What if Khazad-dûm (Moria) Never Fell? Theory
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2023
- The fall of Khazad-dûm was a world-changing event in the lore of Middle-earth, but what would have happened if it had not fallen? Today, we will take our best guess! Thank you all for watching, let me know how you think this would have gone in the comments below! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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“They are coming…we cannot get out “. Spoke Gimli quietly
Drums, drums in the deep.
"Did you put your name in the goblet of fire?" Dumbledore asked calmly
"It's a trap" admiral ack bar
But I was not here then said Gandalf. Never run from the threat of spears or Balrogs though I know that is easier said than done.
*Dwarves, Dwarves in the deep*
*laughing and clinking of beer mugs echoes from the well*
Fascinating tale although I think the One Ring would have turned up at some point. It wanted to make its way back to Sauron and if nothing else I think Gollum would have eventually crossed paths with one or more Dwarves.
Can't the Nazgul feel when the One Ring is used? I cannot remember if that was a contrivance of the movies or a part of the books.
We know that when Sauron started to gather his forces after returning to Mordor, Gollum, even without the ring, felt compeled to go north-east towards Moria, despite really wanting to look for Bilbo.
I suspect one of 2 things would happen: Gollum would came to contact with dwarces and the ring would be taken from him, or, more likely he would basically bring the ring straight back to Sauron.
But I'm pretty sure One Ring would turn up.
Yes, this is a point that can only be guessed at. I suspect the ring could alter Gollum in some way to put him on the path it wanted to be on, to be discovered, or otherwise betray him.
i think its inevitable that the One Ring would be found and eventually destroyed. The Ring itself would coerce events around itself to be found. The destiny of the One Ring and Sauron are bound together and would eventually be destroyed by the subtle machinations of the Light as it is in the canon timeline.
If you look at Tolkien's interviews about his work and also read them, you come to realize that Middle Earth and all of its history is dictated, it is all Eru's plan. Melkor even rebelled as he realized this was the case, and yet even his rebellion and all subsequent events were just Eru's plan anyway.
For example, had not Eru intervened in Mount Doom to give Gollum a little push so he ends up falling into the volcano shaft, it would have made it out of there either in hands of Gollum, Frodo or even Sam. No inhabitant of Middle Earth, not even the strongest and wisest, could have thrown the ring down voluntarily. All and any of them would have been mentally broken, sooner or later. Eru simply wanted to see his stage play play out as improvized as possible, even if the end result was set in stone anyway.
I don't know about that bit about Saruman still wiping out Rohan, or even going full bad guy mode in the first place. With such a strong force still able to withstand Sauron, I think Saruman's fall would've taken more time, and been less effective since the One Ring wasn't being dangled in his face. If Rohan was still established, I think they would probably be in a stronger state and still have ridden to Gondor's defense. Maybe even to the Dwarves.
The ring always wants to be found in order to return to its master. Always. It'll find, somehow, a host to leave gollum and re-appear in the Middle Earth
I would imagine the King's guard or advanced strike team would clad from head to toe in Mithril armor. If Khazadum doesn't fall, Smaug would be defeated by the dwarves faster. Less than a decade with Mithril armor and numbers from Moria. What if Durin's bane woke up in Mt. Gundabad after Smaug fell? Would the elves attack him in the North?
How would mithril armor help in killing a dragon? Smaug could only be killed by a man of great destiny destined to shoot a destined arrow destined to hit Smaug in his destined weak spot. The dwarves just would've been cooked in their mithril armor instead of being cooked not in their non-existent mithril armor.
@@pyropulseIXXI dwarves had armor that could withstand dragonfire. It was first age, but Tolkien did say they had armor strong enough during the battle of unnumbered tears. That armor style would survive in Khazadum.
@@shadowofchaos8932 You said mithril; nice goalpost shifting.
@@pyropulseIXXI if a thousand dwarves in Mithril armor and weapons would be stronger than the black arrow and offer better penetration against the dragons scales. Mithril is the strongest metal in ME.
Every dragon in the legendarium was slain by humans. So outside of that I can dig your story ❤
Thank you for all the years of great content! A bright light shinning against the horrible mess out there!
the biggest flaw i see is that by shutting kazad dum entirely, they have no sunlight. orcs could easily overwhelm any openings, and even the magic focusing crystals need actual light. they need trade as well. unless they find a really great worm recipe...
What if instead of finding the balrog they dig to deep and encounter a hoard of nameless things just because you kill a balrog dose not mean it’s the only evil
I would love a "what if" video depicting the war of dwarves and nameless things. This could be truly epic.
Yoysten, I'm looking at you buddy.
😉
@@deadbrother5355 or what if morgoth never created glaurung
@@Darkgeran7 I'm not digging that one as much. But the implications would be vast for sure.
What if they found the Original recipe of Eowyns Stew down there.?
Do what if ARNOR never fell next
There is already such a video I think
The ring had abandoned Gollum when Bilbo chanced along it. If Bilbo had not been the one, I'm sure a Goblin would have been drawn to it soon enough, I'm sure nothing would have gone wrong then.
LOVE these theoretical essays of yours. Absolutely love them. Every time, it provokes thought on my part and makes me love these stories even more. Thank you.
One of the few things I enjoyed in rings of power was seeing Khazad dum in its glory days.
Nothing would keep The One from continuing to seek its master. Even if Sauron stopped looking for it, it would seek Sauron, bending Gollum’s behaviour year after year until he was finally caught. One more thing: without the battle with the balrog, would there be a Gandalf the White? Is that something Eru would allow to *not* happen?
Concur. To add to that, I don't think Sauron could have left off searching his ring - he was an obsessive, perfectionist manipulator sort of Dark Lord if anything. He was bound to look for his greatest creation into which he had loaded so much of his power. Furthermore, his obsessive nature could not leave the nagging thought that some other with enough power would find it and try to replace him. No, I can't see Sauron leaving The Ring be.
What if the line of Kings in Gondor never ended?
Fantastic subject. Dol Guldor and Sauron would need to rise from the East and could be stopped before Rhovannin.
Boromir: "This isn't a mine. It's a 5-star hotel."
(proceeds to enjoy the fabled hospitality of the Dwarfs. Roaring fires. Malt beer. Red meat off the bone)
Its an interesting theory. However i have serious doubts Gandalf or Saruman would have left the last Dwarven ring alone. One knew it was a slow poison at their heart leading to poor decisions and the other would see it as a key bit of ring lore to study for his own works. I also really do think the One Ring would be found, because it wanted to be found and would still play a major role in the war.
Im guessing this video is due to Return to Moria? Good on you Mellon.
I can't wait to see and hear your thoughts on the game. I hope to be seeing you help make the hammers ring, in Moria, in Khazad-dûm!
Loved the content! Can you do a theory similar to this but for Gondolin! Would be interesting to see your thoughts!
Another absolute banger of a video! 🙏
Man, Mellon Khazad-Dum Slayed that and were unbeatable thoughout the rest of Arda!!!!
Thanks fot this great Theory Mellon, until what stoped Morgoth to return of Middle Earth?...Marion Baggins Out!!!
You should do What if Smeagol/Gollum was redeemed Next
Ooh, good one! It would depend greatly when. Right after the murder? Joins Bilbo, like he does with Frodo? Repents before Aragorn when captured? (Would he be able/ would offer the Ring to him?) What effect would the Ring have on him? Early, the ring has less time to corrupt. Many, many branches!
That was excellent...before I go to sleep I always think of the might and grandeur of Moria...what it looked like in the golden age....thank you
I always enjoy it when you come up with a theory 😁
Long time since a theory vid awesome work Yoystan
I love what I’f videos. I’m wondering Assuming that Khazad Dum had not fallen , what if Sauron, deeming the Dwarves unpredictable because of their greed and an annoying hindrance to his total control of Middle Earth, as his master Morgoth did thousands of years before with Gondolin, destroyed Khazad Dum and and killed and dispersed its surviving inhabitants using a traitor who let in Mordor’s host? Or what if he used a stratagem like some sort of Trojan horse?
Wow... You really put that into perspective with how so many things were put in motion due to its fall
Excellent video!
This is certainly a fascinating food for thought.
This was a really fun theory and well thought out. As a hughe dwarven fan myself, I really loved it 😊 great work 👍👍
"And they call it a mine....A MINE!"
Hmmmmmm interesting 🤔
If Khazad dum survived it would have been a game changer for sure. Makes me wonder if Gimli would have ended up there instead of Balin, mining and digging their way up the mountain range. But I think the dwarves would have eventually survived and defeated Sauron over many many years. The rest of the world would b in ruin, but they'd survive.
WHERE WAS GONDOR WHEN THE DWARROWDELF FELL
What do you think would have happened if the Rohirrim Riders saved Merry and Pippin, thus they never went to Fangorn?
Interesting theory. I always thought that if the Balrog was killed by burying it Durin the 6th saw council in Gandalf and Elrond and discovered it was a Balrog and knew it was the greed from his ring so he evacuated Khazadum and made Erebor the new kingdom of the Longbeards because he must’ve seen Khazadum as a cursed land because of the balrog. Later events go similar like the original timeline but with Erebor being taken by Smaug but instead he summoned an army of dragons friends of his and they sack both Erebor and the Iron hills and return to Khazadum and still go on the quest to reclaim with Thorin and company because now Gandalf would be doubly worried because now Sauron has his eye on a potential army of dragons to help him with his conquest of middle earth and the events of the company to similar but instead the company was just sent to retrieve the arkenstone until Olán army of dwarves came to kill Smaug and the dragons with the people of lake town and the elves of Mirkwood. However a bigger change would come in the war of the ring. With Khazadum now stronger than ever Gimili still becomes part of the fellowship since Bilbo found the ring along with the quest and Thorin, Fili, and Kili who I still believe to still be alive divide the armies of the dwarves to aid both Gondor and Rohan and then along with a contingency of elves from, Rivendell, Mirkwood, and even Lorien would likely march on the black gate calling this the final alliance of elves dwarves and men to buy Frodo time to destroy the ring bringing the fourth age to peace!
There are no more dragons as they were very rare and something of a result of twisting and warping by Morgoth. So No armies of dragons lol
@Makkaru112 true but I feel like there might’ve been a few dragons like maybe 3-4 and those numbers enough would’ve given Sauron a massive advantage in the war of the ring.
This was a very interesting twist. Like many others in the comments, I think the ring would have heard its masters call, whether abandoning gollum or somehow luring or driving him to act I am not sure. I recall that Mordor called out to all evil creatures, but how the ring could have worked on gollums mindset, I would have to doubt. Ot definitely would have attempted something, though. Anyways, that was a great topic, had me reminiscing the tale.
Great theory :)
Great video and rundown of the theory! I do however think that the One Ring might've been found. Considering that it was Gandalf who had the wisdom to take Bilbo with him on the Quest to Erebor, and that led to the finding of the Ring, it's possible that in this new timeline Gandalf would've had the same wisdom and taken Bilbo with him in the mountains for some other purpose, perhaps something related to Mirkwood itself, to help the Elves. And the end result would've been similar.
Only nine days until Return to Moria is released. I do hope that you will be playing and reviewing the game Yoystan? 😊😊😊❤❤❤😊😊😊
I've thought up a new theory..."what if Sauron had summoned Durin's Bane to Mordor?" or "What if Sauron commanded Durin's Bane and how Middle Earth would change?"
Now yes, I know Sauron would never have done so in the original timeline, Durin's Bane did the same as Shelob that being a terror and danger in mountainous regions. But i believe that in another timeline Sauron would have thought that Durin's Bane would be a great asset in his war. This would be possible without risking the loss OF Moria since there are already many Orcs IN Moria by the time Sauron openly declared himself. There is also a possible scenario of Sauron having Durin's Bane attack Lothlorien, playing on his old allegiance to Melkor and hatred of the Elves. Galadriel might even have a more difficult challenge given how the Balrog would be of equal (if not slightly greater) strength.
Sauron would need the ring first. Even with the ring, durin's bane might instead opt to try to take the ring instead of follow.
Overall, the balrog wants to avoid drawing attention from the valar, so going to be part of the mordor war machine would be counterproductive to long term survival
Love your content out of everyone who does LOTR content
Well. THAT was certainly an uplifting tale.
what if faramir and boramir both went to Rivendell
Why do i have urge to imagine dwarves some how using water and ice to subdue the balrog in thid theory
Love your content. I'm slowly making my way through it. A couple of ideas sprang to mind. "What if Bilbo didn't join Thorins company?" "What if Bilbo lost the riddle game?"
Thanks
Honestly it would've been an armor making hub.
Was it not Eru Ilúvatar who set a lot of the events in motion to destroy the one ring? My guess is that something along the lines of that still would have happened, fun to speculate
This was not only well thought out but the ending was more palpable to me. So many of the what if scenarios end in a horrible world because of the belief that only the exact story that was told could end in success or even partial success. This variant, of no definitive end/success for either side, seems far for probable.
It makes me think of Eru telling Morgoth that his evil actions would lead to even greater good happening in the future. Without the tragedy of Moria (according to this theory) the victories as seen in LotR would not have happened, or at least would not have been as complete.
Basically, the Middle Earth version of the Cold War. or perhaps a war of shadows. who will find the ring first? or will it ever be found?
Great Video !
What if Melkor returned during the third age? The obvious answer would be he and sauron would dominate all of middle earth but would they? Maybe the Valar would lend aid to the free people in some equal measure to ensure Melkor would once and for all perish forever in the war of the ring. You could have characters like gandalf or Aragorn fighting the forces of melkor. Frodos quest would be even more perilous. Could be an interesting fan fiction.
Dagor Dagorath hastened into an earlier age and then the second to third song of the Ainur commences
That dwarf's hands are farther forward than his head would suggest while holding that hammer.
I just saw the entire segment, and have to say, harsh judging on the men(!!), have to insist fall of Minas Tirith would in no way been that sudden or easy. Roman's fate depends a lot on Sarumans mindset. I know that our heroes would be on different paths, folly to assume they would be idle, especially upon realizing they were on there on, could not rely on the dwarves. One thing I would suspect, is that Aragorn and his rangers, stronger in this story, would have dealt with the pirates, even without the ghosts of the paths, and as well, may have made the difference in Rohan, that Gandalf, though still the Grey, would be free to assist. Again, I am not sure about this, but I believe Aragorn had reason there, having fought with the corsair in this youth. Let me know if that is correct. Thanks for sending me on this thoughttrain, great show
I like this theory...except for one minor detail. That would be the day the king in Moria orders the gates sealed...perhaps permanently?? That would be when the dwarf nerd serving as his chief advisor would step forward. "A word, your grace?" he asked in a nasal tone. The king replied "What is it, Thorin Poindexter?" "Well my liege I can understand your wish to protect your people by sealing the gates...but...please forgive me, liege...have you considered...exactly what shall we eat?"
A very interesting and compelling terrific alternate history as totally agree without the Balrog escalating its lair, then the dwarves in Moria would have gone from strength to strength and played a major military role as a member of the free people’s going forward during the rest of the third age.
If the dwarves shut themselves off completely, where would they get food?
Plump helmets, of course. Food and drink
@@lomiification But where would they source it?
I'd like to see anything on forlong, angbor, anborn, mablung and hurin the tall. The lesser known named characters 😊
I've always wondered why the dwarves didn't make weapons out of mithril. Surely if the windlances of Dale were tipped with mithril, they would have pierced the scales of Smaug easily...
Maybe, after milennia, the dwarves would dig their way all the way to Gollum
And they call it a mine ! A mine ! Ha .
I never realized it was in the 1980s. Perhaps they fell to OrcSoc...
I imagine that Francesco Cavalieri would be one of the leaders of the charge.
You seem to forget that the Lord of All would not allow such a travesty of victory to the evils of the world come to pass, just as he didn't last time a great evil truly arose.
So ... Dwarfs lock themselves in and ... LoTR turns to Warhammer. Haha.
One interesting question is: "what would happen to The Ring when Gollum died".
Out of pocket question here so I apologize, but after Smaug Sacked Erebor. Why didn’t the dwarves who escaped the mountain go to the iron hills?
Since the dwarves have a naturally closed social structure and the fact that the alienation between races seen in general mythology increases over time, I think that if Khazad-dûm had not fallen, the dwarves would have remained indifferent to the developments in Middle-earth and would not have been involved.
What if the 7 father's of the dwarf's awakend in Mount cundabad
We need a whole video on the Father’s Awakenings in general.
Yes
How's Return to Moria. I really want to play it
I like how you didn't negate the Dwarves good fortunate and increased military strength with an alternative chain of custody of the ring. There is always the temptation to suppose that the only way for the good guys to win was the way it actually when down. That kind of predeterminism negates the free will that Tolkien believed in. It's also no fun.
Maybe the Goblins do find Gollum and get the ring, but they must pass near elven lands to deliver it to Mordor. By then the Goblin King thinks he's the new Sauron. The ring gets slippery like an American football on a wet muddy field. Finally, Gandalf convinces the Elrond and the Council to get some Hobbits to carry the ring behind a phalanx of crack Dwarven miners who open a new pass into Mordor and create an inconvenient avalanche on the Black Gate. Pippin can't will himself to pitch the ring into the fire so he let's Sam take it and he pitches into the lava because he's Sam and just doesn't like the ring. The more it lies to him then more determined he gets to 'kill it". The ring senses its impending doom and results to sarcasm. Not as good as JRR, but it would be good in a video game.
An Ultimate stalemate
Moria was such a good part of the LOTR movie; orcs, trolls, balrog. Sad but glad Moria was the way it was.
How to the grow things without sunlight? 🤷🏼♂️
But woven through all of this is the Music. ALL things redound to the Glory of Iluvatar. It was fated in the Music for the Elves and Dwarves and such to Fade and for Men to rule. The One WOULD have been found. The Quest WOULD have been taken. Iluvatar would not have fated Arda to end that way, with Sauron dominant. All that had been lost would have been regained, but different. As Frodo and the others became changed in their journey.
Absolutely love this. ❤
So, not a great outcome, but not utterly hopeless either.
Without the war of the dwarves and dragons in the grey mountains, there would be no Rohan
Do you think a dwarf of khazad dum would find this fate preferable to the canon timeline?
😍😍😍👌
You forgot to say the ring has a will of it's own
somthing and it would have done
Great as always. Check your FB inbox.😉
👍👍
Rock n Stone
What if Deagol slayed Smeagol?
Khazad-dum would probably not last a year if besieged by Sauron. Orc engineers and miners would dig invasion tunnels into the mountain.
If Khazad-dûm never fell, wouldn't the Dwarfs of Middle-earth be much stronger in other holds as well? As with many of these what-if videos, it probably would still end in the inevitable destruction of the free peoples of Middle-earth, but I wonder if other dwarfs might have slowed that destruction, maybe even turned the tides at times?
Did I hear a rock and stone?
You also never get Gandalf the White.
The real best timeline. Til you run out of Mithril, anyway.
There’s no doubt in my mind that if this mighty kingdom stood, the dark lord would never have been able to return. Crazy that what doomed the free peoples of middle earth was… greed. Just greed.
.... if it never fell, I Guess we in the group could help?
I eat Balrogs for breakfast :)
If Moria never fell, then Gandalf never fought the Balrog, which means he didn't level up, so he wasn't powerful enough to cast out Wormtongue or ward away the Nazgûl at the battle of Minas Tirith.
What if denethor the 2 died with his wife finduilas on the same day
What if Rings of Power never existed?
Thorin, Fili, and Kili would be alive and well.
What if Saruman never joined Sauron. 😊😊
Beautiful video my friend
What if ,what if . What if Saruman developed nuclear weapons ?
WHAT BOOK DO'S TOLKIEN WRITE THAT ARDA-EARTH IS ROUND INSTEAD OF FLAT
So you modified the First Age to entirely erase the War of the Ring. How unfortunate for people who love The Lord of the Rings and The Return of the King