Fighting Irish Stance: Old School Strategies & Techniques
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
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The "fighting Irish" stance was and old school boxing stance used amongst bare-knuckle boxers, before the invention of boxing gloves. It was designed to protect the head and hands, the two vital parts of the competing fighters. Whether you've seen it used in movies like Snatch or Gangs of New York, or just recognize it from the Notre Dame football mascot, it's a symbol of combat sports history, and the evolution of martial arts. So is it effective in MMA with fighters like Conor McGregor, or is it just a way to pay homage? Comment!
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oh shit so in Sherlock holmes when Downey is throwing those palm strikes it's historically accurate who'd a thunk
thats Bartitsu
yes
Robert Downey was using 100% Wing Chun techniques in the Sherlock movies, he's been a practioner for some years and is quite advanced.
I have never heard anything about palms in English boxing except for this video. I feel like the sources Shane used might have been a little dubious (not his fault).
Owlblocks David: Nah, palms were used extensively in British boxing on the mainland and in Ireland. There's some good Irish stuff on it too.
Awesome, sir! Everything old is new again! So many styles of martial arts got watered down and earned bad reputations... but there's no doubt that the true old school guys knew what they were doing. Thanks for sharing your research!
So true. Same thing with music, too!
Glad to know I'm not the only one listening to Gregorian chants!
Pugilism is pretry cool
Shane loves MOUNTING MEN til they give in!!
Is that semen on his chin???
Who thought about the Overly Manly Man after seeing the thumbnail?
Mateusz Olesiński lol, I did
You mean because I was in it, right? :P
fightTIPS can you do fight like Coban lookchaomaesaitong or enriko Kehl
fightTIPS ahh shane i c u
fightTIPS Beautiful comeback!!!👌🏼
A couple of things I would like to add, depending on what era with what rules, (broughton, Queensbury) grappling was a big part of what was known then as pugilism (ex: cross buttocks), they did punch with their knuckles (vertical fist elbows down), the hand closest to the body was positioned there to protect the "Mark". You mentioned Mendoza, interesting fact he lost a fight due to his long hair. His opponent held him by the hair (legal grappling at that time) and pummeled him. Thanks for your vids.
This is interesting. I had a discussion with someone in my Jeet Kune Do class (and Bruce Lee based a lot of JKD on Western boxing because he recognized how effective its punches were), after he observed me holding my hands farther out. He told me I was doing it wrong and adopted the modern, orthodox boxing stance with elbows tucked in and the hands guarding the face. I pointed out that stance came out of the change to the Marquis of Queensbury rules and it's present-day descendant rules, and the use of gloves. The older stance was used in bare knuckle days, and there was a reason for that. The other person maintained that the modern version is categorically better, as if progress marches invariably and inexorably toward the better. If it's newer, it's more advanced, it's better. Period. That was his assertion. I pointed out that, no, things aren't quite that simple. The modern stance is a product of two key things: the rules of the sport, and the use of big padded boxing gloves that act like shields and thus allow you to defend with your hands closer in. Take the gloves away, and you have less surface area to block with, and your opponents smaller, ungloved hands also more easily slip past your defense. So in the old days, they had to intercept those incoming punches farther out. People usually do things a certain way in response to the conditions that have to face. Change those conditions, and it changes the way they do things. And people a hundred or two hundred years ago were just as smart as people today, and just as capable of figuring out the best way to address a particular challenge. If the stance was different under the old bare knuckle rules, there was a good reason for that. The modern stance is not INHERENTLY better in any categorical sense, it's just better under the conditions the modern sport of boxing is fought under. It all depends on context.
The modern boxing stance also puts the left leg well forward (or right if you're a southpaw), because it allows you to really drive off that back leg and get more power in your punches. And yet when boxers fight kickboxers, the kickboxer kicks the $#!% out that leg because it's such an easy target. I wish I could remember the fight I saw where the boxer was knocking the kickboxer down over and over in the first couple of rounds, because he was a better puncher and the boxing stance lets you punch with great power. But the kickboxer quickly figured out how to stay back out of punching range, and use his kick, with had a longer reach, to pound that forward left leg over and over again. Every time he closed the distance to punch, BAM, he'd take another shot to the left leg. And within another couple of rounds, the boxer could hardly stand up, and went on to lose the fight. Coming from a sport with no kicking, the boxer had no defense whatever against his opponent's kicks. The modern boxing stance is ideal for the modern sport of boxing, and its optimized for the rules and equipment -- and limitations -- of that sport. Change the conditions, and it may no longer be what works best.
Thanks for a thoughtful analysis.
Mate I'm not even gonna try and read that lol
@@Moostafa78 Not my problem.
@@Moostafa78 Are you cognitively impaired?
But now 5 years later when Bare Knuckle Fights get popular again, we can see that they still dont fight like in the old days.
I'd love to see Fighting Irish in Tekken or some shit! Hell even Mortal Kombay, Street Fighter, or a Martial Arts Flick
RJ Foyles I'm all for that.
Steve Fox
He had a sweep kick but I think everyone has one, as well as one jump kick. No problem man
Also a stomp followed by a hard punch.
+scorpion147able he's just a boxer tho
So interesting. I've always wondered why the stance was so unusual. Thank you for doing the research and publishing this👍 a big thumbs up
It works
Could you show all the dirty tricks from back in the day? You used gangs of new York as an example. So, a good example would be fish hooks and ear biting.
Ahh great suggestion!
I remember there being an account way back in Greece or Rome. In a professional fight, some guy "crab clawed" a guy in the stomach (grabbing the space in the middle of his abdomen with his fingers and the area between the abs and obliques with his thumb) and pulled the muscle out of place. The guy's intestines shifted and he had a very painful death. Can't remember if it was ruled cheating or not.
I was just thinking about the fish hook from that movie the other day. Isn't that just a really easy way to get your finger bitten off?
William Price They can't bite your finger off since it's hooked to the inside of their cheek, pulling hard outwards..
Most won't have time to react to your finger entering their mouth either.. But there's always a risk!
i keep picturing moe syzlack and his "stinger" glove, a boxing glove covered in barbed wire :P
why not make a "evolution" video for boxing stance and style for example and show early technique and the logic behind it, then show later and later stances in relation to the original. would be very interesting. would be a good way to deconstruct technique down to the core and enables viewers to understand rather than to mimic. no?
that and also do fighting stances from around the world. more videos like this on fighting stances, please.
Here here!
well that is why Asian traditional Martial Arts concentrate a lot on conditioning the hand and knuckles. Well conditioned hands can be surprisingly resilient.
Every punching martial art conditions your hands whether you intend it or not, mythical techniques like punching rocks and other equally unsafe stuff for conditioning won't make you less prone to injury, and it can actually have the opposite effect (making you more prone to injury). I believe shane actually has a video mythbusting that notion that "the harder the conditioning, the better".
Yeah you can condition your hands and various practitioners of Asian Martial Arts do it sensibly.
However people all over the world like to jump into that by doing things like punching concrete walls which really just fucks up your hand.
Hell,when you start off,even using big boxing gloves is tough on your hands when you're punching the bag,let alone anything else.
Conditioning is great,and if you ever intend to use fists in a 'real life fight' you should do it.
Just be aware that you have to do it very carefully and at a slow pace(in terms of years) to do it without fucking up your hands and being sure you do it right(plus it takes slightly different eating habits than otherwise).
melchaios well not if you wrap your hands. The skin stays soft and wrists are weak when fighting bare knuckle.
Modern western sports fighting don't do any wrist strengthening exercises and that is a fact.
I guess today almost every boxing coach will tell you to start everything with the jab. You just don't hit with full force recklessly. Sport apllication aside, you'd better hit hard using only the elbow, instead of the fist.
***** Actually the fact is it does strenghten your wrist and hand. Even with all the padding, repeated trauma will create the bone remodeling that implies the conditioning you talk about. Could you condition your hands beyond that? well that is not so easy to answer. "Extra" conditioning while it could make your hands a little bit stronger (not that much though) in theory, it could very well as easily be detrimental. The fact is that the microfracture mechanism behind knuckle conditioning must not be abused, certain degree of microfractures with calcium deposition is OK and does have benefits, however if you start to abuse it then it has the opposite effect, making your bones a mess of microfracture callusses that actually make the structure weaker. Not only that, but when you get older you'll start suffering from artrhitis, which depending on the severity could be incapacitating.
The notion that only asian self defence oriented martial arts condition their hands correctly is a myth, there aren't any real studies comparing different fighters from different disciplines bone density to support that claim. And from a medical and sports medicine point of view, hand conditioning by punching bags with proper protection is the way to go, everything else is overkill and could be hazzardous
Used this style during a spar, I felt manly as well as victorious!
Under the London Prize ring rules there was extensive grappling, particularly throws. Therefore you needed a long guard to keep the opponent out of grappling range....
From what I've seen from Oz Martin, clinching was very prevalent.
All it does is expose your legs. I doubt that is the reason..
SgtGo London prize ring rules forbade any grasping below the belt.
Disciple of Khorne
Oh, okay.
SgtGo That and they didn't lean back like Shane is doing, they stayed fairly upright.
Great to see the old style of fighting reemerge.
This lost style has always been very interesting to me.
Please post more information on these great moves in the future.
Also some info on the teachings of Carl Cestari and his teachings would be
very informative . Great subject , Thanks
Tried it. Doesn't work. Surgery's next Tuesday.
what happened?
r/wooosh
Wuh happend
I Want Makoto To Cradle Me In Her Strong Arms 🤣🤣🤣
th-cam.com/video/fZ6AN8xOWv0/w-d-xo.html
Many of these strategies & techniques are also used in Mantis, Hung Gar, Shaolin GongFu & Wing Chun. Thanks for the video, really enjoyed it.
I bet you're an Avatar - Last Airbender fan
Looks almost like a Conor McGregor stance
John White bullshit
+KyokushinAvocado he kinda right
***** just because he's Irish doesn't mean shit....McGregor is switching between the bladed karate stance and the traditional boxing stance with his shoulder up and his other hand down...or something in between
I agree. He doesn't keep the hands in the same position but the way he often stands totally upright and slightly tilted back is like this.
It is actually very similar version of this
My uncle was a boxer in federal prison. He used a similar style but not exactly this. His footwork was good and he would block with his forearms in a sweeping motion and counter with amazing speed and accuracy. He was undefeated in prison and on the streets and I witnessed him use his hands in many of fights over the years as He lived in my house growing up and he and my dad rolled with a rough crowd of bikers and convicts. He was a short guy but extremely muscular and well conditioned from over ten years of bodybuilding and prison life. He was fearless, smart, had absolutely zero tolerance and would kick someone’s ass for disrespecting woman, children or the elderly. If someone were to come at him I was never worried, I just thought I myself “ oh shit, this guy has no idea what’s coming “ hahahhaha the good ol’ days. I miss him!
I miss him to.
Cool
None of this happened
@@sugmasigmahow the fuck you know?
We have the exact same hand guard in choy LI fut. Even the kwa(swinging backfist) is the same.
original bareknuckle stance and punching technique in general is very simmilar to traditional asian styles.
You don't deserve "dislikes". Love your work Shane. May God bless you.
Ah thanks so much :) But no one is ever universally liked, and that's okay!
Always stay strong and positive though! :)
***** Shoukran (thanks) alot Akhi (brother) for taking time and replying, that just showed how nice person you are.
Love from Middle East.
i wonder if sherlock holmes was the first one to change the stance like on that movie with robert downey junior
Frost Freerunning I was thinking the same thing, had a lot of wing Chun in it
I did a bit of Wing Chun once and instructor said to imagine hands like an old school boxers stance
Yeah, but afaik that comes from the fact that RDJ does Wing Chun himself. I think I saw it in an interview once.
the british were big time boxers back in the day and probably brought some wing chun back from Hong Kong in 1700ds
Frost Freerunning sup, the Robert junior fight, he uses Wing Chun Kung fu, u can search on the Internet. And Robert is a wing Chun practitioner for real. Wing Chun is the first martial art of Bruce lee
In London Prize rules boxing wrestling was allowed. However nothing on the ground was allowed. Everything had to be done from your feet. So throws, kicks, headlocks and even holds were allowed.
Grabbing below the waist too, right?
Jg3000 aa
"Grappling was not allowed"....
Do you know about bare knuckle boxing history? Much of bare knuckle boxing back in the day allowed for takedowns, stomping or kicking the opponent who was on the ground, sometimes they got involved in certain holds after the takedown, shin-kicking or "purring" as they called it was allowed. Bare knuckle boxing in the West isn't quite what we think of these days. Eventually rules started changing such as gloves, no takedowns below to the waist to no takedowns at all, and many more changes in which at a certain point became boxing as we know it. All of that was perfectly legal not even 200 years.
I think the rules started getting made after the first fatality.
The first fatality happened long before the rules came into play. It has more to do with champions.
Grappling was mostly banned because it was boring. You allow for a full range of techniques, and fights either last seconds or hours. The crowds naturally gravitated to promotions that introduced rules encouraging interesting, competitive fights.
Correct.....this guy is talking rubbish!!!
Hip throws were very much part of the sport and when the Irish Champ Dan Jack Langan took on Tom Spring at Worcester in 1824 the reports from the time credit Langans better grappling with keeping him in the fight until eventually succumbing to the precise striking of his taller opponent .
If you get a chance, check out the book,"King of the Gypsies", by Bartley Gorman and Peter Walsh. A biography which reaches into the history of turn of the century Irish and English bareknuckle boxing.
Nice job looking comfortable throwing those attacks as well! They should get you on a movie set.
I'm going to look for this- thanks!
wow, this is really illuminating. For a bareknuckle approach this makes a ton of sense.
First and Irish
;)
You had me at palms, I study Wing Chun with a lilll Muay Thai sprinkled in and I agree with multiple punches to the skull being iffy. Your palms can take and receive much more force repeatedly to hard surfaces safely. The beautiful thing is there are a variety of palms. Fuk Sao "whip hand" is a forward strike using the outside base of the palm, below the pinky (palm facing down). There is another move where you use the same surface, but in a "inward strike" with the palm up. Then you got your straight palm (finger tips up, forward strike to head), side palms (Same as a straight palm, but finger tips are pointed out and strike area rotates slightly), and low palm which is a side palm but strike is to the abdomen.
I want more of this, Shane. This is great stuff!!
Ah great to hear, will do!
hey man I really like this stanza could you do more video's of this stanza
I clicked on this thinking it would be a total riff on old school boxing and was pleasantly surprised to see the subject given it's due respect. Thumb up!
Hey Shane which martial art did you start off with? Sorry if you've already answered this question
i believed he started taekwondo when he was 9
Triggering Seb I'm pretty sure it was tee Kwan do.
You guys know me too well, haha. Yep, at 9 I started Taekwondo. 15 I started Muay Thai. And at 20 I started Boxing.
+fightTIPS SHANE REPLIED!!
somemysteriousguy Shane always replies
Fascinating stuff I did wonder how boxing evolved from the old days but never thought I would know. Shows how much passion you have for martial arts to study a form this old 🙂
This is actually so cool! I'd love to see a proper old time tough guy fight a modern MMA guy
Planning on transferring into MMA for that reason
But it also depends on the rules under which the fight is done, because in those days, in many fights you could kick the balls, grab your opponent's hair to hit him, headbutt, bite, attack the eyes, etc. A fighter of old bare knuckle boxing under the rules of modern MMA would be very limited.
Shane, for someone who didn't know much about this stance, you looked like a pro demonstrating it!
Shane, please make a video on traditional karate stance.
Which one? Neko Ashi Dachi? Sanchin Dachi? Kiba Dachi?
Karate stances are not actually fighting guard stances but weight translation movements for grappling, joint manipulation, throwing, striking and more. The traditional fighting stance was called "meotode" (lit. "husband and wife hands") and is something in the middle between regular boxing guard and the video old style guard. It is not well understood in today karate and it is performed with both open hands or closed fists.
www.geocities.ws/karatejmh/Pictures/ChosinChibana.jpg
@@varanid9 just kamai
Your videos are very very helpful. I'm an amateur kickboxer and your info on certain workouts and Health tips are extremely helpful. Thank you for these uploads
they fight like that because they are drunk
English prizefighter professionals were all drunk?
Owlblocks David Yes
Owlblocks David it's possible. BAS used to fight drunk
Owlblocks David if they were irish they were drunk :p
Luke Petersen
Shane, I love your vids. I'm a boxer myself and I can honestly say that your techniques have further improved mine and my overall fighting knowledge. I always recommend your videos when showing people the basics. best of luck in your business and always good vibes
That gate block is similar to bong sau or man sau in wing chun
Does Muay Thai use it too with the framing long guard/figure four guard? Or is that different?
dankgankmon the long guard is the same as a man sau but man sau is mainly used against the neck of the opponent when used as a frame
I was thinking similar
long guard is not a block for a specific strike it is to keep yourself at distance when throwing elbows
The only real difference is the bend in the elbow opposed to straight arm for Muay Thai
Props for the Philly Shell reference, it's how I know your for real with boxing and not just a MMA. Subbed for that right there. I've been messing with using a Tae Kwon Do back-stance (I'm a converted southpaw, all power up front) and with a Philly Shell gaurd. But only from home as I've not trained in a while due to a string of injuries. Had some no-contact sparring with a friend and former regional boxing champ, so no kicks, just out in the street, possibly after a few too many, sparring. But I found with the lateral shoulders the left hand is hidden behind the chin and harder to see coming, I woulda had him with the 1st 2 shots, both straight lefts, quite McGregor'esque.
Charles Bronson skilled at this brawling style(Hard Times). 🙋
Hard Times! Great movie
A classic🎥
The bald opponent “hey you’re pretty good” (blocks with the top of his head)
They did punch using knuckles but they use to condition the hell out of their fists and forearms. Check out old school bare knuckle boxing with the late Carl Cestari and you will see why they fought the way they did. Carl did extensive research and training in the old school stuff and it is brilliant to watch. He explains the do's and dont's of the old school way in great detail. Amasing to see his take on it. Highly recommended.
I love this style, thanks for making this video shane, I do think this style would work in a street fight if you learn it and it's more of a defensive power style so it's perfect for people that are not very fast, shane can you make a video on trying to beat an opponent that's really good at boxing footwork and one on using a over hand right and a left hook in a combo like in that movie southpaw that guy uses a over hand right and a left hook one right after the other and I wanted to know the pros and cons of using those punches like that thanks again bro
it was a pretty brutal and effective fighting style, with its most violent iteration being a variation called "rough and tumble boxing". it was a very vicious version that placed emphasis on gouging eyes and disfiguring your opponent as much as you could, they even used bites and fishhooks to rip parts of the face
It may actually be better for street fights than modern boxing. All techniques on modern boxing are based on you wearing gloves, tight blocking and shoulder rolling may not be that good of an idea in a bare knuckle situation.
it's very interesting how many of the "no gloves/wraps" boxing styles have very similar techniques, stances, and methodologies. (i.e. pugilism, wing chun, tiger shaolin, karate, etc.).
as a Wing chun practitioner I made the same consideration :)
PUT 'EM UP!
Fernandez3995 Yeah!
It got told to me that long ago more body shots were used to save the knuckles. Loved the video. I didn't know much of what you told us. It makes sense.
Conor McGregor stands like that with open palms when he hasn't got his hands down
I think his is for different reasons and is just different though. He does that to gauge the range, and because he likes to use leg kicks.
He does it because he's Irish and wants to pay homage to his culture. Also because he thinks it looks cool. It's more sentimental than functional in his case.
@@ThaBurnnahKidd not because he looks cool , but it's been proving to be an affective stance
Really clear and respectful explanation of something I've wondered about for decades.
What about a Pankratrist's stance?
Very similar, yes! Also similar to how Royce Gracie fought back in the early UFC's
I think it work. It still retain the traditional martial art concept of blocking or shielding against strikes.
Grapelling was allowed right up until the Marquess of Queensberry rules were implemented. There were several stances, three that I know of. In this stance the back hand protects the sternum, so your opponent can't wind you.
wow I like this, the irish r smart
hell yeah man i love the way the palm heels are thrown. really driving it in there. it can make for more compact strikes as well. i like how you can push with the palm heel, versus plain old impact. great for creating space. throw it right at his chest/shoulder if they're too far in like a one inch punch.
Why? Because we're hard as fuck, that's why
lmao
Captain Ireland4 It's called the fighting Irish stance, but it was actually made in England.
+fightTIPS the absolute best movie to see the Irish fight stance in action is the 1970's Charles Bronson movie called " Hard Times " ,which has about 6 good fight scenes & it set in the great depression era ,it's a classic movie based on bare knuckle pick up fights .
Looks like wing Chun.
thought that too
PREM SADIA
More like Bartitsu
Was also think the same
way more similarities than we like to pretend
yeah but this defense seems a little bit more open and effective. However I think wing chun punches might be more explosive and effective.
FYI: Daniel Mendoza was the first "Peek-A-Boo" style..he was fighting more squared with both hands in front (rather than side wise as Shane points in the video), he invented side stepping, ducking and slipping.. :-)
I saw an article awhile ago, comparing the Diaz brothers to the old school, bare knuckle boxers. Some of the stance & technique similarities
Nice video.
My grandmother’s Uncle had the longest boxing match (his name was Jack Burke) went 110 rounds with Andy Bowen in the late 1800s. I loved his stance. Very similar to wing chun (something I’ve cross trained for years with Kickboxing and BJJ). It’s all fighting people ! OSU !!
Most people are right handed so they use the left for blocking. Also they would hobble back and forth and sideways. It was to catch haymakers and power blows overheads while the right counter jab your jabs. Also it was designed to fight against multi people back then. Irish vs Italians. The knuckles were used for the stomachs to make them wobble then you hit them with the smackeroos. Wpix channels. Thank you
The stance is similar to Wing Chun but uses closed fists. A big reason is bone structure alignment and using the natural flow of the joints and lining them up at their strongest points.
By watching this video I kinda think you look part Irish
This was an interesting video. I do have a couple of comments. I think the reason for the eventual switch to the overhand (or neutral) stance vs. underhanded was the better ergonomics of the former. An overhand or neutral rotation is a more natural posture and lends itself to more natural movement. To understand this, the next time you retrieve something from the refrigerator, try doing it underhanded. Fully extending your arm while your knuckles are pointed down is uncomfortable. Furthermore, the overhand position allows you to generate more power from a jab, cross, or hook. The only punch you're better aligned for with an underhand stance would be an uppercut. Since most fighters through many more jabs, crosses, and hooks than uppercuts, an overheand or neutral position is preferable. Finally, overhand positioning allows for better use of the hands in catching or parrying an opponent's punches.
Shane why are you making a video about something you clearly don´t know anything about?
1. The main target WAS the body because of the bare fists. Especially the "mark" which is the solar plexus. This explains the position of the rear hand/arm which protects the "mark".
2. They did strike with the knuckles. They landed the shots with the three lower knuckles in a diagonal/vertical manner. Every old boxing manual from the bare knuckle boxing era teaches this.
3. Grappling WAS allowed. Depending on the area different techniques were allowed but in general wrestling was a huge part of pugilism. Which this stance is also a result of.
Bro, shane has more knowledge and experience than you stop tryna act like u know what ur talking about. stfu
@Zachary Desroches this guy's actually correct
Bas explains how palm or wrist striking gives you an additional 2-3 inches of windup speed or momentum. Especially if mounted.
nice explanation makes sense. styles were made by circumstance, the ones that didn't change with time in the right direction are made fun of now.
What'd you read to figure all of this out?
There are some historical sources. English Martial Arts is a channel that has a slightly different interpretation of classical pugilism; I think it might have listed sources for reading.
The channel also often enough links towards a web page where you can join a course(in a way similar to Shane's fight gym) and see various instructional videos,read books etc.
But even without paying for that you can follow the youtube channel and learn+there are some books on this(also mentioned on that channel).
Oz(the creator of said channel) also often enough posts in a facebook group about it all too. :)
Check out 'UK HEMA - Historical European Martial Arts in the United Kingdom' for that.
So let me guess this straight, you are telling me that guy ask for money to show you what should be historical and cultural patrimony? He is asking people to pay him for teaching them something he learned over PUBLIC historical manuals? That could not be right... or is he teaching HIS way of understanding? In both ways is deplorable.
He's asking for money so he can continue teaching.
It's not vast sums spent on luxury and personal pleasures,as far as I'm aware it's used to buy other manuals(I agree they should just be publically available but often times are not and you have to buy/rent the rights to use them).
He also spends that money on the space in which he teaches and the equipment he and his students use.
Why's that unfair of him?He wouldn't be able to teach people otherwise.He's not going to create money out of thin air that he can use for the space,equipment etc. (and within the capitalist system you do need that,sadly that's how things are).
Luken Crowheart so is it also deplorable for my accountant to charge me for doing my taxes? That whole process is publicly available information.. If both parties willingly enter into a mutual exchange (as in the consumer receives an expected product or service as advertised and the seller gets compensated as advertised) then how can this also be deplorable?
Very kung-fu tiger strike like technique to strike with the palm then rake with the claws when drawing the arm back, great video Shane :)
I've also heard having your knuckles facing the side the person can punch you in the forearm(as in the bone when the arm is facing that way) whereas if the arm is turned in the Irish stance there is more meat in that part of the forearm
idk where you got your info from about not using knuckles but your dead wrong
He's actually right. If you're throwing punches at the face, you have to remember that there are bones in the skull. Bone on bone contact? Good game your fingers.
If you're going ungloved, using your palms is much safer. Don't believe me? make a fist and throw a light uppercut on your chin. Feel the sharpness of that chin bone against your fingers and tell me all your fingers would be alright when throwing a full force uppercut. Same with the cheek bone and jaw.
You obviously havent seen modern day bare knuckle boxing
Robert - you are absolutely right.They did of course use knuckles - almost exclusively. Did they break their hands - yes - all the time.This has been noted over and over in old books and is a key reason for the invention f gloves and the formulation of Queensbury rules.More bro science on the internet folks.
*you're dead wrong.....
That's why pugilists threw a lot of straight punches with a vertical fist. Better structure. And probably why the solar plexus region ("the mark") was a preferred location if possible.
Your head is the castle, your hands are the fort. It's just that simple. They also didn't have this big cotton swaps (gloves) on the end of their hands to use to protect their face. Bare knuckle boxing is closer to a real street fight. You are absolutely correct that the big bones of the head plus all the bony prominence like the teeth can mess your fists up real bad. This is why I always hit with an open hand, always. It's a more natural weapon than the tiny bone knuckles. Glad someone else looked back at the old fighters.
Let me just say, those panning shots while you were showing the strikes looked great.
I dont know if it works or not but you did a great job with the vintage face impresion. Recently subbed and taking it one video at a time, so much useful info!! Thanks for such generosity!
Oh thanks you changed my life after learned this with you, my mom never complained again of me not going to school
That's.... actually really legit. I've often wondered about that stance, but as he explains when you're fighting bare-knuckle that stance makes a lot more sense.
we used to have bare knuckle fights like this in high school, and it definitely comes in handy (art the right time) in a street fight. It makes for a very awkward rhythm to attack against if done right.
If I ever get in a fight I'm gonna use the fighting Irish stance! It just seems to make more sense.
I was wondering why you were palm-striking in the intro. I actually was thinking about palm strikes in standard boxing just this afternoon. Nice coincidence.
Wow man, always thought this style was just a joke. It's great that you've brought a video out about it, nice job!
As for why that stance is the way it is? Well, old school pugilism was heavily based on smallsword methodology.
The primary reason behind the extended stance was because defensive actions were not limited to dodging and taking a shot to an arm braced tightly against the body like in modern boxing. Instead, they would usually rely on stop-hits, interceptions, as well as outright parries/blocks with their arms and hands. And as most other martial arts have realized, it's easier to do this reliably with a stance that's more extended. Both hands were used offensively. But from a defensive point of view, the extended arm helps control the centerline, and the coiled rear hand helps deny access to "the mark" [the sternum], which was the preferred target in the bare-knuckle days. (VERY easy to wind someone, more reliably effective, and safer for the hands in general than head-shots.)
As for why they waved their hands about: "milling" was used because targeting the limbs was common practice, and so was grappling and throwing. (Remember the schoolyard brawl where one kid was held in a headlock while the grappler wailed on his head/body? That's known as the Chancery, and it gets its roots in bare-knuckle pugilism.)
The end result looked like an odd combination of a closed-fisted version of Wing Chun crossed with a smidge of some Krav Maga and an occasional shortened fencing lunge thrown in with the jabs. It's probably better to think of old-school pugilism as a completely separate entity from modern Boxing.
Could you give the reference for your theory of pugilists using palm strikes instead of the two three lower knuckles of the fist. Since I've read a couple of books by old pugilists and that's what they used. Some used palm strikes as an extra, but never as a base. Hammer strikes though were much used. Love your channel by the way. Great work.
Interesting 1st video watched and subscribed to your channel 👍🏽
The reason for this stance is what Jack Dempsey called the power line: your elbow has to be pulled in front of the hip. By using this stance you can leverage up off the floor in the most effective way, but with large gloves on it doesn’t work.
Fighting without gloves is completely different. That was a very good point. The gloves completely change the physics. The punch with a glove is dealing much more damage to the head.
Compelling upload, I've always been fascinated by the historic fighters and watching this vid is like bringing them back to life. You forgot to mention eye-gouging and strangling were also allowed then. It was really brutal.
I heard before the 1867 Marquess of Queensberry rules were introduced and boxing was often referred to as "Pugilism" grappling, high level wrestling was, well allowed. I may be wrong but we're talking about a time of underground fighting there would have been loose to no rules going on at times.
It's interesting that it is the basic stance I was advised to use when learning Kungfu. It seems like different styles had the same ideas before you could protect yourself with gloves.
have you seen any footage of james quinn-mcdonough? he was the king of the gypsies for a fair while. he fought orthodox, and while his right hand was normally what we would call conventional, he was prone to using the left in the extended stance, quite effectively too, i might add.
Interesting I train in Mantis Kung Fu and our stance is very similar except we switch from an open hand, a mantis hook and closed fist depending on the situation and what we plan on doing. Open hand or Mantis Hook if we are eye poking, eye raking, grappling, closed fist if we are punching. Anyways we also strike with the wrist bone. with back of the hands up and fingers down which is called an extra elbow. Basically if you hit with a body shot you could come back up with the wrist bone and clip someone under the chin with it.
Actually, bare knuckle boxing used london prize ring rules, which did allow grappling, so keeping the arm out was a good way to control grappling and clinching
I have to say,Shane,you are very informative and awesome.
Nope. You got this one wrong. They didn't used palm strikes, they used vertical punches and choppers (backfists), also they cared more about body strikes, because they were the most common (knuckle protection being the reason). Grappling was allowed and that was the reason for keeping your hands in front of you and elbows in.
I always thought the stance looked silly but now I see the importance of it Very interesting thanks for the info.
interesting, thank you for clarifying something i have wondered about but not enough to research myself
thanks, Shane I'm gonna do a bit more research into this
DUH THIS WORKS IS McGregor USES IT!!! It actually has principles like that of other Asian martial arts known today. Sweet bro.
Great video Shane keep it em coming! This is the best channel on TH-cam
Old School, so stylish !! Thanks
Very reminiscent of a Wing Chun stance. Also the use of Bong Sao is cool.
i always thought it looked so weird, good break down of what they were trying to do. makes so much more sense now:)
Dat stance actually reminds me of how most street ppl go at it! Except theirs looks like a mix of dat Old Irish stance and a Muay Thai stance! And when they throw punches, they're like sloppy overhands an' such! Some of y'all know what I'm talkin' about!
I can't fight like dat anymore; thank God!