands respects but he dosent respect the students, if he wants to make a fool of you in front of everybody for no reason, he will do it. But if you treat him the same way, he will punish you.
I RUN OUT FAST
Yes it a cult going off my friend he thinks bjj unbeatable even though he got his ass kick trying to use it in a fight
I don’t think BJJ is a cult. The Gracie’s and ‘Gracie Jiu Jitsu’ on the other hand definitely are
I am brazilian and I garantee you that we are anything but revolutionaries... we just don't like to follow rules (I'm generalizing). One of the worst features of this nation, but to be fair sometimes (like in this matter) this may be a perk. :)
Any martial art can be a cult. I've either seen it happen or the potential for it to happen at every school I've been to. Any time you get a group of people together where there is a hierarchy, there is a potential for a cult. That's not to say hierarchy is bad. A certain degree of hierarchy is required for a proper learning environment to exist otherwise it is just chaos. However by placing some people above others in a hierarchy, the potential for a cult is created.
welp, now i'm curious if kendo a cult
Let me know what comes up after doing the bite model :)
Do not confuse culture and tradition with cults. Kendo came from the samurai sword art so it makes totally sense to bring elements of samurai culture, pedagogy and philosophy to the practice. We do also have to understand that traditional martial arts come from the east and they have a totally diferent way of thinking compared to the western. Traditional martial arts are an excelent bridge to make it possible to we westerns to understand some basics of east thinking and philosophy. I am doing a philosophy degree and I can say that the martial arts fundaments are very helpful to understand east thoughts on pedagogy, personal development, education and the notion of mind and body union. Here in the western people totally forget the notion of mind and body union so they are worried just with effectiveness. This is just a half of what a martial art is to chinese and japanese people.
I don't know let me get my Shinai and we will talk out back to see if a bit of discussion won't change your mind.
@@MartialArtsJourney from my experience it's a dojo to dojo thing, but for the most part, no kendo is more like soccer and rugby it's a sport and martial arts. most kendo dojos never talk philosophy you learn movements properly then after a while you put it into practice in sparring. simply put kendo acts more like a local gym if you ask them who you should do something one way or another the answer is normally either Judges or its more efficient.
On humility in BJJ, I immediately thought of one of my instructors.
He is a competitive black belt who is leagues ahead of the students in the class. After class, he takes 3 of us aside. We were all 3 stripe white belts (the most my school awards) but with caveats. First of all, all of us were heavier than him. Two of us frequently won tournaments and had some experience with grappling prior to starting, and one of us was a 230 pound wrestling coach who only still had his white belt because he had switched schools so many times. He put himself in a shark tank with the 3 of us-- 2 minutes with me, 2 minutes with the next guy, 2 minutes with the next guy, 3 times through, no rest for him, while we were instructed to go 100%. Of note, we were the 3 people with the most experience at the class who werent significantly smaller than him.
He still absolutely kicked all of our asses-- but he looked and felt human doing it. I had seen him lose before in a tournament but it was different to feel him fail, even if it was for fleeting moments in a roll he otherwise dominated.
It would be so easy for a martial artist on his level to lean into the gap between his abilities and those of everyone else and come across as untouchable. In fact, a lot of instructors at his level would end up seeming untouchable by accident just by being very skilled. My instructor, on the other hand, engineered a situation where he would look mortal, and what's more, he did so with white belts. Not only did that experience teach me about BJJ, it showed me an example of humility that i imagine I will mentally reference for a long time.
The problem is that on the altar of marketing they even sell themselves. I am a BJJ black belt, and now I am mostly doing no-gi. I tend to name it just simple grappling. I enjoy the focus is not on belt ranks, just like muay Thai. When something tends to stack in belts, gurus, stay away. I've studied koryu jujutusu in japan, and Aiki-jujutsu as well. I've embarrassed many high-rank students when I asked them to do live sparring. The teachers rejected always. The same in China and Japan I visited. they couldn't. In Thailand, an almost 70 years old man almost smoked me and offered to spar immediately. Only transparent high competitive sports with honest coaches. If you see a shadow or bull$hit just go, stay away from cults and traditional things, which are useless in combat. If you want to take elements from traditional martial art it is better to study wrestling and buy a DVD of that art and you've got what you need if indeed you need any elements that a traditional system has. I know a girl who was asked by her coach in MMA to offer sex in exchange to make her champion, this can happen in every sport but especially in cult oriented. In the past, a wrestler beat us, 7 BJJ black belts in a row, in an event we had. He smoked us, that's the truth about effectiveness. It's not BJJ better than others, it's good because of the live training like judo and boxing, and muay Thai. The other arts which not incorporate live training are like learning golf in order to learn how to fight.
I see BJJ as more of a counter-culture than a cult, but it's very much a cult in some BJJ dojos. I recall back in the decade from 2000-2010 seeing many men who had a bald head and practiced BJJ. They were all over the internet making comments on why every martial art other than BJJ is bad.
Now that counter-culture has transformed from bald guys to guys with beards who are into MMA and they don't necessarily say all traditional martial arts suck, but it's pretty close.
Thank you for the video. BJJ is not immune to being a cult, as there are definitely schools in the BJJ community that possess the destructive elements of a cult. Yes, we benefit immensely from pressure testing that is lacking in other styles of martial arts. Getting your ass handed to you in open mat naturally takes you back to the drawing board. But here is a though experiment; if regular aikido practice contained elements of pressure testing, and if aikidokas incorporated feedback from empirical / heuristic results from live sparring into their training, then do you think that it would still be a cult?
Here is my answer; I think that it would still be a cult if the elements of the BITE model (Behavioral Control, Information Control, Thought Control and Emotional Control) were still present. BJJ is no different, as this is a function of the personalities involved, not a function of the style. The leadership can foster a cult environment by exhibiting BITE behaviors, just like the example with Lloyd Irving. That was an extreme case, and it was particularly nasty. However, cult-like behavior may be far more widespread in the BJJ community than you may think.
It was common in the 90s and early 2000s that it was unacceptable to train in another style, let alone another BJJ school (i.e., Information Control). I have trained in BJJ in NY, MD, DC, AL, CA and NM since 2008 (I travel a lot and train as many different schools as I can when I'm on the road). I have seen some BJJ schools that exhibit cult behaviors, such as promoting a particular style/expression of BJJ while actively discouraging others (i.e., play a bottom style, not a top style), creating and sustaining a hierarchal organizational culture with statements like "I don't roll with white belts" (creates a social caste system of "untouchables", which lends itself to Emotional Control), and publicly and privately denigrating students who fuse other grappling styles into their BJJ style (i.e., Behavior Control). BJJ is not anymore immune to having cult-like personalities than traditional martial arts such as aikido. And since BJJ is the most popular martial art style in the US, with many people flocking to BJJ gyms, it is arguably more important to be vigilant in BJJ circles than in TMA circles because the number of people affected by cults is higher BJJ since it has the lions=share of the martial arts market for newcomers, and newcomers are more likely to be deceived then seasoned martial arts practitioners.
I thoroughly enjoy your videos, and I eagerly await the next one. Have a great day, Rokas!
In my experience over the last few decades (plus), it is very much a situation whereby the individual that runs the academy decides how the academy behaves.
The culture comes from the top down. Jiu Jitsu ≠ cult, unless the person responsible for the academy makes it so.
BJJ is like Disney- it's primarily a business that benefits and grows from cult-like fans. This isn't to say BJJ as a whole is bad and I've met a number of athletes and instructors that are level headed and very honest. But I do think the Gracies have a habit of gaming the system, cherry picking opponents and adjusting rulesets to benefit themselves and sell their martial art. To say nothing of schools that require you buy their branded gear, charging 3x what the judo club across town costs, etc etc.
Terrific video. Excellent analysis 🧐 of bjj world.
I'm Brazilian and you are right on you assessment that Brazilians do not like rules.
The reason why our flag has "ordem e progresso" written in it is because we kind of want some order, but not really.
Getting political we are living under a protofascist government that declares it wants order but it's making a mess of the country.
“Protofascist” 😂🤣 stfu
in my personal experience. I think that in BJJ we could talk more about fanaticism (very strong fanaticism in some cases) and not about a cult. However, that fanatical attitude can make it seem like a cult and it's sometimes fun to joke about it.
ah! And as other comments say ... many BJJ practitioners acquire an attitude of superiority by mastering only one style. Especially this attitude grows after some victory in UFC by submission.
I train in what works for me style. Weapons based because I enjoy weapons. My theory is that it is a cult if they don't allow you to train in other martial arts or looks down on other martial arts as inferior fighting styles.
EDIT: You are supposed to say I am Batman
BJJ can’t be a cult, a particular school can be and no doubt some are, however I think the people who tend to practice BJJ at the moment aren’t cult like people. BJJ may change in the future
I love BJJ but some schools can be cultish. Especially those schools with a strong Helio Gracie lineage.
Your accent is admirable. I'm Hungarian, and struggle sounding this natural. How did you do it? :o
Thanks :) I put a lot of effort into pronouncing things right. I've been doing it from early age so that probably made a big difference too
The bjj gym I am leaving was very much a cult. The gym owner actually had a 24ft mural of himself painted on the walls. He kicked me out and banned my family because we went to a free class at a different gym. Then he demanded everyone from the gym not to talk to me.
Doesn't saying that you practiced Aikido for 15 years automatically disqualify you from any martial arts or cult discussion?
The gyms that don’t teach leg locks are bad cults.
😁
You must have got this idea of ‘good cults’ from what seemed to me a snake oil seller and cult leader Matt thornton. Turns out my first hunch was correct as It’s been judged by others for a long time. When someone circumvents a question on and on, uses grandiose, vain speech and cannot help thrash talking others rather than demonstrate his/her true value, you have every reason to doubt that person’s knowledge AND integrity. I’m talking from personal experience, so I don’t mean this to be an attack on you. It’s on the bullshiteer MT.
m.th-cam.com/video/dwoFurteKO0/w-d-xo.html
@@felipecadavid6625 lol yeah man, I was making a joke lmao.
@@HiShay Sorry. My comment was directed at Rockas
I was once told that Gracie Barra is a cult. I wouldn't know though since I've never trained with them.
I love ikido. I love all martial arts. And I love cults. ❤️
We cannot confuse culture and tradition with cults. Traditional martial arts, in addition to combat techniques, add cultural and traditional elements. This does not make them a cult. For practitioners of kendo or kenjutsu, for example, it makes perfect sense for the cultural elements that bring practice to the way of living and thinking of samurai, as long as the positive elements of such a way of life are recovered.
@@philosophiaentis5612 kkjjkhhhXç8jb
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Some cults are bad for you. Some relationships are bad for you. Some foods are bad for you. Some are good.
The only issue I have with that is the presumption some people have that BJJ is always a good cult. It's often not. Thinking that it is, is usually part of the cultishness.
Cult in the sense of religious organization can be good, but in the sense of cult of personality I don't think it can be
Bjj is a cult mostly in America in my opinion .In Europe clubs are less dogmatics. It is difficult to desmise the cult mentality when some people believes Hellio Gracie has created leverage.
Thats what i like about the school i go to, they welcome people from all other schools, they don’t care if people train at other schools, they even welcome it so that ideas can be shared
So what happened to the whole costumed avenger thing? Was that just a phase?
Yeah, in a way you could say that... :) I learned a lot from it and I kept some things (very few) and left out many others. I'm coming back to the roots of what I can give to others now without doing any grandiose gesture.
Covid... covid happened lol
where did u get those batman wallpapers????
Idk about it being a cult. I personally train at two different dojos and both wish me the best on my journey. I am however loyal to Fight Sports but that's just cus I'm a huge Cyborg fan. I think if a dojo is expecting loyalty tho then it's for sure a toxic dojo. Also I'm not a huge fan of belt chasers, you could be black belt level but if ur not IBJJF recognized then u are not a black belt, then you see people promoting themselves nowadays and it's just ridiculous so watch out for who you train under. Oh and the best of BJJ expect instructors to be in shape, I know that's a huge controversy going on, but honestly if ur winning medals left and right like Octavio N'Latti then I don't think weight should be an issue. Honestly I think competing should be a requirement to rank up but that's just my opinion. Sorry to those who disagree, to be fair I never said u had to win, I just said u had to compete.
You now look like Forest Griffin's younger brother with the short hair
I've trained with Ryron and Rener for the better part of a year. They often point out that "the Gracies" is a little hard to define because there are tons of branches on that family tree.
I left a gym because of work schedule and a lot of people from there stopped talking to me. Cross-training was a no no there as well. That was pretty culty imo
"i was sceptical at first, but" is a dead giveaway of somebody not being sceptical.
Like, they threw their scepticism away to support a cause.
Another question does Gracie Jui Jitsui have any roots in it of the OCCULT?
In literally anything (with the exception of if you work for Military/Intelligence services...and even to some extent then) if questioning is not allowed it should be a HUGE red flag. I don't know about anyone else, but questioning is actually at the core of my learning. I also have a decent IQ so I tend to ask quite focused and specific questions in any learning capacity to understand very specific aspects of what I am learning.
I am also the type of person (I suspect we all are) that takes great benefit in understanding why something is done. I think with anything Physical/muscle memory related it can really help to understand the context not only in application but at a wider level.
Part of this is it helps any complete frame work that person is developing, it may help teach them things by inference saving time for the teacher/coach, and lastly it may allow the student/trainee to see things the teacher/coach does not, further expanding the art/discipline/sport/practice itself, potentially for all, but certainly for the individual student/trainee. I am not interested in instruction from anyone who does not either 1) understand this or 2) chooses to pervert this process.
btw my martial arts background is limited I did Judo for a bit, and very rarely have sparred friends who do martial arts , I also fought a lot growing up. most of my physical understanding out side of this is Football, the footwork , basic body types that it suites has many connections to martial arts interms of body mechanics. So I am no expert in martial arts, I have studied it in an outside way extensively and like I say I have studied Judo directly for a short time, but I do have extensive footwork understanding, and balance and structure, so I can see body mechanics in other things and have enough fighting experience to make some understanding (also love UFC and Boxing). I luckily have avoided the cult aspect of martial arts, but have been sucked up in the cult of music etc so I can relate to a lot of what you talk about
Interesting little story, I sparred my buddie (hardly even a spar more a play friendly "play" fight that amounted more to a semi Pressure test.)
He had been training aikido for 6/7 years, hes 6'5 i'm 6'2 and he is stronger than me, actually kind of scary strong (must be his estonian roots lool) hardy man,
It was all quite friendly but I found his technique got lost very quickly by either me using intent throwing a dummy attack and then using it to change to a different pivot/vector, or by literally just stopping for a split second. He seemed uber reactive, and that was good in a way but also felt like in a way he was always looking to redefine what was happening rather than define it does this make sense? It was a stale mate anyway, but he had 7 years experience 10-15% more body mass I had 1 maybe a tiny bit more years Judo lool
It was odd there seemed to be certain situations where I would be like "wow" and for a short time I would be off balance, but he would never use it, and usually end up in a similar position himself, where I would try to use it but fail due to my lack of skills. kind of funny really
100% agree. You should be able to question things. If you don't mind me asking what iq test did you take? If you took multiple which was your favorite?
Some schools, absolutely YES.
of course it is that's why i joined
The faulty history and faith in only the limited curriculum of BJJ is what makes it cultish.
My daughter trains BJJ. I am very happy with her school and her instructor, however there is definitely a cult like attitude toward the Gracie family. It's very much a Gracie Jui jitsu school rather than a sports jui jitsu school, which is fine, but even in their publicity they say they follow "follow the teachings, philosophy, lifestyle and fighting art developed by our, Grandmaster Helio Gracie". Tbh I'm not really interested in her learning his "philiosophy" especially considering his links to Brazilian fascism (google it), I just want her to learn to grapple and fight so she can defend herself.
The cult thing is making some assumption that because someone is good at hand to hand combat, which the Gracies undoubtedly are, that they have some deeper knowledge to teach you. I wouldn't expect Noam Chomsky to teach my daughter how to grapple, but I'd prefer she got her philosophy from him than from Helio Gracie.
Really great comment. I'm definitely with you and especially love this part: "The cult thing is making some assumption that because someone is good at hand to hand combat, which the Gracies undoubtedly are, that they have some deeper knowledge to teach you.". It's very true that many people expect great knowledge and wisdom from people who are accomplished in a single field
On it with you 100% cuzzo, minus the noam chomsky bit though
@kaz lemon We did consider Judo, but tbh, she enjoys it (the most important thing imo), the clubs around the corner from her Mum's house and the instructor is 100% sound, so she'll probably stick with the club. However I am aware of the potentially cult like features of it.
@much Sanchez Totally fair enough. The point is we should choose our politics/philosophy on the basis of what we think of peoples politics/philosophy, not on how good they are at fighting
Not to mention they had a ton of kids from different women and didnt give women black belts untill recently. Good martial art tho
I would say that its practitioners display cult like behavior.
They tout Bjj as the best and superior style, practitioners parrot similar claims about Bjj that they pass off as fact and they try to push it off on others. A cult and cult like behavior are not healthy and both are damaging in the long run.
The description of a cult as being "religious" is to do with Faith and the *suspension of rationality/objectivity*.
BJJ is the next TKD.
Hell SBG and Rener Gracie get really weird about it.
SBG pretends no one did aliveness before them.
Gracies still think BJJ wins in pure style vs style, when his family did little things to win most bjj schools don't do.
As a brazilian myself I can tell you us brazilians are much more friendly and warm. If you train Jiu-jitsu here (and in other parts of the world too but here it's probably more evident) we're always joking around, laughing and just having a good time. We have no problem hugging each other and men kiss one another with no problem as for us it's just people being welcoming. However brazilian jiujiteiros really demand respect in a lot of ways too (specially older teachers). The japanese are a lot more reseved, serious and aware of other people. So yeah, I think a environment where people are joking and having a good time is less likely to develop a cult where the teacher is all serious and plays with people's emotions. A lot of major problems with brazilian martial arts culture, that's not one of them thankfully.
What would u say are some of the problems
@@sliderx1897 Well, a lot of instructors are very close minded, some do not accept criticism, they might blend their political views into their teachings, some people feel like they can settle everything with fighting (Renzo Gracie himself said he would beat up France's president because politics)... Most of the problems come from the fact that some instructors are very close minded and want things to be the exact same way they want it to be and anything else would just not be acceptable. That's my experience though.
Although I agree that it's a fair question, I disagree with the fact using the example of using a dyfunctional team to portray bjj as a whole.
The blessing and the curse of bjj is to have started from a family, then developping to other families then teams where the sense of belonging is extremely developed. This is not to mention the rivalry across schools which created the basis of a cult-like experience for the students and participants.
I don't know if today if students are "allowed" to visit other schools and what kind of reception they will have as guests.
Those who are still active, feel free to chime in.
We cannot confuse culture and tradition with cults. Traditional martial arts, in addition to combat techniques, add cultural and traditional elements. This does not make them a cult. For practitioners of kendo or kenjutsu, for example, it makes perfect sense for the cultural elements that bring practice to the way of living and thinking of samurai, as long as the positive elements of such a way of life are recovered.
hi what do you think of master David Chaanie
Cults are about control that’s the basic mechanism you’re looking for.
Apple products, PlayStation and celebrity cults ... then following with 'not harmful' ... well yes, but no.
Joke aside, cult by definition is not bad, but 'fan' which is the short of 'fanatic' is actually always bad, just in the modern urban dictionary 'fan' is not used in the way it actually is.
Blindly following some agenda is always bad, which usually is the unspoken meaning by stating 'being a fanatic' or 'being in a cult'.
As long as you are aware of what are you doing and why are you doing it on your own free will (and you are considered adult), there is nothing bad.
"Cult by definition is not bad" This sounds like something a cult leader or member would say.
@@schibleh531 Totally not a cult leader, but you can join my 3-step program now online just for 99.99$ a month and a kidney ! Join us now for free ~brainwas~ mind stimulating audio files !
P.S. kidneys may not be yours, as long as it's being paid regularly
I can't stand cults. That's why I never stayed in one school for too long
Some camps are. Most aren't, like Wrestling.
Wish I would’ve seen this last year now it’s hard to quit
Yes. BJJ started out as a cult. There is all kind of shit out there on the Gracies. Helio and his brothers. Dudes were weird as helll. And today it's not just team Loyd Irvin. Most Bjj schools I've been to are like cults. I've had people tell me, Bro! Not my school, then they go on to praise their sensei - teacher - master - savior. Lol
You should look for what Karina Gracie has to say about her family, especially the patriarchs. They're not very good towards women respect.
You should also be careful not to switch from one cult to another. Nobody has all the answers, and that's ok.
"I never heard Hélio Gracie raise his voice to a woman. His daughters and granddaughters were always treated with care and respect, but as people of lesser importance. Disdaining women, fighters trained by him and his disciples ended up naturalizing forms of violence against women. Until they themselves became the aggressors.
The idea behind jiu-jitsu is that a helpless person can defend himself against an unjust aggression using the right technique, the precise movement. The sport that Hélio and Carlos created was meant to be an antidote against cowardice, but ended up producing lots of cowards."
www.uol.com.br/esporte/reportagens-especiais/vozes-no-tatame-relato-de-mulheres-agredidas-no-universo-da-luta---frutos-longe-do-pe/#page11
Original text in portuguese in the link above. She is daughter of Relson Gracie, granddaughter of Hélio, the founder of brazillian jiu jitsu and was a victm of domestic violence by jiu itsu fighters that continue training in her family gyms.
The cult aspect is just relative to the club are gym you are a member of. Some martial arts don't garnish much support so being a part of the group is less restricted. While training in different environments might be good it can also have flaws I mean ninjitsu might be a cult but then not everyone who trains in ninja arts is looking for notoriety are even conviction from others. I actually like the Idea of learning about espionage, mind manipulation, and even learning about hand-crafted weapons. If that's cultic then on one hand I could enjoy that type of training. On the other, I do not want it to rule my life.
Very intresting
Perhaps Aikido is more of a cult. I trained at a large dojo Aikido dojo in the UK, for 10 years. On a personal level some of the instructors are some of the nicest people I have ever met but some weren't. The not so nice ones would constantly run down others
My Aikido Instructor actually agreed that Aikido is a cult if we go by its definition. All martial arts are cults once they play some role in the way you live your lifestyle. Whether Aikido is a good cult or a bad one varies though
@@martinlee7875 I think one of Rokos other videos mentioned this. Seemed similar to my experience. Hope you're enjoying ur training
@@tomsheppard378 yea I’ve been practicing Aikido with Aikido Shinju-Kai in Singapore for 6 years so far. Most of the Instructors are great people, but there are some whom I have disagreements with too
@@martinlee7875 is that sensei Philip Lee? I was practicing at Ren shin Kan in Dudley I had a black belt .i stopped because it was far from home there is a boxing gym over the road for me so easier. My main goal is health and fitness, I'm not the type to be in an actual fight but martial arts are fun
@@tomsheppard378 yep, Shihan Philip Lee. I’m a student of both Sensei Alexander and Aloyseus Lee
I've found my BJJ gym to be very chill. Sure, there's a little sprinkle of Gracie worship (we have to bow to Hélio), but at the end of the day we're just there to roll.
@Rokas: You should get consider getting a degree in social psychology. You have good analytical skills, especially when it comes to the martial arts. I enjoy your content. Please continue your journey.
🙏
I think the true decision rather it´s a cult or not lays within the local community you are in itself, not in what context of what you are practicing is.
sinds most bjj practicioners think the gracie familly is god
looks more like a religion to me
BJJ folk are the frat boys and girls of the martial arts world. This coming from a bjj brown belt with 10 years exp.
One thing i notice in bjj it seems it takes control of people life i think its because the long time in belts and the amount of time they want you there a week the last school was a machado and if i missed one week they give. You shit
Can you do a video on Varma Kalai sometime there Rokas san?
And my reason for training could be considered cult-like because of the demand for obedience because of the techniques that we learn because I am a part of a clan of people that train and we train for service, but there are many aspects of the training that is for the better anyways.
I agree with what you are saying, I see from the outside, but that don't mean much, certainly is an online cult of peeps who are obsessed with trashing other arts/styles/ traditions. Which is a shame
BJJ is a cult. It is basically arm locks added to wrestling and in mma fights they punch when they are mounted. It's not a cultural traditional cult, but a modern one. Many BJJ groups hate wrestlers not without their obvious motives. In the beginning, everybody knows, The UFC 1 was not set up fights, but the invited fighters were not the best on their arts, while GracieJJ practitioners where in hard training. The name GracieJJ basically was changed when Gracie members started being beat by other Brazilians who practiced JJ ( check Wallid Smail vs Royce Grace ). (The Gracie UFC Conspiracy )
Cults, they are everywhere.
Yes. They think they know how to fight a REAL fight but in reality Gracie are people that do IF they're taught properly
Yes in some way it is. School I train in for sure acts like a cult in one way or another. It's a big school, big name, probably one of the biggest and yea u probably know which school I'm talking about but it's the only school in town and good side is people are actually nice, it's a good team and well main goal is knowledge, not what it says on the board when you enter the place (that board is ridiculous though).. :D
What's wrong with the BJJ Kool-aid?? Must be the Brazilian supplements, Acai, and everyday Porrada!
DId you ever get your blue belt? i havent seen your videos in while, wondering if you ever gained a reasonable level of skill?
Blue belt it is
Congrats, keep it up!
Lol I’m just impressed with how many ppl in the comments feel qualified to just drop broad philosophical rules “if you see this, then this”
BJJ isn't a cult! It's an addiction.
HI Rokas Ben following your jurney for quite some time. the creante ( traitor) thing was realy bad in the early days. not so bad any more.. you need to read a book called opening the closed guard by robert drysdale . it breaks down the history of BJJ. you will have a new thought of heilo and Rickson.. i mean i hate saying it but man those two charcters are kinda close to being cult leaders.. ex[ecult recently Rickson has ben saying some very crazy things about bjj and who can be promoted and who :owns BJJ" idk you gotta read that rokas.. its great. I went from hating the founders of BJJ to understanding the whys and whos and hows.. idk it was an amazing book..
Sounds very interesting. What crazy things did Rickson say specifically?
@@MartialArtsJourney he spoke about his philosophy on invisible jiu-jitsu which makes sense but he acts like he created it, when jiu jitsu is really comes from judo. and he also talked about how today bjj black belts are like karate black belts all soft. i feal bad because Rickson is like the best his documentary "choke" inspired me to train, but idk he did an intervew with Marcelo Alonso on May 25, 2020 and he went into alot of stuff and it just feals extremely outdated and extremely Bias torwds sport jiu jitsu.i always hated the sport vs self defense argument I think it was carlos gracie who said it best Carlos Gracie Jr: ‘Sport Jiu-Jitsu is a Perfected Form of Self Defense’ idk i read a book called opening the closed guard. and its amazing it opend up my eyes to some of the under ground lies that helio and Rickson have ben spreading .. its kinda a shame realy. cause i looked up to ricksons teachings quite a bit. i never train under him im from Boston, ma. but im kinda like you started with hapkido. got into bjj as i got older. idk its shame. but you should look into Robert DrysDale book opening the closed guard. i think you will like it.. so idk. your video got me thinking. lol thanks..
I think it just comes down to the teacher Right?
Aikido don't have competition and does not train to compete. It usually does not induce changes of emotion if you are pure practioner unlike other competitive martial arts.