It wasn't "Death to all computers" it was "Death to all *thinking* computers". It was AI that was banned. Think more like the Galactica in BSG. They didn't mind having computers--couldn't get by without them--they just didn't want them networked, because then they might out-think humans and you would have the Cylons all over again.
Being in thrall not to the machines but the men who built the machines is the part of old school SF I’d never thought would come true. But, y’know, Facebook, Twitter etc…
I have been a fan of Dune for 40 years. Your explanations and dissections of the stories have given me such a new perspective on the vastness of the story, the complexities, the systems within systems. Thank you for this.
Keep in mind that during that 50's/60's era there was an assumption that human mental potential was limitless. As we study our biology down to the genetic level, we find that this is not really the case. Maybe after 20,000 years of further evolution and eugenic breeding it could be. But, for now, we have no evidence that things like prescience or genetic memory are even possible. Nor is it truly possible for a human brain to compute to a degree that matches quantum computing, or even conventional binary computing as the technology has advanced.
@@rimacalid6557 Actually, as of last night at least, I saw zero analysis there that is deeper than what Quinn has here, and this one video has opened my eyes to an overall theme I never put together before, even with all of his content. I really like this.
The Bene Gesserit are trying to hide their influence. That is why the Emperor is married to a woman with BG training, has his daughters getting BG training, and has a BG advisor. Plus his wife never bore him sons by order of BG (not sure if they made sure he could never have kids afterwards though)
Although their control over their own initiates is not total, and although their vision they can't predict or engineer event to certain points in time or with certain people. like in the case of jessica , or the missionaria protectiva horribly backfiring.
I feel that the Warner Brothers faction has a huge sway over the entire Dune Universe. Not only can they direct the promoters of the franchise, they can very well take those same promoters down with a quick copyright strike, which, renders said promoter from monetary funding.
Sadly we live in an era where the factions and people of Dune are completely at the mercy of an even worst threat. The arbitrary whims and executive decisions of Warner Bros. Pictures.
I think Dune will be handled well. WB also gave us Harry Potter. DC films were ruined by WB executives wanting MCU 2.0 while director trying something different. For an artist, straight up being told to copy without much input would easily be one of the worst thing ever.
I would argue that, pound for pound, the Bene Gesserit are the most powerful force in the Dune universe. Paul and Leto are products of their efforts and continue their vision along the Golden Path. Though they themselves are unable to see the Golden Path, they seem to have an intuition of it. They discovered the "abyss" of the male line in themselves and understood that only by fathoming it could humanity survive. This is why the Sisterhood inherits Leto's Path after the Scattering: he was their rightful heir, and they are his.
1:28 I love that this quote shows how its not about fear of AI taking over, its fear of humans using AI against other humans and that getting out of hand: "Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines". ITs exactly whats happening with people ignoring all the HUGE groundbreaking moments of AI, the writers guild announcement, AI winning a fine art competition near-flawlessly, the Stable Diffusion AI being able to recreate humans accurate-to-life in minutes, news about AI likely taking over law positions or many jobs in general. And people shrug it off like 'oh well that means we can be free to do more stuff'. Like what? People already shrug of AI taking over writing and artwork, and people are seemingly okay with our art in the future being made with AI, its insane. I just keep thinking of I have No Mouth and I Must Scream, that's not even unrealistic anymore, loitering munitions already exist, so do the mass use of drones, this is not far in the future. People in the fucking 60s were writing wild dystopias that they never would think is in our future, and its happening now. Human art has literally been wiped out with AI and we do nothing, we say nothing, we just fucking distract ourselves with the comforts and leisure of our computers.
1. The Spacing Guild -- without them, there is no galactic economy. 2. The Fremen -- he who can destroy something, controls it, and if that something is the spice Melange... They just were not aware of their power until Paul Maud'ib showed up. 3. The Bene Gesserit -- power behind (almost) all the thrones. 4. The Tleilaxu -- I suspect they are far more influential in the greater Galaxy (through their Face Dancers, and other means) than people imagine.
@Turk Turkelton Which emperor? Shaddom? He was weak, hiding behind his Sardaukar and the fear of the other Great Houses. He could have easily controlled the Guild if he knew the true secret, that it's not who can CONTROL the spice but who can destroy it that controls the universe.
@@MuantanamoMobile Good point. But I still feel it is a misnomer to call the spacing guild a parasite. It survives on multiple hosts. Without them, there is no travel. If there is no travel, the empire shuts down. Are they most powerful faction? They are up there, imho.
Hey Quinn, I was thinking there's a lot to unpack at the start of Dune. Your videos are really well done and very detailed, but I think there's opportunity to make a crash course video for people who want to see the new movie and have a good understanding of what's going on from the start (without spoiling too much of the plot), but not want to lessen the movie by reading the book first.
Now, that would be The Dream 🍃 we could do a petition for this to happen. WB are energy suckers, vampires really. But they probably don't own all the rights relating to Dune, especially not concerning the editing industry and the books themselves!
I hope the movie is huge and drives tons of viewers to this channel
3 ปีที่แล้ว +5
It's interesting that Herbert needed to find a super-specific solution with a lot of lore to explain how a world might function because a super-specific thing (outlawing computers) he decided. I'd probably just decide that outlawing computers would never work for a space-faring civilization but Herbert just took that as a challenge.
The issue is that you can really nit pick about it. For instance, if they outlawed computers, how did they keep on travelling in space before developing different means? I see it merely as a simple way of shaping the universe into it's form, not necessarily something that should invite deeper thought.
It goes so far back in Fantasy historical lore, with the Priestesses of Avalon, back in the Arthurian legends. It's a staple trope of the genre, present in numerous series.
Sorceresses have atrophied reproductive organs due to magic so there's no way to reproduce. I can agree that they have similarities but their goals are different. The Bene seek the Golden Path. The Lodge of Sorceresses seek to preserve and grow their relationship with magic.
I found it really intersting when I read God Emperor and Heretics how the subtle manipulators and outsiders (Ixians, Tlelaxu and Ben Geserit) became the dominant and most powerful forces by the end of the 4th book and into the 5th. While the great houses were mostly gone by the 4th book and barely relevant by the 5th trying to make a comeback. I also like how the Harokonen family survived all the way until the 4th book with some status. It was a nice little touch to keep the imagination running. I don’t consider the KJA or BH books cannon. Not gate keeping just I think of them as other worlds stories.
I would apply the rule of three to this argument, with Bene Gesserit, IX, and the spacing guild: politics, technology, trade; the manipulation of genetics and collective psychology allowing for political leverage and control. The Tlailaxu and Bene Gesserit shift between competing and coexisting within that role, with the Bene Gesserit winning out completely. But IX is always crucial for their industrial applications, and the Spacing Guild for obvious AI-free transport of goods. Even when they are in the decline in the mythos, they are still crucial in their way. Any factions that involve engineered intellect, or super-smart humans, can all be attributed to the Bene Gesserit, who are potentially the most deplorable of all. They hid their power hungry greed and genocidal ways behind ideology and never fessed up to it. It’s ironic that they end up being the last best hope for humanity, but are the most dangerously fanatic of them all, simply for the fact that they convince themselves of their perceived superiority, all to the end objective of perpetual survival. But isn’t that human though…
Quinn! Keep up these great Dune videos! I never read the books and Dune lore is really cool handed out in segments rather than a 3 hour movie that only captures tidbits anyway.
Quinn, keep it up!!!! I have watched your dune videos for 3 years and you're 100% responsible for my reading the first three books. Have you ever noticed how your earlier, longer dune videos have a tonal similarity to David Lynch's Dune? I think of Everitt McGill saying 'Paul Mu'adib" with such diction, and you have that same delivery. They both give me the same vibe, and so i think of your channel as canon
Funny how the Shadows’ philosophy was actually proven correct in Babylon 5. The great struggle did, in the end, unify the younger races into a stronger and more cohesive force able to hold their own with the First Ones.
@@seanwieland9763 true, they were stronger but the way they won was by forming a cooperative force to all work together, so the Vorlons strategy was part of it.
I loved B5 growing up. Watched it all again more recently (few years ago). The main takeaway was that both the Vorlon AND Shadow were simultaneously right and wrong. Like Sheridan said at the end, they were like kids fighting over a sandbox, and the younger races didn't need them anymore.
They had great technological abilities but they didn't really rule the human universe. The Ixians were very isolationist and secretive. Nor were they trusted all that much.
What about those houses that went renegade and fled the Imperium to parts unknown in the Universe ? Left alone for centuries they could have developed into an enormous power perhaps even surpassing that of the Imperium.
Don't forget the Ix. Pretty much all technological progress comes from the Ixians. But they're completely neutral. Even though their technology could allow them to wield great power, they stay out of the power struggles and focus entirely on science and technology.
The idea of the space navigators is genius. Most Science fiction just left out how warp type drives would navigate thru the cosmos with black holes, supernovas, astroid belts etc...
Paul Atreides (in first draft manuscript): "But I thought mentat training had to start during infancy, and the subject couldn't be told because it...okay guys, I get it. Ha ha, you really had me going there for a minute." ("fkn jerks!")
(Paul leaves the room.) Leto: What a thundering dumbass... Thufir: Sire, shall we?... Leto: Yes, yes... Cancel the rest of the training! What a waste of time and resources... Why couldn't I have a daughter instead? I could send her to BG school and marry her to someone smart and powerful! Oh, well...
This inspired a thought.. All of the competition and political posturing for control was an illusion to only deliver communion as steward and messenger to that which maintained absolute control the entire time.. the Makers, of creation and destruction. Sheeesh.. thats some deep, poignant allegory, Frank
One of my favorite themes in the Dune saga is the exploration of the potential of human abilities. How close can we actually get to mental capabilities? How much of the Bene Gesserit skills can be achieved?
Pretty close if you consider our tech extensions of ourselves rather than separate. Never understood to anti-tech reading of these stories when it's entirely possible to take the bio-computers of Frank's and nod quietly to oneself that the people in the setting don't actually understand they haven't gotten rid of computers they've just given them different skins. It's like someone convincing us a new model of car isn't really a car cause it doesn't run on gas. Doesn't matter if you call them mentats or computers they are the same thing and serve the same purpose and the story would be the same with or without that linguistic trick. "No thinking machine".....that's a delusional statement made by a people who do not understand the words they say. We are machines. We are sacks of chemistry. Having an origin from self-replicating protein strands (inorganic things) means either the Buttlerian Jihad was waged on false pretenses or the machines weren't really the thing the species needed to be fighting against.
@@radaro.9682 I can see how the leaders in Dune have fallen into the same trap with their mentats as their predecessors did with thinking machines. The problem still stands though. Any addiction is a weak point. The more we rely on our phones for example to store information the more we rely on them. More importantly, we rely on those who provide them and the attendant services. With training, perhaps humanity can enjoy these tools without having needing them. If we fail to advance our own human software while relying on external devices, that path leads to dumber humans.
@@jamesmaples1255 And now you e hit it. It's the "those that provide them" thing. We need decentralized resource distribution and horizontal power structures. If we don't invest that level of power in any one person it's hard to be controlled. But what do you mean "advance our own human software"? We have largely removed natural selection as a pressure. Without which we don't change physically. If you want your body to have a particular skill set you need the ability, time, and knowledge to be able to practice. Access to coaches or mentors help but I not sure what you in invision when you say that. I'm pretty convinced we as a species will advance again when we work out how to return to some kind of natural homeostasis and figure out how to stop letting resources accumulate under the thumbs of the few. But from an evolutionary standpoint we've been fairly static for a couple hundred thousand years beyond avg knowledge by generation being pretty linearly correlated with time. Forgive me. I am never good at guessing what others mean so I've gotten in the habit of asking. Thank you for your patience.
@@radaro.9682 For example, our brains have a vast memory capacity that is barely touched. The hardware (your brain) is already there, no further physical evolution needed! The tools and techniques we utilize to make use of this amazing hardware is what i am calling software. As for the decentralization of resources, I admit we have far to go, however if you are privileged enough to have access to the internet, your furthered education (almost free!) Is literally at your fingertips. Use it, not as a crutch, rather, to become the best you possible.
How do we know that the worms aren't actually in control? They might only seem non sentient because they exist in the past and all possible futures at once. They have taken actions and made influences to ensure that they exist eternally. Leto gained some of their understanding by merging with them.
Quinn, if you're looking for another amazing serie to do deep dives, engougly philosophical and profound, please check Bakker Prince of Nothing (there are two trilogies). It's truly underrated and known only to some readers deeply involved in philosophical themes via their fantasy/sci-fi explorations. It's down right your alley and would fit your tastes perfectly. It truly is another masterpiece deserving of your attention! (Keep the good fight going, we're all here to support you and your amazing work!)
Awesome! By the way, I hope you don't get too upset about Warner Bros. They're suits and selfish parties that shouldn't diminish your enthusiasm or pleasure (even though they try).
I find it quite interesting how Herbert played with the stereotypes of males and females. The mentats - pure mathematics (rational thinking), the thleulaxu (spoiler alert) - degrading women into breeding "machines" and the bene gesseret - controlling, using and manipulating relationships with men. In my opinion in the end we see the bene gesseret be the last ones standing so Herbert must have had the opinion that the principles behind their strategies and tactics would be superior.
Its interesting how FH gave his technology achilles heels to emphasise the need to expand human capabilities. However regarding navigation, all they had to do was map out the safe routes and stick to those - no spice or computers required! Of course suspension of disbelief requires how things work be kept rather vague as plot devices in fantasy universes.
"Map out the safe routes" how? How can you predict every possible obstacle on any given path? Imagine just a drive to the store: do you know every car, every puddle, every animal, every piece of junk in the road that you can possible come across? How would even begin to "map" this out? And just a singular example of driving to the store. You expect the Guide to do that with a million+ planets? From EACH planet??
@@theeffete3396 you obviously don't much about astronomy - the stars maintain their relative positions to one another over timescales of millenia. Space is rather big you know! The GAIA astonometry space telescope has mapped out the positions and velocities of over 1 billion stars which enables us to run their motions back and forth like a time machine. And that's with todays tech a mere 35 years after Herbert's death - Dune is supposed to be set 10,000's of years in the future. As I said, its just a plot device - you're not supposed to dwell on it else the whole premise falls apart.
Not really. The whole thing was couched in a type of religious uprising, a "mindless smashing" of machines or anything suspected of being machine. Attach religion to any idea and you can make good people commit unspeakable acts.
@@theeffete3396 I cannot see how something so useful and already widespread can be effectively banned across thousands of worlds. Especially that using machines makes any faction significantly stronger those who do not. It'll be like trying to ban guns/artillery on earth. Hang on. What am I even saying? There's an even more accurate analogy. It'll be like trying to ban *computers* on earth. We do have religious groups on earth like Boko Haram or the Taliban who are broadly against modernity... Which makes them significantly weaker than states who embrace it. Is there any scenario where a group that does not use the most effective modern technology wins a war here on earth? Also even if somehow thinking machines were outlawed somewhat successfully, why in the world would any ambitous power not use it again especially if it grants them a massive advantage? You could argue that the new religion forbids it but this is Humans we're talking about. Christianity forbid raping and plundering but the crusaders did it anyway. People generally bend and twist religion to suit their purposes. Honestly it is completely unrealistic.
What's up Quinn I like your videos so when you make videos I give him all thumbs up I even go back to the videos that I don't watch or I haven't watched and I'll click on them and give them a thumbs-up click on to the next one to the same thing just because you deserve it homie much love keep up the good work
The most important person in the Dune universe is the person who cleans out the spice juice filters and hoses on the Guild Highliners. Cause the Spice must Flow and its time and a half to maintain if something happens outside of normal space folding hours.
Oooh, now we’re getting into some James Burnham, Bertrand DeJouvenal, Carl Schmitt, and Alasdair MacIntyre territory. There’s some great videos by The Distributist and by Auron MacIntyre about this too.
How the hell do you build and fly complex space ships without even a calculator's worth of power, since it seems that even a calculator has too much processing power for the ban on machines? How do they build the space infrastructure to even build one ship without any computers at all? And don't say Mentats: those came later. And even then, to genetically modify someone to become a mental, you would still need an advanced sequencing computer. I get the feeling that there were secretly computers in Dune, but they were so deeply hidden that people stopped recognizing them as such.
Holzman drives were invented during the Butlerian Jihad, so some form of FTL drives must've preceded it. So I would say that the Ixians were the first ones to create computers to replace navigators after the fall of Leto II.
It is an open question how these factions hold power for so many millennia, such that society stagnates. Herbert was so focused on "heroic" characters that he treated the rest of humanity as mindless sheep basically. For example, the absence of AI and robots would actually mean that you would need *more* engineers, not fewer. The idea of an ignorant majority does not work because without automation, human workers would need to be more skilled in order to design, build, operate and maintain the machines that they do use. Guild Heighliners would need vast, technically-skilled, crews to keep them working. Industrial worlds like Giedi Prime would need huge numbers of engineers and technicians to keep their industrial infrastructure running, and to modify it according to changing needs. But that raises the question of how skilled people could be so unambitious as to not challenge their rulers. In real life America, the main reason the South originally resisted both industrialization and large-scale urbanization was because these things were incompatible with a slave labor force. If slaves know how to make their own guns, and have the capability to do so, then they can overthrow their masters.
I hope you aren't going to be disappointed. They get gradually worse. IMHO I would go for the first three (maybe, God Emperor of Dune too) and leave it there
Can you help me? Back in the 70s I was working at NIH. In the wall of my office, I had a Mentat saying, which I xerox copied from a page of Dune. The guidance for Mentats was to focus on what is before one , rather than what is in the mind. This guidance was almost a page in length, but I can’t find it. I assume that it was in an edition published in the 70s. Do you where this guidance is in those later editions?
It's not that there are no computers, it's that there are no thinking computers. True AI naturally, but any computer that uses machine learning as a way of solving problems. Obviously, there are computers like we have today for automating and controlling processes in various machinery. Think of a fairly recent car - most people don't consider them as machines with computers (apart from newest ones with auto-pilots etc), but they have quite a lot for monitoring and controlling various aspects of a car. They are computers, they have programming, they just don't have machine learning algorithms in them.
Quinn, you are totally awesome for your intelligence, enthusiasm, and you are also cute as a button! I'm so happy that WB apparently let up on their self-destructive terror tactics against you, as I saw on your Twitter! Congrats! Are we heading towards an actual Butlerian Jihad? Who knows? But anyway, I appreciate your content immensely, and you, as well!!!
One thing I've never understood is, if shooting a shielded enemy with a laser weapon results in an explosion on par with a tactical nuke, what actually stops the army of one noble house from simply sneaking a couple troops into an enemy formation or factory (one with a shield the other some sort of single use laser pistol) and leveling everything in a one mile radius? I mean I'm sure they'd have some sort of "these places are off limits unless you want your capital planet glassed" treaty, but...
It's a modified version of the Golden Rule. Just insert spice in place of gold: 1) Whoever has the spice makes the rules, and 2) Whoever holds the guns gets the spice.
They produce the spice, but they don't really "control" it. There's no conscious planning, just following their Nature. Then, for long periods of time, centuries, there's spice without the need for the worms.
The idea of "Death to all computers" followed up by "Crap, we still need computers though" might be the most honest part of Dune.
Really comes to fruition when they re-create exactly the same problem as the synchronized worlds with the golden path.
Ikr?
Humans always over-swing the pendulum. Which is why we never find true balance.
It wasn't "Death to all computers" it was "Death to all *thinking* computers". It was AI that was banned.
Think more like the Galactica in BSG. They didn't mind having computers--couldn't get by without them--they just didn't want them networked, because then they might out-think humans and you would have the Cylons all over again.
@@fubaralakbar6800 They weren't networked because the Cyclons could take over the network easily, not because a networked computer could develop AI.
Being in thrall not to the machines but the men who built the machines is the part of old school SF I’d never thought would come true. But, y’know, Facebook, Twitter etc…
The day I read Dune was the day I quit Facebook
On that path lies danger .
Facebook is the mind killer
So say we all
@@kevinmckay1389 I see what you did there.😄
I have been a fan of Dune for 40 years. Your explanations and dissections of the stories have given me such a new perspective on the vastness of the story, the complexities, the systems within systems. Thank you for this.
The central question that Frank Herbert poses is: What if we stopped developing our technologies and started developing ourselves?
Nah, that's just side-effect of his setting.
No, that's just one example of religious fanaticism.
Far too many people answer Herbert's question with, "What? That sounds too much like work; I'd rather get the latest phone apps."
The possibilities are endless.
Keep in mind that during that 50's/60's era there was an assumption that human mental potential was limitless. As we study our biology down to the genetic level, we find that this is not really the case. Maybe after 20,000 years of further evolution and eugenic breeding it could be. But, for now, we have no evidence that things like prescience or genetic memory are even possible. Nor is it truly possible for a human brain to compute to a degree that matches quantum computing, or even conventional binary computing as the technology has advanced.
I love how Dune perfectly dances the line between familiar and Alien, spice, sand worms, eugenic cults, mentats and then there's Paul
😭😭😭
Aye you're on a roll dog. Single handedly fueling the hype.
The hype must flow.
Warner Bros, stpp harassing Quinn and give this guy a medal!
I dont like this movie hype trend, they started to delay movies intentionally to create hype.
There is the Secrets of Dune channel, doing even deeper analysis 👌🏻
@@rimacalid6557 Actually, as of last night at least, I saw zero analysis there that is deeper than what Quinn has here, and this one video has opened my eyes to an overall theme I never put together before, even with all of his content. I really like this.
I want more >40min long talks, because I need them for going sleep - your voice is really calming
check out his playlist "ultimate guide to the dune saga" wherein he discusses all the book in long form
The Bene Gesserit are trying to hide their influence. That is why the Emperor is married to a woman with BG training, has his daughters getting BG training, and has a BG advisor. Plus his wife never bore him sons by order of BG (not sure if they made sure he could never have kids afterwards though)
Exactly like Academia and Journalism - aka The Cathedral - in real-life.
Makes me wonder who they wanted the next emperor to be in their original plan
@@claudeyaz the son of Duke Letos Daughter and Hartonen son…
Although their control over their own initiates is not total, and although their vision they can't predict or engineer event to certain points in time or with certain people.
like in the case of jessica , or the missionaria protectiva horribly backfiring.
@@haukionkannel how? They would have had to have a revolution. The emperor wanted Atreides dead. What was the bene plan for that?
I feel that the Warner Brothers faction has a huge sway over the entire Dune Universe. Not only can they direct the promoters of the franchise, they can very well take those same promoters down with a quick copyright strike, which, renders said promoter from monetary funding.
They are a great threat to the universe and as such must be removed from power peacefully, or they must be destroyed.
@@V2011F He who controls the Brothers, controls the Universe.
Sadly we live in an era where the factions and people of Dune are completely at the mercy of an even worst threat.
The arbitrary whims and executive decisions of Warner Bros. Pictures.
Dc fan here welcome to the club
It could be worse. It could be Disney.
Harkonans: and you thought we were evil.
@@GabrielSantos-uv2fc facts
I think Dune will be handled well. WB also gave us Harry Potter.
DC films were ruined by WB executives wanting MCU 2.0 while director trying something different. For an artist, straight up being told to copy without much input would easily be one of the worst thing ever.
I would argue that, pound for pound, the Bene Gesserit are the most powerful force in the Dune universe. Paul and Leto are products of their efforts and continue their vision along the Golden Path. Though they themselves are unable to see the Golden Path, they seem to have an intuition of it. They discovered the "abyss" of the male line in themselves and understood that only by fathoming it could humanity survive. This is why the Sisterhood inherits Leto's Path after the Scattering: he was their rightful heir, and they are his.
1:28 I love that this quote shows how its not about fear of AI taking over, its fear of humans using AI against other humans and that getting out of hand: "Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines".
ITs exactly whats happening with people ignoring all the HUGE groundbreaking moments of AI, the writers guild announcement, AI winning a fine art competition near-flawlessly, the Stable Diffusion AI being able to recreate humans accurate-to-life in minutes, news about AI likely taking over law positions or many jobs in general. And people shrug it off like 'oh well that means we can be free to do more stuff'. Like what? People already shrug of AI taking over writing and artwork, and people are seemingly okay with our art in the future being made with AI, its insane.
I just keep thinking of I have No Mouth and I Must Scream, that's not even unrealistic anymore, loitering munitions already exist, so do the mass use of drones, this is not far in the future. People in the fucking 60s were writing wild dystopias that they never would think is in our future, and its happening now. Human art has literally been wiped out with AI and we do nothing, we say nothing, we just fucking distract ourselves with the comforts and leisure of our computers.
1. The Spacing Guild -- without them, there is no galactic economy.
2. The Fremen -- he who can destroy something, controls it, and if that something is the spice Melange... They just were not aware of their power until Paul Maud'ib showed up.
3. The Bene Gesserit -- power behind (almost) all the thrones.
4. The Tleilaxu -- I suspect they are far more influential in the greater Galaxy (through their Face Dancers, and other means) than people imagine.
Correction:
1) CHOAM - With them there is no galactic economy.
1.5) Guild - Without them, there is no RELIABLE galactic travel.
@@theeffete3396 C.H.O.A.M is entirely dependent on the Guild though. If the Spacing Guild decides to ditch C.H.O.A.M, the Imperium will collapse.
Wanna say - and this is a gentle jab, Quinn - *Thank You* for using new pictures!
I just love the intro soundtrack, calming
When I read the book I thought the most powerful was the Guild. That was over 40 years ago, when I was a teenager, so that makes me a old nerd. 😂
I bought God Emperor in hardcover in '81 because I couldn't wait for paperback.
@@thedragondemands5186 Seems they are powerful enough to make demands on a emperor. That is a bit more than a parasite.
@@Uthandol Many Parasites can control their hosts to varying degrees. Parasitism is a kind of symbiosis.
@Turk Turkelton Which emperor? Shaddom? He was weak, hiding behind his Sardaukar and the fear of the other Great Houses. He could have easily controlled the Guild if he knew the true secret, that it's not who can CONTROL the spice but who can destroy it that controls the universe.
@@MuantanamoMobile Good point. But I still feel it is a misnomer to call the spacing guild a parasite. It survives on multiple hosts. Without them, there is no travel. If there is no travel, the empire shuts down.
Are they most powerful faction? They are up there, imho.
I’m now fascinated with Dune. I watched David Lynch’s version when I was young but have never read the book, this is going to change.
Good work 🙏
Hey Quinn, I was thinking there's a lot to unpack at the start of Dune. Your videos are really well done and very detailed, but I think there's opportunity to make a crash course video for people who want to see the new movie and have a good understanding of what's going on from the start (without spoiling too much of the plot), but not want to lessen the movie by reading the book first.
I think Quinn should do a new reading of the Dune novels as a new audiobook release
Now, that would be The Dream 🍃 we could do a petition for this to happen.
WB are energy suckers, vampires really.
But they probably don't own all the rights relating to Dune, especially not concerning the editing industry and the books themselves!
I hope the movie is huge and drives tons of viewers to this channel
It's interesting that Herbert needed to find a super-specific solution with a lot of lore to explain how a world might function because a super-specific thing (outlawing computers) he decided. I'd probably just decide that outlawing computers would never work for a space-faring civilization but Herbert just took that as a challenge.
The issue is that you can really nit pick about it. For instance, if they outlawed computers, how did they keep on travelling in space before developing different means? I see it merely as a simple way of shaping the universe into it's form, not necessarily something that should invite deeper thought.
I just realized how closely similar are the "Bene Gesserit" faction with "The Lodge of Sorceresses" from Witcher series.
It goes so far back in Fantasy historical lore, with the Priestesses of Avalon, back in the Arthurian legends.
It's a staple trope of the genre, present in numerous series.
Sorceresses have atrophied reproductive organs due to magic so there's no way to reproduce.
I can agree that they have similarities but their goals are different. The Bene seek the Golden Path. The Lodge of Sorceresses seek to preserve and grow their relationship with magic.
Your on fire today, thanks and keep them coming
Loving all the content.
Glad to see you posting. You sound much better tonight.
I found it really intersting when I read God Emperor and Heretics how the subtle manipulators and outsiders (Ixians, Tlelaxu and Ben Geserit) became the dominant and most powerful forces by the end of the 4th book and into the 5th. While the great houses were mostly gone by the 4th book and barely relevant by the 5th trying to make a comeback.
I also like how the Harokonen family survived all the way until the 4th book with some status. It was a nice little touch to keep the imagination running.
I don’t consider the KJA or BH books cannon. Not gate keeping just I think of them as other worlds stories.
I might read the latter authors books someday, but until I finish book 6 I'm only going to give FH books any credence
@@jr2904
I recommend that approach as well.
I would apply the rule of three to this argument, with Bene Gesserit, IX, and the spacing guild: politics, technology, trade; the manipulation of genetics and collective psychology allowing for political leverage and control. The Tlailaxu and Bene Gesserit shift between competing and coexisting within that role, with the Bene Gesserit winning out completely.
But IX is always crucial for their industrial applications, and the Spacing Guild for obvious AI-free transport of goods. Even when they are in the decline in the mythos, they are still crucial in their way.
Any factions that involve engineered intellect, or super-smart humans, can all be attributed to the Bene Gesserit, who are potentially the most deplorable of all. They hid their power hungry greed and genocidal ways behind ideology and never fessed up to it.
It’s ironic that they end up being the last best hope for humanity, but are the most dangerously fanatic of them all, simply for the fact that they convince themselves of their perceived superiority, all to the end objective of perpetual survival. But isn’t that human though…
Quinn! Keep up these great Dune videos! I never read the books and Dune lore is really cool handed out in segments rather than a 3 hour movie that only captures tidbits anyway.
Give the audiobooks, particularly narrated by Scott brick a try, they’re all available on audible.
Fantastic summary of various elements of Dune saga. Thanks.
Love your commentary, originally, I read the 6 books series in the late 60 or early 70s. You help my memory a lot. Jack, RI, USA
Quinn, keep it up!!!! I have watched your dune videos for 3 years and you're 100% responsible for my reading the first three books. Have you ever noticed how your earlier, longer dune videos have a tonal similarity to David Lynch's Dune? I think of Everitt McGill saying 'Paul Mu'adib" with such diction, and you have that same delivery. They both give me the same vibe, and so i think of your channel as canon
The Vorlons and the Shadows of course :D
Funny how the Shadows’ philosophy was actually proven correct in Babylon 5. The great struggle did, in the end, unify the younger races into a stronger and more cohesive force able to hold their own with the First Ones.
@@seanwieland9763 true, they were stronger but the way they won was by forming a cooperative force to all work together, so the Vorlons strategy was part of it.
I loved B5 growing up. Watched it all again more recently (few years ago). The main takeaway was that both the Vorlon AND Shadow were simultaneously right and wrong. Like Sheridan said at the end, they were like kids fighting over a sandbox, and the younger races didn't need them anymore.
Iceberg surface lvl 1 : padishah emperor or Muad'dib after book 1
lvl 2 : spacing guild, bene gesserit sisterhood
lvl 3 : tleilaxu , ixians
Again I thank you for your devotion to these books and I am still reminded of things forgotten through my reads of the books with your video's.
This site is so bloody interesting. I'm not even a Dune fanboy, but I'm learning so much.
Quinn. Please do audiobooks. Love the lore.
Tbh I would buy directly his audiobooks
He has 'the voice' for it
@@sharmaarjuna2169 A lot of passion for what he talks about. I’d love to make a Dune Audiobook with different TH-camrs doing different characters.
Did I miss the Ixians in this video? They do create the no-ships that break the Guild's monopoly finally, so they end up being quite powerful.
They had great technological abilities but they didn't really rule the human universe. The Ixians were very isolationist and secretive. Nor were they trusted all that much.
I like the pictures from Dune Extended cut :)
11k views and only 1k likes? This is unacceptable. It's time to wage a Butlerian Jihad on the TH-cam algorithm!
Perhaps on those who just consume and then move on
What about those houses that went renegade and fled the Imperium to parts unknown in the Universe ? Left alone for centuries they could have developed into an enormous power perhaps even surpassing that of the Imperium.
It was never stated what was encountered during the scattering of humanity after Leto the Tyrant's death.
5-2-22. Thank you Sir, for continued...
I appreciate it
It has always come down to The Guild, without Interstellar Transportation there is no ”Empire"
Quinn could you please start linking the music you use? It's really good and would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
I like it how you explain in detail on the Dune universe. It makes sense to me
Always a good day when Quinn uploads.
hot idea: when you are reviewing and breaking down the movie in future videos, only use footage from the david lynch version.
The Bene Gesserit really are the headlining act of the entire Dune series.
"Thou shall not make a machine in the likeness of a human's mind.."
...
....
...
Bethesda videogame NPCs get a free pass then in Dune.
I really wonder if my barely functional, decade-old Dell laptop would be regarded as an existential threat by the Butlerian Jihad....😆
@Fremen thanks for analyzing his joke..
Thou shall not make a video in the image of WB trailers - on penalty of YT ex-communication"
WB Bean-counters Bible 2021
Great overview, I love that the final overlords are the least respected of all the humanoids in the Dune universe, the face dancers…🖖🏽
Don't forget the Ix. Pretty much all technological progress comes from the Ixians. But they're completely neutral. Even though their technology could allow them to wield great power, they stay out of the power struggles and focus entirely on science and technology.
The idea of the space navigators is genius. Most Science fiction just left out how warp type drives would navigate thru the cosmos with black holes, supernovas, astroid belts etc...
Your the one who got me interested in the Dune and Hyperion stories. They are much deeper and darker than Star Wars, and far more interesting.
Paul Atreides (in first draft manuscript):
"But I thought mentat training had to start during infancy, and the subject couldn't be told because it...okay guys, I get it. Ha ha, you really had me going there for a minute."
("fkn jerks!")
(Paul leaves the room.)
Leto: What a thundering dumbass...
Thufir: Sire, shall we?...
Leto: Yes, yes... Cancel the rest of the training! What a waste of time and resources... Why couldn't I have a daughter instead? I could send her to BG school and marry her to someone smart and powerful! Oh, well...
This inspired a thought.. All of the competition and political posturing for control was an illusion to only deliver communion as steward and messenger to that which maintained absolute control the entire time.. the Makers, of creation and destruction. Sheeesh.. thats some deep, poignant allegory, Frank
One of my favorite themes in the Dune saga is the exploration of the potential of human abilities. How close can we actually get to mental capabilities? How much of the Bene Gesserit skills can be achieved?
Pretty close if you consider our tech extensions of ourselves rather than separate. Never understood to anti-tech reading of these stories when it's entirely possible to take the bio-computers of Frank's and nod quietly to oneself that the people in the setting don't actually understand they haven't gotten rid of computers they've just given them different skins. It's like someone convincing us a new model of car isn't really a car cause it doesn't run on gas. Doesn't matter if you call them mentats or computers they are the same thing and serve the same purpose and the story would be the same with or without that linguistic trick. "No thinking machine".....that's a delusional statement made by a people who do not understand the words they say. We are machines. We are sacks of chemistry. Having an origin from self-replicating protein strands (inorganic things) means either the Buttlerian Jihad was waged on false pretenses or the machines weren't really the thing the species needed to be fighting against.
@@radaro.9682 I can see how the leaders in Dune have fallen into the same trap with their mentats as their predecessors did with thinking machines. The problem still stands though. Any addiction is a weak point. The more we rely on our phones for example to store information the more we rely on them. More importantly, we rely on those who provide them and the attendant services. With training, perhaps humanity can enjoy these tools without having needing them. If we fail to advance our own human software while relying on external devices, that path leads to dumber humans.
@@jamesmaples1255 And now you e hit it. It's the "those that provide them" thing. We need decentralized resource distribution and horizontal power structures. If we don't invest that level of power in any one person it's hard to be controlled. But what do you mean "advance our own human software"? We have largely removed natural selection as a pressure. Without which we don't change physically. If you want your body to have a particular skill set you need the ability, time, and knowledge to be able to practice. Access to coaches or mentors help but I not sure what you in invision when you say that. I'm pretty convinced we as a species will advance again when we work out how to return to some kind of natural homeostasis and figure out how to stop letting resources accumulate under the thumbs of the few. But from an evolutionary standpoint we've been fairly static for a couple hundred thousand years beyond avg knowledge by generation being pretty linearly correlated with time. Forgive me. I am never good at guessing what others mean so I've gotten in the habit of asking. Thank you for your patience.
@@radaro.9682 For example, our brains have a vast memory capacity that is barely touched. The hardware (your brain) is already there, no further physical evolution needed! The tools and techniques we utilize to make use of this amazing hardware is what i am calling software. As for the decentralization of resources, I admit we have far to go, however if you are privileged enough to have access to the internet, your furthered education (almost free!) Is literally at your fingertips. Use it, not as a crutch, rather, to become the best you possible.
It just dawned on me... with your excellent narrative voice, why haven't you been a guest host for Jeopardy?
How do we know that the worms aren't actually in control? They might only seem non sentient because they exist in the past and all possible futures at once. They have taken actions and made influences to ensure that they exist eternally. Leto gained some of their understanding by merging with them.
Quinn, if you're looking for another amazing serie to do deep dives, engougly philosophical and profound, please check Bakker Prince of Nothing (there are two trilogies).
It's truly underrated and known only to some readers deeply involved in philosophical themes via their fantasy/sci-fi explorations.
It's down right your alley and would fit your tastes perfectly.
It truly is another masterpiece deserving of your attention!
(Keep the good fight going, we're all here to support you and your amazing work!)
I hit “like” before the vid really starts every time
As a child, I loved the Books. After the Movie, I abandoned all interest. Thanks to you, my fascination has been rekindled. Thank you.
Awesome! By the way, I hope you don't get too upset about Warner Bros. They're suits and selfish parties that shouldn't diminish your enthusiasm or pleasure (even though they try).
I find it quite interesting how Herbert played with the stereotypes of males and females. The mentats - pure mathematics (rational thinking), the thleulaxu (spoiler alert) - degrading women into breeding "machines" and the bene gesseret - controlling, using and manipulating relationships with men.
In my opinion in the end we see the bene gesseret be the last ones standing so Herbert must have had the opinion that the principles behind their strategies and tactics would be superior.
Another great video, thanks Quinn!
If you can’t beat them, use them. I’m a big fan.
Your voice skills are amazing. Perfection in Anounciating.
I'm somewhat familiar with dune lore..... because of your channel ❤️
Its interesting how FH gave his technology achilles heels to emphasise the need to expand human capabilities. However regarding navigation, all they had to do was map out the safe routes and stick to those - no spice or computers required!
Of course suspension of disbelief requires how things work be kept rather vague as plot devices in fantasy universes.
"Map out the safe routes" how? How can you predict every possible obstacle on any given path? Imagine just a drive to the store: do you know every car, every puddle, every animal, every piece of junk in the road that you can possible come across? How would even begin to "map" this out? And just a singular example of driving to the store. You expect the Guide to do that with a million+ planets? From EACH planet??
@@theeffete3396 you obviously don't much about astronomy - the stars maintain their relative positions to one another over timescales of millenia. Space is rather big you know! The GAIA astonometry space telescope has mapped out the positions and velocities of over 1 billion stars which enables us to run their motions back and forth like a time machine. And that's with todays tech a mere 35 years after Herbert's death - Dune is supposed to be set 10,000's of years in the future.
As I said, its just a plot device - you're not supposed to dwell on it else the whole premise falls apart.
Thanks for your content. Love your passion for Frank Herbert's material. Very engaging too. On ya!
That thinking machines were outlawed is probably the most unrealistic part of Dune.
Not really. The whole thing was couched in a type of religious uprising, a "mindless smashing" of machines or anything suspected of being machine. Attach religion to any idea and you can make good people commit unspeakable acts.
@@theeffete3396 True.
I mean people probably would do it. But could you live without them? I dunno.
@@theeffete3396 I cannot see how something so useful and already widespread can be effectively banned across thousands of worlds.
Especially that using machines makes any faction significantly stronger those who do not.
It'll be like trying to ban guns/artillery on earth.
Hang on. What am I even saying? There's an even more accurate analogy. It'll be like trying to ban *computers* on earth.
We do have religious groups on earth like Boko Haram or the Taliban who are broadly against modernity... Which makes them significantly weaker than states who embrace it. Is there any scenario where a group that does not use the most effective modern technology wins a war here on earth?
Also even if somehow thinking machines were outlawed somewhat successfully, why in the world would any ambitous power not use it again especially if it grants them a massive advantage?
You could argue that the new religion forbids it but this is Humans we're talking about. Christianity forbid raping and plundering but the crusaders did it anyway. People generally bend and twist religion to suit their purposes.
Honestly it is completely unrealistic.
Who rules the universe? Great question...I think it's 42.
No, 47
I'm keeping my towel handy
Throwing shade at the algorithm decades ago
WB: Your talking about dune againe. Quick we must protect ..., eh something. I dont know what, but we must protect it.
✌The Salt must flow🧂🧂🧂
Rome: …agreed.
Polamd: agreed.
I see some rough saline ahead, mates!
What's up Quinn I like your videos so when you make videos I give him all thumbs up I even go back to the videos that I don't watch or I haven't watched and I'll click on them and give them a thumbs-up click on to the next one to the same thing just because you deserve it homie much love keep up the good work
The most important person in the Dune universe is the person who cleans out the spice juice filters and hoses on the Guild Highliners.
Cause the Spice must Flow and its time and a half to maintain if something happens outside of normal space folding hours.
Oooh, now we’re getting into some James Burnham, Bertrand DeJouvenal, Carl Schmitt, and Alasdair MacIntyre territory. There’s some great videos by The Distributist and by Auron MacIntyre about this too.
Very interesting video, thanks for sharing. 👍
How the hell do you build and fly complex space ships without even a calculator's worth of power, since it seems that even a calculator has too much processing power for the ban on machines?
How do they build the space infrastructure to even build one ship without any computers at all? And don't say Mentats: those came later. And even then, to genetically modify someone to become a mental, you would still need an advanced sequencing computer.
I get the feeling that there were secretly computers in Dune, but they were so deeply hidden that people stopped recognizing them as such.
Holzman drives were invented during the Butlerian Jihad, so some form of FTL drives must've preceded it. So I would say that the Ixians were the first ones to create computers to replace navigators after the fall of Leto II.
It is an open question how these factions hold power for so many millennia, such that society stagnates. Herbert was so focused on "heroic" characters that he treated the rest of humanity as mindless sheep basically. For example, the absence of AI and robots would actually mean that you would need *more* engineers, not fewer. The idea of an ignorant majority does not work because without automation, human workers would need to be more skilled in order to design, build, operate and maintain the machines that they do use. Guild Heighliners would need vast, technically-skilled, crews to keep them working. Industrial worlds like Giedi Prime would need huge numbers of engineers and technicians to keep their industrial infrastructure running, and to modify it according to changing needs. But that raises the question of how skilled people could be so unambitious as to not challenge their rulers. In real life America, the main reason the South originally resisted both industrialization and large-scale urbanization was because these things were incompatible with a slave labor force. If slaves know how to make their own guns, and have the capability to do so, then they can overthrow their masters.
Frank Herbert: Ginaz
Quinn: Jenis . . . .
Loved the first Dune novel. I'm going to purchase the rest of the Frank Herbert novels soon and finish it 😃🐓
Sweet:)
I hope you aren't going to be disappointed. They get gradually worse. IMHO I would go for the first three (maybe, God Emperor of Dune too) and leave it there
That's the question of the entire series.
Can you help me? Back in the 70s I was working at NIH. In the wall of my office, I had a Mentat saying, which I xerox copied from a page of Dune. The guidance for Mentats was to focus on what is before one , rather than what is in the mind. This guidance was almost a page in length, but I can’t find it. I assume that it was in an edition published in the 70s. Do you where this guidance is in those later editions?
I really love your channel man.
Your work is amazing! Keep it up!
Thanks for these videos
No form of computing technology?
abacus? slide rule? gunter scale? Lots more.
It's not that there are no computers, it's that there are no thinking computers. True AI naturally, but any computer that uses machine learning as a way of solving problems. Obviously, there are computers like we have today for automating and controlling processes in various machinery. Think of a fairly recent car - most people don't consider them as machines with computers (apart from newest ones with auto-pilots etc), but they have quite a lot for monitoring and controlling various aspects of a car. They are computers, they have programming, they just don't have machine learning algorithms in them.
So if you own a $10 calculator from Walmart and you get caught in The Dune universe with it……..Automatic Death sentence
Everyone reads Dune as people should fear the charismatic leader. I read it as the charismatic leader should fear the people.
Nicely Done!
Great work!
Thank you. A brilliant upoad.
Love Dune - looking forward to the new flick!
Quinn, you are totally awesome for your intelligence, enthusiasm, and you are also cute as a button! I'm so happy that WB apparently let up on their self-destructive terror tactics against you, as I saw on your Twitter! Congrats! Are we heading towards an actual Butlerian Jihad? Who knows? But anyway, I appreciate your content immensely, and you, as well!!!
One thing I've never understood is, if shooting a shielded enemy with a laser weapon results in an explosion on par with a tactical nuke, what actually stops the army of one noble house from simply sneaking a couple troops into an enemy formation or factory (one with a shield the other some sort of single use laser pistol) and leveling everything in a one mile radius? I mean I'm sure they'd have some sort of "these places are off limits unless you want your capital planet glassed" treaty, but...
The Great Convention prevents it.
@@theeffete3396 Thank you, so its a Guild "behave or you can't use our ships" situation then?
Absolutely amazing 🤩👍🙌
He who controls the Spice controls the universe...
...
...
spoiler alert: It's the worms
Spice for thought. Hehehe get it? Spice, food. I'll see myself out.
@@AndresPluss On that path lies danger.
It's a modified version of the Golden Rule. Just insert spice in place of gold:
1) Whoever has the spice makes the rules, and
2) Whoever holds the guns gets the spice.
He who can destroy a thing control's a thing
They produce the spice, but they don't really "control" it.
There's no conscious planning, just following their Nature.
Then, for long periods of time, centuries, there's spice without the need for the worms.
Really good summary but now I have to read Dune again for the 100th time :)
he who controls the spice, rules.