I always just have to shake my head in silence when i hear or read negative comments that are made against that which is taught in the book of mormon. It usually starts off by saying roughly that "current research has shown that there was never warfare found in the americas, thus showing us how the BofM cannot be true." And they say it as though there is a competition or something. Yet in every single case, time has shown us the truth, and has been unchangeable in its statements and teachings, and has shown that every unknown piece of knowledge can be laid to rest by simply reading the book of mormon to find the answers for both learning of christ, and understanding the historical record more clearly. We may not see the elephants yet, but before one gnashes at the idea, just give it some time and rest assured that the truth will eventually reveal itself, and those elephant bones will be dug up and made known.
Wayne May has a video which features a scimitar found within the Hopewell sphere of influence. The videos are quite long and he has numerous presentations so I'm not sure which video and at what time stamp, but I have seen it.
Fair Mormon I understand that is the standard answer, but I have a hard time accepting anyone's opinion regarding anything's authenticity from that time period. There has to be more, of course, and I see that broad consistency more in the Heartland Theory than in any other. I also have nothing but respect for those scholars working on their own theories and points of interest. I don't dismiss them casually, and I would caution against doing the same with Heartland theorists.
I should note, too, that while I really enjoy the stuff Wayne May and Rod Meldrum talk about, I'm more persuaded by what I would call "common sense" for lack of a better term. I hesitate to call it that because it implies ignorance in those who disagree. Not what I mean. I mean that with the mountains of information at our fingertips today, and with most of it being BS, one has to rely more and more, I think, on personal impressions and perceptions of the direction of the Spirit and their own instincts. Study is important and discussion equally so, but there are so many things in the BoM that, on its face, do not in any way match the MA model that I simply can't take it too seriously. Just reading the descriptions of the "Promised Land" it's pretty clear that it's not talking about Mexico or Columbia. Moreover, the references to missionaries being sent to the "Lamanites" in the D&C and historical documents was not related to them going to Mexico or Central America. Finally, so much of the scholarly water is polluted at the source. The early "experts" were largely self-proclaimed and self-authorized and were promoting a statist and tyrannical agenda in a political sense. Their philosophies were rooted in Darwinism and an attempt--as with other statists-- to translate those false ideas into a political and governing philosophy which included branding Indians as "savages" (and, I might add, the Mormons as "barbarians") which soothed whatever bruises their consciences may have sustained at the forced exodus of both groups. Again, I would not make light of your study, your opinions, and your insights. I am just starting from a different set of established beliefs, I think, than you and other MA model proponents are.
Exact location of all this is not as important as the messages sent from Heavenly Father as to what we are to do and to grow spiritually. The other things like proof of locations and arguing over where it all took place will be revealed when we are suppose to know it. Right now we are to focus on Faith, learning repentance and growing spiritually as well as sharing the truth with others. This other stuff is a distraction from the important things.
What about how the book of Abraham was translated? What about Joseph Smith being a polygamist and having a fourteen-year-old wife on the sole purpose of procreating and wanting to have children. What about the kinder hook plates? These types of questions can't go unanswered.
@@Rope_yogurt you sound like you’ve lost your testimony. Polygamy was a part of our church history. Get used to it. The church does not practice. Plural marriage or polygamy anymore. Thank goodness…. one mother-in-law is plenty.
@@KB-nv4bl it's hard to keep my testimony when i learned that Joseph Smith was a terrible man. He has a wife that was 14 while he was 37. That makes him a pedophile. He didn't like black people. Which makes him a racist. Then in 1976 god changed his mind about black people?? Then the translation of the book of Abraham turned out to be a burial procedures scrolls. Which he "translated" horribly. Then he translated the kinderhook plates which ended up being fake. That makes him a liar. We're supposed to think he was a profit? He was a liar, he was a racist, and he was a pedophile.
Joseph Smith never called it the hill Cumorah. Oliver Cowdery appears to be responsible for jumping to the conclusion. Moroni tells us that he had to leave the land of his birth, because they were killing anyone who wouldn't deny the Christ. Why would he go back to bury the gold plates? I think it is more likely that he went in search of the northern Nephite colonies.
@@robertrosskopf4641 He did wonder for more than a decade after the destruction of his people, which would be easy to get from southern Mexico to the New York region in that time.
@@karlshaner2453 , exactly. I believe the Mound Builders were a Nephite colony, and that we don't have their history in the Book of Mormon. The original Hill Cumorah may well be in Nicaragua, where there is a very narrow neck of land and an ancient stone carving people just to the north.
@@robertrosskopf4641 They know who they were and where. All I need know is that the record is true and beyond that trust in the Lord to reveal all things in due time. I also think it more likely the Meso-American model fits, but that is just my limited opinion.
Actually there is more evidence for Meso America than for North America. There are two maps given by Joseph Smith that are now in the church library north of Temple Square that shows the travels of Moroni coming up from Mexico, through Utah dedicating temples lots on the way, across the midland to New York and back because he did not have enough gold and copper to make more plates. There is a line of defense near a village called Paradon, meaning big wall. It is written about in Alma 22:32 and in Helaman 4:7 that the line of defense was a days journey and then again a day and half journey for a Nephite. According parts of that wall is found near Paradon. There is also an area there where the land is divided by the sea on the western coast. The ismas of Tuantitepec is the narrow neck of land, just as an example.
So the howlers are the critics of the Book of Mormon. Would not a better title be Howlers and the Book of Mormon. Howlers in the Book of Mormon implies that howlers are a character found in the book itself. Just my humble opinion.
I am disturbed by the speakers certainty about where The Book of Mormon took place. He said "must". Why didn't he say "probably" or "I am convinced"? I am not sure if I would have spoken with such certainty about where it actually took place. To those confused about where The Book of Mormon took place I say, "You are a fellow saint. Please stay active and we will be certain when we are rubbing shoulders in the Celestial Kingdom.".
Jim Caponzi - dude...what happened to you? Why do you even care? It sounds like a matter of life or death for you. People all over the world believe stuff that other people don't. OK so you don't believe mormonism. But don't you have a life? Why would you even be watching this or reading the comments?
You can be disturbed all you want, but that’s his objective. He’s not doing an “I think it is project.” he is like someone defending their dissertation.
Damascus steel has been around the Middle East for thousands of years, the technology migrated to other parts of the area. The problem with the Howlers in the 1800s, they were ignorant of these points of fact. When Lehi came to the new world they brought the technology with them and Labans sword with them. Nephi copied the sword as stated in the B.O.M.
This is a GREAT presentation. Any chance you guys can put it in a PDF format and make it available? That last part by Sorenson is especially great. I could sure use it in my missionary work!
"smite off the head" does not mean to sever the head from the body. According to the example in Judges 5:26 Jael "smote off" or delt a death blow to the head of Sisera using a nail.
Nice to hear a return of sorts to favorable commenting about Hugh Nibley. Have yet to read anything by moder-day LDS scholars that comes close to the works of Nibley.
Judges 5:26 To "smite off" in KJV english/Hebrew does not mean "to cut off" but to "deal a death blow to." You cannot cut off head with nail to the temple.
Many of the structures in South America will eventually prove to be Antediluvian, as are many of the other mysterious and unexplainable stone structures all over the world.
This talk is absolutely correct, and so great that they too have understood the concept of time calculations and how their year was slightly less than our current year of 365 days, and not 360 days as was the "tun." That is such an important step in making sense out of the inscriptions. The only thing lacking is fixing the start date, which has been 3114 BC, but SHOULD be, 3642 BC. With this date in place, many of the other dates wilp start to make perfect sense.
Great lecture except for Meso-America. Why assume the Prophet and Book of Mormon have to be modified to make it work in Meso-America when it does fit North America? I.e. Swords. A blade made up of shark teeth is not in the likeness of the sword of Laban.
Why do people mistrust the church LDS, because we don't know exactly where Lehi came to. Obviously they ended up in the upper US states, but as likely they could have started out in the lower Americas.
Because of ignorance and deception by the adversary, like I was before I was baptized in Italy 46 years ago. Signs and revelations and profound and absolutely amazing factual knowledge follow the believers who are doers of the word.
It really isn't that important where the Nephites landed when they left Jerusalem, the most important thing to remember is that the purpose of the Book of Mormon was saved for us in the latter days as a second witness to the Bible that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. I. myself , tend to believe the Nephites first landed in or near Columbia, South America. Forty years ago I found an article in the San Diego newspaper of a dominican monk by the name of Father Miguel Santa Maria Puerta, who claims on thirty years of his own research that the Native Americans are descendants of the Jews. He claims that Columbia's Chibcas natives built up two rival states. He found a stone with the inscription which read "Shivot Zion," meaning the rest of the people of Zion. In the Book of Mormon, there were two rival states, the Nephites and the Lamanites. The Nephites were destroyed latr because of iniquity which left the Lamanites in the land of America in which they are the ancestors of the Native Americans of today.
Damascus steel was well known throughout the Middle East, and has been around for thousands of years. It is perfectly reasonable that Lehi and his family knew about making steel with iron and carbon from the fire.
Another volcanic eruption, even greater than the one near Puebla, is that of Apoyeque in Nicaragua, also dated to the time of the death of Christ. Here we have very visible evidence of the changes described in the Book of Mormon, as a large part of Nicaragua now lies under a huge inland lake, a lake that was tiny prior to the eruption. We also have a narrow neck of land - the narrowest of all the proposed necks of land, one that could be crossed in the time allotted. It wasn't just a major trade route, it was the only trade route between Peru and Mesoamerica, except for sea routes. To the east were all but impenetrable mountains. No one would prefer a route through those when this easy coastal plain was available.
The pattern seems to suggest that where questions continue to exist, the best course of action is to simply remain faithful until secular knowledge catches up with the truth of the Book of Mormon.
Everything claimed in the Book of Mormon can never be proved wrong because it comes from God himself. This I have found in 47 years of study. What about the Hebrew Egyptian cultures in ancient America? New amazing evidence that many Indian tribes are of Jewish origin. Didn't you know that.? Sir.
The symbol on the upper right bothers me. The Book of Mormon people were semitic and therefore had no symbols for vowels, why is there an Greek omega? Also, the eye symbol makes no sense since all alphabets derived from the Egyptian alphabet like Hebrew, demotic, and Assyrian had only very simplified versions of the original hieroglyphics.
I always just have to shake my head in silence when i hear or read negative comments that are made against that which is taught in the book of mormon. It usually starts off by saying roughly that "current research has shown that there was never warfare found in the americas, thus showing us how the BofM cannot be true." And they say it as though there is a competition or something. Yet in every single case, time has shown us the truth, and has been unchangeable in its statements and teachings, and has shown that every unknown piece of knowledge can be laid to rest by simply reading the book of mormon to find the answers for both learning of christ, and understanding the historical record more clearly. We may not see the elephants yet, but before one gnashes at the idea, just give it some time and rest assured that the truth will eventually reveal itself, and those elephant bones will be dug up and made known.
Ditto the cimeters and swords--they are abundant in the Hopewell sphere
Wayne May has a video which features a scimitar found within the Hopewell sphere of influence. The videos are quite long and he has numerous presentations so I'm not sure which video and at what time stamp, but I have seen it.
Fair Mormon I understand that is the standard answer, but I have a hard time accepting anyone's opinion regarding anything's authenticity from that time period. There has to be more, of course, and I see that broad consistency more in the Heartland Theory than in any other. I also have nothing but respect for those scholars working on their own theories and points of interest. I don't dismiss them casually, and I would caution against doing the same with Heartland theorists.
Thanks for the note. I do enjoy the stuff you post, here. I'll check 'em out.
I should note, too, that while I really enjoy the stuff Wayne May and Rod Meldrum talk about, I'm more persuaded by what I would call "common sense" for lack of a better term. I hesitate to call it that because it implies ignorance in those who disagree. Not what I mean.
I mean that with the mountains of information at our fingertips today, and with most of it being BS, one has to rely more and more, I think, on personal impressions and perceptions of the direction of the Spirit and their own instincts. Study is important and discussion equally so, but there are so many things in the BoM that, on its face, do not in any way match the MA model that I simply can't take it too seriously.
Just reading the descriptions of the "Promised Land" it's pretty clear that it's not talking about Mexico or Columbia. Moreover, the references to missionaries being sent to the "Lamanites" in the D&C and historical documents was not related to them going to Mexico or Central America.
Finally, so much of the scholarly water is polluted at the source. The early "experts" were largely self-proclaimed and self-authorized and were promoting a statist and tyrannical agenda in a political sense. Their philosophies were rooted in Darwinism and an attempt--as with other statists-- to translate those false ideas into a political and governing philosophy which included branding Indians as "savages" (and, I might add, the Mormons as "barbarians") which soothed whatever bruises their consciences may have sustained at the forced exodus of both groups.
Again, I would not make light of your study, your opinions, and your insights. I am just starting from a different set of established beliefs, I think, than you and other MA model proponents are.
Understood. All the best to you, and thanks, again, for all you do.
Exact location of all this is not as important as the messages sent from Heavenly Father as to what we are to do and to grow spiritually. The other things like proof of locations and arguing over where it all took place will be revealed when we are suppose to know it. Right now we are to focus on Faith, learning repentance and growing spiritually as well as sharing the truth with others. This other stuff is a distraction from the important things.
Yes my goal is to be a righteous man. Names and locations are just that but it’s the righteous message I’m interested in.
What about how the book of Abraham was translated? What about Joseph Smith being a polygamist and having a fourteen-year-old wife on the sole purpose of procreating and wanting to have children. What about the kinder hook plates? These types of questions can't go unanswered.
@@Rope_yogurt you sound like you’ve lost your testimony. Polygamy was a part of our church history. Get used to it. The church does not practice. Plural marriage or polygamy anymore. Thank goodness…. one mother-in-law is plenty.
@@KB-nv4bl it's hard to keep my testimony when i learned that Joseph Smith was a terrible man. He has a wife that was 14 while he was 37. That makes him a pedophile. He didn't like black people. Which makes him a racist. Then in 1976 god changed his mind about black people?? Then the translation of the book of Abraham turned out to be a burial procedures scrolls. Which he "translated" horribly. Then he translated the kinderhook plates which ended up being fake. That makes him a liar. We're supposed to think he was a profit? He was a liar, he was a racist, and he was a pedophile.
I thought the Book of Mormon took place in Meso America when I was younger and had done less research. The evidence points to North America.
Joseph Smith never called it the hill Cumorah. Oliver Cowdery appears to be responsible for jumping to the conclusion. Moroni tells us that he had to leave the land of his birth, because they were killing anyone who wouldn't deny the Christ. Why would he go back to bury the gold plates? I think it is more likely that he went in search of the northern Nephite colonies.
@@robertrosskopf4641 He did wonder for more than a decade after the destruction of his people, which would be easy to get from southern Mexico to the New York region in that time.
@@karlshaner2453 , exactly. I believe the Mound Builders were a Nephite colony, and that we don't have their history in the Book of Mormon. The original Hill Cumorah may well be in Nicaragua, where there is a very narrow neck of land and an ancient stone carving people just to the north.
@@robertrosskopf4641 They know who they were and where. All I need know is that the record is true and beyond that trust in the Lord to reveal all things in due time. I also think it more likely the Meso-American model fits, but that is just my limited opinion.
Actually there is more evidence for Meso America than for North America. There are two maps given by Joseph Smith that are now in the church library north of Temple Square that shows the travels of Moroni coming up from Mexico, through Utah dedicating temples lots on the way, across the midland to New York and back because he did not have enough gold and copper to make more plates. There is a line of defense near a village called Paradon, meaning big wall. It is written about in Alma 22:32 and in Helaman 4:7 that the line of defense was a days journey and then again a day and half journey for a Nephite. According parts of that wall is found near Paradon. There is also an area there where the land is divided by the sea on the western coast. The ismas of Tuantitepec is the narrow neck of land, just as an example.
So the howlers are the critics of the Book of Mormon. Would not a better title be Howlers and the Book of Mormon. Howlers in the Book of Mormon implies that howlers are a character found in the book itself. Just my humble opinion.
1:20 - howlers are in the book.
I am disturbed by the speakers certainty about where The Book of Mormon took place. He said "must". Why didn't he say "probably" or "I am convinced"? I am not sure if I would have spoken with such certainty about where it actually took place. To those confused about where The Book of Mormon took place I say, "You are a fellow saint. Please stay active and we will be certain when we are rubbing shoulders in the Celestial Kingdom.".
Jim Caponzi - dude...what happened to you? Why do you even care? It sounds like a matter of life or death for you. People all over the world believe stuff that other people don't. OK so you don't believe mormonism. But don't you have a life? Why would you even be watching this or reading the comments?
You can be disturbed all you want, but that’s his objective. He’s not doing an “I think it is project.” he is like someone defending their dissertation.
The 600 year issue needs to be re-examined according the the reckoning of time in the Hopewell civilization, as Meso-America is NOT the Promised Land.
That would be difficult, since the Hopewell left no books behind. The only books in all of the Americas were found in Mesoamerica.
Love it!
Damascus steel has been around the Middle East for thousands of years, the technology migrated to other parts of the area. The problem with the Howlers in the 1800s, they were ignorant of these points of fact. When Lehi came to the new world they brought the technology with them and Labans sword with them. Nephi copied the sword as stated in the B.O.M.
Someone should compile a dated report containing the text of the CES Letter and All of the known Howlers.
This is a GREAT presentation. Any chance you guys can put it in a PDF format and make it available? That last
part by Sorenson is especially great. I could sure use it in my missionary work!
Thank you Keep up the good work
Michael Coe was always so condescending when it came to the Book of Mormon, yet he was proven to be wrong in pretty much all of his claims.
"smite off the head" does not mean to sever the head from the body. According to the example in Judges 5:26 Jael "smote off" or delt a death blow to the head of Sisera using a nail.
Nice to hear a return of sorts to favorable commenting about Hugh Nibley. Have yet to read anything by moder-day LDS scholars that comes close to the works of Nibley.
Judges 5:26 To "smite off" in KJV english/Hebrew does not mean "to cut off" but to "deal a death blow to." You cannot cut off head with nail to the temple.
I loved it but mesoAmerica to me makes no sense anymore
Question: If it all happened in North America, then who built Tiwanaku and Puma Punku in South America?
There were people here before Lehi and his family got here.
People scattered from the tower and/or other sheep. No one denies that there are other children of God that have been scattered
Many of the structures in South America will eventually prove to be Antediluvian, as are many of the other mysterious and unexplainable stone structures all over the world.
This talk is absolutely correct, and so great that they too have understood the concept of time calculations and how their year was slightly less than our current year of 365 days, and not 360 days as was the "tun." That is such an important step in making sense out of the inscriptions. The only thing lacking is fixing the start date, which has been 3114 BC, but SHOULD be, 3642 BC. With this date in place, many of the other dates wilp start to make perfect sense.
I think the name Nephi possibly can from the Israel tribe Naphtali .
I thought a howler was a nasty letter in Harry Potter 😁
Great lecture except for Meso-America. Why assume the Prophet and Book of Mormon have to be modified to make it work in Meso-America when it does fit North America? I.e. Swords. A blade made up of shark teeth is not in the likeness of the sword of Laban.
Why do people mistrust the church LDS, because we don't know exactly where Lehi came to. Obviously they ended up in the upper US states, but as likely they could have started out in the lower Americas.
Because of ignorance and deception by the adversary, like I was before I was baptized in Italy 46 years ago. Signs and revelations and profound and absolutely amazing factual knowledge follow the believers who are doers of the word.
It really isn't that important where the Nephites landed when they left Jerusalem, the most important thing to remember is that the purpose of the Book of Mormon was saved for us in the latter days as a second witness to the Bible that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. I. myself , tend to believe the Nephites first landed in or near Columbia, South America. Forty years ago I found an article in the San Diego newspaper of a dominican monk by the name of Father Miguel Santa Maria Puerta, who claims on thirty years of his own research that the Native Americans are descendants of the Jews. He claims that Columbia's Chibcas natives built up two rival states. He found a stone with the inscription which read "Shivot Zion," meaning the rest of the people of Zion. In the Book of Mormon, there were two rival states, the Nephites and the Lamanites. The Nephites were destroyed latr because of iniquity which left the Lamanites in the land of America in which they are the ancestors of the Native Americans of today.
Damascus steel was well known throughout the Middle East, and has been around for thousands of years. It is perfectly reasonable that Lehi and his family knew about making steel with iron and carbon from the fire.
Especially since Nephi mentioned mining and smelting ore to make tools for ship building.
Another volcanic eruption, even greater than the one near Puebla, is that of Apoyeque in Nicaragua, also dated to the time of the death of Christ. Here we have very visible evidence of the changes described in the Book of Mormon, as a large part of Nicaragua now lies under a huge inland lake, a lake that was tiny prior to the eruption. We also have a narrow neck of land - the narrowest of all the proposed necks of land, one that could be crossed in the time allotted. It wasn't just a major trade route, it was the only trade route between Peru and Mesoamerica, except for sea routes. To the east were all but impenetrable mountains. No one would prefer a route through those when this easy coastal plain was available.
Never heard of the beheading of Shiz before, interesting
And then we stumble into King Tut's meteoric nickel steel dagger which predates the Book of Mormon by 700 years.
@@mikkifrompreston4396 You're only half right.
The pattern seems to suggest that where questions continue to exist, the best course of action is to simply remain faithful until secular knowledge catches up with the truth of the Book of Mormon.
Did not take place in Meso-America. Joseph Smith said so.
Joseph Fielding Smith said it may have taken place in both areas North and South america.
Actually he suspected Guatemala to be the home of Zarahemla, as recorded in the Times and Seasons while he was the editor.
@@robertrosskopf4641 That was not Joseph's words. He didn't sign it, or sign off on it as editor.
@@robertrosskopf4641 That would be strange seeing as how the Lord named the location of Zarahemla right in the D&C.
Why isn’t one of thr prophets, seers and revelator doing this?
Everything claimed in the Book of Mormon can never be proved wrong because it comes from God himself. This I have found in 47 years of study. What about the Hebrew Egyptian cultures in ancient America? New amazing evidence that many Indian tribes are of Jewish origin. Didn't you know that.? Sir.
The symbol on the upper right bothers me. The Book of Mormon people were semitic and therefore had no symbols for vowels, why is there an Greek omega? Also, the eye symbol makes no sense since all alphabets derived from the Egyptian alphabet like Hebrew, demotic, and Assyrian had only very simplified versions of the original hieroglyphics.
Just cannot make this make any sense at all.
So dry.
So drink a coke while listening
I would re-title this video _Grasping at Straws for the Book of Mormon_ .
Fail.