Amazing talk, i went from dont caring-memeing on malekith to greatly appreceiate his lore and character arc, all thanks to the passion and knowledge that you two transmit. Amazing video, hope to see more of this style for more characters,races and topics!
Thank you Andy Law for taking the time to geek out about Warhammer. It's amazing how one of the biggest contributors and creator of Warhammer can sit down and spend so much fun time with the fans.
Amazing video - I love how Andy continually reminds us that elves do not abide by human logic and morals. I didn't really think that big daddy McEdgeLord could be so interesting and nuanced.
absolutely love that you guys have become such friends you both have amazing enthusiasm and love for the world we are all here for and would absolutely love to see more of you two do more lore stuff and i might be speaking for myself but i don't really care if the videos you guys make are several hours long for all i care you guys can go for 10 hours and I would still be listning. man what i would do to get an actual Malekith animated series similar to castlevania or something. Would love to hear you guys talk and discuss big events aswell as characters.
I have a newfound appreciation for Malekith and his arc now. Just like the star wars prequels, there was so much potential with the redemptive arc, but was just sloppily handled. The end times could have been his attempt to earn back the trust of his kinsmen after all the betrayals and scheming. The trip in the warp could have been his wakeup call to the real threat, and just as he wins the support of the high and wood elves, grombrindal strikes and kills him. dooming not only the elves but the dawi as well.
48:06 and 1:29:31 Malekith hates Chaos 59:30 How it felt being an old world native during the age of Elven colonization. 1:06:20 Why a lot of big human cities in the Old World are ports. 1:12:20 Snori Whitebeard Great Unclean one story 1:15:23 Hill Dwarves and dwarf/elf old world. 1:27:58 Malekith did not know his mother was the creator of the Ulthuani cult of pleasure. 1:35:23 Malekith discovers his mother created the pleasure cults 1:36:50 Malekith can't kill his own mom for understandable reasons, even though she's a borderline Slaanesh cultist. And what keeps telling her son starts to stick and he begins to distrust Phoenix King Bel Shanar. 1:45:20 Morathi being a seares who can see in the future to some extent helps her manipulate people. 1:46:50 The tragedy of Malekith and Bel Shanar, (BELL SHANAR WOULD HAVE MADE MALIKITH 🐦🔥 PHEONIX KING, HE WAS GONNA TELL HIM THAT BUT MAKEKITH POISENED HIM BEFORE HE COULD 😭) 2:05:06 Deaths of Makekiths first Dragon and first black dragon. 2:19:50 The Civil war Malekith and Morathi caused split Ulthuan in half on two different sides in every elven kingdom. 2:27:00 A ton of Ulthuan is lost due to Malekith's faction's faled spell 2:30:00 How the Dark Elves truly traditioned from basic elves to dark elves. 2:32:31 Elven underworld gods, and Areth Kale vs Asuryan and her army of undead elves in her realm who want to take over Asuryan's position as king of the Elven Gods. 2:37:15 ⭐Elves have the opposite of adhd, they can ficus on something to such an extent that everything else around them fades away in their minds. 2:39:39 Malekith Depression arc 😢 😞, wue sad one piece music 🏴☠️ 2:40:18 HUNG MOMENT 🐎🏹, THE STEPPE KHANS WILL RAIN AGAIN (But Malakith defeates them really badly because Malekith and dark elves hate humans and see them as barbaric ants infestinng their land, pests to be eliminated ir exploited... Dark Elves are very cruel) 2:42:30 Why dark elves sacrifice so many people, because they found out that they can make someone else pay the price for using dark magic (which usually reuires the user to pay a price) 2:43:55 Dark elves use so mauch Dar (Dark) magic that they have corrupted Naggaroth to the point where demons can managest there and survive. Dark Elves see these demons and Chaos as a resource to be harnest. 2:46:05 The Dark Elves still see themselves as the good guys. 2:46:42 Malekith and THE WAR OF THE BEARD 2:51:30 Malekith's wars with Ulthuan after the war of the beard, and his obsession with rebuilding the fortress of Anlec snd reclaiming what he once had. 2:52:07 Also Malekith resents the Elven Gods a lot and only pays lip service to them at best. 2:55:00 Druchii (Dark Elves) holds onto parts of Ulthuan for very long periods of time. 2:55:48 Important fact about Everchosens and Malekith and Morathi getting Hung and other Chais tribes and warriors to team up with them and invade Ulthuan. 2:57:00 Malekith binds 🌸 N'kari and uses him as basically a bloodhound, and N'kari hates him and starts to hate the line of Aenerion even more than he already did. 3:00:00 Malekith in the Realm of Chaos, he basically spent an eternity there based on how Chaos works. He is arguably the oldest living person in the Warhammer world because of this. 3:03:30 Malekith... Eternity King 3:15:30 What happened to Malekith's wife. Makekith was so mad about Morathi getting Elesara (Malekith's Wife) assassinated that he sends out a decree forbidding anyone from helping her when Areal and Orion sieges her tower in Grond because Ariel sister is Elesara. 3:21:50 Malekith breaking his oath with Snorin broke reality and made Snorii a Ancestor God of Vengeance called the White Dwarf who walks around the wirld settling grudges, specifically Dwarven Grudges but maybe other people's grudges to? 3:32:16 Malekith makes a lot of bargins with Daemos to further his own power abd because of some of these bargins Epidemius shows up demanding a payment from Malekith. Eventually Malekith gets tured of fighting him because he cant get rid if him and his just offers him a couple thousand dark elves souls which epidemius accepts.
Please keep this going. Listening to you guys laugh and wax on about lore feels like watching two loremasters talking about the nature of the warhammer world.
I think the most interesting thing to what Andy says at the end of the stream about Grombrindal killing Malekith when Malekith is helping to contain the chaos gates and save the world for being an oathbreaker. It could be argued that he would be wrong. Malekith needed to go through that entire long journey to become the elf that could fulfill his oath to Snorri and thus by doing all of his actions, including the war of the beard. Malekith had helped to bring both himself and the world to a point where Malekith's oath to keep what they had built safe - which seemed like peace and a world without chaos into being. Through becoming powerful enough, as a world, that chaos could be eradicated and thus the world become peaceful. Obviously, you could make many counter arguments as well but I think it would be very interesting as a possible perspective in that it somewhat parallels Malekiths own rejection of his god Asurian and Khaine. In that, Snorri as a god, would then be rejecting the material world and mortals required for his oath to be completed. Which I think could be a fascinating grey area to end within. Cheers for the stream!
Its kind of weird in that Morathi and Malekith are probably two of my favourite Warhammer Fantasy villains, but I find Dark Elves in general kind of boring. Grombrindal dooming the world by killing Malekith would have been really thematic, but I'm not sure it would be a wise idea to make a character who is kind of supposed to be a mascot for Games Workshop as a whole be responsible for the destruction of the world. And I think it would've been really divisive among Dwarf fans, half of which would hate being responsible for the end of the world and the other half would just go "the apocalypse is a small price to pay to settle a grudge".
I listened for 3,5 hours and love Malekith even more. Man o man what a lore, tnx for the small details Lsotek and Andy Law. More of this bigger lore stories.
This deconstruction of malekith and the dark elves brought a hyperfocused and new perspective to the race. Thank you both for this detailed information, it cleared many misconceptions i had.
1) Andy becoming a Lorebeard is amazing 2) Mannfred video? Not Vladdy Daddy? 3) I stand by End Times novels 1-2 actually being good and far better than the GW canon campaign book versions of events (apart from the fall of Marienburg). 4) This was brilliant, just so you both know. 3 hour deep dives in podcast form are exactly what I need to get me through work.
A correction 1:47:00 belshanaer has a dispute with malekith on who would lead the army? And he wouldnt choose malekith and chooses Imrik instead, this pisses malektih immensely and he tries to exact revenge with morathi. He poisons a chalice then proceeds to suffocate him with pillow.
Loved it ! I hope this is the new format for Lorebeards ! Such formats applied to things and characters like Archaon, Vladdy Daddy, Settra, the great war against Chaos, the rise of sigmar... Damn this duo would shine !
Though I am not really an elf fan usually, I have to say that this was a great stream. I definitly have a new perspective on Malekith and the elven factions now.
I just finished the Sundering and I’m starting the war of vengeance right now. I’m scared to watch this in fear of spoilers. I know this will be a good episode though!
A fun pet theory, I like to think that when Malekith poisoned Bel Shanar, I like to think that Morathi either lied or convinced Malekith that a) Bel Shanar was actually complicit in the pleasure cults and he’s been profiting from them or b) Bel Shanar is too weak to stop Chaos and Morathi finally gets Malekith to believe that. I much prefer this being the reason Malekith finally betrays his king, rather than it just being a pure power play. And once he is rejected by the flame of Asuryan, he then basically breaks down due to the failure.
Do you think the flame of asuryan burnt malekith because he was carrying the curse of khaine which had infeted his soul, aenerion accepted khaine AFTER asuryan whereas malekith was pre infected so was he burnt becasue he was under the influence of another?
Please do more of these types of videos, it was an absolute pleasure to listen to this while painting, with 2 people who have such a huge passion and love for this setting and its characters! Would love to see this type of discussion for Greenskins, or Beastmen that would be awesome! Hope this type of content happens again in the future, take care i really look forward to it
Makekith is the beginning and the continuation of my loyalty to Fantasy. His complexity is staggering. In the novel with his name, the scene were he makes Alandrian a noble and ruler of the colony before he goes into the chaos wastes shows a tenderness, appreciation, and gentleness not seen towards any other elf. It's a juxtaposition to his entire character throughout the Sundering novels and in all other writings. His character, end times excluded, is easily the best written in the whole setting.
Great video, I always love how passionate you guys get about the lore. I do think you guys are very generous with Malekith and the dark elves as a whole though. I get we shouldn’t try to ascribe human morality to the elves, but even by Elf morality, the delfs are pretty f’ed up. Even during the time of Aenarion a lot of elves were put off by what he was becoming, and Malekith takes that a step further. I also think saying The Sundering is a war with no bad guys or good guys is generous. Malekith had just killed the king, all the princes, and was trying to conquer the continent in a very brutal fashion, I find it hard to say he wasn’t the bad guy. The Dark Elves are definitely well written in that you can understand the steps in logic that lead them to where they end up, but they intentionally change their logic and delude themselves into whatever they need to believe to think they’re right. But maybe this is just the dwarf lover in me, and my eternal grudge against the Oath Breaker
A small correction for the circlet of iron section: Malekith had already met the dwarves before he found the circlet and i think even Snorri Whitebeard even died before that. Malekiths descent did actually coincide with his finding of the circlet.
Malekith executes his Mother, he pacifies Ulthuan and then becomes Phoenix King. He enters the flames and dies and gets resurrected with Asuryan tempering the curse of Khaine. When the Orcs return in a giant Waagh he heads the full elven army in assistance to the dwarves. Together the orcs are pushed back, both realms prosper. And then he dies and his children inherit the Throne and it all goes to shit
Malekith "didn't walk the proper paths to attain that power". Stephen R Donaldson has a lot to say about the perils of unearned power/ knowledge, especially in the Covenant books. Also, really digging Malekith as a tragic figure shaped by psychology and abuse, rather than a two-dimensional cardboard cutout "big bad". In some ways, Morathi seems like a Lady Macbeth figure- "the hand that rocks the cradle, rules the throne"- without the conscience/regrets?
I have always felt that the Circlet of Iron was exactly as Andy says; an ancient tool of something like the Old Ones, the Ancient Dragons, or even Things that Came Before (because that city is a legitimate mystery- and it should be. I don’t think it’s an Old One artifact… the city is far too cold. And they clearly don’t like cold) But tools like that are just not meant for mortals. And though it is not evil… it was never meant for what it is used for.
To this discussion, on Malekith, I imagine killing elves for the first time probably didn’t help with the whole curse of Khaine thing. Recall, if every god except Slaanesh, Khaine’s whole thing is basically “I HATE ELVES”. He loves killing his own kind, so killing elves probably made the curse of Khaine worse for Malekith, leading to his descent into madness.
I would have had malakith confront grombrindal before becoming the phoenix king. The thought being that he needs to confront his past to be the king he needs to be. Obviously grombrindal kills him, but malakith knows this going into the confrontation and accepts that. Then his followers put his body into the fire of Asurian and he rises as the phoenix king.
My understanding is that N'kari killed & used Aenarions wife & children to deliberately force out of Aenarion sensations that neither had experienced, N'kari knew he couldn't kill Aenarion but N'kari knew of something that could but N'kari needed Aenarion to "pick it up" this is where the murder of his family comes in, it's a win win for N'kari, remove Aenarion & experience a sensation from him the likes of which might never be experienced again.
So Aenarion doomed his bloodline, which was severely diminished at the time, i.e. not a huge number of individuals to worry about. And they didn't just either kill them all or just not let them reproduce? Surprisingly human of them to covet the power instead of keeping the curse contained.
I think the biggest weakness of the Warhammer settings is that it's trying too hard to be grim dark. There are so many plot points and narrative threads that could have been taken in much better directions (Like Malekith being reborn resplendent) but they can't do that because it's not dark and edgy enough.
While I love Malekith as a character, I can't say the same for his portrayal in WH3, same for Morathi tbh. Also, am I the only one who preferred his 6th ED design?
Those 2 very different interpretations by Andy of Morathi's actions- whether a political schemer, or someone powerfully in love- I find fascinating because it is such an *adult* and *real world* thing. One set of "factual truths", and 2 very different "mythic truths". And who is to to that it was not some combination of those motivations too!
I’ll keep saying this til the day I die, but it’s frustrating that 40K fanboys, not actual 40K fans, you guys are cool, but 40K fanboys, are the loudest voice in the room. 40K fanboys ALWAYS AND ONLY EVER quote the novels with high end feats. THEY NEVER EVER quote the novels showing a maximum of low end feats. They gaslight by pretending that no maximum low end feats novels even exist. 40K fanboys NEVER REALLY explain why ONLY the novels showcasing high end feats count, and NEVER REALLY explain what mechanism they use to make that decision. They NEVER explain why only the BL novels showing high end maximum feats are the gold standard for 40K. 40K fanboys completely ignore the game lore, completely forget that the 40K game and the game lore is the core of 40K and the BL books are derivative, completely ignore the BL novels showing low end feats as the maximum, completely ignore that officially GW has no real canon policy for 40K, Fantasy, or any other of their products, and completely ignore or perhaps don’t know about the this TH-cam interview from a former GW employee who wrote for them, stating that unofficially the BL books are seen as non-canon by GW. Here’s the statement made at about 1:53 in this interview: “I'd also note, just in general, when we're writing books about Warhammer, which I have done more times than I care to mention, you tend to find that most of the novels are considered not to be canon. That is perhaps something that will be alien to many of you out there but that's because Black Library was removed from the studio and often took stories in different directions to which the studio might have preferred. And when the studio itself returns to material that perhaps Black Library have took in a different direction, they often ignore it, take the bits they like, and go 'that bit's cool, that bit's cool, and then they just rewrite it into something that matches what they require for the story they're telling. If someone was brought in to say 'justify Malekith' that's what would happen - they would look at the story and say yeah I'm sure it says something in there, but that's just a story, this is our truth." This really puts a nail in the coffin to the Megaton, Gigaton, Teraton, Petaton, Exaton, Zettaton, Yottaton yield argument for good.
Either Kouran or Morathi i suppose. And Asuryan for some bizarre reason as he cursed every phoenix king until malekith was done with his thousands of years lasting "character development"
Honestly I tried ... this whole video comes off as a Malekith's fanboy and his enabler trying to justify whatever explicitly and unequivocally horrible thing a fictional character did (from mass murder, to attempetd genocide, to the literal summoning of demons - but hey... it's ok, because Maelkith REALLY hated chaos... so much that he knew how to send his soul into the realm of chaos to escape incineration). We are told that Malekith should have won every battle he fought (that he lost instead) but he was always twarted by literal deus ex machina (btw, from the original lore it's quite clear Teclis is a better mage than he is and Tyrion is a better sworsdman) and of course in the (moronic) end times when this demon summoning mass murderer (it's ok becuase he thought he was right... who are we to judge? He's does not adhere to our morality!) somehow gets pardoned by Asuryan, that's all fine and dandy.
Eh, if they are too sympathetic, your bitterness towards the character makes you too much of a hater... people could be equally reductionist and dismiss you as a High Elf fanboy in turn. Many are fond of, and empathetic towards Darth Vader too, it doesn't make them "enablers" of genocide when they quibble with e.g. some of the prequel-writing. It is all just fiction. Malleable fiction as well, as Malekith was defined by whoever wrote him that day. Besides, what were you expecting in his own dedicated character analysis? Malekith is meant to be the **tragic** villain archetype. Expressing that there are, or should be, moral complexity, tragedy, wrong choices, etc. is what such an analysis is going to be about.
@@Jordan-ob7nz I’m actually a dwarf player so there’s little chance of me criticizing this video out of HE sympathy. The problem is the lore has always been quite clear about how Malekith and Morathi were absolutely horrible creatures (in Morathi’s case the lore from HE 5th Ed hints extremely heavily at her being a Slaanesh cultist from the very beginning who wanted to get near Aenarion) and this video is basically all about justifying them, up to claiming the End Times were good for the elves when in truth it was a complete subversion of the previous lore established by way better authors than the hack Gav Thorpe (William King for one). Claiming that End Times:Khaine makes sense when it is character assassination and cheap subversion of expectations from cover to end in incomprehensible to me (Imrik betrays the HE to side with Malekith, ALITH ANAR kills Tyrion to SAVE MALEKITH, Asuryan accepts Malekith as the legitimate Phoenix King, Malekith marries Alarielle… need I go on?)
@@Tulkash01 Ahaha! Well, we can accuse you of general anti-elgi bias then! /s We'd be here all day if we debated old vs new editions, which authors understood the character, if the crappy End Times writing is to be acknowledged, etc. So let's not open that can of worms. But yes, absolutely, of course Malekith has displayed **enormous** capacity for evil throughout the lore. Not contesting that. What I'm saying is that you are far too aggressive towards the idea of a more complex portrait of Malekith. I'm sure you agree deep down that it is boring to dismiss a villain as "just evil"? It makes any fiction richer to look more deeply into evildoers, to look for nuances, to be relativist, to weigh outside factors, etc.
@@Jordan-ob7nz I’m not against a deeper portrayal of Malekith. I’m against people who claim it is all fine and dandy that everything is forgiven (“Nothing is forgotten, nothing is Forgiven” Alith Anar) and the retcon of him becoming Phoenix King by will of Asuryan is supposedly a “good development “.
@@Tulkash01 Ah ok, but then your misgivings seem to be really about the End Times writing and not Malekith specifically? The End Times writers mishandled the characterization of almost every legendary lord and hero in WHFB. Almost nobody is happy with the actions and fates of characters in the End Times. Lore enthusiasts like Law and Sotek are in the awkward seat of simply trying to better contextualize what is unfortunately canon. I'm pretty sure if they got to rewrite things, they absolutely would.
I love Andy's enthusiasm to applying that deep, depth of knowledge he carries around.
Amazing talk, i went from dont caring-memeing on malekith to greatly appreceiate his lore and character arc, all thanks to the passion and knowledge that you two transmit. Amazing video, hope to see more of this style for more characters,races and topics!
Thank you Andy Law for taking the time to geek out about Warhammer. It's amazing how one of the biggest contributors and creator of Warhammer can sit down and spend so much fun time with the fans.
Thanks, andy's explanations are very in-depth and good.
Aren't they?! Dude's so gifted
@@loremasterofsotek Awwww...
Amazing video - I love how Andy continually reminds us that elves do not abide by human logic and morals. I didn't really think that big daddy McEdgeLord could be so interesting and nuanced.
absolutely love that you guys have become such friends you both have amazing enthusiasm and love for the world we are all here for and would absolutely love to see more of you two do more lore stuff and i might be speaking for myself but i don't really care if the videos you guys make are several hours long for all i care you guys can go for 10 hours and I would still be listning.
man what i would do to get an actual Malekith animated series similar to castlevania or something.
Would love to hear you guys talk and discuss big events aswell as characters.
This was a great idea. Andy is such a natural (and great) storyteller and provides soooo much nuance. Great job LMOS
34:30 Malekith enters the story.
I have a newfound appreciation for Malekith and his arc now. Just like the star wars prequels, there was so much potential with the redemptive arc, but was just sloppily handled. The end times could have been his attempt to earn back the trust of his kinsmen after all the betrayals and scheming. The trip in the warp could have been his wakeup call to the real threat, and just as he wins the support of the high and wood elves, grombrindal strikes and kills him. dooming not only the elves but the dawi as well.
Amazing. Absolutely amazing. I love this lore format, especially the overtime hahaha. Excellent character choice too, I'm excited for the next one!
48:06 and 1:29:31 Malekith hates Chaos
59:30 How it felt being an old world native during the age of Elven colonization.
1:06:20 Why a lot of big human cities in the Old World are ports.
1:12:20 Snori Whitebeard Great Unclean one story
1:15:23 Hill Dwarves and dwarf/elf old world.
1:27:58 Malekith did not know his mother was the creator of the Ulthuani cult of pleasure.
1:35:23 Malekith discovers his mother created the pleasure cults
1:36:50 Malekith can't kill his own mom for understandable reasons, even though she's a borderline Slaanesh cultist. And what keeps telling her son starts to stick and he begins to distrust Phoenix King Bel Shanar.
1:45:20 Morathi being a seares who can see in the future to some extent helps her manipulate people.
1:46:50 The tragedy of Malekith and Bel Shanar, (BELL SHANAR WOULD HAVE MADE MALIKITH 🐦🔥 PHEONIX KING, HE WAS GONNA TELL HIM THAT BUT MAKEKITH POISENED HIM BEFORE HE COULD 😭)
2:05:06 Deaths of Makekiths first Dragon and first black dragon.
2:19:50 The Civil war Malekith and Morathi caused split Ulthuan in half on two different sides in every elven kingdom.
2:27:00 A ton of Ulthuan is lost due to Malekith's faction's faled spell
2:30:00 How the Dark Elves truly traditioned from basic elves to dark elves.
2:32:31 Elven underworld gods, and Areth Kale vs Asuryan and her army of undead elves in her realm who want to take over Asuryan's position as king of the Elven Gods.
2:37:15 ⭐Elves have the opposite of adhd, they can ficus on something to such an extent that everything else around them fades away in their minds.
2:39:39 Malekith Depression arc 😢 😞, wue sad one piece music 🏴☠️
2:40:18 HUNG MOMENT 🐎🏹, THE STEPPE KHANS WILL RAIN AGAIN (But Malakith defeates them really badly because Malekith and dark elves hate humans and see them as barbaric ants infestinng their land, pests to be eliminated ir exploited... Dark Elves are very cruel)
2:42:30 Why dark elves sacrifice so many people, because they found out that they can make someone else pay the price for using dark magic (which usually reuires the user to pay a price)
2:43:55 Dark elves use so mauch Dar (Dark) magic that they have corrupted Naggaroth to the point where demons can managest there and survive. Dark Elves see these demons and Chaos as a resource to be harnest.
2:46:05 The Dark Elves still see themselves as the good guys.
2:46:42 Malekith and THE WAR OF THE BEARD
2:51:30 Malekith's wars with Ulthuan after the war of the beard, and his obsession with rebuilding the fortress of Anlec snd reclaiming what he once had.
2:52:07 Also Malekith resents the Elven Gods a lot and only pays lip service to them at best.
2:55:00 Druchii (Dark Elves) holds onto parts of Ulthuan for very long periods of time.
2:55:48 Important fact about Everchosens and Malekith and Morathi getting Hung and other Chais tribes and warriors to team up with them and invade Ulthuan.
2:57:00 Malekith binds 🌸 N'kari and uses him as basically a bloodhound, and N'kari hates him and starts to hate the line of Aenerion even more than he already did.
3:00:00 Malekith in the Realm of Chaos, he basically spent an eternity there based on how Chaos works. He is arguably the oldest living person in the Warhammer world because of this.
3:03:30 Malekith... Eternity King
3:15:30 What happened to Malekith's wife. Makekith was so mad about Morathi getting Elesara (Malekith's Wife) assassinated that he sends out a decree forbidding anyone from helping her when Areal and Orion sieges her tower in Grond because Ariel sister is Elesara.
3:21:50 Malekith breaking his oath with Snorin broke reality and made Snorii a Ancestor God of Vengeance called the White Dwarf who walks around the wirld settling grudges, specifically Dwarven Grudges but maybe other people's grudges to?
3:32:16 Malekith makes a lot of bargins with Daemos to further his own power abd because of some of these bargins Epidemius shows up demanding a payment from Malekith. Eventually Malekith gets tured of fighting him because he cant get rid if him and his just offers him a couple thousand dark elves souls which epidemius accepts.
Andy, speaking of Malekith: "What was wrong, was his refusal of what it was to be an Elf".
Food for thought.
Please keep this going. Listening to you guys laugh and wax on about lore feels like watching two loremasters talking about the nature of the warhammer world.
I think the most interesting thing to what Andy says at the end of the stream about Grombrindal killing Malekith when Malekith is helping to contain the chaos gates and save the world for being an oathbreaker. It could be argued that he would be wrong. Malekith needed to go through that entire long journey to become the elf that could fulfill his oath to Snorri and thus by doing all of his actions, including the war of the beard. Malekith had helped to bring both himself and the world to a point where Malekith's oath to keep what they had built safe - which seemed like peace and a world without chaos into being. Through becoming powerful enough, as a world, that chaos could be eradicated and thus the world become peaceful.
Obviously, you could make many counter arguments as well but I think it would be very interesting as a possible perspective in that it somewhat parallels Malekiths own rejection of his god Asurian and Khaine. In that, Snorri as a god, would then be rejecting the material world and mortals required for his oath to be completed. Which I think could be a fascinating grey area to end within.
Cheers for the stream!
A good counter argument in my opinion is that malekiths 8000 year long character weakened the world way more than it could ever be strengthened by him
This was a fantastic watch/listen Sotek & Andy! Greatly enjoyed it, thank you.
Absolutely loved this deep dive! Some great perspectives to think about. Definitely a lot I didn't know about Malekith.
This was incredibly enjoyable. The passion you two have is unmatched. Would love to see this return for characters lige Archaon or Settra
Its kind of weird in that Morathi and Malekith are probably two of my favourite Warhammer Fantasy villains, but I find Dark Elves in general kind of boring.
Grombrindal dooming the world by killing Malekith would have been really thematic, but I'm not sure it would be a wise idea to make a character who is kind of supposed to be a mascot for Games Workshop as a whole be responsible for the destruction of the world. And I think it would've been really divisive among Dwarf fans, half of which would hate being responsible for the end of the world and the other half would just go "the apocalypse is a small price to pay to settle a grudge".
Try the darkblade novels, those really brought the Druchii to life for me
I listened for 3,5 hours and love Malekith even more. Man o man what a lore, tnx for the small details Lsotek and Andy Law. More of this bigger lore stories.
This deconstruction of malekith and the dark elves brought a hyperfocused and new perspective to the race. Thank you both for this detailed information, it cleared many misconceptions i had.
Thank you! Malekith has been my favorite character for so long and this video just made me want to reread the books. Amazing video, love the energy.
1) Andy becoming a Lorebeard is amazing
2) Mannfred video? Not Vladdy Daddy?
3) I stand by End Times novels 1-2 actually being good and far better than the GW canon campaign book versions of events (apart from the fall of Marienburg).
4) This was brilliant, just so you both know. 3 hour deep dives in podcast form are exactly what I need to get me through work.
Aw man, you guys made me feel kinda bad for Morathi of all people!
That was the plan. Morthai is awesome. Nuff said. ;)
A correction 1:47:00 belshanaer has a dispute with malekith on who would lead the army? And he wouldnt choose malekith and chooses Imrik instead, this pisses malektih immensely and he tries to exact revenge with morathi. He poisons a chalice then proceeds to suffocate him with pillow.
Loved it !
I hope this is the new format for Lorebeards ! Such formats applied to things and characters like Archaon, Vladdy Daddy, Settra, the great war against Chaos, the rise of sigmar... Damn this duo would shine !
Though I am not really an elf fan usually, I have to say that this was a great stream. I definitly have a new perspective on Malekith and the elven factions now.
I just finished the Sundering and I’m starting the war of vengeance right now. I’m scared to watch this in fear of spoilers. I know this will be a good episode though!
you can watch about the first hours at the very least but if you finished it not sure there is much new you would learn anyways.
We only cover VERY broad strokes about various topics so you don't have to worry very much about spoilers!
A fun pet theory, I like to think that when Malekith poisoned Bel Shanar, I like to think that Morathi either lied or convinced Malekith that a) Bel Shanar was actually complicit in the pleasure cults and he’s been profiting from them or b) Bel Shanar is too weak to stop Chaos and Morathi finally gets Malekith to believe that. I much prefer this being the reason Malekith finally betrays his king, rather than it just being a pure power play. And once he is rejected by the flame of Asuryan, he then basically breaks down due to the failure.
Do you think the flame of asuryan burnt malekith because he was carrying the curse of khaine which had infeted his soul, aenerion accepted khaine AFTER asuryan whereas malekith was pre infected so was he burnt becasue he was under the influence of another?
So good stream! Thanks both of you. 👏
This was really cool. Would love to see a dedicated end times version.
Please do more of these types of videos, it was an absolute pleasure to listen to this while painting, with 2 people who have such a huge passion and love for this setting and its characters! Would love to see this type of discussion for Greenskins, or Beastmen that would be awesome! Hope this type of content happens again in the future, take care i really look forward to it
Makekith is the beginning and the continuation of my loyalty to Fantasy. His complexity is staggering. In the novel with his name, the scene were he makes Alandrian a noble and ruler of the colony before he goes into the chaos wastes shows a tenderness, appreciation, and gentleness not seen towards any other elf. It's a juxtaposition to his entire character throughout the Sundering novels and in all other writings. His character, end times excluded, is easily the best written in the whole setting.
For the dark elves Chaos is a ladder
worlds best second monitor content while I play total war, I really appreciate you both
Yahs, a Lore and Law chat abiut my favourite character in Warhammer Fantasy! Definitely playing some Malekith tww campaign whilst listening to this.
This video may have made Malekith my favorite character
Love this format. Who will the next character be?
Sucha good talk, I really appreciate it.
Great video, I always love how passionate you guys get about the lore. I do think you guys are very generous with Malekith and the dark elves as a whole though. I get we shouldn’t try to ascribe human morality to the elves, but even by Elf morality, the delfs are pretty f’ed up. Even during the time of Aenarion a lot of elves were put off by what he was becoming, and Malekith takes that a step further. I also think saying The Sundering is a war with no bad guys or good guys is generous. Malekith had just killed the king, all the princes, and was trying to conquer the continent in a very brutal fashion, I find it hard to say he wasn’t the bad guy. The Dark Elves are definitely well written in that you can understand the steps in logic that lead them to where they end up, but they intentionally change their logic and delude themselves into whatever they need to believe to think they’re right. But maybe this is just the dwarf lover in me, and my eternal grudge against the Oath Breaker
Made me care about Malekith never expected great video
omg 4 hours of nonstop lore
Great episode
Loving this, feeling now like doing a Dark Elves campaign : )
Great vid. I know WHFB is your main bag Sotek, but discussing aos lore with 2+tough would be super cool
A small correction for the circlet of iron section: Malekith had already met the dwarves before he found the circlet and i think even Snorri Whitebeard even died before that.
Malekiths descent did actually coincide with his finding of the circlet.
My fav character out of all wh fantasy ty for that vid 😍
Awesome video
Is there a fanfiction showing what would have happened if Malekith kept his oath with Snorri Whitebeard?
Malekith executes his Mother, he pacifies Ulthuan and then becomes Phoenix King.
He enters the flames and dies and gets resurrected with Asuryan tempering the curse of Khaine.
When the Orcs return in a giant Waagh he heads the full elven army in assistance to the dwarves.
Together the orcs are pushed back, both realms prosper.
And then he dies and his children inherit the Throne and it all goes to shit
Malekith "didn't walk the proper paths to attain that power".
Stephen R Donaldson has a lot to say about the perils of unearned power/ knowledge, especially in the Covenant books.
Also, really digging Malekith as a tragic figure shaped by psychology and abuse, rather than a two-dimensional cardboard cutout "big bad".
In some ways, Morathi seems like a Lady Macbeth figure- "the hand that rocks the cradle, rules the throne"- without the conscience/regrets?
great talk.
Is Malus Darkblades Sword the Widowmaker?
I have always felt that the Circlet of Iron was exactly as Andy says; an ancient tool of something like the Old Ones, the Ancient Dragons, or even Things that Came Before (because that city is a legitimate mystery- and it should be. I don’t think it’s an Old One artifact… the city is far too cold. And they clearly don’t like cold)
But tools like that are just not meant for mortals. And though it is not evil… it was never meant for what it is used for.
Is Malekth a stronger mage than Mazdamundi?
Nope
Very good work.
If you were to insert images or a visual timeline from time to time it would be even cooler.
Anyone have timestamps? Please?
Timestamps added
@@loremasterofsotek thanks
To this discussion, on Malekith, I imagine killing elves for the first time probably didn’t help with the whole curse of Khaine thing. Recall, if every god except Slaanesh, Khaine’s whole thing is basically “I HATE ELVES”. He loves killing his own kind, so killing elves probably made the curse of Khaine worse for Malekith, leading to his descent into madness.
hnng my fav character in warhammer!
I would have had malakith confront grombrindal before becoming the phoenix king. The thought being that he needs to confront his past to be the king he needs to be. Obviously grombrindal kills him, but malakith knows this going into the confrontation and accepts that. Then his followers put his body into the fire of Asurian and he rises as the phoenix king.
My understanding is that N'kari killed & used Aenarions wife & children to deliberately force out of Aenarion sensations that neither had experienced, N'kari knew he couldn't kill Aenarion but N'kari knew of something that could but N'kari needed Aenarion to "pick it up" this is where the murder of his family comes in, it's a win win for N'kari, remove Aenarion & experience a sensation from him the likes of which might never be experienced again.
They need to get Andy in to voice a character for Vermintide or Total War, some sort of excitable wizard maybe :p
So Aenarion doomed his bloodline, which was severely diminished at the time, i.e. not a huge number of individuals to worry about. And they didn't just either kill them all or just not let them reproduce? Surprisingly human of them to covet the power instead of keeping the curse contained.
Addaioth is the Elven god of fire, not Astarioth
I think the biggest weakness of the Warhammer settings is that it's trying too hard to be grim dark. There are so many plot points and narrative threads that could have been taken in much better directions (Like Malekith being reborn resplendent) but they can't do that because it's not dark and edgy enough.
29:34 man this is funny
My people
While I love Malekith as a character, I can't say the same for his portrayal in WH3, same for Morathi tbh. Also, am I the only one who preferred his 6th ED design?
Blame Morathi and the curse of Khaine he inherited from his father Aenarion.
Those 2 very different interpretations by Andy of Morathi's actions- whether a political schemer, or someone powerfully in love- I find fascinating because it is such an *adult* and *real world* thing. One set of "factual truths", and 2 very different "mythic truths". And who is to to that it was not some combination of those motivations too!
so what i am hearing is that morathi is a footbal mom karen
The real question the people need answered is how to play Malekith as a vampire in WHFRP 😂
Seriously though, love listening to these long form discussions from you both 👍
a factual neckbeard
Does Andy have something against in universe sexism?
I’ll keep saying this til the day I die, but it’s frustrating that 40K fanboys, not actual 40K fans, you guys are cool, but 40K fanboys, are the loudest voice in the room. 40K fanboys ALWAYS AND ONLY EVER quote the novels with high end feats. THEY NEVER EVER quote the novels showing a maximum of low end feats. They gaslight by pretending that no maximum low end feats novels even exist.
40K fanboys NEVER REALLY explain why ONLY the novels showcasing high end feats count, and NEVER REALLY explain what mechanism they use to make that decision. They NEVER explain why only the BL novels showing high end maximum feats are the gold standard for 40K.
40K fanboys completely ignore the game lore, completely forget that the 40K game and the game lore is the core of 40K and the BL books are derivative, completely ignore the BL novels showing low end feats as the maximum, completely ignore that officially GW has no real canon policy for 40K, Fantasy, or any other of their products, and completely ignore or perhaps don’t know about the this TH-cam interview from a former GW employee who wrote for them, stating that unofficially the BL books are seen as non-canon by GW. Here’s the statement made at about 1:53 in this interview:
“I'd also note, just in general, when we're writing books about Warhammer, which I have done more times than I care to mention, you tend to find that most of the novels are considered not to be canon.
That is perhaps something that will be alien to many of you out there but that's because Black Library was removed from the studio and often took stories in different directions to which the studio might have preferred.
And when the studio itself returns to material that perhaps Black Library have took in a different direction, they often ignore it, take the bits they like, and go 'that bit's cool, that bit's cool, and then they just rewrite it into something that matches what they require for the story they're telling.
If someone was brought in to say 'justify Malekith' that's what would happen - they would look at the story and say yeah I'm sure it says something in there, but that's just a story, this is our truth."
This really puts a nail in the coffin to the Megaton, Gigaton, Teraton, Petaton, Exaton, Zettaton, Yottaton yield argument for good.
Love to see pationate people talk about their stuff! How can you not want to play Malekith after that!?
Who's the Malekith's simp?
Either Kouran or Morathi i suppose.
And Asuryan for some bizarre reason as he cursed every phoenix king until malekith was done with his thousands of years lasting "character development"
Honestly I tried ... this whole video comes off as a Malekith's fanboy and his enabler trying to justify whatever explicitly and unequivocally horrible thing a fictional character did (from mass murder, to attempetd genocide, to the literal summoning of demons - but hey... it's ok, because Maelkith REALLY hated chaos... so much that he knew how to send his soul into the realm of chaos to escape incineration).
We are told that Malekith should have won every battle he fought (that he lost instead) but he was always twarted by literal deus ex machina (btw, from the original lore it's quite clear Teclis is a better mage than he is and Tyrion is a better sworsdman) and of course in the (moronic) end times when this demon summoning mass murderer (it's ok becuase he thought he was right... who are we to judge? He's does not adhere to our morality!) somehow gets pardoned by Asuryan, that's all fine and dandy.
Eh, if they are too sympathetic, your bitterness towards the character makes you too much of a hater... people could be equally reductionist and dismiss you as a High Elf fanboy in turn. Many are fond of, and empathetic towards Darth Vader too, it doesn't make them "enablers" of genocide when they quibble with e.g. some of the prequel-writing. It is all just fiction. Malleable fiction as well, as Malekith was defined by whoever wrote him that day. Besides, what were you expecting in his own dedicated character analysis? Malekith is meant to be the **tragic** villain archetype. Expressing that there are, or should be, moral complexity, tragedy, wrong choices, etc. is what such an analysis is going to be about.
@@Jordan-ob7nz I’m actually a dwarf player so there’s little chance of me criticizing this video out of HE sympathy. The problem is the lore has always been quite clear about how Malekith and Morathi were absolutely horrible creatures (in Morathi’s case the lore from HE 5th Ed hints extremely heavily at her being a Slaanesh cultist from the very beginning who wanted to get near Aenarion) and this video is basically all about justifying them, up to claiming the End Times were good for the elves when in truth it was a complete subversion of the previous lore established by way better authors than the hack Gav Thorpe (William King for one). Claiming that End Times:Khaine makes sense when it is character assassination and cheap subversion of expectations from cover to end in incomprehensible to me (Imrik betrays the HE to side with Malekith, ALITH ANAR kills Tyrion to SAVE MALEKITH, Asuryan accepts Malekith as the legitimate Phoenix King, Malekith marries Alarielle… need I go on?)
@@Tulkash01 Ahaha! Well, we can accuse you of general anti-elgi bias then! /s
We'd be here all day if we debated old vs new editions, which authors understood the character, if the crappy End Times writing is to be acknowledged, etc. So let's not open that can of worms. But yes, absolutely, of course Malekith has displayed **enormous** capacity for evil throughout the lore. Not contesting that. What I'm saying is that you are far too aggressive towards the idea of a more complex portrait of Malekith. I'm sure you agree deep down that it is boring to dismiss a villain as "just evil"? It makes any fiction richer to look more deeply into evildoers, to look for nuances, to be relativist, to weigh outside factors, etc.
@@Jordan-ob7nz I’m not against a deeper portrayal of Malekith. I’m against people who claim it is all fine and dandy that everything is forgiven (“Nothing is forgotten, nothing is Forgiven” Alith Anar) and the retcon of him becoming Phoenix King by will of Asuryan is supposedly a “good development “.
@@Tulkash01 Ah ok, but then your misgivings seem to be really about the End Times writing and not Malekith specifically? The End Times writers mishandled the characterization of almost every legendary lord and hero in WHFB. Almost nobody is happy with the actions and fates of characters in the End Times. Lore enthusiasts like Law and Sotek are in the awkward seat of simply trying to better contextualize what is unfortunately canon. I'm pretty sure if they got to rewrite things, they absolutely would.