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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 มี.ค. 2018
- What are the differences between the "old" style soldering iron tips like used on the low cost Hakko and Weller et.al low cost irons, and the more expensive integrated tip type?
An apples to oranges comparison of the Hakko FX-888D and the JBC CD-2B stations.
Bonus footage under the FLIR thermal camera.
Louis's video: • Soldering station tech...
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3:10 This moment reminded me of an old story.
Way-way back, I briefly worked as a production test and repair technician. There were several of us and since most of our time was spent with testing and fault finding and not soldering all day long, we didn't have personally assigned soldering stations, we just shared a few of them. This was fine, except when we all tried to use them at the same time.
It was one such moment. There was one free station left but it was because it had a problem. The light came on but the tip didn't heat up. We were waiting for its replacement. Since all the other stations were in use, I was fiddling with the bad one and discovered that it had some intermittent contact problem and somehow I managed to get it working. Pleased with myself, I was waiting for it to fully heat up and I was getting ready for soldering. At that moment, the lead technician - let's call him "Nick" 😉- turned up and saw me at the "bad" soldering station. He walked up to me, snatched the iron out from the stand and with an all knowing smile he said: "You know this one is not working, right?" ...and to demonstrate the fact and be dramatic about the whole thing, he just pushed the business end of the iron into the palm of his other hand. He did it so unexpectedly and quickly that I didn't have time to say anything. By the time I did, I could hear this "ssssss" sound, soon folowed by the smell of burnt flesh. 😧
I think there was a lesson in that!
I thought he was gonna toss it in the trash like a took lol
"quite a while to heat up"
Me: coming from a radio shack 15 dollar 28 watt garbage iron. 'Seems like light speed to me :D'
Best iron i ever had was a RS 30w. Second best is the RS 20-50w variable i use now. Only problem ive had is finding the 6mm tips for it(thought i found some on amazon, turned out they were 4mm, but a few wraps of aluminum fixed that). Mainly use it to take things to bits, or fix a loose wire here and there, and it works beautifully, especially with 60/40. If i was making boards in a production setting, yeah Id break out the pace stand. But for simple hobby level touch touch put it on the stand, place another set of components, touch touch stuff, I got nothing but love for the crappy old school RS 'dumb'-irons.
My iron takes 11s to get to 450 degrees
haha right? I went from a junk Weller soldering pencil to the Hakko in this video. Went from a couple minutes to heat to about 10 seconds.
@@TankR I still use, to this day, my RS 15 watt iron. I have two of them that I purchased in the 1980s and they are venerable in how useful they are!
Story of my life man 😂😂😂
Many years ago Dave and some of the EEVBlog forumers steered me towards JBC. Still haven't had to replace a single tip! One of the best purchases I ever made. Thanks guys!
Afrotechmods may I ask for a PID tutorial? We need more good teacher like you
What informations do you need in such a PID tutorial?
Leo Curious probably PID basic and each parameter role (I dont need those, other might), PID implementation on a MCU (NOT arduino) and tuning PID parameter
th-cam.com/video/VVOi2dbtxC0/w-d-xo.html
I prefer Afrotechmods style, he explain it a lot better (at least IMO)
I just realized I purchased a brand new old technology iron. Lol
You and me both, buddy!
I just did yesterday then seen this today I just spent 100 bucks on old technology
Same here. Just bought myself the Hakko. However, I had a knockoff newer technology unit and it blew itself up after 30 minutes. I'd rather solder a little more slowly than not at all.
the main reason for the differences shown in this video is the double heating capacity of the JBC's 135W heating element compared to the Weller and Hakko's 60W :}
the "new technology" does not have THAT kind kind of advantage when compared to same wattage "old technology" irons.
@@duroxkilo lol ok I guess my cheep 70w t12 knock off that heats up in 3 sec must just be magic then 🤣
I bought a Hakko FX-888 (with the temp dial) on your specific recommendation. I still have it, and use it. It remains the best iron I've ever used. No reason for me to change!
My two favorite electrical TH-camrs Dave and Louis duking it out via response videos. Love it!
Can't be long before the boxing ring. As is the way of TH-camrs these days. :)
Rossman is an idiot. Im done with him.
@@stanburton6224 what changed?
I've been watching this channel from the first day of dumpster diving and i absolutely love all the information, it just makes day to day life soo much easier
I like the thermal camera content. I have been using the EEVblog forum for to find a really nice thermal camera enthusiast community. I am checking it a few times a day and contribute as often as possible.
I am hoping for more content.
I solder 8-10 hours a day in a production environment with an FX-951 and I love it. In contrast, I use an $80 Radio Shack digital station at home with an iron similar to your 888D and I've never had any problem with it. If I had a choice, I prefer the 951 any day. The cost is the only drawback, but it's well worth it. I recommend saving for the best iron and skip the knock offs. At the end of the day, you'll be glad you did... Thanks Dave
hey, if you're still rocking your radio shack model, look into some of the china based T-12 style irons, you can get them around $50USD
I use the FX-951 at home and its just brilliant. The heat time and the auto-switching holder work great too. Just make sure you're not getting a knockoff. (Wasn't a fan of the FX-888D though.)
I have never felt limited by my 888d and I do a ton of soldering. I keep it at 390C and have never had any issues
haha love the back-and-forth between Dave and Louis - old school youtube video responses!
I love my fx-951. Especially the standby function (which the knockoffs don’t have). It has paid for itself in tips many times over.
It all depends on what you're using it for. If you're doing hobby projects and the occasional home repair then you really won't benefit from the newer style of irons, but if you're using it commercially or doing a lot of soldering then you may benefit from using the new style of irons. I'm personally very leery about the quality of the knock-off irons, especially the accuracy of the temperature.
For the big honking heat sinks or old radio chassis, use a 250w Weller soldering gun and a 10 gauge wire as a tip. Mr. Carlson has a video on that. I learned to solder with the soldering gun technology and the "old" style seems awesome to me still. Taught both my kids how to solder with little kits they built.
Thank you for including the link to Rossmann's video in the description! So many TH-camrs don't do this when they reference videos for some reason.
i love videos that go super in-depth, thanks for the video!
Ways to start an argument among EEs:
-What's everyone's favorite CAD/EDA package?
-What's everyone's favorite soldering iron?
-Conical or Chisel?
Andrew Kowalczyk tab or space?
Ah... depends on the number of caps, how they look and how easy they are to reach.
Anyone want popcorn this should get interesting.
Conical of Chisel? noobs, the correct answer is slanted chisel... (not really, i like conical quite a bit and use that the most.. but when slanted chisel tip has just the right angle and girth, it is just... aahhh......)
I have the FX-888D and I love it. My previous iron was part of my Kendal 852D++ (AKA One Hung Low with a fancy American name) rework station and it would burn tips up very quickly. My original tip in the FX-888D lasted 2 years and I use it daily.
Edit: I will agree it sucks if I have a large ground plane. My solution to that is to preheat the area with my hot air wand.
I recently got the JBC CD system to replace my old Weller WES51. Best money I have spent in a long time. Seriously.
I never knew what I was missing until I got a nice system.
I picked up a Hakko FX-888D. I absolutely love it. If I need more power for bigger connections, I use butane flame, anyway. It's never let me down, heats crazy quick (used to crappy pencil type and really really old gun type (bad electrical connectivity to the tip really hinders things...)), tip stays nice and clean (I always put it away with a glob of 60/40 on the end; no oxidation). Best $99 I spent on a tool.
"if you are doing a joint per second..." -Dave Jones 2018 folks, 22:36
Buying a Weller iron tip with integrated element and doing a custom driving circuit for it seems like a good idea 💡
I didn't knew abot that! It's even not bouyable in my countty now. Great video. I think i will watch your videos again after that. Very informative.
I started off with Aoyue Hot air soldering station had for years and had the same tip as the Hakko in your demonstration found it difficult to remove big components ..then came across JBC HDE tried the free 30 day trial works so good I purchased it then bought the JBC JT hot air station which is a lot more $ both equipment work awesome no regrets by the way awesome video showing the thermal camera Nice videos you put out keep up the great work 👍
I've soldered I hour days with a $30 hakko clone. It's all I'll ever need. Never had one fail yet, 6 years of use
which one
@@atetraxx You'll never get the same one twice even from the same supplier.
Practise makes perfect!
When i don't have the 10 seconds to wait for my soldering iron to heat up, i definetaly don't have the time to solder. Not a professional though, i get why you'd want something like this if you switch on your iron a hundred times per day.
speaking as a professional, I don't turn my iron on 100 times a day. I turned it on once in the morning, and off once in the evening.
I've always put thermal paste between my heater element and tip assembly. Much less thermal lag, no air gap.
I have a Pace soldering station at work, when the one i had at home broke i bought a Mlink S4 chinese for around €60, i absolutely love it, has served me for more than 3 years and still going strong, it literally gets to 350c in 5 seconds
I remember looking at the 951 when I was buying. Just too expensive for home use. I think it was about 2.5x the cost of the 888 locally. Even the FX-888 was a bit pricey for me at the time. Maybe one day I'll splash out on a fancy one.
Having used the JBC as the lab bench iron in uni I can say they are extremely nice and quick to use. However, unfortunately they're way too expensive to buy as my personal iron.. I'll have to stick with my cheapo one!
Good points on both sides, Thanks for sharing :-)
I think that Rosmann also use lead tin..
Thanks for the video!
Of course "old" are not crappy! And they're ideal for time to time soldering and small DIY job/hobbyists. Because old soldering tips are not expensive. And you can even buy some Chinese "versions" of them to try what you need exactly to work with before buying genuine.
This "new style" heating element looks incredibly like diesel engines pre-heaters...
Only difference, the automotive ones are threaded in.
A pain to replace them, they use to bind into the block and when trying to unscrew, they break and remain buried inside...
Hi Dave, nice video :) I love how the thermal camera shows so clearly how the tips are performing. One thing I didn't hear you talk about is the ergonomics of the newer tech soldering handles like the JBC. The small tip to grip distance on the JBC really makes a big difference, it gives you way better fine control for tiny surface mount stuff.
Yes, but this wasn't a review of the JBC.
That's a fair point, I didn't think about that.
I’ve been doing this since the early 1970s. With, believe it or not, very old technology irons, most of that time. Amazingly, we did all the work we had to do with them. In 1998 I bought a Weller MC5000 station. One of the first computer controlled stations. Recently, it died. It was very good. I had two irons. It was only 60 watts, but for back then, it was a fair sized unit. I used the same two irons for that entire time. Same tips too.
So I recently bought the Weller WT1 H, a 150 watt station, with the 120 watt iron and the 80 watt. I’m surprised at how well this works. It takes less than 14 seconds to go from room temp to 715 (none of this Celsius crap for me). It takes a couple of seconds to respond fully when soldering. You can even get a 200 watt iron.
I dont think comparing cheap stations to a $480 station is valid. Try the one I have against it instead. The price is comparable. All the differences seen here are from a small iron vs a big iron. Twice the watts makes a bigger difference than the direct heat. On my new Weller the same thing happens when comparing the 80 watt iron vs the 120 watt iron. I imagine that if I get a 65 watt iron vs their 150 iron the difference will be even greater.
Still have my 45+ year old Weller soldering iron. I have it in a box to remind me where I started from electronics wise
speaking of old tech, the ones I used in school a couple years ago didn't even have temperature control, those were some tense classes barely seconds between "solder is flowing right" and "whoops the trace is burning away"
Probably a Weller curie point station?
Yup, I had the same experience in school, they gave us some very hot Weller irons and everyone was lifting pads. I already had some experience with a regulated station and soldering with those was very difficult. What's the point of teaching kids their first soldering lessons with such irons?
Jernej Jakob Obviously the point is to make you hate soldering so that you never try it again. duh!
My uni's electronics lab has fixed temp irons and I've lifted a few pads with those guys. They're nice and quick and extra heat can be really helpful (they don't supply extra flux) but I'd feel more comfortable if it wasn't so hot.
You've been talking a lot about soldering irons lately, what do you think about the recent contender (and much celebrated by many hobbyists at least) the TS-100 soldering iron?
Switch & Lever I have both the FX-888D and TS100. And I like the TS100 better. The only drawback is that it does not have a good stand. That is the only reason I still have the FX-888D on the bench.
I love my TS-100 :)
I also love my TS-100! But a good stand and flexible cable are in my list oft things i have to buy next. Daves opinion in it would be interesting!
Love my TS100. It is a "New Tech" iron and costs
Art Vandelay i dont think so but it uses external power supplies so the high voltage stuff is the problem oft whatever supplie you are using. Besides that its verry well made. Due to the direct heating design the lower part of the tip doesnt gets that hot but some sort of an raised edge in the top end of the handle to prevent your fingers from slipping on to the hot metal shaft would be nice. But that never happend to me using it.
Dave is one of the wisest man and the most honest man in the electronic world.. Thanks alot dave for everything you have done this far 🙏💫 greets from Bali, Indonesia
I am sooo glad that my dad got me the JBC for Christmas. Due to his profession he cooperates ALOT with electronics engineers and as he asked them what station to get me they all pointed him straight to JBC. @Work, they used to use Ersa but recently switched to JBC🙏🏻
Depends on the country you are in too, JBC is popular in Europe but not in the US for example.
EEVblog You're correct, I'm Austrian so the market is dominated by Weller, Ersa and JBC 👍🏻 On the flipside, Hakko is hard to come by here
"These are old technology."
Bruh I'm using a soldering iron from like 1965, 'Old' is relative.
Sure, but in this context it is old. Yours is ancient.
@@TheEchelon pre historic.
My dad has a butane-fired pen-sized iron somewhere in the toolbox. Really great for field repairs. We used it to fix the AC once I think.
@@josugambee3701 I've got one here, it's great for heavier duty jobs as they can whack a lot of heat out. Terrible when you need finess though :)
@@OggyGTA Agreed. The temperature control on butane irons is laughable!
Also, I had a RS one, and the rubber(?) seal leaked... The damn thing ignited in my hand! Never again!
Since when is the "direct heat" or "direct drive" in any way, shape, or form, NEW? The Metcal MX500 series solder stations were direct drive >25 years ago. They used heaters that were integral to the tip, and had an electrical connector on the opposite end of the tip. Metcal reps used to demo their solder stations by soldering a copper penny onto a full copper (unetched) copper ground plane.
As for the indirectly heated/sensed iron like the Weller or the Hakko FX888 in the video, note that this type of iron was used for decades in electronics manufacturing without any issues. No issues with solder joint quality, no problems with speed, and no problems with reliability of the solder stations/irons themselves. The early irons had their temperature set by the tips themselves, and came in 500F, 600F, or 700F. Yes, tips oxidized if people left the irons on overnight, but the tips were only $CAN4-5 each.
Working with an Ersa Tip260 from when I was 8 yrs old. Never led me down. Even do SMD with it. I'm 51 yrs now...
I like 63/37 only needs 361f and has the smallest plastic range. Really helpful for just getting something heated and stuck quick, also as much as high heat is quick if u need to keep other components from heating up it's helpful to be able to use lower temps
How much do the consumables cost for those high-end irons? I can get genuine Weller tips for $5 ea at Fry's. I assume those cartridges are a lot more expensive.
The JBC tips cost about half the cost of the Hakko station.
@@LBCAndrew That is fine as long as they hold up well. The advantages for the old-style with separate tips and heating elements is cost, since you only have to replace one or the other most of the time ($10-20 each). That also means you can afford to buy a wider variety of tips to play with. The down-side is you have to be careful around the fragile heating element, and replacing the element on the Hakko requires soldering (hope you have a second iron handy). The other downside being the older style tips like the FX-888D had looser tolerances to allow the heating element and tip to expand and contract freely, so the iron warms up slower (even if the Hakko's wattage was the same compared to Dave's JBC).
Having the heating element and the tip integrated into a cartridge lets the iron heat up a lot faster. The downsides for the cartridges are all in the material science: rapid heating and cooling means they will wear out or crack faster if the element and the metal tip expand/contract at different rates, so R&D costs go up. The tips are more expensive. You can't afford as many of them so you may not have the right tip for the job. The knock-off cartridges are going to be cheaper, but they probably won't have the same amount of R&D behind them and they won't last as long. Just my 2 cents.
it's quite wasteful and this planet is full of trash.
the advantages are minimal comparing same power heating elements but the company's profits are not marginal :}
My admission of shame: I'm still using my old 12.5W and 25W Antex, basic, non temperature controlled, irons. But then I'm a hobbyist with no storage space and I've got used to them over the years (yes, I know that's the logical fallacy of antiquity.)
You and me both, Julie.
I don't do a great deal of soldering, but for hobbyist use on smallish stuff, they are just fine.
Ditto. Have a 25w antec here and it just works for most things.
And it's doing the same job as any of the others just fine. Obsessing over soldering iron minutiae is for people who pretend to busily solder away 25 hours per day...
Julie Brandon . Nothing to be ashamed of. I know respected professionals doing it with less.
Just get yourself dirt cheap 30$ digitally regulated soldering iron from China. You'll never touch your old iron again.
I use those jbc stations at work, I just bought an fx888d for home to replace my old jaycar special. Will be interesting to see how I go.
What I like most about the cartridge-type irons is the ease of changing tips. For hobbying stuff, I think the thread-lock style irons are just fine, but I do agree with Louis's argument. For $100 you don't necessarily even need a Hakko 951 knockoff. You just want an iron that is capable of using the T12 or T15 Hakko tips, or any tip of similar style. Cartridge-based irons are much better just for their ease-of-use and functionality. I always hated having to wait for my 888 to cool down so I could change tips, took forever. With cartridge ones you don't even have to touch any metal. You just pull the hot tip out by the sleeve and pop a new one in.
I used to use the 888D to repair really small electronics for a good year. Eventually it just couldn't cut it. It handled charge ports just fine, but the problem is, once you get down to the micro-scale with things like 01005s, you just don't have enough power to pump into those tiny pads. You also can't use a massive tip to make up for the lack of thermal linkage, your only option is more power. You could bump up the temp, sure, but at that scale, that's really risky.
The other issue is tip selection. Hakko's thread-lock tips are unique specifically to the 888D. As an example, you may not be able to put Weller tips on your Hakko 888 station and vice-versa. So as far as tip selection went, you were kind of boned if you needed a smaller tip and couldn't find one. Compared to the T12/T15s, which have a very wide selection of sizes and shapes.
Conclusion: for hobbying and large electronics repair (stuff you don't need a microscope to see), I think these older types of stations are just fine. But for anything smaller, or if you're soldering in large quantity, do yourself a favor and get a big boy soldering station.
You don't need to wait for it to cool down to change tips, just cut the power off, loosen the fixing nut by wrapping it with thick piece of paper or cloth or using pliers, then you can unscrew it with fingers if you won't touch it for too long, then remove the tip with tweezers or pliers and repeat in reverse, the whole process takes like 30 seconds, sure it's slower than with cartridge tips where it takes like 5 secs but tolerable unless you do some specific job when you need to change tips very often
Also in 900m/t18 series there's a special tip that is precise and massive at the same time, sometimes it helps, it's called s4
How to get away with any iron: Use leaded solder!!!!!!
Not possible in all countries unfortunately 🙁
@@AlexKall Really?? That’s sad 😞
Metcal/OKI PS-900 is using induction, coil is in the handle, heating an alloy in the tip. I guess that would be considered direct drive, would probably mean simpler/cheaper tips too. It's about 200€ in the EU. Wonder how it compares to resistive irons.
I use a Metcal MX-500 at work the tips cost around £20 for normal temp tips and around £30 for the higher temp tips. Really good irons.
Also induction Quick's. Up to 120W and can be used at any temperature, unlike OKI/Metcal.
The Metcal handpiece is so ergonomic. Truly like a pencil. Changing tips couldn’t be faster. Heatup is instant. And for production shops, nothing for your workers to dick around with. Tip dictates the temp. I have a TS100 as well... it’s excellent, but not in same league.
Around a decade ago, my old employer got bought out and closed down. I got a chance to get a lot of equipment at auction, and ended up selling a lot. I was always impressed by the Metcal stations, but as a hobbyist, the tips were inconvenient. They were AMAZING, but they were also calibrated fixed temp tips. A bit expensive, and you had to change out tips to change the temp. I sold the Metcal stations, and stuck with my Hakko 927 & 936s. Recently got a Chinesium hot air station, but hearing there's now affordable Chinese direct heat stations... That even Louis Rossman would take over a Hakko... I'm VERY tempted!
I use Metcal PS900 everyday and i'm very satisfy, especially when i need to be fast!
The tip cost around 10/12 euro each, maybe the less expensive in this kind of tips
I have been using Weller magnastat wcpt stations since 1980 and they are great !
But to change the temperature you have to change the tips, which can be a hassle, that is why i have two stations set up differently....
i have a stone old weller wecp 20 and i am still very happy with it ! soldering smd components and multilayer boards all no problem :-)
Nice! I love my JBC :)
I really wish he’d finally test an Ersa!!! (As people commented in the prior video.) They use “old fashioned” tips that slip over a heater, but in a more modern way, with the heater and thermocouple way up at the front of the heater, and with closer tolerances (and thus a better fit) than the cheap Hakko and Weller. The result is a system with inexpensive tips, and performance that’s closer to the cartridge irons, but at the cost of the Weller. (The Ersa i-Con nano, for example, heats from cold to about 350C in about 10 seconds.)
I am the lucky owner of a Ersa I-con 1, heats up to 380C in 7 sec, but it's not cheap.
Addendum: in the intervening year, Dave said he contacted Ersa, and they wanted totally unreasonable terms for review units (like editorial control). So he told them to pound sand. Since Dave understandably doesn’t want to buy them with his own money, it means they won’t get reviewed.
Having now gotten to use JBC tools, they do have slightly better performance than my Ersa. But now, the Pace ADS200 is a far, far, far better value than JBC or Ersa.
These are some interesting tests for sure, but if your stuck with a large ground plane, you'll want to pre-heat the board a bit to make your life easier and prevent warping and delamination from the localized large temperature differential.
With some due respect, I'm still using the Weller WP25 that I bought in 1971, with high-quality Weller tips still available. 25 watts, no temp regulation, just a real soldering iron. Takes 5 minutes to reach temp, and you use the tip you need for that day's work. Used it 12 hours a day for 35 years, then occasionally for 5 or 6 hours/day for 20 years, and now just occcasionally for personal work because I'm retired. Still works like the day I bought it. I'm not buying some chinese made iron that'll break next year, when I've got one that works fine.
I wasn't aware of this tech change, but since I've never touched one, I'd better keep it that way--because my tips look a lot less expensive. 🤣 I feel like it might be better for me not to know the extent that I'm 'missing out.'
It would be nice for a review on the TS-100 soldering iron since it uses that “new type” cartridge tips and you could get one for around~$60 USD and it’s open source
*edited ST-100 to TS-100 thanks to Jonny
Take a look at www.aliexpress.com/item/Electric-Unit-Digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-Kits-for-HAKKO-T12-Handle-DIY-kits-w/32740527077.html
That is NOT a proper bench soldering station IMO. It is more designed to be thrown in the carry bag or something for portable use. People keep asking me to compare it to bench soldering stations, I won't do it.
EEVblog ts100 nice but im with dave my ts100 has nothing my bench metcal mx500 .. different uses
sudo compare ts100 to bench soldering stations ;)
yes it's made to be more portable, but it's still really good, I used it to solder my keyboard
For decades I've used a Weller with #8 (430°C) conical tip. Obviously, I carry out the work extremely quickly to minimise heat input. Never had a problem.
Yes these review seem to overlook the fact that the wellers have different heat tips. They also have some of the best tip profiles, eg pointy but with a tiny 1 or 2mm flat almost unnoticable but it helps to have that tiny flat to get a good contact area.
As you mentioned, 65 Watts vs. 130. ^^)
I live so perfectly well with my stone old Weller WTCP-S that I got used for 30 quid, I don't even dream of getting anything new. Yes, it's a lot about what I use it for, but still. I'm happy with it. It's my right Cockford-Olly.
:D still using my old Weller from studying times...and never would change it unless it goes to solder iron heaven one day. Back in the days electronic engineers were the professionals. Nowadays everyone who can read in a programm "this goes here and must have this resistance" can call himself a professional (:D no idea why i went this far).
That newer irons are faster and more consitent and you should get it for mass soldering. :( but still love my old baby...even though i can go drink a coffee while i wait for it to heat up
I just had a similar rant lol, the older gear was either home use or pro use and the pro gear was designed really well. In the days when everything was through hole it had to be.
I’m guessing that the new tips are a lot more expensive
Duh! LOL!
We have a JBC DIT & DIR, Weller WX1011 & WX1010, Ersa Icon 1 in the lab. Out of them my favorite one is the Icon 1 with the iTool. I am able to use lower temps and the thermal capacity is massive which resulted much more enjoyable soldering sessions. A properly designed good quality iron with passive tips is as good as an active one. Note that I havent tried Metcal yet.
that´s also my personal experince. Our whole company is running Ersa Icon now.
I had to use Metcal soldering iron where I worked many years ago. They worked OK and nice to hold but the cartridge tip had to be replaced to often.
Will you be doin the Pace Tweezers too?
That should be interesting ;)
I fully agree to Dave.
Additionally, a very big advantage of the JBC type of irons is the fact that they have the lower temperature "sleep" mode. to prevent premature corroding of the tip. With my older Weller magnastat I had to replace the tip every month because the tip was at 370°C all working day. While the oldest JBC frequently used tip is now 5 years old!
Ok.... these JBC tips cost a lot more and at the end the total costs will be comparable but the huge comfort of the JBC is worth every cent.
I used to be a fan of the Wellers, but from the first day I touched the JBC, the Weller was history... professionally... At home I still use the Weller bought 35 years ago because the investment of 350 euro's privately is too much. And the heavy to be soldered stuff where the Weller can't cope with I will take to my work.
Or i must cut in the costs of my kids...... naaahhhhh i guess not.
At 12:30 when the JBC is used on the copper, it peaks at 25% power, or about 30w. There is a thermal gradient from the heating element to the sink and the Hakko's thermocouple is just too far upstream from the tip to measure an accurate temperature.
It is tricky, but it is possible to do temperature compensation based on the power currently needed to maintain a given temperature. Something like this: a tip can maintain 240C with 2w power, right now we're pushing 10w to maintain 240C. That means our tip temp is lower than 240C, boost it according to a power curve.
By far the easiest solution is to have the thermocouple as close to the tip as possible.
I am convinced. Those new irons are the professional tools. I was happy with old tech soldering iron for professional work, but I had to crank it up to 480'C to solder high current inductors like 25A 2.2uH in SMD package. It does the job, but it must be set to extreme temperatures. Image headting up two or three planes that large tiched by vias. Even with 160W old tech soldering iron we are talking about 300'C for small 0603, 350-400'C for meadium sized components and >450'C for very large components.
A 65W iron and a 135W are 2 very different irons. I bet an ancient, direct to the wall, non controlled 135W iron would be close. Power makes pointy tips work as well as a chisel.
Buying a knockoff is insanity, especially when for the same $ you can have a dependable Weller. I've used the old style professionally for years and the irons are decades old but work flawlessly on smd, cable harness and thru hole work. Especially good when you have another shift using your iron, the tips are cheap so the shop has plenty. Not going to argue the new is better but the old is FAR from obsolete.
Yeah, I'm quite happy with my Ungar that has multiple heating elements that screw into the same handle and pretty much the same PL113 tip on them, I use a 45W element most of the time, plugged into a box that'll cut that in half with a diode. Works well for me, though I don't do *any* surface-mount stuff.
Unless you've tried yourself you can't make a blanket statement like that. Thousands are enjoying the T12 solder station without a problem.
The Echelon yeah a bunch are also pissed because they got some questionable quality. It’s a crap shoot if they work out of the box and then fail after a couple months. I researched for months before settling with the Hakko. From everything I’ve seen the T12 machines that aren’t high end are pretty garbage quality at the end of the day. I don’t want to wonder if I got the good ksger or the bad one. That’s why I bought hakko. Plus genuine vs aftermarket tips make a difference. If you buy cheap stuff, then don’t expect for it to last long.
Main problem of "old" tech are 900 series of hakko. They have bad design. Weller and ersa use same tech but deliver heat with no trouble. 900 tips are garbage with huge air gaps and high heat resistance. Genuine T12 are great, have copper core and low thermal resistance. Chine t12 are lottery. Easy test - set tip tp 200 c and put it in a cup of water. Good tip drops to 100c instantly. Bad one usually doesn't even boil water.
@@Roy_Tellason An individual on an antigue radio forum commented on using a diode. I didn't understand why at the time . Now I do, thanks!
I still have a Weller WTCPL soldering station, the one that sets the temperature of the tip by the Curie temperature of a plug in the base of each tip. I bought it sometime around 1975, and it refuses to die. Last time I looked, I can still get tips for it. This must be an "antique" soldering station, if the earlier ones with electronic temperature adjustment are "old".
It was interesting to see both point of views, Louis‘ and Dave‘s.
Louis Rossman is not a hobbyist. His needs are different. He really does need a direct drive iron, Most hobbyists don't. How many hobbyists would be soldering three joints in as many seconds?
About his point of Fahrenheit vs. Celsius. He is not an engineer. Most engineers (whether American or otherwise) would concede the Celsius is superior to Fahrenheit.
And Kelvin rules them all.
I can use either.
I "think" in F for things around room temperature. I use C for anything I wouldn't touch, especially for things above boiling / 100C. Except for baking, where every recipe is in F.
The rest of the world thinks that the U.S. doesn't understand metric. Even people that "don't know" metric actually use it frequently. Most people can't remember any large soda bottle that wasn't measured in liters. A half liter is more common than a pint. 12 ounce cans are just 'a can', not called out by volume. And everyone knows roughly how big 9mm is.
Can always use decimal inches.
That is one thing about being American--you have to use both metric measurements and--whatever the other system of measures is called. In most cases we (Americans) don't have a lot of choice in which measurement system we use depending on the application. If someone were to as how tall you were and you said 183 centimeters if you were talking to an American he would at best have to think a while to figure out six feet and at worst have no idea what you are talking about. And then you buy soft drinks in liter bottles.
+captxrox Indeed, I have several tools with both an imperial and metric version and stock hardware in both imperial and metric. While I generally prefer metric if given the option, a recent exception was a mitutoyo micrometer, where the imperial version reported both systems while the metric version only reports metric.
I just use a £5 Chinese adjustable temp iron that uses Hakko tips and it's good enough for my uses.
something like the ksger t12? I just bought one at 35 and am still waiting for it to arrive
Thanks! Great job.
I would be surprised that any manufacturer ships stations with wet sponges still, after everyone finding out ages ago that wet sponges are bad for tips... but then I realized those manufacturers care more about selling you more tips than they do about customer satisfaction. Use the metal chore-boy things, you'll thank me after a year of not buying new tips.
"Just the tip..." lolol
Lincoln Worsham and only for a minute, mind you
TIME!
And only for a moment.
Salutations fellow empire-of-dirt schmoo-releasers.
:D "that's what she said"
i've been using a basic 30 watt iron from radio shack for nearly 40 years, fixing everything from Walkman's to TV's. the new ones are nice and nifty, but not necessarily required, unless maybe for doing micro electronics. some of us cant justify spending that much on something that gets used 2 to 5 times a year.
I have one of them RadioShack irons, and last year got a Hakko FX-888D and it was an absolute night and day difference, Now I use my old iron for welding plastic.
dont waste more time.. get you a professional soldering station. You will never regret!
Speaking of integrated heating element tip soldering irons, what do you think about ts100? I know, that there are a lot of reviews of it out there, but still, we haven't got your valuable opinion.
"the tip is not just the tip any more"
Never was
euuhmmm dave. 🙄🙄 I still use my 25++ year old Weller magnasat soldering station. The new board repair dudes just cant solder lol and need way to expensive soldering stations with lots of bling bling gadgets. cheers mate from a old skool dutch repair and radio amateur dude.
I just upgraded to an "old" style iron from an 8$ plug it in & wait 5minutes. I couldn't be happier. Spent 60$ on Amazon & has both heat gun & soldering iron with digital temperature control. Marketed as portable...not so much...but working great for me😁 would love a nice 600$ setup, but can't justify it (I can buy a lot of other stuff to solder with 540$)
Great video, thank you
I have one of those ATTEN 306DH irons that heat the tip directly using induction heating so heat transfer is excellent and tips are inexpensive same as the "old" style irons. Is still low power around 60W (even if they claim more) and since the tip is small there is not much thermal mass.
I will say induction heating is even "newer" technology :)
There are many models search for high frequency soldering and at that price is probably the best option.
Hmmm...we are comparing 60W with over 100W. It's like I had a comparation between my 90CP car...with a 200 cp car...and I expect that my car will be able to have the same performance.
The reason is very simple, the 100W solder will be able to push more power (and more heat). This mean that the drop of the temperature will not be so big, and recovery will be faster.
Short: 100W mean the power in 1 second. So, if you solder something big for example 3 seconds, the 60W will be able to push 180W/3 seconds...and 100 Will be able to push 300w/3 seconds. More, don't forget that thermal dispation of the joint/materila that you want to join will be the same...
True, probably my next iron will be "the new" tehnology...but I don't belive that is so big difference.
It will be interesting to see using stations with the same power
bolovanro
I think my Metcal is only 60 Watts max, and it's still way better for all types of soldering IMO (SMD and PTH).
I definitely don't consider myself a "professional" by any means, and I'm not running a repair shop, but I doubt I will ever go back to using the older style indirect irons.
Granted, the retail price of most of the known-brand direct-heat stations is still a tad high, but the Hakko 951 looks well worth the $250, and many people are mentioning the TS-100.
(I haven't used either of the above stations, so can't give a proper opinion on them, but they seem quite well reviewed.)
Every Metcal station I've owned have been second-hand off eBay, and they last for many many years. There's a company called Thermaltronics who are now selling new Metcal / OKI tips as well, so most of the older models are still covered.
I'm dying to see a video now of a comparison between a Metcal, Hakko 951, JBC, and a few "older style" stations.
But, Dave's main point at the end of the vid is that the direct-heat stations are chosen more for a production environment due to the faster recovery time (and not just their performance on large ground planes / heatsinks).
I would like to see more "real World" soldering examples between the different types of station, because I would argue that the direct-heat stations make a big difference when it comes to soldering the small / SMD stuff too.
With only 60 Watts on my Metcal, and a similar width of tip, I'm confident it would still pass the copper-clad PCB test with ease.
I agree that it was a bit unfair to pit the lower-wattage stations against the ~135W JBC, but Dave did mention that in the vid.
(P.S. I don't work for nor represent any of the above companies. I just tried Metcal stations at work, after many years of using older style stations at home, then thought "Oh, wow, so THIS is what makes soldering so much easier." lol)
The JBC never went above 20% output power, it's a totally valid comparison.
Wow - what did we do before the new tips came along? I guess nobody could solder properly lol.
:D when you learned to solder with our old beloved irons then that new hightech stuff makes you look like a real professional
You could also buy the genuine JBC tip and tip holder for about 100$, then build your own controller for about 100$. Then you have a 600+$ for under 200$. I think it is a great project for beginners (given that you'd use a laptop power supply or something and are not messing around with mains).
What about putting some high temperature thermal compound or something like copper anti seize on the ceramic element of the old style ones?
meh! louis likes to complain a lot. after some time i couldn't take it anymore.
:} true story
23:48 - *JBC's graph math is WRONG!* A *_difference_* of 35°C is NOT equal to 95°F! It is actually a difference of 63°F. Nor is 70°C = 158°F. Which is 126°F. OMG for a company who's business is heat I am not impressed.
By their math the difference between 0°C and 1°C is 34°F... ya no.
ElmerFuddGun Over the years I’ve fixed numerous Wikipedia articles whose temperature differentials were wrong, because someone thought it’d be OK to use a bot to add auto-conversion of temperatures, not realizing that the formulas for CF are different for a *temperature* and a *temperature difference*. :::facepalm:::
Do keep in mind when I used JBC's graph I referred to it as "enemy propaganda", which I feel is on-point.
You are right. Our graph has been corrected now. Thanks!
@@tookitogo Many thanks! So THAT'S why they were wrong! I had previously puzzled over this, but the idea of a Wikipedia temperature conversion bot never actually occurred to me!
Nice demo, especially once you leave the wet sponge test behind and actually do some soldering. Wouldn't you say, though, the ground plane test is more influenced by the relative wattage than the heater type?
Thank you for the video!
5:05 - So the "new technology" irons use glow plugs? >.
The JBC at 5 times the cost. I would never see 5 times the performance. My son got me as a gift a tempature controlled iron and I noticed a big difference then my old non-temp controlled iron. As a hobbie I could never afford the JBC and would rarely benefit from it, especially using leaded soldier.I have learned alot from your vids, your a Great Teacher.
Thanks Dave for sharing your knowledge and experience.
That's why the have different irons ate different price points. No need to buy the expensive one if it doesn't suit your requirements.
Which one did you get?
I think the point Louis was trying to make is that you don't need to spend 2x-3x as much as you used to for a JBC station, you can get inexpensive clone Hakko or other Chinese stations with the same direct integrated heater tip design for only slightly more $ than the old technology. For a DIYer even a TS100 might be enough, or combine a Hakko handle with one of those cheap DC controllers.
Jernej Jakob I know that's what he was saying, and said so in the video.
And then he ask himself why those lights in the ceiling flicker...
I'd have preferred Dave put on a smaller tip that would be the more common kind used in general work situation as opposed those two monster things. That way we'd have seen what's really at stake: the heat capacity transfer capability off the tip by the (i assume induction technology ) JBC versus the traditional ceramic element Hakko.
You know, there is a new category in play, the compact portable soldering iron. Within the sub $100US category you have the TS100 and TS80 et al, but with the same capability at a fraction of the cost - Pine64's $25 Pinecil (pine sil) which uses the same tips but combines the power supply options of both the TS80 and 100 (USB QC / PD power or 5525 barrel up to 20V). There are even entries into the soldering micropencil range with the Sequre Nano series at $50 with 3 C210 series tips. Interesting times.
Is it possible to focus the thermal camera? Or is the image always somewhat blurred due to the nature of radiant heat?
The thermal camera I have used had a focusing ring. Thermal cameras have very low resolution, so that may be a contributing factor. Some cameras synthesize video from a thermal sensor and normal visible light camera for improved clarity.
Yes. Flir Ex series need an external focussing tool. These can be 3D printed. The ETS does not have focus control, it's fixed. In the EEvblog forum there is a great thread by Fraser on improvements for it.
it has something like a 60x80 resolution most likely. Focus isn't the bottleneck.
I disagree, from the thermal footage in this video it certainly seems like the focus is the limiting factor. I can't easily make out the individual pixels, so unless there's some anti-aliasing going on, it seems like the focus is what's preventing the images from being more "crisp".
Power Max the ETS320 has a 320x240 resolution. Which is basically the E8 put on a stick - hence TS for "table stand". And even a 80x60 image will look much better when focussed.
Interesting comparison. What feedback do you have about the new TS100? Maybe another comparison video.
Cheers!
It is NOT a bench soldering station. It is more a portable iron, I will not compare the two, they are different categories IMO.
EEVblog Dear Dave, for sure is not a bench soldering station.
But on the other hand, is extremelly precise (based on STM32 - I do not comment about other brands) and fast, FW upgradeable, portable, versatile.
Since I have this little tool I almost forget about the Weller on my bench.
IMO, is suitable for any electronic laboratory (except some "heavy duty" works).
At the end of the day, what matters is to learn something from each experience.
Therefore, thank you for your EEVblog.
Always inspiring.
Cheers.
BTW TS200 is coming very soon ;)
Martin Wolker Great. Looking forward for the new device.
Cheers!
horiamorariu i love my ts100, best portable iron ive ever had, but like i said previously its just not in the same league with my metcal mx500 in my lab.. only my 2c worth..
Ive got one of those Hakko stations and cant really fault it for the work i do. Which isnt motherboard level stuff. Mostly, just bit of through hole. Wires onto swiches, connectors etc. All pretty old school stuff really.
I use an $80 Yihua chinesium 888 style station with hot air gun and it does most things just fine. I solder things fairly quickly and with steady hands so I tend to just crank the temp nice and high and have yet to have a problem with it. Gonna get a pinecil and compare the two since it uses the new style tips and is around the same wattage so I can do an apples to apples comparison.
Probably you haven't worked on modern multi-layer motherboards, otherwise you will know how hopeless the old style is. Remember you only tested on 1 layer ground-plane, just imagine 4 or 5 times more heat sink from the groundplane. If you want to really test it, desolder a few trough hole electrolitic capacitors from an old motherboard and you will find out how difficult it is, especially the negative pin. Also try to replace a usb connector with the Hakko just for fun :)
I have worked on modern large layer count boards, I know the limitations. It's actually not as bad as you think given that components are supposed to have thermal relieves. I'm just trying to explain and show the difference between the two types.
I know what you mean, but from practice know that there is a big problem. The trough hole capacitors used on motherboards have thin leads, much thinner than regular trough hole, something like 0.3 or 0.4 mm and the hole is a very tight fit, very little solder in the hole. While you can melt the solder on the surface inside the hole the solder does not melt. If you pull the capacitor you damage the internal plating on the hole. The problem is that it is limited heat transferred trough the thin lead to the inner layers. I don't think they cared for repair-ability when they made them like that.
Sure, but I've removed through hole parts from large multilayer boards with a standard Hakko, it's not like it simply doesn't work. Of course YMMV, and I'm definitely not saying that an integrated tip iron isn't better, it is way better, but those who write off the "old" style irons as useless are wrong.
I use an old Weller PU2D and replace many mobo capacitors, and have never had the through hole come out with the capacitor leg. When I say many I mead 1k plus.
Why the thermal relieves? Everething modern is reflow now, I understand that with reflow they are not required. I don't use them. Thermas dull the performance of my carefully selected ceramic caps. I recon that sometimes prototypes are a pain to assemble without them ;) and I have that JBC