Elmer Keith: Jack O’connor’s Nemesis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2022
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years, I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, become an integral part of our ecosystem, and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see and survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish, or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
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I had as an associate, a fascinating, eccentric fellow from Idaho, who told me an interesting quote he attributed to Elmer Keith. Elmer was supposed to have had a custom rifle made. An admiring friend was supposed to had said" Isn't that rifle too pretty to shoot?" Elmer was reported to have said, " Ever seen a girl too pretty to Kiss?" I don't know if this is true, but I like it and thought I would share this.
That's my philosophy, too!
One was a very educated college level English Professor, and the other was a simi literate cowboy. Both were legends in their own time.
“In there own time” it was the same time lol
I think Keith was a little more colorful.
What is " Simi " literate ?
Simi literate. The irony is palpable.
Why do we keep with the “Napoleon syndrome” comparison? The dude was TALL for his era!
The dichotomy between Jack and Elmer is really telling in how they viewed guns and hunting in general. Jack being an academic preferred a lighter gun/caliber because he viewed it as sport. Elmer viewed it as life and death. Being a professor they usually work in the theoretical. One works when everything is perfect, the other just works.
I have a letter, on American Rifleman letterhead, Elmer sent to a friend of mine on 10-26-53 regarding load data for the .35 Remington. My friend had written in to "Dope Bag" for advice on loads for the 200 and 220 grain bullets, and Elmer responded personally with his suggestions on charges of 3031. The letter has spelling and typing errors as referenced in the video. It is simply signed "Keith" in pencil.
👆🏻 SCAM
My dad met Elmer in the Fifties when a guide they had hired dropped dead just before the hunt they went to Salmon to look for Elmer. He was easy to find and once they met, they found out were both master Masons and walked the same path in life. Later in January Guns magazine put Elmer up in a dry hotel. He called us up just after my parents had been in a bad wreck. A friend went to pick up Elmer for us. He ended up in my bed. The last antelope hunt he went on I was hunting with him as his eyesight was failing. My parents later went on the last up-country hunt with him.
Yep he was also my brother too, since I am also a Mason. The language that Jack used just flowed, while Elmer we it was just like sitting by a pot-belly stove listening to an old man telling the youngsters how it really was.
I bet your great great uncle was John Moses uncle!!!
As a fellow Brother I am very excited to know Mr. Keith was a Brother!!!
That's awesome! My dad also met Elmer, in the 50's at a gun show. So the story goes, my old man told Elmer that he was in the process of building a 45-70 double rifle. Supposedly Elmer's attention migrated to a conversation with my dad and now I have a signed copy of "Hell, I was there!".
I bet this would be a good story if it was understandable.
Elmer was the man behind the model 29, and Jack did alot of good for winchester. Both men were good for the sport.
And my favorite the .41 mag.
Legends
44mag, still king ta me
Elmer claimed to have spent four years helping design the Model 70 Winchester. I take his word for it even if they only major changes between the Model 70 and the Model 54 were the bolt throw angle, safety, trigger and the stock design. Elmer liked his Model 70s in .375 H&H or .458 Winchester Magnum, or .338 Win Mag for rabbits and such while Jack preferred the .270.
@blackpowder4016 Elmer made a lot of tall tales. He didn't design or help on the 70.
Elmer in his book RIFLES FOR LARGE GAME: “I went over the original draft of [the Model 70] and know that the group of riflemen who designed it did not advocate the present wing safety, which interferes with low scope mounting.” Winchester didn't get around to changing the safety until several years later.
Keith also noted: “The 98 Mauser action is my personal preference in a modern bolt action…. The [Mauser] will handle gas from a punctured or defective primer better than any bolt action I have used…. And more important, there is an integral ring inside of the receiver that greatly strengthens the weakest portion of a bolt action. The barrel diameter covers the entire rimless cartridge case, right up to the extractor cut…. The Winchester Model 70 action is made of the finest steel and is perfect in most details [but] will not handle a possible gas-escape as well as the Mauser.
So if he designed the 70, why not make it with those things he wanted and liked???
I'm in my 70th year and have been reading both Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor since I was about ten years old. Elmer was a great hunter, shooter, influencer of gun and cartridge design and teller of tall tales. I acquired both "Hell, I WAS THERE" and "Six Guns by Keith" along with "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" by Ed McGivern about 25 years ago or so. Your viewers will have "Google" Ed McGivern. I think Elmer was more of a proponent of big, heavy bullets at what I would call slow to moderate rather than high velocities. He said that anything less than a 375 H&H was too small for Elk but he also wrote about using the 35 Whelen with the 275 grain Western Tool and Copper Works bullet at around 2250 fps for Elk and Grizzly. He once said in print "Velocity never killed a damn thing". Roy Weatherby and others have proven him wrong over and over again on that point. I really enjoyed reading Elmer's stories about his African safaris. The funniest thing I ever read by Elmer was about when he left his Model 29 in a gas station rest room and was a long way down the road when he realized what he had done. I met Elmer and got his autograph at the NRA convention in Kansas City in the very early 1980's. I also had a good conversation with Bruce Hodgdon at that convention. A few years ago I acquired a beautiful 338-06 built on a 98 Mauser action by Iver Henricksen who was one Elmer's favourite gunsmiths but I have no history on it. That just makes me wonder.
Jack O'Connor was just as good a hunter and shooter as Elmer Keith. Other than their differences about suitable hunting cartridges and their writing styles, the biggest difference between them was that when Jack O'Connor put something in print it was fact. With his standing as an academic he could not afford to be to found to be anything other than completely honest. If he missed a shot at game or on a rare occasion wounded and lost one he told you about it. Jack did not suffer fools lightly which added to his persona. Two of his best works are "The Rifle Book" and "Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns" which included a seven-lesson rifle shooting course. A lot of people who have never read much of his writing think Jack only hunted with the 270 Winchester which is far from the truth. He hunted with and wrote about a vast array of rifles and cartridges. He did say in the "Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns" that if he could only have one rifle to hunt the world over with it would be the 375 H&H Magnum. He went on to say that if he could have two rifles the second would be a 270 Winchester. I urge all of your viewers to try to find old copies of "Outdoor Life", "The American Rifleman" and "Guns and Ammo" to find out what these two gun nuts were really about. Happy hunting boys and girls! 😄
My love for the outdoors, Jack O'Conner, and Elmer Keith probably affected my standing in college about 1972. While researching the University Library for the dreaded Term paper, the Card Catalog lead me to a section of the old library that had every published copy of Sports Afield, Outdoor Life and Field & Streams from about 1920's. Hwatever the date, I steadily read them all! I got a D on the paper!
I have the copies, and Jack hit it on the nail; "if he could only have one rifle to hunt the world over with it would be the 375 H&H Magnum."
One of my many fond memories from my grandpa who died before I really had a chance to dig into his deep knowledge and memory bank, was of a story he told me about a time he was deer hunting with my grandma and my mom, (mom is now 70 years old, born in ‘52), when she was about two or three years old. My grandpa, a huge Jack O’Connor fan, just got a new 270 from Sears, a Winchester model 70 copy outfitted with a telescopic sight. They lived in New Mexico at the time, near the city known today as Truth or Consequences, but back then it was called Hot Springs. My grandpa parked his car near the crest of a hill just before it breaks into a wide open draw with the opposing side about the same in elevation as where he was. He fired at a mule deer across the draw and missed. He fired again and missed. Fired a third time and missed yet again. This kept going as the deer scattered and my grandpa kept cranking rounds into the dirt. Meanwhile, my mom, who was still learning how to count, told her mother with each shot, “one deer. Two deer. Three deer. Four deer. Five deer. A whole buncha deer!” At that time she’d only learned to count to five and my grandpa fired 16 rounds before he was able to anchor one.
Turns out the telescopic sight that came on the rifle hadn’t been zeroed. Still to this day there’s a sears catalog page torn out sitting in the wooden rifle case with that rifle and the words “sight already adjusted for extreme precision upon delivery” circled in pencil.
Not sure why, but this story came to mind while watching this video. Thank you for the memories.
Great story. That's a reminder why you always zero your rifle scope yourself. Always. 🤘
Great story! Back when you could order freedom from a catalog
@@hoosierdaddy2308 trust, but verify.
Those Sears rifles were top quality. They were made by Winchester and were indeed model 70's with the Sears stamped label. Great story. Thanks for your post.
@@roninkraut6873 totally! Wouldn’t it be nice to have that again?
Never got to meet Mr. Keith but I know the toughness of his generation. My Grandma was born in the 1890’s, my momma’s momma, and my dad was born in 1910.
I’ve seen a man needing dentures sit in a barber chair and have his teeth pulled out with a pair of pliers. Seen folks who had set their own fractures and never missed a day of work.
The times they lived in were truly remarkable. Two world wars, the Great Depression, and going from coal oil lanterns to electricity. Talk about a change.
You can consider me an Elmer Keith fan. My deer rifle is a .338 Win Mag and my anti personnel handgun is the .41 Remington Magnum. That’s another of Mr. Keith’s creations. The ballistics he wanted mimicked what the .40 S&W is today basically. Too bad Remington messed it up and S&W made the gun an N frame instead of the K frame like he wanted.
He truly was a great innovator.
My great grandad is mentioned in that book, Van Stull. They were neighbors at one time, neighbors is a loose term out in that vast country. They had went on a few hunts together. Elmer gave my grandmother an autographed first edition, which my dad has possesion of. It, and several other of Elmer’s books have become family heirlooms.
A genuine American Icon.
His legacy continues to this very day in the world of Gundom.
Liked reading Elmer Keith, Bill Jorden, Skeeter Skelton, Bob Melik and of coarse, the great Jack O'Connor.
Skeeter Skelton, Elmer Kieth, Bill Jordan, Col. Jeff Cooper, these were the heroes of my childhood growing up in the 70s and 80s ( I'm 52 this October) and I feel some pity for the youth of today, for if they can find any heroes to look up to you can rest assured they can't hold a candle to the Legends I had.
Edit" Added Skeeter Skelton as I inexcusable forgot to include him and that was a travesty.
Fred Bear
Don’t forget Skeeter Skelton.
@@GatGans1932 I coulda sworn I'd included him but obviously I was suffering from a brain injury or something. I will edit and put him on the list as it's incompletely as it is now.
I'm 80, and we share the same heroes. I would add Major Frederick Russell Burnham DSO, to the list (Scouting On Two Continents).
@@richardhughes7008 they just don't make men like those guys anymore. Men that became legends by just being men the only way they knew how, with no dreams of being anything beyond that. None of them became heroes, or even famous intentionally, and they didn't have Social Media, constant tweets, or Internet videos to put their every word, thoughts, or lives in everybody's faces. Now people get rich and famous overnight often without ever showing anything in particular they should be famous for. I just don't understand how so many people today have become household names but haven't actually done anything worth knowing about, famous for being famous (Like the Kardashians for example). It's no wonder the country is in the situation it's in, with what passes for celebrities these days it's going to take some really hard times to shake the US hard enough to show their fans how useless modern celebrities really are.
Back in the early 60s I always read Elmer's column first when my Guns and Ammo mag arrived... 🙂
"Hell I was There" is one of the finest books I have ever read.
I recall reading my stepfathers Elmer Keith book with Elmer shooting rock chucks at over 200 yards with a revolver.
Elmer Kieth was a hero of my brother and I and we read everything we could by him. His distance shooting with a 6 gun influenced us the most especially the 400yd running coyote shot as well as the 600yd elk shot and handloaded thousands of rds trying to recreate those shots. He said your luck getting better the more you shoot. True.
Elmer was a good friend of a mate.Nick has told me many of their escapades.When I visit Nick I see photos of Elmer,Bill Jordan,Charlie Askins.
Good video Ron. I'm 67 now and brought my son up reading Elmer and Jack. Two things about Elmer I think a lot of people miss is that first of all he was a meat hunter when meat was the difference between eating or going hungry. Second of all Elmer didn't have the same quality of bullets that we have today. My son once posted a very favorable statement about Jack O'Connor on a forum. The next day he got a very polite email from his son Brad thanking him for keeping his dad's memory alive. Brad was a perfect gentleman and I'm sure that's the way Jack brought him up.
This cracks me up. I'm an older guy, 74 years old on the 25th of November. My paternal Grandpa was born in 1883 and while tough, he did have a rather conventional country upbringing. My Maternal Grandpa though was something else again. He was born in 1892, ran away from an orphanage at the age of 10 and raised himself basically by living off the land up in the Dakotas. Grandpa could read after a fashion and an old retired teacher made sure he had books to read. She also told him that penmanship was everything to round out a good education. He taught himself with encyclopedias and National Geographic and ended up having an incredibly beautiful Spencerian script.
As for toughness?? I've seen bigger men and there may be stronger men than he was then but I've never seen any one man put the two together like he did. Gentle?? Only to my Grandma whom he cherished. Grandpa Baumgardner was attacked by a man once who was older and bigger than Gramps was but My Grandpa grabbed the man's wrist, which was holding a knife and just squeezed. He broke the man's wrist and destroyed the ligaments and tendons inside as well. I don't think many folk ever challenged him after that.
I've read a bit of Elmer Keith's history and have always admired him, Thanks for this.
I used to read every word they both wrote. Jack O'Connor was more unassuming and simple, IMO. Keith was more brash and bold. Jack O'Connor would hunt anything with a 7x57mm or .270 Win. Keith wanted a sledge hammer "just in case".
They were all great. My heroes as a young man. I waited for the gun magazines every month. (I think my father subscribed to all of them, at least the big ones). I also liked Skeeter Skelton, Charles Askins and Bill Jordan .
The Keith style SWC cast bullet is certainly one of the best and I still cast them for loading my .38/.357 and .44 caliber handguns.
My late friend's mother moved from Boston to Montana as a child; they took a train, a stage, a wagon and finished their trip on horse back to get to their ranch...
When I was a kid I brought my 22 rifle to school for show and tell and in the bus in a gun case try doing that today and see how far you get! Boy times have change and not for the better in most cases
You know Ron, some of us would switch the order of those names...
Why yes I do hunt our little Pennsylvania whitetails with a 35 Whelen or a 45/70.
Why do you ask?
Ron, I was born in Salmon and my dad was friends with Elmer . The first time I met Elmer ,he and my dad were discussing different calibers of rifles. My dad preferred flat shooting longer range calibers such as the 270 or 25-06 and so Elmer and my dad had many discussions about large bore and smaller bore comparisons. I was only about 12 years and at that time I wasn’t aware of Elmers reputation as a writer and such,but he and my were good friends and had many conversations about hunting and different caliber comparisons. I must say my first impression of Elmer at my young age was,why is he carrying that big pistol in town , anyway thought you might enjoy my first impression of Elmer coming from a young lad lived in Salmon.
His quote, “”bigger is ALWAYS better !!”” Still rings true today. I hunted elk and bigger stuff and went from the 270 to the 338. Never looked back. Partition bullets were the best for me. 👍👍😃
Elmer was the real deal. I met him in 1974 at rcbs in Oroville for a dinner with Bill Jordan, Charles asking and others. Elmer was kind to us and honest in his answers to our many questions. I am blessed to have met those giants of men
I've read " Hell, I was there!" multiple times.
Great book by a great man.
👆🏻 SCAM
Jack and Elmer were two of my heroes growing up in the 60's , I have quite a few first printings of books from them both .. Jack gave me a love for the 270 and Elmer gave me an even greater love for barrels with huge holes in them .. I have a picture from around 1960 of Jack and Elmer at a shoot at a Winchester hunting area ( believe it was Winchester IIRC ) , standing next to each other !! I have herd that they both got along in person privately , but created the "feud" to promote each other and hunting , true or not ? Can't say . They both had the ability in the books and magazines to take me to the middle of some exotic land and put me right there with them ..
those books are $$$ will make great heirlooms
It's been 50+yrs since chasing around the desert in Idaho and I can't remember now if Elmer had a hand in my love of African hunting with big doubles or not but I do. Ron I just subscribed to your channel, are the big double rifles something your interested in?
Same for me. Never met the man, but followed along and in my mind I was right there. It was a very different time for sure. I settled on the 30-06 because I could afford one when I was 14, a used Mauser action sporter someone smithed themselves. I still have it. I never could determine who made it. Last year I shot two hogs with it and it still will do an inch at 100yds with my old self operating it.
@@49walker44 I put all the blame on Elmer for my doubles and large caliber bolt guns addiction .. Lost a WR 500 double in a fire some years back and current poison is a CZ550 458 Lott ..
@@sisleymichael cracks me up, my first rifle was a $29.95 8mm surplus Mauser full stock I got at Sears, they had a bunch in a barrel like toothpicks. First shot at a patient deer that let me reload twice while I jacked around with the sight. Finally ran off when I clipped an antler on shot 7or8. Traded for a rem 721 30-06.
I also read "Hunter" by A.J. Hunter as well as "African rifles and cartridges" by John Taylor, both hunters during the hay day of African hunting pre WW2. I have several custom black powder doubles, 50-110, 52-110 Romano, 45-70 and trying to find a 577 3" reamer but no luck so far.
Thanks to Kentucky ballistics for doing all the big bore shooting, I'm kind of past that.
🗣RON, Very good story on Elmer. Now to be FAIR, you need to do one on Jack O’Connor too.
I do not know ANYONE else that has A type of handgun bullet named after them' RELEVENT EVEN TODAY : LONG LIVE ELMER
429421 👍
Dick casull, and John linebaugh.
@@suemeade2471 I maybe wrong but I do not believe Casull and Linebaugh had a Bullet named after them . True there is the 454 Casull and 475 Linebaugh , but the bullet 429421 is called a Keith
It seems Elmer Keith was a Wil Rogers type guy. The public at the time really loved those guys.
I just started reloading because of you. Started with 9mm a few months ago… I’m up to 5 calibers now. I absolutely love it. Thank you! I like reloading almost as much as shooting.
When you start handloading is when you really begin to learn about guns/shooting.
I didn't know him at all but I did see him once when I was maybe ten or so, We were in traffic and Elmer was walking across an intersection in Salmon ID. My Dad knew him well enough they went out shooting handguns a few times--my Dad is mentioned in this book, not by name. He said "a friend drove him to the hospital" after a heart attack. The friend was my dad.
I idolized Elmer Keith growing up in the 1970-80s and read his books and articles religiously. I bought a Model 71 Winchester strictly bc of him..
I'm not that young and not that old I remember as a kid in the 80's reading about both of these legends and was always fascinated and eager to read their articles or any articles written about them.
I would love for you to cover Townsend Whelen some time! He was my favorite gun guy along with jack O’Connor.
Love Townsend, but my favorite is an unknown called Francis E. Sell. The best resource for timber hunting I've found. The first hunting book I ever owned was The Deer Hunters Guide, and when I first read it 20 years ago all his minutia on proper noise, thermal drift, and mirroring game movement was hard to digest. Been exclusively hunting bush for 15 years now, and the longer I do it the more I realize he was a genius.
Worked at Sam Fowlers stockade as a teen....met all the gun writers of the 80s.....even helped with the paperwork on General Curtis Lemay picking up his signature pistol from the store.
I started reading Elmer’s writings in the 60s. He used to teach marksmanship at Erv Malnarich’s guide school in Hamilton, MT. I read “Hell, I Was There” years ago and it is a great narrative.
I used to work for Erv, the stories he told of Elmer were priceless!
Ron--You should read the book for audible so we can listen to it while driving to hunting camp!!
Hell, I Was There was the best book I ever owned. Loaned it to a friend, he died before I got it back. I think Elmer was an honest man. There have been a lot of his stories verified by many people.
The story of when he burned his hand and what he did to fix it. I doubt there is a man alive now that would be even think about it.
like when he shot 6 jack rabbits on the run with one shot ! lol that one always had me saying bs ! then i read hell i was their and he told the story in it . lol never thought he shot a pregnant rabbit ! lol . that's when i knew elmer told the truth , but did let you think what you would about it lol ! like the time i was on stage at the grand ol opry in nashville . i had to deliver a package and the guy was on the far end of the stage lol ! i walked across the stage and gave it to him .
I believe he was a straight shooter. It's very much a product of our times that we are tempted to think people dishonest when they may just occasionally be incorrect.
Thank you Ron for a great video about Elmer Keith and the book "Hell, I Was There." I have read that book twice and will have to get it out and read it again. Reading many of Jack O'Connor's books and many of Elmer's articles in the hunting and shooting magazines filled many cold afternoons in the off season when I was young. The difference in their writing styles and the directions they came from to the hunting scene made for great reading and I am sure many a lively hunting camp discussion.
Wow . Great video.
I read about him while I was in middle school and in high school study hall class. He was in outdoor life or one of the gun magazines all the time back in the early and mid 70s. Good stuff. ♥️
I was 16 working for my local farmer during the summertime. This was my summer job, spending money and hunting rights all in one. That year I half lucked into my first Whitetail. He was a big bodied (180lbs dressed) 7 point. I was about 25 feet up the hillside overlooking the mouth of this Kentucky holler as it changed from woods to old pasture land. Two years earlier i had gotten a used Rossi m92 .45 Colt with a 20" barrel. At around sunset thirty i looked 90 degrees to my right and saw a deer coming up out of the creek and not from up the valley as i planned. I knew if I moved is be busted. Just turning slowly to the right got his attention. I was still and as he decided to come on up the creek bank i swung my rifle with my right hand only, aimed at what i knew to be a quartering boiler room shot and Bang! After being taught how to dress him and hauling him home n hanging him we all noticed there was no entrance wound. After pulling hide all the was down to his neck still no trauma. My dad says" hey, look here" In the bridge of that deers nose was a hole. When dressing the comment was made several times to "look at all the blood in his chest" That standard power JHP .45 Colt went in his nose, down his neck and into the boiler room. The first would be hard to ever forget but i get to say i gor mine "Right Between The Eyes"
Sad that we don't have gun writers like Elmer or Jack in 2022 !
So true
You have Ron Spomer here who is a pretty famous writer and a very good one. Check him out. I remember him mostly from his writing monthly in Outdoor Life.
We have Ron Spomer and Joseph VonBenedict. What more do you need. Skeeter Skelton influenced me to buy two Ruger .44 Specials, my standard load is 7 grains Unique with 240 gr bullet. Great guns, great border patrol stories.
Always read Elmer and Skeeter Skelton articles back when I first started reloading, enjoyed their insight on reloading. 78 now kind of hard getting around, but still enjoy shooting.
I mowed his lawn as a kid lol he was a character.after his death they displayed a few of his mounts in salmon for the public.he always wore his pistol
Which one?
Corey Merrill I believe he favored his 41
My great great grandfather was one of the gunsmiths that worked on his no4 revolver, Neil Houchins
This the kind of person we need more of in todays world. Someone with a set! Ron could read the whole book and I’d listen to it.
I believe that Bill Ruger sent him a .44 Magnum revolver in thanks and as a tribute to his part played in its finally becoming a reality. Thank torso very much for YOUR Elmer Keith tribute. 😊
Bill Ruger had his 44 mag on the marked before S&W due to the fact some 44 fired test case where where found and made it to Ruger
There are still folks like Elmer, but you won't find them on TH-cam.
I remember reading many articles in Guns & Ammo magazine back in the early to mid-1970s that Mr. Keith wrote along with Bob Melik and Bill Jorden.
I have a quite a few of Elmer's books and love them dearly, a great read for gun lovers young or old ( i'm 62) also have a few Jack o connor books, I make sure to keep them separated on the bookcase just to be sure a fire doesn't break out!
Thanks Ron. I sure do appreciate the time that you took to research Elmer Keith’s biography as well as taking the time to share that with us. It’s always nice to know that the Wild West lives on
I love Elmer. I grew up reading his articles. My uncle gave the all the old issues of Guns and Ammo and the American Rifleman.
Dad was more a rifle guy and hunter, although he owned 2 handguns , a 22 we'd hunt rabbit with and a 38, so he was OConnor fan and a 270 adherent. it wasn't until I was in high school in the 80s and taking an interest in handguns and reading magazines that I discovered Elmer Keith along with Colonel Cooper and Mas Ayoob.
I absolutely love your passion and good-natured laugh as you retell these stories.
I have hunted around Riggins Idaho, I have not seen steeper mountains since.
I like the story he wrote about a sherrif in Montana that carried a single action 45 colt and always loaded only 5 rounds. When asked why not 6 he said "once I killed 5 men I will have time to reload "
People always carried a revolver on an empty cylinder back then. You didn't want to hit the hammer resting on a primer. I was taught that when I was a kid.
@@TexanUSMC8089 I have heard that about Colts also but that Sherrif probably injoyed telling that story instead.
When I got this book in the late 80s, I couldn’t put it down. The part where they locked the doors and beat up the Chicago Barbers is classic.
Both of these men are absolute legends in the world of hunting and sport shooting. Jack reminds me of my great grandfather on my mother's side, who was a chical research scientist for DOW chemical. Elmer reminds me of my grandfather on my father's side. He was a gruff and heavy handed man when it came to raising my dad and his 3 brothers, much like how his father raised him. Two men from very different walks of life, both equally as different as the otger. What Elmer and Jack had in common was one thing for certain. An absolute love of the hunt.
Thank you so much for sharing.. I am going on 78... I have noticed sharing our books we get to know and understand another man or woman.. I always notice the book shelf.., I still have (saved) my American Rifleman mags.. on Elmer another on the great George McGivern and that day in August 1932..nearly Everybook in my library is signed dated and marked up., that way I know where I was and what I was doing no matter the day month or time .. same when I paint my artwork.,😅 tonight we learned a little about you.. I started collecting my hero’s on army troop trains.. from Missourah to Camp Roberts.,August 6-9..1945-to Army Camp George Pickett,, That December when we lost General Patton.. it was there I heard my first Japanese.., you’re a great story teller,, thank you again for all of us.. Peace be to this House 🏠 ❤ the Missourian From the Show me State..
Story time with Uncle Ron. 👍👍
Very enjoyable Ron!
I met Mr. Keith back in 1977 when he put on a seminar in Dallas, Texas. That morning he autographed books from 09:00 to about 13:00 and there wasn't a lot of people since it was a Tuesday morning. I really had him all to myself except when a banker came in for about 30 minutes. He was very easy to talk with, seemed like we'd known each other for a long time, kind of like talking with my grandfather, who was about the same age. He confided that a lot of the shots he wrote about was a lot of luck but, as he shot daily, he had better luck than most!😉😄
Would like to meet you too as you seem to be a down to earth type fellow! Keep up the good work.
You can often find old books like this through your local library if they are part of an inter-library loan system. That's how I read this book, as well as a couple Skeeter Skelton's books.
Thank you So much Mr Sooner for bringing my youth Hero back to memory and a Relation we can(and SURE as daylight WILL) Show our kids
MY ALL TIME FAVORITE MONTANA BOY ! GOT TO SIT WITH HIM IN JACKSON WYOMING AT AN NRA BANDQUET IN I BELIEVE THE EARLY 90,S ! A SUPER WONDERFUL COUPLE ! LOVE THAT BOOK !😊
Reading his stuff when I was a kid got me started in handgun hunting and introduced me to the 338 I'm still in love with both.
Having worked in the publishing industry, I'll wager that magazine editors took Keith's half literate copy and TOTALLY rewrote it, adding their own embellishments and exaggerations to make it more exciting and readable. Keith was in Idaho -- hell yes -- but he wasn't in the editorial office in New York City.
Great book
I have always been a big fan o f old Elmer .44 magnum Keith.
Crazy things can happen to bullets when shooting
I knew there was something I liked about you; besides our mutual appreciation for good, old, solid, well made Winchester and Mauser bolt action rifles that is. I haven't cracked the cover of Hell, I Was There in over a decade, but it still sits in its spot on the shelf waiting there for me to reread it for the umpteenth time again. I was introduced (reading wise) to both Keith and O'Connor a long time ago as I used to save up my .25¢ weekly allowance to buy Field & Stream, Outdoor Life and Sports Afield in the early '50's as a kid. It was Keith who was the one who influenced my preference for semi wadcutters in revolvers. In fact, when they came out (in limited production) I bought a 6½" bbl Smith & Wesson Model 24, their reissue of the 1950 Target that Keith had used to work on his idea for the .44 S&W Magnum that he presented to them. His load for it was 18 grains of Hercules 2400 for the .44 Special and 22 grains of 2400 for the .44 Magnum after Smith and Remington made the round for about the same velocity with 240 gr. semi wadcutters. I found a little less 2400 to be more accurate in my particular gun - xx.x grains.
I never heard of this guy, until I watched this video, what an awesome American icon!!!
Another fantastic video from the man, Mr. Ron Spomer! I really appreciate what you do, Ron. I’ve learned so much from you over the years.
Thanks Landon. Glad my information was of value.
I have a number of Mr. Keith's books. Around 1976 I wrote him a letter - Mr. Elmer Keith, Salmon ID - and ask if I shipped him the books if he would autograph them for me (I sent money for return postage). He replied that he would be proud to sign them and to *send them on....* It was funny, he actually hand corrected a couple of typos in the book and sent them back. I learned to cast bullets from *Sixguns* by Keith. A truly great man. Never got to meet him in person but I did get to shake hands with Bill Jordan, Skeeter Skelton, John Bianchi, and Charlie Askins. Great men, sorely missed. As I recollect it, *Hell I was there* was the title that Keith wanted - he had published and earlier autobiography - *Keith: An autobiography* by Keith, Elmer.
Whilst Mr. Keith did not have a refined writing style, you never misunderstood his point. Ron, thanks for you great work!
Well back then a 13yr old did most things any adult did. I've met people from that era that got married at 15yrs of age. My grandfather started his life as a sailor at 13yrs old. Worked all his life on ships, and retired ad 65, died at approx 70. Back then people had an enormous amount of freedom. Which must've been nice, exept if they failed they would starve.
I’ve got an old Smith and Wesson Model 29-2 with an 8 3/8” barrel that I nicknamed “Elmer”, and I have an old Savage 110 in .270 that I call “Big Jack”! Grew up reading my grandpas gun and hunting magazines, and Jacks hunting stories always stuck with me.
When I was getting my son his own deer rifle I asked him what he wanted. He said since he grew up with me reading him Jack O’Connors stories out of “The Treasury of Outdoor Life”, he had to have a .270. I managed to find him a left handed Savage 110C in .270 and he used it to good effect. When he went into the Air Force I used it one year just to keep it from getting lonesome on the rack and shot my best buck so far with it. The left hand bolt was no problem as it was a one and done. Both of my sons shoot left handed and I was lucky to find them both left handed actions.
Thanks for sharing that Ron. Never knew that about Elmer. Very interesting. From your readings he was just like most real men of that time. Hard nosed, thick skinned, no nonsense, tell you like it is characters. Don't see many like him these days.
I’m a proud owner of several autographed copies of his books. I corresponded with him back in the 80’s while I was recovering from burns I sustained in an oilfield fire so could identify with the experience of being burned. I agree that some of what he wrote stretches credulity but it didn’t detract from my enjoyment of his writing. His writing stimulated my interest in long range revolver shooting and opened my eyes to what is really possible with a handgun with enough practice. Two other eye opening books on handgun shooting are “Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting” by Ed McGivern,
and Bill Jordan’s book, “No Second Place Winner”, about gun fighting.
Another good read is Col. Charles Askins book “Unrepentant Sinner”, though it may not be to everyone’s taste.
I'm fortunate to have both of Elmer's books . I also load "Kieth" bullets for my 357 and 44. I'm often asked if i''ll part with the books and my answer is No... some things you just don't part with. Thanks for another great video Ron.
"Both"? Elmer wrote at least a half-dozen books.
Grew up, wanted to bee hunter and shooter reading his articles in G&A arround the 1960's 70's and on, before reliable expanding jacketed bullets, Elmer promoted big bore cast bullets, eventualy jacketed bullets improved and remember promoting the 333OKH, still a medium bore over Jack's 270, High speed smaller expanding bullets took a time to catch on, AND the came Weatherby !!!!
One of my favorite books. I agree with you on all counts. Elmer might have stretched the truth a time or two, but he was a great story teller, and I think most of his stories are based in fact.
I still load my 44 to Elmers load if it's good enough for him it's good enough for me. I also have both of his books very good reading.
I read his book loved it
Ron, I wish that I had a neighbor like you.
I grew up reading JOC and Elmer and loved them both. They were only competitors in the media. JOC's view on hunting and hunting rifles was much different than Elmer's. JOC made the .270 Win a legend and it's still one of my favorite hunting rifles. Elmer was a strong proponent of magnum rounds! His research and leadership is still strong in this theater. Both great writers and outdoorsman. I never saw any "competition" between them.
Wow, other than bashing the .270, the man was REALLY a Legend. Thanks Ron. I’d like to read that book for sure. And I suppose the word “ethical” wouldn’t be a concept Elmer’d be familiar with either; gives new meaning to ‘throwing lead’…
I never met Elmer Keith but he was a awesome gun magazine writer. And had some wonderful tales. The book is well worth the read!
I was a personal friend of Jack Rush Elmer and Jack were friends so I was gifted to hear some great stories surrounding their friendship
GREAT ! More of this. Enjoyed it 👍
Perhaps there's something within the ancient soil in Helena Montana that seems to attract gunslingers?
Before Elmer Keith appeared this ranching area got a boost from former Confederate soldiers post Civil War looking for fresh start raising livestock.
Keith admitted learning from them six gun tips.
And a few decades after Keith another group of gunslingers made Helena Montana it's home barracks: the elite First Special Service Force. A joint American Canadian raiding force that made its bones WW2 Italy.
Maybe the local natives know what's going on thereabouts?
Yes a movie was made about that group, “The Devils Brigade”. They were definitely elite and mostly badass tough men. Their original task was to take out the heavy water manufacturing facility in Norway that the Germans were using to make the Atomic bomb. However the British came up with the bouncing bomb concept to bust the dam that produced the electricity for the heavy water plant using the Royal Air Force Lancaster bombers. Also made into a movie, something like “Dam busters”. Anyway this brigade in Montana was then assigned to various suicide missions throughout the war. Most of them perished. A sad movie based on actual facts.
Wow that was really entertaining, you sure have a knack for reading and telling a story! Your confidence in communication is surely a gift.
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@Text +① (⑦⑦⑤) ③①②-②①⑨⑦ Scam. Sorry these scammers keep doing this.
Ron you could have read the whole book and I would have gladly sat through it, Elmer is a legend in his time and you sir are in today's world you have a perfect storyteller voice and banter to captivate us listening and watching.
I thought the intro was a story about Ron!
I'm taking hemo and man Ron you keep me entertained cause that chemo has me chair ridden thank you.
more stories please, elmer, jack, and teddy. when I was a teen I shot a mule deer at the base of the neck with a .270, 130gr. it disappeared in sage brush. bullet bounced upwards, traveled through 5 lodged vertebrae and lodged under the skin half way up.
You have a great voice for reading.
My first few deer were taken with a .270 Winchester and it never failed me. That said, I've been practicing diligently with my S&W 629 and Ruger SBH in the hopes of hitting the woods with a .44 Magnum. I love Sixguns and keep a collection of Keith's old articles on my phone. He tells great stories, but also has excellent shooting, reloading, and hunting tips.
yeah but elmer said rhe .270 was a coyote rifle
@@ronalddavis he did. He liked the big bores and I like the big bores too. I probably shoot .44 Special and Magnum more than every other cartridge combined.
That said, I don't share Keith's hatred for O'Connor or .2xx rifle calibers. The .270 is definitely a good coyote round with light bullets. It's a great deer round with medium bullets. I wouldn't hesitate to use a round nosed soft point 150 gr bullet on elk or even moose within 150 yards.
Thank you for this
Ron, I totally loved your take on Elmer!