Octavian won several lotteries in his life. His birth, being chosen by Ceasar.....but none could compare to having Agrippa lead his armies. The man was the most brilliant general of his generation. Ceasar himself would be cautious to go up against him. And he didnt want to be first man in Rome. He was content to be second!!!! An invaluable subordinate.
Octavian must have been an absolute genius to succeed and survive to old age. Caesar could have chosen anyone to inheret and succeed him. However he picked correctly that an extremely young Octavian would have the brains, charisma, and political skill to take over from him. Octavian was a chess player of politics and Agripa was also a genius of war and technology. Probably why they were such good friends.
The only other example I can think of is Belisarius, but politics was so corroded by then that the emperor simply could not believe a general could be so talented AND loyal. He had a second Agrippa in his hands, but treated him like trash. :(
@@antonius_006 a LOT. He had a long life after that battle and died peacefully a few years before Octavian himself (who himself died more than 70 years old).
" *how much of a genius Aggripa was* " Pompei "won" the war of logistics against Caesar just as, if not more convincingly. The actual genius managed to turn it all around, like he was fond of doing, over and over again. That's how a genius in action looks. Agrippa was good. If he was a genius, he was hiding it well.
It must suck so much for Mark Antony having lost this battle. Just 15 years earlier at ceasar's funeral it looked as if no one could challenge Antony as Ceasar's successor, and now he had absolutely no way to take back control. He must have played it over and over in his head where he went wrong and how he could have done things differently.
Read Plutarch's description of the extremely lavish and decadent lifestyle that Antony lived in Cleopatra's court at Alexandria. Decadence will undo even the toughest soldier.
@@therealestg9 I've read Plutarch's life of Antony, I know this. I'm just saying, Caesar proclaiming Octavian his heir played a role in Antony's downfall, so not everything depends on Antony as to "where it all went wrong". He overcame all of his enemies in Rome before Octavian showed up.
The genius of Octavian was that he knew his weaknesses but could recognize the best man for the job. And he didn't feel belittled when following exactly what he was told by them.
Issue is that this was a special exemption for Agrippa. Aside from him, there are multiple stories of men Octavian, or should I say Augustus, had exiled, killed or otherwise removed due to his own shaky position and fear that their competence may outshine him. Many members of the Claudius, Junius and Cornelius gens met his wrath, a lot of them being exiled or killed on trumped up charges of being lovers of his daughter Julia. Something I find unforgivable was his mistreatment of Tiberius. Augustus knew Tiberius to be the most capable of being the next Princeps; a great military commander, a skilled diplomat and orator, very well educated and cultured and quite charming when he needed to be to boot. Yet, Tiberius was treated like the shit beneath his boot, with men like Drusus the Elder and Agrippa Posthumus and even children like Gaius and Lucius being favored. Only reason Tiberius got the throne in the end was cause they all died.
He also awarded him appropriately by integrating him into his family, and making his children part of the royal line. Agrippa's loyalty was assured, and maybe Octavian recognized a man who was talented but not overly-ambitious. If this were the 2nd century AD, Agrippa would have been emperor in no time.
I’m glad Marcus Agrippa is getting the credit he deserves on your channel. We don’t hear enough about him in history classes but he definitely was one of the best and smartest generals in history. You gotta respect a guy who thinks 20 centuries ahead of his time when it comes to warfare.
Antony looked like a complete sucker. He really needed his enemies to make a mistake to give him an opportunity, but they never did. "As someone long prepared for the occasion, In full command of every plan you wrecked. Do not seek a coward's explanation, That hides between the cause and the effect."
The entire power struggle and war between Octavian and Antony can basically be summed up with "Antony commanded the right flank because he knew that was where all the action would be. Agrippa commanded opposite him. Octavian watched from a distance."
SPOILER : I used to feel a bit baffled that Augustus' name was not as well remembered as Caesar even though he was the first emperor of Rome. Now I know it was entirely deserved.
@MenwithHill When Roman Empire still existed Augustus was more prominent that Caesar (not that he was exactly forgotten). But after Caesar got more appreciated for his writings and later on for his character (and then critiqued more when democracies became fashionable).
I like that Octavian was perfectly willing to realize after all these years he wasn't great at military stuff at all, and basically just let Agrippa handle everything. I mean, he's still taking the credit, but still.
The setup of the battle of Actium really seems like the poster child of „Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics“ Agrippa cut Anthonys entire logistic train while offering the bait of a nice, clean and easy land battle up north to entice Anthony into ignoring his south and supply.
Agreed. Never ignore your supply lines. A battle south would have changed the entire battlefield and do much to save his supplies.., or... maybe come in from the other side of Greece? A shipping delay yes.. but superior to giving the enemy your fleet to use against you.
Marching south was an equally bad option. What Antonius was doing was engaging Octavian in Fabian tactics. Unsuccessfully so, thanks to Agrippa, but allowing Octavian to seize the port while he marched out to chase what were essentially pirates with a land army would have been ludicrous. I think that, had he pushed for a decisive naval battle from the beginning, he would have been successful, but it seems Cleopatra was firmly against risking her navy on that and for whatever reason Antonius wouldn’t push the issue even when the alternative was so much riskier. The battle that eventually does ensue is indecisive right up to the moment Cleopatra and Antonius bravely run away away, and the men they deserted promptly return the favour.
@@СусаннаСергеевна still, the rest of Anthony's warship just sat there and let Agrippa molest their supplier line from the Greek bases. If Anthony sent some of his warships to blockage Agrippa base, and part of his land force down south to dislodge these pirate, Anthony could - at the very least - keep Agrippa in the South, away from the main showdown where Anthony actually have a advantage in battle-experience.
He could’ve at least sent his warships to escort his supply ships in a convoy, maybe with a supply base in Crete where they’d be escorted the rest of the way
So close to the end of the republic now. While there is plenty more history to cover, it has to feel like the end of a chapter for your life. A great work nearing completion in and of itself. Be proud of your ability to make people interested in this.
The republic arguably ended when Marius abolished the militia in favour of a professional, standing army. After this Rome was dominated by one warlord after the other, and the interregnums were so stifled by the oligarchal tendencies of the optimates that no meaningful politics could take place. Caesar's dictatorship was in many ways an attempt to revive the republic, it was this threat of losing power to upstarts and "foreigners" that primarily drove the conspiracy to murder him.
@@PRubin-rh4sr yeah, it'll be better if they cover the Rise of Achaemenid instead. Almost every channel had done Alexander's saga but almost none done the Rise of the Achaemenid Empire in detailed manner like they do with the Alexander one.
I'm sure as Augustus was promising to pay all his soldiers after just one more campaign Caesar's ghost was standing behind him going "Oh he just like me FR."
My take on Actium is that Anthony's objective, after having been logistically checkmated by Agrippa and forced in a lose-lose situation, was primarily "escape and minimize losses". For this reason: 1. The land army was tasked with retreating no matter the outcome of the battle, showing that even in case of victory Anthony had no intention to give pursue or to continue the campaign; 2. The Egyptian vessels were left in reserve, with Cleopatra and the treasure on board and the sails ready; At the same time, I can hardly imagine Anthony launching his fleet into battle just for create an opening for Cleopatra to run. Abandoning men and boats to Agrippa seems too wasteful. I think that Anthony seriously committed to the battle. He was retreating, yes, but he wanted to win a naval confrontation. Beating Agrippa at sea would have had a double effect: 1. Damaging Octavian's position at sea, which had become too strong; 2. Displaying power and confidence to his allies, proving that victory was still obtainable; So, the plan was to win the naval confrontation and withdraw immediately. In this way, the whole Actium's affair would have turned out in a draw. Now, Anthony and Cleopatra had probably set up a plan for a quick escape if the battle went south: in case of things going for the worst, Egyptian ships were supposed to find the first opening and make a run for it; Anthony's flagship was supposed to be followed by a lighter and quicker ship to allow him escape. Now, this is how I believe things actually went the day of the battle. Cleopatra made the call for activating the escape B plan without consulting Anthony. Perhaps she was convinced the battle was lost, or perhaps she didn't like the main plan and forced his hands. This will explain why Anthony had to jump in the water (probably he had been separated from his escape ship when he launched the assault) and was mad at Cleopatra after the battle
The Sci-Fi sound effect is really apt for Agrippa - he was decades ahead of his contemporaries in many regards, it's just difficult to see when the difference is "can use his eyes to navigate without a coastline in sight". It seems so much of a given to us that it doesn't feel like a huge "technology" jump (or rather know-how), but it totally reshaped the naval strategem.
pirates of the ancient Mediterranean "you'll remember this day as the day you almost caught the great pirate sextus Pompeus!" *they capture him immediately after*
HBO's Rome makes such a great scene at Anthony's demise. His monologue really goes great with the atmosphere Plutarc paints of him at the end of the battlefield.
@@bymafia2606 The portrayal of Cicero in that show is criminal. I have to argue Cicero's virtues with my friends all of the time, because that show portrays him as a conniving Machiavellian with no principles or strength of character.
Edit: Two months later I've changed my mind. I think Antony was do or die and Cleopatra was pragmatic. Antony either over estimated his ability to succeed or couldn't convince Cleopatra to get her navy involved. Abandoning your legions had to have been political suicide, and Antony would've known that. Generals not putting weight behind his decision to fight at sea didn't help either...my tinfoil hat says the attempt to kidnap Antony was a result of him ignoring his generals. I think Antony suspected he'd be killed by his own men if the battle didn't go well. Cleopatra left when she saw writing on the wall, and the decision Antony made to follow her probably wasn't premeditated. I think in the comfort of camp the night before he'd resolved to win or be a martyr, and in the heat of the moment he chose to renege. --- IMHO the plan was always for Antony and Cleopatra to run if the battle went poorly, but Antony was supposed to be the one to make that call. Cleopatra made the decision instead. I think this explains why there were sails on the ships already-- the plan was always to run. Antony wouldn't speak to Cleopatra because her decision made him look weak. In his mind, he could have fought to a draw. Antony carried the cross, so to speak, of abandoning his legions. It's also completely in-character for Cleopatra to do this-- we know she was an opportunist, and I can't imagine she'd let a relationship compromise her own autonomy. Lest we forget what Romans liked to do to foreign monarchs they'd defeated.
I like this explaination. It's a bit maddening not knowing the answer though. So much plot left unanswered. Was Antony betrayed? Was he the betrayer? It's wild. All the possible character development and we're left, essentially, on a "decide for yourself" cliff hanger.
100% agree. I think to Antony it was always supposed to be a last ditch flight, but Cleopatra took off as soon as there was an opening. Antony's jumping ship had to be an emotional response, one that he immediately regretted once he had a chance to cool down. By then it was too late of course. Antony was despondent because he knew that he and Cleopatra had just doomed their cause. Being seen by everyone in the battle to chase after a woman and abandon his men is probably the worst thing a Roman commander could possibly do in a society that had such strong views on masculinity. It confirmed every slander Octavian had flung at Antony and he knew it.
I think this is well said - Cleopatra clearly broke the plan somehow due to her own idea of how the battle was going (which was quite likely accurate) but even Antony wouldn't have missed the fact that she had sails still, and Cleopatra wouldn't have completely betrayed him at random, because it would have doomed her. So it must be that Cleopatra was doing something at least close to their original plan, but with at least one significant difference, which explains both Antony's hasty escape and his silence towards her afterwards, and also makes it more clear how either of them thought it was a good idea for a second, because the way it turned out was only ever going to piss off Antony's men, but something more intentional in either direction would have gone over better.
let's be real, Cleopatra got annoyed at her puppet Anthony being unable to win the war for her and decided to bail leaving him and all his men to die. Anthony realized and took to pursue. Once he got on the ship he didn't talk with her because he had finally realized that Octavian was right, about the donations, about his actual wife and etc, and she had used him for years as her simp only to discard him when he was no longer useful. Eventually she'll have him commit suicide and try to pull the same tricks on Octavian too, her failure leading her too to the asp, and poor innocent Helios and Selene dying for her ambition.
“Never outshine the master” is the first law from *The 48 Laws of Power* and I believe it’s something that Agrippa inadvertently understood, which would help him to advance his own career from originally being a nobody to becoming the highest-ranking military official in the whole Roman military. Agrippa was obviously superior in matters of war than Octavian was (which is why Octavian chose him), but one will also notice that Agrippa always incorporated Octavian somewhere into his plans to have him hold some sort of leadership role on paper. This could have been at Octavian’s insistence too, but for a guy who would fall asleep during battles, I doubt Octavian actually wanted to be part of these battles most of the time. Octavian would generally be placed in one of the safer areas of a battle surrounded by a plethora of soldiers. Although nowhere is ever completely safe but the odds of him dying were always relatively less compared to whatever Agrippa’s role was. Or during the overall campaigns of a war, Octavian would always be leading one of the less-riskier armies during Agrippa’s multi-offensive campaign plans (see this campaign and the Illyricum campaign as examples of this), while Agrippa would typically be doing the riskier/pivotal leadership roles elsewhere in these plans to secure victory. In doing so, Agrippa would always ensure that his master (Octavian) was relatively safer and that Octavian could still receive the credit publicly by having technically been “part” of the battle/campaign in some manner. And if Agrippa were to ever fail during one of these pivotal roles, Octavian would still be safe and any blame on a failed campaign could fall onto Agrippa’s shoulders. However, Agrippa would continuously succeed and this always allowed Octavian to take the credit politically/superficially to the people back home, which then would lead to Octavian showering Agrippa with rewards and promotions.
Even before Octavian unofficially became the emperor (he still pretended he has restored the Republic during his life) their relationship was like a king and his general. Agrippa wasn’t from a family back round where it would have been possible for him to take charge, and Octavian was Caesar’s heir.
Agrippa was fine at his number 2 spot. He seemed to relish his role as the right hand. Loyalty, competence, wisdom and capability are astoundingly rare to find in a single individual that high up in the power structure.
The Battle of Actium was definitely a brilliant play by Marcus Agrippa. He was able to outmaneuver the quinqueremes with triremes. This means increased discipline by rowers and good pilots to ram and pull back and avoid being boarded or counter rammed.
I am increasingly coming to believe that Agrippa may be the most likely candidate we have for an actual time traveler. He was thinking of war in such a completely anachronistic manner, and was so ahead of the curve that I'm wondering if you seached his home if you'd find a tricked out DeLorean.
You have mastered the format of historical retellings. Simple imagery and laymen’s terms to break down complex issues and systems. I love history, and you are one of the best teachers out there. Thank you for this awesome content.
Highest quality youtuber. Simple animations and representations leave no room for exaggerations and misinformation. You are one of the most effective historians at displaying information in a way that's closest to the source material without embellishment. You are the first channel I recommend to anyone interested in history.
Yes, I really appreciate the spare but elegant and effective graphics as conveyors of the narrative. It's a good visual analogue to a serious historian's sober and analytical approach.
I dunno about misinformation. I am currently reading Michael Parenti’s People’s history of Rome, and he most certainly paints both Caesar and Cicero in different lights. I mainly agree with his view of Cicero as a cretinous landlord who helped egg on, and enhance, the deep fissures in Roman political society. But other than that, this channel has really brought so much extra depth to my understanding of classical civilisation, and inspired me further on to continue this love.
I'd like to add just to Aggripa's move for Methone. It seems to me that another part of what he was doing was reading what Antony would have expected. Most major military crossings would be from Brundisium to the Apollonium/Dyrrachium area. By sailing from Rhegium(-ish) to Methone, he was gambling that Antony wouldn't really have a contingency beyond light garrisons. In this way, I think we're seeing Agrippa's military genius in how he read his opponents. He saw what convential Roman doctrine said and what history had shown and forged another path to go down instead.
it seems super obvious to me that Octavian had a mole in Anthony's camp. That would explain so much - Octavian may have sucked at fighting wars, but he was great at dealing with people, if there was anyone in that war that would have paid a lot of attention to intelligence and would have the skills to set up what we today would call an intelligence agency, it'd be Octavian, and if there's anyone who'd flip a high-ranking man in the enemy camp and know how to use their info while protecting his sources, it'd also be Octavian.
@@georgiishmakov9588 some senators left and went to Antony when Octavian's did his show of force in the senate just before the war. All it would take is a few senators of the group actually being loyal to Octavian and being secretly told to leave and play intelligence. Boom, done.
@@lorefox201 we don't know how good their opsec was - in the modern day, congresspeople aren't allowed near sensitive intelligence and get the safe for public consumption version of events, for a very similar reason. However, Anthony doesn't strike me as the sort of guy to think about opsec.
@@georgiishmakov9588 i was going to tell you just that, Anthony sounds like the kind of guy who brag endlessly about the latest fruits of his galaxy brain with whoever will listen tbfh.
I read about Actium for the first time 8 years ago, being 14 and starting to get into history by reading about Cesar and Octavian. I haven't understood how that battle could have been as usefull for Octavian and Agripa until now. Always felt to me like a minor defeat in comparison to what happened to Pompey at Pharsalus, but finally I got my answer. Really thanks a lot! This period of history is not only one of my favourites but also the one that got me into history on the first place. Your videos help me remember and get to know some details that I haven't ever heard before. I think you are my favourite history channel, love your work, keep on going!!!
We are absolutely spoiled with the quality content this channel produces... It gives me such a rush everytime he posts and the information is sooo well documented. I can't imagine the amount of work that goes into each video but I can say every single one of them is greatly appreciated. Thank you, Historia Civilis
You know I literally just thought "Man I wonder whatever happened to Historia Civilis" and I am so stoked to see another video posted 30 minutes ago. I had to stop following this channel for a while. Back when I was married this was the favorite TH-cam channel of my wife and I. After we split up I just could not deal with the reminder of it anymore. But I believe I'm past that and watching these videos doesn't constantly remind me of when we sat on the couch together and watched these.
Agrippa is one of those rare military geniuses who knows which tools he has and how to use them the best possible way to overturn all of his disadvantages and counter his enemy's advantages. Same breed as guys like Jan Žižka, Fernández de Córdoba, Von Moltke or Philip II.
He also though of war like a general from literally many centuries after. Is almost absurd that he was a 1st century BCE Roman general, with the way he waged war.
@@Jake007123 I wouldn't say it was unprecedented, even amongst the Romans, Scipio Africanus was famous for his land-sea cooperation and amphibious warfare, especially in his Spanish Campaign, centuries before.
Agrippa's quick move to box in Antony is insane. Reminiscent of Napoleon and such. Here I was thinking Antony was the one that could afford a waiting game (since he could be growing his army as much as he wanted in the East waiting for Octavian and preparing the terrain), but with this strategic move by Aggripa, the chessboard was completely turned around.
Antony’s biggest blunder was chasing after Octavian, then on top of that waiting whilst receiving no supply. Generals “wait and see” are historically the worst kind specially in situations that rely on time.
It’s never a good move to allow someone to disturb your supplies, Antonius should have known that and moved to South. I assume he was too focused on Octavian as a person.
Agrippa is in my opinion the most under rated person in all of ancient history and an easy top 5 Roman of all time, so it gives me ungodly pleasure seeing you so thoroughly detail his genius and exploits.
I love that there are two very different stories out of the one same scene. On the one hand, Cleopatra convinces Antony of some cunning plan to get out of this seemingly hopeless fight, which he still manages to almost screw up and get himself killed, leaving the man dejected and humiliated sailing away with his foreign wife, feeling like he's betraying his own soldiers and his fellow Romans. On the other hand, we have a story of a woman who talks her headstrong husband into a crafty ruse, then doesn't bother mentioning that the plan never involved him coming with, and now Antony sits here on this ship, keeping up appearances, knowing that even his wife might betray him.
Im a bit tempted to hang towards Cleopatra seeing which way the winds were blowing. Antony was deffs left out to dry having to swim like that, and the reserves move could have done some damage if it were a tactical trust instead of a pure play to get out. Maybe Antony had been left to think these reserves were for exactly such a thrust, only to be left scrambeling when it turned not to be the case. Worth knowing if these reserves Cleopatra was sailing with were large enough to militarily make a difference. Either way, the sudden nature of it all smacks off Cleopatra getting cold feet
@@lorefox201 I concur, they could have relieved Anthony’s flank and there was still a shot at victory. But they fled-stupidity at its finest, how could cleopatra not anticipate the defections after that?
I'd bet Cleopatra saw the writing on the wall before, and during Actium. She'd be willing to ditch him and, as she'd done before, sway Octavian into her having a strong position. IMO, she abandoned him, but unluckily he didn't die in the battle, and she was now stuck with him. Now, with hindsight, to the end of her days. Maybe she pressured for a sea battle because she saw exactly the opportunity she'd need to escape?
mostt likely she was always for Egypt not anything else She later tried to make deal with Octavian I do think she was kinda dumb and dint realise that if Antony deasnt win she and Egypt are doom
One of my students wrote an assignment about Octavian riding into battle at Actium. I hated to have to tell him it was a sea battle! Mind you, Horace says in one of his epodes that O was seasick and watched it from the safety of the beach, not that my student knew that.
I really like how you analyze Anthony's decisions without falling into the trap of just considering him an idiot, because a) he wasn't and b) it helps to highlight agrippa's genius in the battlefield, as he was able to consider aspects of warfare that not even the best generals of his time would think of
I have to agree, I think Antony’s mistakes were not stupid but his military doctrines were so out matched He did not place enough importance on the logistics or navy, it says enough that when given the choice of marching north for a big army battle or securing logistics he chose the battle. I read him as a good tactical leader but compared to Agrippa a poor strategic thinker
It seems as if Agrippa's strategy had a gamble hidden within it: he gambled that Antony would think like a Roman, which was a pretty safe bet. He would want to come to grips with the main strength of the enemy and destroy it. If Antony had headed south, and secured his supply lines, time would have been on his side. And I doubt that even Agrippa could have held him off until Octavian came to relieve him. Still not a great shot at winning, but it would've been better I believe than the shot he had by going north.
To be fair, if your gamble is predicting your enemy will act exactly how they have always acted and how everyone else would, then every decision in life is a gamble, because that's near certain
Agrippa could always retreat via sea with his veteran sailors, but I still would have marched/sailed south to ensure that very outcome at the least. And there's no hindsight here, even in their day the criticality of a functional supply line is not revolutionary, it's why he set it up in the first place. But of course, the decision to move the supplies entirely by ship along the west coast WITHOUT ESCORT seems ridiculous. Even absent escort, where were the ships to react to Agrippa's actions? Why did he not immediately move in and pin Agrippa landlocked inside his single captured port using his all those ships of his accompanying his army? At the very least why not intercept your supply ships in advance of Agrippa's position and reroute the deliveries to the east into Athens and re-establish your lines with an over land second half? Why not do that from the start? Some wars are won, and credit to minds that win them. Not to take anything from Agrippa, but some wars are simply lost, and credit to the mediocrity that lose them. Antony fucked this up and kept fucking it up.
@@possibly_a_retard with his superior fleet and probably much better sailors why didnt he Chase agrippa off? I think it has something to do with HC saying octavian landed earlier and to the norther than expected. I can imagine Anthony deploying mass of his fleet to do as much as damage to crossing octavian. I specalute he sent ships to south but with local superiority agrippa couldnt be dislodged. It was a really good plan that played on anthony's ineffectiveness. He was a great lieutenant under caesar but not a great commander on his own. But of course these are specalutions.
Octavian was known to be the weaker tactician vs Agrippa. He probably thought it would be easier to beat him, and with him beaten maybe it would have been over.
In other words... Anthony was playing chess but Agrippa's playing poker. Anthony think it's gonna be a typical Roman campaign... Agrippa's playing a different game.
I live in Preveza, in the straits of Actium, between the ruins of Actia Nicopolis (meaning the city of victory) that Octavian build to honor his victory at Actium. The city would be the biggest Roman city in Greece and would reach more than 150.000 citizens and it would still remain an important Byzantine city till 1204 AC that it was destroyed by the Bulgarians. Octavian also brought back the Actian Games from Ancient Greek times and they were made the biggest sports event for a while (bigger than the Olympic Games).
Love that you give Agrippa the credit he deserves. Dude was a boss, perhaps one of the greatest Roman commanders ever. Agrippa reminds me a lot of Labienus, but much more loyal.
Good thing I just rewatched the Roman history playlist over the past few days. PSA: I’ve been falling asleep to them and it gives me some crazy dreams where I’m a Roman Statesman and am fighting not to be murdered by Clodius.
If Cleopatra wanted to betray him, her other actions don’t make much sense. She might have miscalculated how the battle was going and too early activated the plan B escape plan. But I would not see this as outright betrayal
Agrippa fought a 20th century war in the 1st century BC. A military genius ahead of his time. Credit to Octavian for letting Agrippa do what he needed to. Antony was clueless as to what was happening to him and thus ended up losing.
Thank you so much for the effort you put in for these videos! These have been some of the few videos that I have been very excited for for the past year, and I really enjoy learning more about Ancient Rome in an easily digestible and interesting but not dramatized way.
Marc Antony has always been one of my favorites in history. Especially Roman history. His story is a really incredible tale. And I wonder what the real story is. So many things are really speculation and just us assuming what sounds most reasonable/likely. Amazing video as always though Historia Civilis.
The Battle of Actium has a weird place in my life as I watched S2 of Rome at exactly the time that life slapped me down hard so I can sort of see how Antony felt at the time. 3 years later I'm still trying to dig my way out but haven't fallen on my sword at least...
I feel that, everything since I've felt since I graduated from college is regret for missed opportunities and bitterness for the success of others. Yet life still carries on and you have to walk forward.
Genuinely my favorite channel on TH-cam thank you for getting me into ancient history previously all I consumed was American history. This channel has been so beneficial to my mental progress
Damn. That's quite a distance to swim in such an inmense naval battle and have enough time to reach the center, rearrange some ships and follow Cleopatra all along. Mark Anthony must have been quite fit.
Why did I not learn about Agrippa in school?! One of the best tacticians/strategists for his time with multiple smashing successes in situations stacked against him
@@PRubin-rh4sr Not really, history is really the story of warfare throughout the ages. I know the fad these days is to pretend that everything every social class got up to mattered, but it's just not so, history is determined by a small number of people engaged in politics, diplomacy, and war. We understood this before Marxists infiltrated the system and started pretending the lives and fate of peasants was somehow relevant.
The portrayal of Mark Antony by James Purefoy in Rome was so good I always had a soft spot for him, despite his obvious shortcomings, he seemed destined to continue on where Caesar left off. Sadly it was not meant to be
Absolutely, unequivocally, one of the best History channels in existence. It’s almost better that the uploads are so infrequent. It only adds to the overall quality 💯.
Legitimately excited to see these videos released. Just a week ago, I listened to a "Hardcore History Addendum" with Dan Carlin and a guest talking about the Battle of Actium. Their podcast was over an hour long, and yet you managed to describe a better picture of the scene (in a geopolitical / tactical sense) and more of the juicy details in a 22 minute video. All of this is really helpful in providing a "3D view" of what this period of history might have been like. P.S. the futurama-esque entrance of Agrippa gets me every time haha
Theres maybe 1 or 2 episodes left of the Octavian series, I wonder what will come after that. Continuing into the empire? Going back and maybe doing Marius and Sulla? More random English civil war videos? Retirement? Maybe something new and random like the politics of the Seychelles or the 2nd Congo War? So many choices.
Watching this series go from Caesar’s conquests to the sheer madness of trying to move on from his death has been a truly fascinating experience. *So this is how liberty dies? With thunderous applause*
liberty had been dead for a while when Caesar got into the scene, not even Sulla could save the Republic and he acted as an exemplary Roman dictator leaving office the second it wasn't necessary for him to hold it anymore. "BuT hE KiLlEd HiS PoLiTiCal RiValS!" His political rivals were a lodge of snakes, the fact that he clearly didn't kill enought of them is the reason the repubblic fell. By when Caesar enters the scene it's a rotten zombie still walking. Historia Will Say constantly "this and that that Caesar or Octavian did destroyed Roman politics" but they litterally did nothing the elite before them hadn't already done but worse.
The work and research this guy puts into his videos is unbelievable. I’ve been watching this account for nearly 7 years, and I have enjoyed every video on here multiple times. with still so many more to come, I look forward to it all. (Especially life after the republic) Thank you for the hard work you put into these videos ❤️
I like to think the Egyptian retreat was planned, but was also still a suprise to Antony. Maybe it was a back-up plan that went wrong. Antony may have told Cleopatra to pick him up and leave only if the battle went south. Maybe she assumed Antony's weakened position a loss and proceeded with plan b - retreat. Antony believing the battle was still salvageable would be angry with her and would be surprised at the retreat.
I think there may have been a plan to set sail with the treasure during battle if all seemed lost, but I am 100% convinced that Cleopatra set off by her own accord and essentially betrayed Antony. That is why he was distraught, compounded further by him knowing that swimming after your foreign wife and abandoning your men is not the best look - and then cemented by realising that he just lost the war and his time is up. I think what hurt him most though was the betrayal of Cleopatra, who no doubt had excuses like "I was doing what we planned" when it's quite obvious she hadn't
A lot of people think that Antony is somewhat of a "lucky" and mildly-skilled general but if you think about it, the man is pretty smart when it comes to the broader strategic game, if his plan actually worked that is.
Nah, imma give u an L on that one. In my humble opinion, there are several problems with that idea. 1 When antony served under Caesar and built his resume, Caesar had arguably put him and all the other soldiers in a good position in every battle. Therefore, none of Antonys successes here can be attributed to him, since Caesar is no question a better general. If u disagree with that point respectfully have a nice day. 2 to my knowledge Antony never commanded any battle and won against any commander more experienced or better than him. 3 when Caesar helped antony gain command and authority in the senate, antony miserably failed in dealing with unrest in the city and did have to bring roman soldiers to rome to kill civilians, not that strategic here either. 4 Antonys parthian campaign was a massive strategic failure. Even if u argue antony had good strategic planning and ideas for winning the campaign, which i do not agree, it was not very smart or strategically viable to hold parthias massive amount of territory over the long term. Therefore, fighting the campaign was a bad strategic decision with a massive opportunity cost that ultimately destroyed his military strategic game for the rest of his life. 5 The battle of actium would arguably have gone better had antony attacked agrippa instead of Octavian first when they both pursued him in greece. Although Octavian was a threat, he was not as skilled a general as agrippa, and could not have as effectively commanded against and defeated antony, thus giving antony a better chance to win if agrippa was permanently defeated, whereas the same is not as true with octavian gone. 6 The donations of alexandria was a terrible strategic move for antony for several reasons. Antony promised to his children territory he didn't have, which alienates foreign enemies and nations based around said territory disputes. Claiming Octavian was not Caesars only heir alienated Octavians faction and led to war before antony was ready for it, especially bad strategically considering Octavian knew arguably more about Antonys faction than anyone because they both fought together at phillipi and Octavian did little commanding but rather watched antony command most of the battle. 7 Octavian had promised to supply antony soldiers after his parthian defeat, so it is again very bad that antony alienated Octavians faction because it is known fact between them both antony is short the requested amount of soldiers in his army, if not short many more. This is a huge strategic weakness and not considering this differently beforehand to choose a different approach might have cost antony the war. 9 Cleopatra supplied many of the soldiers, food, and other supplies for antonys armies. Although this seems minor, consider that antony has to now get Cleopatras approval for important decisions which has massive repercussions. Antony has to winter in Egypt with Cleopatra to make sure of her cooperation, leaving roman territory vulnerable for too long until it is attacked by parthia and the local governor executed. 10 Arguably, it was a bad strategic decision to stay in Egypt especially for such a long time, or maybe even a bad idea for antony to ally with Egypt at all, because the alliance had risk of being broken and leaving antony even more vulnerable. Probably, antony was more inclined to accept and go along with this because of his affection and love for Cleopatra, and this could explain some of the poor strategic judgements by antony during this time. Antony probably just trusted Cleopatra too much, and she had too much control and influence over some of Antonys decisions, and vice versa. This romance caused a problematic dynamic in which the 2 leaders might have had too much significant difficulty separating work and personal matters. With all due respect, where u at?
First all: always great to see another vid! Second, my thoughts on Cleopatra leaving- i don’t know how much time it would take to stow sails, as if it was easy to do, my thoughts would be harder to find. However, if it took time to take them down, I 100% feel like Cleopatra intended to run. As for communication with Antony, he wasn’t told. Think about it, those 70 ships could have been used to fight, preventing (at least partially) encirclement by Agrippas ships. While I cannot be on the ground to get a good idea for how the battle played out, those ships could have made the difference. Instead she just left. Moreover, the the way Antony reacted is of someone who didn’t know what Cleopatra was doing. He literally jumped ship and swam for her. In short, Cleopatra played Antony, and he paid the price for it. Also, Agrippa is one hell of a strategist.
Late comment, but just wanted to say I love the addition of a bit more of your personality and narrating your personal thoughts. These later videos are great cause they illustrate your opinions about events, and you do it in an entertaining way. Cheers!
Is there anyone like this who could do Chinese history following the warring states period? Or Japanese warring states period? This is so well done and the style and use of moving unit markers to show a battle and narrate the sub plots and politics in the background is so well done yet very simple.
This is the wildest New Vegas fanfiction I've ever seen... but seriously I love your Caesar series. I discovered it yesterday and I've been binging it since then.
Quality! thank you so much for another incredible video. Others may have better graphics (I am so used to yours that I actually love it) but the quality is just another level. True historian. Thank you.
The image in my head of a horrified antony literally just jumping off his ship and swimming for another one might never be topped
WTF HOW U COMMENT THEN
What is this sorcery
I remember watching that scene in the movie Cleopatra and feeling so embarrassed for Anthony.
I'm guessing you're a member with early access?
He should've checked with Tribune Aquila before he jumped ship
Octavian won several lotteries in his life. His birth, being chosen by Ceasar.....but none could compare to having Agrippa lead his armies. The man was the most brilliant general of his generation. Ceasar himself would be cautious to go up against him. And he didnt want to be first man in Rome. He was content to be second!!!! An invaluable subordinate.
Octavian must have been an absolute genius to succeed and survive to old age.
Caesar could have chosen anyone to inheret and succeed him. However he picked correctly that an extremely young Octavian would have the brains, charisma, and political skill to take over from him.
Octavian was a chess player of politics and Agripa was also a genius of war and technology. Probably why they were such good friends.
@@hamishbiggswe could make a show out of this
The only other example I can think of is Belisarius, but politics was so corroded by then that the emperor simply could not believe a general could be so talented AND loyal. He had a second Agrippa in his hands, but treated him like trash. :(
Do you know how long Agrippa survived after that battle ?
@@antonius_006 a LOT. He had a long life after that battle and died peacefully a few years before Octavian himself (who himself died more than 70 years old).
Octavian: sure is a beautiful day today
Livia: it sure is
Octavian: you know who else is beautiful
Livia: (blushes) who?
Octavian: agrippa
Bros before hoes
Then he points at the numerous beautiful fountains across the street
Livia can't even be mad. She knows, like everyone else, that Agrippa is the best wingman ever.
That sounds like something out of an Oversimplified video
We knew the relationship is not romantical as Octavian kept sending him away to fight barbarians while he sat on his bed and contemplating
Every new video makes me further amazed at just how much of a genius Agrippa was.
Are we sure he wasn’t just a time traveler that knew Latin? His thought process is at least 1900 years ahead of his time. /s
He had a firm grip on things.
LOL
" *how much of a genius Aggripa was* "
Pompei "won" the war of logistics against Caesar just as, if not more convincingly. The actual genius managed to turn it all around, like he was fond of doing, over and over again.
That's how a genius in action looks. Agrippa was good. If he was a genius, he was hiding it well.
my opinion of Aggripa was that he was a very competent commander in a time of bad commanders. that's just my opinion.
@@bakters could you give some examples?
It must suck so much for Mark Antony having lost this battle. Just 15 years earlier at ceasar's funeral it looked as if no one could challenge Antony as Ceasar's successor, and now he had absolutely no way to take back control. He must have played it over and over in his head where he went wrong and how he could have done things differently.
Octavian being proclaimed Caesar's heir is a factor too. It wasn't all in Antony's hands.
Read Plutarch's description of the extremely lavish and decadent lifestyle that Antony lived in Cleopatra's court at Alexandria. Decadence will undo even the toughest soldier.
@@therealestg9 I've read Plutarch's life of Antony, I know this. I'm just saying, Caesar proclaiming Octavian his heir played a role in Antony's downfall, so not everything depends on Antony as to "where it all went wrong". He overcame all of his enemies in Rome before Octavian showed up.
@@therealestg9 That was part of Octavian's propaganda to discredit Anthony and turn Rome against him before even engaging him into battle.
Sucks to suck
The genius of Octavian was that he knew his weaknesses but could recognize the best man for the job. And he didn't feel belittled when following exactly what he was told by them.
Together the pair really were unbeatable.
Having a trustworthy lieutenant is one of a ruler's greatest force multipliers.
Issue is that this was a special exemption for Agrippa. Aside from him, there are multiple stories of men Octavian, or should I say Augustus, had exiled, killed or otherwise removed due to his own shaky position and fear that their competence may outshine him. Many members of the Claudius, Junius and Cornelius gens met his wrath, a lot of them being exiled or killed on trumped up charges of being lovers of his daughter Julia.
Something I find unforgivable was his mistreatment of Tiberius. Augustus knew Tiberius to be the most capable of being the next Princeps; a great military commander, a skilled diplomat and orator, very well educated and cultured and quite charming when he needed to be to boot. Yet, Tiberius was treated like the shit beneath his boot, with men like Drusus the Elder and Agrippa Posthumus and even children like Gaius and Lucius being favored. Only reason Tiberius got the throne in the end was cause they all died.
He also awarded him appropriately by integrating him into his family, and making his children part of the royal line. Agrippa's loyalty was assured, and maybe Octavian recognized a man who was talented but not overly-ambitious. If this were the 2nd century AD, Agrippa would have been emperor in no time.
I mean, it’s pretty easy to pick the best man for the job when Agrippa is available.
I’m glad Marcus Agrippa is getting the credit he deserves on your channel. We don’t hear enough about him in history classes but he definitely was one of the best and smartest generals in history. You gotta respect a guy who thinks 20 centuries ahead of his time when it comes to warfare.
At least he gets the credit for The Pantheon in Rome.
A beautiful temple now a church.
@@alanpennie8013 the barbarians destroyed and spat on his face by using it as a church! Christian brutes.
Damn straight. ROME HBO makes him seem docile and Octavian's bitch. He was the number one, at being second
Yeah I had to go get a degree in history to finally hear the story of Agrippa’s badassery. Peeps oughta know! Seriously underrated dude.
Yeah Historia Civilis isn't a big fan of Octavian
Its astonishing to me how quickly Octavian and Agrippa dismantled Antonys entire power structure, Illyria put up a bigger fight
Cleopatra and Anthony dismantled Anthony's power structure in the east.
@thesammy78ify ...by the good old strategy of being greedy goofballs
Antony looked like a complete sucker.
He really needed his enemies to make a mistake to give him an opportunity, but they never did.
"As someone long prepared for the occasion,
In full command of every plan you wrecked.
Do not seek a coward's explanation,
That hides between the cause and the effect."
Antony was always kind of a chump though, Cicero basically had him nailed dead to rights as an enemy of Rome before Octavian allied with him.
@@Colddirector a goof even before turning to abject simping.
The entire power struggle and war between Octavian and Antony can basically be summed up with "Antony commanded the right flank because he knew that was where all the action would be. Agrippa commanded opposite him. Octavian watched from a distance."
*Octavian falls asleep from boredom.
SPOILER :
I used to feel a bit baffled that Augustus' name was not as well remembered as Caesar even though he was the first emperor of Rome. Now I know it was entirely deserved.
Antony wasn't as smart as he thought he was. That was his worst trait as a leader.
@MenwithHill
When Roman Empire still existed Augustus was more prominent that Caesar (not that he was exactly forgotten). But after Caesar got more appreciated for his writings and later on for his character (and then critiqued more when democracies became fashionable).
@@zehsackett6132 Who is saying It, a Strategist that is thinking is smarter ? 😂
I like that Octavian was perfectly willing to realize after all these years he wasn't great at military stuff at all, and basically just let Agrippa handle everything. I mean, he's still taking the credit, but still.
I think he realised this from the beginning.
He was never interested in military glory or a triumph only in getting the job done.
Wisdom is surrounding yourself with people who know more than you do.
yea i think octavian and agrippa should kiss
@@IDontKnow-dl3lq
They are the bisected soul from Plato's Symposium.
Reunited they would be the bestest human.
@@alanpennie8013 'bestest human' you mean like julius caesar?
Betraying his soldiers seems like a fitting end to Antony's career.
They're ultimately his employees, not his family
When I watched Cleopatra, I was so mad at how Anthony treated Martin Landau's character (I'm a big Martin Landau and Classic Mission Impossible fan).
When I watched Cleopatra, I was so mad at how Anthony treated Martin Landau's character (I'm a big Martin Landau and Classic Mission Impossible fan).
When I watched Cleopatra, I was so mad at how Anthony treated Martin Landau's character (I'm a big Martin Landau and Classic Mission Impossible fan).
When I watched Cleopatra, I was so mad at how Anthony treated Martin Landau's character (I'm a big Martin Landau and Classic Mission Impossible fan).
Been waiting a while for this one.
“If I know the gods don’t got me, Agrippa still do” - augustus
Octavian would have gotten nowhere without Agrippa imo
rom com of the century
@@mokithepepe2454Roman Companionship
What
@@Serocco And vice versa, Agrippa was great at war but politics was Octavians game.
The setup of the battle of Actium really seems like the poster child of „Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics“ Agrippa cut Anthonys entire logistic train while offering the bait of a nice, clean and easy land battle up north to entice Anthony into ignoring his south and supply.
Agreed. Never ignore your supply lines. A battle south would have changed the entire battlefield and do much to save his supplies.., or... maybe come in from the other side of Greece? A shipping delay yes.. but superior to giving the enemy your fleet to use against you.
Marching south was an equally bad option. What Antonius was doing was engaging Octavian in Fabian tactics. Unsuccessfully so, thanks to Agrippa, but allowing Octavian to seize the port while he marched out to chase what were essentially pirates with a land army would have been ludicrous. I think that, had he pushed for a decisive naval battle from the beginning, he would have been successful, but it seems Cleopatra was firmly against risking her navy on that and for whatever reason Antonius wouldn’t push the issue even when the alternative was so much riskier. The battle that eventually does ensue is indecisive right up to the moment Cleopatra and Antonius bravely run away away, and the men they deserted promptly return the favour.
@@СусаннаСергеевна still, the rest of Anthony's warship just sat there and let Agrippa molest their supplier line from the Greek bases. If Anthony sent some of his warships to blockage Agrippa base, and part of his land force down south to dislodge these pirate, Anthony could - at the very least - keep Agrippa in the South, away from the main showdown where Anthony actually have a advantage in battle-experience.
if you notice he had lost the Parthian campaign a few years earlier exactly in the same way.
He could’ve at least sent his warships to escort his supply ships in a convoy, maybe with a supply base in Crete where they’d be escorted the rest of the way
So close to the end of the republic now. While there is plenty more history to cover, it has to feel like the end of a chapter for your life. A great work nearing completion in and of itself. Be proud of your ability to make people interested in this.
The republic arguably ended when Marius abolished the militia in favour of a professional, standing army. After this Rome was dominated by one warlord after the other, and the interregnums were so stifled by the oligarchal tendencies of the optimates that no meaningful politics could take place. Caesar's dictatorship was in many ways an attempt to revive the republic, it was this threat of losing power to upstarts and "foreigners" that primarily drove the conspiracy to murder him.
There is still Alexander’s saga and the Punic Wars
@@HaloFTW55 Absolutely, it just feels like the roman republic meeting its end is the end of an era for the channel.
@@HaloFTW55 Alexander is covered so much it would be a waste of time.
@@PRubin-rh4sr yeah, it'll be better if they cover the Rise of Achaemenid instead. Almost every channel had done Alexander's saga but almost none done the Rise of the Achaemenid Empire in detailed manner like they do with the Alexander one.
Agrippa personifying the quote "Don't give your enemy a problem. Give them a dilemma."
EHEM and space scooter sounds
All Hail Marcus Agrippa, Boat King, Beloved of Neptune!
If stonework’s is going to recreate this battle in Minecraft, I wouldn’t be surprised, keep up the great work!
yo didnt expect to see you here! good taste in history youtubers
that dude desrves a Temple!
Nice
Stoney comes in with the cool beard
In battle of Actium, Anthony lost everything he had hoped for.
But at least his dad/greatuncle didn't make Tribune Aquila mad
Actually that's what happened: Antony forgot to ask Tribune Aquila before going into battle.
@@colinmerritt7645 I doubt he'd have said yes considering he was killed by Anthony's army at Mutina.
Did Tribune Aquila agree to this comment?
@@MSNL123 I don't think so.
If the Egyptian ships attacked the center or reenforced the right it might have ended up different
I'm sure as Augustus was promising to pay all his soldiers after just one more campaign Caesar's ghost was standing behind him going "Oh he just like me FR."
Like Father like Son
My take on Actium is that Anthony's objective, after having been logistically checkmated by Agrippa and forced in a lose-lose situation, was primarily "escape and minimize losses". For this reason:
1. The land army was tasked with retreating no matter the outcome of the battle, showing that even in case of victory Anthony had no intention to give pursue or to continue the campaign;
2. The Egyptian vessels were left in reserve, with Cleopatra and the treasure on board and the sails ready;
At the same time, I can hardly imagine Anthony launching his fleet into battle just for create an opening for Cleopatra to run. Abandoning men and boats to Agrippa seems too wasteful. I think that Anthony seriously committed to the battle. He was retreating, yes, but he wanted to win a naval confrontation. Beating Agrippa at sea would have had a double effect:
1. Damaging Octavian's position at sea, which had become too strong;
2. Displaying power and confidence to his allies, proving that victory was still obtainable;
So, the plan was to win the naval confrontation and withdraw immediately. In this way, the whole Actium's affair would have turned out in a draw. Now, Anthony and Cleopatra had probably set up a plan for a quick escape if the battle went south: in case of things going for the worst, Egyptian ships were supposed to find the first opening and make a run for it; Anthony's flagship was supposed to be followed by a lighter and quicker ship to allow him escape. Now, this is how I believe things actually went the day of the battle. Cleopatra made the call for activating the escape B plan without consulting Anthony. Perhaps she was convinced the battle was lost, or perhaps she didn't like the main plan and forced his hands. This will explain why Anthony had to jump in the water (probably he had been separated from his escape ship when he launched the assault) and was mad at Cleopatra after the battle
Sounds like a good theory.
Agrippa: for us to succeed i need you to do to absolutely nothing.
Octavian: you know what, i think i can do that.
I love how you give Agrippa a sci-fi sound effect.
Also I love how he just essentially went full on swashbuckler
(He’s A Pirate intensifies)
The Sci-Fi sound effect is really apt for Agrippa - he was decades ahead of his contemporaries in many regards, it's just difficult to see when the difference is "can use his eyes to navigate without a coastline in sight". It seems so much of a given to us that it doesn't feel like a huge "technology" jump (or rather know-how), but it totally reshaped the naval strategem.
Yar plunder the Egyptians
pirates of the ancient Mediterranean
"you'll remember this day as the day you almost caught the great pirate sextus Pompeus!"
*they capture him immediately after*
@@lorefox201 D'oh!
HBO's Rome makes such a great scene at Anthony's demise. His monologue really goes great with the atmosphere Plutarc paints of him at the end of the battlefield.
shame that show portrayed Agrippa so poorly
@@bymafia2606 they barely showed him, other than worth Octavia
@@jtgd wtf
@@bymafia2606 The portrayal of Cicero in that show is criminal. I have to argue Cicero's virtues with my friends all of the time, because that show portrays him as a conniving Machiavellian with no principles or strength of character.
@@bymafia2606 Have you watched Augustus: The First Emperor? I think it portrays them pretty well.
Edit: Two months later I've changed my mind. I think Antony was do or die and Cleopatra was pragmatic. Antony either over estimated his ability to succeed or couldn't convince Cleopatra to get her navy involved. Abandoning your legions had to have been political suicide, and Antony would've known that. Generals not putting weight behind his decision to fight at sea didn't help either...my tinfoil hat says the attempt to kidnap Antony was a result of him ignoring his generals. I think Antony suspected he'd be killed by his own men if the battle didn't go well. Cleopatra left when she saw writing on the wall, and the decision Antony made to follow her probably wasn't premeditated. I think in the comfort of camp the night before he'd resolved to win or be a martyr, and in the heat of the moment he chose to renege.
---
IMHO the plan was always for Antony and Cleopatra to run if the battle went poorly, but Antony was supposed to be the one to make that call. Cleopatra made the decision instead.
I think this explains why there were sails on the ships already-- the plan was always to run. Antony wouldn't speak to Cleopatra because her decision made him look weak. In his mind, he could have fought to a draw. Antony carried the cross, so to speak, of abandoning his legions. It's also completely in-character for Cleopatra to do this-- we know she was an opportunist, and I can't imagine she'd let a relationship compromise her own autonomy. Lest we forget what Romans liked to do to foreign monarchs they'd defeated.
I like this explaination. It's a bit maddening not knowing the answer though. So much plot left unanswered. Was Antony betrayed? Was he the betrayer? It's wild. All the possible character development and we're left, essentially, on a "decide for yourself" cliff hanger.
Cleopatra is one sneaky woman.
100% agree. I think to Antony it was always supposed to be a last ditch flight, but Cleopatra took off as soon as there was an opening. Antony's jumping ship had to be an emotional response, one that he immediately regretted once he had a chance to cool down. By then it was too late of course. Antony was despondent because he knew that he and Cleopatra had just doomed their cause. Being seen by everyone in the battle to chase after a woman and abandon his men is probably the worst thing a Roman commander could possibly do in a society that had such strong views on masculinity. It confirmed every slander Octavian had flung at Antony and he knew it.
I think this is well said - Cleopatra clearly broke the plan somehow due to her own idea of how the battle was going (which was quite likely accurate) but even Antony wouldn't have missed the fact that she had sails still, and Cleopatra wouldn't have completely betrayed him at random, because it would have doomed her. So it must be that Cleopatra was doing something at least close to their original plan, but with at least one significant difference, which explains both Antony's hasty escape and his silence towards her afterwards, and also makes it more clear how either of them thought it was a good idea for a second, because the way it turned out was only ever going to piss off Antony's men, but something more intentional in either direction would have gone over better.
let's be real, Cleopatra got annoyed at her puppet Anthony being unable to win the war for her and decided to bail leaving him and all his men to die.
Anthony realized and took to pursue.
Once he got on the ship he didn't talk with her because he had finally realized that Octavian was right, about the donations, about his actual wife and etc, and she had used him for years as her simp only to discard him when he was no longer useful.
Eventually she'll have him commit suicide and try to pull the same tricks on Octavian too, her failure leading her too to the asp, and poor innocent Helios and Selene dying for her ambition.
Poor Antony. This was the guy who led Caesar's cavalry at Alesia. What a fall.
“Never outshine the master” is the first law from *The 48 Laws of Power* and I believe it’s something that Agrippa inadvertently understood, which would help him to advance his own career from originally being a nobody to becoming the highest-ranking military official in the whole Roman military.
Agrippa was obviously superior in matters of war than Octavian was (which is why Octavian chose him), but one will also notice that Agrippa always incorporated Octavian somewhere into his plans to have him hold some sort of leadership role on paper. This could have been at Octavian’s insistence too, but for a guy who would fall asleep during battles, I doubt Octavian actually wanted to be part of these battles most of the time.
Octavian would generally be placed in one of the safer areas of a battle surrounded by a plethora of soldiers. Although nowhere is ever completely safe but the odds of him dying were always relatively less compared to whatever Agrippa’s role was. Or during the overall campaigns of a war, Octavian would always be leading one of the less-riskier armies during Agrippa’s multi-offensive campaign plans (see this campaign and the Illyricum campaign as examples of this), while Agrippa would typically be doing the riskier/pivotal leadership roles elsewhere in these plans to secure victory.
In doing so, Agrippa would always ensure that his master (Octavian) was relatively safer and that Octavian could still receive the credit publicly by having technically been “part” of the battle/campaign in some manner. And if Agrippa were to ever fail during one of these pivotal roles, Octavian would still be safe and any blame on a failed campaign could fall onto Agrippa’s shoulders. However, Agrippa would continuously succeed and this always allowed Octavian to take the credit politically/superficially to the people back home, which then would lead to Octavian showering Agrippa with rewards and promotions.
Even before Octavian unofficially became the emperor (he still pretended he has restored the Republic during his life) their relationship was like a king and his general. Agrippa wasn’t from a family back round where it would have been possible for him to take charge, and Octavian was Caesar’s heir.
“Never outshine the master” I hope Han Xin would learn something about that too!
Agrippa was fine at his number 2 spot. He seemed to relish his role as the right hand. Loyalty, competence, wisdom and capability are astoundingly rare to find in a single individual that high up in the power structure.
Always a good day when Historia Civilis puts out a new video
a total of 5 good days every year
Getting pumped when that battle bassline starts to play.
Unoriginal line
I’m grateful for the 5 good days.
M K, you’re welcome to be original. I had no such intention
AGREED
The Battle of Actium was definitely a brilliant play by Marcus Agrippa. He was able to outmaneuver the quinqueremes with triremes. This means increased discipline by rowers and good pilots to ram and pull back and avoid being boarded or counter rammed.
*a bad play by cleopathra
it also helps that antony was an idiot.
Man I love the work you do
I really do
I hope to see many more of these videos at this quality before you stop
Seconded!
Please never stop 🍕
And with the nature of the internet, these will essentially exist in perpetuity for many people to enjoy/learn
If jupiter bless us he will only stop in 476 a.d
I hope he does other periods in history like this, i'd kill to see him do the Sengoku Jidai
I am increasingly coming to believe that Agrippa may be the most likely candidate we have for an actual time traveler. He was thinking of war in such a completely anachronistic manner, and was so ahead of the curve that I'm wondering if you seached his home if you'd find a tricked out DeLorean.
Marty McFly may look eerily like Agrippa.
I would like to see a movie about an ex-military time travelling back to Ancient Roman times to apply modern warfare tactics in an ancient context.
Given all the times he saved Octavian's ass from certain defeat, I'm willing to bet he was sent back in time to ensure the formation of the Empire.
@@Arbelotmodern warfare tactics would not do well in ancient times
You have mastered the format of historical retellings. Simple imagery and laymen’s terms to break down complex issues and systems. I love history, and you are one of the best teachers out there. Thank you for this awesome content.
Highest quality youtuber.
Simple animations and representations leave no room for exaggerations and misinformation. You are one of the most effective historians at displaying information in a way that's closest to the source material without embellishment.
You are the first channel I recommend to anyone interested in history.
Yes, I really appreciate the spare but elegant and effective graphics as conveyors of the narrative. It's a good visual analogue to a serious historian's sober and analytical approach.
Without embellishment? Dude is performing a fellatio on agrippa the whole vid
@@julio1116 commentary on the contents of primary and secondary sources isn't the same as embellishment.
I dunno about misinformation. I am currently reading Michael Parenti’s People’s history of Rome, and he most certainly paints both Caesar and Cicero in different lights. I mainly agree with his view of Cicero as a cretinous landlord who helped egg on, and enhance, the deep fissures in Roman political society.
But other than that, this channel has really brought so much extra depth to my understanding of classical civilisation, and inspired me further on to continue this love.
100% agreed
To me, Agrippa is the protagonist of any story he appears in.
I want an Agripplushie, I don't care if it is a low-quality red cube.
@@santigamerprogamer6493 with sailor hat
@@santigamerprogamer6493 Agripplushie
@@lkcdarzadix6216 And a sound circuit with the scooter effect
@@hagamapama and the UFO
I've honestly been binging this channel lately. I'd watch this stuff all day long. You're special man, keep doing what you do. It's on another level
Just a shame we have to wait months for uploads. Still worth it though.
He is legit the best because his presentations make everything so easily memorable.
I know it's unfair to ask of a channel literally named "historia civilis", but I want more 19th century content from him so badly!
I'd like to add just to Aggripa's move for Methone. It seems to me that another part of what he was doing was reading what Antony would have expected. Most major military crossings would be from Brundisium to the Apollonium/Dyrrachium area. By sailing from Rhegium(-ish) to Methone, he was gambling that Antony wouldn't really have a contingency beyond light garrisons. In this way, I think we're seeing Agrippa's military genius in how he read his opponents. He saw what convential Roman doctrine said and what history had shown and forged another path to go down instead.
it seems super obvious to me that Octavian had a mole in Anthony's camp. That would explain so much - Octavian may have sucked at fighting wars, but he was great at dealing with people, if there was anyone in that war that would have paid a lot of attention to intelligence and would have the skills to set up what we today would call an intelligence agency, it'd be Octavian, and if there's anyone who'd flip a high-ranking man in the enemy camp and know how to use their info while protecting his sources, it'd also be Octavian.
@@georgiishmakov9588 some senators left and went to Antony when Octavian's did his show of force in the senate just before the war.
All it would take is a few senators of the group actually being loyal to Octavian and being secretly told to leave and play intelligence.
Boom, done.
@@lorefox201 we don't know how good their opsec was - in the modern day, congresspeople aren't allowed near sensitive intelligence and get the safe for public consumption version of events, for a very similar reason. However, Anthony doesn't strike me as the sort of guy to think about opsec.
@@georgiishmakov9588 i was going to tell you just that, Anthony sounds like the kind of guy who brag endlessly about the latest fruits of his galaxy brain with whoever will listen tbfh.
I read about Actium for the first time 8 years ago, being 14 and starting to get into history by reading about Cesar and Octavian. I haven't understood how that battle could have been as usefull for Octavian and Agripa until now. Always felt to me like a minor defeat in comparison to what happened to Pompey at Pharsalus, but finally I got my answer. Really thanks a lot! This period of history is not only one of my favourites but also the one that got me into history on the first place. Your videos help me remember and get to know some details that I haven't ever heard before. I think you are my favourite history channel, love your work, keep on going!!!
We are absolutely spoiled with the quality content this channel produces... It gives me such a rush everytime he posts and the information is sooo well documented. I can't imagine the amount of work that goes into each video but I can say every single one of them is greatly appreciated. Thank you, Historia Civilis
Agreec
You know I literally just thought "Man I wonder whatever happened to Historia Civilis" and I am so stoked to see another video posted 30 minutes ago.
I had to stop following this channel for a while. Back when I was married this was the favorite TH-cam channel of my wife and I. After we split up I just could not deal with the reminder of it anymore. But I believe I'm past that and watching these videos doesn't constantly remind me of when we sat on the couch together and watched these.
How long ago was the breakup?
Best of luck, man. I’m glad you’re comfortable with watching him again
You know a channel is good when it becomes a part of your life, I hope you are doing good mate.
Agrippa is one of those rare military geniuses who knows which tools he has and how to use them the best possible way to overturn all of his disadvantages and counter his enemy's advantages.
Same breed as guys like Jan Žižka, Fernández de Córdoba, Von Moltke or Philip II.
He also though of war like a general from literally many centuries after. Is almost absurd that he was a 1st century BCE Roman general, with the way he waged war.
And Valeriy Zaluzhny
@@Jake007123 I wouldn't say it was unprecedented, even amongst the Romans, Scipio Africanus was famous for his land-sea cooperation and amphibious warfare, especially in his Spanish Campaign, centuries before.
You forgot to mention one of the biggest gigachads in US military history: Ulysses S. Grant.
Agrippa's quick move to box in Antony is insane. Reminiscent of Napoleon and such. Here I was thinking Antony was the one that could afford a waiting game (since he could be growing his army as much as he wanted in the East waiting for Octavian and preparing the terrain), but with this strategic move by Aggripa, the chessboard was completely turned around.
Antony’s biggest blunder was chasing after Octavian, then on top of that waiting whilst receiving no supply. Generals “wait and see” are historically the worst kind specially in situations that rely on time.
It’s never a good move to allow someone to disturb your supplies, Antonius should have known that and moved to South. I assume he was too focused on Octavian as a person.
Agrippa is in my opinion the most under rated person in all of ancient history and an easy top 5 Roman of all time, so it gives me ungodly pleasure seeing you so thoroughly detail his genius and exploits.
Beating other Romans are cringe
@@PRubin-rh4srL
I love that there are two very different stories out of the one same scene.
On the one hand, Cleopatra convinces Antony of some cunning plan to get out of this seemingly hopeless fight, which he still manages to almost screw up and get himself killed, leaving the man dejected and humiliated sailing away with his foreign wife, feeling like he's betraying his own soldiers and his fellow Romans.
On the other hand, we have a story of a woman who talks her headstrong husband into a crafty ruse, then doesn't bother mentioning that the plan never involved him coming with, and now Antony sits here on this ship, keeping up appearances, knowing that even his wife might betray him.
Might be a combination of the two
Im a bit tempted to hang towards Cleopatra seeing which way the winds were blowing. Antony was deffs left out to dry having to swim like that, and the reserves move could have done some damage if it were a tactical trust instead of a pure play to get out. Maybe Antony had been left to think these reserves were for exactly such a thrust, only to be left scrambeling when it turned not to be the case. Worth knowing if these reserves Cleopatra was sailing with were large enough to militarily make a difference. Either way, the sudden nature of it all smacks off Cleopatra getting cold feet
@@Stevrovich it was 85 state of the art warship you bet they could have made a difference
@@lorefox201 I concur, they could have relieved Anthony’s flank and there was still a shot at victory. But they fled-stupidity at its finest, how could cleopatra not anticipate the defections after that?
@@hx5525 Cleopatra was an able politician and pretty ruthless in seeking political advantage, not a military commander.
I'd bet Cleopatra saw the writing on the wall before, and during Actium. She'd be willing to ditch him and, as she'd done before, sway Octavian into her having a strong position. IMO, she abandoned him, but unluckily he didn't die in the battle, and she was now stuck with him. Now, with hindsight, to the end of her days.
Maybe she pressured for a sea battle because she saw exactly the opportunity she'd need to escape?
@Jace Rivera the problem with your logic is that there wouldn't be a battle, the army would just starve
mostt likely she was always for Egypt not anything else
She later tried to make deal with Octavian
I do think she was kinda dumb and dint realise that if Antony deasnt win she and Egypt are doom
Historia Civilis dropped a new video, the whole world rejoices
One of my students wrote an assignment about Octavian riding into battle at Actium. I hated to have to tell him it was a sea battle! Mind you, Horace says in one of his epodes that O was seasick and watched it from the safety of the beach, not that my student knew that.
Must have been a shocker when he realized that Octavian wasn’t even in the battle he just slept from boredom lol.
I really like how you analyze Anthony's decisions without falling into the trap of just considering him an idiot, because a) he wasn't and b) it helps to highlight agrippa's genius in the battlefield, as he was able to consider aspects of warfare that not even the best generals of his time would think of
I have to agree, I think Antony’s mistakes were not stupid but his military doctrines were so out matched
He did not place enough importance on the logistics or navy, it says enough that when given the choice of marching north for a big army battle or securing logistics he chose the battle.
I read him as a good tactical leader but compared to Agrippa a poor strategic thinker
It seems as if Agrippa's strategy had a gamble hidden within it: he gambled that Antony would think like a Roman, which was a pretty safe bet. He would want to come to grips with the main strength of the enemy and destroy it. If Antony had headed south, and secured his supply lines, time would have been on his side. And I doubt that even Agrippa could have held him off until Octavian came to relieve him. Still not a great shot at winning, but it would've been better I believe than the shot he had by going north.
To be fair, if your gamble is predicting your enemy will act exactly how they have always acted and how everyone else would, then every decision in life is a gamble, because that's near certain
Agrippa could always retreat via sea with his veteran sailors, but I still would have marched/sailed south to ensure that very outcome at the least. And there's no hindsight here, even in their day the criticality of a functional supply line is not revolutionary, it's why he set it up in the first place. But of course, the decision to move the supplies entirely by ship along the west coast WITHOUT ESCORT seems ridiculous.
Even absent escort, where were the ships to react to Agrippa's actions? Why did he not immediately move in and pin Agrippa landlocked inside his single captured port using his all those ships of his accompanying his army? At the very least why not intercept your supply ships in advance of Agrippa's position and reroute the deliveries to the east into Athens and re-establish your lines with an over land second half? Why not do that from the start?
Some wars are won, and credit to minds that win them. Not to take anything from Agrippa, but some wars are simply lost, and credit to the mediocrity that lose them. Antony fucked this up and kept fucking it up.
@@possibly_a_retard with his superior fleet and probably much better sailors why didnt he Chase agrippa off? I think it has something to do with HC saying octavian landed earlier and to the norther than expected. I can imagine Anthony deploying mass of his fleet to do as much as damage to crossing octavian. I specalute he sent ships to south but with local superiority agrippa couldnt be dislodged. It was a really good plan that played on anthony's ineffectiveness. He was a great lieutenant under caesar but not a great commander on his own. But of course these are specalutions.
Octavian was known to be the weaker tactician vs Agrippa. He probably thought it would be easier to beat him, and with him beaten maybe it would have been over.
In other words... Anthony was playing chess but Agrippa's playing poker. Anthony think it's gonna be a typical Roman campaign... Agrippa's playing a different game.
I don't know why you used that Jetson's sound for Agrippa, but it works perfectly
Historically accurate
I live in Preveza, in the straits of Actium, between the ruins of Actia Nicopolis (meaning the city of victory) that Octavian build to honor his victory at Actium. The city would be the biggest Roman city in Greece and would reach more than 150.000 citizens and it would still remain an important Byzantine city till 1204 AC that it was destroyed by the Bulgarians. Octavian also brought back the Actian Games from Ancient Greek times and they were made the biggest sports event for a while (bigger than the Olympic Games).
Watching this on a September 2nd, almost two thousand years later, it's still one of the most gripping stories in history.
You mean, Agripping story?
@@liammorrissba-dum crash 🥁
Love that you give Agrippa the credit he deserves. Dude was a boss, perhaps one of the greatest Roman commanders ever. Agrippa reminds me a lot of Labienus, but much more loyal.
labienus is beta version agrippa is full release
Good thing I just rewatched the Roman history playlist over the past few days.
PSA: I’ve been falling asleep to them and it gives me some crazy dreams where I’m a Roman Statesman and am fighting not to be murdered by Clodius.
Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for? - Marcus Agrippa 31 BCE
"COME ON, YOU APES! YOU WANNA LIVE FOREVER?" - Marcus Agrippa, before he underwent his naval campaign
Honestly the best way to learn about the battle goes into the context with depth
Yep
I'm having a hard time imagining how you could see Antony's actions as anything other than the depression of betrayal.
Antony lost battles before…this had to have been betrayal
If Cleopatra wanted to betray him, her other actions don’t make much sense. She might have miscalculated how the battle was going and too early activated the plan B escape plan. But I would not see this as outright betrayal
Agrippa fought a 20th century war in the 1st century BC. A military genius ahead of his time. Credit to Octavian for letting Agrippa do what he needed to. Antony was clueless as to what was happening to him and thus ended up losing.
So happy to be watching the premiere for this famous battle. Thank you, HistoriaCivilis!
I did my history report for college recently on Agrippa specifically because of your vids. Amazing works.
Agrippa is soooo underrated in discussions of history’s great generals
Livia totally had him killed
@@cpob2013 source : old biased historians & cryptic symbolism in my dreams
Thank you so much for the effort you put in for these videos! These have been some of the few videos that I have been very excited for for the past year, and I really enjoy learning more about Ancient Rome in an easily digestible and interesting but not dramatized way.
the music this time was perfect. you always make masterpieces.
Just wanted to say congratulations. Your channel was in the newspaper as a recommendation for worth watching Roman history.
Marc Antony has always been one of my favorites in history. Especially Roman history. His story is a really incredible tale. And I wonder what the real story is. So many things are really speculation and just us assuming what sounds most reasonable/likely. Amazing video as always though Historia Civilis.
To me, Mark Antony seems like the enigma of enigmas in Roman history.
@@AbbeyRoadkill1 same, he's kind of a Roman legend though he was 100% real
The Battle of Actium has a weird place in my life as I watched S2 of Rome at exactly the time that life slapped me down hard so I can sort of see how Antony felt at the time. 3 years later I'm still trying to dig my way out but haven't fallen on my sword at least...
Not fallen on your sword, only into whine and whoring I guess. :)
I feel that, everything since I've felt since I graduated from college is regret for missed opportunities and bitterness for the success of others. Yet life still carries on and you have to walk forward.
Perhaps you should ask Tribune Aqilla for help.
Dude I literally waited for this video for like a year or so. Finally it's here. I love you man :)
Genuinely my favorite channel on TH-cam thank you for getting me into ancient history previously all I consumed was American history. This channel has been so beneficial to my mental progress
Octavian's diplomacy and Agrippa's strategy. What an incredibly efficient duo!
Damn. That's quite a distance to swim in such an inmense naval battle and have enough time to reach the center, rearrange some ships and follow Cleopatra all along.
Mark Anthony must have been quite fit.
I’ve always heard the Mark Antony was his times version of a “man’s man” he certainly was pretty fit
@@americanaccolon1319
It was bad generalling but extremely impressive swimming.
Give Antony a silver medal!
@@alanpennie8013 "Why didn't Antony get the Gold medal?"
"Agrippa beat him over the finishing line on a motorboat."
Banging Cleopatra every night seems to have kept in good shape
this duo of Octavian the politician and Agrippa the soldier is perhaps one of the best in history
Bro not kidding ur music choice and more importantly when u utilise is just mwuha
Why did I not learn about Agrippa in school?! One of the best tacticians/strategists for his time with multiple smashing successes in situations stacked against him
Because military is only a tiny part of history.
@@PRubin-rh4sr Not really, history is really the story of warfare throughout the ages. I know the fad these days is to pretend that everything every social class got up to mattered, but it's just not so, history is determined by a small number of people engaged in politics, diplomacy, and war. We understood this before Marxists infiltrated the system and started pretending the lives and fate of peasants was somehow relevant.
The portrayal of Mark Antony by James Purefoy in Rome was so good I always had a soft spot for him, despite his obvious shortcomings, he seemed destined to continue on where Caesar left off. Sadly it was not meant to be
I swear 'holding Greece for a civil war' was like the 'taking Russia in the winter' of ancient times
It did work for Sula's faction though in the first Roman civil war.
Thanks for pointing out the importance of Methone and logistics
Absolutely, unequivocally, one of the best History channels in existence. It’s almost better that the uploads are so infrequent. It only adds to the overall quality 💯.
Chose slow quality over quick crap everytime. Or you start looking like History Channel.nowdays
Mark Antony: I have an army
Octavian: I have Agrippa
Legitimately excited to see these videos released. Just a week ago, I listened to a "Hardcore History Addendum" with Dan Carlin and a guest talking about the Battle of Actium. Their podcast was over an hour long, and yet you managed to describe a better picture of the scene (in a geopolitical / tactical sense) and more of the juicy details in a 22 minute video. All of this is really helpful in providing a "3D view" of what this period of history might have been like.
P.S. the futurama-esque entrance of Agrippa gets me every time haha
The visuals also help with that,i would imagine.
There is nothing worse than having watched a new Historia Civilis upload and knowing you have to wait for the next one. Amazing video as always
The wait for the new episode is like waiting for a new elder scroll game. A long, and hard wait, but when they get here you rewatch it 10 times
upload
I bet after the battle Cleopatra was telling Anthony that Caesar would’ve won the battle with half the men and that’s why he didn’t talk to her.
Yep! A woman will leave you to die in an instant, in order to save herself.
@@xrcvbn Who? Sarah Paulson?
Antony was sulking and Cleopatra didn't really have a chance to say anything.
I think he waits so long between videos so that more history can happen.
i miss you historia civilis its been 3 months
these videos are always such a treat, so sad how rarely they come
Theres maybe 1 or 2 episodes left of the Octavian series, I wonder what will come after that. Continuing into the empire? Going back and maybe doing Marius and Sulla? More random English civil war videos? Retirement? Maybe something new and random like the politics of the Seychelles or the 2nd Congo War? So many choices.
He started an Alexander series that he only put a few episodes in
@@primusinterpares5767
I think he should at least cover the rest of Agrippa's life.
I want an in depth look into Augustus' reign.
Watching this series go from Caesar’s conquests to the sheer madness of trying to move on from his death has been a truly fascinating experience.
*So this is how liberty dies? With thunderous applause*
liberty had been dead for a while when Caesar got into the scene, not even Sulla could save the Republic and he acted as an exemplary Roman dictator leaving office the second it wasn't necessary for him to hold it anymore.
"BuT hE KiLlEd HiS PoLiTiCal RiValS!"
His political rivals were a lodge of snakes, the fact that he clearly didn't kill enought of them is the reason the repubblic fell. By when Caesar enters the scene it's a rotten zombie still walking.
Historia Will Say constantly "this and that that Caesar or Octavian did destroyed Roman politics" but they litterally did nothing the elite before them hadn't already done but worse.
music choice particularly inspired on this one, genuinely impressed with how well it works
The work and research this guy puts into his videos is unbelievable. I’ve been watching this account for nearly 7 years, and I have enjoyed every video on here multiple times. with still so many more to come, I look forward to it all. (Especially life after the republic) Thank you for the hard work you put into these videos ❤️
I like to think the Egyptian retreat was planned, but was also still a suprise to Antony. Maybe it was a back-up plan that went wrong. Antony may have told Cleopatra to pick him up and leave only if the battle went south. Maybe she assumed Antony's weakened position a loss and proceeded with plan b - retreat. Antony believing the battle was still salvageable would be angry with her and would be surprised at the retreat.
I think there may have been a plan to set sail with the treasure during battle if all seemed lost, but I am 100% convinced that Cleopatra set off by her own accord and essentially betrayed Antony. That is why he was distraught, compounded further by him knowing that swimming after your foreign wife and abandoning your men is not the best look - and then cemented by realising that he just lost the war and his time is up. I think what hurt him most though was the betrayal of Cleopatra, who no doubt had excuses like "I was doing what we planned" when it's quite obvious she hadn't
Thank you! This is sooo interesting and you present it so clearly. You are an inspiration!
The music in this one was just something else, damn!
Also great to see more love for Agrippa.
Your videos are one of the very few things that I actually look forward to. Thank you so much!
Best Xmas gift is a new History Civilis vid! Thanks for all your hard work! Amazing and gripping as always
A lot of people think that Antony is somewhat of a "lucky" and mildly-skilled general but if you think about it, the man is pretty smart when it comes to the broader strategic game, if his plan actually worked that is.
Nah, imma give u an L on that one.
In my humble opinion, there are several problems with that idea.
1 When antony served under Caesar and built his resume, Caesar had arguably put him and all the other soldiers in a good position in every battle. Therefore, none of Antonys successes here can be attributed to him, since Caesar is no question a better general. If u disagree with that point respectfully have a nice day.
2 to my knowledge Antony never commanded any battle and won against any commander more experienced or better than him.
3 when Caesar helped antony gain command and authority in the senate, antony miserably failed in dealing with unrest in the city and did have to bring roman soldiers to rome to kill civilians, not that strategic here either.
4 Antonys parthian campaign was a massive strategic failure. Even if u argue antony had good strategic planning and ideas for winning the campaign, which i do not agree, it was not very smart or strategically viable to hold parthias massive amount of territory over the long term. Therefore, fighting the campaign was a bad strategic decision with a massive opportunity cost that ultimately destroyed his military strategic game for the rest of his life.
5 The battle of actium would arguably have gone better had antony attacked agrippa instead of Octavian first when they both pursued him in greece. Although Octavian was a threat, he was not as skilled a general as agrippa, and could not have as effectively commanded against and defeated antony, thus giving antony a better chance to win if agrippa was permanently defeated, whereas the same is not as true with octavian gone.
6 The donations of alexandria was a terrible strategic move for antony for several reasons. Antony promised to his children territory he didn't have, which alienates foreign enemies and nations based around said territory disputes. Claiming Octavian was not Caesars only heir alienated Octavians faction and led to war before antony was ready for it, especially bad strategically considering Octavian knew arguably more about Antonys faction than anyone because they both fought together at phillipi and Octavian did little commanding but rather watched antony command most of the battle.
7 Octavian had promised to supply antony soldiers after his parthian defeat, so it is again very bad that antony alienated Octavians faction because it is known fact between them both antony is short the requested amount of soldiers in his army, if not short many more. This is a huge strategic weakness and not considering this differently beforehand to choose a different approach might have cost antony the war.
9 Cleopatra supplied many of the soldiers, food, and other supplies for antonys armies. Although this seems minor, consider that antony has to now get Cleopatras approval for important decisions which has massive repercussions. Antony has to winter in Egypt with Cleopatra to make sure of her cooperation, leaving roman territory vulnerable for too long until it is attacked by parthia and the local governor executed.
10 Arguably, it was a bad strategic decision to stay in Egypt especially for such a long time, or maybe even a bad idea for antony to ally with Egypt at all, because the alliance had risk of being broken and leaving antony even more vulnerable. Probably, antony was more inclined to accept and go along with this because of his affection and love for Cleopatra, and this could explain some of the poor strategic judgements by antony during this time. Antony probably just trusted Cleopatra too much, and she had too much control and influence over some of Antonys decisions, and vice versa. This romance caused a problematic dynamic in which the 2 leaders might have had too much significant difficulty separating work and personal matters.
With all due respect, where u at?
First all: always great to see another vid!
Second, my thoughts on Cleopatra leaving- i don’t know how much time it would take to stow sails, as if it was easy to do, my thoughts would be harder to find. However, if it took time to take them down, I 100% feel like Cleopatra intended to run. As for communication with Antony, he wasn’t told. Think about it, those 70 ships could have been used to fight, preventing (at least partially) encirclement by Agrippas ships. While I cannot be on the ground to get a good idea for how the battle played out, those ships could have made the difference. Instead she just left. Moreover, the the way Antony reacted is of someone who didn’t know what Cleopatra was doing. He literally jumped ship and swam for her. In short, Cleopatra played Antony, and he paid the price for it. Also, Agrippa is one hell of a strategist.
Ok, you've had you're fun now. Release the next video for the rest of us now please.
Dw its today
Late comment, but just wanted to say I love the addition of a bit more of your personality and narrating your personal thoughts. These later videos are great cause they illustrate your opinions about events, and you do it in an entertaining way. Cheers!
Is there anyone like this who could do Chinese history following the warring states period? Or Japanese warring states period? This is so well done and the style and use of moving unit markers to show a battle and narrate the sub plots and politics in the background is so well done yet very simple.
I love this channel. My favorite history channel by far!
This is the wildest New Vegas fanfiction I've ever seen... but seriously I love your Caesar series. I discovered it yesterday and I've been binging it since then.
I fucking shed a tear when i realized this channel is now a mere side gig of yours...
Quality! thank you so much for another incredible video. Others may have better graphics (I am so used to yours that I actually love it) but the quality is just another level. True historian. Thank you.