anaerobic coffee is an interesting topic for sure. As long as there is demand for it people will continue experimenting with it. I just hope producers will use awesome beans for this process instead of using random coffees as mentioned in the video.
What you called 'fancy' in this video is real dude. In Indonesia it is called 'Wine' Process. But in just a normal plastic bag, not a bucket. Like you said, the coffees demand higher prices than regular but still delicious full washed coffee. Do you know what it tastes like? Like its name, it is very winey / over-fermented. It has ghosting effect on the grinder. So any coffee that is going to be ground after that Wine Process coffee will have 'fruit punch' notes. As Indonesian myself, I wonder why many Indonesians love that coffee.
Because southern asian love fermented food, fermenting food is their culture for centuries. They found the over fermented flavour as unique taste. You know that the definition of delicious coffee depends on preferences, knowledge, culture of the drinker. Eventhough In specialty coffee perspective, over fermented taste is a defect.
@@AntaAlZ Every parts of the world has its own fermented food I suppose. However, not every fermented stuffs is delicious. If it is, everyday we will be drinking iced Apple Cider Vinegar instead of sweetened ice tea. I have a different theory though regarding this favoritism over 'Wine' coffee. Indonesians always consume bitter cheap robusta instant coffee for years if not decades. So in their mind, everything coffee is bitter even though that's not the case anymore since the booming of specialty coffee industry in Indonesia. But the stereotype regarding to coffee remains. So most Indonesians will say coffee is bitter or the flavor is 'coffee' even though they taste Hacienda La Esmeralda Panama Geisha. But it is not the case with this Wine Coffee. The Wine Coffee flavor is like 'fruit punch bomb' so it is very different. Not coffee flavor you can say. And of course the marketing. Wine in Indonesian's mind is expensive and prestigious.Only people with high economic class drink wine. Almost no medium class people can afford wine for their daily indulges. But 'Wine' Processed coffee is way cheaper than real wine. No wonder they love coffee with 'wine' process.
@@dwikafebrianto3016 I agree with all of your statement bro.. It's marketing that makes "wine" coffee famous. The target in the market is people who cant drink wine, they are just interested with the taste of the coffee like they never had before. But this coffee could be a rabbit hole or a gate for them to get into specialty coffee world.
I think with cacao, the beans are fermented with the pulp/mucilage and that brings out the chocolate notes and I feel coffee could benefit from the same process
Hi, thank you very much for bringing up this topic and opening the floor to this discussion. I have tried a couple of outstanding coffees processed using variants of anaerobic fermentation method. I’ve also been aware of some less successful experiments, and I’ve followed the experiments of a quite well-known, no-nonsense Russian roaster with what he calls the “post-fermentation”: artificially adding the distinct flavours to the processed coffee. So what was suggested is that often what we believe to be the result of this anaerobic fermentation can be or has been achieved by, for example, simply adding some cinnamon to the green beans. Apart from this serious questioning of the transparency and integrity of some producers, I think that the issue is symptomatic of a hoist of larger and more serious problems in the industry. On the one hand, there are producers who suffer from low coffee prices: if it takes introducing a specific fermentation process that can compensate for soil, bean quality, sloppy selection, and increase a farmer’s margin, than zero-oxygen fermentation it be! A producer may find it more viable to invest in equipment for fermentation that will definitely help them sell beans here and now than to make long-term investments in soil, varietal selection, etc. I am not saying this is the right decision, but I can see a logic behind it. At the same time, the demand side also has a role: we want “fancy” coffees, something new and exciting, always hungry for “mind-blowing coffees”, with our minds ever harder to blow. I hope this trend isn’t really here to stay, because it seems to have little to do with either sustainability or quality that the specilaty industry is/should be focused on.
100% agree. I’ve been growing concerned about the popularity of these styles of coffees, and just how much that opens up the possibility of letting poor quality coffees slip through.
Hey Patrik, really great in-depth video on the pros and cons of these newer fermentation methods that are emerging. I'm just curious about the future implications for these kinds of processing to help elevate farms or regions around the world who simply don't have access to the type of growing conditions, equipment, or varietals that other regions do. Could fermentation potentially help bring lower quality coffee up into a middle ground for producers, or even robustas for example, and particularly for rising topics like climate change's effect on the coffee growing industry. I wonder if there can be a balance between just masking bad product and actually elevating a product in communities around the world who need support.
Hey my name Rakshith . I am from India. I really liked the approach that you are taking towards farming. I am a coffee grower. I would really like to gain the knowledge about processing method. I would like to work with you guys. Thanks for the info.
It may just me but I find that, regardless of the quality of the green, I get really early adaption with most anaerobic processed beans. I very quickly start to taste/smell less of the identifiable terroir notes and really all I'm getting is the taste/smell of the process (even with the recent coff.coll 'Jimma'). Its so frustrating...
I have tasted some coffee with anaerobic process, no matter how amazing they are, the tasting notes are less connected with the countries(region) they come from. It’s always happy to have a tasty coffee,however if the tastes are not related to the region or varieties anymore, is this still the same thing we are looking for?
That's a bit of what I've experienced too. The other thing I see sometimes is overlapping processes that may be working against each other. The law of diminishing returns is always in effect. The trick is to figure out where the line is drawn naturally.
Most experiamental coffees I've tried ere straight up dissapointing. Even if I liked it after the first sip, I soon started noticing the off flavours. I usually prefer a good washed coffee as they usually taste the cleanest.
It couldn't be further than the truth. The 'uniqueness' doesn't last long. I say anaerobic coffee has very strong tart notes which I don't really enjoy it much. That's why I hate new innovations in coffee because hey, coffee world is already complex. Without inventing something new, we always learn something new in coffee.
I would remind everyone that sometimes choice in post harvesting method is sometimes made outside the producers hands. E.g. Weather change or droughts. It would be unwise for a farmer to attempt a natural process during a particularly rainy season. The benefit of being able to take what would be lower quality beans, and re-inject some quality back in via post harvest processing is much akin to the whole animal butchery methodology. Days before a weather shift, your coffee can be great, and at that point you're financially invested as a farmer, so you need to think of solutions to still salvage your entire harvest. Anaerobic ferment can be more than just something to impress at competition. It can provide coffee the same consistent control as the wine industry.
You can affect flavor through processing You can lower acidity through processing Cleanness you cannot get from processing clean vibrant coffees can only come from quality green. The finish is where a coffees quality is expressed.
Anaerobic coffees done right are really good they add a creaminess. The issue I have is with people flavouring coffees, there people literally adding flavours to coffees.
Do you find that there are farmers who are happy to allow certain lots of coffee they grow to be processed using anaerobic methods because it will lead to more exposure to their coffee by green buyers and coffee companies? I recently actually had an anaerobic Costa Rica from a roaster that did taste like cinnamon. I found it was delightful and while I didn’t experience negative flavors from poor quality green, it was just so strongly cinnamon flavored that is all I could taste. You said that can in a way distract from the work the farmer has put into it, or the terroir, which I do understand after having experienced this Costa Rica because I couldn’t tell you a thing about it besides “cinnamon.” But I actually kept drinking it because it was nice, and what I’m wondering is - does that case suggest a benefit for the farmer instead of a distraction from his work? Will Roasters and green buyers notice this coffee and be more intrigued about other coffees this farmer has grown, leading to more purchasing? Or is that one anaerobic coffee really not a good descriptive of the farmers work - because it was just the processing method that resulted in the overall tasting experience?
I completely agree. I think that process-driven flavours in coffee are a double edge sword, Anaerobic coffees are great for competitions because have really defined flavours that are easy to identify, at the same time in my experience they lack complexity. Also not just inferior coffee quality is hidden by this kind of process but also bad roasting, these coffees are almost TOO forgiving if roasted too light or too dark.
I don't fully agree with your take. Yes, quality farming and quality beans are fundamentally important, same as they always had. But only so many people want it even can participate in the high end. If a new procreating methods brings more variety to the mid and lower end, why skills anyone complain? Yes, it's a new modality, and as such there is hype, but also a premium for producers experimenting with new techniques. As these become more common and understood by a broader audience, so will the pricing find equalibeium.
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anaerobic coffee is an interesting topic for sure. As long as there is demand for it people will continue experimenting with it. I just hope producers will use awesome beans for this process instead of using random coffees as mentioned in the video.
This is the type of content that draws me to you. Very thoughtful.
What you called 'fancy' in this video is real dude. In Indonesia it is called 'Wine' Process. But in just a normal plastic bag, not a bucket. Like you said, the coffees demand higher prices than regular but still delicious full washed coffee. Do you know what it tastes like? Like its name, it is very winey / over-fermented. It has ghosting effect on the grinder. So any coffee that is going to be ground after that Wine Process coffee will have 'fruit punch' notes. As Indonesian myself, I wonder why many Indonesians love that coffee.
Because southern asian love fermented food, fermenting food is their culture for centuries. They found the over fermented flavour as unique taste. You know that the definition of delicious coffee depends on preferences, knowledge, culture of the drinker. Eventhough In specialty coffee perspective, over fermented taste is a defect.
@@AntaAlZ Every parts of the world has its own fermented food I suppose. However, not every fermented stuffs is delicious. If it is, everyday we will be drinking iced Apple Cider Vinegar instead of sweetened ice tea. I have a different theory though regarding this favoritism over 'Wine' coffee. Indonesians always consume bitter cheap robusta instant coffee for years if not decades. So in their mind, everything coffee is bitter even though that's not the case anymore since the booming of specialty coffee industry in Indonesia. But the stereotype regarding to coffee remains. So most Indonesians will say coffee is bitter or the flavor is 'coffee' even though they taste Hacienda La Esmeralda Panama Geisha. But it is not the case with this Wine Coffee. The Wine Coffee flavor is like 'fruit punch bomb' so it is very different. Not coffee flavor you can say. And of course the marketing. Wine in Indonesian's mind is expensive and prestigious.Only people with high economic class drink wine. Almost no medium class people can afford wine for their daily indulges. But 'Wine' Processed coffee is way cheaper than real wine. No wonder they love coffee with 'wine' process.
@@dwikafebrianto3016 I agree with all of your statement bro.. It's marketing that makes "wine" coffee famous. The target in the market is people who cant drink wine, they are just interested with the taste of the coffee like they never had before. But this coffee could be a rabbit hole or a gate for them to get into specialty coffee world.
@@AntaAlZ Yeah until they find out that their favorite 'Wine' Coffee is nothing but defect (according to SCA standard) and potentially carcinogenic
wow, lets be specific, i really want to taste that coffee
I think with cacao, the beans are fermented with the pulp/mucilage and that brings out the chocolate notes and I feel coffee could benefit from the same process
"That's someone putting coffee in a bucket." LOL.
Hi, thank you very much for bringing up this topic and opening the floor to this discussion. I have tried a couple of outstanding coffees processed using variants of anaerobic fermentation method. I’ve also been aware of some less successful experiments, and I’ve followed the experiments of a quite well-known, no-nonsense Russian roaster with what he calls the “post-fermentation”: artificially adding the distinct flavours to the processed coffee. So what was suggested is that often what we believe to be the result of this anaerobic fermentation can be or has been achieved by, for example, simply adding some cinnamon to the green beans. Apart from this serious questioning of the transparency and integrity of some producers, I think that the issue is symptomatic of a hoist of larger and more serious problems in the industry. On the one hand, there are producers who suffer from low coffee prices: if it takes introducing a specific fermentation process that can compensate for soil, bean quality, sloppy selection, and increase a farmer’s margin, than zero-oxygen fermentation it be! A producer may find it more viable to invest in equipment for fermentation that will definitely help them sell beans here and now than to make long-term investments in soil, varietal selection, etc. I am not saying this is the right decision, but I can see a logic behind it. At the same time, the demand side also has a role: we want “fancy” coffees, something new and exciting, always hungry for “mind-blowing coffees”, with our minds ever harder to blow. I hope this trend isn’t really here to stay, because it seems to have little to do with either sustainability or quality that the specilaty industry is/should be focused on.
100% agree. I’ve been growing concerned about the popularity of these styles of coffees, and just how much that opens up the possibility of letting poor quality coffees slip through.
Such a true topic
I relate with his thoughts about appreciation of quality of coffee beans to farms
Hey Patrik, really great in-depth video on the pros and cons of these newer fermentation methods that are emerging. I'm just curious about the future implications for these kinds of processing to help elevate farms or regions around the world who simply don't have access to the type of growing conditions, equipment, or varietals that other regions do. Could fermentation potentially help bring lower quality coffee up into a middle ground for producers, or even robustas for example, and particularly for rising topics like climate change's effect on the coffee growing industry. I wonder if there can be a balance between just masking bad product and actually elevating a product in communities around the world who need support.
very well said
Hey my name Rakshith . I am from India. I really liked the approach that you are taking towards farming. I am a coffee grower. I would really like to gain the knowledge about processing method. I would like to work with you guys. Thanks for the info.
It may just me but I find that, regardless of the quality of the green, I get really early adaption with most anaerobic processed beans. I very quickly start to taste/smell less of the identifiable terroir notes and really all I'm getting is the taste/smell of the process (even with the recent coff.coll 'Jimma'). Its so frustrating...
this was an amazing in depth video. thank you.
I have tasted some coffee with anaerobic process, no matter how amazing they are, the tasting notes are less connected with the countries(region) they come from.
It’s always happy to have a tasty coffee,however if the tastes are not related to the region or varieties anymore, is this still the same thing we are looking for?
That's a bit of what I've experienced too. The other thing I see sometimes is overlapping processes that may be working against each other. The law of diminishing returns is always in effect. The trick is to figure out where the line is drawn naturally.
Most experiamental coffees I've tried ere straight up dissapointing. Even if I liked it after the first sip, I soon started noticing the off flavours. I usually prefer a good washed coffee as they usually taste the cleanest.
It couldn't be further than the truth. The 'uniqueness' doesn't last long. I say anaerobic coffee has very strong tart notes which I don't really enjoy it much. That's why I hate new innovations in coffee because hey, coffee world is already complex. Without inventing something new, we always learn something new in coffee.
Jaka Šter strongly agreed
You can have an anaerobic processed Washed, or Natural coffees.
I would remind everyone that sometimes choice in post harvesting method is sometimes made outside the producers hands. E.g. Weather change or droughts. It would be unwise for a farmer to attempt a natural process during a particularly rainy season. The benefit of being able to take what would be lower quality beans, and re-inject some quality back in via post harvest processing is much akin to the whole animal butchery methodology. Days before a weather shift, your coffee can be great, and at that point you're financially invested as a farmer, so you need to think of solutions to still salvage your entire harvest.
Anaerobic ferment can be more than just something to impress at competition. It can provide coffee the same consistent control as the wine industry.
So how does one identify whether a bean is of higher quality and wasn't simply processed in plastic bags/bins before purchasing?
You can affect flavor through processing
You can lower acidity through processing
Cleanness you cannot get from processing clean vibrant coffees can only come from quality green.
The finish is where a coffees quality is expressed.
Anaerobic coffees done right are really good they add a creaminess.
The issue I have is with people flavouring coffees, there people literally adding flavours to coffees.
Infuse coffee
Do you find that there are farmers who are happy to allow certain lots of coffee they grow to be processed using anaerobic methods because it will lead to more exposure to their coffee by green buyers and coffee companies? I recently actually had an anaerobic Costa Rica from a roaster that did taste like cinnamon. I found it was delightful and while I didn’t experience negative flavors from poor quality green, it was just so strongly cinnamon flavored that is all I could taste. You said that can in a way distract from the work the farmer has put into it, or the terroir, which I do understand after having experienced this Costa Rica because I couldn’t tell you a thing about it besides “cinnamon.” But I actually kept drinking it because it was nice, and what I’m wondering is - does that case suggest a benefit for the farmer instead of a distraction from his work? Will Roasters and green buyers notice this coffee and be more intrigued about other coffees this farmer has grown, leading to more purchasing? Or is that one anaerobic coffee really not a good descriptive of the farmers work - because it was just the processing method that resulted in the overall tasting experience?
Brazil be doing that shit right……
I completely agree. I think that process-driven flavours in coffee are a double edge sword, Anaerobic coffees are great for competitions because have really defined flavours that are easy to identify, at the same time in my experience they lack complexity. Also not just inferior coffee quality is hidden by this kind of process but also bad roasting, these coffees are almost TOO forgiving if roasted too light or too dark.
I don't fully agree with your take. Yes, quality farming and quality beans are fundamentally important, same as they always had. But only so many people want it even can participate in the high end. If a new procreating methods brings more variety to the mid and lower end, why skills anyone complain?
Yes, it's a new modality, and as such there is hype, but also a premium for producers experimenting with new techniques. As these become more common and understood by a broader audience, so will the pricing find equalibeium.