I am playing really A LOT of infinity from n5 launch and I have to say I’m actually happy with the new climbing plus from a balance point of view. As it stands right now I think they wanted to have only the super jump units to be highly mobile and fast, while climbing plus units are more focused on efficiently using roofs and buildings to gain advantageous positions. For sure there is a big change from the n4 version but I don’t think in a negative way
That’s a perspective I hadn’t considered, well raised. Do you think that could still be achieved by enabling fireteams to move as well as the C+ unit? Or enabling the C+ unit to combine a climb with a move?
@@the_infinitygamer right now I think CB went safe writing the new fire team rules after the disaster of n4. Already in n4 c+ was the bad version of super jump and I think the direction we’re going is the one where c+ will be more and more a nieche skill that’s good to have but you’re not looking forward it. At the moment I feel like it’s good for the game that fire team have bad access to movement skill like super jump and c+ as you can make good attack pieces linkable in fire teams without any problems or making them too broken, the choice to run up a wall into a roof should be carefully pondered like it is now. while making fire team even more efficient could lean to the same problem we had in n4
Thanks for doing the update video. I liked you using the figures to show the skill. I’d like to see more of this! I’d like if you did a lot of short “how to” videos. Like throwing smoke for MSV for instance. I mean like 5 min or less short. I know it, but it would be something I can tell new people to go look at!
@@the_infinitygamer Awesome! A weekend of just showing making bunch of short videos and month of editing lol. Things I think that would be good: Moving around a corner to shoot and back out of sight, doing a Coordinated order, Super jump with shooting, using surprise shot or CC. How Decoys work, vaulting, etc.
Just took out my N3 rulebook to check how the rule worked back then. And basically it just changed a climb to a short skill, which as per the rules for climb in N3 would mean strictly speaking it would operate exactly how it does currently BUT in the example for C+ they have a Reaktion Zond bot with MOV6-4 move 2" towards a wall and then continue it's movement 4" up the wall. Which is how everyone played it. I think CB have messed this up because they changed climb and jump to flat values of 6". This seems like a way to avoid boosting unit speed. I think they should revert to climb and jump being based off of MOV value. IMO There was nothing wrong with that and climbing up and down should've awkward. If anything the simplest fix would have been to eliminate climbing as a skill and simply have move on a verticle surface cost x2 MOV. Then climbing plus could just simply ignore that.
I agree with you here. I can’t put my finger on exactly what they’ve done to make this mess but one of the numerous changes has made something that worked really well in N4 now quite bad. I wonder if it was the introduction of basic short skills…
@@the_infinitygamer Something you might be getting hung up on is that short actions (basic or otherwise) can be interrupted by other short actions. Just as a Move action can be interrupted to make a Discover action and then the move can be continued to to get behind cover, a Move can use part of the distance to reach a wall, be interrupted by a Climb+ to reach the top, and continue with the rest of the Move. At least that's my interpretation of it. Where it really fails is with teams using a mix of skills.
sadly yes... rules as written are really bad at the moment for Climbing Plus, among other things. Thank you for bringing this to light. I think we need way, way more videos, and content in general, bringing all the issues of N5 to focus, as waiting for usually 6 months for FAQ from CB could be really bad for the game. Looking for a new topic to break your brain... look up the look up the Schrödinger's cat which is a basic move skill at the moment. Since you can now cut corners while moving, if you have cut the said corner, at the moment you are passing the corner itself how do you place your silhouette and what is the size of the silhouette at that specific moment. Why is this relevant you may ask :) For S2 models it's often not, but if an S7 TAG cuts that corner and I am trying to figure out the line of fire for ARO or if the TAG is in ZoC it becomes really really important :) Another great one is if you can or can not remove the 2 orders from the player going first if he has only 10 orders. Rules, as written, say you have to have less than 10 orders in a list, like on your printed paper, but you can not remove the orders until they are generated, so... yeah... if you have 2 hidden deployment units and 1 tactical awareness unit, at this time, it's really on the tournament organizer to decide how we play it :) Great content mate, keep it up :)
I love your suggestion of exploring corner cutting, especially as most people wouldn’t have tokens to place for transparency in a game situation! I did try and cover the confusion about stripping orders in the video below. I’m still on the fence about how they intend for this to be played but I hope it’s that it’s only visible orders that apply. N5 rules confusion - New Limited Insertion (command token use) th-cam.com/video/BEbYits6vwE/w-d-xo.html
This happened because of the Zeta. Let’s be 100% real. Instead of just taking C+ away from the zeta they killed the skill for everyone. The zeta, in N4 C+, was an absolutely insane unit that honestly was often unfair in what it could achieve with the use of C+.
It was a beast, one I enjoyed using. But if you’re right the fix would have been to take C+ off the Zeta and give it something else. Not break the skill for everyone.
@the_infinitygamer And you can use your first basic short skill with climbing+ to climb to the top of the building and land on the horizontal surface, and use second basic short skill to move.
@@the_infinitygamer the interpretation hinges around "while moving on a vertical surface". The current interpretation we seem to be using and the other commenter seems to agree on, is that after the climb you are on an horizontal surface so now you can declare Move. Which to be honest maker a LOT of sense. Including for example Move first (as it should, Basic Short Skills get declared first) and then Short Skill Climb with the second skill declaration. Else that also cannot be done...
I'm guessing that CB saw the complaints about the Zeta being too good and redesigned C+ around that. The problem being that the Zeta can survive not having C+ be as good as it was, but the whole viability of other units hinged on C+ being as good as it was for order efficiency.
We have been playing it as you describe it here since N5 launched. I don't understand the nerf yet, to be honest, especially not being able to follow throu with the remainder of the 6in after landing in the horizontal surface. I would believe it is a conscious nerf the moment I believe horizontal superjumping 8in for some units was also a deliverate conscious decision...
It's not another short skill to complete the climb and go from vertical to horizontal. The examples in the rulebook are very clear that the flip at the end back to horizontal is measured as part of the 6 inches of climb. You don't need to stop at the top and then spend a short skill just to flip
I'm not sure this is a climbing plus issue. Reading over climbing plus it only has benefits over a standard climb. All of the issues you talked about stem from the base climb skill. while I agree that it is ....... not great, I don't think it was a change directed at dialing back Climbing Plus specifically so much as complicating basic climb had the domino effect of making climb plus not feel as good. While dealing with all the mentioned issues with climb, climb plus makes it quicker, allows climb and shoot, aro while climbing, climbing with impetuous etc. So overall it is much better to have climb plus over just just the basic climb action.
This is a good perspective but all of those could have been fixed within climb. I’m unsure why climbing plus needed the special mention of being unable to combine it with a horizontal surface move (screenshots at the end).
@@the_infinitygamer Sadly I think that is to keep things simple and avoid confusion. Especially if you are in a mixed unit of long move, short move with plus. that way it works exactly like the diagram for climb but with added bonuses. However since the offending complications are actually with base climb it just adds to issue. imo.
The main element I take issue with the is inability to blend skills - which sits outside of climb as a skill. I don’t understand why a climbing plus unit can’t do a vertical move and a horizontal move like they could in N4. I’m also struggling to see how the updates to climb impact this.
@@the_infinitygamer I guess I was just hoping they would simplify them but they kinda doubled down and made them one step more complicated from the outset on top of not letting you use climb plus and move. the fact that climbing up you ignore any lip on the structure but have to take that into consideration on the way day is may main hang up. why is it one action to go up but two to come down the other side. The climbing rules are a bit goofy all the way around.
![Juno: New Origins | Atraitus Exploration Co. | Episode 175 [Conclusion]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q5gofxIE4pw/mqdefault.jpg)
I am playing really A LOT of infinity from n5 launch and I have to say I’m actually happy with the new climbing plus from a balance point of view. As it stands right now I think they wanted to have only the super jump units to be highly mobile and fast, while climbing plus units are more focused on efficiently using roofs and buildings to gain advantageous positions. For sure there is a big change from the n4 version but I don’t think in a negative way
That’s a perspective I hadn’t considered, well raised. Do you think that could still be achieved by enabling fireteams to move as well as the C+ unit? Or enabling the C+ unit to combine a climb with a move?
@@the_infinitygamer right now I think CB went safe writing the new fire team rules after the disaster of n4. Already in n4 c+ was the bad version of super jump and I think the direction we’re going is the one where c+ will be more and more a nieche skill that’s good to have but you’re not looking forward it. At the moment I feel like it’s good for the game that fire team have bad access to movement skill like super jump and c+ as you can make good attack pieces linkable in fire teams without any problems or making them too broken, the choice to run up a wall into a roof should be carefully pondered like it is now. while making fire team even more efficient could lean to the same problem we had in n4
Thanks for doing the update video. I liked you using the figures to show the skill. I’d like to see more of this! I’d like if you did a lot of short “how to” videos. Like throwing smoke for MSV for instance. I mean like 5 min or less short. I know it, but it would be something I can tell new people to go look at!
That’s an excellent suggestion and I will definitely do more of these for N5 for sure!!
@@the_infinitygamer Awesome! A weekend of just showing making bunch of short videos and month of editing lol. Things I think that would be good: Moving around a corner to shoot and back out of sight, doing a Coordinated order, Super jump with shooting, using surprise shot or CC. How Decoys work, vaulting, etc.
Just took out my N3 rulebook to check how the rule worked back then. And basically it just changed a climb to a short skill, which as per the rules for climb in N3 would mean strictly speaking it would operate exactly how it does currently BUT in the example for C+ they have a Reaktion Zond bot with MOV6-4 move 2" towards a wall and then continue it's movement 4" up the wall. Which is how everyone played it.
I think CB have messed this up because they changed climb and jump to flat values of 6". This seems like a way to avoid boosting unit speed. I think they should revert to climb and jump being based off of MOV value. IMO There was nothing wrong with that and climbing up and down should've awkward.
If anything the simplest fix would have been to eliminate climbing as a skill and simply have move on a verticle surface cost x2 MOV. Then climbing plus could just simply ignore that.
I agree with you here. I can’t put my finger on exactly what they’ve done to make this mess but one of the numerous changes has made something that worked really well in N4 now quite bad. I wonder if it was the introduction of basic short skills…
@@the_infinitygamer Something you might be getting hung up on is that short actions (basic or otherwise) can be interrupted by other short actions. Just as a Move action can be interrupted to make a Discover action and then the move can be continued to to get behind cover, a Move can use part of the distance to reach a wall, be interrupted by a Climb+ to reach the top, and continue with the rest of the Move. At least that's my interpretation of it. Where it really fails is with teams using a mix of skills.
sadly yes... rules as written are really bad at the moment for Climbing Plus, among other things. Thank you for bringing this to light. I think we need way, way more videos, and content in general, bringing all the issues of N5 to focus, as waiting for usually 6 months for FAQ from CB could be really bad for the game.
Looking for a new topic to break your brain... look up the look up the Schrödinger's cat which is a basic move skill at the moment. Since you can now cut corners while moving, if you have cut the said corner, at the moment you are passing the corner itself how do you place your silhouette and what is the size of the silhouette at that specific moment. Why is this relevant you may ask :) For S2 models it's often not, but if an S7 TAG cuts that corner and I am trying to figure out the line of fire for ARO or if the TAG is in ZoC it becomes really really important :)
Another great one is if you can or can not remove the 2 orders from the player going first if he has only 10 orders. Rules, as written, say you have to have less than 10 orders in a list, like on your printed paper, but you can not remove the orders until they are generated, so... yeah... if you have 2 hidden deployment units and 1 tactical awareness unit, at this time, it's really on the tournament organizer to decide how we play it :)
Great content mate, keep it up :)
I love your suggestion of exploring corner cutting, especially as most people wouldn’t have tokens to place for transparency in a game situation!
I did try and cover the confusion about stripping orders in the video below. I’m still on the fence about how they intend for this to be played but I hope it’s that it’s only visible orders that apply.
N5 rules confusion - New Limited Insertion (command token use)
th-cam.com/video/BEbYits6vwE/w-d-xo.html
This happened because of the Zeta. Let’s be 100% real.
Instead of just taking C+ away from the zeta they killed the skill for everyone.
The zeta, in N4 C+, was an absolutely insane unit that honestly was often unfair in what it could achieve with the use of C+.
It was a beast, one I enjoyed using. But if you’re right the fix would have been to take C+ off the Zeta and give it something else. Not break the skill for everyone.
6:07 You are missing “while moving on a vertical surface or~”. You use short skill ‘move’ on a vertical surface.
Exactly this, so it enables for example Dodge while being attacked on a vertical surface. It is BAD, but not THAT BAD.
Oh so you can climb and dodge, for example. But not climb and move. I mean, a dodge still isn’t great as it’s half your MOV.
@the_infinitygamer And you can use your first basic short skill with climbing+ to climb to the top of the building and land on the horizontal surface, and use second basic short skill to move.
I don’t think you can. It explicitly says ‘except move’ - unless I missed something else?
@@the_infinitygamer the interpretation hinges around "while moving on a vertical surface". The current interpretation we seem to be using and the other commenter seems to agree on, is that after the climb you are on an horizontal surface so now you can declare Move. Which to be honest maker a LOT of sense. Including for example Move first (as it should, Basic Short Skills get declared first) and then Short Skill Climb with the second skill declaration. Else that also cannot be done...
6:00 While you are on a vertical surface, you cannot declare move, only climb + another short skill.
You’re correct - I focused too much on the first half and brain had fizzled out by the second half of the sentence.
I'm guessing that CB saw the complaints about the Zeta being too good and redesigned C+ around that. The problem being that the Zeta can survive not having C+ be as good as it was, but the whole viability of other units hinged on C+ being as good as it was for order efficiency.
Excellent point. I also think it’s easier to balance a unit than a skill.
I think climbing plus should be like n4... worked perfectly, but keep jumping from n5... mobility skills open new pathways in many weird and fun ways
I agree completely!
We have been playing it as you describe it here since N5 launched. I don't understand the nerf yet, to be honest, especially not being able to follow throu with the remainder of the 6in after landing in the horizontal surface. I would believe it is a conscious nerf the moment I believe horizontal superjumping 8in for some units was also a deliverate conscious decision...
It's not another short skill to complete the climb and go from vertical to horizontal. The examples in the rulebook are very clear that the flip at the end back to horizontal is measured as part of the 6 inches of climb. You don't need to stop at the top and then spend a short skill just to flip
Also, I think jump needs to require your silhouette in height and then the 8-8 horizontal jump is taken care of.
I'm not sure this is a climbing plus issue. Reading over climbing plus it only has benefits over a standard climb. All of the issues you talked about stem from the base climb skill. while I agree that it is ....... not great, I don't think it was a change directed at dialing back Climbing Plus specifically so much as complicating basic climb had the domino effect of making climb plus not feel as good. While dealing with all the mentioned issues with climb, climb plus makes it quicker, allows climb and shoot, aro while climbing, climbing with impetuous etc. So overall it is much better to have climb plus over just just the basic climb action.
This is a good perspective but all of those could have been fixed within climb. I’m unsure why climbing plus needed the special mention of being unable to combine it with a horizontal surface move (screenshots at the end).
@@the_infinitygamer Sadly I think that is to keep things simple and avoid confusion. Especially if you are in a mixed unit of long move, short move with plus. that way it works exactly like the diagram for climb but with added bonuses. However since the offending complications are actually with base climb it just adds to issue. imo.
The main element I take issue with the is inability to blend skills - which sits outside of climb as a skill. I don’t understand why a climbing plus unit can’t do a vertical move and a horizontal move like they could in N4. I’m also struggling to see how the updates to climb impact this.
@@the_infinitygamer I guess I was just hoping they would simplify them but they kinda doubled down and made them one step more complicated from the outset on top of not letting you use climb plus and move. the fact that climbing up you ignore any lip on the structure but have to take that into consideration on the way day is may main hang up. why is it one action to go up but two to come down the other side. The climbing rules are a bit goofy all the way around.
@hightde13 why do you think they changed it bearing in mind it worked so well in N4?
Yeah this sucks I hope they fix it at some point
Same!
You can do 2 basic short skills, so move climbing+ is fine I think.
I think you’re right
Needs to go back to n4
Agree
You can do 2 basic short skills, so move climbing+ is fine I think.