I was lucky enough to see about half of Dessie's races at the track, and all of them on TV many times, and watch Kauto's whole career too. It's always difficult to compare different eras. One thing you can say with confidence is Kauto was better left handed. But Des was campaigned so differently, carrying 12 stone + to win in any number of top class handicaps, and right handed was basically unbeatable for 5 years. His win in the Racing Post Chase, giving 28lb to Delius, who went on to finish second in the Martel Cup that year, was probably the finest performance I've ever witnessed. Many people still disagree who was better out of Kauto and Denman, and most would agree there wasn't much between them. Denman's finest hour was arguably his second Hennesy off top weight, but he was all out to win there off a mark of 174. Dessie's Racing Post was won almost in a canter off 185. It was a staggering performance from what turned out to be a very well handicapped runner up.
I don't want to have an argument, but this race is one of my favourites. I loved "Dessie". I couldn't be at Kempton that day, so I watched at home. I was screaming my head off all the way up the home straight!! Wonderful memories of a fantastic horse.
Saw Des at two open days after he retired... Fed him some polo mints and had him nip the back of my hand. I won't say I've never washed it since, but... there was certainly something about being in The Presence.
Ok, I'll be honest... Dessie was easily the best I've ever seen - he was so quick, especially for a gold cup winner, and his jumping was breathtaking. Great memories...
Actually recorded as good to soft but it was a bloody bog! The line up is full of household names unlike the glorified handicappers with inflated ratings that the likes of Kauto beat. Nick The Brief had destroyed Carvills Hill at levels yet couldn't live with these. Desert Orchid is the greatest since Arkle.
He was, and still is, a national treasure. I loved him for being so talented, but also being a scrapper, a street-fighter. He reminded me of the very unlucky Pendil who was also quite versatile, and should have won two Cheltenham Gold Cups.
Only backed him a couple of times in his long career but loved to see him win . I remember the reception he got after he won the Irish Grand National. It was if the whole of the country had come to see him. Such a popular horse and such talent.
Yes. I backed him only twice when he won. Once over hurdles when he fell at Kempton,then again at Sandown over Fences,when he was 2/1-joint favourite,with Vodkatini,who refused to race,leaving Desert Orchid to school around in his own time. I still swear Ten Plus would have won that Gold Cup,but not for the fatal error. He was some Horse.
Love Dessie and if you look at what The Fellow did subsequently it makes this look even better. Haven't seen this in 25 years but woo and indeed hoo.....
what upsets me is that people still think that arkle is the greatest steeplechaser ever, I disagree. Think Desert Orchid is, along with golden miller who won the Cheltenham gold up 5 times plus winning a grand national in between, which as you know is two weeks after the gold cup.
JAK HAL his jumps were spectacular & to be fair so were Sprinter Sacres shame no real pictures of G Miller jumping. Mind u back then the fences were harder to jump and the grand national had more fences.
That is because Arkle was the greatest ever. Dessie was great but was arguably inferior to Dawn Run and perhaps Burrough Hill Lad too, and then you also have modern greats like Altior, Denman, Kauto Star and Sprinter Sacre.
p.s. Some stats- Desert Orchid: highest Official Rating: 185; highest RPR 189... Kauto Star: highest OR 193; highest RPR 191. Ratings aren't everything, but they seem to show the two horses closely matched. I'd say Arkle, Flyingbolt, Desert Orchid the post-war top 3. but Kauto Star & Sprinter Sacre not too far behind. Interesting argument anyway..!
There has to be a Dickinson trained Horse among them. Where do you want to go. Browne's Gazette,Badsworth Boy,Silver Buck and Wayward Lad. Money wouldn't buy any of those.
dessie would bury kauto best ive ever seen speed to burn stamina to die for and wins say it all the tough boy would off broke kautos heart .kauto couldnt do the weight carring perfomances off dessie king of kings youl never see one like him again
How do you know Kauto Star could "not do the weight carring perfomances of dessie"? He rarely ran in handicaps and instead ran in Grade 1 events but did win the Old Roan Chase off 11-10 by 21 lengths, which is a limited handicap. And I suspect if Denman only really ran in Grade 1s that you would perhaps have made the same weight carrying claim about him too. None of what I have said here is meant with a confrontational tone and certainly is not a knock of Dessie Orchid, but it is just it is hard to make claims where there is no way of proving them.
This race is so emotional dont forget dessie is nearly 12 here he would have won more than 1 gold Cup if he had raced in that instead of champion chase I believe. his first run in the gold Cup was as a 10 year old when he won so at11 and 12 when he was third no 11 year old wins a gold Cup for a long time though if the ground was heavy he might have won as a 11 yr old though Cheltenham was his least favourite track and arkle was before my time but he looked a fantastic horse on reruns. and kauto star was a great horse round kempton and Cheltenham though like dessie he was better round kempton though 2 gold cups is pretty good going and best mate winning 3 gold cups is exceptional too and now al boom photo whose won 2 gold cups lets not compare because there is no form line between them there all great horses and there are many more
Well they were hardly in the league of Best Mate. Denman could barely perform away from Newbury or Cheltenham, Long Run is not as good as people thought & Imperial Commander was a one season wonder. Those three horses also all comprehensively beat Kauto too. The fact remains Kauto was weak when conceding weight, best proven when veteran Monets Garden crushed him in receipt of just a stone. Dessie beat better than Monet's giving them upto 35lb!
Denman won at four other courses other than Cheltenham or Newbury, five if you include PTP racing. He was also 2nd at Kempton in a KG on a course too flat and distance too short and was upsides two out at Aintree when he fell.
@@eugenemccloskey511 Sabin du Loir beat Desert Orchid at shorter distances. Dessie became less effective at distances less than 3 miles as he got older. Yes Sabin was the same age but he was a 2 and a half mile specialist and did not have many miles on the clock due to injuries. I don't believe Sabin would have won a KG as I don't think he stayed 3 miles. He was a great horse though...he beat Dawn Run and West Tip in the Sun Alliance Novices' Hurdle and won his last race at the age of 14!!!
Stephen Burke. Wrong arkle never gave any horse 3 stone nor could he. Both he and desert orchid gave away 2:1/2 stone. You CANNOT COMPARE HORSES OF DIFFERENT ERAS BECAUSE DISTANCES AND FENCES CHANGE.
@@barbaradyson6951 so true ..... they do same with boxers ie who would win ali vs Tyson...........who knows as different styles different eras even if both in prime and at peak fitness ! .......... instead I'd rather appreciate the talents and enjoy the show wether boxings finest or these beautiful animals ! Arkle dessie to best mate and kauto star ..... all beautiful horses who gave there all yes for our entertainment but also because they loved it !!!! ............. I was 10 watching this race with the old man and appreciate it even more now to see how easliy he won great jumper and great to watch ! ........... who ever would win out the 2 who cares they were both amazing horses who will be remembered forever !! .............. let's hope tomorrow is another great race and all horses and jockeys return safe ! ..........merry Xmas ..........roll on boxing day 😉
Arkle was/is a true great(prob best horse ever), but your off your head thinking he'd give 3 stone and a beating to Dessie. 12 stone on Arkle-9 stone on Dessie...win by 10-15 lengths imo. Also Dessie would've raised his game, like he did in 1989 Gold Cup against Yahoo, jumped right at many fences that day, thus losing ground, also hated the ground, as Simon Sherwood said afterwards. Gave Panto Prince (top class at his best) 23lb and a beating in 1989 Victor Chandler. 12 stone in Irish National-won by 12 lengths. Footnote; Disagree with Arkle's official rating being 23lb superior to Desert Orchid.
@@stopsponge7504 Tyson's trainer Rooney said Ali would win, and of course when the going got tough for Tyson, he resorted to biting ears, trying to break arms and got ko'd. Ali had great will as well as talent. Dessie had enormous heart.
3 of the last 6 horses Kauto Star beat into 2nd (Imperial Commander, Denman, Long Run) were Gold Cup winners. I agree that Desert Orchid was the better horse; but with a nagging doubt that his flamboyant style rather than pure ability leads to this conclusion. Ill-founded claims about horses' form don't help the debate! Kauto and Dessie were the outstanding staying chasers of their generation; beating almost all opposition they faced. Long Run and Denman, "glorified handicappers"..? Hardly.
kauto star was a superstar but dessie had character and charisma and he loved the crowds and im sure he hit top gear when he heard the roar of the crowds approaching the last at kempton, there will never be another desert orchid
@@seanscanlon9067 Hmmm. As good as Kauto Star was, I somehow can't see him winning the Whitbread Gold Cup then returning to Sandown eight months later to win the Tingle Creek Chase. In the 1988/89 season Desert Orchid was the best 3-mile chaser AND the best 2-mile chaser. He was so versatile, the likes of we will probably never see again.
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I was lucky enough to see about half of Dessie's races at the track, and all of them on TV many times, and watch Kauto's whole career too. It's always difficult to compare different eras. One thing you can say with confidence is Kauto was better left handed. But Des was campaigned so differently, carrying 12 stone + to win in any number of top class handicaps, and right handed was basically unbeatable for 5 years. His win in the Racing Post Chase, giving 28lb to Delius, who went on to finish second in the Martel Cup that year, was probably the finest performance I've ever witnessed.
Many people still disagree who was better out of Kauto and Denman, and most would agree there wasn't much between them. Denman's finest hour was arguably his second Hennesy off top weight, but he was all out to win there off a mark of 174. Dessie's Racing Post was won almost in a canter off 185. It was a staggering performance from what turned out to be a very well handicapped runner up.
I don't want to have an argument, but this race is one of my favourites. I loved "Dessie". I couldn't be at Kempton that day, so I watched at home. I was screaming my head off all the way up the home straight!! Wonderful memories of a fantastic horse.
Saw Des at two open days after he retired... Fed him some polo mints and had him nip the back of my hand. I won't say I've never washed it since, but... there was certainly something about being in The Presence.
you are so lucky to see dessie to have him lick your even bite you
There just aren't any words for a horse like this, just a marvel.
Ok, I'll be honest... Dessie was easily the best I've ever seen - he was so quick, especially for a gold cup winner, and his jumping was breathtaking. Great memories...
Tears in my ears, what a beautiful horse
Actually recorded as good to soft but it was a bloody bog! The line up is full of household names unlike the glorified handicappers with inflated ratings that the likes of Kauto beat. Nick The Brief had destroyed Carvills Hill at levels yet couldn't live with these.
Desert Orchid is the greatest since Arkle.
He was, and still is, a national treasure. I loved him for being so talented, but also being a scrapper, a street-fighter. He reminded me of the very unlucky Pendil who was also quite versatile, and should have won two Cheltenham Gold Cups.
Only backed him a couple of times in his long career but loved to see him win . I remember the reception he got after he won the Irish Grand National. It was if the whole of the country had come to see him. Such a popular horse and such talent.
Yes. I backed him only twice when he won. Once over hurdles when he fell at Kempton,then again at Sandown over Fences,when he was 2/1-joint favourite,with Vodkatini,who refused to race,leaving Desert Orchid to school around in his own time. I still swear Ten Plus would have won that Gold Cup,but not for the fatal error. He was some Horse.
Love Dessie and if you look at what The Fellow did subsequently it makes this look even better. Haven't seen this in 25 years but woo and indeed hoo.....
Dessie will always be the king
Guess thats why there is a portrait of him with arkle and red rum💖💘
One of the memorable moments in National Hunt racing.
Very high quality field, on a wet day. Super stuff.
love dessie what a star
+Dawn Keir Classic, classic, Classic, twenty five years ago today. Phenomenal.
As far as style goes, the best performance of his career.
Still makes the hairs on my neck stand up, when he's coming down to the last.
What a race that would of been dessie v kauto over 3m @ Kempton
what upsets me is that people still think that arkle is the greatest steeplechaser ever, I disagree. Think Desert Orchid is, along with golden miller who won the Cheltenham gold up 5 times plus winning a grand national in between, which as you know is two weeks after the gold cup.
babs dyson.....the grey horse lobbing along with ears pricked popping fences with sherwood motionless......not a finer sight in the whole world.......
JAK HAL his jumps were spectacular & to be fair so were Sprinter Sacres shame no real pictures of G Miller jumping. Mind u back then the fences were harder to jump and the grand national had more fences.
Do not be upset, Barbara. Enjoy your love of Desert Orchid, who never had the handicap changed because of his participation.
That is because Arkle was the greatest ever.
Dessie was great but was arguably inferior to Dawn Run and perhaps Burrough Hill Lad too, and then you also have modern greats like Altior, Denman, Kauto Star and Sprinter Sacre.
@Sean Scanlon She is always babbling on that Arkle wasn't the greatest. Anyone with any shred of knowledge knows he was.
Im still amazed at his odds that day.9/4 ..if that was today he'd be 1/5
#whenbookieshadballs
That Gold Cup upset by Norton's Coin was still fresh in the minds.
No way would he be 1/5 when you look at his rivals.
He was getting Old. That's why he was 9/4.
Inmortal.
p.s. Some stats- Desert Orchid: highest Official Rating: 185; highest RPR 189...
Kauto Star: highest OR 193; highest RPR 191. Ratings aren't everything, but they seem to show the two horses closely matched. I'd say Arkle, Flyingbolt, Desert Orchid the post-war top 3. but Kauto Star & Sprinter Sacre not too far behind. Interesting argument anyway..!
There has to be a Dickinson trained Horse among them. Where do you want to go. Browne's Gazette,Badsworth Boy,Silver Buck and Wayward Lad. Money wouldn't buy any of those.
Loved that oul nag
has he been here before??
The Fellow. A great.
dessie would bury kauto best ive ever seen speed to burn stamina to die for and wins say it all the tough boy
would off broke kautos heart .kauto couldnt do the weight carring perfomances off dessie king of kings youl never see one like him again
How do you know Kauto Star could "not do the weight carring perfomances of dessie"?
He rarely ran in handicaps and instead ran in Grade 1 events but did win the Old Roan Chase off 11-10 by 21 lengths, which is a limited handicap. And I suspect if Denman only really ran in Grade 1s that you would perhaps have made the same weight carrying claim about him too.
None of what I have said here is meant with a confrontational tone and certainly is not a knock of Dessie Orchid, but it is just it is hard to make claims where there is no way of proving them.
I reckon Ruby wouldn't be too concerned.
This race is so emotional dont forget dessie is nearly 12 here he would have won more than 1 gold Cup if he had raced in that instead of champion chase I believe. his first run in the gold Cup was as a 10 year old when he won so at11 and 12 when he was third no 11 year old wins a gold Cup for a long time though if the ground was heavy he might have won as a 11 yr old though Cheltenham was his least favourite track and arkle was before my time but he looked a fantastic horse on reruns. and kauto star was a great horse round kempton and Cheltenham though like dessie he was better round kempton though 2 gold cups is pretty good going and best mate winning 3 gold cups is exceptional too and now al boom photo whose won 2 gold cups lets not compare because there is no form line between them there all great horses and there are many more
Well they were hardly in the league of Best Mate. Denman could barely perform away from Newbury or Cheltenham, Long Run is not as good as people thought & Imperial Commander was a one season wonder. Those three horses also all comprehensively beat Kauto too. The fact remains Kauto was weak when conceding weight, best proven when veteran Monets Garden crushed him in receipt of just a stone. Dessie beat better than Monet's giving them upto 35lb!
He could not beat sabin du loir in 4 attemps only finished in front of him when he fell going well in this race
Denman won at four other courses other than Cheltenham or Newbury, five if you include PTP racing.
He was also 2nd at Kempton in a KG on a course too flat and distance too short and was upsides two out at Aintree when he fell.
@@eugenemccloskey511 Sabin du Loir beat Desert Orchid at shorter distances. Dessie became less effective at distances less than 3 miles as he got older. Yes Sabin was the same age but he was a 2 and a half mile specialist and did not have many miles on the clock due to injuries. I don't believe Sabin would have won a KG as I don't think he stayed 3 miles. He was a great horse though...he beat Dawn Run and West Tip in the Sun Alliance Novices' Hurdle and won his last race at the age of 14!!!
Arkle rewrote the handicap book and the best handicappers say he would give Desert Orchid 3 stone at Cheltenham and beat him hard held.
Stephen Burke. Wrong arkle never gave any horse 3 stone nor could he. Both he and desert orchid gave away 2:1/2 stone. You CANNOT COMPARE HORSES OF DIFFERENT ERAS BECAUSE DISTANCES AND FENCES CHANGE.
@@barbaradyson6951 so true ..... they do same with boxers ie who would win ali vs Tyson...........who knows as different styles different eras even if both in prime and at peak fitness ! .......... instead I'd rather appreciate the talents and enjoy the show wether boxings finest or these beautiful animals ! Arkle dessie to best mate and kauto star ..... all beautiful horses who gave there all yes for our entertainment but also because they loved it !!!! ............. I was 10 watching this race with the old man and appreciate it even more now to see how easliy he won great jumper and great to watch ! ........... who ever would win out the 2 who cares they were both amazing horses who will be remembered forever !! .............. let's hope tomorrow is another great race and all horses and jockeys return safe ! ..........merry Xmas ..........roll on boxing day 😉
Arkle was/is a true great(prob best horse ever), but your off your head thinking he'd give 3 stone and a beating to Dessie. 12 stone on Arkle-9 stone on Dessie...win by 10-15 lengths imo. Also Dessie would've raised his game, like he did in 1989 Gold Cup against Yahoo, jumped right at many fences that day, thus losing ground, also hated the ground, as Simon Sherwood said afterwards. Gave Panto Prince (top class at his best) 23lb and a beating in 1989 Victor Chandler. 12 stone in Irish National-won by 12 lengths.
Footnote; Disagree with Arkle's official rating being 23lb superior to Desert Orchid.
@@stopsponge7504 Tyson's trainer Rooney said Ali would win, and of course when the going got tough for Tyson, he resorted to biting ears, trying to break arms and got ko'd. Ali had great will as well as talent. Dessie had enormous heart.
The horse.
3 of the last 6 horses Kauto Star beat into 2nd (Imperial Commander, Denman, Long Run) were Gold Cup winners. I agree that Desert Orchid was the better horse; but with a nagging doubt that his flamboyant style rather than pure ability leads to this conclusion. Ill-founded claims about horses' form don't help the debate! Kauto and Dessie were the outstanding staying chasers of their generation; beating almost all opposition they faced. Long Run and Denman, "glorified handicappers"..? Hardly.
Denman beat Kauto Star more often that he was beaten by him.
Kauto star would have destroyed dessie.although dessie was a fantastic horse.kauto was 1 of the best
kauto star was a superstar but dessie had character and charisma and he loved the crowds and im sure he hit top gear when he heard the roar of the crowds approaching the last at kempton, there will never be another desert orchid
Keep taking the magic mushrooms fella...haha!!
Dessie had to cope with big weight disadvantages that would have bothered Kauto Star more.
@@mizofan Kauto Star won the Old Roan Chase off 11-10 by 21 lengths, which is a limited handicap.
@@seanscanlon9067 Hmmm. As good as Kauto Star was, I somehow can't see him winning the Whitbread Gold Cup then returning to Sandown eight months later to win the Tingle Creek Chase. In the 1988/89 season Desert Orchid was the best 3-mile chaser AND the best 2-mile chaser. He was so versatile, the likes of we will probably never see again.