Blowing up Single Action Army revolvers in .45 Colt is what ultimately led Elmer Keith to experimenting with the .44 Special and the eventual development of .44 Magnum.
Losing his trigger finger when a Colt SAA cylinder finally gave way probably added impetus to the choice. There is a Colt SAA in the NRA museum with a burst cylinder recovered from the scene of a battle between an army patrol and some Indians, so apparently the strength of the steels used by Colt (coupled with their placement of the cylinder notch) has been an issue since the beginning of the design. Colt didn't start using High Carbon steel until about the 1900s due to smokeless powder creating the need for that steel. I believe 1902 is when they first started proof testing with smokeless powder and placing the VP proof stamp on their SAAs (but not on their 1902 double actions which are made of low carbon steel from left over 1878 stock).
Gotta love Elmer: “The top strap and cylinder departed the gun, finishing up in the bronc corral.” Looks like a somewhat compressed load at 35 gr / 3f. Some who aren’t familiar with 45 Colt history may still wonder at old expressions involving “40 grains of powder,” but the .45 Colt case back in the day was a different animal than the solid head cases of the present, and would hold more powder.
Once again my 'rule of thumb' that you gain about 300 fps from handgun to carbine holds true. 👍 This alos shows for those naysayers that 45 colt ain't no joke. Never has been so don't tell me your wonder 9 is more powerful that 'that old wild west' load.
I think where both sides of the isle go wrong is the penetration over expansion. A 9mm hollow point can expand well and do a lot of damage while getting decent penetration from modern bullets and powders. 45 colt EXCELS at penetration which is definitely a needed factor in taking down large game.
Nice to hear the little cameo from your daughter. Families are the most important thing we have. Great video, those certainly have some thump to them. Elmer Keith was a genius.
I use Starline brass for my Ruger only loads in 45 Colt. I'm pushing a 325 grain cast slug over a load of 300-MP out of a 5.5" Blackhawk at 1,180fps and I have not had a single issue with the brass. I have also cut down 454 Casull brass and used them for this load as well but that brass uses a small rifle primer. Never had an issue with Starline brass and I have gotten a lot of re-use out of the brass before I have to replace it, even using it for Ruger only loads. Starline brass is simply the best brass I have ever tried for 45 Colt.
The old 45 colts varied in chamber and barrel diameters a lot more when that book was written. It could along with all the things you said, have caused case separations.
Very interesting all the loading of black powder in cartridges now days. I had read the Keith books Sixguns and Hell I Was There, lot's of good information in both. Good job with the testing on that load!
When I was a kid all the gun writers wrote about Elmer keith like he hung the moon im glad to see his stuff held up under testing not all heros have ...good video.
Back in the '70's I was shooting a 7 1/2" Ruger in .45 Colt. After reading some of Elmer Keith's works I determined to compress load my SOLID HEAD Winchester Cases with FFFg black powder and cast (original profile) 255 grain lead bullets. Took them to the police range and ran through the PPC course, firing 60 rounds, 7 yards back to 50 yards. Having been use to running the course of fire with .38 Spl. 148 grain wadcutters, that turned out to be a work out. To top it off, I could not touch the revolvers barrel after the first 30 rounds. Needless to say, that was the last time I shot that course of fire with that revolver and that load. Really enjoyed watching your testing the old Keith load.
Got my copy in 77 in a surplus place out side of Fayetteville NC while in 82nd . My best friend from h. s. Has been in r&d ect in the ammo industry for over 30 yrs . We ve shot bp together since 75 and have covered A LOT of topics . Recently while doing a batch of combustible cartridges for our colts we looked up loads from the civil war .I was shocked at how low some of the contractors loaded , 16 guns in some 44s ! But , in 1860s with a body hit the oil light is going to come on and you will probably die hard . Not very fast for sure , but fast enough .good channel ! Mark Baker. or around the rondy fire " sir happy pants" and the Kibler is beautiful .
@chris baker Hazard Powder Company made "Cartridge Powder" for makers of revolver combustibles; this was an extremely fine-grained 5Fg powder. I've made combustibles for my Uberti Remington Army using Swiss Null B (very fine grained 5Fg). 22 grains under a 220 grain conical moves at 940+ fps. Hits very hard and is very accurate all the way to 100 yards. The lowest charge I've seen listed on an original packet of .44 Army combustibles was 18 grains on a D.C. Sage packet. In my tests, 18 grains of Swiss Null B moves the 220 grain conical at 850+ fps from the 8" barrel Uberti Remington replica. Not exactly a weak load! BTW, Hazard's "Cartridge Powder" was made at the request of Samuel Colt in 1855, as Colt began manufacture of revolver cartridges. Colt's tin foil cartridges 1855-57 were poor and never became popular. But the switch to paper powder envelopes in 1858 made Colt's combustibles very popular, and opened the door for D.C. Sage, Johnston & Dow, H.W. Mason and many others to start manufacture of revolver combustible cartridges. H.W. Mason was the last manufacturer of combustible revolver cartridges, remaining in business until 1888! Gives you an idea of how popular the C&B revolvers remained, well into the cartridge era!
I agree with you on the Starline brass. I reserve it for my heavy 45 Colt loads, including the 365-gr jacketed bullet I designed. Sometimes I also cut down 454 Casull brass for the heavies.
@@Everythingblackpowder Yes, it's a jacketed rebated FN that I swage. I designed it years ago and Corbin built the dies. I was hoping to use it with sabots for muzzleloaders but could never find a sabot that would work with it. At the time I didn't have the money to have sabots custom injection-molded so decided to try in my handguns. Out of my Ruger Bisley Vaquero with the pinch sights, I can hit a pop can 5 out of 6 times at 100 yds.
@@Everythingblackpowder It's been quite a while since I've reloaded them, but would have been H110 or W296. They are the only powders I use for the big heavy handgun loads. And as you know are identical.
To add on too my other comment I would love to see this load tested with the original 2f beside these 3f hotrods and then 40 grains of 4F because why not lol would make for a fun video, your videos have really opened my eyes to the capability of black powder in certain cartridges. Would love to see those hot ass 38 special bp loads you cooked up through a carbine
Just about the best, most informative and most useful video I have watched in a long, long time! Thanks a lot for this loading data and performance test! I will definitely replicate a similar load and try it in my 4 3/4" Colt SAA and my '73 Winchester w/ 26" barrel. Can't wait to try it out on the range and maybe for hunting, as well.
All your videos are informative, enjoyable and just fun. This was very good, I have read of Elmer Keith’s exploits with Colt SSA. I have not pushed that far I see that in a modern SSA it may be safe. Good job.
Great show thanks.i too have the old tim books from around the turn of century.lot of black powder loads .and histery of powders.like thank its appreciated.
I experimented with this load a little over 30 years ago using 300 grain hard cast rnfp bullets and even upped the ante by going all the way to ffffg. I didn't have a chronograph back then though, but penetration was devastating and recoil felt like a magnum although I'm sure there wasn't really much difference in 2 through 4 fg. People would claim I was going to blow up my guns etc., but back in the 70's Lyman pretty much proved it to be hogwash about the pressures relating to 4fg...not that it doesn't increase as it does, but it's not like what many lead others to believe.
That is a pretty good amount of compression with a 35gr charge with a 300 grain bullet. It is a good thing those bullets are hard cast! I use a 20:1 alloy and have to compress and seat in two separate steps. Otherwise, I would have a smashed bullet nose.
You can put a tiny bit of mink oil or unique case lube to resize, highly recommend since Ive leaded up my .309 die sizing .312's. Cant wait to try a 45colt black powder load in my blackhawk.
Neat. Lots of interesting information and a great comment from Arnold. Sure glad Elmer made the effort and took the time to document what he knew and had experience with. Maybe there should be a National Keith Appreciation Day, where we celebrate the man with shooting events, and a moment of silence for all those like him and others. Keep your enthusiasm and the informative videos going. O.R.
It would be interesting to see a direct comparison in your Dragoon with this load in the 45 colt cartridge versus in the black powder cylinder, if possible.
There’s something deeply peaceful about leaving early before the wife and kids are up to go kick up some dust. Maybe grabbing a bite on the way home. I rarely skip a month and it makes life a bit more fun. I load an 1860 cap and ball with a 220 grain conical over 40 grains by volume and that thing hits like .357 magnum with 510 fpe. I use it for big critter defense out in the boonies and carry the .36 for self defense since it carries much nicer.
ive been looking at the walker loaded with two 148 round balls with 35-40 grains of powder. for blackpowder deer hunting season. still not sure if they would fully penetrate tho. its one of those if you only get one shot and you don't want it running really deep into the woods.
The marlin 94 numbers are definitely impressive. With a 250gr bullet and 16grs of 2400 out of my 20" 94CB best I can achieve is about 1250. I can crank the heat up a lot more of course, but I have no desire to.
I love that book. I rarely use my 1st generation Colts (but they are nice to have). His 2400 load with XTP bullets (instead of SWCs) feeds very nicely in my Win 94AE Trapper carbine. Devastating on deer also. I don't shoot lead bullets in the carbine because at anything over 1,100 fps barrel leading is a probablility and the design of the 94 is not super friendly when to comes to removing the lead. Yes, I know I could machine a longer rod for the Lewis lead remover I use with my .45 pistols, but I am happy with the XTPs in the carbine. Based on experience I am not convinced careful measurement of weight is truly needed in regards to 3F powder and solid head .45 Colt brass. BP requires a slight compression and due to the solid head construction of the brass I use putting 40 gr. of 3F in the case is a physical impossibility. Filling the case to about an 1/8 inch of the mouth usually gives about 35 gr. I am not concerned about + or - 1 grain of 3F. That is just me. I shoot a fair amount BP loads with Keith's 250 gr. lead (hard cast) SWC bullet in my more modern .45 pistols and I have not noticed any issues arising from + or - 1 grain of 3F BP.. I concur fully with Keith's discovery that the SWC's shape gives superior results on both game and paper targets. I did gas check his 240 gr. lead bullet for my .44s, but that is a different topic.
I like the looks of your Ruger. It is interesting how the works of someone like Elmer Keith are still relevant today. Still we are trying how to fire heavier and heavier bullets out of pistols. (Evidence being the 700 gr 500S&W projectile.)
Great video. I just loaded some 45 Colt with 250 grain pill and little more then 35 grains. I could see that the bullet would compress the charge. Seeing that you can put a 300 grain pill with same charge concerns me if I should of put more boom dust.
I really love black powder. Unfortunately, in my country you need a special "explosives" licence to legally own the stuff (smokeless propellants can be owned if you have a licenced centre fire firearm) The solution (since 10 years old😁😁) is to make my own. That smell will ALLWAYS put a smile on my face!
Seems like a great load to shoot from your converted dragoon revolver. Both for accuracy and power. Thank you for recommending this video. I doubt this load would work in my Howell drop in .45 colt cylinder in my Uberti 1858 new model army revolver though. My 200 grain HSM factory cowboy loads fit just right with the tips of the bullets almost flush with the mouths of the chambers without much room to spare
Great video! I've got the same carbine and Bisley except with the 7-1/2" barrel. Same book also! I've wondered about Black Powder but not enough to get the components. Too messy I guess. I kind of gave up on lead bullets all together sticking with Hornady's 250g JHP and #9 powder.
The great part about old balloonhead .45 Colt brass being weak is that it prompted Keith to play with the .44 Special, eventually creating the .44 Magnum
I can tell you exactly how to swell the Remington replica 44. Mine was supposed to be fired with 17.5 grains of blackpowder. If I remember right I could get 33 grains with just a dryball packed on top. About 31.5 grains If I used a patch. Not only did it become a fire and smoke bellowing demon it's accuracy went way up. Even tho I swoll up and replaced 6 cylinders I never blew any up. Guess my cylinders just weren't big enough. Anyone else shooting that particular BP antique might be having the same problem as I do with primer caps staying on the nipple. I figured out clear tape for wrapping paper works great if you keep gun oil off the cylinders and nipples.
That is a spicy meatball! Those BP loads sound like a .44 mag. Need to have someone run a 460 S&W reamer in that Walker conversion cylinder and do BP 460 loads.. Could probably fit 55gr in there easy.
Agree with you on Starline brass.... first class quality at a very reasonable price... I wish they made rifle brass... 🙂 Smokeless loads in 45 Colt are limited in power because smokeless needs much higher peak pressures for the same MV, so max permitted pressure is the limitation imposed by those old guns. That's why we have the 454 Casull, which is essentially a high pressure 45 Colt, and like the 357 and 44 mags has the extra length as much to prevent chambering in older guns than any real need for the powder space. I have loaded 45 Colt rounds to quite high pressures with smokeless for use in a '92 Winchester (modern repro) and the ballistics you can get with reasonable pressures are surprising....a deadly and accurate round, and with gas checked 250gr bullets very effective.... I clearly marked mine so that I didn't put one in my pistol by accident.... such a mistake would have been...................... unfortunate...
That’s the biggest danger in my opinion. I’ve had a few folks say “if you’re going to load 45 colt that hot then why not just use a 454 casull?” The answer is simple. I don’t own a 454 casull and I don’t really see the need to.
Oh buddy, great video. Elmer was “The Man”. I hope Ruger gets around to making that particular Marlin rifle again. I put off buying it and when I went to get one , they were scarce as hen’s teeth. With modern brass, that’s a sweet dependable rig. I just may start spamming requests to Ruger requesting that model to go back into production in .45 long Colt, .44 magnum /.44 special and .357 magnum / .38 special. Starting with .45 long Colt. If Ruger makes them, they’ll probably be strong enough to handle a half stick of dynamite without blowing up. Good one Jake. I have to send this one to my brother in Montana.👍
I swear, your Marlin '94 is a dead ringer for mine. The old Cowboy Limited with a Skinner rear sight and a big fat post front (mine is an XS Sight Systems with the vertical white stripe). I have played with 300 grain bullets in mine over the years and simply cannot get it to shoot them well. I cast the LBT "LFN" (long flat nose) from wheel weights or 20:1 lead/tin, lubed with SPG. They keyhole with either black powder or a healthy load of W-W 296. I think the 1:38" twist, at least in my example, is the culprit. It shoots the RCBS .45-255 SWC or .45-270 SAA with aplomb, so there is nothing really wrong with the rifle outside of its slow twist (maybe Ruger will fix that, as Miroku has done with current production Winchester 1892's which now have 1:22" twists). Have you had a chance to put yours on paper? Hopefully you got lucky and yours stabilizes these 300 grain bullets. Mine is right on the ragged edge... oh so close...
Interesting, insightful test, way to go! Yes indeed, the book Six Guns, is an awesome reference primer. The late insightful Firearms Cartridge pioneer, Elmer Keith, was an inspiration to many including myself with my development of RFN Universal Bullets for cap&ball percussion revolvers. It's interesting that in the 1850's Colonel Samuel Colt teamed up with General Hazzard from Hazzard Powder company to come up with the most powerful gun powder for cap&ball percussion revolvers. This ultra powerful gun powder was known as " Fine Sporting Revolver Pistol Powder". The Fine Sporting Revolver & Pistol gunpowder was used in Colt's/ Hazzard's invention of Combustible Paper Cartridges for cap&ball percussion revolvers. What is interesting is that from what we know of this history in the decades that followed when metallic Cartridges became the main stay , those were Not loaded with the ultra powered Colt's and Hazzard's Fine Revolver Pistol Sporting powder. As it was said the power factors generated from the Fine Revolver& Pistol powder would compromise the brass casings so (2) FFG granulation gunpowder was generally used. In today's modern world Hodgdon's Triple Seven 3F powder is said to mimic the power levels of the original Colt- Hazzard invention of Fine Revolver and Pistol Sporting gunpowder. With the quality production of Starline Brass, I wonder if you might consider loading up some Starline Brass with 30/35/40+grains of Triple Seven 3F powder and test such?
Just an additional bit of information on Elmer's brass failure. Not only were these balloon head cases mercuric primers which attack the brass and weaken its structure. This is why many military labels instructed one to clean the cases in water. I have seen the effects of such old primers for myself, and the deterioration is significant even if the cases are cleaned a few firings will result in unsafe brass.
I clean all my bp cases in water after firing and brush them out too before putting them in a tumbler for cleaning. Combustion of BP produces acids (Sulphuric and Hydorchloric) which will also corrode everything if not promptly cleaned. This is why civilian guns from that era were often both nickel plated (for extra protection) and the insides often used axle grease to keep the corrosion off of the inernal parts.
I'm a big fan of black powder 45 colt loads. I think I'm gonna try that 300 grain load in my pistolero. I dont think I'm gonna try running them threw my opentops tho. Good video thank you
That's about the speed that I load my 45/70 with a 317 gn bullet. Plenty of killing power. One of the advantages of black powder is that it burns very quickly. I think that is why there is little difference between the revolvers. The gain in the lever is probably more from the fact that there is no gap barrel to cylinder.
The one thing I love about black powder is that you can’t overload the cartridge in MODERN firearms and can get reasonable power and performance. The thing I hate is that it’s damned difficult to replicate blackpowder performance in smokeless while keeping in the safe pressure range for modern replicas.
Well Elmer was a developer but what is rarely mentioned is the group of buddies he corresponded who also were developing. Not trying to take the light off Elmer but it doesn't all belong on him. Lots of ideas were also fed to him by others. I know this is sacrilege but its true sacrilege. Thanks Jake.
Thats a nice test I am surprised at how much difference the rifle makes. When ever I do testing like that I always make sure we have a box of doughnuts on hand (thats important).
I did not note any primers being mentioned. I have a 40-82 1886 and black powder loads there recommended a Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primer for maximum consistency etc.
I think case separation back then could be due to corrosion due to the way cases were cleaned, now we have wet tumbling which gets every trace of corrosive contamination off a case there is little chance of that being a cause, also they probably used corrosive primers, and with the folded head cases everything was against long case life, I have fired Starline cases, many times without incident and have every confidence in them, stay safe! Chris B.
@@Everythingblackpowder I opened pandora's box and I must say it's the only thing my flintlock likes. Have made 3 batches using different charcoals and am going to post my next range day with white pine and cascade willow charcoal. Thank you for all you do for us in BP world. 👍
Two items: 1) the case separation shown did not look to be related to the head. I have had case separations with heavy loads and generous chamber dimensions where the separations occurred right in front of the web. 2) I have had thoughts of having a custom end mill made to remove case web material and make new “balloon head” brass for black powder. The old balloon head case allowed forty grain charges without excess compression
I recently did a test with a 200gr RNFP and 40 grains of swiss in a 45 colt cartridge out of an 1858 remington with the howells conversion. Went well. No issues. Nice accuracy. 2F. Video on my page. I will chrono it sometime.
I'm thinking BP might be the solution for handloading the Rossi circuit judge. Those oversized chambers & huge forcing cone & ultra thin chamber walls play havoc with complete combustion, pressure & SD & accuracy. Thinking a fiber wad or some type of thick wad might help seal the chamber & plug that cylinder gap / forcing cone & give more time to burn that powder.
Hey man I was reading through some newspapers archives, and read a large article about revolvers. It was from the 1890s. At one point the author mentioned a customized type of ammunition that I think would make for a great video. The author says take a 45 colt cartridge and you get a knife or saw and you cut the lead in a cross shape down to the brass. He said that it was a devastating type of ammo but had little accuracy at range. I can send the article if your interested.
This was fun to watch - it's been a while since I shot BP Pistols and forgot how much fun they can be. Many Thanks and Best Wishes from Ontario Canada.
Enjoyed this immensely . I have a 300 gr smoklless powder cartridges but never had a ruger to shoot them . Just sitting around I'd like to pull the loads salvage the bullet and cartridge and then use 2f 35gr goex. Shoot them out of a regular ruger ( non vaquero pr Blackhawk). This is original brass not reloaded. Ever pulled loads and tried this?
Do you ever use SPG lube? It looks like your home made lube, which I have used at times. I use SPG in my Lyman lubrisizer for all my cast bullets. Works slick, so to speak.
@@Everythingblackpowder yessir I'm milling powder 4 my aerial shells 4 new years eve.ive been thinking deeply into muzzleloading since I know how 2 brew the powder 4 it.🇺🇸👍👌😎🍻✨
Great video. Did you do any accuracy on paper testing with these rounds? I always struggled to get any kind of accuracy out of a lever action with 45 Colt. And I've tried everything I can think of. Keep 'em coming!
If you did the same test but used a 225 grain cast Bullet, what you think the velocity would be out of your marlin 94, that’s what I been shooting but was wondering what the velocity is I don’t have a crony graph, thanks great video
I am a fan of Kieth style bullets, and cast some. However, I have never shot any live animals with them. Still a fan. Today, I am hopefully gonna try my homemade BP in a, well, a BP gun.
You should load up some 7.62x54R in black powder... mosin nagant rifles, particularly the 1891 were proof marked for both black powder and smokeless... lol
Blowing up Single Action Army revolvers in .45 Colt is what ultimately led Elmer Keith to experimenting with the .44 Special and the eventual development of .44 Magnum.
Losing his trigger finger when a Colt SAA cylinder finally gave way probably added impetus to the choice. There is a Colt SAA in the NRA museum with a burst cylinder recovered from the scene of a battle between an army patrol and some Indians, so apparently the strength of the steels used by Colt (coupled with their placement of the cylinder notch) has been an issue since the beginning of the design. Colt didn't start using High Carbon steel until about the 1900s due to smokeless powder creating the need for that steel. I believe 1902 is when they first started proof testing with smokeless powder and placing the VP proof stamp on their SAAs (but not on their 1902 double actions which are made of low carbon steel from left over 1878 stock).
Since we have youngsters. 45 colt had a thinner wall and it blew. 44 special held
The ĺoads. I use e Blackhawk.
The cylinder walls on 45 colt are naturally thinner than the same size cylinder bored to .429 ,especially near the bolt stop.
For the thicker walls, not because the 44 was the better cartridge.
@@marktwain2053 Thicker chamber walls and better brass (.45 Colt brass at the time was all balloon head cases, not good for high pressure loads).
From that rifle you are getting modern 44mag ballistics. Achieving that with only 35 grains of bp is highly impressive.
Keith profile SWC and the .41 mag. The little know greats from Keith. Great to hear your little girl call for Daddy. Huge respect to you sir!
I always wanted to know what BP loads were good for .41 mag!
Gotta love Elmer: “The top strap and cylinder departed the gun, finishing up in the bronc corral.”
Looks like a somewhat compressed load at 35 gr / 3f. Some who aren’t familiar with 45 Colt history may still wonder at old expressions involving “40 grains of powder,” but the .45 Colt case back in the day was a different animal than the solid head cases of the present, and would hold more powder.
The new 45 Colt cases hold 40grs just fine. Well, except the Hornadys…
Once again my 'rule of thumb' that you gain about 300 fps from handgun to carbine holds true. 👍 This alos shows for those naysayers that 45 colt ain't no joke. Never has been so don't tell me your wonder 9 is more powerful that 'that old wild west' load.
I agree 100%
Yes sir! I would rather throw bricks than pins.
I think where both sides of the isle go wrong is the penetration over expansion. A 9mm hollow point can expand well and do a lot of damage while getting decent penetration from modern bullets and powders. 45 colt EXCELS at penetration which is definitely a needed factor in taking down large game.
The original 1870s 45LC black powder load was a 250 grain lead bullet moving at 1,025 fps & around 550 ft/lbs. Now that was a real thumper.
@@PerceptionVsReality333 he has a video already out showing the 40 grain 250 bullet. It’s worth a watch
Nice to hear the little cameo from your daughter. Families are the most important thing we have. Great video, those certainly have some thump to them. Elmer Keith was a genius.
Thank you
I think he was a velocity junkie.
I use Starline brass for my Ruger only loads in 45 Colt. I'm pushing a 325 grain cast slug over a load of 300-MP out of a 5.5" Blackhawk at 1,180fps and I have not had a single issue with the brass. I have also cut down 454 Casull brass and used them for this load as well but that brass uses a small rifle primer. Never had an issue with Starline brass and I have gotten a lot of re-use out of the brass before I have to replace it, even using it for Ruger only loads. Starline brass is simply the best brass I have ever tried for 45 Colt.
Bitchin
Elmer designed the best revolver bullet molds as well!
I would have been a happy cowboy riding with that load for my revolver and carbine. Thanks for all your experiments.
Great video. BP is dirtier and smoky but it's been sending projectiles from brass and iron for a Long Time.
The old 45 colts varied in chamber and barrel diameters a lot more when that book was written. It could along with all the things you said, have caused case separations.
Very possible
Very interesting all the loading of black powder in cartridges now days. I had read the Keith books Sixguns and Hell I Was There, lot's of good information in both. Good job with the testing on that load!
Thank you
When I was a kid all the gun writers wrote about Elmer keith like he hung the moon im glad to see his stuff held up under testing not all heros have ...good video.
Thank you
Back in the '70's I was shooting a 7 1/2" Ruger in .45 Colt. After reading some of Elmer Keith's works I determined to compress load my SOLID HEAD Winchester Cases with FFFg black powder and cast (original profile) 255 grain lead bullets. Took them to the police range and ran through the PPC course, firing 60 rounds, 7 yards back to 50 yards.
Having been use to running the course of fire with .38 Spl. 148 grain wadcutters, that turned out to be a work out. To top it off, I could not touch the revolvers barrel after the first 30 rounds. Needless to say, that was the last time I shot that course of fire with that revolver and that load.
Really enjoyed watching your testing the old Keith load.
Thank you
Got my copy in 77 in a surplus place out side of Fayetteville NC while in 82nd . My best friend from h. s. Has been in r&d ect in the ammo industry for over 30 yrs . We ve shot bp together since 75 and have covered A LOT of topics . Recently while doing a batch of combustible cartridges for our colts we looked up loads from the civil war .I was shocked at how low some of the contractors loaded , 16 guns in some 44s ! But , in 1860s with a body hit the oil light is going to come on and you will probably die hard . Not very fast for sure , but fast enough .good channel ! Mark Baker. or around the rondy fire " sir happy pants" and the Kibler is beautiful .
@chris baker Hazard Powder Company made "Cartridge Powder" for makers of revolver combustibles; this was an extremely fine-grained 5Fg powder. I've made combustibles for my Uberti Remington Army using Swiss Null B (very fine grained 5Fg). 22 grains under a 220 grain conical moves at 940+ fps. Hits very hard and is very accurate all the way to 100 yards. The lowest charge I've seen listed on an original packet of .44 Army combustibles was 18 grains on a D.C. Sage packet. In my tests, 18 grains of Swiss Null B moves the 220 grain conical at 850+ fps from the 8" barrel Uberti Remington replica. Not exactly a weak load! BTW, Hazard's "Cartridge Powder" was made at the request of Samuel Colt in 1855, as Colt began manufacture of revolver cartridges. Colt's tin foil cartridges 1855-57 were poor and never became popular. But the switch to paper powder envelopes in 1858 made Colt's combustibles very popular, and opened the door for D.C. Sage, Johnston & Dow, H.W. Mason and many others to start manufacture of revolver combustible cartridges. H.W. Mason was the last manufacturer of combustible revolver cartridges, remaining in business until 1888! Gives you an idea of how popular the C&B revolvers remained, well into the cartridge era!
I agree with you on the Starline brass. I reserve it for my heavy 45 Colt loads, including the 365-gr jacketed bullet I designed.
Sometimes I also cut down 454 Casull brass for the heavies.
Wow 365gr?
@@Everythingblackpowder Yes, it's a jacketed rebated FN that I swage. I designed it years ago and Corbin built the dies. I was hoping to use it with sabots for muzzleloaders but could never find a sabot that would work with it. At the time I didn't have the money to have sabots custom injection-molded so decided to try in my handguns. Out of my Ruger Bisley Vaquero with the pinch sights, I can hit a pop can 5 out of 6 times at 100 yds.
What powder are you running in that load?
@@Everythingblackpowder It's been quite a while since I've reloaded them, but would have been H110 or W296. They are the only powders I use for the big heavy handgun loads. And as you know are identical.
Yep. H110 is what I use for my hot 45 Colt loads.
To add on too my other comment I would love to see this load tested with the original 2f beside these 3f hotrods and then 40 grains of 4F because why not lol would make for a fun video, your videos have really opened my eyes to the capability of black powder in certain cartridges.
Would love to see those hot ass 38 special bp loads you cooked up through a carbine
I love this channel. Everything about it. All the way from Australia.
thank you
Just about the best, most informative and most useful video I have watched in a long, long time! Thanks a lot for this loading data and performance test! I will definitely replicate a similar load and try it in my 4 3/4" Colt SAA and my '73 Winchester w/ 26" barrel. Can't wait to try it out on the range and maybe for hunting, as well.
Good video, liked the info. For as I'm concerned Elmer Keith was somewhat a head of his time. Thanks Mr. Keith.I liked the end of your video.
Thank You
All your videos are informative, enjoyable and just fun. This was very good, I have read of Elmer Keith’s exploits with Colt SSA. I have not pushed that far I see that in a modern SSA it may be safe. Good job.
Great show thanks.i too have the old tim books from around the turn of century.lot of black powder loads .and histery of powders.like thank its appreciated.
I experimented with this load a little over 30 years ago using 300 grain hard cast rnfp bullets and even upped the ante by going all the way to ffffg. I didn't have a chronograph back then though, but penetration was devastating and recoil felt like a magnum although I'm sure there wasn't really much difference in 2 through 4 fg. People would claim I was going to blow up my guns etc., but back in the 70's Lyman pretty much proved it to be hogwash about the pressures relating to 4fg...not that it doesn't increase as it does, but it's not like what many lead others to believe.
I loaded up some 250gr RNFP's with 4FG Goex and was getting 950 fps from a 7.5" barrel.
That is a pretty good amount of compression with a 35gr charge with a 300 grain bullet. It is a good thing those bullets are hard cast! I use a 20:1 alloy and have to compress and seat in two separate steps. Otherwise, I would have a smashed bullet nose.
You can put a tiny bit of mink oil or unique case lube to resize, highly recommend since Ive leaded up my .309 die sizing .312's. Cant wait to try a 45colt black powder load in my blackhawk.
Neat. Lots of interesting information and a great comment from Arnold. Sure glad Elmer made the effort and took the time to document what he knew and had experience with. Maybe there should be a National Keith Appreciation Day, where we celebrate the man with shooting events, and a moment of silence for all those like him and others. Keep your enthusiasm and the informative videos going. O.R.
It would be interesting to see a direct comparison in your Dragoon with this load in the 45 colt cartridge versus in the black powder cylinder, if possible.
Thanks!
There’s something deeply peaceful about leaving early before the wife and kids are up to go kick up some dust. Maybe grabbing a bite on the way home. I rarely skip a month and it makes life a bit more fun. I load an 1860 cap and ball with a 220 grain conical over 40 grains by volume and that thing hits like .357 magnum with 510 fpe. I use it for big critter defense out in the boonies and carry the .36 for self defense since it carries much nicer.
ive been looking at the walker loaded with two 148 round balls with 35-40 grains of powder. for blackpowder deer hunting season. still not sure if they would fully penetrate tho. its one of those if you only get one shot and you don't want it running really deep into the woods.
The marlin 94 numbers are definitely impressive. With a 250gr bullet and 16grs of 2400 out of my 20" 94CB best I can achieve is about 1250. I can crank the heat up a lot more of course, but I have no desire to.
Just occurred to me that I have not seen anyone do the Holy Black in .41 mag. It would be interesting to compare to.38-40.
Excellent information and demo thanks!
Happy to help
I love that book. I rarely use my 1st generation Colts (but they are nice to have). His 2400 load with XTP bullets (instead of SWCs) feeds very nicely in my Win 94AE Trapper carbine. Devastating on deer also. I don't shoot lead bullets in the carbine because at anything over 1,100 fps barrel leading is a probablility and the design of the 94 is not super friendly when to comes to removing the lead. Yes, I know I could machine a longer rod for the Lewis lead remover I use with my .45 pistols, but I am happy with the XTPs in the carbine. Based on experience I am not convinced careful measurement of weight is truly needed in regards to 3F powder and solid head .45 Colt brass. BP requires a slight compression and due to the solid head construction of the brass I use putting 40 gr. of 3F in the case is a physical impossibility. Filling the case to about an 1/8 inch of the mouth usually gives about 35 gr. I am not concerned about + or - 1 grain of 3F. That is just me. I shoot a fair amount BP loads with Keith's 250 gr. lead (hard cast) SWC bullet in my more modern .45 pistols and I have not noticed any issues arising from + or - 1 grain of 3F BP.. I concur fully with Keith's discovery that the SWC's shape gives superior results on both game and paper targets. I did gas check his 240 gr. lead bullet for my .44s, but that is a different topic.
I like the looks of your Ruger. It is interesting how the works of someone like Elmer Keith are still relevant today. Still we are trying how to fire heavier and heavier bullets out of pistols. (Evidence being the 700 gr 500S&W projectile.)
Thank you
Yeah, someone test results actually mirrored mine! I use 45 g in my 1858 with a 8 inch barrel. It’s spectacular and mushrooms milk jugs.👊
Just purchased a Marlin 24-in cowboy rifle. Can't wait to try some of these black powder loads!
Great video. I just loaded some 45 Colt with 250 grain pill and little more then 35 grains. I could see that the bullet would compress the charge. Seeing that you can put a 300 grain pill with same charge concerns me if I should of put more boom dust.
I run 40gr of 3F with a 250gr projectile.
Thanks, I’m gonna throw 40 grains.
I really love black powder.
Unfortunately, in my country you need a special "explosives" licence to legally own the stuff (smokeless propellants can be owned if you have a licenced centre fire firearm)
The solution (since 10 years old😁😁) is to make my own. That smell will ALLWAYS put a smile on my face!
Interesting load for the 45 Colt! Thanks for sharing!
Sure thing
Seems like a great load to shoot from your converted dragoon revolver. Both for accuracy and power. Thank you for recommending this video. I doubt this load would work in my Howell drop in .45 colt cylinder in my Uberti 1858 new model army revolver though. My 200 grain HSM factory cowboy loads fit just right with the tips of the bullets almost flush with the mouths of the chambers without much room to spare
Great vid!👍👍 changing and mix matching components that work is great stuff!! Makes the hobby extra fun!! What Keith was about!
Thank you
I would love to see some for the hell of it loads with 4F
Great video! I've got the same carbine and Bisley except with the 7-1/2" barrel. Same book also!
I've wondered about Black Powder but not enough to get the components. Too messy I guess. I kind of gave up on lead bullets all together sticking with Hornady's 250g JHP and #9 powder.
Your goll darn video scared me so much i wet myself again. Now my girlfriend is making me wear pampers when I watch your videos. Thanks a bunch
Try some fertilizer and a seed.
Grow a pear 🍐.
I use 35 gr. of 2f in my 44 magnum 240gr lead bullet loads. Great round.
The great part about old balloonhead .45 Colt brass being weak is that it prompted Keith to play with the .44 Special, eventually creating the .44 Magnum
I can tell you exactly how to swell the Remington replica 44. Mine was supposed to be fired with 17.5 grains of blackpowder. If I remember right I could get 33 grains with just a dryball packed on top. About 31.5 grains If I used a patch. Not only did it become a fire and smoke bellowing demon it's accuracy went way up. Even tho I swoll up and replaced 6 cylinders I never blew any up. Guess my cylinders just weren't big enough. Anyone else shooting that particular BP antique might be having the same problem as I do with primer caps staying on the nipple. I figured out clear tape for wrapping paper works great if you keep gun oil off the cylinders and nipples.
That is a spicy meatball! Those BP loads sound like a .44 mag. Need to have someone run a 460 S&W reamer in that Walker conversion cylinder and do BP 460 loads.. Could probably fit 55gr in there easy.
I’ve heard about that
Thoroughly enjoyed that, good information, based on real observation, moved at pace. Thank yo 👍
With no cylinder gap and that nice breeze, it was like a smokeless cartridge in the rifle.
@Robert Sears well if you're gonna be pedantic no it wasn't. You must be fun at parties.
Agree with you on Starline brass.... first class quality at a very reasonable price... I wish they made rifle brass... 🙂
Smokeless loads in 45 Colt are limited in power because smokeless needs much higher peak pressures for the same MV, so max permitted pressure is the limitation imposed by those old guns. That's why we have the 454 Casull, which is essentially a high pressure 45 Colt, and like the 357 and 44 mags has the extra length as much to prevent chambering in older guns than any real need for the powder space.
I have loaded 45 Colt rounds to quite high pressures with smokeless for use in a '92 Winchester (modern repro) and the ballistics you can get with reasonable pressures are surprising....a deadly and accurate round, and with gas checked 250gr bullets very effective.... I clearly marked mine so that I didn't put one in my pistol by accident.... such a mistake would have been...................... unfortunate...
That’s the biggest danger in my opinion. I’ve had a few folks say
“if you’re going to load 45 colt that hot then why not just use a 454 casull?”
The answer is simple. I don’t own a 454 casull and I don’t really see the need to.
Oh buddy, great video. Elmer was “The Man”.
I hope Ruger gets around to making that particular Marlin rifle again. I put off buying it and when I went to get one , they were scarce as hen’s teeth. With modern brass, that’s a sweet dependable rig.
I just may start spamming requests to Ruger requesting that model to go back into production in .45 long Colt, .44 magnum /.44 special and .357 magnum / .38 special. Starting with .45 long Colt. If Ruger makes them, they’ll probably be strong enough to handle a half stick of dynamite without blowing up.
Good one Jake. I have to send this one to my brother in Montana.👍
* .45 Colt
I swear, your Marlin '94 is a dead ringer for mine. The old Cowboy Limited with a Skinner rear sight and a big fat post front (mine is an XS Sight Systems with the vertical white stripe). I have played with 300 grain bullets in mine over the years and simply cannot get it to shoot them well. I cast the LBT "LFN" (long flat nose) from wheel weights or 20:1 lead/tin, lubed with SPG. They keyhole with either black powder or a healthy load of W-W 296. I think the 1:38" twist, at least in my example, is the culprit. It shoots the RCBS .45-255 SWC or .45-270 SAA with aplomb, so there is nothing really wrong with the rifle outside of its slow twist (maybe Ruger will fix that, as Miroku has done with current production Winchester 1892's which now have 1:22" twists). Have you had a chance to put yours on paper? Hopefully you got lucky and yours stabilizes these 300 grain bullets. Mine is right on the ragged edge... oh so close...
Excellent as always!!
Thank you
Interesting, insightful test, way to go!
Yes indeed, the book Six Guns, is an awesome reference primer. The late insightful Firearms Cartridge pioneer, Elmer Keith, was an inspiration to many including myself with my development of RFN Universal Bullets for cap&ball percussion revolvers.
It's interesting that in the 1850's Colonel Samuel Colt teamed up with General Hazzard from Hazzard Powder company to come up with the most powerful gun powder for cap&ball percussion revolvers. This ultra powerful gun powder was known as " Fine Sporting Revolver Pistol Powder".
The Fine Sporting Revolver & Pistol gunpowder was used in Colt's/ Hazzard's invention of Combustible Paper Cartridges for cap&ball percussion revolvers.
What is interesting is that from what we know of this history in the decades that followed when metallic Cartridges became the main stay , those were Not loaded with the ultra powered Colt's and Hazzard's Fine Revolver Pistol Sporting powder.
As it was said the power factors generated from the Fine Revolver& Pistol powder would compromise the brass casings so (2) FFG granulation gunpowder was generally used.
In today's modern world Hodgdon's Triple Seven 3F powder is said to mimic the power levels of the original Colt- Hazzard invention of Fine Revolver and Pistol Sporting gunpowder.
With the quality production of Starline Brass, I wonder if you might consider loading up some Starline Brass with 30/35/40+grains of Triple Seven 3F powder and test such?
Howdy Mr Ojamaa. I’ve seen videos on your bullets but I’ve never tried them myself but I have heard good things. Thanks you for the comment.
My 1980s Winchester with drop tube went 1280 with Sierra 260 hps . At 100 yards I got 2 inch groups . Took many Texas shooting bets
Great video. I really enjoyed it.
Just an additional bit of information on Elmer's brass failure. Not only were these balloon head cases mercuric primers which attack the brass and weaken its structure. This is why many military labels instructed one to clean the cases in water. I have seen the effects of such old primers for myself, and the deterioration is significant even if the cases are cleaned a few firings will result in unsafe brass.
I clean all my bp cases in water after firing and brush them out too before putting them in a tumbler for cleaning. Combustion of BP produces acids (Sulphuric and Hydorchloric) which will also corrode everything if not promptly cleaned. This is why civilian guns from that era were often both nickel plated (for extra protection) and the insides often used axle grease to keep the corrosion off of the inernal parts.
I'm a big fan of black powder 45 colt loads. I think I'm gonna try that 300 grain load in my pistolero. I dont think I'm gonna try running them threw my opentops tho. Good video thank you
Great work mate -thanks for your dedication! cheers
Thank you
Thanks Awesome!!
You bet
Just wanted to say, man I really love your channel.
Thank you
That's about the speed that I load my 45/70 with a 317 gn bullet. Plenty of killing power. One of the advantages of black powder is that it burns very quickly. I think that is why there is little difference between the revolvers. The gain in the lever is probably more from the fact that there is no gap barrel to cylinder.
Tests show a 10% reduction with a .010 cylinder gap. So barrel is contributing more than the loss in gap.
The one thing I love about black powder is that you can’t overload the cartridge in MODERN firearms and can get reasonable power and performance. The thing I hate is that it’s damned difficult to replicate blackpowder performance in smokeless while keeping in the safe pressure range for modern replicas.
I know exactly how you feel.
Well Elmer was a developer but what is rarely mentioned is the group of buddies he corresponded who also were developing. Not trying to take the light off Elmer but it doesn't all belong on him. Lots of ideas were also fed to him by others. I know this is sacrilege but its true sacrilege. Thanks Jake.
Appreciate honest accurate research.
Love the intro dude, thanks for sharing this with us.
You bet
Thats a nice test I am surprised at how much difference the rifle makes. When ever I do testing like that I always make sure we have a box of doughnuts on hand (thats important).
Wow that was pretty cool really like watching your videos 👍🏻🤘🏻
Thank you
@@Everythingblackpowder you are welcome keep making great videos 👍🏻🤘🏻
Will do
Your marlin was 400 fps faster you said 300. Very impressed with the rifle results especially.
🤷♂️
I did not note any primers being mentioned. I have a 40-82 1886 and black powder loads there recommended a Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primer for maximum consistency etc.
If that works for you. These are standard primers and they work swell
@@Everythingblackpowder which brand of primers?
Winchester
@@Everythingblackpowder Thank you, Sir!
I think case separation back then could be due to corrosion due to the way cases were cleaned, now we have wet tumbling which gets every trace of corrosive contamination off a case there is little chance of that being a cause, also they probably used corrosive primers, and with the folded head cases everything was against long case life, I have fired Starline cases, many times without incident and have every confidence in them, stay safe! Chris B.
Same here
Very impressive results. Thanks for sharing Jake.
Happy to help
@@Everythingblackpowder I opened pandora's box and I must say it's the only thing my flintlock likes. Have made 3 batches using different charcoals and am going to post my next range day with white pine and cascade willow charcoal. Thank you for all you do for us in BP world. 👍
Excellent
I loaded 45LC for my 1875 Remington using 38 gr of South African G40 (ff) toped with a 250gr conical.
I got around 1150/1200 fps
Great channel, I wish I had a place to shoot like you do.
Thank you. I’m very fortunate
Would love to see some similar work in .44 mag if you get the chance.
Great demo/test with the data, well done!
Thank you
You used FFFg Powder but Keith used FFg I'm still curious about how the results would compare if you did the same test with FFg .
Gun enthusiast or not, everyone should read Elmer Keith's "Hell, I Was There!"
Two items:
1) the case separation shown did not look to be related to the head. I have had case separations with heavy loads and generous chamber dimensions where the separations occurred right in front of the web.
2) I have had thoughts of having a custom end mill made to remove case web material and make new “balloon head” brass for black powder. The old balloon head case allowed forty grain charges without excess compression
I recently did a test with a 200gr RNFP and 40 grains of swiss in a 45 colt cartridge out of an 1858 remington with the howells conversion. Went well. No issues. Nice accuracy. 2F. Video on my page. I will chrono it sometime.
I'm thinking BP might be the solution for handloading the Rossi circuit judge. Those oversized chambers & huge forcing cone & ultra thin chamber walls play havoc with complete combustion, pressure & SD & accuracy. Thinking a fiber wad or some type of thick wad might help seal the chamber & plug that cylinder gap / forcing cone & give more time to burn that powder.
Give it a try
I really like all the vids youve heen putting out. Keep it up!
Thank you
Hey man I was reading through some newspapers archives, and read a large article about revolvers. It was from the 1890s. At one point the author mentioned a customized type of ammunition that I think would make for a great video. The author says take a 45 colt cartridge and you get a knife or saw and you cut the lead in a cross shape down to the brass. He said that it was a devastating type of ammo but had little accuracy at range. I can send the article if your interested.
Sure
@@Everythingblackpowder whats your email I dont think I can send links reliably over comments
@@Everythingblackpowder where can I send it?
@landonsimpson7839 Everythingblackpowder@gmailcom
@@Everythingblackpowder it should be sent now
Love your stuff JAKE
Thank you
This was fun to watch - it's been a while since I shot BP Pistols and forgot how much fun they can be. Many Thanks and Best Wishes from Ontario Canada.
Thank you
Excellent useful information 👍
Thank you
Enjoyed this immensely .
I have a 300 gr smoklless powder cartridges but never had a ruger to shoot them . Just sitting around
I'd like to pull the loads salvage the bullet and cartridge and then use 2f 35gr goex.
Shoot them out of a regular ruger ( non vaquero pr Blackhawk).
This is original brass not reloaded.
Ever pulled loads and tried this?
I just posted a video on 300gr smokeless loads. I wouldn’t be afraid to pull them and load them with something that’s “safe” to shoot.
Do you ever use SPG lube? It looks like your home made lube, which I have used at times. I use SPG in my Lyman lubrisizer for all my cast bullets. Works slick, so to speak.
I’ve been using SPG lately. I can’t say it works any better or worse than my homemade stuff but it’s available and lambs tallow isn’t.
Gonna have to load me some of those.
Great video, Man!
Hawk.
Thank you man.
Really love the intro guys.keep up the good work 🍻✨👍
Thank you
@@Everythingblackpowder yessir I'm milling powder 4 my aerial shells 4 new years eve.ive been thinking deeply into muzzleloading since I know how 2 brew the powder 4 it.🇺🇸👍👌😎🍻✨
@@Everythingblackpowder 💕👍
Great video.
Did you do any accuracy on paper testing with these rounds?
I always struggled to get any kind of accuracy out of a lever action with 45 Colt. And I've tried everything I can think of.
Keep 'em coming!
If you did the same test but used a 225 grain cast Bullet, what you think the velocity would be out of your marlin 94, that’s what I been shooting but was wondering what the velocity is I don’t have a crony graph, thanks great video
I think a 225gr, 40gr 3f load would be in the 1100s out of the Marlin
Sir, check out Moose Moulds. They have a bullet that they call the Hollow base Trashcan that I think you will love for your Snider.
I’ll do that
I am a fan of Kieth style bullets, and cast some. However, I have never shot any live animals with them. Still a fan. Today, I am hopefully gonna try my homemade BP in a, well, a BP gun.
Wow! With the echo you get, it sounds like a rifled parrott gun.
You should load up some 7.62x54R in black powder... mosin nagant rifles, particularly the 1891 were proof marked for both black powder and smokeless... lol
move 2 feet closer to the chrono and you want have to lean in to read it, good show!