It's interesting how you mentioned the artbook and mementos report but didn't mention Maniax from 2016 where devs directly said 'He is another “chosen one” who received the same Wildcard ability as MC'
Honestly I learned the existense of Maniax User Handbook after making the video. I assume you got the quote from here blog.kouhi.me/spoilers-persona-5-maniacus-party-members/ . Do you happen to know what the Japanese line this is translate from? I'd like to make sure.
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy 主人公と同じワイルドの能力を授かった。shujinko to onaji wairudo... even with my limited Japanese i can tell it means "the same wild /something/" the translator isn't an Akechi fan they even never translated Akechi's OA confidant but that makes them more trustable for me even though I'm also a Goro fan I know that some are prone to twisting the truth to fit their narrative. Also funny that in the same paragraph devs pointed out that he doesn't deny taking a liking to Joker. Hilarious that jp fans had 2 of most debated topics regarding Goro explained on a plate since 2016!
@@gegek3955 Oh no, I'm not really looking out for Akechi fans putting their spin on the translation. Translation includes translator interpetration anyway. Thank you for sharing, and I hope more people can see this comment, so let me pin it!
For the reason that akechi doesn't have the ability to access any more personas than his 2, i think it's because he doesnt have any bonds like joker does. In persona 4, adachi was given the same power as yu, but it's mentioned that he doesnt have yu's full power because he was isolated from other people. So, if we say the same for akechi, this explains why he only has 2. Even the people like sae who take an interest in him never really get to know him truly so he can't have true bonds with them like joker does, and therefore can't summon personas of different arcanas (representing other people's ideas)
Honestly, Akechi's being able to have two without having a contract with the Velvet Room is already amazing. Not many can do that. About the bond part, I might lack research, but from what I know, no one is able to start a confidant rank without the initial guidance from the velvet room. If anyone can point me to information stating otherwise, feel free to do so as it'll help me in the future video.
I mean I’m also sure it’s because he doesn’t have access to fusion (except his 3rd evolution, but this event is triggered by Joker’s involvement) and the contracting other personas seems to be Joker’s unique wild card ability. I’m only including P5 and P5R knowledge. Him saying his power isn’t like Joker’s could also refer to their unique powers, like he could cause mental shutdowns and make people become psychotic. Which is gifted to him by the god of control as he is the god of control’s chosen Trickster.
@@patrickkirchner2254 my favorite Loki related story will forever be the mistletoe ngl. As a kid I was like "he really went out of his way here for no good reason 😩"
I believe at the end of the day, Robin Hood was supposed to be the representation of his public self, the "Ace Detective" whereas, Loki was the embodiment of his true self, a liar, traitor, and a trickster. These two personas were born from his hate and need for revenge. It had been stated by Lavenza in the games that because he could not form any bonds with others, a lock was put on his heart
I thought it was pretty obvious that Akechi was a Wild Card but kept from his potential by Yaldaboth. He was locked out of the Velvet Room and was unable to utilize the tools he had. Even if he did form bonds early on, it wouldn't have helped him so he probably saw no use for it. (He had been using his powers for 2 years by the time we started our journey). However, I disagree about his persona's being fake. I'm pretty sure it mentions multiple times in Persona 5 that the persona is a person's "true" self. And that is represented by having to brutally rip the mask you wear to society off your face to summon it for the first time. On the other hand, I don't believe Futaba is correct either. I think that Robin Hood is a representation of Akechi wanting to strive for justice, by his own morals. (People often forget that Robin Hood was an outlaw. A common man and thief who stole and killed. Just because he had morals doesn't make him a paragon). Loki would then represent his trickery. There is many MANY scholarly debate about Loki (no one has been able to pin down what he is even the God of since there aren't any record of how he was worshipped) but he is commonly referred to as the TRICKSTER God. Loki would give him the strength to trick and fool those in power and still come out on top in the end. (As his Norse myths suggest) Obviously I'm a huge fan of Goro Akechi. I have a lot of thoughts on him so thanks for doing this video!
Loki also, in mythology, can be interpreted as getting justice for his children, who were imprisoned due to the Raganrok prophesy, as they had YET to do anything but be born. A pretty strong nod to Akechi's status as a bastard and being punished simply for existing.
@IceQueen975 YES!! I love that interpretation of Loki as justice!!! I, personally, (because of OverlySarcasticProductions) love the idea of Loki being the God and protector of the hearth, home, and family. It really brings Akechi into perspective that way.
Sorry to be that guy but Robin Hood is a nobleman who was against the unjust treatment and harsh taxes against the common folk. Sure I'll admit there has been versions he's a common man but in most he's from noble birth.
@FireRogueWolf25 there are actually no cemented versions of Robin Hood. In some he is presented as noble, but there is no definitive version. Most like the noble angle since it makes him more compelling, but in the 14th-15th century in the earliest written historical text involving Robin Hood, he was a servant
My personal theory has always been Akechi had the wild card, but always killed all of the shadows instead of negotiating with them, so he only had his two original personas.
this is what i always thought. i mean, he's already strong enough and has 2 very powerful personas. he can take down shadows by himself, he doesn't need more of them. he's also a crazy bastard, so i don't think he ever even tried to talk to the shadows. far as he's concerned, they aren't real people just thoughts.
The way I always thought about it is that Akechi is the fool arcana of his own journey and Joker represents the justice arcana for him. In Persona 4, Loki was of the fool arcana, so that could suggest that it's Akechi's original persona. Robin Hood would then be born from his social link with Joker, the justice arcana. As for his link with Sae, it could be possible that Akechi didn't like her, but there's not really much to support that idea.
I agree with this theory, especially because in Vanilla P5, I recall Morgana in “conversation” with Joker mentioning that Joker did not start the bond himself. Which implied Akechi chose to start the bond. That’s been removed in Royal since they didn’t auto-progress Akechi like they did in Vanilla but to me that line spoke a lot about their relationship with each other. As for why he didn’t form a bond with Sae or Shido or anyone like that I don’t think it’s because he didn’t like Sae (he obviously hated Shido, so that one I can say for sure was because he didn’t like him), but to me he was actively not interested/choosing not to form bonds with others due to the plans he set in motion. He’s the son of a prostitute, who killed herself and was unwanted by his father and by the time we meet him, he’s the “Detective Prince”. I can understand him wanting to keep his walls up, especially around the people he’s choosing to work with to ensure they all believe he’s on their side. Especially since he was in the heart of the hornets nest with all of Shido’s secrets, while trying to keep Shido from learning who he truly was or he would have easily seen his true intentions before even meeting the players. I think Joker just intrigued him enough to get him to drop that guard because of how similar they are supposed to be, so he chose to start a bond with him and learn more, originally because of the intrigue and even “distance” he likely believed the students had from what was really being plotted by Shido, and later it helped when he learned their true identities for the betrayal.
My theory had always been that Akechi's 3rd tier persona in Royal, Hereward, was his true persona all along. You mentioned in the video that P-Studio confirmed that both Robin Hood and Loki are aspects of Akechi. But what I always found so interesting about that Q&A was how its wording implies that he may have awakened to both Robin Hood and Loki at the same time. But if Hereward is his true persona, why did he split into Robin Hood and Loki? I don't know the concrete answer to that, but I think it may have been the result of either his upbringing, interference from Yaldabaoth, or perhaps a bit of both. Whatever it was, it may be similar to Yaldy forcibly splitting Lavenza apart into the twins, and the two of them thus forgetting what the true purpose of rehabilitation is. It's almost like a distortion in how Akechi chooses to understand his own will of rebellion, which could explain why he was stuck with two personas. And it probably would remain that way until he figured out how to remove that distortion without tools from the Velvet Room. What I love most about this theory is how it potentially provides a more detailed explanation as to how Akechi, as a Wild Card, can become stuck with two personas. Similar to the twins' situation, both Robin Hood and Loki represent different parts of Akechi's will of rebellion, but when they're apart, they seem like total opposites. One desperately seeks praise and acceptance from others by being percieved as a hero of justice under societal standards. The other seeks freedom to the point of selfishly pursuing revenge without regard for the chaos it may leave behind. But when they fuse to become Hereward at the end of Royal, it brings both extremes to a middle ground that perfectly balances aspects of both. If Hereward was Akechi's true persona, he is honestly such a perfect fit for this theory. Hereward was said to have possibly been the real world inspiration behind the tales of Robin Hood, but he was also an exile who was both motivated by revenge against Norman conquerors for the death of his brother, and is also remembered as a legendary hero who rebelled for the freedom of his countrymen. His bond with Joker still plays a huge part in this of course, since it goes to show how important the 2/2 event is to Akechi for it to be the catalyst that finally brought his personas together. I also like to think that he unlocked his wild card potential after the fact. Unfortunately, there just wasn't much time nor opportunity for him or the other thieves to even realize that, since the final Maruki boss is the only time Hereward could even be used.
I've always felt Robin Hood and Loki are the Justice arcana upright and reversed. Both stand for justice within their story/mythological context, but while Robin Hood restricted his justice to the rich to help the poor, Loki wants punishment and vengeance. Remember, Akechi is *15* when he awaken s to his Persona. With how he was passed around in the system yet canotically loved a show like Featherman, it's easy to see how he'd be split; angry angry ANGRY at being punished just because he was born out of wedlock yet still having that childish wish for things to go right and justice to prevail like in the Featherman show. In the TV studion interview, Akechi jokes he likes to think Santa Claus was real... but keep in mind, the signiture of a great lie is to let it hold a grain of truth. The Santa remark can easily be the truth; that there's still a part of Akechi that holds on that justice really will prevail, somehow.
@@JKCrafted I forgot to mention his costumes but yes, this as well. I wonder tho if that means he should've had a 3rd outift that combines the first two? Cuz it's interesting then that it doesn't. It could easily be explained as Atlus understandably not going out of their way to make a new Akechi model and sprites for one boss fight. Or maybe it implies that his tranformation isn't fully completed yet. ...It's highly unlikely that Atlus would go this direction but, Akechi's arc in Royal honestly stops at a perfect place to be picked up again with him as the protag for P6. It would honestly be really cool for P6 to have story elements that make it feel like a direct sequel to P5. Focusing on a slightly older college-age cast would also be a break in the trend that I'd gladly welcome.
That bit about "Yaldy splitting Hereward" is honestly a rad concept... Especially when you remember Joker and Arséne too. Because Arséne is Joker's persona born from his own heart, and almost *immediately* after his awakening, Yaldy has Joker sacrifice him to make a new persona. One *not* born from his heart. Yaldy intentionally "killed off" a part of Joker, that doesn't canonically come back *until* he's awakening Satanael. So Yaldy doing something similar to mess with Akechi makes a lot of sense *and* adds another example to the "two sides same coin" thing he and Joker have going on
finally actual interesting discussion about akechi's character with the rare no bias........ looking forward to more! akechi's one of the deepest persona characters with many facets to him and im glad people are recognizing that without getting all silly over whether they like him or not
I think your analysis was really interesting I just wanted to add that joker technically also never signed the contract with Igor, since that happened while yaldabaoth was in control (which can also imply that he gave some form of contract to akechi, since they both were his “players”) Great video, keep it up!
Very true, and on top of that, I really want them to expand more on the lore and features of making a contract as well. It mentions in the P3 if I remember correctly that it holds the user liable for their action, but if you ever choose a bad ending on purpose in some of the game, there seems to be no repercussion. I'll give Yalda's bad ending a free pass because Yalda is the one asking for the contract, but with stuff like Maruki's ending (P5R) and not being able to find out the truth in P4G, maybe something should happen? Right now, it's kind of like a gym ticket to use the VetVet Room feature.
My theory about personas is that everyone is able to become a wild card, but every wild card needs to be a fool. We saw people switch personas, arcanas or just evolve their personas, so we know personas can change as long as the user changes. But most people are bound by their arcana, their personality, trying to better themselves without losing what makes them what they are (represented by a persona's final form). One must be a fool to follow a new path, to discard everything just so they could see it from a different view, to see *the world* on it's entirety. Everyone "can" be a fool but only some will actually choose to. Now Akechi would be something I would call a "fake" fool, he tried to throw away his path (arcana) but all he could do was fool himself into thinking he did. Awakening to two personas but still both of them being from the justice arcana. Even more so loki being the embodiment of his fakeness, summoning a "fool" persona just to fool himself, representing how he thinks he is walking two different paths but in actuality they are just the same wicked justice.
I would go so far as to say you don't need a Fool to be a Wild Card if the Boss of the Velvet Room is around The One and only Philemon (not Igor he is just the manager)
Pretty sure all Velvet Room attendants can use multiple personas. It’s not just Elizabeth. Elizabeth is the only one that changes arcana to fool because she goes on a journey to save the MC from P3. It’s why she is a former attendant.
I would like to say in reference to persona q the way that the suppression of the wild card is worded implies that something is suppressing the wild cards but since there's more than one of them their powers combined and gave everyone a fraction of the wild cards power. The presence of multiple wild cards is not considered a factor towards them being weakened
Maybe "alter" are the more fitting word, it hard to say if letting everyone equipping sub persona is stronger or weaker than able to summon entire compendium. Nonetheless it does not effect the theory but thank for elaborating!
Now that i think about it i thinks its possible for someone can awaken to more than one persona at the start if you look back at P3 the MC awoke Orpheus and then Thanatos appeared due the connection with death and its implied that the Thanatos that Elizabeth has is the MC's so its not to much of a stretch
Futaba's line always confused me because she said he might be a wild card but he's also using Loki who can just shape shift into Robin Hood so like is he really?
Hai, Chie, thank you for always leaving a comment on my video. So it's all speculation since there is no confirmation from the developers as far as I know, but Loki can shapeshift in some SMT games and in Norse mythology. However, with the design of it in Persona 5, as mentioned in the video, it might indicate that it can't do that and is only able to make people misjudge it. (While he can't become someone else, he is able to have a poor judgment of who he is.) But both are speculation, so it's up to what you want to believe.
i'd love to hear what you think of the two cents i have got for you! i feel like something goes severely unnoticed - probably because of how cinematic and dramatic it looks but Akechi changing outfits mid battle during Shido's palace is no Wildcard feat. it's no one's feat or feature, besides his own. it's safe to assume that something entirely new is happening the only special thing about the wildcards realistically is - having access to diving into the sea of souls and obtaining pre-existing personas, non-unique to a person from p5 on out, Loki became Akechi's persona and inaccessible to fuse which means Loki isn't a part of the sea of souls anymore and is in fact a unique to a person persona i believe in two things 1) it isn't important to debate whether he is a wildcard because he stands out equally as unique among wildcards and persona users simply because of the fact that he changed metaverse outfits 2) Robin Hood and Loki to be just one persona, except they can, at akechi's will be reversed - arcana-wise! Robin Hood and Loki both pertain to the Justice Arcana their affinities/resistances interchange upon swap - as though one is upside down - one is weak to curse while blocking bless, the other is weak to bless while blocking curse everyone stays in one outfit throughout - and the reason for that continuity is, i believe, because they traverse the path of their predisposed upright arcana each arcana pertains to a fixated destiny, and on the way of realising said destiny we encounter hardship the mask/persona manifests a form, apt to the wearer's means through which they choose to face hardship in order to fulfill their destiny (aka, a person would have a vision of what they would like to realise in their life and the way the persona/mask ends up looking takes the appearance of what one believes will be a sufficient enough front to carry them to their goal) - whether it'd be threading the path of an arcana's 'upright' or 'reversed' - Akechi had founded a role for both, yet unlike a Fool, all pertain to his one singular destiny of Justice - i mean, at least on a meta level, he envies Joker for exactly this reason - his freedom reminds him of his inability to escape Justice's fate. he cannot stop himself from masquerading, he cannot accept himself for who he is whilst also seeking that acceptance from others nor can he let go of what has controlled him for the majority of his life - his unparalleled hatred for Shido. Akechi was truly powerless, and so were all the people around him who tried to save him
Hello, thank you for the thoughtful and concise comment, but like I mentioned before, I am not up to a full back-and-forth discussion on a TH-cam comment section. It's just not the best place for it. But I'll do my best to respond to your two main points, though it won't be on the same level as yours and I won't cover the entire post. 1) I agree that it isn't important to debate whether there is a wild card or not; however, I also believe that something does not have to be important or beneficial in order to start a discussion or even start doing the activity. I don't need a real reason to want to spin my pencil for fun; it does not have to be meaningful, and it does not have to improve my health. I can do it because I want to. ( I mentioned before that a lot of the theories are a form of entertainment for me; in fact, I enjoy the constructive discussion people like you bring to me. The actual truth is secondary to me. 2) You are talking about the reverse card theory, which I mention briefly at the end of the video, but I can't cover it because the video is already too long. While I have read a couple of articles about it already. I think I will refrain from adding to it for now, as I need more research. However, it is great that you bring it up in such a well written format so I can include it in the video when I finally have time to get to it. The interesting part about Persona's reverse card theory is that it is not the same as the tarot's interpretation of it, even though they are similar. The tarot meaning of the reverse card is that while it might just look like the opposite of its upright form, it actually shows a lack of energy in the original form, or a weaker version of the card. For example, the Queen of Cups signifies strong intuition as well as emotional security. The queen of cups reversed, then, could signal an obstruction in intuitive abilities and emotional insecurity that comes from lacking the original trait and not the strength from the opposite force. However, when it comes to Persona reverse cards, which are more commonly called Reverse Persona, they take it as the exact opposite. Again, I'm sorry I won't be able to continue as there is just so much to talk about, and doing it in a TH-cam comment is just a horrible idea. Thank you for writing, and please stay awesome.
Thanks for not squeezing everything in one video. Lore/theory heavy videos that are extremely long, are hard to skip to where the viewer left off, if they lack the irl time to get through everything at once. This is especially a problem at times TH-cam forgets where you left off on a video last time. I have this issue with watching stream VODs sometimes. So the fact you broke this video into pieces, makes it easier for me to find out the rest of what you were talking about after finishing this segment. As tomorrow I have time I need to spend with my brother for his birthday. And need to be prepared, which may or may not give me time to finish all this tonight.
That one insane theory off the pseudo wildcard reminds me of a particular wish I had for Persona 6 Basically, I've always liked Persona 3's aproach at persona evolution, having it relate yo how the characters react to moments related to them in the story, giving them the chance to have more plot relevance. But it is very nice to see your partners get new Personas from reaching level ten. So I thought, how about they got a second persona? One with maybe different affinities and kits, that gave those characters different use and referenced the struggles they went through in their social link with the main character
7:00 i also wanted add how if you don't finish Maruki's arcana you don't get third semester and automatically go into the dream. Ive noticed that his is a common feature, for example in the original P5 if you didn't max out arcana that aren't the main group/story driven, they don't see the merge of mementos and the real world. Yet they do if you max them out. That's why everyone who isn't joker didn't notice anything at first, because no one forged a bond with Maruki like joker. Plus I'm almost certain Akechi's never seen Maruki a day in his life before third semester so of course he's going to be affected at first.
A better retcon for me if Akechi would be a forced Shadow User by Yaldaboath instead of a WildCard Persona User. Maybe even apply the Pirates of the Carribean's Davy Jones' logic of "Part of the Ship, Part of the Crew." To give a way for Akechi to be able to gain other Shadows within Shido's palace.
Akechi is a wild card that doesn't have friends the only bond he has is with Joker which is why he is able to snag another persona that is able to "fool us" later in the game. Robinhood is the best side of Akechi but Akechi has already has accepted his darkside which is Loki. It also wouldn't surprise me that yaldaboath rigged the game against Akechi too
one thing i feel like is often misunderstood when it comes to figuring out the wild card is that the initial persona and ultimate persona of a non-wild cards are still different personas. as in, captain kidd doesn't _become_ seiten taisei, seiten taisei is a _new_ persona born from ryuji growing past beyond what kidd can alone represent. similarly, william isn't kidd and seiten taisei literally combining into a single entity, but ryuji reconciling the disparate parts of the two to form a more complete picture of himself this is why the investigation team summon their base personas in p4a - because they can just _do_ that. the parts of them that those personas represent are still floating around in their head, after all. the inability to use your party members' previous personas in the mainline games mostly just comes down to their personas being mechanically designed as linear increases in strength, so ... there's not exactly any reason for you to set ryuji back to kidd once he's awakened to his other personas in my mind, what the wild card truly grants when it comes to wielding multiple personas is the ease at which they're developed. persona 1 and 2 are always finnicky to consider, but even if the entire cast had access to the velvet room for developing personas beyond their first, that's also the _only_ way for them to do it. and the affinity system meant no one character could actually make use of every persona available to them, so i don't think any of them can be counted as wild cards. meanwhile, the first confirmed wild card slinks around tartarus for a bit, smacks some masked blobs around, and spontaneously has a fairy lady floating around in his head. even if a wild card _didn't_ have access to the velvet room, they'd likely still end up with quite the stock of personas in a short span of time - provided their heart is open enough to accept the differing perspectives that those personas are birthed from, unlike a certain slacker detective so, akechi's dual personas don't necessarily mean anything towards him having the wild card, they just reflect ... his dual personas. his nature is split between such extremes that a single persona isn't capable of representing it, so his persona ability drew out two personas without the typical preceding step of growing past the initial persona. chances are that such a thing, while definitely uncommon, probably ain't all that unique in the grand scheme of things, because there are a _lot_ of two-faced people in the world, and you can't always pull a rise and reconcile both faces into a single whole without losing something in the process. hell, even rise might not have completely managed it; himiko reveals a second form in p4au when rise can no longer rely on her friends to fight for her, so perhaps all her disparate selves don't all cleanly into her support mode. clearly, they come together better than robin hood and loki do, but when the manifestation of your acceptance of all of your faces suddenly takes on a previously unbeknownst face, well ... also, i'd like to bring up the idea that fool loki and justice loki aren't the same persona. i mean, they're spawned in entirely different mindscapes by people with entirely different personalities, so it'd be p. wild for their constituent parts to be exactly the same. there's a reason why, despite the _incredible_ array of personas each wild card has access to, the unique personas of their friends and other persona users? yeah, those are _at best_ locked behind bonus dlc. even if a wild card can use the experiences they share with others to manifest new facets of themselves with extreme ease, they can't truly mirror the people they're drawing from. experiences shared with others, after all, are still distinct from what those others experienced in the moment - not to mention everything else they've experienced without you. so not only is akechi's loki different from the loki that the protags can manifest in 3 and 4, but the loki those protags manifest would be distinct from another, too. likely far less distinct than the difference between them and akechi's loki, but the life experiences that those two compile into loki are _very_ different, so it'd only be natural for the results to be distinct entities that just so happen to be taking on the same archetype besides, many mythological figures are complex individuals themselves, displaying and nurturing a variety of personas throughout their mythos. even if the loki in 3 and 4 _are_ the same loki, that doesn't mean that there's only one loki to be drawn from the sea of souls. it could very well be that just as we as players hadn't seen that form of loki until akechi's reveal, then neither had the major powers in the persona universe witnessed the manifestation of that loki in a long, long while
For the bonds being required to use more persona explanation, I think the game didn’t justify it well as Joker can fuse and use Personas from Arcanas that he hasn’t unlocked the confidant for yet
Akechi is not a wild Card user, he is a different thing, and I can explain it. As you said, persona original meaning is mask, but the complete meaning refers to a mask used by an actor to make his voice reach the crowd. The way wild cards work is by basing their ability in the statement that people have different personalities (masks) that show to different people and in different situations, that’s what a wild card bases it’s power off, this can be supported by the fact that it’s easier to create deeper bonds with the arcana confidants if you have a persona of their same arcana, and that’s because you change your personality (mask) to be able to get closer to they. But, Akechi instead uses the theory of psychoanalysis created by Freud to show his personas (masks). The theory states that there are 3 layers of each individual: 1.-The Ego (the person): the rational part that adjust itself by taking in consideration the other 2 inner you and the social/legal rules of the society. This is the mask everyone shows to most people and in Akechi’s case is represented by a detective who is also a celebrity of a TV show and plays by the rules of society 2.-The Super Ego (the angel): this is the nexus between the Ego and the most pure you, the Super Ego creates your Ego based on your purest self and the morals you learn, yet, it also represents things that you crave and constantly search for in order to feel full filled as an individual and give some small hints to your true nature, Akechi represents it as a literal white prince who fights for justice and craves everybody’s attention (that desire is represented as robin hood) but its true self shows a bit from time to time in this form 3.-The Id (the devil): the purest you and also the most twisted you, it wants to full fill it’s most selfish and purest desires and needs by any mean, no matter what, it’s considered the reverse to the super ego and needs to be suppressed by it using the morals and consciousness and as a result of their interaction creates the Ego, in Akechi’s case is represented as the black mask, a being that is the contrary of the white prince and does anything to get the attention he craves, the attention he needs, it’s represented by Loki because the aesir god was usually related to mischief changing his shape and attitude constantly (this represents the connection between Ego and SuperEgo and why Akechi can change masks and his whole aspect) This also represents a criticism to society, and even Akechi asks you about the topic, and it’s what do you think that society really likes about the phantom thieves facing Medjed, and when you answer that the society finds it entertaining he says that it’s always the same, at the end it’s not about if it’s correct or not, but rather if society accepts it or craves it, society likes the entertainment and will always want to be on the winning side, Akechi knows that, and Yaldabaoth knows it too, that’s the whole point of persona 5, see if finally someone, a trickster can change the society’s hearts and minds, and see if they finally start thinking by themselves and what is correct, not what they desire. All of that makes me think that Akechi’s ability is nothing like a wild card, but a different ability created by Yaldabaoth based in the way it believed humankind behave and was really inside (Sorry if my English it’s a bit crappy, its not my main language, anyways, hope you read what I think and give me your opinions)
Your English is fine, and I thought the whole thing was pretty well written. It's also well constructed and follows the abduction logic, and I'm glad to see more people construct and present their thoughts in this way. So to answer your request for my opinion, I've got to let you know that I don't really engage in a deep conversation in my TH-cam comments; it's just really not a good place for it. So I hope you can forgive me for not responding to your post at the same level you are putting in. The only thing I got to say again, apart from praising that it is well written, is that at the end of the day it is still an abduction. Which means you put the points that you think make sense together to reach your conclusion, and there is no way to prove these points. For example, in my video, I mention that there are many interpretations of what a wildcard is, but for me, I'll try to get the information from the game script. On the other hand, you added a lot of your own beliefs. Now there's no way we can prove that either my interpretation is right or yours is. Unless maybe we fly to ask the director and force it out of him, if one of our interpretations is incorrect, the entire theory and structure are significantly weaker. I said I was not going to write long, lol. My main point is that I don't care that much about the actual answer when it comes to video game theory. I just love hearing a well-constructed argument being shared, and you definitely are doing that. So thank you for posting, and please continue to be awesome.
In persona Q, the area is a limited plane of existence which counteracts the fools limitless potential. The existence of even amounts of wildcards creates a boon which gives everyone a shard of the fool.
Any source to the actual time this is explained? Id love to read the actual script. Also if what you are saying is true it would concidered a down grade right? As in it make something limitless become limited.
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy this is explained in persona Q around the time you get the other team in which the attendant explains that the other wildcards presence has allowed the boon to happen. I believe it also may have been mentioned a little bit before that as well.
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy Yes it can be considered a downgrade however the downgrade was still cancelled as the limited potential changed itself to still benefit in the limited area.
I have a theory that I think makes sense In the first 3 persona games 1 and 2 (innocent sin eternal punishment) all the charcters could use multiple personas and the one who gave charcters the potential was philemon and he is characterised by a butterfly later on philemon becomes weakened and can't give as much potential to every persona summoner leading to igor becoming the master of the velvet room Now every incarnation of the wild card after p2 sees a butterfly (aka philemon) before they awaken and I think by every new persona game philemon recovers more of his power leading to him being able to distribute more potential for persona users Now in p5 the butterfly turn in Lavenza so that butterfly can't be the same as philemon is an argument I will hear which could mean 2 things 1: each velvet room attendant after the events of persona 2 is a part of philemon 2: Lavenza is an avatar of philemon but she doesn't relize it which could explain why she is the only velvet room attendant which is a kid representing that philemon is regaining his power to the point of making an avatar a small at that ( if it isn't obvious I believe in no 2 more)
Interesting, so it is possible that I brought Philemon to my room. Joking aside, I feel like you have an excellent foundation for a very interesting theory. If you could find more links or other points that support the idea, this could be an amazing theory.
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy Edit: I left out lots of useless talk Here is a summary every theory you have about the wild card can probably be traced back to Philemon according to the wiki and me playing p2 i.s and e.p aka the facts Philemon is a being of the cognitive of all humans he wears a mask resembling a butterfly if the mask is taken off the one who witnesses his face will see their own and he says "I am Philemon, a dweller in the rift between consciousness and unconsciousness of all souls... I am you. You are me... I shall always watch over you from within. Farewell." He gives the velvet room key to the charcters in p1 and 2 to access the services there And gives every persona user the power to summon personas multiple in 1 and 2 He appears before every wild card user after that in the form of a butter fly before they awaken Philemon can create multiple universes as spoilers after the world ends after the events of innocent sin he creates another at a cost of making the heroes forget each other He also can be evil making a bet with nyarlthotep at the cost of the world which leads to the events of p2 Theory time He gives the ones with enough will power (that is my theory anyway) the power of the wild card and others with a strong will power a weakened version of it for instance akechi since he appears before the events of pq 1 and 2 and can create multiple universes this can mean he created a kind of mini universe for the events of both games to happen reason being unknown and could explain why the portags can only use 2 personas at a time since he has exhausted all of his power making the universe He also could create all alternate universes for the games (female portag p3 and all the bad endings) A tin foil hat level theory Bec he can be evil this could mean that an avatar of his power can be evil which (and I am gonna say this again this is tin foil hat level) could mean an avatar of his became strong enough and evil enough to defy Philemon good part and become yaldobath and he gives akechi the power of the sudo wild card which could explain why Lavenza said he pitted two wild cards against each other
If I remember correctly, in Persona Q If I remember correctly, because the place they are trapped in is limited or will end or something has a set role. The wild card power was affected thus changing the nature of the wild card.
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy If I remember it correctly, I just purely remembered them talking about the world they are trapped in has a role. I also remembered Margaret from game is saying that two wild cards create a infinite symbol when combines or something like that, but this part is for awakening their ultimate persona though.
Something that i dont see many people talking about in this discussion is the fact the Akechi is the Justice arcana from our (Joker's) perspective and every person is the Fool on their own journey so my hypothesis is that Loki is Akechi's Fool persona like how Arsene is to Joker and Robin Hood is Akechi's Justice persona formed from his bond with Joker, who is the Justice Arcana from his perspective (as Joker is really the only person he forms a deep bond with he doesnt have any of other bonds Joker has). However this can also be construed to everyone is a potential wildcard
Hello, I’d like to add that something, In chapter 29 of the person 4 manga Yusuke evolves his persona into Jiraiya and it never changes which shows us that to even change your persona back into Pallidion or Robinhood you would likely need the power of the wildcard to do so. My point being that the only two speculated wild card users Aegis and Akechi are also the only ones that can switch back and fourth unlike someone like Yosuke in the manga
What makes me think every night is how they treat akechi 3rd awakening as if he was an original persona user(fusing 2 of his persona, which is a different persona unlike other teammate) , they could have made akechi's 3rd persona awakening as akechi getting new persona from his bond with MC. But oh well i think to hard
I never really thought on why akechi was a wild card because of what lávenza said that 2 people with potential are chosen. Spoiler warning in case you haven’t played persona 5 Royal: Something that really stuck with me is why sumiré had the metaverse navigator. Or like why did she get attracted to the stadium where marukis palace is located in. One theory I saw on Reddit was because yaldabaoth saw maruki as a threat in the future so he gave sumiré the meta nav as a means to stop maruki from gaining too much power because I doubt it was given to her all because joker trusted her because her phone was acting strange way before they enetered marukis palace on the 10/30. So I’d like to get some theories on this topic because it’s so intriguing.
As you can see in the comments, people really have a different opinion, and as I mentioned, for some people, Lavenza's dialog is not enough. Also, just like I mentioned, most people who believe he is a wild card are similar to you. They just take the obvious information the game gives, and again, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I do believe it is likely the most common way of reaching a conclusion. Anyway, about the request: It's very interesting, and I'm happy to take a look, but I can't promise you when I'll be able to get to it. I have so many things lining up.
I like to think that if he is in fact a wild-card that as we progressed his Confidant we go up in his by which I mean the reason Akechi is the Justice Arcana for us, is that he's standing for his own Justice not for the justice that we personally as Joker and the Phantom thieves is a whole believe in. so with that understanding it would make sense if the inverse is also correct;if he has the ability to create contracts between confidants then that would mean that joker is his Justice or standing equivalent
I find the spinoffs tend to exist in their own pocket of continuity that don't always line up with the main series. Even the main series games can be difficult to mesh together at times but at least there it tends to easily be explained by reality semi rewriting itself as different entities and layers of the collective consciousness become the dominant influences. Basically like the rumours in P2 rewriting reality in ways that could create, remove and completely change people but in an 'all myths are true' sort of way regarding the final bosses of the later games. With the spinoffs, sometimes they bend or break established rules to justify game mechanics and plot stuff. Stuff like Joker losing his compendium and having to completely redo it because Igor was absent, which makes no sense in-universe but happened because characters tend to get retired when their VAs die and the game can't carry over the P5 compendium + is more limited in available personas. The main series has to work around limitations too and has shifted direction in its lore but is better able to stay consistent in its established formula on what rules can change and which ones are meant to stay the same. Some types of spinoffs like fighting games and crossover stuff also tend to run pretty heavily on excuse plots that don't necessarily make sense as more than an isolated story independent of the main series they're associated with. Going by what goes on in the main series, I get the impression that the wildcard is actually a contract with Philemon and/or Nyarlathotep much like how all personas in P1 and P2 were given by them. Why everyone could use multiple personas there and can't anymore would be explained as a change in how their contracts were structured for later iterations of their game. Non wildcards effectively have a less direct form of the contract where they participate in the game but aren't central players in the same way wildcards would be. Aigis seems to have inherited the P3 protagonist's contract after a visit from Philemon. I'm iffy on her switching to Fool from Chariot after this since it doesn't really seem necessary. The only reason for it is due to the perception of Fool = Wildcard when they could've nodded to P1/P2 in better separating the two as connected but distinct. Changing the arcana of a character's persona outside of second awakenings doesn't really mesh with specific personas and their forms being an expression of someone's fate. What Athena represents to Aigis was expressed through the Chariot arcana and shouldn't have changed. Orpheus, Thanatos and Messiah having different arcana works because they individually represent different things through different arcana. Back to Akechi, P3 made a whole thing about what happens if you shove a shadow into someone who can only have one persona vs doing it to a wildcard and he had the potential to "win" and shape the world same as Joker, so it makes the most sense if he's a wildcard whose 2 personas are reflections of himself but never formed the necessary bonds to gain more. He could very well be a case of someone naturally awakening to 2 separate personas rather than continuing to use both forms of one, which normally wouldn't be possible due to most people being unable to hold more than one. Why this would happen instead of a second awakening in his case could be from Robin Hood and Loki representing such wildly divergent and conflicting paths and desires relating to his chosen goal, where personas usually become stronger and more refined forms of the same one. I wasn't a big fan of the third awakenings but his seems fitting in a similar way to having to fuse Orpheus and Thanatos to get Messiah. Both are a reconciliation of what the two component personas represent in order to create a unified whole. Another thing to keep in mind for why Akechi lacking the Fool arcana wouldn't be an issue for him having the wildcard is that people can be associated with multiple arcana. P4/P5 like to stick to one but P3 had characters with different arcana for their SL and personas and P1/P2 gave characters varying degrees of affinity with arcana that determined what kinds of personas worked best for them. Yu's second persona has World instead of Fool and Minato got Death and Judgement, so even Fool wildcards can have non Fool personas. The arcana that best represents a character isn't necessarily the only one they have strong ties to and it really depends on what aspects of themselves are being symbolically represented. One thing that bugs me about P5/P5R is that despite talking so much about shadows and personas, it's done in a limited perspective where characters can make incorrect assumptions that are never clarified/corrected. Maruki having a persona and a palace makes more sense when you remember that Futaba briefly had both too but her palace collapsed because she rejected what it represented and left with her persona. Maruki kept both because he embraced the desires of his palace, made a contract with his shadow and then fused the palace with mementos to reshape reality. Another example is what's said about the thief outfits. Morgana assumes that Joker's outfit poofed between fights because he didn't get the hang of his powers yet but this never happened with anyone else and he's the only one who didn't crash immediately after the first awakening. It's also assumed that the outfits appear based on being perceived as a threat but that seems like an oversimplifcation too. The implication seems to be that personas make the outfits appear when able to be called upon since they express the persona's passive buffs like elemental resistances and the heightened physical abilities people lack outside the metaverse. Arsène likely made the outfit disappear between fights so that Joker could conserve energy to fight his way out of the palace before the crash hit. He's more involved than personas usually tend to be and the others wouldn't have needed to do that since they had the knowledge and allies necessary to get out safely. For some reason they also never talk about how thief outfits compare to palace ruler outfits despite the clear connection between them.
There are 3 people who are possible wild cards. Joker obviously, Akechi probably, and Clara from the maid cafe as speculated by members of the velvet room.
I'm pretty sure that P3 quote was retconned in P5 anyways, considering your party was able to enter to the Velvet Room at the end of the game, before facing Yaldabaoth.
The thieves den being jokers palace is actually impossible, Morgana once said that persona users simply cannot have their own palaces, hence the thieves den cannot be jokers palace.
@@melonsauce1474 i havent actually gotten to the maruki bit yet (haha its been one year, just havent had much time to play the game is all) so id prefer if you didnt give me too many spoilers
Here's my theory, and why. Under normal circumstances it is impossible for someone without the wild card to even access the Velvet Room. In order to present evidence in this case, I will actually cite Persona 1 and 2, where every character is a wild card and can access multiple personas without issue. Akechi is a different case. He may have some form of two true selves, or more likely, Loki can manifest with an alternate appearance and another name.
Sorry that I didn’t reply sooner, I was too busy with life. But either way I totally aggre with your analysis, Goro has the potential to be a wildcard but isn't because that's just not really possible for him. Simply because his ability is limited. Like Loki, he can trick people in to believing that he's somebody else, which means he gains anathor persona. But that doesn't make him into a wildcard, he's a separate case.
Hey, thank you for the comment. I am torn between the first and third camps. While the third camp allows much more possibility, like you mention, he could be something else that does not have an official name yet, at the same time, I am sort of leaning into the sleeping wild card aspect of the third camp, as in, he is a wild card but he has not reached the same state as the Joker yet, which he might in the future. Thank you again for taking the time to comment. Your comment and those of other people give me ideas sometimes when I'm deciding what to cover next, and it also allows me to see the theory from a different perspective so I can cover all angles properly.
Tbh i have a idea on why akechi had 2. What if akechi was the reverse fool. Every wild card protagonist was the normal version of the fool. So what if akechi was the reverse fool,yet due to what would happen,igor locked akechi out of the velvet room,which had akechi only get hereward,which then became robin hood and loki.
The whole thing of "Akechi is the Justice not the Fool, therefore he can't be a Wild Card" was always weird to me, since even if we put aside that other Arcana can be Wild Cards, such as in the first 3 games, or with Sho, Akechi doesn't eternally exist as the Justice arcana. Sure, he might be the Justice for Joker. But what about if he interacted with a kid? Would he be the Hierophant instead? Or the Emperor? Does this mean that if Kanji awoke to the Wild Card, that Yosuke would still be his Magician? That goes completely counter to the idea of the "Fool's Journey" thats the whole reason for giving social links arcanas in the first place. They aren't inherent traits belonging to people, they're what they mean to the person who is specifically on the Fool's Journey in the first place. If Akechi, hypothetically, were to be a Wild Card, he wouldn't suddenly have Joker as his Fool social link. Fool's representation is always Igor. Joker would have to represent something entirely different. Perhaps The Hanged Man, due to his circumstances around his criminal record, or perhaps The Magician due to his seemingly limitless talent, and overall cocky demeanor. Arcana are only relative to the Fool who's creating a social link in the first place.
I thought it was straight up mentioned that yaldabouth picked 2 people to be wildcards to participate in his "game" either that or igor set 2 wild card to stop yaldabouth either one
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy I'm almost at that lavenza scene but i remember it was when mona was revealed to be a velvet room attendant and the pt where in the velvet room
@@ball.3841 If it the same one I include on the video. She only mention Yalda selecting 2 people with potential and pitted them against each other. No wildcard is mentioned. Let me know if u find the scene you are referring to 🙏
Found it Lavenza said " to decide the fate of the world, it chose 2 people with potential and pitted them against eachother" Edit: just saw the reply and i always thought potential was referring to the wild card if that's not the case mb
@@ball.3841 Ur not really wrong about what u are saying at all. The only problematic part is u said straight up. But assuming she was meant wildcard totally make sense. But ya she could mean something else too if I are interested in the full theory feel free to watch the video. thank you for checking your claim!
I just thought that Robin hood evolves into Loki, and only changed his appearance. Especially in the 3rd awakening. It shows robin hood and Loki, when in normally shows the 2 personas before the 3rd one
May i add that Loki is a trickster that changes forms? I know you know that... But in all fairness, that alone looks like the power of a wild card without being a wild card and it suits Akechi perfectly
Yeah, man, you can theorize it however you like. Some people, like I mentioned, Some people believe he can change form according to Norse mythology and as seen in some other SMT games. Some say maybe not in this version, using the Dazzle pattern design and dev comment to argue (the Dazzle pattern is not designed to conceal but to deceive, making people misjudge the war ship's heading). This can be seen as paralleling to the fact that Loki might be able to make people misjudge that he is Justice Arcana (but just misjudge; he did not entirely transform into another person). When I make this kind of video, I try to provide as many angles as possible. I am not trying to progress my own beliefs; if I were to do that, I would just pick one theory and build on it rather than showing you all these other ones and explaining the counterpoint to each of them. At the end of the day, everyone can draw their own conclusions.
I think all Fools are wild cards, but not all wild cards are Fools and only Fools can get access to the compendium and fuse personas. I also think that Robin Hood and Loki are both his real personas, but because he has 2 vastly different sides of himself, or "personas", he gets 1 persona for each side. Robin Hood for his justice seeking detective prince half, and Loki for his mass murderer hitman half
If you don’t need to be a wild card to hold more than one persona, I wonder if someone with a condition like multiple personalities could have one for each identity?
While they did not use the word personality, Sho from P4A has two consciousnesses. One of the sun arcana and one of the moon, but only the moon can use personas until later on. But yes, in theory, I think Akechi and Sho suggest that if someone with multiple personalities awakens their persona, they could have more than one. (Always remember that even if we speculate and make sense from the game information, at the end of the day, it is still speculation, and the dev can write it however they want.)
The one thing I hate about protagonist-kun being so special is that the human is so only special because he is chosen by God. In truth everyone can become special with time and work. I love the unchosen one trope for that very reason!
Couldn't the areas where the Q games take place affect the wild card. We know there is time travel shenanigans, so we know there are some strong types of magic.
I don't think akechi is a wildcard, the main reason for saying so, is due to him having more than one persona. The wildcard is infinite due mostly to their physical and mental ability of just being adaptable, whatever they need they need to be, and that their personality could even shift to better suit their role better, and that their true form is that of a "trickster" Akechi, while yes he does have more than one persona, this is much more likely a manifestation of the fact that he is much closer to being "two-faced" and the gap between them, each side representing his optimistic exterior, the side shown publicly, especially on tv, and the darker side, (I don't really know how else to refer to it, it isn’t really pessimistic, maybe closer to realism.) The side of which was grown up without parents, the side that grew with vengeance. These are both equally him. Neither is more true. Thus the reflection of his true self, both. Notably not both at once, he doesn't switch in and out as readily as a wildcard would, that's mostly why I don't think he is one, the shift in persona usage mirrors the persona we see him wear for the phantom thieves. Switching to his vengeful later because that's who he is when he's with them later. Not his optimistic side. That's mostly it for me.
Always wonder in ultimax if she did save P3 pro tag how's everyone gonna react to seeing young makoto and seeing his friends hitting there's 30's to 40's 💀.
I fail to see how this is, in any way, something to talk about past the fact it exists. Akechi has at a minimum, 3 bonds (which i can point out, thats the same amount as all the forced to completion confidants that joker has: mona, "igor" and sae.) He is of the justice Arcana, despite following a more narcissistic approach to the personal definition of Justice than most of the others in the game (at least until the 3rd semester). He could have pulled Robin Hoods form from Shido, as their personal definitions of Justice are rather similar (from what i can see). And Loki could have been formed from "Igor". I mean, take a look at P4/G, Loki is the reward persona for completing the Fool. And i know someone is gonna come in and go "oh, but he never made a connection to 'Igor'" I beg to differ. It may not be a spoken connection, but it is one nontheless, making it a social link of some sort. And it probably completed the same way that rank 10 of the fool completed for joker. Now, some may ask about what persona Joker gave Akechi if what I'm saying is the case. Well, it's Hereward. I don't remember much (if anything) about the man, but if anything else here is true, then persona re-awakenings can count as the "reward persona" as i called it, for whichever confidant. Alot of this is speculation on my part, to be fair, but i have done more than 15 minutes of thinking, unlike a decent chunk of Stans for this sorta thing.
robin hood is the persona akechi gets with his relationship with joker and loki is hos real because loki was in the last games fool arcana and because akechi has only one earnest relationsship with joker he has only two
So... I think he isn't a wild card, but rather a persona user like persona 1 and 2. Maybe something like he's an anomaly of the old world trying to be remembered?
I don't like what Futaba said about Akechi not being able to summon multiple persona because he didn't create bonds and how Robin and loki are from his lies and hate. He created bonds with sae and ren but he still didn't get any new persona. Also Robin and loki both come from diffrent parts of akechi and his views on justice. Robin is everything he wanted to be when he was little, loki is everything he is now due to all the trauma he had to go though. And then Robin and loki fuse to make his 3rd persona. I like to think all of his persona come from diffrent parts of his personality or ideas of justice. It would definitely be allot cooler if that was the case, it also still works if he is a failed wild card, instead of the persona's coming from the bonds he makes they just come from him.
@@JCaesar71306 Akechi was reluctant to make bonds but he never rejected them!! He made bonds with Sae and Ren, they should have atleast given him the power to have unlocked more persona if he was a wildcard. But I don't think he is, he awakens to all of his persona's meaning they come from him.
@@abimorris1970 Jesus, you are not smart. He does reject the bonds. Yes, he feels friendship towards Sae and Joker, the difference is he rejects them as friends. In truth, he does not consider ANYONE his friend. This means that he can not gain any power via the bonds, because he is actively rejecting them.
It's not really a valid argument to say that only Fools can be a wild card because that completely ignores P1 and both P2s where everyone is a wild card and the protagonists are Emperor, Sun, and Moon arcanas.
Nah I don’t think Akechi is a wild card. I think he was so good at creating an entirely new personality, Robin Hood is just the representation of that fake “real” personality. I think that’s all he has.
sorry but no, Robin Hood is fake and Loki is true (since after he reveals his true personality Loki is the one he used) Akechi is also not a wild card since he wasn't a guest of the velvet room
Well in regards about Joker & Akechi having the Same Power, aka Wildcard, I personally don't Believe Akechi is a Wildcard due to my Experience with the Series & here are the Reasons Why (some spoilers): 1. The Thieves Den is not something to be really considered Canon. For the most Part, it's a Ineractive Gallery of but in terms to talking to Characters it's more of a "What if Secenario" for Interactions. 2. Let's say that the Interactions are Canon, Akechi quickly jokes about it to Yusuke about having the Wildcard. In this Scenario, it's more of a Competitive Mentality & Spirit that Akechi has to Joker becuz like any Rivalry, a Rival would claim to do, to be equal or better than his/her own Rival. 3. The Power of the Wildcard can be sensed by others who have the Power & the Velvet Attendants. This is seen throughout PQ & Q2 & P4 Arena & A. Ultimax. If Akechi is really a Wildcard himself, other Wildcards & especially the V. Attendants would have sensed him to have such Power. Now most of may say becuz of his Power & Status of Trickster like Joker or becuz of his Persona Loki (the Trickster God) he was able to keep his Wildcard Power hidden. Well No. 1st off, the idea of Trickster for Akechi is not about Power but more about Character & 2nd, it's not becuz of his Persona Loki, anybody can trick anyone, regardless of their Persona (Example is Adachi who has Magatsu Izanagi however he is Trickster in terms of Character). However let's say that it is becuz of Akechi's Power of being Trickster or becuz of his Persona Loki. The V. Attendants would sensed Akechi to be similar to other Wildcards or have the Potential to be one (like Sho in P4 A.Ultimax) becuz to them, they are really powerful enough to sense anyone's Power & Potential... 4. In Modern Persona (3-5) all Wildcards initially have the Fool Arcana or will change to the Fool Arcana (seen in the P3 the Answer with Aigis & in P4 Arena with Elizabeth). So in this case, Akechi should have change his Arcana to the Fool however this doesn't happen... 5. Loki is technically more of a 2nd Evolution of his Persona Robin hood rather than being a 2nd Persona. Loki is technically Akechi's Strongest Persona becuz he is the Evolved form Robin Hood & besides, Akechi would have equally used both Robin Hood & Loki, especially in the 3rd Sem but like it's proven, he does not... This all the more proves that Akechi is no different from the Persona Evolution Process of the Phantom Thieves. Why? Becuz if Robin Hood & Loki were actually 2 different Personas, he would've used them by really changing them throughout his whole Fight, not by simply using 1 for the 1st stage & the other for the 2nd stage becuz practically it's really stupid. & like I said before, this also would've been more useful in the 3rd Sem but it never happened, Akechi only used Loki. In this case, Akechi is a Users who can control his Persona's Evolution due to how long he has been a Persona User. & to note, all Phantom Thieves share similar Evolution Aspect to Akechi, where it starts from a Mythical or Historical Hero to Gods or other Religious Beings based in Legends (examples are Ryuji from Captain Kidd to Sun Wukong, Morgana from Zorro to Mercury or Yusuke from Goemon to Susano'o). This all the more proven in the 3rd Sem, where all the Phantom Thieves (except Joker) have their 3rd Evolved Personas which is a Fusion of their 1st & 2nd Evolved Personas . The other thing to note here is that Joker would've taught Akechi how him how to be Wildcard or have Lavenza & Igor to make him have access to V. Room during the 3rd Sem but as we know, that didn't happen... 6. You may say that "if it weren't for Yaldabaoth's Intervention, Akechi could've been a actual Guest in the V. Room", however this is not the Case. Throughout all Persona, Philemon (1-2) and his Servant Igor (3-5) choose those who have Potential & Growth to be Wildcards. So this isn't about Yaldabaoth's Intervention but more on who Philemon or Igor chosen. This is similar in P4, where Izanami chose Adachi, Nanatame & Yu to be part of her Game by awakening their Powers of summoning Personas & to enter the TV World but it's Igor who chooses who Yu to be a Wildcard based by their Growth & Potential. & to note, even throughout the 3rd Sem in P5R, Igor nor Lavenza ever acknowledge Akechi to be a Guest to V. Room nor did they make him a Guest to the V. Room, which also means not acknowledging him to be a Wildcard like Joker... 7. Also in "Implying", it's been more like by the Phantom Thieves Perspective. They did to "See to believe" Mentality when in Fact that Lavenza only said that Joker & Akechi were only Representatives in Yaldabaoth's Game, not about Joker & Akechi being both Wildcards...
I do not think Akechi has the power of the Wild Card. He even says so in the Thieves Den. Loki likely transformed into Robin Hood like how Akechi's Metaverse appearance changed to keep his "Detective Prince" guise.
@@ThelordHayden34 Expect P5R further proves this as his third awakening functions just like the other party members, where they're second awakenings are basically an alternate form of their original Persona. Robin Hood can even use curse skills despite being weak to it, again showing it's connection to Loki.
It's interesting how you mentioned the artbook and mementos report but didn't mention Maniax from 2016 where devs directly said 'He is another “chosen one” who received the same Wildcard ability as MC'
Honestly I learned the existense of Maniax User Handbook after making the video. I assume you got the quote from here blog.kouhi.me/spoilers-persona-5-maniacus-party-members/ . Do you happen to know what the Japanese line this is translate from? I'd like to make sure.
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy 主人公と同じワイルドの能力を授かった。shujinko to onaji wairudo... even with my limited Japanese i can tell it means "the same wild /something/" the translator isn't an Akechi fan they even never translated Akechi's OA confidant but that makes them more trustable for me even though I'm also a Goro fan I know that some are prone to twisting the truth to fit their narrative.
Also funny that in the same paragraph devs pointed out that he doesn't deny taking a liking to Joker. Hilarious that jp fans had 2 of most debated topics regarding Goro explained on a plate since 2016!
@@gegek3955 Oh no, I'm not really looking out for Akechi fans putting their spin on the translation. Translation includes translator interpetration anyway. Thank you for sharing, and I hope more people can see this comment, so let me pin it!
For the reason that akechi doesn't have the ability to access any more personas than his 2, i think it's because he doesnt have any bonds like joker does. In persona 4, adachi was given the same power as yu, but it's mentioned that he doesnt have yu's full power because he was isolated from other people. So, if we say the same for akechi, this explains why he only has 2. Even the people like sae who take an interest in him never really get to know him truly so he can't have true bonds with them like joker does, and therefore can't summon personas of different arcanas (representing other people's ideas)
Honestly, Akechi's being able to have two without having a contract with the Velvet Room is already amazing. Not many can do that. About the bond part, I might lack research, but from what I know, no one is able to start a confidant rank without the initial guidance from the velvet room. If anyone can point me to information stating otherwise, feel free to do so as it'll help me in the future video.
Akechi definitely has a friend
I mean... just look at.... well he really enjoys hanging out with.....
Never mind
I mean I’m also sure it’s because he doesn’t have access to fusion (except his 3rd evolution, but this event is triggered by Joker’s involvement) and the contracting other personas seems to be Joker’s unique wild card ability. I’m only including P5 and P5R knowledge. Him saying his power isn’t like Joker’s could also refer to their unique powers, like he could cause mental shutdowns and make people become psychotic. Which is gifted to him by the god of control as he is the god of control’s chosen Trickster.
This was explained in game
@@angelayoung9170 i thought it was lol but i wasnt sure
"I learned something about Loki-"
Me: "It was the horse banging wasn't it?"
"Loki turned into a horse-"
Me: "It's always Sleipnir"
Yes😂
Shame it wasn't the Mjölnir origin story.
Yup 😂
@@patrickkirchner2254 my favorite Loki related story will forever be the mistletoe ngl. As a kid I was like "he really went out of his way here for no good reason 😩"
@@littlered6340 poor baldr
I believe at the end of the day, Robin Hood was supposed to be the representation of his public self, the "Ace Detective" whereas, Loki was the embodiment of his true self, a liar, traitor, and a trickster. These two personas were born from his hate and need for revenge. It had been stated by Lavenza in the games that because he could not form any bonds with others, a lock was put on his heart
I thought it was pretty obvious that Akechi was a Wild Card but kept from his potential by Yaldaboth. He was locked out of the Velvet Room and was unable to utilize the tools he had. Even if he did form bonds early on, it wouldn't have helped him so he probably saw no use for it. (He had been using his powers for 2 years by the time we started our journey).
However, I disagree about his persona's being fake. I'm pretty sure it mentions multiple times in Persona 5 that the persona is a person's "true" self. And that is represented by having to brutally rip the mask you wear to society off your face to summon it for the first time.
On the other hand, I don't believe Futaba is correct either. I think that Robin Hood is a representation of Akechi wanting to strive for justice, by his own morals. (People often forget that Robin Hood was an outlaw. A common man and thief who stole and killed. Just because he had morals doesn't make him a paragon). Loki would then represent his trickery. There is many MANY scholarly debate about Loki (no one has been able to pin down what he is even the God of since there aren't any record of how he was worshipped) but he is commonly referred to as the TRICKSTER God. Loki would give him the strength to trick and fool those in power and still come out on top in the end. (As his Norse myths suggest)
Obviously I'm a huge fan of Goro Akechi. I have a lot of thoughts on him so thanks for doing this video!
Thank you for your long reply explaining your perspective, especially about Loki! It was a great read and thank for enjoying the video!
Loki also, in mythology, can be interpreted as getting justice for his children, who were imprisoned due to the Raganrok prophesy, as they had YET to do anything but be born. A pretty strong nod to Akechi's status as a bastard and being punished simply for existing.
@IceQueen975 YES!! I love that interpretation of Loki as justice!!! I, personally, (because of OverlySarcasticProductions) love the idea of Loki being the God and protector of the hearth, home, and family. It really brings Akechi into perspective that way.
Sorry to be that guy but Robin Hood is a nobleman who was against the unjust treatment and harsh taxes against the common folk. Sure I'll admit there has been versions he's a common man but in most he's from noble birth.
@FireRogueWolf25 there are actually no cemented versions of Robin Hood. In some he is presented as noble, but there is no definitive version. Most like the noble angle since it makes him more compelling, but in the 14th-15th century in the earliest written historical text involving Robin Hood, he was a servant
My personal theory has always been Akechi had the wild card, but always killed all of the shadows instead of negotiating with them, so he only had his two original personas.
That makes so much sense for his character! Like, it wouldn't even had occurred to him.
@@DeeFig66 And indeed it didn't - he gets excited like a little kid on Christmas Eve when the PTs mention how the calling card works
this is what i always thought. i mean, he's already strong enough and has 2 very powerful personas. he can take down shadows by himself, he doesn't need more of them. he's also a crazy bastard, so i don't think he ever even tried to talk to the shadows. far as he's concerned, they aren't real people just thoughts.
The way I always thought about it is that Akechi is the fool arcana of his own journey and Joker represents the justice arcana for him. In Persona 4, Loki was of the fool arcana, so that could suggest that it's Akechi's original persona. Robin Hood would then be born from his social link with Joker, the justice arcana.
As for his link with Sae, it could be possible that Akechi didn't like her, but there's not really much to support that idea.
I agree with this theory, especially because in Vanilla P5, I recall Morgana in “conversation” with Joker mentioning that Joker did not start the bond himself. Which implied Akechi chose to start the bond. That’s been removed in Royal since they didn’t auto-progress Akechi like they did in Vanilla but to me that line spoke a lot about their relationship with each other.
As for why he didn’t form a bond with Sae or Shido or anyone like that I don’t think it’s because he didn’t like Sae (he obviously hated Shido, so that one I can say for sure was because he didn’t like him), but to me he was actively not interested/choosing not to form bonds with others due to the plans he set in motion. He’s the son of a prostitute, who killed herself and was unwanted by his father and by the time we meet him, he’s the “Detective Prince”. I can understand him wanting to keep his walls up, especially around the people he’s choosing to work with to ensure they all believe he’s on their side. Especially since he was in the heart of the hornets nest with all of Shido’s secrets, while trying to keep Shido from learning who he truly was or he would have easily seen his true intentions before even meeting the players.
I think Joker just intrigued him enough to get him to drop that guard because of how similar they are supposed to be, so he chose to start a bond with him and learn more, originally because of the intrigue and even “distance” he likely believed the students had from what was really being plotted by Shido, and later it helped when he learned their true identities for the betrayal.
My theory had always been that Akechi's 3rd tier persona in Royal, Hereward, was his true persona all along. You mentioned in the video that P-Studio confirmed that both Robin Hood and Loki are aspects of Akechi. But what I always found so interesting about that Q&A was how its wording implies that he may have awakened to both Robin Hood and Loki at the same time.
But if Hereward is his true persona, why did he split into Robin Hood and Loki? I don't know the concrete answer to that, but I think it may have been the result of either his upbringing, interference from Yaldabaoth, or perhaps a bit of both. Whatever it was, it may be similar to Yaldy forcibly splitting Lavenza apart into the twins, and the two of them thus forgetting what the true purpose of rehabilitation is. It's almost like a distortion in how Akechi chooses to understand his own will of rebellion, which could explain why he was stuck with two personas. And it probably would remain that way until he figured out how to remove that distortion without tools from the Velvet Room.
What I love most about this theory is how it potentially provides a more detailed explanation as to how Akechi, as a Wild Card, can become stuck with two personas. Similar to the twins' situation, both Robin Hood and Loki represent different parts of Akechi's will of rebellion, but when they're apart, they seem like total opposites. One desperately seeks praise and acceptance from others by being percieved as a hero of justice under societal standards. The other seeks freedom to the point of selfishly pursuing revenge without regard for the chaos it may leave behind. But when they fuse to become Hereward at the end of Royal, it brings both extremes to a middle ground that perfectly balances aspects of both.
If Hereward was Akechi's true persona, he is honestly such a perfect fit for this theory. Hereward was said to have possibly been the real world inspiration behind the tales of Robin Hood, but he was also an exile who was both motivated by revenge against Norman conquerors for the death of his brother, and is also remembered as a legendary hero who rebelled for the freedom of his countrymen.
His bond with Joker still plays a huge part in this of course, since it goes to show how important the 2/2 event is to Akechi for it to be the catalyst that finally brought his personas together. I also like to think that he unlocked his wild card potential after the fact. Unfortunately, there just wasn't much time nor opportunity for him or the other thieves to even realize that, since the final Maruki boss is the only time Hereward could even be used.
Having his persona split in 2 would also explain why he has 2 costumes and why they are similar in structure.
I've always felt Robin Hood and Loki are the Justice arcana upright and reversed. Both stand for justice within their story/mythological context, but while Robin Hood restricted his justice to the rich to help the poor, Loki wants punishment and vengeance. Remember, Akechi is *15* when he awaken s to his Persona. With how he was passed around in the system yet canotically loved a show like Featherman, it's easy to see how he'd be split; angry angry ANGRY at being punished just because he was born out of wedlock yet still having that childish wish for things to go right and justice to prevail like in the Featherman show. In the TV studion interview, Akechi jokes he likes to think Santa Claus was real... but keep in mind, the signiture of a great lie is to let it hold a grain of truth. The Santa remark can easily be the truth; that there's still a part of Akechi that holds on that justice really will prevail, somehow.
That's a very cool unique take
@@JKCrafted I forgot to mention his costumes but yes, this as well. I wonder tho if that means he should've had a 3rd outift that combines the first two? Cuz it's interesting then that it doesn't. It could easily be explained as Atlus understandably not going out of their way to make a new Akechi model and sprites for one boss fight. Or maybe it implies that his tranformation isn't fully completed yet.
...It's highly unlikely that Atlus would go this direction but, Akechi's arc in Royal honestly stops at a perfect place to be picked up again with him as the protag for P6. It would honestly be really cool for P6 to have story elements that make it feel like a direct sequel to P5. Focusing on a slightly older college-age cast would also be a break in the trend that I'd gladly welcome.
That bit about "Yaldy splitting Hereward" is honestly a rad concept... Especially when you remember Joker and Arséne too.
Because Arséne is Joker's persona born from his own heart, and almost *immediately* after his awakening, Yaldy has Joker sacrifice him to make a new persona. One *not* born from his heart.
Yaldy intentionally "killed off" a part of Joker, that doesn't canonically come back *until* he's awakening Satanael.
So Yaldy doing something similar to mess with Akechi makes a lot of sense *and* adds another example to the "two sides same coin" thing he and Joker have going on
finally actual interesting discussion about akechi's character with the rare no bias........ looking forward to more! akechi's one of the deepest persona characters with many facets to him and im glad people are recognizing that without getting all silly over whether they like him or not
Glad you enjoy it!
I think your analysis was really interesting
I just wanted to add that joker technically also never signed the contract with Igor, since that happened while yaldabaoth was in control (which can also imply that he gave some form of contract to akechi, since they both were his “players”)
Great video, keep it up!
Very true, and on top of that, I really want them to expand more on the lore and features of making a contract as well. It mentions in the P3 if I remember correctly that it holds the user liable for their action, but if you ever choose a bad ending on purpose in some of the game, there seems to be no repercussion. I'll give Yalda's bad ending a free pass because Yalda is the one asking for the contract, but with stuff like Maruki's ending (P5R) and not being able to find out the truth in P4G, maybe something should happen? Right now, it's kind of like a gym ticket to use the VetVet Room feature.
My theory about personas is that everyone is able to become a wild card, but every wild card needs to be a fool.
We saw people switch personas, arcanas or just evolve their personas, so we know personas can change as long as the user changes. But most people are bound by their arcana, their personality, trying to better themselves without losing what makes them what they are (represented by a persona's final form). One must be a fool to follow a new path, to discard everything just so they could see it from a different view, to see *the world* on it's entirety. Everyone "can" be a fool but only some will actually choose to.
Now Akechi would be something I would call a "fake" fool, he tried to throw away his path (arcana) but all he could do was fool himself into thinking he did. Awakening to two personas but still both of them being from the justice arcana. Even more so loki being the embodiment of his fakeness, summoning a "fool" persona just to fool himself, representing how he thinks he is walking two different paths but in actuality they are just the same wicked justice.
I would go so far as to say you don't need a Fool to be a Wild Card if the Boss of the Velvet Room is around The One and only Philemon (not Igor he is just the manager)
beautiful comment
Pretty sure all Velvet Room attendants can use multiple personas. It’s not just Elizabeth. Elizabeth is the only one that changes arcana to fool because she goes on a journey to save the MC from P3. It’s why she is a former attendant.
I would like to say in reference to persona q the way that the suppression of the wild card is worded implies that something is suppressing the wild cards but since there's more than one of them their powers combined and gave everyone a fraction of the wild cards power.
The presence of multiple wild cards is not considered a factor towards them being weakened
Maybe "alter" are the more fitting word, it hard to say if letting everyone equipping sub persona is stronger or weaker than able to summon entire compendium. Nonetheless it does not effect the theory but thank for elaborating!
Now that i think about it i thinks its possible for someone can awaken to more than one persona at the start if you look back at P3 the MC awoke Orpheus and then Thanatos appeared due the connection with death and its implied that the Thanatos that Elizabeth has is the MC's so its not to much of a stretch
Also, correction - when Orpheus is torn apart, the one who shows up is not Thanatos, but rather Death AKA Pharos AKA Ryoji
Futaba's line always confused me because she said he might be a wild card but he's also using Loki who can just shape shift into Robin Hood so like is he really?
Hai, Chie, thank you for always leaving a comment on my video. So it's all speculation since there is no confirmation from the developers as far as I know, but Loki can shapeshift in some SMT games and in Norse mythology. However, with the design of it in Persona 5, as mentioned in the video, it might indicate that it can't do that and is only able to make people misjudge it. (While he can't become someone else, he is able to have a poor judgment of who he is.) But both are speculation, so it's up to what you want to believe.
i'd love to hear what you think of the two cents i have got for you!
i feel like something goes severely unnoticed - probably because of how cinematic and dramatic it looks
but Akechi changing outfits mid battle during Shido's palace is no Wildcard feat. it's no one's feat or feature, besides his own. it's safe to assume that something entirely new is happening
the only special thing about the wildcards realistically is - having access to diving into the sea of souls and obtaining pre-existing personas, non-unique to a person
from p5 on out, Loki became Akechi's persona and inaccessible to fuse
which means Loki isn't a part of the sea of souls anymore
and is in fact a unique to a person persona
i believe in two things
1) it isn't important to debate whether he is a wildcard because he stands out equally as unique among wildcards and persona users simply because of the fact that he changed metaverse outfits
2) Robin Hood and Loki to be just one persona, except they can, at akechi's will be reversed - arcana-wise!
Robin Hood and Loki both pertain to the Justice Arcana
their affinities/resistances interchange upon swap - as though one is upside down - one is weak to curse while blocking bless, the other is weak to bless while blocking curse
everyone stays in one outfit throughout - and the reason for that continuity is, i believe, because they traverse the path of their predisposed upright arcana
each arcana pertains to a fixated destiny, and on the way of realising said destiny we encounter hardship
the mask/persona manifests a form, apt to the wearer's means through which they choose to face hardship in order to fulfill their destiny (aka, a person would have a vision of what they would like to realise in their life and the way the persona/mask ends up looking takes the appearance of what one believes will be a sufficient enough front to carry them to their goal) - whether it'd be threading the path of an arcana's 'upright' or 'reversed' - Akechi had founded a role for both, yet unlike a Fool, all pertain to his one singular destiny of Justice - i mean, at least on a meta level, he envies Joker for exactly this reason - his freedom reminds him of his inability to escape Justice's fate. he cannot stop himself from masquerading, he cannot accept himself for who he is whilst also seeking that acceptance from others nor can he let go of what has controlled him for the majority of his life - his unparalleled hatred for Shido. Akechi was truly powerless, and so were all the people around him who tried to save him
Hello, thank you for the thoughtful and concise comment, but like I mentioned before, I am not up to a full back-and-forth discussion on a TH-cam comment section. It's just not the best place for it. But I'll do my best to respond to your two main points, though it won't be on the same level as yours and I won't cover the entire post.
1) I agree that it isn't important to debate whether there is a wild card or not; however, I also believe that something does not have to be important or beneficial in order to start a discussion or even start doing the activity. I don't need a real reason to want to spin my pencil for fun; it does not have to be meaningful, and it does not have to improve my health. I can do it because I want to. ( I mentioned before that a lot of the theories are a form of entertainment for me; in fact, I enjoy the constructive discussion people like you bring to me. The actual truth is secondary to me.
2) You are talking about the reverse card theory, which I mention briefly at the end of the video, but I can't cover it because the video is already too long. While I have read a couple of articles about it already. I think I will refrain from adding to it for now, as I need more research. However, it is great that you bring it up in such a well written format so I can include it in the video when I finally have time to get to it.
The interesting part about Persona's reverse card theory is that it is not the same as the tarot's interpretation of it, even though they are similar. The tarot meaning of the reverse card is that while it might just look like the opposite of its upright form, it actually shows a lack of energy in the original form, or a weaker version of the card. For example, the Queen of Cups signifies strong intuition as well as emotional security. The queen of cups reversed, then, could signal an obstruction in intuitive abilities and emotional insecurity that comes from lacking the original trait and not the strength from the opposite force.
However, when it comes to Persona reverse cards, which are more commonly called Reverse Persona, they take it as the exact opposite. Again, I'm sorry I won't be able to continue as there is just so much to talk about, and doing it in a TH-cam comment is just a horrible idea.
Thank you for writing, and please stay awesome.
Thanks for not squeezing everything in one video. Lore/theory heavy videos that are extremely long, are hard to skip to where the viewer left off, if they lack the irl time to get through everything at once. This is especially a problem at times TH-cam forgets where you left off on a video last time. I have this issue with watching stream VODs sometimes. So the fact you broke this video into pieces, makes it easier for me to find out the rest of what you were talking about after finishing this segment. As tomorrow I have time I need to spend with my brother for his birthday. And need to be prepared, which may or may not give me time to finish all this tonight.
That one insane theory off the pseudo wildcard reminds me of a particular wish I had for Persona 6
Basically, I've always liked Persona 3's aproach at persona evolution, having it relate yo how the characters react to moments related to them in the story, giving them the chance to have more plot relevance. But it is very nice to see your partners get new Personas from reaching level ten. So I thought, how about they got a second persona? One with maybe different affinities and kits, that gave those characters different use and referenced the struggles they went through in their social link with the main character
That can be interesting
How about we go back to P1&2 and each party member can access persona of their arcana as they level up? After it's acquired maybe??
7:00 i also wanted add how if you don't finish Maruki's arcana you don't get third semester and automatically go into the dream. Ive noticed that his is a common feature, for example in the original P5 if you didn't max out arcana that aren't the main group/story driven, they don't see the merge of mementos and the real world. Yet they do if you max them out. That's why everyone who isn't joker didn't notice anything at first, because no one forged a bond with Maruki like joker. Plus I'm almost certain Akechi's never seen Maruki a day in his life before third semester so of course he's going to be affected at first.
If only there was dialouge in thieves den about someone mentioning the horse story to akechi
A better retcon for me if Akechi would be a forced Shadow User by Yaldaboath instead of a WildCard Persona User. Maybe even apply the Pirates of the Carribean's Davy Jones' logic of "Part of the Ship, Part of the Crew." To give a way for Akechi to be able to gain other Shadows within Shido's palace.
Akechi is a wild card that doesn't have friends the only bond he has is with Joker which is why he is able to snag another persona that is able to "fool us" later in the game. Robinhood is the best side of Akechi but Akechi has already has accepted his darkside which is Loki. It also wouldn't surprise me that yaldaboath rigged the game against Akechi too
one thing i feel like is often misunderstood when it comes to figuring out the wild card is that the initial persona and ultimate persona of a non-wild cards are still different personas. as in, captain kidd doesn't _become_ seiten taisei, seiten taisei is a _new_ persona born from ryuji growing past beyond what kidd can alone represent. similarly, william isn't kidd and seiten taisei literally combining into a single entity, but ryuji reconciling the disparate parts of the two to form a more complete picture of himself
this is why the investigation team summon their base personas in p4a - because they can just _do_ that. the parts of them that those personas represent are still floating around in their head, after all. the inability to use your party members' previous personas in the mainline games mostly just comes down to their personas being mechanically designed as linear increases in strength, so ... there's not exactly any reason for you to set ryuji back to kidd once he's awakened to his other personas
in my mind, what the wild card truly grants when it comes to wielding multiple personas is the ease at which they're developed. persona 1 and 2 are always finnicky to consider, but even if the entire cast had access to the velvet room for developing personas beyond their first, that's also the _only_ way for them to do it. and the affinity system meant no one character could actually make use of every persona available to them, so i don't think any of them can be counted as wild cards. meanwhile, the first confirmed wild card slinks around tartarus for a bit, smacks some masked blobs around, and spontaneously has a fairy lady floating around in his head. even if a wild card _didn't_ have access to the velvet room, they'd likely still end up with quite the stock of personas in a short span of time - provided their heart is open enough to accept the differing perspectives that those personas are birthed from, unlike a certain slacker detective
so, akechi's dual personas don't necessarily mean anything towards him having the wild card, they just reflect ... his dual personas. his nature is split between such extremes that a single persona isn't capable of representing it, so his persona ability drew out two personas without the typical preceding step of growing past the initial persona. chances are that such a thing, while definitely uncommon, probably ain't all that unique in the grand scheme of things, because there are a _lot_ of two-faced people in the world, and you can't always pull a rise and reconcile both faces into a single whole without losing something in the process. hell, even rise might not have completely managed it; himiko reveals a second form in p4au when rise can no longer rely on her friends to fight for her, so perhaps all her disparate selves don't all cleanly into her support mode. clearly, they come together better than robin hood and loki do, but when the manifestation of your acceptance of all of your faces suddenly takes on a previously unbeknownst face, well ...
also, i'd like to bring up the idea that fool loki and justice loki aren't the same persona. i mean, they're spawned in entirely different mindscapes by people with entirely different personalities, so it'd be p. wild for their constituent parts to be exactly the same. there's a reason why, despite the _incredible_ array of personas each wild card has access to, the unique personas of their friends and other persona users? yeah, those are _at best_ locked behind bonus dlc. even if a wild card can use the experiences they share with others to manifest new facets of themselves with extreme ease, they can't truly mirror the people they're drawing from. experiences shared with others, after all, are still distinct from what those others experienced in the moment - not to mention everything else they've experienced without you. so not only is akechi's loki different from the loki that the protags can manifest in 3 and 4, but the loki those protags manifest would be distinct from another, too. likely far less distinct than the difference between them and akechi's loki, but the life experiences that those two compile into loki are _very_ different, so it'd only be natural for the results to be distinct entities that just so happen to be taking on the same archetype
besides, many mythological figures are complex individuals themselves, displaying and nurturing a variety of personas throughout their mythos. even if the loki in 3 and 4 _are_ the same loki, that doesn't mean that there's only one loki to be drawn from the sea of souls. it could very well be that just as we as players hadn't seen that form of loki until akechi's reveal, then neither had the major powers in the persona universe witnessed the manifestation of that loki in a long, long while
For the bonds being required to use more persona explanation, I think the game didn’t justify it well as Joker can fuse and use Personas from Arcanas that he hasn’t unlocked the confidant for yet
The velvet Room
Akechi is not a wild Card user, he is a different thing, and I can explain it.
As you said, persona original meaning is mask, but the complete meaning refers to a mask used by an actor to make his voice reach the crowd.
The way wild cards work is by basing their ability in the statement that people have different personalities (masks) that show to different people and in different situations, that’s what a wild card bases it’s power off, this can be supported by the fact that it’s easier to create deeper bonds with the arcana confidants if you have a persona of their same arcana, and that’s because you change your personality (mask) to be able to get closer to they.
But, Akechi instead uses the theory of psychoanalysis created by Freud to show his personas (masks). The theory states that there are 3 layers of each individual:
1.-The Ego (the person): the rational part that adjust itself by taking in consideration the other 2 inner you and the social/legal rules of the society. This is the mask everyone shows to most people and in Akechi’s case is represented by a detective who is also a celebrity of a TV show and plays by the rules of society
2.-The Super Ego (the angel): this is the nexus between the Ego and the most pure you, the Super Ego creates your Ego based on your purest self and the morals you learn, yet, it also represents things that you crave and constantly search for in order to feel full filled as an individual and give some small hints to your true nature, Akechi represents it as a literal white prince who fights for justice and craves everybody’s attention (that desire is represented as robin hood) but its true self shows a bit from time to time in this form
3.-The Id (the devil): the purest you and also the most twisted you, it wants to full fill it’s most selfish and purest desires and needs by any mean, no matter what, it’s considered the reverse to the super ego and needs to be suppressed by it using the morals and consciousness and as a result of their interaction creates the Ego, in Akechi’s case is represented as the black mask, a being that is the contrary of the white prince and does anything to get the attention he craves, the attention he needs, it’s represented by Loki because the aesir god was usually related to mischief changing his shape and attitude constantly (this represents the connection between Ego and SuperEgo and why Akechi can change masks and his whole aspect)
This also represents a criticism to society, and even Akechi asks you about the topic, and it’s what do you think that society really likes about the phantom thieves facing Medjed, and when you answer that the society finds it entertaining he says that it’s always the same, at the end it’s not about if it’s correct or not, but rather if society accepts it or craves it, society likes the entertainment and will always want to be on the winning side, Akechi knows that, and Yaldabaoth knows it too, that’s the whole point of persona 5, see if finally someone, a trickster can change the society’s hearts and minds, and see if they finally start thinking by themselves and what is correct, not what they desire. All of that makes me think that Akechi’s ability is nothing like a wild card, but a different ability created by Yaldabaoth based in the way it believed humankind behave and was really inside
(Sorry if my English it’s a bit crappy, its not my main language, anyways, hope you read what I think and give me your opinions)
Your English is fine, and I thought the whole thing was pretty well written. It's also well constructed and follows the abduction logic, and I'm glad to see more people construct and present their thoughts in this way. So to answer your request for my opinion, I've got to let you know that I don't really engage in a deep conversation in my TH-cam comments; it's just really not a good place for it. So I hope you can forgive me for not responding to your post at the same level you are putting in.
The only thing I got to say again, apart from praising that it is well written, is that at the end of the day it is still an abduction. Which means you put the points that you think make sense together to reach your conclusion, and there is no way to prove these points. For example, in my video, I mention that there are many interpretations of what a wildcard is, but for me, I'll try to get the information from the game script. On the other hand, you added a lot of your own beliefs. Now there's no way we can prove that either my interpretation is right or yours is. Unless maybe we fly to ask the director and force it out of him, if one of our interpretations is incorrect, the entire theory and structure are significantly weaker.
I said I was not going to write long, lol. My main point is that I don't care that much about the actual answer when it comes to video game theory. I just love hearing a well-constructed argument being shared, and you definitely are doing that. So thank you for posting, and please continue to be awesome.
In persona Q, the area is a limited plane of existence which counteracts the fools limitless potential. The existence of even amounts of wildcards creates a boon which gives everyone a shard of the fool.
Any source to the actual time this is explained? Id love to read the actual script. Also if what you are saying is true it would concidered a down grade right? As in it make something limitless become limited.
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy this is explained in persona Q around the time you get the other team in which the attendant explains that the other wildcards presence has allowed the boon to happen. I believe it also may have been mentioned a little bit before that as well.
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy Yes it can be considered a downgrade however the downgrade was still cancelled as the limited potential changed itself to still benefit in the limited area.
@@YourLocalPokemonTrainer thank! I'll do some investigating
The Persona 5 Maniacus also directly says "Akechi is the other “Chosen One” who has received the same Wildcard ability as the Protagonist"
I have a theory that I think makes sense
In the first 3 persona games 1 and 2 (innocent sin eternal punishment) all the charcters could use multiple personas and the one who gave charcters the potential was philemon and he is characterised by a butterfly
later on philemon becomes weakened and can't give as much potential to every persona summoner leading to igor becoming the master of the velvet room
Now every incarnation of the wild card after p2 sees a butterfly (aka philemon) before they awaken and I think by every new persona game philemon recovers more of his power leading to him being able to distribute more potential for persona users
Now in p5 the butterfly turn in Lavenza so that butterfly can't be the same as philemon is an argument I will hear which could mean 2 things
1: each velvet room attendant after the events of persona 2 is a part of philemon
2: Lavenza is an avatar of philemon but she doesn't relize it
which could explain why she is the only velvet room attendant which is a kid representing that philemon is regaining his power to the point of making an avatar a small at that ( if it isn't obvious I believe in no 2 more)
Interesting, so it is possible that I brought Philemon to my room. Joking aside, I feel like you have an excellent foundation for a very interesting theory. If you could find more links or other points that support the idea, this could be an amazing theory.
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy
Edit: I left out lots of useless talk
Here is a summary every theory you have about the wild card can probably be traced back to Philemon
according to the wiki and me playing p2 i.s and e.p aka the facts
Philemon is a being of the cognitive of all humans he wears a mask resembling a butterfly if the mask is taken off the one who witnesses his face will see their own and he says "I am Philemon, a dweller in the rift between consciousness and unconsciousness of all souls... I am you. You are me... I shall always watch over you from within. Farewell."
He gives the velvet room key to the charcters in p1 and 2 to access the services there
And gives every persona user the power to summon personas multiple in 1 and 2
He appears before every wild card user after that in the form of a butter fly before they awaken
Philemon can create multiple universes as spoilers after the world ends after the events of innocent sin he creates another at a cost of making the heroes forget each other
He also can be evil making a bet with nyarlthotep at the cost of the world which leads to the events of p2
Theory time
He gives the ones with enough will power (that is my theory anyway) the power of the wild card and others with a strong will power a weakened version of it for instance akechi
since he appears before the events of pq 1 and 2 and can create multiple universes this can mean he created a kind of mini universe for the events of both games to happen reason being unknown and could explain why the portags can only use 2 personas at a time since he has exhausted all of his power making the universe
He also could create all alternate universes for the games (female portag p3 and all the bad endings)
A tin foil hat level theory
Bec he can be evil this could mean that an avatar of his power can be evil which (and I am gonna say this again this is tin foil hat level) could mean an avatar of his became strong enough and evil enough to defy Philemon good part and become yaldobath and he gives akechi the power of the sudo wild card which could explain why Lavenza said he pitted two wild cards against each other
If I remember correctly, in Persona Q If I remember correctly, because the place they are trapped in is limited or will end or something has a set role. The wild card power was affected thus changing the nature of the wild card.
That would make alot of sense I have to try to find the exact time that was explain for my future video.
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy If I remember it correctly, I just purely remembered them talking about the world they are trapped in has a role. I also remembered Margaret from game is saying that two wild cards create a infinite symbol when combines or something like that, but this part is for awakening their ultimate persona though.
Something that i dont see many people talking about in this discussion is the fact the Akechi is the Justice arcana from our (Joker's) perspective and every person is the Fool on their own journey so my hypothesis is that Loki is Akechi's Fool persona like how Arsene is to Joker and Robin Hood is Akechi's Justice persona formed from his bond with Joker, who is the Justice Arcana from his perspective (as Joker is really the only person he forms a deep bond with he doesnt have any of other bonds Joker has). However this can also be construed to everyone is a potential wildcard
Hello, I’d like to add that something, In chapter 29 of the person 4 manga Yusuke evolves his persona into Jiraiya and it never changes which shows us that to even change your persona back into Pallidion or Robinhood you would likely need the power of the wildcard to do so. My point being that the only two speculated wild card users Aegis and Akechi are also the only ones that can switch back and fourth unlike someone like Yosuke in the manga
What makes me think every night is how they treat akechi 3rd awakening as if he was an original persona user(fusing 2 of his persona, which is a different persona unlike other teammate) , they could have made akechi's 3rd persona awakening as akechi getting new persona from his bond with MC. But oh well i think to hard
Thinking too hard is what we do a lot here, so welcome to the community!
I never really thought on why akechi was a wild card because of what lávenza said that 2 people with potential are chosen.
Spoiler warning in case you haven’t played persona 5 Royal:
Something that really stuck with me is why sumiré had the metaverse navigator. Or like why did she get attracted to the stadium where marukis palace is located in. One theory I saw on Reddit was because yaldabaoth saw maruki as a threat in the future so he gave sumiré the meta nav as a means to stop maruki from gaining too much power because I doubt it was given to her all because joker trusted her because her phone was acting strange way before they enetered marukis palace on the 10/30. So I’d like to get some theories on this topic because it’s so intriguing.
As you can see in the comments, people really have a different opinion, and as I mentioned, for some people, Lavenza's dialog is not enough. Also, just like I mentioned, most people who believe he is a wild card are similar to you. They just take the obvious information the game gives, and again, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I do believe it is likely the most common way of reaching a conclusion.
Anyway, about the request: It's very interesting, and I'm happy to take a look, but I can't promise you when I'll be able to get to it. I have so many things lining up.
I like to think that if he is in fact a wild-card that as we progressed his Confidant we go up in his by which I mean the reason Akechi is the Justice Arcana for us, is that he's standing for his own Justice not for the justice that we personally as Joker and the Phantom thieves is a whole believe in. so with that understanding it would make sense if the inverse is also correct;if he has the ability to create contracts between confidants then that would mean that joker is his Justice or standing equivalent
I find the spinoffs tend to exist in their own pocket of continuity that don't always line up with the main series. Even the main series games can be difficult to mesh together at times but at least there it tends to easily be explained by reality semi rewriting itself as different entities and layers of the collective consciousness become the dominant influences. Basically like the rumours in P2 rewriting reality in ways that could create, remove and completely change people but in an 'all myths are true' sort of way regarding the final bosses of the later games. With the spinoffs, sometimes they bend or break established rules to justify game mechanics and plot stuff. Stuff like Joker losing his compendium and having to completely redo it because Igor was absent, which makes no sense in-universe but happened because characters tend to get retired when their VAs die and the game can't carry over the P5 compendium + is more limited in available personas. The main series has to work around limitations too and has shifted direction in its lore but is better able to stay consistent in its established formula on what rules can change and which ones are meant to stay the same. Some types of spinoffs like fighting games and crossover stuff also tend to run pretty heavily on excuse plots that don't necessarily make sense as more than an isolated story independent of the main series they're associated with.
Going by what goes on in the main series, I get the impression that the wildcard is actually a contract with Philemon and/or Nyarlathotep much like how all personas in P1 and P2 were given by them. Why everyone could use multiple personas there and can't anymore would be explained as a change in how their contracts were structured for later iterations of their game. Non wildcards effectively have a less direct form of the contract where they participate in the game but aren't central players in the same way wildcards would be. Aigis seems to have inherited the P3 protagonist's contract after a visit from Philemon. I'm iffy on her switching to Fool from Chariot after this since it doesn't really seem necessary. The only reason for it is due to the perception of Fool = Wildcard when they could've nodded to P1/P2 in better separating the two as connected but distinct. Changing the arcana of a character's persona outside of second awakenings doesn't really mesh with specific personas and their forms being an expression of someone's fate. What Athena represents to Aigis was expressed through the Chariot arcana and shouldn't have changed. Orpheus, Thanatos and Messiah having different arcana works because they individually represent different things through different arcana.
Back to Akechi, P3 made a whole thing about what happens if you shove a shadow into someone who can only have one persona vs doing it to a wildcard and he had the potential to "win" and shape the world same as Joker, so it makes the most sense if he's a wildcard whose 2 personas are reflections of himself but never formed the necessary bonds to gain more. He could very well be a case of someone naturally awakening to 2 separate personas rather than continuing to use both forms of one, which normally wouldn't be possible due to most people being unable to hold more than one. Why this would happen instead of a second awakening in his case could be from Robin Hood and Loki representing such wildly divergent and conflicting paths and desires relating to his chosen goal, where personas usually become stronger and more refined forms of the same one. I wasn't a big fan of the third awakenings but his seems fitting in a similar way to having to fuse Orpheus and Thanatos to get Messiah. Both are a reconciliation of what the two component personas represent in order to create a unified whole.
Another thing to keep in mind for why Akechi lacking the Fool arcana wouldn't be an issue for him having the wildcard is that people can be associated with multiple arcana. P4/P5 like to stick to one but P3 had characters with different arcana for their SL and personas and P1/P2 gave characters varying degrees of affinity with arcana that determined what kinds of personas worked best for them. Yu's second persona has World instead of Fool and Minato got Death and Judgement, so even Fool wildcards can have non Fool personas. The arcana that best represents a character isn't necessarily the only one they have strong ties to and it really depends on what aspects of themselves are being symbolically represented.
One thing that bugs me about P5/P5R is that despite talking so much about shadows and personas, it's done in a limited perspective where characters can make incorrect assumptions that are never clarified/corrected. Maruki having a persona and a palace makes more sense when you remember that Futaba briefly had both too but her palace collapsed because she rejected what it represented and left with her persona. Maruki kept both because he embraced the desires of his palace, made a contract with his shadow and then fused the palace with mementos to reshape reality.
Another example is what's said about the thief outfits. Morgana assumes that Joker's outfit poofed between fights because he didn't get the hang of his powers yet but this never happened with anyone else and he's the only one who didn't crash immediately after the first awakening. It's also assumed that the outfits appear based on being perceived as a threat but that seems like an oversimplifcation too. The implication seems to be that personas make the outfits appear when able to be called upon since they express the persona's passive buffs like elemental resistances and the heightened physical abilities people lack outside the metaverse. Arsène likely made the outfit disappear between fights so that Joker could conserve energy to fight his way out of the palace before the crash hit. He's more involved than personas usually tend to be and the others wouldn't have needed to do that since they had the knowledge and allies necessary to get out safely. For some reason they also never talk about how thief outfits compare to palace ruler outfits despite the clear connection between them.
There are 3 people who are possible wild cards. Joker obviously, Akechi probably, and Clara from the maid cafe as speculated by members of the velvet room.
I'm still gonna need that omelette redone though
1:46 had me dead
I'm pretty sure that P3 quote was retconned in P5 anyways, considering your party was able to enter to the Velvet Room at the end of the game, before facing Yaldabaoth.
The thieves den being jokers palace is actually impossible, Morgana once said that persona users simply cannot have their own palaces, hence the thieves den cannot be jokers palace.
? But then Maruaki had both.
@@melonsauce1474 i havent actually gotten to the maruki bit yet (haha its been one year, just havent had much time to play the game is all) so id prefer if you didnt give me too many spoilers
I wanna claim my before this video blows up ticket because I'm pretty sure it will.
I'm glad you like it, but TH-cam can and will acts in a mysterious way!
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy The TH-cam algorithm is pretty goofy tbh.
Akechi's not a wild card simply because he changes outfit when changing from Robin hood to Loki
Joker's outfit never changes and he is a wild card
Here's my theory, and why.
Under normal circumstances it is impossible for someone without the wild card to even access the Velvet Room. In order to present evidence in this case, I will actually cite Persona 1 and 2, where every character is a wild card and can access multiple personas without issue.
Akechi is a different case. He may have some form of two true selves, or more likely, Loki can manifest with an alternate appearance and another name.
Sorry that I didn’t reply sooner, I was too busy with life. But either way I totally aggre with your analysis, Goro has the potential to be a wildcard but isn't because that's just not really possible for him. Simply because his ability is limited. Like Loki, he can trick people in to believing that he's somebody else, which means he gains anathor persona. But that doesn't make him into a wildcard, he's a separate case.
Hey, thank you for the comment. I am torn between the first and third camps. While the third camp allows much more possibility, like you mention, he could be something else that does not have an official name yet, at the same time, I am sort of leaning into the sleeping wild card aspect of the third camp, as in, he is a wild card but he has not reached the same state as the Joker yet, which he might in the future. Thank you again for taking the time to comment. Your comment and those of other people give me ideas sometimes when I'm deciding what to cover next, and it also allows me to see the theory from a different perspective so I can cover all angles properly.
I wonder if Akechi had access to Velvet Room, would Lavenza still be the attendant or whole new attendant would take place
Tbh i have a idea on why akechi had 2.
What if akechi was the reverse fool.
Every wild card protagonist was the normal version of the fool.
So what if akechi was the reverse fool,yet due to what would happen,igor locked akechi out of the velvet room,which had akechi only get hereward,which then became robin hood and loki.
The whole thing of "Akechi is the Justice not the Fool, therefore he can't be a Wild Card" was always weird to me, since even if we put aside that other Arcana can be Wild Cards, such as in the first 3 games, or with Sho, Akechi doesn't eternally exist as the Justice arcana. Sure, he might be the Justice for Joker. But what about if he interacted with a kid? Would he be the Hierophant instead? Or the Emperor? Does this mean that if Kanji awoke to the Wild Card, that Yosuke would still be his Magician? That goes completely counter to the idea of the "Fool's Journey" thats the whole reason for giving social links arcanas in the first place. They aren't inherent traits belonging to people, they're what they mean to the person who is specifically on the Fool's Journey in the first place. If Akechi, hypothetically, were to be a Wild Card, he wouldn't suddenly have Joker as his Fool social link. Fool's representation is always Igor. Joker would have to represent something entirely different. Perhaps The Hanged Man, due to his circumstances around his criminal record, or perhaps The Magician due to his seemingly limitless talent, and overall cocky demeanor. Arcana are only relative to the Fool who's creating a social link in the first place.
I thought it was straight up mentioned that yaldabouth picked 2 people to be wildcards to participate in his "game" either that or igor set 2 wild card to stop yaldabouth either one
Not straight up, it's quite a bit of speculation from what I understand. If u manage to find the scene feel free to share them.
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy I'm almost at that lavenza scene but i remember it was when mona was revealed to be a velvet room attendant and the pt where in the velvet room
@@ball.3841 If it the same one I include on the video. She only mention Yalda selecting 2 people with potential and pitted them against each other. No wildcard is mentioned. Let me know if u find the scene you are referring to 🙏
Found it
Lavenza said " to decide the fate of the world, it chose 2 people with potential and pitted them against eachother"
Edit: just saw the reply and i always thought potential was referring to the wild card if that's not the case mb
@@ball.3841 Ur not really wrong about what u are saying at all. The only problematic part is u said straight up. But assuming she was meant wildcard totally make sense. But ya she could mean something else too if I are interested in the full theory feel free to watch the video. thank you for checking your claim!
I just thought that Robin hood evolves into Loki, and only changed his appearance. Especially in the 3rd awakening. It shows robin hood and Loki, when in normally shows the 2 personas before the 3rd one
Futaba have a palace and persona
May i add that Loki is a trickster that changes forms? I know you know that... But in all fairness, that alone looks like the power of a wild card without being a wild card and it suits Akechi perfectly
Yeah, man, you can theorize it however you like. Some people, like I mentioned, Some people believe he can change form according to Norse mythology and as seen in some other SMT games.
Some say maybe not in this version, using the Dazzle pattern design and dev comment to argue (the Dazzle pattern is not designed to conceal but to deceive, making people misjudge the war ship's heading). This can be seen as paralleling to the fact that Loki might be able to make people misjudge that he is Justice Arcana (but just misjudge; he did not entirely transform into another person).
When I make this kind of video, I try to provide as many angles as possible. I am not trying to progress my own beliefs; if I were to do that, I would just pick one theory and build on it rather than showing you all these other ones and explaining the counterpoint to each of them.
At the end of the day, everyone can draw their own conclusions.
any questions relating to akechi in p5r have one two word answer Dunno maybe ?
I think all Fools are wild cards, but not all wild cards are Fools and only Fools can get access to the compendium and fuse personas. I also think that Robin Hood and Loki are both his real personas, but because he has 2 vastly different sides of himself, or "personas", he gets 1 persona for each side. Robin Hood for his justice seeking detective prince half, and Loki for his mass murderer hitman half
If you don’t need to be a wild card to hold more than one persona, I wonder if someone with a condition like multiple personalities could have one for each identity?
While they did not use the word personality, Sho from P4A has two consciousnesses. One of the sun arcana and one of the moon, but only the moon can use personas until later on. But yes, in theory, I think Akechi and Sho suggest that if someone with multiple personalities awakens their persona, they could have more than one. (Always remember that even if we speculate and make sense from the game information, at the end of the day, it is still speculation, and the dev can write it however they want.)
Labrys can do something like that in P4AU.
SMTP MCs: Wild Card
Akechi: Cheat Card
The one thing I hate about protagonist-kun being so special is that the human is so only special because he is chosen by God. In truth everyone can become special with time and work. I love the unchosen one trope for that very reason!
On top of that aigis is a wild card and makoto could summon multiple personas around her
Couldn't the areas where the Q games take place affect the wild card. We know there is time travel shenanigans, so we know there are some strong types of magic.
I don't think akechi is a wildcard, the main reason for saying so, is due to him having more than one persona. The wildcard is infinite due mostly to their physical and mental ability of just being adaptable, whatever they need they need to be, and that their personality could even shift to better suit their role better, and that their true form is that of a "trickster"
Akechi, while yes he does have more than one persona, this is much more likely a manifestation of the fact that he is much closer to being "two-faced" and the gap between them, each side representing his optimistic exterior, the side shown publicly, especially on tv, and the darker side, (I don't really know how else to refer to it, it isn’t really pessimistic, maybe closer to realism.) The side of which was grown up without parents, the side that grew with vengeance. These are both equally him. Neither is more true. Thus the reflection of his true self, both. Notably not both at once, he doesn't switch in and out as readily as a wildcard would, that's mostly why I don't think he is one, the shift in persona usage mirrors the persona we see him wear for the phantom thieves. Switching to his vengeful later because that's who he is when he's with them later. Not his optimistic side. That's mostly it for me.
Always wonder in ultimax if she did save P3 pro tag how's everyone gonna react to seeing young makoto and seeing his friends hitting there's 30's to 40's 💀.
😂 Aigis still gonna be as cute 🥰
I fail to see how this is, in any way, something to talk about past the fact it exists.
Akechi has at a minimum, 3 bonds (which i can point out, thats the same amount as all the forced to completion confidants that joker has: mona, "igor" and sae.)
He is of the justice Arcana, despite following a more narcissistic approach to the personal definition of Justice than most of the others in the game (at least until the 3rd semester).
He could have pulled Robin Hoods form from Shido, as their personal definitions of Justice are rather similar (from what i can see).
And Loki could have been formed from "Igor".
I mean, take a look at P4/G, Loki is the reward persona for completing the Fool.
And i know someone is gonna come in and go "oh, but he never made a connection to 'Igor'"
I beg to differ. It may not be a spoken connection, but it is one nontheless, making it a social link of some sort.
And it probably completed the same way that rank 10 of the fool completed for joker.
Now, some may ask about what persona Joker gave Akechi if what I'm saying is the case.
Well, it's Hereward.
I don't remember much (if anything) about the man, but if anything else here is true, then persona re-awakenings can count as the "reward persona" as i called it, for whichever confidant.
Alot of this is speculation on my part, to be fair, but i have done more than 15 minutes of thinking, unlike a decent chunk of Stans for this sorta thing.
Adachi is also a wild card but he is never associated with the fool arcana
robin hood is the persona akechi gets with his relationship with joker and loki is hos real because loki was in the last games fool arcana
and because akechi has only one earnest relationsship with joker he has only two
So... I think he isn't a wild card, but rather a persona user like persona 1 and 2. Maybe something like he's an anomaly of the old world trying to be remembered?
that's be cool if they link it with persona 1 and 2
I don't like what Futaba said about Akechi not being able to summon multiple persona because he didn't create bonds and how Robin and loki are from his lies and hate. He created bonds with sae and ren but he still didn't get any new persona. Also Robin and loki both come from diffrent parts of akechi and his views on justice. Robin is everything he wanted to be when he was little, loki is everything he is now due to all the trauma he had to go though. And then Robin and loki fuse to make his 3rd persona. I like to think all of his persona come from diffrent parts of his personality or ideas of justice. It would definitely be allot cooler if that was the case, it also still works if he is a failed wild card, instead of the persona's coming from the bonds he makes they just come from him.
He didnt make bonds. He rejected his bonds, while the wild cards accepted them.
@@JCaesar71306 Akechi was reluctant to make bonds but he never rejected them!! He made bonds with Sae and Ren, they should have atleast given him the power to have unlocked more persona if he was a wildcard. But I don't think he is, he awakens to all of his persona's meaning they come from him.
@@abimorris1970 Jesus, you are not smart. He does reject the bonds. Yes, he feels friendship towards Sae and Joker, the difference is he rejects them as friends. In truth, he does not consider ANYONE his friend. This means that he can not gain any power via the bonds, because he is actively rejecting them.
If he ain’t a fool then he is in fact a jester
Life is a comedy
@@Sky_Gaming_Academy and we are the comedians
I think he is a Devil summoner instead of a persona user
nanako
Did you find her?
It's not really a valid argument to say that only Fools can be a wild card because that completely ignores P1 and both P2s where everyone is a wild card and the protagonists are Emperor, Sun, and Moon arcanas.
Nah I don’t think Akechi is a wild card.
I think he was so good at creating an entirely new personality, Robin Hood is just the representation of that fake “real” personality.
I think that’s all he has.
sorry but no, Robin Hood is fake and Loki is true (since after he reveals his true personality Loki is the one he used) Akechi is also not a wild card since he wasn't a guest of the velvet room
Well in regards about Joker & Akechi having the Same Power, aka Wildcard, I personally don't Believe Akechi is a Wildcard due to my Experience with the Series & here are the Reasons Why (some spoilers):
1. The Thieves Den is not something to be really considered Canon. For the most Part, it's a Ineractive Gallery of but in terms to talking to Characters it's more of a "What if Secenario" for Interactions.
2. Let's say that the Interactions are Canon, Akechi quickly jokes about it to Yusuke about having the Wildcard.
In this Scenario, it's more of a Competitive Mentality & Spirit that Akechi has to Joker becuz like any Rivalry, a Rival would claim to do, to be equal or better than his/her own Rival.
3. The Power of the Wildcard can be sensed by others who have the Power & the Velvet Attendants. This is seen throughout PQ & Q2 & P4 Arena & A. Ultimax. If Akechi is really a Wildcard himself, other Wildcards & especially the V. Attendants would have sensed him to have such Power.
Now most of may say becuz of his Power & Status of Trickster like Joker or becuz of his Persona Loki (the Trickster God) he was able to keep his Wildcard Power hidden.
Well No.
1st off, the idea of Trickster for Akechi is not about Power but more about Character & 2nd, it's not becuz of his Persona Loki, anybody can trick anyone, regardless of their Persona (Example is Adachi who has Magatsu Izanagi however he is Trickster in terms of Character).
However let's say that it is becuz of Akechi's Power of being Trickster or becuz of his Persona Loki.
The V. Attendants would sensed Akechi to be similar to other Wildcards or have the Potential to be one (like Sho in P4 A.Ultimax) becuz to them, they are really powerful enough to sense anyone's Power & Potential...
4. In Modern Persona (3-5) all Wildcards initially have the Fool Arcana or will change to the Fool Arcana (seen in the P3 the Answer with Aigis & in P4 Arena with Elizabeth).
So in this case, Akechi should have change his Arcana to the Fool however this doesn't happen...
5. Loki is technically more of a 2nd Evolution of his Persona Robin hood rather than being a 2nd Persona. Loki is technically Akechi's Strongest Persona becuz he is the Evolved form Robin Hood & besides, Akechi would have equally used both Robin Hood & Loki, especially in the 3rd Sem but like it's proven, he does not...
This all the more proves that Akechi is no different from the Persona Evolution Process of the Phantom Thieves. Why?
Becuz if Robin Hood & Loki were actually 2 different Personas, he would've used them by really changing them throughout his whole Fight, not by simply using 1 for the 1st stage & the other for the 2nd stage becuz practically it's really stupid. & like I said before, this also would've been more useful in the 3rd Sem but it never happened, Akechi only used Loki.
In this case, Akechi is a Users who can control his Persona's Evolution due to how long he has been a Persona User.
& to note, all Phantom Thieves share similar Evolution Aspect to Akechi, where it starts from a Mythical or Historical Hero to Gods or other Religious Beings based in Legends (examples are Ryuji from Captain Kidd to Sun Wukong, Morgana from Zorro to Mercury or Yusuke from Goemon to Susano'o).
This all the more proven in the 3rd Sem, where all the Phantom Thieves (except Joker) have their 3rd Evolved Personas which is a Fusion of their 1st & 2nd Evolved Personas .
The other thing to note here is that Joker would've taught Akechi how him how to be Wildcard or have Lavenza & Igor to make him have access to V. Room during the 3rd Sem but as we know, that didn't happen...
6. You may say that "if it weren't for Yaldabaoth's Intervention, Akechi could've been a actual Guest in the V. Room", however this is not the Case.
Throughout all Persona, Philemon (1-2) and his Servant Igor (3-5) choose those who have Potential & Growth to be Wildcards. So this isn't about Yaldabaoth's Intervention but more on who Philemon or Igor chosen.
This is similar in P4, where Izanami chose Adachi, Nanatame & Yu to be part of her Game by awakening their Powers of summoning Personas & to enter the TV World but it's Igor who chooses who Yu to be a Wildcard based by their Growth & Potential.
& to note, even throughout the 3rd Sem in P5R, Igor nor Lavenza ever acknowledge Akechi to be a Guest to V. Room nor did they make him a Guest to the V. Room, which also means not acknowledging him to be a Wildcard like Joker...
7. Also in "Implying", it's been more like by the Phantom Thieves Perspective. They did to "See to believe" Mentality when in Fact that Lavenza only said that Joker & Akechi were only Representatives in Yaldabaoth's Game, not about Joker & Akechi being both Wildcards...
I do not think Akechi has the power of the Wild Card. He even says so in the Thieves Den. Loki likely transformed into Robin Hood like how Akechi's Metaverse appearance changed to keep his "Detective Prince" guise.
But p5r contradicts this …he fused Loki and robin and you can’t fuse something with itself
@@ThelordHayden34 Expect P5R further proves this as his third awakening functions just like the other party members, where they're second awakenings are basically an alternate form of their original Persona. Robin Hood can even use curse skills despite being weak to it, again showing it's connection to Loki.
Maybe a spoiler warning about the Aegis thing? Though this is a P5-only discussion.
Kinda spoiled a key point in plot for me in p3p