I recently encountered, for the first time, an asexual main character in a novel. The character Anika from Surviving Daybreak and Daybreak Sentinel by Kendra Merritt is an ace woman who became a colonist on a exoplanet. The trouble with this is that the colony wanted only heterosexuals for their first couple waves of colonists so they could ensure sufficient population growth. Anika had to hide her orientation to get into the colonist program, and once she was on the new world, her orientation was a minor issue. The author still handled it with respect.
So wait, a group wants to accomplish something with specific parameters so they select a specific set of ppl and someone who inhibits that project comes on and nothing comes of it? Sounds lame to me.
@@melancholyman369 They were recruiting heterosexuals because they wanted there to be a lot of children. Thing is, being ace doesn't mean you don't want children, any more than being gay means you don't want or can't have children. Plenty of ace people end up having kids. Anika was willing to have kids for the sake of the colony. But she also became uniquely important to the colony's survival in other ways. The book makes it clear that the strategy of only recruiting heterosexuals was unnecessary, and that if Anika hadn't lied on her application to get to the colony anyway, there would be no living humans on the new colony world within just a few months of arrival.
So as a straight guy what advice would you give for believably portraying queer characters in society that's going to mean that they are predominately closeted? IE how do set up "they were queer all along" and have all your queer readers go no shit?
So my advice would be to have them notice their sexual preferred people the same way straight characters do. Think about the way you reacted to girls vs guys, especially in the beginning of puberty, then flip that on its head. That would be my advice for bi (pan), lesbian or gay. In prose, a straight guy looking at a woman he’s attracted to should be obvious right? With the word choices and emotional reactions. Same for queer attraction. Like if I see a girl I find attractive, all the normal things happen in terms of feelings and hormones :). Obviously not every person they meet will attractive. The other place to add that queer feeling is they’ll be looking for people like themselves and wondering if they’re normal. Especially in a very prejudiced society. As a queer person, I was always looking for some sign that what I felt was normal, that other people like me existed. And also trying to suppress my attraction to girls. It’s an exhausting way to live, and it should reflect in their world view. If you’re writing trans or non binary or so on, chat to people who identify as those and ask them what it was like growing up. Their experience of queer is different from mine, so better that they speak for themselves.
@@TheMichaellathrop (sorry for the long delay, timezones). So, I approach it as if it was a plot twist and give the reader at least a few sign post. You might have the character react awkwardly in a situation where someone of the opposite gender flirts with them. Or you might have them speak in defense of someone who is the subject of rumor about being "those people". Or you might the character actually be the subject of rumor. Or the character might speak of a friend in a way that is very reminiscent of the way people speak of a significant other. And then of course there is your point of view character who can have moments of thinking "this is weird" and thus highlight to the reader what you're communicating.
Thank you both for this. Actionable suggestions are always a good to have, especially from folks who have been there and done that. I'd wondered if Afghanistan's lost girls had inspired Starless. MM, I am shocked by your experience of fiction in the '80s. My recollection of '80s scifi/fantasy is ruled by authors like Anne McCaffery, Robin McKinley, Barbara Hambly, Mercedes Lackey, Elizabeth Moon, and Marion Zimmer Bradley (yes, I know, *wince,* but Lythande was certainly queer). But then, I was in the US, and that might have made a big difference. The SF/F sections of B. Dalton and Waldenbooks were quite large in those days.
Yeah, South Africa in the '80s was ... well. It was. Not much more one can say. Unless you were white, straight and Christian, it wasn't a fun time and the government exercised a lot of weird censorship. Some books and songs and so on were outright banned, some were just really hard to get hold of or forbidden in public libraries. And I grew up in a smallish town just to add the cherry on top. And then afterward, in the '90s, books finally started making their way south, but fantasy was of course low on the priority list for the public libraries which is where I found my books. I first encountered Mercedes Lackey in 2008 I think. I actually never read MZB. Anne McCaffery I did find in the '80s. Anne McCaffery and Katherine Kerr were my two female authors. The rest were all male: Eddings (like MZB wince), Feist, Herbert, Asimov, Tolkien, Terry Brooks, Douglass Hill, Douglass Adams, and probably a whole ream I'm forgetting now.
@@JustInTimeWorlds love Katherine Kerr. I discovered her from her historical articles in DRAGON magazine at the time, and only didn't mention her because most of what I read at the time where her Deryni novels which were fairly sausage-fest-y. ;D There's a joke (with more than a kernel of truth to it) that most of us Gen-Xers (especially the female ones) learned about homosexuality from reading Mercedes Lackey, and polyamory from reading Heinlein. ;p
Not exactly a book, but The Magnus Archives features amazing asexual gay couple (okay, I guess, one of them is biromantic asexual, but they are still so lovely), though it's pretty slowburn
16:15 … They were just (fill in innocent & amicable reason they know each other that well).😂 OhMyGodzilla… Being a Sailor Moon fan in the 90s was wild, I clearly remember that episode the Execs/Producers tried to pass off a pair of Lesbians as “COUSINS.” Good grief, I wasn’t even 10 & was like, “no, they’re a couple.” 💀 In all honesty, I’m really glad I had Sailor Moon as a base to grow from on my Anime & Manga journey. I’ve met many LGBTQIA+ people within the fandom who felt seen, if not resonated with the themes & messages it offered. It’s also allowed me to explore my identity. Ironically, Queerness has been in Anime & Manga almost since its inception. Upon rewatching certain iconic shows, I sometimes question if anyone was straight. Examples: Sailor Moon, Rose of Versailles, a number of Magical Girl series with a high percentage of fans being CIS/HET men (my doods, calm down; they likely wouldn’t be interested in you), etc. 😂 Oh, quick shout out of a Queer inclusive TH-cam Author, C.M. Alongi, who’s very enjoyable YT Short/TickTok Compilation series CaFae Latte gained so much popularity that it inspired a soon to be published novel, Heart of Iron. She recently went over how to write diverse characters too.💖 Thank you so much for taking the time & creating this video together. I really appreciate it. Especially since I want to include as many minority people I’m able in my future creative projects.🙏
Thanks for this video. I’m a straight person with a queer main character in my fantasy novel. I decided to treat queer and non-binary people as if it’s a completely normal thing, at least in the culture my main character is in. I wanted to explore a gay King Arthur/Lancelot story and it grew from there. My only trouble with a non-binary characters is getting used to using non-gendered pronouns without confiding people!
Great video! I DO have a question, tho. You talked about no retconing, which I agree with, but here's the problem I have: In my story, there are many different cultures, some more accepting of queer people than others. Now, one of the main characters that lives in a very queerphobic society thinks that he's straight, but is actually bi (compulsory heterosexuality). At some point in the story, he runs away for unrelated reasons and makes his way to a society where bi/pansexuality is the norm. There, he becomes aware of his sexuality. How can I write something like that without making it seem like a retcon?
So, what I'd suggest is while the character is the queerphobic society, have him briefly be attracted to a man but repress it. Just once maybe, have him think: Nah, we're just friends. I must have been thinking about his sister. That kind of later exploration of sexuality can make for a great story, all you need is just a small hint to the reader that our boy is not as straight as he wants to be.
I believe that NCIS handled the death of a gay character quite well. They went to the vibe "This a George R.R. Martin show and anybody can die". When Gibbs goes to collect Donnergat's body he sees a line of those who had died while on duty, doing a honor guard/ And they DO kill established characters often enough...
The problem isn’t so much the deaths, it’s that after the deaths, there are no queer people left in the show. It’s the proportion of it. (And also there is so much bury your gays across all shows that sometimes it feels like it’s just queer bodies hitting the floor. And I know it’s not that bad, but it certainly is common).
I guess the Anita Blake series has the opposite of the "queer all along" in a way with the "oops. I forgot they were queer" of having a lesbian character announce that "she doesn't do women".
Thanks for a very useful discussion! Have just realised I was setting up a Queer Character in a (mostly) closetted setting to be a big villain. Have stepped back from that, thankfully I had othe roptions who make as much sense for that reveal.
Thank you for listening to us :). Just to be clear, you can use a queer character as a villain, but please don't make them your only queer. It's like the bury your gays. It's about ratios and perspectives :)
@@JustInTimeWorlds Completely with you on that, I just realised that the likely story would reveal his sexuality and villiany at the same time, which would probably be a bad look.
Thanks, this was great! Hopefully this will help others not blunder into thoughtless treatment. I know it might have saved me some inital blundering several years ago 😅
15:30 "You're the only gay eskimo in your tribe" Maybe refrain from the word "eskimo"? It is not how people call themselves, it is how they're called by colonizers using the wrong language and a racist stereotype. The word does not come from inuit language, and it means "raw meat eater" and was created specifically to highlight the "savagery" of the natives.
It's a song from the eighties, one that helped me laugh at my own life and find humor instead of sadness. If I was referring to the various tribes who live in the far north of America, I would use their names.
3:00 It's okay if he dies and we're left with no queers. The only question is how well that death will be executed. And the problem with these deaths is precisely that they are executed poorly, that the character is created solely to die and it feels that way. The characters are flat, not interesting, they have no purpose, no motivation, etc. Are you sure what you're talking about isn't something based on experience from 10-15 years ago? People are now tired of plot armor for some categories/prosections of the population for political reasons. That cliché is just as annoying now as killing them in the first scene. It's wrong to look at representation based on one book/movie/series. One may have no queers at all, another may have more queers than is usually statistically possible. One may have everyone evil, another may have everyone good. You have to look at least at the author's entire artwork or even genre. “Not a single thing has ever been mended By you standing there and saying you're offended” 5:45 Why can't he be queer? There are bad people and good people in the world, some of the bad people can be queer. If there is nothing homobobic about the theme of the artwork, then there is nothing wrong with it. I could ask the opposite question. If you're making a villain of ordinary orientation? Why? What are you trying to say with that? Nothing. Just whoever you choose don't make the character flat. 14:10 And this is really weird, by the way. Let's say I like women. So why would I write about men and explore their inner world? I'm not interested in men's inner world. And the inner world of a gay man is more interesting to me than the inner world of the straight man. If you're an average median male you'll empathize a little more with a woman, and I really hope a woman empathizes a little more with a man..... because I hope somebody cares about them. That's the reason why my characters in video games are always women. They are not me, and I am just a person trying to help them reach their dreams, reach their goals. The easiest way to “kill” a character is to sexualize him/her in the very first scenes. And I'm very saddened by the trend in recent years to cram in nudity just for the sake of shock content. It was the same in the 90s, when everyone wanted to make a movie with nudity. I like women and really like guitars. One day I came across a picture of a stunning totally naked girl in a provocative pose, holding the very guitar I was dreaming of. Ideally I should have felt a double pleasure, but in fact I experienced negative emotions. The woman distracted me from the guitar, the guitar distracted me from the woman. I think the sex scene has to be earned, has to be a catharsis in the love line. You can't just use it as part of the gray of everyday life. It can happen in the background, i.e. to show the world, but the main character should not be affected by it.
I recently encountered, for the first time, an asexual main character in a novel. The character Anika from Surviving Daybreak and Daybreak Sentinel by Kendra Merritt is an ace woman who became a colonist on a exoplanet. The trouble with this is that the colony wanted only heterosexuals for their first couple waves of colonists so they could ensure sufficient population growth. Anika had to hide her orientation to get into the colonist program, and once she was on the new world, her orientation was a minor issue. The author still handled it with respect.
I'll add it to my TBR
So wait, a group wants to accomplish something with specific parameters so they select a specific set of ppl and someone who inhibits that project comes on and nothing comes of it?
Sounds lame to me.
@@melancholyman369 They were recruiting heterosexuals because they wanted there to be a lot of children. Thing is, being ace doesn't mean you don't want children, any more than being gay means you don't want or can't have children. Plenty of ace people end up having kids. Anika was willing to have kids for the sake of the colony. But she also became uniquely important to the colony's survival in other ways. The book makes it clear that the strategy of only recruiting heterosexuals was unnecessary, and that if Anika hadn't lied on her application to get to the colony anyway, there would be no living humans on the new colony world within just a few months of arrival.
@@kiwilemontea4622 you might like The Deed of Paksenarrion and Clariel, both have asexual main characters
So as a straight guy what advice would you give for believably portraying queer characters in society that's going to mean that they are predominately closeted? IE how do set up "they were queer all along" and have all your queer readers go no shit?
So my advice would be to have them notice their sexual preferred people the same way straight characters do. Think about the way you reacted to girls vs guys, especially in the beginning of puberty, then flip that on its head. That would be my advice for bi (pan), lesbian or gay. In prose, a straight guy looking at a woman he’s attracted to should be obvious right? With the word choices and emotional reactions.
Same for queer attraction. Like if I see a girl I find attractive, all the normal things happen in terms of feelings and hormones :).
Obviously not every person they meet will attractive. The other place to add that queer feeling is they’ll be looking for people like themselves and wondering if they’re normal. Especially in a very prejudiced society. As a queer person, I was always looking for some sign that what I felt was normal, that other people like me existed. And also trying to suppress my attraction to girls. It’s an exhausting way to live, and it should reflect in their world view.
If you’re writing trans or non binary or so on, chat to people who identify as those and ask them what it was like growing up. Their experience of queer is different from mine, so better that they speak for themselves.
@@JustInTimeWorlds what about for non viewpoint characters where the viewpoint characters don't notice.
@@TheMichaellathrop (sorry for the long delay, timezones). So, I approach it as if it was a plot twist and give the reader at least a few sign post. You might have the character react awkwardly in a situation where someone of the opposite gender flirts with them. Or you might have them speak in defense of someone who is the subject of rumor about being "those people". Or you might the character actually be the subject of rumor. Or the character might speak of a friend in a way that is very reminiscent of the way people speak of a significant other.
And then of course there is your point of view character who can have moments of thinking "this is weird" and thus highlight to the reader what you're communicating.
Thank you both for this. Actionable suggestions are always a good to have, especially from folks who have been there and done that. I'd wondered if Afghanistan's lost girls had inspired Starless.
MM, I am shocked by your experience of fiction in the '80s. My recollection of '80s scifi/fantasy is ruled by authors like Anne McCaffery, Robin McKinley, Barbara Hambly, Mercedes Lackey, Elizabeth Moon, and Marion Zimmer Bradley (yes, I know, *wince,* but Lythande was certainly queer). But then, I was in the US, and that might have made a big difference. The SF/F sections of B. Dalton and Waldenbooks were quite large in those days.
Yeah, South Africa in the '80s was ... well. It was. Not much more one can say. Unless you were white, straight and Christian, it wasn't a fun time and the government exercised a lot of weird censorship. Some books and songs and so on were outright banned, some were just really hard to get hold of or forbidden in public libraries. And I grew up in a smallish town just to add the cherry on top.
And then afterward, in the '90s, books finally started making their way south, but fantasy was of course low on the priority list for the public libraries which is where I found my books.
I first encountered Mercedes Lackey in 2008 I think. I actually never read MZB. Anne McCaffery I did find in the '80s. Anne McCaffery and Katherine Kerr were my two female authors. The rest were all male: Eddings (like MZB wince), Feist, Herbert, Asimov, Tolkien, Terry Brooks, Douglass Hill, Douglass Adams, and probably a whole ream I'm forgetting now.
@@JustInTimeWorlds love Katherine Kerr. I discovered her from her historical articles in DRAGON magazine at the time, and only didn't mention her because most of what I read at the time where her Deryni novels which were fairly sausage-fest-y. ;D
There's a joke (with more than a kernel of truth to it) that most of us Gen-Xers (especially the female ones) learned about homosexuality from reading Mercedes Lackey, and polyamory from reading Heinlein. ;p
@@trollsmyth I read all of Katherine Kerr’s Deverry novels with Jill. Jill was my hero
Love this!!! Thank you sm, your videos bring me sanity in this wild world. Much love 💓
Not exactly a book, but The Magnus Archives features amazing asexual gay couple (okay, I guess, one of them is biromantic asexual, but they are still so lovely), though it's pretty slowburn
16:15 … They were just (fill in innocent & amicable reason they know each other that well).😂
OhMyGodzilla… Being a Sailor Moon fan in the 90s was wild, I clearly remember that episode the Execs/Producers tried to pass off a pair of Lesbians as “COUSINS.” Good grief, I wasn’t even 10 & was like, “no, they’re a couple.” 💀
In all honesty, I’m really glad I had Sailor Moon as a base to grow from on my Anime & Manga journey. I’ve met many LGBTQIA+ people within the fandom who felt seen, if not resonated with the themes & messages it offered. It’s also allowed me to explore my identity. Ironically, Queerness has been in Anime & Manga almost since its inception. Upon rewatching certain iconic shows, I sometimes question if anyone was straight. Examples: Sailor Moon, Rose of Versailles, a number of Magical Girl series with a high percentage of fans being CIS/HET men (my doods, calm down; they likely wouldn’t be interested in you), etc. 😂
Oh, quick shout out of a Queer inclusive TH-cam Author, C.M. Alongi, who’s very enjoyable YT Short/TickTok Compilation series CaFae Latte gained so much popularity that it inspired a soon to be published novel, Heart of Iron. She recently went over how to write diverse characters too.💖
Thank you so much for taking the time & creating this video together. I really appreciate it. Especially since I want to include as many minority people I’m able in my future creative projects.🙏
I had the biggest crush on Sailor Mars and Sailor Uranus as a baby bi 🙈💜
Thanks for this video. I’m a straight person with a queer main character in my fantasy novel. I decided to treat queer and non-binary people as if it’s a completely normal thing, at least in the culture my main character is in. I wanted to explore a gay King Arthur/Lancelot story and it grew from there.
My only trouble with a non-binary characters is getting used to using non-gendered pronouns without confiding people!
Thank you for just making us a normal part of your culture :)
Great video! I DO have a question, tho. You talked about no retconing, which I agree with, but here's the problem I have:
In my story, there are many different cultures, some more accepting of queer people than others. Now, one of the main characters that lives in a very queerphobic society thinks that he's straight, but is actually bi (compulsory heterosexuality). At some point in the story, he runs away for unrelated reasons and makes his way to a society where bi/pansexuality is the norm. There, he becomes aware of his sexuality.
How can I write something like that without making it seem like a retcon?
So, what I'd suggest is while the character is the queerphobic society, have him briefly be attracted to a man but repress it. Just once maybe, have him think: Nah, we're just friends. I must have been thinking about his sister.
That kind of later exploration of sexuality can make for a great story, all you need is just a small hint to the reader that our boy is not as straight as he wants to be.
@@JustInTimeWorlds Thank you! Your answer helped me alot
"50 Shades of Bullsh**" would be a better title.
That series *shakes head*. I can something to like in most content, but that shyte...
I believe that NCIS handled the death of a gay character quite well. They went to the vibe "This a George R.R. Martin show and anybody can die". When Gibbs goes to collect Donnergat's body he sees a line of those who had died while on duty, doing a honor guard/
And they DO kill established characters often enough...
The problem isn’t so much the deaths, it’s that after the deaths, there are no queer people left in the show. It’s the proportion of it. (And also there is so much bury your gays across all shows that sometimes it feels like it’s just queer bodies hitting the floor. And I know it’s not that bad, but it certainly is common).
I guess the Anita Blake series has the opposite of the "queer all along" in a way with the "oops. I forgot they were queer" of having a lesbian character announce that "she doesn't do women".
There’s some very weird inconsistencies there 😂
So cool. Thank you for this video 💗
Thanks for a very useful discussion! Have just realised I was setting up a Queer Character in a (mostly) closetted setting to be a big villain. Have stepped back from that, thankfully I had othe roptions who make as much sense for that reveal.
Thank you for listening to us :). Just to be clear, you can use a queer character as a villain, but please don't make them your only queer. It's like the bury your gays. It's about ratios and perspectives :)
@@JustInTimeWorlds Completely with you on that, I just realised that the likely story would reveal his sexuality and villiany at the same time, which would probably be a bad look.
😱😱😱😱 amazing guest!! ❤
She is my favorite author in all the world. I find it very hard not to fan girl like teenager when I get to interview her. :)
@@JustInTimeWorlds you are living the dream!! Thank you so much for sharing this amazing interview.
Thanks, this was great! Hopefully this will help others not blunder into thoughtless treatment. I know it might have saved me some inital blundering several years ago 😅
Thanks for listening :)
Awesome vid 👍🏾
a good video.
15:30 "You're the only gay eskimo in your tribe"
Maybe refrain from the word "eskimo"? It is not how people call themselves, it is how they're called by colonizers using the wrong language and a racist stereotype. The word does not come from inuit language, and it means "raw meat eater" and was created specifically to highlight the "savagery" of the natives.
It's a song from the eighties, one that helped me laugh at my own life and find humor instead of sadness. If I was referring to the various tribes who live in the far north of America, I would use their names.
Yeah, using that kind of language is not nice even if in reference to other people being bigots
Geezz guys, it's a saying, not a endorsement. No need to get all bristled over it, especially considering that we all got what she meant.
3:00 It's okay if he dies and we're left with no queers. The only question is how well that death will be executed. And the problem with these deaths is precisely that they are executed poorly, that the character is created solely to die and it feels that way. The characters are flat, not interesting, they have no purpose, no motivation, etc. Are you sure what you're talking about isn't something based on experience from 10-15 years ago? People are now tired of plot armor for some categories/prosections of the population for political reasons. That cliché is just as annoying now as killing them in the first scene.
It's wrong to look at representation based on one book/movie/series. One may have no queers at all, another may have more queers than is usually statistically possible. One may have everyone evil, another may have everyone good. You have to look at least at the author's entire artwork or even genre.
“Not a single thing has ever been mended
By you standing there and saying you're offended”
5:45 Why can't he be queer? There are bad people and good people in the world, some of the bad people can be queer. If there is nothing homobobic about the theme of the artwork, then there is nothing wrong with it.
I could ask the opposite question. If you're making a villain of ordinary orientation? Why? What are you trying to say with that? Nothing. Just whoever you choose don't make the character flat.
14:10 And this is really weird, by the way. Let's say I like women. So why would I write about men and explore their inner world? I'm not interested in men's inner world. And the inner world of a gay man is more interesting to me than the inner world of the straight man.
If you're an average median male you'll empathize a little more with a woman, and I really hope a woman empathizes a little more with a man..... because I hope somebody cares about them.
That's the reason why my characters in video games are always women. They are not me, and I am just a person trying to help them reach their dreams, reach their goals.
The easiest way to “kill” a character is to sexualize him/her in the very first scenes. And I'm very saddened by the trend in recent years to cram in nudity just for the sake of shock content. It was the same in the 90s, when everyone wanted to make a movie with nudity.
I like women and really like guitars. One day I came across a picture of a stunning totally naked girl in a provocative pose, holding the very guitar I was dreaming of. Ideally I should have felt a double pleasure, but in fact I experienced negative emotions. The woman distracted me from the guitar, the guitar distracted me from the woman.
I think the sex scene has to be earned, has to be a catharsis in the love line. You can't just use it as part of the gray of everyday life. It can happen in the background, i.e. to show the world, but the main character should not be affected by it.