I have driven lots of 911 including the 997. I'll say this, the 86 is a much more agile feeling car in hairpins with sharper controls. I didn't expect it (I turod the 86). Having said that, look at how much better the visibility out of of those older cars are and Rev Match is right, the 911 pushed me to explore the outer limits.
I like the 997 generation a whole lot actually. The 86 is lighter and more agile which is mainly due to the weight difference. Surprisingly, the 911 has a shorter wheelbase.
@RevMatchTV yes, the 86 and Miata are super light with honorable mentions for the Type R and GR Corolla. Anything sub 3500 and 3300 is good these days and sub 3000 is insane. My issue with the P cars in general is they are precision instruments, and take themselves very seriously. The newer the model., the more it skews that way. The 86, Miata and from what I've read the Corolla seems to walk a different path. I would love to hear your thoughts on a C8 Vs some of the P cars and heck, your GR86. The C8 is on paper like the old NSX, NA engine, aluminum, double wishbone f/r, mid engine and easy to approach reliable performance.
@@sunnyvalentino Thanks for the comment. I've got lots of content on my GR86 here on the channel. The C8 is great, and I'll get some content up with one in the not too distant future.
That's really cool. I'm looking at 996s or a new GR86. The flat 6 definitely sounds better and my other big criteria is being able to feel the road through the steering. I wonder how a 996 would compare to a GR86 in that department?
I'm want to be transparent when I describe the mods. Neither car is 100% stock, but the 86 is really nothing more than aggressive alignment and better pads. The 911 has a fair bit of suspension work that personally I really appreciate, but it's really meant for aggressive driving.
To be fair to @wil , suspension tuning, whether it be only springs, only dampeners, only alignment changes, only a swapped out sway bar, etc. can change a car drastically. Even straight line and 0-60 performance changes with just a different alignment. The changes can be as drastic and obvious as adding power mods. But to be fair to @revmatchtv , most people understand "mostly stock" to mean that the car performs similar to stock although it does have modifications.
@@JupiterxBlues That can be true, but aggressive alignment does not change the 86 drastically at all. It only serves to reduce understeer for track driving. I drive the car in stock class in an 86 series I run in. The 911 has a lot $$ into suspension. The 86 has some camber. I have a great appreciation for a fun car with OEM suspension.
Having had many old cars in my life, they are a pain. Something always breaks due to age. It will cost you something like $1k to $3k per year to keep a car older than 10 years running.
My 1991 model Mercedes 190E I Bought in 2003 was the least expensive car I ever owned when it came to maintenance. Had it for 10 years and only replaced parts due to normal wear. The brand new Opel Astra I had before that did cost me 10 times more in maintenance the 8 years I had that car. Old car if it is a good car can cost the same or less to own as a brand new car. The least expensive way to own a car here is buy a old car and drive it until something expensive break then scrap the car and buy a new old car. (this is because of insanely high car tax on new cars here).
Great and relevant comparison - thanks for putting it together. I ultimately went for the BRZ after exploring older 911s and Caymans. All great cars but new with warranty and modern features won me over. Good chat on steering, but I’ll say I’m slowly being won-over by GOOD EPAS systems like in the 86/BRZ. Plenty of feel, and the feel is more refined than the pump-whirring of the old hydraulic units. Never thought I’d say that, but time heals all I suppose
I own a 966 911 carrera cabriolet and I have to sell it because of a major engine issue. Yesterday I test drove a 2024 Toyota GR86. I was impressed and it was fun but it could never replace the old Porsche look and feel.
These are wildly different investments. That being said, the 996 is a great investment. It’s just a huge investment compared to a GR 86. If you can swing it though, more power to you.
Personally, I'd go for a 997, 993, or 964 for the older generations. Of course, maintenance is a huge expense with any older car, but especially a Porsche.
PSA - I have 35 track days on my GR86. It IS intended for the track. Don't believe everything you read. I have about 15 friends who track their second gen car with me and none of us have blown up.
He sold his BRZ and bought a CT4V Blackwing after 8 mos or so. I track my 86 regularly and it's been fine. I am on a very accelerated maintenance schedule with an oil cooler. If it blows up, a long block is around $10K and I'll deal with it then. I'm not overly concerned tbh.
20 years ago I bought a 1985 911 3.2 for the same price as a new car, the difference between the two is the new car has devalued, and the 911 has risen in value since I bought it, I like the 86, but I would rather have my 911, easy to work on, very reliable.
Why do people say their car is completely stock, except for this and this and this and this and this. Ok so it’s not completely stock. It’s not bone stock. It’s a modified car.
911 is a keeper. It’s going to age so we’ll!! Especially the 996! Sometimes it’s can be expensive to fix. But don’t get discouraged just do what you can when you can. If you do the required maintenance you will have a great car for a long time. I bought a 05 997 Carrera a year ago it’s just so different than any other sports I have owned!! Amazing
@@revmatchtv man honestly after driving the cayman s I was shocked on how amazing the car was. I definitely think if you don’t need the rear seats its the Porsche to have👍
I am not surprised! I am so glad car companies are still making these cool little coupes that are rear wheel drive! I drove one a last year and I had a blast!!
I think a complete engine from Toyota/Subaru is like 10-11k for the GR86/BRZ so blowing the engine is MUCH cheaper. Also, once you figure out you have one of the FA-24 WITHOUT the RTV issues (Which isn't as big of an issue we thought it was) it's, realistically, a really bullet proof engine, they found out what the short comings of the previous engine, the FA-20, and basically just went through and fixed all those problems so these should be even more reliable than the previous generation.
I am planning to buy 2023 GR86 and I am worried about the rtv problem. Please please please, can you update us about if this problem fixed or not. Thanks
There is no update. If you track it frequently it might be an issue, but there are over 17k of the new gen on the road now and maybe 3 documented failures. That seems within a normal margin of issues on a new car.
Do some research. The RTV issue is basically non existent. (Most of that seems to come from the valve spring recall and dealership techs over applying RTV) What does exist is oil pressure drops under high G right turns. Multiple aftermarket companies are working on solutions like baffles and oil pans to sort the issue. Consensus right now is if you want to track the car run 5-30 oil, oil cooler, oil pan baffle, and over fill by half a quart. Data shows a 15-20 psi drop in extreme corners with that setup, but still seeing 40+ psi at redline in worst case situation.
I prefer the 997 or 993 gen interior. 996 was a 'hail mary' save-the-company effort and lacked the quality of the 993. That said, it drives closer to a 997 than a 993.
Any 20-year old car, even Porsche, will have electrical connectors literally crumbling in your hand upon touch. This means water ingress and electrical shorts are common. In Porsche or BMW case the end result is a bottomless money-pit.
3,300 is not considered overweight for a modern 330+hp car, but it is 500lbs heavier than the GR86 which is probably the 2nd lightest car for sale in North America.
After about 160 kmh the porsche has zero steering control. Its dangerous and not fun. Also the gears are way too tall porsche just doesnt listen to its customers. I love some porsches but most are just overrated and not worth it. The gr 86 is a trillion times better buy its not even close
You eventually come around to understanding what GM gives you in a Camaro 1LE, and im talking four cylinder. I am not necessarily fanboying, but GM is giving you specifically what you are looking for in a sports car. I wouldnt consider a 996 a bargain in the least. With Toyota, you buy into reliability, but GM still beats their deal. ALL Alpha chassis cars that i have driven make you think twice about sports cars, even with their 4 banger turbo. I have not even seen a GR 86 or driven one, so it could be a step up on the Camaro. Great video as always, with excellent narration.
Comparing a 4 cylinder camaro as a sports car to a gr86 is laughable. And yes, I’ve driven a 4 cylinder camaro as a loaner car and it’s complete trash compared to a gr86.
The 1LE package is damn good. GM knows how to build a chassis and suspension. The 4 cylinder is a great track car because it weighs less than the v8 and v6. I’m definitely a fan.
They might both cost 35k, but let's face it... For 35k most people are going to take out a loan and make payments. No bank will finance a 2002 911 for 35k. That's why I disapprove these comparisons based on money. Now, if you want to compare them on specs... Fair enough.
@JonathanGonzalez-gh3xr Banks approve by risk. A portion of it is credit (which if you're looking to buy a porsche, isn't an issue. If it is, you shouldn't be buying one to begin with.) It has to do with buying a car that is 20 years old and could fall apart by the time the lean is complete. If you did what you claim, then you lucked out. So I'll amend my original comment to say that MOST banks won't do it.
I agree, the augmented sound generator is not good. Unplugged, the car is just bland. I ordered a Borlla exhaust so that should go part of the way toward a better sounding car. My friend (who owned the 911) just got the same system for his BRZ and it sounds pretty good.
"Destroy" in a straight line? Sure. On a tight, twisting road, I'll take the 86. I think the DCT is much better than the 6 speed in the E92 generation, and overall it's a lovely car.
I have driven lots of 911 including the 997. I'll say this, the 86 is a much more agile feeling car in hairpins with sharper controls. I didn't expect it (I turod the 86). Having said that, look at how much better the visibility out of of those older cars are and Rev Match is right, the 911 pushed me to explore the outer limits.
I like the 997 generation a whole lot actually. The 86 is lighter and more agile which is mainly due to the weight difference. Surprisingly, the 911 has a shorter wheelbase.
@RevMatchTV yes, the 86 and Miata are super light with honorable mentions for the Type R and GR Corolla. Anything sub 3500 and 3300 is good these days and sub 3000 is insane.
My issue with the P cars in general is they are precision instruments, and take themselves very seriously. The newer the model., the more it skews that way. The 86, Miata and from what I've read the Corolla seems to walk a different path.
I would love to hear your thoughts on a C8 Vs some of the P cars and heck, your GR86. The C8 is on paper like the old NSX, NA engine, aluminum, double wishbone f/r, mid engine and easy to approach reliable performance.
@@sunnyvalentino Thanks for the comment. I've got lots of content on my GR86 here on the channel. The C8 is great, and I'll get some content up with one in the not too distant future.
Well said
That's really cool. I'm looking at 996s or a new GR86. The flat 6 definitely sounds better and my other big criteria is being able to feel the road through the steering. I wonder how a 996 would compare to a GR86 in that department?
Imagine Toyota went to Porsche for the Boxer engine instead of Subaru. We'd have $60K Supra and $80K GR86.
🤣
But at least it would have power, wet sump, and no RTV issues.
Lucky the didnt porsches engines are unreliable how can you not know that
Love it when ppl say 'completely stock except...' and list all the reasons it's no longer 'completely stock'
I'm want to be transparent when I describe the mods. Neither car is 100% stock, but the 86 is really nothing more than aggressive alignment and better pads. The 911 has a fair bit of suspension work that personally I really appreciate, but it's really meant for aggressive driving.
To be fair to @wil , suspension tuning, whether it be only springs, only dampeners, only alignment changes, only a swapped out sway bar, etc. can change a car drastically. Even straight line and 0-60 performance changes with just a different alignment. The changes can be as drastic and obvious as adding power mods.
But to be fair to @revmatchtv , most people understand "mostly stock" to mean that the car performs similar to stock although it does have modifications.
@@JupiterxBlues That can be true, but aggressive alignment does not change the 86 drastically at all. It only serves to reduce understeer for track driving. I drive the car in stock class in an 86 series I run in. The 911 has a lot $$ into suspension. The 86 has some camber. I have a great appreciation for a fun car with OEM suspension.
Having had many old cars in my life, they are a pain. Something always breaks due to age. It will cost you something like $1k to $3k per year to keep a car older than 10 years running.
Old cars are for people who are OK with ongoing higher maintenance and repair
My 1991 model Mercedes 190E I Bought in 2003 was the least expensive car I ever owned when it came to maintenance. Had it for 10 years and only replaced parts due to normal wear. The brand new Opel Astra I had before that did cost me 10 times more in maintenance the 8 years I had that car. Old car if it is a good car can cost the same or less to own as a brand new car.
The least expensive way to own a car here is buy a old car and drive it until something expensive break then scrap the car and buy a new old car. (this is because of insanely high car tax on new cars here).
Great and relevant comparison - thanks for putting it together. I ultimately went for the BRZ after exploring older 911s and Caymans. All great cars but new with warranty and modern features won me over. Good chat on steering, but I’ll say I’m slowly being won-over by GOOD EPAS systems like in the 86/BRZ. Plenty of feel, and the feel is more refined than the pump-whirring of the old hydraulic units. Never thought I’d say that, but time heals all I suppose
This video is incredibly well thought out and good details. You did your best to match them on price and apples to apples.
Glad you enjoyed it.
I own a 966 911 carrera cabriolet and I have to sell it because of a major engine issue. Yesterday I test drove a 2024 Toyota GR86. I was impressed and it was fun but it could never replace the old Porsche look and feel.
These are wildly different investments. That being said, the 996 is a great investment. It’s just a huge investment compared to a GR 86. If you can swing it though, more power to you.
Personally, I'd go for a 997, 993, or 964 for the older generations. Of course, maintenance is a huge expense with any older car, but especially a Porsche.
Thank you very much for doing this comparison. I have been looking at this EXACT comparison to help me decide what is to be my “retirement” car.
It’s easy. If you’re rich go for the Porsche. If you’re a normal person go for the GR86.
Ha ha exactly.
For a moment I though Gordon Ramsey is now doing car reviews haha. Great review btw!
PSA: Both cars are NOT intended for track and do suffer from oil starvation. NEVER USE STICKY TIRES !
PSA - I have 35 track days on my GR86. It IS intended for the track. Don't believe everything you read. I have about 15 friends who track their second gen car with me and none of us have blown up.
3:55 Expensive mechanics
5:20 *Trading 911 for BRZ* 8:50
6:00 Heavier, taller gearing
7:55 Visceral, connected
I absolutely love my 2024 Subaru BRZ Limited. It’s a blast to drive
Nice Nomos Tangente ;) Did your friend go through with the BRZ even with the recent oiling issues?
He sold his BRZ and bought a CT4V Blackwing after 8 mos or so. I track my 86 regularly and it's been fine. I am on a very accelerated maintenance schedule with an oil cooler. If it blows up, a long block is around $10K and I'll deal with it then. I'm not overly concerned tbh.
20 years ago I bought a 1985 911 3.2 for the same price as a new car, the difference between the two is the new car has devalued, and the 911 has risen in value since I bought it, I like the 86, but I would rather have my 911, easy to work on, very reliable.
9:20... this is what's swaying me to the "new car" - and rather go for the Toyota with the maintenance plan etc :)
Ultimately he sold it because he wanted a more reliable daily he could take to the track.
Why do people say their car is completely stock, except for this and this and this and this and this. Ok so it’s not completely stock. It’s not bone stock. It’s a modified car.
I'll try to avoid saying that in the future. I think you get the idea though. I'm trying to be transparent and for some reason, people criticize it.
911 is a keeper. It’s going to age so we’ll!! Especially the 996! Sometimes it’s can be expensive to fix. But don’t get discouraged just do what you can when you can. If you do the required maintenance you will have a great car for a long time. I bought a 05 997 Carrera a year ago it’s just so different than any other sports I have owned!! Amazing
I really like the 997 generation. I had a 987.1 Cayman S and it was such a raw car. Loved it!
@@revmatchtv man honestly after driving the cayman s I was shocked on how amazing the car was. I definitely think if you don’t need the rear seats its the Porsche to have👍
I am not surprised! I am so glad car companies are still making these cool little coupes that are rear wheel drive! I drove one a last year and I had a blast!!
very cool, cheers for the upload
Hope you enjoyed it!
I go with the 996 anytime !! but i whould go for a 987 Cayman S fot the same money !
I had a 987.1 Cayman S with PASM. Fantastic car
One won’t have its engine blown up for another 20k in repairs
I think a complete engine from Toyota/Subaru is like 10-11k for the GR86/BRZ so blowing the engine is MUCH cheaper. Also, once you figure out you have one of the FA-24 WITHOUT the RTV issues (Which isn't as big of an issue we thought it was) it's, realistically, a really bullet proof engine, they found out what the short comings of the previous engine, the FA-20, and basically just went through and fixed all those problems so these should be even more reliable than the previous generation.
Nice conclusion!
I am planning to buy 2023 GR86 and I am worried about the rtv problem. Please please please, can you update us about if this problem fixed or not. Thanks
There is no update. If you track it frequently it might be an issue, but there are over 17k of the new gen on the road now and maybe 3 documented failures. That seems within a normal margin of issues on a new car.
Do some research. The RTV issue is basically non existent. (Most of that seems to come from the valve spring recall and dealership techs over applying RTV) What does exist is oil pressure drops under high G right turns. Multiple aftermarket companies are working on solutions like baffles and oil pans to sort the issue. Consensus right now is if you want to track the car run 5-30 oil, oil cooler, oil pan baffle, and over fill by half a quart. Data shows a 15-20 psi drop in extreme corners with that setup, but still seeing 40+ psi at redline in worst case situation.
That 996 interior is yikes though. It doesn't even seem particularly nice for the early 00s.
I prefer the 997 or 993 gen interior. 996 was a 'hail mary' save-the-company effort and lacked the quality of the 993. That said, it drives closer to a 997 than a 993.
@@revmatchtvmust be the least appealing gen of all Porsches and likely the one that depreciates the most too.
Any 20-year old car, even Porsche, will have electrical connectors literally crumbling in your hand upon touch. This means water ingress and electrical shorts are common. In Porsche or BMW case the end result is a bottomless money-pit.
Any rtv problems for the 2023 model gr86
Not on mine.
I'll keep my GT86. The Porsche is overweight, you can't play with it. It's more of a race car.
3,300 is not considered overweight for a modern 330+hp car, but it is 500lbs heavier than the GR86 which is probably the 2nd lightest car for sale in North America.
Yeah a flat 6 is going to be more substantial that a flat 4... Hello
After about 160 kmh the porsche has zero steering control. Its dangerous and not fun. Also the gears are way too tall porsche just doesnt listen to its customers. I love some porsches but most are just overrated and not worth it. The gr 86 is a trillion times better buy its not even close
I’m waiting for low boost supercharger kits for gr86
The ECU has been cracked, so the kits are imminent.
35k for a used gr86 yeah
You eventually come around to understanding what GM gives you in a Camaro 1LE, and im talking four cylinder. I am not necessarily fanboying, but GM is giving you specifically what you are looking for in a sports car. I wouldnt consider a 996 a bargain in the least. With Toyota, you buy into reliability, but GM still beats their deal. ALL Alpha chassis cars that i have driven make you think twice about sports cars, even with their 4 banger turbo. I have not even seen a GR 86 or driven one, so it could be a step up on the Camaro. Great video as always, with excellent narration.
Comparing a 4 cylinder camaro as a sports car to a gr86 is laughable. And yes, I’ve driven a 4 cylinder camaro as a loaner car and it’s complete trash compared to a gr86.
@@ak740_ You obviously dont know cars.
The 1LE package is damn good. GM knows how to build a chassis and suspension. The 4 cylinder is a great track car because it weighs less than the v8 and v6. I’m definitely a fan.
AK740 you didn’t drive the the one with the track focused suspension. It’s excellent
Too heavy. Solid but still a 3400 sports car.
Great video! 911 all the way!
Thank you
They might both cost 35k, but let's face it... For 35k most people are going to take out a loan and make payments. No bank will finance a 2002 911 for 35k.
That's why I disapprove these comparisons based on money. Now, if you want to compare them on specs... Fair enough.
He paid $20K and made improvements over time. This is what most people do.
Well my bank just did on a 2005 Porsche 911 carrera 2 so uhhh idk maybe have better credit or something lmao
@JonathanGonzalez-gh3xr Banks approve by risk. A portion of it is credit (which if you're looking to buy a porsche, isn't an issue. If it is, you shouldn't be buying one to begin with.)
It has to do with buying a car that is 20 years old and could fall apart by the time the lean is complete.
If you did what you claim, then you lucked out.
So I'll amend my original comment to say that MOST banks won't do it.
Porsche is my car
I had a 987.1 Cayman S in yellow. That was an excellent driver's car in so many ways.
If the Porsche is purely weekend car, go for it
those electric motors sure do sound an awful lot like combustion engines..
Tow hook will turn $1,500 bumper replacement into totalled car with structural damage. Get rid of it.
German = empty pocket repairs
That 86 sounds horrible. Imagine hearing that every time you use your right foot. Therefore my choice is pretty much anything else.
I agree, the augmented sound generator is not good. Unplugged, the car is just bland. I ordered a Borlla exhaust so that should go part of the way toward a better sounding car. My friend (who owned the 911) just got the same system for his BRZ and it sounds pretty good.
Porsche are ugly. Don't care how fun something is to drive if it looks ugly.
Dude Porsche sucks brother. 996 are trash
Mmmkay
One is a fake sports car, other is a dated but real sports car. For $35K, give me a clean 6sp E92 M3 that will destroy either of those.
S2000 is better than all of those. Just isn’t as practical.
Says the 9 year old kid who knows nothing about cars
"Destroy" in a straight line? Sure. On a tight, twisting road, I'll take the 86. I think the DCT is much better than the 6 speed in the E92 generation, and overall it's a lovely car.
It is not a fake sports car. It fits the very definition of a sports car.
You're obviously a fake car enthusiast