DIY solar without permits
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2020
- This video shows you how to install solar panels on your house without city permits. Setup a grid tie inverter that does not generate more power than your house is using. This video shows how to setup a low cost grid tie inverter from Amazon to monitor power on both phases coming into your house so that it monitors the total power, not just the power of one phase coming in.
Solar panels: amzn.to/379TrS3
Solar panels, another low cost option: amzn.to/2vlXw8n
Grid tie inverter: amzn.to/2H8aUjb (I recommend adding a 4 year protection plan at checkout in case the inverter breaks)
Current sensor: amzn.to/2tGIb1Q
Y-cable: amzn.to/31O9e8h - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
You may have already figured this out, but you're measuring the power for your whole home, but the grid tie inverter is only supplying power to one half of your panel.
Since your inverter is only putting out 120v onto one leg of your panel, naturally you would want to hook the CT clamp to that leg. The other leg isn't affected by solar at all, so it shouldn't be metered. In fact, by combining both current clamps together, you are still opening yourself up to the meter reporting you to the utility for backfeeding. Now if your grid tie inverter was hooked directly to 240v (both phases), you would need both clamps.
This was a great answer that @donelsonas did not seem to understand.
So if you completely isolate the branch circuits in you house and use a pure sine wave inverter as a reference signal for grid tied inverter the smart meter wouldn't see anything through its neutral. Would that work?
HOWdy D-S,
No PERMITS is what I'm planning
Thanks
COOP
...
Good info.
If you're solar is metered with back feed pr9gram, I was thinking to add a 2-3 kw supplemental invertor and panels.
While the limiting software is the ticket, the thing I didn’t see you mention is that you’re feeding power from the inverter from one leg and a neutral. I’m not sure if the meter is smart enough to know that you could be drawing on one phase and back feeding on the other. You should only read one phase and backfeed into that phase. If you had a second inverter, you could hook into the other side of your breaker box. As far as safety, you’ll likely not backfeed into a blackout, but you are running electrical devices that aren’t UL listed. God forbid you have a fire, even unrelated to electrical, your insurance company might take issue with this.
I see a lot of people using these inverters saying they are still exporting power when big loads drop off. Has anyone considered adding capacitors between the inverter and mains to prevent back feeding?
Hi .
What inverter are using ?
The link you that you have doesn’t exist for the inverter !!!
Is it 220 volt?
how do you make sure the phase of the sensors is aligned?
I run mine on its own circuit, just to make it sure it doesnt get too hot.
As far as only measuring half the power of the house, you could plug it into a 240 outlet. With a box like this that's surface mounted right next to the inverter, it would be super easy to do and would then tie into both rails in the box
How has the system worked since you made this video? This is interesting
Can check link to ivertor keeps giving me me error message
That’s interesting!
Would if I never upgraded to the electric companies new meter and stuck to the old meter, would the Electric company have never known about my solar panels? I’m trying to save money and yet I would prefer not to obtain a solar permit due to un-permitted items on my property. Any advise would be great.
Basically it's just a matter of making sure you don't back feed when the power is out, and you shock a worker. What's funny where I live is you need a permit to do it and they make sure you have the right angle, the right sunlight, etc, which is weird for a state that doesn't make you get a permit for a/c and heating installs for diy.
What’s the name or brand of the inverter?
you need 2 inverters to balance load with limiters they say you will get charged if you put power on one legi
No. Absolutely false. The smart meter measures each leg in kilowatts/watts. I does not know that one leg is being fed energy unless it is over fed (back feeding). Just like if you turned off every breaker in your panel on one side of your 240VAC split phase, it just records the consumption from the one phase of 120 you left on. Its not as smart as you think.
What is the make/model of your inverter? Link is broken
Eco-worthy L03020201001-1
@@james6794this inverter returns power into the home directly by using a 110 outlet plug?
@@cenval999 yes
A very good video on these SUN inverters. I still do not understand why one must monitor both 120V lines when one is just using power on one of the lines. I do have a dual sensor setup I bought separately when I was using the 2000W 240V version of this brand of inverters but it did not work because the 2000W inverter distributed power equally across both 120V lines instead of providing power to the line that was using the power. So if I was using 800W on Line 1 and none on Line 2 the inverter produced 800W but split the power across both lines. 400W on line 1 and 400W on line 2 alerting the power company. I now plan on using two 1000W 120V inverter to monitor each line separately, but your video seems to indicate this might not work either without using two dual .sensor setups.
I wonder if one puts the sensor on the neutral line instead of the power line than one sensor will work.
Would it be because your breakers on your 220/240v appliances tie both sides together, so if your pushing current into one side, it'll find it's way to the other side through those breakers?
@@toddschoonover5919 Not sure I understand how current could jump a 220V breaker or device especially when a device connect to it is off.
Beside the example I used above did not involve a 220V set up. Just a 120V device.
@@darylw792 Well when you plug this inverter in, it's sending current back to the panel and energizing the one bus bar of the panel (whichever side the circuit you plugged into is on). So the energy being introduced into the plug is available for anything on that side of the busbar. But I see what you mean. There really shouldn't be a way for the current introduced on one side of the panel to make it's way over to the other side of the panel. In any case, I've read elsewhere that the real issue with grid-tying is that when a large load shuts off (like a Heater, AC, Range, Dryer, etc.) the inverter will oversupply for a fraction of a second after the demand drops and before it gets the signal to throttle itself down. So there are always sporadic moments during the day where your inverter accidentally backfeeds the grid due to this delay. If you have a smart meter installed, the power company gets a notice that you're backfeeding.
@@toddschoonover5919 That was my conclusion as well. When I notice the garage door closing 400 to 500W was being used. And when the door stopped lowering and shut off I noticed a split second of negative voltage on the inverter's screen indicating feed back to the grid.
@@darylw792 Yeah that's what I keep reading also, have you heard of anyone adding capacitors to take up the overcurrent to prevent back feeding?
what city do you live in?
Technically each hot wire runs 120 thus 2 hot wires = your 240 (or220 in most us states now) and this is also the reason you need to monitor both wires. The 220 devices in your house use both hot wires to achieve this. Sorry if that is what you were trying to say it just did not sound like it so i wanted to be clear. Also a question i have, if you run you inverter into a regular house outlet shouldnt you be very aware of all the other devices on that breaker i mean a 20amp breaker is only 2400w and if you have alot of device runing and you push in 1or 2k you take a risk of fire
The inverter super cheap I would not buy one of these. According to reviews they are only 64% efficient. Growatt makes a 3kw grid tie inverter IC 3000TL-X for $400 only $20-30 more. They have a max efficiency of 97%. He needs to put a breaker in, at least a fuse.
110 and 220 Volts
2. "110 volts" and "220 volts" represent an older standard that was changed to 120 and 240 volts about 75 years ago, depending on the region. This terminology is still familiar to many people and remains in use.
@@Mike-01234 Growatt is for off grid. Not grid tie unless you have a contract. No Current transformers. I have both.
So what’s the best inverter to do this so it dose not back feed and hurt someone
Backfeed is dangerous it can cause a flash lookup phase to phase arc flash for more info
I'm running MPPSolar LV6548's that are off grid all in one solar charge controllers. While they are plugged into the grid they do not back feed any power to the grid. They use grid power to charge the batteries during extended rainy or cloudy periods. They will also bypass the solar and batteries, and power the circuits you have hooked up to them.
Aren't you plugged in from the phase converter to only 120 V??? Maybe you just put the CT donut on the wrong leg of the incoming grid power??
If this is a 240 V grid tied inverter, it's specifically says in the manual, put the CT donut on heavier drawn single phase leg.
If The Inverter Is 120 VAC, Then It Is Single Phase and Should Be Controlled By The CT (Donut), If Placed On The Same Leg That The Grid Tie Inverter Is Feeding.
get a net metering so that you can back feed
Why arrent you allowed to backfeed the grid? Everyone does here in europe. The grid is so full of solar now !
Thanks everyone for the comments and feedback. This system is still working, has been running for over 4 years now. Has generated ~4.5 mega-watt hours which is enough to hit break even after the federal tax credit. The panels were pretty cheap, ~$0.30 / watt, bought off craigslist. Panels are rated for a total of 1200 watts and generate about 700 watts max on a sunny day. They generated 4.0 kWh yesterday which was a typical hot summer day.
Thanks for the concerns that were raised in comments. I don't believe any are problems and will address them:
- Safety for line workers: This grid tie inverter is safe for the grid as was mentioned in some comments. The inverter will not deliver power to the grid if the grid goes down. See documentation for the inverter for more information.
- Are there issues monitoring current in both the live wires at the house while delivering solar power to only one? I have seen no issues. The city has not complained and I see my electrical power reported by the city going to zero on a sunny day when we are on vacation and air conditioning is not running. Our power provider provides our electricity usage in 15 minute increments which shows power going to zero at times.
Hey! Can you post what the model of that inverter you used is? The link is broken, I’m doing something similar but with a Natural gas generator and power supplies.
Yeah can you post more info about the system and what equipment models you used? Looking to do something very similar
Got the same inverter but need to run the the anti-back feed clamps to the breaker still. Won't reach ATM. Good tip on extending. Probably will once I move panels from ground to roof. Pretty sure I've backfed the grid and power co just charged like it was standard consumption since meter isnt set for net. Just installed an emporia Vue 2 which will let me see demand and production by the second. House is pretty efficient when not running AC or major appliances it just uses 150-300w on average. Got about 880 w of solar. It's a fun project.
Irregardless, you are an absolute electrical hack. This is just plain god-awful electrical workmanship. Why document this? It's just a freaking mess!
But you could kill people with this 4 year system sir but who cares right.
That inverter does indeed have island protection Idk what everyone is talking about in the comments.
Also btw I read from some guys talking about using the same set up with the CT clamps your doing.
The smart meter references from neutral, so the inverter is seeing the total house load. the power consumption on L1 & L2 is not balanced and so the neutral will cary it and the meter will read it as power being consumed thus you get charged.
Not sure if that will throw up any red flags though.
If anyone is reading this and understands what I'm talking about better can explain it please do.
Also I strongly advice some surge protection on AC side. Power going off an on just blew up my 1000w gti2
Yeah I have the same inverter and 880 watts of solar and my electric company charged me over the summer because I was probably consuming 300 watts but producing 600w. And the consumption was split across legs but the production was concentrated on one leg. So it sounds like which leg the solar is connected to matters significantly depending on appliances etc.
ZT_Performance - Not sure I understand what you are saying. Or why the inverter in the video feed power back into the grid before using a dual sensor setup. I just bought the new updated SUN 1000W inverter with limiter. This is the same inverter as shown in the video above. If one ties this inverter with it's power limiting sensor into just L1 of a dedicated breaker on the panel to only feed the accessories of the house using L1 power, how is power going to feed back into the grid on L2 to alert the power company? The inverter will produce only the power needed.
Now eventually I will get a second 1000W inverter with the limiter and use it to monitor the L2 power line.
Over the Summer I tried the 2000W 240V version of these SUN inverters with a dual sensor setup and it still feed power back into the grid and alerted the power company. I believe this occurred because the 2000W inverter distributed power equally across L1 and L2 instead of on the line that was using power. For example, L1 was using 800W for a window AC and the inverter was producing 800W, but my meters I have hooked into the system showed 400W on each line. So I assumed 400W was going back to the grid and than back into the house and getting double charged for it since the typical smart meters cannot tell which direction power is coming from. Power going out to the grid is charged on the bill the same as power coming from the grid. So I am trying a dual 1000W inverter setup.
@@darylw792 I almost purchased the 240 volt and did not for your reason. My system works *Perfect* for over 3 years with two 1000Watt with one on each leg. I live in a heavy regulated city with the smartest of smart meters and they have no clue. I never back feed, so they are good.
@@benkanobe7500 I know each inverter comes with one sensor coil for the limiter function. Do you use one sensor coil for each main line, or do you use a dual sensor coil setup for each line coming into the house main panel? A dual sensor set up would require four coil sensors. Two for each inverter.
this still requires permit from the city... just not from the power company
Sounds like where he is the city is providing the power probably a co-op power company. They don't seem to be so picky about stuff like this as long as you don't back feed. If I did that where I live my utility would report me to the city and inspector would show up fine me $500 for code violation. The other problem is if have a fire cheap inverter burns up now homeowners insurance won't pay because it was unpermitted. I put my DIY system in a shed so worst case it burns up a shed. Just reading a story over on DIY solar forum guy said his EG-4 3k inverter shorted battery cables caught fire lucky he was home put it out also it was inside a shipping container. He didn't fuse his battery at the terminal he was relying on built in breaker inside the inverter. Some reason the inverter burned up and shorted pulling more current then 4/0 AWG wire could handle. Always use a T-fuse right off the battery terminal. Another issue is if you mount panels on the roof NEC says have to install a rapid shutdown so firefighters won't get shocked by pouring water on the panels or wiring only required if it's on a roof.
Hmmm… would you be willing to be a paid advisor for my system?
Not that I care, but technically this system (even if it's not back feeding) would still require a permit in most locations.
Yolo bro, if they can't detect it, it does not exist 😎
Laws were meant to be broken. I bet you don't drive the sowed limit everywhere you go, or come to complete stops at every stop sign.
Nope. Not for the reasons you think. It is all on the owner's side of the meter and so long as you don't back feed one watt it is legal. The issue is not UL listed and so therefore could be a struggle with the insurance company if a problem
@@benkanobe7500 It's seems to be nearly impossible to never back feed though. A lot of people are saying they still back feed when a big load drops off. I wonder if anyone has tried adding capacitors to prevent/slow down the rapid change in current draw and give the processor more time to react to prevent back feeding?
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 I can monitor every 5 milliseconds and I have never seen back feeding. When my whole house A/C turns off or my microwave is when I would most likely see it and I don't. I have also had loads turn on/off while I visual check my Smart Meter and now evidence of back feeding. Just saying this is how my system is.
1/8” wire? Where is wire measured like that?
In audio, music production, etc. 1/4 " cable for my guitar into amp
@@ginavillalobos1827 I didn’t know that solar connections use audio jacks
@@pb7379-j2k NO. MC4 and wire gauge (American wire gauge depends on load) AWG. So between 8 AWG and 12 AWG
@@benkanobe7500you don’t have to tell me, I’m the one saying 1/8” is no way to gauge wire that I ever heard of
I believe the 1/8" does not refer to the wire gauge. Instead, the 1/8" refers to the size of the audio jack at the end of the wire (note his use of the phrase 'y-splitter') aka 3.5 mm jack. In other words, the current test instrument is delivering a current value to the inverter via a communication signal (extremely low amperage).
There are also meters that can be installed by the power company that prevent back feeding the grid.
Yeah. But they would rather be troublesome than helpful. Absolute savages.
In classic corporate corrupt practices these inverters are very hard to find.
Permitting by force is bad. Paying an inspector who cant force you to do xyz will result in better decision making and honesty all the way around.
Give your electrical authority a message for me. Tell em....Don't be such assholes
So that GTI does not have anti-islanding. To anyone reading this and wants to do this, get a GTI (grid-tie inverter) that has this protection. What this does, is stops delivering current when the power goes out, and also, don't generate more energy than your house uses.
That Inverter doesn't work without a live ac power connection
So basically the city dont want free energy what they can sell for money...
No, they don't want your solar frying a guy trying to fix a line while they have the power off.
Bro ...nobody can follow your wagging finger 😢😢😢 why not just make it SIMPLE , get a small sub panel & battery and move some wires to the new sub panel...
or let's say to make it simple , get a small victron charge controller to a 12 vdc battery 🔋 & inverter to power a window ac 24/7 then u can get in the game with a few used panels for under $999
This is what happens when some people end up with just enough knowledge to be dangerous.,....and very dangerous. Dude is gonna kill a lineman and serve some time.
This is the most important comment!
Your comment is not accurate. The inverter has anti-islanding, it shuts off if the power goes off.
@ginavillalobos1827 this is not the case for a hybrid inverter if the backfeeding is not turned off in the menu.
@@mikeanonymous669the inverter won't work if it doesn't have an ac power connection no matter what. So if the power is off the pv is too.
That ONLY applies to a grid tie inverter (that is working correctly). Not the same for a hybrid inverter.@@Art-uz3fk