Ranking Geoff Crammond and Papyrus Sims from Best to Worst
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.พ. 2025
- Throughout the 90s there was an ongoing competition between Papyrus and Microprose (or David Kaemmer and Geoff Crammond). Who won? Who's sim was the best? Today we settle the score once and for all! (In Open wheelers category, Geoff never made any NASCAR sims).
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Games that are ranked in this video:
REVS (Geoff Crammond)
Indianapolis 500 - The Simulation (Papyrus)
Formula One Grand Prix (Geoff Crammond, Microprose)
IndyCar Racing (Papyrus)
IndyCar Racing 2 (Papyrus)
Grand Prix 2 (Geoff Crammond, Microprose)
Grand Prix Legends (Papyrus)
Grand Prix 3 (Geoff Crammond)
Grand Prix 4 (Geoff Crammond)
Revs (1985) Silverstone Geometry Accuracy by Race Sim Central:
• Revs (1985) Silverston...
Vanilla GPL footage by Taka-Harvey:
/ @taka-harvey9631
F1GP Community and mods:
sites.google.c...
Website & Blog: www.tedmeat.com
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"I'm Paul Page, from Papyrus this is Indycar Racing 2."
Those were some if the greatest and spine tingling words i heard in the early/mid 90s.
I never owned IR2, but I remember those words from the intro to the first Indy Car Racing.
That was my first PC racing game and I remember those words too! 👍
Haha. So true. I restarted the game a few times for that.
When I played GP2 for the first time, back in 1996/1997, it blew my mind! I was an F1 driver, engineer, mechanic and strategist at the same time! incredible ! Never again has a game impacted me so much... I'm still playing it!
comparto el mismo sentimiento che cuarenton
Bring back so many memories with GP2. It was such a great game.
And no one talks about it the manual that was coming with the box. It wasn’t just a manual, it was a book trmying to teach you all the technical aspects of formula 1 and racing in general. Man those memories 😊
it was a stable for many years
@@nicoareche are you talk it to me? 😆😆😆
I think the limited graphics back in the day may have been the reason for me to games feel more immersive. Not just sims, but in other genres too. The lack of eye-candy forces you to use more of your imagination, which increases the immersion, as it connects the player deeper in to the game. You create the missing parts in your mind. Its a bit like reading a book vs watching a movie. You create the image yourself rather than just watching it passively. What do you think?
I think you're right. It always feels that the old games have more going on than what meets the eye. They don't, of course, but it feels like it. So I think your point is valid 👍
All in all, even if you have photorealistic graphics, you'll get used to it and don't even notice it after few hours of playing. Same goes for REVS, just have to calibrate your brain.
Spot on analysis 👌🏻
Absolutely.
Completely agree !
That's exactly it 💯.
CRAMMOND BEATING KAEMMER!? FANBOY !!
jkjk great video Ted! 😁Agree with everything you said
HOW DARE YOU... YOU... KAEMMER FAN! I will I challenge you to a hardcore season. In IndyCar Racing. IndyCar Racing *ONE* !
😉
@@TedMeat
Split-screen!!
Winner hosts next year. Other guy has to fly out.
@@stevezeoke The one with more subscribers flies first.
GP2 deserves extra points somewhere for the crash physics when touching wheels that would see cars launched into the sky, this adds a significant amount of extra fun outside of pure racing and back in the day there were many GP2 crash websites. I spent literally hours on San Marino trying to get the biggest airtime possible from touching wheels on the long straight
Your GP2 comment at the end 'there's just something in that game that will never be repeated' is absolutely Bang on (excuse the pun!). I spent immeasurable hours playing GP2 and still dabble with it to this day.
Comparing GP2 to today's F1 games is pointless, it's like pitting a MkII Ford Escort against a Tesla Model S - yes, the Tesla has all the bells and whistles, but for pure fun and immersion you'd take the Ford all day long.
Excellent video Ted.
Thank you, great to hear you enjoyed! One thing about GP2 is that it also hits the sweet spot period-wise! Mid 90s was just a perfect time for a racing sim like GP2, cars were unreliable enough, lapped traffic played a bigger role, cars were hard to drive and some drivers were not that good, resulting to a lot of driver errors etc. By 2001 (and GP4) the sport was already a lot more "sterile" and the races just aren't quite as unexpectable as they were before.
I still look back very fondly on my many, many hours playing GP2 and even moreso on the modding community and the friends I made there. I’m proud to say I contributed a number of my own tracks (there was no more enjoyable creative pastime) as well as modding tools. Great, great times. Glad you loved it too. 👍
Two days ago I drove a online race in GPL with a full server (19 human drivers), on a track released in 2021. Still the king of racing sims :)
I lived in ICR2 in the 90’s. When the fan made track converter came out, it gave the game more life. It came out right around the time of the split so you could race IndyCars at Charlotte and Dover for the first time about the same time they raced there for real. Loved ICR2 so much!!
Great Vid Ted
My fave too was/is GP2. It was sooooo painful waiting for it to be released. I can remember seeing the screenshots in PC Gamer magazine for months and months. It almost made me cry waiting for so long, but boy was it worth the wait....
Thanks for this. Makes me want to setup GP2 on my modern PC.
Good stuff! I spent a thousand days throughout the entire 1990s playing most of these(except ICR1 and GPL).
I have played GP2 and GP4, and I agree GP2 has that unexplainable don´t know what. I guess is because the age we were when we started to play it. I was around 10, so for the first time I could have the "feeling" of driving a F1 car, imagine alternative races, have an unexpected oil leak just as in the real world, benefit from someone´s problems, set a pole position....it really blew my mind. There hadn´t been anything else like that game before. So the first one is always special, but the age is the key factor, my favourite cars ever are those of the first half of the 90´s, my early childhood. Greetings!!!!
I was a late starter - in my mid 30s when GP4 hit the shelves I believe. My first game that I had on a PC at home had been two year prior - Monster Truck Madness 2!!
Do you know that mechanical failures in GP2 are predetermined for the racing weekend? I raced a Ferrari car in Montreal and my engine blew. I tried to re-race it from the saved game (after qualifying session) and engine blew once again at the same exact time!
Haven't noticed, I was just 9y.o at that moment. Хочется скачать игру и повторить сезон 94 года)))@@Fixxxer82
@@Fixxxer82 Yup, but if you could get back to the pit box, your trusty crew could have purring again in 20 or so seconds...!
GP2 hands down for me!
My first serious F1 PC game (after a quick stint with F1GP and Indy500) and it blew my mind. I spent countless afternoon trying to shave off that extra 0.01s at Monza, Monaco or Imola; I played lots of careers and scenarios (courtesy of the great modding community!), it was never boring.
GPL was a different beast, a huge challenge that required time and dedication I didn't have anymore by 1998. The game I wish I'd be good enough to master.
GP3 was a bit like the middle child, not a special as the first, not as precious as the last. But GP4 itself was a bit disappointing, with the feeling of being a super-mod of GP2, with the bare minimum of evolution to make it current. I don't think I played GP3-4 COMBINED half as much as I did play GP2, despite the improvements and the impressive wet-weather.
I guess nothing can beat the magic of the "first" F1 sim. Only with F1 99-02 and later rFactor I clocked hours of gameplay comparable to GP2.
Thanks for the comment! You mentioning GP4 being "a super-mod of GP2" reminded me of an interview of Nick Court (project manager in GP3 and a "spokesman" for Crammond) from the early 2000s. According to him the GP -series to Crammond was not so much about single, independent games but an ongoing project to create the "ultimate F1 sim". Every game was just an evolutionary step forward and GP4 was finally the "completed product". Well, almost anyways, since they didn't have time to crush all the bugs before they ran out of money.
Great vid. The Geoff Crammond AI is what lifts it above all others IMO. GP2 also had so many random events (which to be fair, was more likely to happen in 94 than 2001). I also loved the AI sometimes colliding with each other. The only downside is they are OP in intermediate conditions.
I bought an Amiga just to play Crammond’s Grand Prix back in the day. I still have that Amiga and Grand Prix is still resident on the hard drive I fitted in 1992.
My favourite is Grand Prix 4 though which has its own dedicated period PC to live on. There’s something about being hunted down by Schumacher lap after lap that makes it special.
I played F1GP with a 368 PC. Was completely happy with 15fps.... until I played it on my friends 486 and 25fps. After that 15fps felt like a slideshow.
What kind of a frame rate you got with Amiga?
@@TedMeat I believe it was fixed at 8 fps, a rather pedestrian pace. 😉
I believe you could double the fps by using the F1GP Editor that was given away on an Amiga Format cover disk. I still have that cover disk too. 🙂
@@herdarkshadow834 Did the Amiga version had rain? I mean just spray, not rain drops.
TH-cam algorithm selected you sir.
No mattter how many times I refreshed my main page this video was there and finally I said Goddamn ok i'll give it a chance.
I'm glad I did. Fanstastic video!
Thanks! For some reason the algorithm really liked this one, good it wasn't a disappointment!
Great video, thank you!
Grand Prix Legends felt more like Winter Olympics to me. Ice skating and skiing. Simply undrivable, especially with a keyboard (i couldn't afford a wheel as a kid).
GP4 will forever be the game of my life.
I spent so much time playing Revs on my C64 back in the day, it really was incredible. I remember really feeling immersed in it chasing down other cars. Geoff Crammond was a genius
GP2 was legendary when i was in high school. Love those 90's TV graphics btw
Both designers did a great job with what was available.
As long as GPL is on top, just because it is, we can call this an subjective approach to an objective ranking. Very well done! Thank you for re-calling all those memories everyone of us simracers have for four decades now. What a ride from Revs back then to iRacing / AMS2 / ACC / AC / LMU nowadays. What a wonderul hobby or passion we share.
Great video mate I really enjoyed it. I am a biased F1 Challenge 99-02 fan but I appreciate Grand Prix 4 a lot.
Good to hear you enjoyed :) We're all biased, it's very hard (or even impossible) to change one's long time favorite game, no matter what. I've done iRacing, Automobilista, rFactor... but always go back to GP2, nothing I can do 😄
me too mate, theres something about the gmotor games (F1 99-02 challenge, rfactor, GTR2, Automobilista) that make love them, however i apreciate the work of Gran Prix series, for me my dream game would be the modding and handling of gmotor games with the inmersion and details of Gran Prix series
20:20 that's amazing. Almost scene for scene Schumacher vs Hill in '94
I've only played Grand Prix 4 and GP Legends on this list, it's been my gateway to racing in older sims and I think the actual racing experience in GP4 is genuinely unmatched. Normally games dumb down their AI for lower difficulty levels and make them stupid, but the GP4 AI feel respectful and well-raced regardless of whether you drive on Amateur and Ace level: I've never had a better singleplayer experience. Altering the AI values is also great as they have a random 'variance' in skill that gets randomly added to or decreased from their stats before a race, making drivers unpredictable and realistically different across a season.
It also recreates the feel of early-2000s F1 perfectly, and the little details like the helmet visors, heat haze, billboards and marshals add to that feeling of being an F1 driver. My only drawback with GP4 is the clunky UI, accessibility issues and the difficulty in getting mods to work with it, which is the main reason I play F1 Challenge 99-02 a lot more. Great video and I might check out some of these games for myself!
Great comparison.
I agree also for GP2 to be my personal favorite, because it is the only game that I used to
- drink beer
- play with friends
- student life was perfect
- everything was dandy
It also coincided with interesting F1 seasons, that really boosted to fire to play F1 games.
And it also felt to be easily the best racing game, ever - honestly.
Newer games never built quite the same atmosphere.
Only two racers made explosive impact right at getgo, Indianapolis 500 and GP2. "Can this be true..?" "OMG"
People used to play 24/7 Indianapolis 500, Wolfenstein and Civ1 at my place for years. It was crazy to wake up and someone was clicking with red eyes in the same position when I got to sleep. Happy days.
Haha, same here :D I can't understand how we had so much time back then, shouldn't we have studied or something?
Glad that video got recommended to me. Great work!
Played much of those games and now I really want to try GP4.
GP2 is definitely my personal favourite. It was my first ever racing game and it was truly mindblowingly good racing game for 1996. heck even though I was 7 year old at the time when I played it, it was so user friendly for someone so young and utter noobie for racing games, yet as mentioned you could really get lot out of it even as "pro" racer. And there is just something about its retro-graphics that still hits me hard. Also played lot of GP3 but to me it also didnt leave the same kind of mark and feel that GP2 did.
Crammond was just a genius, getting games like Revs and Stunt Car Racer running at a playable speed on a 6502 processor is basically witchcraft. 7-8 years later there were still sprite-based racing games coming out that had fewer FPS. Hard Drivin' is a good example of what happens when someone of lesser ability tries to do a 3D racing game on 8-bit hardware.
Hard Drivin' arcade was great though.
Sister got an Amiga 1200 around 1992 packaging with Crammonds Grand Prix.
STILL the best F1 game I've ever played
I have so many good memories with F1GP :) Still remember how I lost the lead in the final corner of a full distance race in Mexico. Tried to soldier on to the checkered flag with a broken front wing, but Mansell overtook at the last moment. So bitter :D
@@TedMeat we used to play 2 or player taken turns I would hate when my sister handed me back the joystick for me to find out the AI had lost me like 5 places 🤣
I agree that gp2 had something special. It felt revolutionary at the time. My favourite is grand prix 1 though, on my dad's 486 back in the day you had a genuine feeling of speed. I felt I had to put a certain number of hours in to achieve a result on the kart track on Sunday afternoon as a 10 year old, this was when I realised there was real world benefit in sim racing.
I bought all of those up to GP2 when they came out. We played GP2 so much I could what section of what track my flatmate was at just by listening to the gear changes! GP2 was amazing.
To be fair, AI killing you all the time in Indy 500 is super realistic to how Indy was at the time LOL
Just watched this Ted, what a great video! Loved it all.
I spent many hours on GP3 / GP3 2000 “back in the day”. So my personal scores for that game would have been higher. Apart from that I thought your own personal order was spot on, backed up by some great analysis! This video was a really fun watch. And made me feel like downloading some of the Indycar offerings 👍🏼 Another thing I strongly agreed upon… immersion! That’s the key ingredient!
All were amazing for their time, anyone who wasn't around for them I would recommend trying to track them down and give them a go to see just how good they were
For the track models in F1GP, I distinctly remember how big of a deal the manual made of it with the statements that you could see the dome in Mexico City if your computer was powerful enough or the details at Monaco, and that always blew me away running F1GP
Oh it was the dome :D I always thought it was a some sort of a hill... of sand.
Geoff Crammond was so much ahead of its time that, to me, GP4, as a single player experience, is still unbeaten...
I agree. As I said at the beginning of the video I would have liked to give the immersion or "race experience" a bigger weight. Had I done that, GP-series would have dominated this :D
What a joy to watch. Thank you for a brilliant video on the best racing sims ever made! 🙂
Thanks for watching, great to hear you enjoyed!
man, what a great analysis. Really incredible! Liked a lot! tks
Great video Ted. Streaming myself Grand Prix 2 mainly makes it obviously my game of choice.
Something I loved about GP4 was the Hot Seat mode. I used to love taking control of both McLaren cars and taking turns trying to get them to the lead.
Haha, I actually did something similar with GP2 some time ago :D I had a battle against my first ever racing wheel from 1998 versus my current wheel&pedals using the turn-based multiplayer in GP2: th-cam.com/video/RvDrhyfz6kE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=8zhEpMrVlm0x7HXo
The Gp crammond series can do proper wet weather with transition but EA cannot do it over 25 years later.
In the past, Electronic Arts released good racing games (early 00s), with its greatest turning point being F1 Challenge 99-02 created by Images Space Incorporated (creators of rFactor 1, rFactor Pro and rFactor 2) and distributed by EA Sports , the last dedicated Official F1 simulator and one of the most emblematic games in the history of simracing along with Nascar Racing 2003 in what I would like to call the "second generation of simracing". In this game there is pseudodynamic weather, there is track evolution in real time and it can be modified in the game files even minute by minute (Only for experienced modders), the modeling of F1 Challenge at the physics level is quite impressive, especially in the suspension design and the feeling of the cars, from this game came other purist simulators that use the same graphics engine such as the famous GTR saga by SimBin, Race07, RaceRoom, Automobilista 1, several Nascars games from 2004-2008 (Nascar Thunder 2004 on PC is literally a pre-rFactor) and even Project Cars 1 all those games have their inspiration in this simulator.
😂 EA can't make even a proper damage model. But instead of enhancing what really matters,they decide to add unnecessary things and mess up handling
So much memories from my childhood… thanks for the video!
My pleasure :)
I had a bit of a prediction on what the top-3 is based on my experiences and it is very accurate.
I'd perhaps personally set GP3 on third because I spent much more time with it than GP2 as a teenager, having done a (cringy) series with it along with fellow friends at that time... but in retrospect and today's analysis I agree GP2 deserves it more.
Great video, no arguements with the list!
Thanks, great to hear you enjoyed!
I think you nailed the ranking. If you’d asked me to do this just by gut feeling, they’d have come out in the exact same order. Crammond’s games were total immersion. Kaamer’s were technically perfect, and they complemented and contrasted each other so well.
I must have invested thousands of hours in GP2 back in the 90s. My mates and me used to do full seasons at full race distance!
One thing I remember about Indycar Racing was in the braking zones if you had a car behind you, you better get out of the way because they would just instantaneously slow down and rear-end you. Also the spinout retirements were totally random for the AI and often looked silly.
was playing GP2, watched this video, going back to play some more
Excellent choice 👍
ahahah so funny your white t-shirt... i liked all those games....i miss that time...
Same here. 90s was good.
Great video man. You must be same age as me as we played all same sims. Remember another crammond game called stunt car racer? Was good fun multiplayer linking two amigas
Never played stunt car racer actually! Should give it a try some day!
@@TedMeat it’s mental. Like a rocket car on a roller coaster
I'm planning to install Grand Prix 2 and IndyCar Racing 2 on my phone, configuring them through Dosbox to work with my clip-on Bluetooth controller. The left analog stick can be used to steer and the shoulder buttons are analog too, if I'm not mistaken both games have support for joystick acceleration/breaking so it'll be possible to map the analog buttons to these too. The right analog stick can be used to shift gears up and down, and other buttons can be used for auxiliary functions such as changing break balances or the turbocharger. Basically turning them into console racing sims.
I think this could be a very good niche for them in this day and age, because I'm not aware of any console racing sims that approach their level of realism and customizability.
Me and my uncle played ICR2 over LAN all the time. I used to love the low revving Buick since i was a Menards fan as a kid. F1 GP had Phoenix and it was so fun!
I started play in GP2. It was a great love with that big set of tuning possibilities especially when you play Ace mode. When you play Championship then you start to understand all features of this game.
Then I played GP3, GP3 Season 2000, GP4
GP4 is more dynamically. But the championship with wet racing in GP3 was incredible, especially when the road starts to dry out.
For me GP2 is best for its RaceTracks (old tracks, old Hockenheim)
Gp3 is best for the wheather and wheels from cockpit.
Gp4 is good.
I also played indycar 500, but didn't become so much fun.
Fantastic video, Ted!
As said many times, I'm a Grand Prix 2 guy, just as you.
Grand Prix Legends is probably even superior, but frustrating to play in my opinion. Also, I find less immersive to drive cars so old.
Thank you, glad you enjoyed :) I don't think you get the same level of immersion with any other sim outside the GP series.
Great review. GP2 was my intro into open-wheel racing, and my intro into league racing (1999 - albeit off-line)! Spent many enjoyable hours trying to conquer those tracks. Still have it and the original box/manual. Had GPL at the time too but my 200mhz PC wouldn't run it.
For me personally GP 2 will ever have a place in my heart and will be my favorite. IT was my First Game i played and IT still lookes Well today
Great re-cap of my gaming history! I played Revs on a BBC Micro (?) with a home made analogue joystick. It is still the best. I don't think the grooved dry tires is an error. For a time the dry tires were grooved to reduce the amount of grip.
I still play and have installed on my Windows 10 gaming PC two games from the distant past. Grand Prix Legends and Nascar Racing 2003 with Indycar mod installed. Though the graphics are crude compared to todays games, the overall racing is still fun with both games.
Back when they first came out, I played both these games hours on end. I only did Nascar Racing 2003 online against other racers around the US on the free Sierra Servers.
I also know these two games are still going strong even today in the year 2024.
Thanks for the video. Take care.
The fact that F1 drivers are racing on the descendent, and real racing drivers are using it as training is a massive testament to how good NASCAR 2003 (and 2002, which was just a more raw version) was. The development crew, and Kaemmer, moved on after EA (fortunately, as it turns out?) bought the NASCAR licence exclusivvity and developed iRacing out of NASCAR 2003.
I used to play Indy 500, set a good qualifying lap and then see if I could do a lap and crash the whole field and then have a clear track to win. The replay of the crashes was a big part of that game for me haha.
4:25 -- Hugh Jengine XD XD XD Edit: oh nevermind you mention it a few seconds later.
I was always a huge fan of Papyrus racing games, my first being the original NASCAR Racing, but Grand Prix Legends was so far above and beyond anything they had created before. It's still an amazing game today, and even better with mods.
I think that nowadays with easy internet additions and expansions and the sheer expanse of games and gaming - people do forget that GPL had The Nurburgring (and old Spa!). Just the sheer concept that the entire track was included and could be raced on, was pretty insane at that time, and a huge accomplishment and very very special.
For me nothing beats GP4 and the way it handles dynamic weather.
Not even iRacing with its latest update.
Well, iRacing "discovered" rain 3 months ago and GP3 had it in 1999 😅
Your imagination was at play, that is waaaaay better than any Invidia graphics card nowadays. This is why these games felt more immersive.
Yes, the old games also felt they had more than met the eye :)
I just wish I could run my GP2 on my new computer again. With the 1991 season mod that had Senna on it. Just thought about it, going to be 30 years that the great Senna died on May 1st 1994.
Played GP1 on a relatives computer, threw away the lead in my first race and finshed second. Later when I bought a PC I got a copy of GP2 and loved it, There was also so much mod support for it - you could get updated car designs and liveries, even tracks. Could add new teams so I used to add my own team in and/or add back other teams.
later got Indy Car for some variety. After that, I never really had a PC that could play the newer games at the best levels.
Friedrich Bond - 007
Licence to drive.
I'm really agree with your list particularly your analysis of Geoff Crammond's games. I never really had a great experience with Grandprix legends even if I always liked this game.
GPL was best on multiplayer, remember having great online races back in the days. As a single player it was a bit iffy but with mods it's very enjoyable now.
I remember playing the 200 laps race of Indy 500 on the Amiga 500 with a mouse. Got rear ended at the last corner on the last lap.
Oh man that must have been soul crushing :D
Amaising to see that recent racing simulation are not that advance compared to those classic sims.
great video.i think you should,if you havent done already, try nascar racing season 2003.thats a great game and i think its the best sim of that era and a joy to play with a steering wheel.
Thanks! I did try to run NR2003 couple of years ago but it didn't work. It would have required me to loosen some security settings in BIOS to run it. Since I use my PC for my company, I can't tamper with security settings.
However now that I have a dedicated Windows 7 PC for some retro sims I will definitely try out NR2003 once I'll have the time. Just watched GP2Joey racing in NR2003 and it looked fun as hell: th-cam.com/video/2ho68sXcKoU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=mMznM2k0YQFuf7Zw
Great video @Ted. Do you or anybody know where I can find the Michael 82 fan track for Monaco and GP2.
My list- GP2, GPL, IndyCar 2 then GP4.
Thanks 😊
You can find it on the forums at grandprix2.de. Here's a direct link but I don't know if TH-cam brakes it or not:
grandprix2.de/gp2forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23278
Thanks Ted got it from your link. Much appreciated 👏
My favourite is often not what I think is the best too. That was fun.
Thank you Steve :) I guess I managed to be somewhat objective since my favorite didn't win :D
basically without Microprose and Papyrus we would have none of the SIM's we have today. adding to that most of the Military Simulations that also came via Microprose . it is still a Mystery just why Geoff Crammond dropped out of the industry even though there were some follow up games planned like Stunt Car driver and the legendry strangeness oddness Sentinel .lets also remember Geoff also did one of the first air combat sims Spitfire 40 also on the BBC Model B computer..
thanks for the trip back to those early sims the only GP game I missed was GP2 that was only a PC game back in the day unlike GP1 for both Amiga and PC. so my first Dos PC GP game was from GP3 forwards and with GPL and then Nascar 2003 . I remember GP4 was a PC killer most could not even dare run in high settings without your PC having a meltdown. I think it was about a year later before I could get it to run in higher setting at which point I had moved onto the EA F1 series and the ISI Motors engine and its massive take up with the Modders many who moved onto form some of the Sim Developers we still use today most coming from the old Sim-bin modding team.
still this was ground zero and a starting point for all those mods and things we have come to love.
GP2 I have played a lot too. Just "had to" adjust the power relations into more realistic. Originally the top 5 (Schumi, Williamses and Ferraris) were far too superior. I´d also liked to get all 28 cars on grid
I think Revs must rank higher due to the fact it ran inside 23K (yes, 23 killobytes) on a BBC Micro. I've written longer emails than 23K! BBC micros had 32K of total RAM, but when you subtracted the amount required for graphics ram and the OS, there was approx 23K remaining - and Revs fits into that, including all the graphics, AI, tracks, control mechanism and physics. I remember Revs being released in '85, but it must have been in development during 84. Released by the legendary Acornsoft (who never released a bad game).
The ones I've played:
S tier (still holds up to this day) - NR2003, GP2
A tier (technically janky but still fun) - NR 2/3, GPL, GP3
B tier (too janky today but was great back in the day) - F1GP, ICR2, NR4, NR1
C tier (mostly a curiosity) - ICR1, Indy 500
Thanks for the list. Just answered another comment about NR2003, I'd love to try it out. Would be about time huh 😅 (had some problems running it when I tried couple of years ago).
i love GP2 but man when GP4 came out, all the shortcomings of GP2 were gone in GP4, wet weather, a dynamic weather system that is just now being beaten, all cars look different and have full 3d, an AI that is better than GP2. only thing is that because its based on the 2001 season, there are only 22 cars on track, so simulating the old seasons from the 90s that had 26 cars you cant do and thats where GP2 shines
Never got into Revs back in the day. Indy 500 on my amiga A1200 was brilliant. but when grand prix came out it was a game changer.
The tremendous loss of these two legends in the sim racing genre is still felt today. It was Revs on the Acorn BBC Model B that got me into sim racing. Hard to master, but even harder to give up.
Haha, I know. REVS is one of those games where you develop an obsession for it :D
Congratulations on the work, it reminded me of good times, playing these games on the keyboard. Cart Precision Racing deserved an honrorable menition in is evaluation even thought it was not form papyrus. In indycar racing, there was a .txt file tha could modify the AI like skills and even drive names, so you could narrow donw those weird driving skills.
I was introduced to Indy 500 in 1992. I'd never seen a PC before, but I've owned one ever since and still spend about 15 hours a week on my favourite sim'.
I like them both, my first sim racing games were GP2 and Indy500. I could never get into IR2, mainly because the AI went from 100+ to 0 in a blink. Both the other games immersed me in different ways.
I often wonder how much further ahead sim racing would be if Papyrus and Microprose still existed in the present time. Both did things that seem absent in modern sims.
Nice video! But about your comment on tire wear in ICR2 not having effect on performance, I beg to differ. At more demanding tracks (like Michigan) you can see the difference.
If you do a full stint, by the end of the run the car will be obviously faster than when you started, but if you take the same race setup, low fuel and put new tires in, the lap times are going to be faster.
Thanks for the comment! I'm sure you're right about that one, I've just never noticed any difference in handling with worn tyres but it might be I just haven't bumped into a situation where that comes noticable.
The crammond games were incredible. They could be unbelievably accessible, but also really in depth for hardcore play. I don't think modern games have ever been able to replicate that.
GP1 is the goat for me. There was something about that physics engine that was so simple but so complex. The feel of the fuel burning off and the tyres coming into range and fading is something else you don't seem to get so subtley these days.
GP2 came out half finished. Never really got on with that one. GP3 and 4 were superb but that's when things started getting to complex with mind numbingly complex car settings.
I absolutely loved Grand Prix Legends. Still do, although I haven't actually played it in many years now. Was pretty decent at it too.
A great video. GP4 all the way for me. It's a shame these great games haven't appeared on a console. I believe GP4 was to be released on the Dreamcast or xbox at some stage, but never happened sadly.
I havent played any other geoff grammond or papyrus sims apart from GP Legends, GP4, and NR2003, I gotta give the rest a try one day, I also never grew up with these games as I was born after them. I thoroughly enjoyed GP4 and I did also like GPL and NR2003, but I neverp layed them enough to really get into it you know.
Oh and fun fact, IIRC, Indianapolis 500 is pretty much the first racing game you can legit turn around and smash everyone else on the track to pieces creating hours more fun,
Yes! In ICR1 it was way more fun to drive the wrong way for maximum carnage than to actually compete 😅
As someone who hasn't played any of these games, I feel like Papyrus wins by default for the sheer existence of Grand Prix Legends. We need more games like that.
I remember playing Revs in the late 80s. One of my friends worked out how to hack the game and change the driver names, so we were racing against A. Prost, N. Mansell, A.Senna etc.
Ah, pretty cool! I wonder if the driver names are somewhere in text format.
@@TedMeat from what I remember, they were held as ASCII characters in a binary file, so it was a bit fiddly to change. The guy that figured out how to do it ended up becoming the CTO for a multinational tech company, so a pretty smart individual!
I used to play Indy500 with a Microsoft flight sim yoke. It worked fairly well. I run a copy of GP2 on my mobile tablet running dosbox. And on my sim rig I run GP4.
great list, love GPL xD tried so hard to get GP4 to run on my machine but no luck ;(
Have you tried the GP4 installer? Can be found here:
www.grandprixgames.org/read.php?4,1156768
(You'll have to copy/paste the links because TH-cam breaks it if you try to click).
I played all those games and I agree 100% with the verdict.
I didn't know that nowadays there are communities in GPL... I need to take a look into it because I didn't enjoy it due to my poor wheel at that time. This scenario makes a hard game to play.
I haven't really done any online racing in GPL but here's one community for example: www.formulado.hu/weekly/index.php
GP4 in terms of AI is still way ahead of todays sims, it's just so well balanced and it also feels your racing against a real person you can even force them to make a mistake!
After watching this and GPLaps - I really need to get these older games working on my rig. I loved Indy500 back then, but playing on a wheel will be infinitely better than the keyboard :D
Yes it is! Only problem is the digital inputs on throttle and brake. It makes it very hard sometimes to cope with weight transfer of the car when there's no precision on throttle. With a keyboard you can "tap" the throttle key but it's harder with pedals.
Love this, great stuff! Which version of Revs were you playing? BBC? I have the C64 version which has very strange joystick or paddle controls. Keyboard is even worse, with different keys for more or less steering rotation. Not sure there would be any way of getting it to work with a wheel with any of the emulators. I wouldn't mind trying the BBC version with a wheel.
Similarly, which version of Indy 500 and F1GP? DOS, I'm guessing. The Amiga and ST versions both seem good as well but again I imagine for wheels you need the PC version using DOSBox-ECE, as with GP2.
I would love to get GP4 working properly, but have always had issues. Either graphical glitches, recognising pedals (Combined axes seems to be the only solution, whereas GP3 works fine with separate axes), or just getting the game to run properly with or without GPxPatch.
Anyway 11/10 video, cheers
Great to hear you liked what you saw! I had the BBC Micro version of REVS but I also would like to try the C64 version. Actually I have the C64 REVS installed on VICE and I got to the point where I was starting to figure out if I can get my wheel working but then got busy with other stuff. I know it's pretty much the same game but I'm just curious of the controls / control lag in C64 vs BBS.
And yeah, Indy 500 was the DOS version.
Great games. I was always part of the F1 Challenge 99-02 gang because I feel that game was more enjoyable to drive on a wheel, (and eventually paved the way to rFactor), but one thing that made me jealous of GP4 was the amount of immersion and detail compared to the EA games more simple "pick up and race" gameplay.
@16:50 Is this a mod to make it look so crisp?
(Edit: now I realize it's not a mod and it's not that crisp either! But when you compare it to the graphics of ICR1, it looks so much better)
Haha, actually when I was watching the video I was wondering how the hell does ICR2 looks so good :D But indeed, it's ICR1 next to it.
Indycar was my childhood. :O
How do you capture the footage from the wrappers? I've tried but OBS Studio doesn't work and VSDC causes slow downs. Cheers!
Really enjoyed the first 2 F1 games from MicroProse when I was young
I could never get "comfortable" with the actual driving aspect of Geoff Crammond sims as much as I tried though I think some of that was because I struggle (relatively speaking) with cars that rely heavily on aero whereas I am very comfortable with cars that rely mainly upon mechanical grip. What I also noticed with Papyrus sims is that they needed minimal to no tweaking - it might have taken a couple of hours to get it all set up optimally but compare that to competing sims - especially these days - it was no effort at all! I am actually still using Race07 on an offline Windows 7 PC and I am actually dreading the day that PC dies and I adopt a modern sim and modern hardware since the configuration options and complexity these days are mind-bending.
For me the charm is that you *can't* get comfortable with the driving in GP2-GP4. No matter how much you drive, the car is always willing to kick you in the face if your concentration slips even a little bit. You just need total commitment all the time, which imo goes well with the F1 cars in the 90s. Also that's why I like to do my races live on TH-cam, because if I just drive on my own it's very difficult to stay committed for a full race. Here I have to, because people are watching 😅