Love your take on this issue. I got into hema specificly to use tools more like the real objects and always fear the community will turn HEMA into modern sports fencing all over again. (Yes, I have trained in sport fencing before HEMA)
@@coltenlester9426 Why do you say that? I have been to places that moved in that direction but have yet to see it happen uniformly across the community. I still used blunts and realistically weighted and balanced training tools for both training and competition.
@@coltenlester9426 I see what your saying, I do agree with that statement for some traditions but I also see sources that do little to no direct grappling. I would agree you can't really do Fiore without grappling for example but also there are other systems that don't address it. What sources do you favor? My goal isn't simply to fight but to work the systems found in the sources.
Having witnessed some of this drama firsthand, I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. If the first casualty of war is the truth, then the first casualty of internet bickering is nuance. I would also add that as a professional in archaeology and history, I can attest to the fact that people in the past were not stupid. If there was only one obviously superior way of swordfighting (i.e. modern sport fencing), then everyone in the past - across all spans of time and cultural divides - would have been doing it that way. They would have figured it out. It's not as though human swordfighting skills have been improving through the centuries inevitably to arrive at the point they are at today. Evolution means simply 'change', and not, as many people erroneously believe, 'progress'. There are different swordfighting 'ecosystems', and different systems of fighting (including the variety of weapon-types, techniques, footwork, etc. etc.) all had a context in which they made sense. And when they stopped making sense, people adjusted their approaches. By necessity, innovation has always occurred quickest in the shadow of war.
My son wanted to learn after watching a video on the Landskneckts. So we got a copy of Meyer watched some more videos and I spent a bit of money on a pair of LARP swords for $40 each and some paintball masks. It’s been great fun! Low entry cost and we are moving in the ways described in the Treatise. However, we have also had several discussions about the way the weapons behave compared to steel, sharpened steel, etc. We’ve never been to a tournament, but we do other martial arts and it would make sense to have multiple divisions for light, medium and heavy weapons. We’re basically all playing aggressive tag with batons.
My personal opinion is that you want to use a training weapon that is as close as possible to the actual weapon used in your system. Change up the rules in your competitions to keep individuals from training to a specific ruleset and turning HEMA into another version of Olympic fencing.
Re: larp swords--you'd be surprised how good some of them are getting at mimicking real swords in terms of weight and balance! I've got a few that I really like, and when I handle a proper steel HEMA feder, the weights aren't exact but very close, same with the balance! Obviously steel is better, but if all you have access to in your local scene is larp, it's not a horrible idea to get certain brands of larp weapons (especially from Europe) and swing it around your bedroom or something.
I really think people outside of a fairly small European / UK LARP community are unaware of the advances made in foam/carbon fibre* weapon simulation. Also, how much effort some people put into either the sport or the simulation. Hopefully those aspects will grow.
@@TheHorzaborahere in the States, most of the carbon-fiber/foam advancements are being used to make boffer swords as light and durable as possible. There are some one off Amtgard "short" swords (36 inch) close to breaking the 5 oz (142 gram) floor and some small companies making 6.5 - 7 oz production boffers.
You are not wrong about the devolving into epee style fencing, but I’m sure making that statement is going to haunt me somehow. It is funny, I got labeled as one of the complainers, but I have been saying the same thing as you. My take is, no thank you, but if you like it and it helps you reach your HEMA goals, go for it. We should all be free to experience HEMA in the way we choose. My mistake was that I tried to articulate why I was not interested and all hell broke loose. My character, skill set, and lived experience were attacked by some big names in the HEMA community, people who I thought would never do that. All because I stated a personal experience and preference. What a hot mess. Thanks for the post.
I think a possible solution if this divide continues to widen is to have "light sword" , "heavy sword", and "open sword" categories at tournaments. Light for those who need or prefer light vs light, heavy for those who want to not have the speed disadvantage against light, and open for those who want to spar in mixed company. And people can compete in all three if they want with different weapons. This wouldn't really be viable for multi-weapon tournaments due to the number of events. However, for tournaments that are mainly one weapon or even just limiting it for longsword should be fine. I run into a similar issue with rapier though. There's an assumption that rapiers will be lighter and longer blades, and so practitioners can just wear much lighter protection. However, I do Destreza and Bolognese fencing, and in both I want a shorter cut-and-thrust blade with more presence in the bind. I usually spar with a Castille Armory rapier, which is very light, but then some people give me flak saying "well on a blade like that your cuts shouldn't count". But if I move to a Darkwood Destreza Blade, which is essentially a "sidesword" blade, that requires heavier hand protection than most have for rapier. This is especially an issue for rapier because of the finger placement. If you have a solid guard you're mostly fine, but your wrists can still get hit really hard.
I would like to note here about a safety issue, which's not about weight, I know it's not about the video but the usage mentality. Thank you for the video. We are getting a lot of protection we start to feel like invulnerable, hits getting heavier and heavier. And I really don't want to experience getting hit by even heavier swords(feder). I've seen a guy made himself 106 kg muscle-cannonball and throw himself to the other guy with his sword forward. I've seen a feder actually pierce through a minor gap between the scales of a HEMA glove because of the force behind the stab is over-powered rather than making a touché. (I won't mention the glove brand, but sturdy one). In my opinion all these type of injuries comes from ''It's not a lightsaber'' mentality. Because people think that they won't get the score if they don't hit hard enough. Because the opponent may say ''It's not a lightsaber, it does not count''. I say winning or losing a spar doesn't worth serious injuries and big hospital bills.
I posted this on one of the Fb comments on this. - Not entirely sure what the drama is, but I do keep asking this question in terms of feders: To preface, I posted in another similar thread, from my experience handling many original swords, feders do not generally handle with the same properties as original swords. Feders today are mainly made with modern methods and typically with very little to no distal taper as just an example. And that makes sense to keep the costs down and have products available. Original blades (including original feders) were not thin down at the blade base compared to many modern feders. And they were stiffer in the forte compared to the foible, instead of evenly flexing along the whole length. Not to mention, actual longsword historical lengths average far shorter than modern feders. Rotational and dynamics nodes are very different than feders, etc. My general question is: at what point are feders too far removed from historical long swords? At what point do they become the modern foil of longsword. Everyone may have a different view on that. But as long as we keep that in mind when practicing, we should be good.
I apreciate that you get across that there is a degree of both choice AND reason for particular blade types. Often people just rely on one or the other, “its just your opinion” vs “this is right”, when really its a bit of both. neither purely subjective or objective. there are different reasons to use different weights but that doesnt mean just use any for no reason, what you are doing should inform your choice, just as recognizing there is a degree of variance within those choices. there should be weight limits within competitions, but also not a singular weight. and some practice methods may prefer lighter or heavier blades, but you should be aware that that will have consequences in how people fight.
Re fencing with large two handed swords, I always remember my father coming out into the garden one day to find me and my brother fighting with iron fence posts which were about the same size as we were, we did have a rule that the idea was to knock the 'sword' out of the others hands, not clobber each other.
Consider that the center of mass of a sword is much closer to the hand(s) than with a rod without distal taper and a point at the end and a sword has a guard that gives you a better hold on the weapon so it will be harder to knock the sword out of the hand of your opponent than a rod/ fencepost.
I agree to a large extend with the points that you made. However, my opinion is that one should focus more on the mental aspects of fencing rather than the actual weapon. The ability to transition between attack and defense fluently, using psychological tricks to provoke attacks and having a backup plan ready if your initial attack fails, are more decisive than the exact length and weight of the weapon that you are fighting with.
It does come down to "do what you want". Have requirements for acceptable feders at your tournament, and have a few loaners on hand for those whose feders don't meet specs. Done. The sword in question is 2.75 lbs, so it's not completely out of the range of historical weights anyway, it's just on the light side. I started HEMA in 2004 before modern feders (or any quality gear really) were really a widespread thing, and we were very conscious of NOT recreating sport fencing with longswords. If that's your jam, go for it. It ain't mine, and I've fought in a lot of tournaments. Our goal was to recreate the fighting systems from the treatises as best as we could, and that's still my goal today. For me, competitive fencing is a tool to help in learning swordsmanship, rather than swordsmanship being a tool to learn competitive fencing.
In training, 'more control for more risky weapons' is good. I'm all on board. Use what you use. Have that discussion with your people. It's when clubs and people from different places enter into mutual competition that the problem arises. Now we need to reach a common ground of what everyone is comfortable with. I don't want to spend a great deal of money to go somewhere for a good time, then have to fight someone who's using a stiff, heavy feder and assume they're just going to have control enough to keep me safe. I should be able to rely on everyone's good will, I'm not assuming anyone is out to hurt me, but different clubs have different level of assumed risk. I'd much rather go to a tournament knowing everyone has a standard level of gear they'll be required to use and wear. Then any issues with safety are behavioral. Not gear. Ive seen too many tournament injuries happen due to bad behavior mixed with heavy swords. It's not worth it.
there are some really good plastic plate armour variant out there, that are useable for sparring. If you dont trust your opponent in a tournament, i would wear those. Those are not heavy and offer good protection. (would get them for your arms and shoulders because you already use gloves)
@@intheshadows1623 hard protection is good for protecting joints and fingers, but no one is really complaining about primarily bruises. there's no world where getting hit in the head a bunch by current standard feders is good for you, TBIs, hits to the spine from people fucking up and exposing their back, and repeated subconcussive head impacts are the big concerns that a lighter training tool can _help_ with (doesn't mean the risk goes away completely)
I don´t get your statement with the getting it with feders... you have a good helmet or not, thats pretty simple. When your hema fencing masks are not suited for the task get other proper helmets that can fulfill the task. If you worry about your back, then wear a bike back protection. There is protective gear for most problems already. And it is not that you need to keep a historlical apperance anyways. I get hit in the helmet all the time with full force (as hard as they can hit) and I wear a MMA style helmet. There are some variant of those helmets with a full visor, that blocks stabs too @@zooml4959 So for me it seems you dont have proper protective gear rather than too heavy "swords"
@@intheshadows1623 Protective gear only protects to some degree. You can't beat bad behaviour with heavier protective gears. If someone wants to full force spar with you with a sledgehammer just say no. We have to admit that some people just want to prove themselves or hyped in the moment of selfexageration.
I come from full contact sparring sport and we hit each other as hard as we can. There it is your responsibility to protect yourself with the right equipment. This is high lvl mimimi here and you can use lighter and lighter trainers, but then call it advanced larp fight and not HEMA @@mertgemicioglu5346
the VB one you pulled out is the one i regularly train with. It is my first feder and i didn't really have much to compare to, so it came as a bit of a surprise when you said that it is heavy for feders.
Hi Matt, get well soon. what you said at the end is very true: think of the probable outcome rather than your what you want to achieve. what you descriped is called "gamification". people optimize by the rules rather than the intention. therefore the outcome may be vastly different from the intention (of the rules) Ciao
it would be interesting to make an comparation with the types of simulacra that have been used over time as training swords. As far as I know, sticks were basically used in Italian Renaissance sources (probably with guard).
I remember that my freinds and I were building life-sized swords out of LEGO bricks in our youth. These LEGO swords looked very similiar to a feder and were very robust. As far as I remember only a couple of long bricks and plates ever broke during our fights.
in my opinion use what makes you comfortable, as long as it doesn't hurt people. that being said there may be some problems when using a sword either too light or too heavy. too light and too flexible can give the user the false sense of security and tend to swing harder, thinking it won't hurt, completely defeating the point of a lighter sword. similarly for a heavier than it should be sword, it will require more power behind it to make it move, meaning you have to use more force and it becomes a bit uncontrollable. one of my fencing mates at my club has a heavier feder (even he complains about it) and he does need to put some power behind it. so much that if he misses, the thing often slams on the ground (but he's starting to get used to it and control it better). sometimes lighter and flexier does not mean safer (i got hit on the head with a plastic very light and flexible foil once when i wasn't wearing a mask, and it made bump the size of a ping pong ball, so i should know 😅). it will depend on the user and how aware they are of how much force the use
I like my swords to be somewhat on the lower end of historical swords weight for that particular type of sword, that way you make it as safe as possible while still being historical.
Hello Matt: in the Middle Ages, the Netherlands an a big part of what is today Belgium are not neighbours of the Holy Roman Empire, there are parts of the Holy Roman Empire....
For public record .This is my opinion (Thitiwut - Owner of Siamese Edge) so fingers cross: How many person have handle Sharp sword Replica , Newly Made Modern and Actual Sharp antique. As far as we have test between antique and modern made swords overall. Modern replica are close to antique balance and feeling but most newly made modern swords we would say are not as nimble and fast as antique that the modern made was design for/copy of the antique one. We find this a problem ourself as well when tackling the design of modern made replica to bring the best swords for training in modern time. So to compare sword in 1 design which are made for Blunt , Sharp , Feder each even based of same design , size and dimension. Will react differently due to dynamic of weight distribution change and tapering to fit the context of the design (Blunt trainer,Sharp , Feder). It's probably the same mindset with lighter Heavier sword everywhere in the world. For us maker our aim is to closely mimic the antique we're working on as close as possible in terms of handling characteristic. But sometime we adjust the grip size, blade length - handle length a bit to fit modern human needs and body built. For HEMA I don't think there any wrong as well. Mr. Fabian have a point about more flexible and lighter feder is safer and for instructor point it's wonderful. Imagine teaching 1-2 times a day 4 days a weeks with steel flying at you even with protective gears it's tiresome. And the ligher swords would also fit for newbie than we work them up to heavier sword or normal weight sword. If we want tournament to be more HEMA not sporty . Tournament can adjust by having flexibility test, weight limit and so on that closely limit the swords use that in a historical range or any range the organiser want them to be. On another note , we make Dha/Dhaab sword for sometime and been in Thaisword communities for over ten year. We still can't figure out how to make a safe steel trainer for Dha/Dhaab since these hit super hard and we can't find a self solution to its yet. That why we use Synthetic trainer for Dha/Dhaab not steel. To conclude, Like Mr.Easton said different tools for different purpose of use. We would add Please try to train with as many tools and variation as you can. It will make everyone a better fencer and you can learn from each tools. Cheer!
Hi Matt, I developed a light longsword using a rapier blade, mainly for health issues and especially for teaching, because if I teach a kind of sword, I'm going to be hit a lot by it. Surprisingly, many commented that it is the future and that it would be good for competition, but I was rather thinking to the teaching part.
I think it depends on the weapon. With a gladius (technically recon archaeology), one could get by with a heavier weapon because it was attested. With a sabre, you could pass off using one of the heaviest sabres for sport fencing to use for some of the lightest historical sabres (or just do singlestick). As for longswords, I find that A lighter "bastard sword" is what I want in part due to a desire to use it one-handed occasionally (like Fiore, Ledall, and Paulus Kal); lighter would also put the onus on the individual to train to be mechanically advantaged and/or stronger, but not too strong (for safety) in the bind.
Hang on, historical sabres got down to 500g including guard? That's the FIE limit for olympic sabres. Épées can get up to 700g but sabres and foils have a lighter limit.
speaking as modern fencing enthusiast (not necessarily fencer myself), in my concern, perhaps the question should be asked is not "is the sword too heavy?" but "is the protection adequate?". modern fencing uses very light weapon, capped at 0.5kg for foil and sabre and 0.75kg for epee, with flexible blade to absorb the penetrative force and reduce blade breaking frequency, yet the protective equipment is quite hefty because the standard is pretty high: if I remember correctly, fencing equipment must be able to absorb/endure 1600 N for bib, 2300 N for mask, and 800 N for anywhere else. even with such light sword, the protective gear is very adequate to prevent incident that involves excessive force, intentional or not (like blade breaking for example). for HEMA, I've seen that HEMA's equipment is not significantly heftier than modern fencing's equipment (if it's heftier at all), yet they are meant to endure strikes from significantly heavier swords (about 1.5 to 2 times heavier). so the question needed to be asked is: is the protection adequate to handle the force HEMA swords are able to deliver, intentional or not?
Putting the subject of rulesets & competitive advantages/disadvantages of one sword or the other to one side. Fencers should never rely on the properties of the Sword to be ensure they are hitting safely. While there is a tendency for heavier blades to hit harder (especially single handed blades) the single most important determinant of force is the person wielding it. As we aren't using clubs, I always try to remind myself that I'm only trying to strike with sufficient force to ensure a cut/thrust. With more force than that being bad for safety but also bad for technique, as anybody who's countered an opponent who over-swings can attest.
Is this the Spes Officer? If yes, how do you fit your Gorget under it? I am having a bit of trouble closing all the buttons, when i have a gorget under it
I own Feders from 1,35kg to 1,7kg. Flexibility varies as well, from 10kg Flex load to 15kg. Well, as long as no one comes around with a 2kg weighing, totally stiff, broad bladed beast of a Longsword during safety checks before Tournaments it should be no Problem to get almost every blade approved.😅
Absolutely agree on using multiple training tools to triangulate. And that some tools are better for the individual than others (height and length of weapon for example). The concern we really have is about a misrepresentation of what we are doing. If you are interested in hema and come to class to learn the traditions and methods of ancient masters really using those tools... and you walk into modern Olympic fencing with "long sword" but the school still brands itself as hema. Is that really the same thing anymore?
I love that you seem to believe that an excellently presented discussion from an expert in their field will take care of an online HEMA argument, you sweet Summer child.
My solution to all these "tempests in various teapots" is to live in an area where there is absolutely NO opportunity to learn and train. Makes everything utterly moot. So I want to learn but am free of all the piles of bovine output that inevitably arise from group activities. Some people want to have fun; some want to spread fertilizer. Thanks, Matt.
There is an antique feder hanging in Arundel Castle in Sussex. I'm not saying that's proof that feder were used for practice in England but it does at least raise the possibility that there was more than one way.
personally i like using my blunt sword, it is relatively short (120cm) and at 1.5kg but it is a little front heavy (not unreasonably so) which makes it a bit slow in handling, i also typically use a heavy armour (cuirassiers armour, soon a maximilian armour) when sparring, even when doing bloss, this makes me quite slow in my movements but i think it’s fun (which is why i do hema in the first place). my opponents are usually in normal hema gear which is considerably lighter than my armour and ghey are using feders which are lighter and longer than my sword, but i have to manage and learn how to fight with these self imposed disadvantages which i find quite fun. sometimes however i like putting on a lighter configuration of armour (spaulders instead of pauldrons, no backplate, tassets that go half way down the thigh instead of all the way to the knee) and borrowing a feder, and damn, i notice a difference, a big one, i move faster, i reach further, and i tire out slower, it is such a big difference and it’s very fun, but i don’t think i would feel that way if i always used lighter gear and sword. it also takes my opponent by surprise as i’m usually slower. but yeah, i fully agree with you, people should use what they want, and is appropriate for what they are doing as long as it’s relatively safe. the important part is to have fun and thus use the equipment that you find fun to use
I assume that using lighter swords against heavier ones will cause durability issues. Speaking from experience in other sports I can also add that even if you regulate weight that's not really enough because for example we have weight regulations for shinai in kendo and most of us simply buy purpose made competition ones that bring the balance as far back as possible to the point where they have even been flirting with regulating a minimum thickness of the lats in the striking area cause it sometimes gets a bit ridiculous lol. I personally prefer not just lighter but somewhat shorter swords to be honest but a general implementation seems a bit impossible and would probably only start happening if hema became more mainstream and a more professional competition subsection emerged.
And those bokuto katas are 90% unrelated and not used in Kendo competition, since alot of the actions are not allowed in shiai (like that armlock in Kodachi kata for example). Not a good comparison.
I just started rapier. It seemed kind of heavy (my first time with a metal single-handed sword), but I figured I was just being a wuss who wasn't used to it, yet. Toward the end of class, one of the club members informed me that I picked up the heaviest rapier belonging to the club (I just grabbed the first one off the rack).
Just to point out the term Paratschwert seems to mean parade sword and was according to most sources used in that way. the federfechter also demanded that to be a master one must know all 7 knightly arms and the paratschwert. Some of the sources mention the paratschwert in the context of the fencing guild parading through the streets of the city. there the master or a talented fencer uses the paratschwert to either make fancy flowery movement and even jumps(something that joachim meyers seems to have dissaproven of) or to simply parade it. During parade they would often carry the sword upward with a wreath on the hilt. As far as i could find out none of the sources ever mention them being used in actual fencing rather some pictures seem to imply that they were kind of differently balanced/constructed. And they are often seperately mentioned to normal longswords. Probably the reason why the replica paratschwert you showed in this video is so differently balanced. it could have been so the flowery movement would work better. One sword i found interesting is the fencing sword from the Met Museum made by Diefstetter its weight seem to be rather that what i would imagine a fencing feder to be compared to the paratschwert weight. Didn't also Kvetun replicated an 18th century fencing sword that was super thin?
Parat is a German word. Parat meaning ready at hand, handy, prepared. That's actually a lot more logical, because the schilt protects the hands from injury. Parade in l German is... Well... Parade.
@@I_Willenbrock_I yes but the poems and descriptions are very clear on this. There are also pictures depicting such swords. the above mentioned federfechter mention that sword seperately from the longsword. And its not really logical since this sword is mentioned in the context of parades and sword dances. Parade not only means to parry but also to show off /display something meyer was against. They also would often use versetzen instead of parrying in this context. For example 1620 to honour the bohemian king they did a sword dance in munich in which three boys walked forward one with a paratschwert the other with a fencing sword and the last one with a tessack. So far no german source i have read or im aware of connects paratschwert with fencing. Theres also an interesting article on hroarr i'll quote from "Continuing, the paratschwert is also described, alongside of a fechtschwert in George Reutter’s & Nikolaus Pol’s chronicles about a schwerttanz performed by 36 furriers (likely Marxbrüder) in Breslau (Wroclaw) in 1620.
The "funny" thing is that we (at least in Italy) have already seen this. Before federschwert were popular someone here proposed to use essentially olimpic fencing tools, just repurposed to look more like medieval or reinassance swords. Guess what? Everyone that tried them ditched medieval and reinassance correct tecniques and used them like olimpic fencing tools, because that was what worked best with overly-light swords 😂 (most of the people that I'm aware of tought that was after all a bad idea)
The reason I want to get into HEMA is because it hasn't gone the way of Olympic fencing. It's rooted in the functional use of swords (etc) as tools, rather than as sports equipment.
Hey, never thought that, but hitting with the flat, I think, might be the way to go (obviously with the sword NOT being sharp in any way!) I already defend, primarily, with the *flat*, so differentuating, say, in real combat, never seems an issue.
Flatamuhstrong - silly, bad, ahistorical, a meme Flatamuhweak - big brain ultimate sparring technique of the old masters, historically accurate, true HEMA
@@caderly123 it's wild to think about just how out dated and irrelevant the controversy is, and yet the subject lives rent free in my head and pops up at random to remind me it's here. Truly a most insipid meme!
If we want our feder/sword to behave close to the originals but still want adequate safty we should limit the max length of feders i think. If we use long feders with sword like weight its too dangerouse. If we use long light feders it turns into sportfencing. I completely agree, at some point every serious competition fencer will use the longest lightest possible feder. Limiting the maximum length to something like 120 cm and setting a minimum weight to 1,2 kg would allow for sword like handling and good safety. Thats why the usual max feder length of 140 cm here in europe has me worried. Of course, everyone has the right to do as he pleases, but on the other hand i like having as many training partners doing similar things as i do.
Good perspective. If the swords are too light they abandon much of the historical intent of the weapon. But lighter versions are great for lots of reasons. I see an exciting future for both and I would definitely use light versions in class for training purposes. Too many guys like the big swords and want to "win" practice during drills with big swords. Lighter versions could be another tool to help break that if applied just so.
Hello, we have no HEMA sabre training in Prague, but there is a variety of modern sports sable fencing, please what would be the closest and easiest to adapt type of modern sabre fencing I should try to learn if I am interested in the full range of motions?
Great 'concise' video as always! I was wondering, wasn't it common for warriors, fencers in Fiore'ish, Meyer'ish times to train with 2-3x heavier swords than the ones used in real encounter/situation?
Heavier weapon training was mostly done as a strength-building exercise if you wanted something different from picking up and moving weights (like rocks) or doing exercises we’d now call calisthenics. This is evidenced in Indian club exercises and oversized examples of Chinese swords and staves and the like that survive today. Similar exercises are mentioned by Vegetius (writing in the era of the Romans) and may be depicted in a few examples of 15th-century artwork. Actually training against someone in Fiore’s time, we can’t be sure what they used due to how little people wrote down (this also counts as something most people living then assumed as common knowledge). The common modern assumption of blunt longsword shapes is something I wouldn’t argue against here, if they’re well-designed and considered safe enough by all involved. However - with Joachim Meyer, the illustrations in his treatises match quite well with a small handful of historical examples of surviving feders. All of them are quite handy weights, even the heaviest being under 1700 grams, and the average thereof about 1450 grams for an overall length of ≈130 cm. Each one is made with a longer handle than the typical Fiore-era longsword (or even typical bastard sword, as we label hand-and-a-half examples), which frees the wrists up for certain actions (and allows us as modern fencers to wear our sturdy protective gloves). I would actually very highly recommend Indian club exercises for shoulder health if you’re a historical fencer - Matt himself did a video on one routine that made its way to England via the period British influence in India. But they scale up to club weights (or modern steel mace-bell weights) that go way beyond any battlefield or courtly or street/everyday weapon, and because they’re different you don’t have to worry about confusing technical-tactical lessons with functional strength and injury-prevention exercises in ways that would make things unsafe for sword-friends.
@@jonharker9028 wow great essay! Thanks. As you mentioned steel maces and clubs are a great way to keep your shoulders in good health and swinging those around also simulates movement with a sword in certain stances.
They're called "schilt" and they keep the opponents sword farther away from your hands when their blade slides down to your cross guard, as well as having a large mass in front of the hands to make the sword handle more like a real sword. If the blade was just thin all the way from the guard it would be too light and balanced too far back.
An extended version of the video is available on Nebula. 😂 Anyway, I agree, but I think there should be different weight classes. Maybe there aren't enough people to have them but maybe that's because they don't wanna be hurt. Have a good recovery, Matt!
It does bother me a bit to see that the evolution of tournament feders is marching towards longer, thinner, lighter and more reward balanced swords. Seems like the obvious evolution is to make a 48"+ Epee that you are encouraged to hold in two hands.
If one is going to do longsword, it seems like a certain length and mass are part of the game. A lighter sword gives a competitive advantage, and could make injuries worse because the user can achieve much higher speed...
The Netherlands and Belgium where part of the holy Roman Empire, when Federschwerter were used ;) + The "e" at the end of Parade-Schwert needs to be pronounced, like also in Porsche
there is only one way this ends. that is how we got to Olympic sport fencing. The whole point of HEMA was to get back to "real" historical weapons and techniques. That being said there is no single "historical" sword. classes of weight and size makes sense, though the more classes, the fewer in each class... and pretty soon you are by yourself. But I chose longsword because I wanted longsword, not an Olympic epee! the point was historical accuracy. (if I want to actually defend myself I use a nice 20th century stand-off weapon. but that is a different thread)
Cool jacket, I was thinking if you wore it in battle and an arrow was being fired from afar maybe yhe line off centre would throw off a potential attack to one's side 😀
My personal preference would be "as like real weapons while safe as possible." But since we probably will never actually need these skills, people wanting more fun (up to and especially LARPing) have every right to that too.
Some fencers need to just admit that they're out of shape and need to start working out if they want to perform at a high or even average level. Is also good for your overall health in the long term.
Odd, innit, how the answer to so many things is "as long as you're not hurting anyone, you do you and I'll do me." Perhaps we should tell the politicians...
That wouldn't change much, like no politicians are running on a "it's not that big of a deal but we're going to deal with it anyways". What they say is that it's a crisis, it's threatening your way of life, if you don't vote for us you're putting your family at risk.
So I love my sporty feeling regenyei shorty, but Castille’s economy longsword Feder is stupidly light. That being said, I’ve seen at least one museum example that is only about 2 pounds.
I know this will be sacrilegious for some, but frankly the fact that the feder is shaped like that makes it, in my appreciation, more controversial for training (IF YOU'RE LOOKING TO SIMULATE A WEAPON OF WAR) than the weight of the sword. I know it gets appreciated because it's a historical tool for training, but then the question is wether you want to simulate a duel with weapons of war or if you want to _simulate a training simulation_ in the way that people in a certain historical context performed.
I suspect they're not arguing for the right to train with whatever sword they want, but to have the freedom to use them in tournaments, to ease the restrictions on what kind of longswords you can use. Personally I prefer very short longswords and thus the "standard" in tournaments is very clumsy and slow for me.
Is there a video where you describe, what we believe, was the original fighting style in armor? Modern fencing is all about speed. Was historic fencing in armor similar - so trying to get a quick peek into an unarmored part of the armor, or was it more of a brute force hacking and slaying to wear down the enemies armor and endurance?
For Christ sake, people should really need to stop thinking historical fencing is all about armoured combat. Modern HEMA mainly focused on combat WITHOUT any armour or partly armoured, which also happened alot in history
@jaketheasianguy3307 It is clear that there was a lot if fencing without armor. I am just interested if the fighting styles are similar or completely different...
@@BoeserWolf1977 Armoured longsword is very different to the standard longsword as practised in most clubs..... And yes, its mainly about either finding gaps in the harness or controlling your opponent in order to open gaps (using grapples and throws). Longswords are not good for breaking steel armour so you go around it.
Regarding the end result - epe with long swords... I this case I demand that the art in European martial art is being crossed out. I prefer the art aspect over the sport one. Bloßfechten with adjusted historical rules is so satisfying to watch.
I think we'll finally solve this question once and for all by arguing about it very loudly and angrily on the internet, it's not as if we have Roman sources showing has been a hotly debated point for at least the last three thousand years...
@@_tonypacheco It was Vegetius in De Re Militari that I was thinking of specifically, though I'm not a classicist so there may be others. He wrote in the 4th century so I may have exaggerated the timeline a little bit, but he refers to training methods used by what he considered "the ancients" throughout and advocates in several places for training weapons to be heavier than battlefield weapons, so it's evident even then that the debate had been going on for centuries already.
Don't have a dog in this fight but: Doesn't depend on your goal? Learning skills and practicing speed and flexibility or Understanding the kind of activity that our ancestors needed to survive their conbats.
I mean lighter weapons provide certain adventages, mainly in terms of speed and dexterity, they of course have less authority in a cut, but if you're using a roughly 1000g sword and your opponent roughly a 1400g sword, you will have a slight adventage in fencing, Of course your skill matters a lot more, but it is a competitive adventage, so I think that they should be banned in tournaments, or that tournaments should have a light division with lighter swords and less armor for those that prefer that, I just think that if you're there to participate in a test of skill it should be more about your skill than equipment, and the equipment should be as uniform as possible, if that equipment is light then its light for everyone, if it's heavy it's heavy for everyone
I'd rather use a blunt like those black fencer ones, no shilt, normal size and weight, something that i could wear every day and sheath/unsheath quickly in self defence, to me thats what a longsword should be, you can still have it on you "comfortably" all those long hilted and bladed feders are defeating the purpose of the longsword, if i wanted a big sword, i would skip these and go for the biggest i can handle..so a montante or a twohander and screw wearability. Its a sidearm first and foremost.
I was always taught to start with very light weapons until you learned the correct form and bio-mechanics, and then work up to heavier weapons when you know how to move without using the wrong muscle groups.
I've always been wary of this advice. For example if you give someone a very light sidesword to begin with, they will almost certainly start over extending their wrists in cuts (which is almost impossible to see happening, it's something you need to be aware of as a "feel"), and when they move to a heavier sword, will sprain their wrist immediately. I'm sure theirs some good way around at (eg being a better instructor capable of noticing and correcting it), but it seems to me easier to start with the correctly weighted tool... I am totally open to being wrong though
Historically, the rule of thumb has been the exact opposite. Starting with an intentionally heavier than standard weapon and then moving onto a weapon of normal weight has been a common practice since the Roman Empire.
My gut tells me train heavy & fight light. Romans trained with weighted wooden swords that were heavier than the military swords they would use in battle. Endurance is a factor, a thing you want to develop.
![เปิดบ้าน โคตรสวย ป๋องกพล รู้จักตั้งนาน เพิ่งรู้ว่ารวย!!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tmgCF_2HfYI/mqdefault.jpg)
I enjoy your appreciation of your...different understanding of "concise."
Under 20min is very concise for Matt
Under 10 probably warrants a welfare check. @@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis
Well, "concise" has to be understood in context.
For Captain Context, this WAS concise.
Operative word in Matt's statement was "relatively"
Love your take on this issue. I got into hema specificly to use tools more like the real objects and always fear the community will turn HEMA into modern sports fencing all over again. (Yes, I have trained in sport fencing before HEMA)
They already have.
@@coltenlester9426 Why do you say that? I have been to places that moved in that direction but have yet to see it happen uniformly across the community. I still used blunts and realistically weighted and balanced training tools for both training and competition.
@@littlestoneliontraditional9838 In my opinion if you take out grappling you get rid of the fight. Fencing is a sport.
@@coltenlester9426 I see what your saying, I do agree with that statement for some traditions but I also see sources that do little to no direct grappling. I would agree you can't really do Fiore without grappling for example but also there are other systems that don't address it. What sources do you favor?
My goal isn't simply to fight but to work the systems found in the sources.
@@coltenlester9426 I really enjoy grappling with a longsword in competition, super fun.
Having witnessed some of this drama firsthand, I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. If the first casualty of war is the truth, then the first casualty of internet bickering is nuance. I would also add that as a professional in archaeology and history, I can attest to the fact that people in the past were not stupid. If there was only one obviously superior way of swordfighting (i.e. modern sport fencing), then everyone in the past - across all spans of time and cultural divides - would have been doing it that way. They would have figured it out. It's not as though human swordfighting skills have been improving through the centuries inevitably to arrive at the point they are at today. Evolution means simply 'change', and not, as many people erroneously believe, 'progress'.
There are different swordfighting 'ecosystems', and different systems of fighting (including the variety of weapon-types, techniques, footwork, etc. etc.) all had a context in which they made sense. And when they stopped making sense, people adjusted their approaches. By necessity, innovation has always occurred quickest in the shadow of war.
A moment of panic as Matt does not assure me that he will continue to be Easton.
Soon he will be Weston.
Matt becomes a crucial ingredient in bread and beer: Yeaston.
He's visiting Scotland. Southron.
My son wanted to learn after watching a video on the Landskneckts. So we got a copy of Meyer watched some more videos and I spent a bit of money on a pair of LARP swords for $40 each and some paintball masks. It’s been great fun! Low entry cost and we are moving in the ways described in the Treatise. However, we have also had several discussions about the way the weapons behave compared to steel, sharpened steel, etc. We’ve never been to a tournament, but we do other martial arts and it would make sense to have multiple divisions for light, medium and heavy weapons. We’re basically all playing aggressive tag with batons.
My personal opinion is that you want to use a training weapon that is as close as possible to the actual weapon used in your system. Change up the rules in your competitions to keep individuals from training to a specific ruleset and turning HEMA into another version of Olympic fencing.
Re: larp swords--you'd be surprised how good some of them are getting at mimicking real swords in terms of weight and balance! I've got a few that I really like, and when I handle a proper steel HEMA feder, the weights aren't exact but very close, same with the balance! Obviously steel is better, but if all you have access to in your local scene is larp, it's not a horrible idea to get certain brands of larp weapons (especially from Europe) and swing it around your bedroom or something.
I really think people outside of a fairly small European / UK LARP community are unaware of the advances made in foam/carbon fibre* weapon simulation. Also, how much effort some people put into either the sport or the simulation. Hopefully those aspects will grow.
@@TheHorzaborahere in the States, most of the carbon-fiber/foam advancements are being used to make boffer swords as light and durable as possible. There are some one off Amtgard "short" swords (36 inch) close to breaking the 5 oz (142 gram) floor and some small companies making 6.5 - 7 oz production boffers.
@@TheHorzabora We use LARP swords extensively in Russia. For role-playing games mostly, but the role-playing community and hema overlap a lot.
You are not wrong about the devolving into epee style fencing, but I’m sure making that statement is going to haunt me somehow.
It is funny, I got labeled as one of the complainers, but I have been saying the same thing as you. My take is, no thank you, but if you like it and it helps you reach your HEMA goals, go for it. We should all be free to experience HEMA in the way we choose.
My mistake was that I tried to articulate why I was not interested and all hell broke loose. My character, skill set, and lived experience were attacked by some big names in the HEMA community, people who I thought would never do that. All because I stated a personal experience and preference.
What a hot mess.
Thanks for the post.
People need to calm the F down.
Yes everyone is an expert even though none of us were around back then.
I think a possible solution if this divide continues to widen is to have "light sword" , "heavy sword", and "open sword" categories at tournaments. Light for those who need or prefer light vs light, heavy for those who want to not have the speed disadvantage against light, and open for those who want to spar in mixed company. And people can compete in all three if they want with different weapons.
This wouldn't really be viable for multi-weapon tournaments due to the number of events. However, for tournaments that are mainly one weapon or even just limiting it for longsword should be fine.
I run into a similar issue with rapier though. There's an assumption that rapiers will be lighter and longer blades, and so practitioners can just wear much lighter protection. However, I do Destreza and Bolognese fencing, and in both I want a shorter cut-and-thrust blade with more presence in the bind. I usually spar with a Castille Armory rapier, which is very light, but then some people give me flak saying "well on a blade like that your cuts shouldn't count". But if I move to a Darkwood Destreza Blade, which is essentially a "sidesword" blade, that requires heavier hand protection than most have for rapier.
This is especially an issue for rapier because of the finger placement. If you have a solid guard you're mostly fine, but your wrists can still get hit really hard.
The issue here I think isn't light vs heavy weapons. The issue is that there isn't an affordable (ie
I did like the hema 4.0 meme with the pistol grip feder.... I wouldn't fight with it, but it tickled me.
I would like to note here about a safety issue, which's not about weight, I know it's not about the video but the usage mentality. Thank you for the video.
We are getting a lot of protection we start to feel like invulnerable, hits getting heavier and heavier. And I really don't want to experience getting hit by even heavier swords(feder). I've seen a guy made himself 106 kg muscle-cannonball and throw himself to the other guy with his sword forward. I've seen a feder actually pierce through a minor gap between the scales of a HEMA glove because of the force behind the stab is over-powered rather than making a touché. (I won't mention the glove brand, but sturdy one).
In my opinion all these type of injuries comes from ''It's not a lightsaber'' mentality. Because people think that they won't get the score if they don't hit hard enough. Because the opponent may say ''It's not a lightsaber, it does not count''. I say winning or losing a spar doesn't worth serious injuries and big hospital bills.
I posted this on one of the Fb comments on this. -
Not entirely sure what the drama is, but I do keep asking this question in terms of feders:
To preface, I posted in another similar thread, from my experience handling many original swords, feders do not generally handle with the same properties as original swords. Feders today are mainly made with modern methods and typically with very little to no distal taper as just an example. And that makes sense to keep the costs down and have products available. Original blades (including original feders) were not thin down at the blade base compared to many modern feders. And they were stiffer in the forte compared to the foible, instead of evenly flexing along the whole length. Not to mention, actual longsword historical lengths average far shorter than modern feders. Rotational and dynamics nodes are very different than feders, etc.
My general question is: at what point are feders too far removed from historical long swords? At what point do they become the modern foil of longsword. Everyone may have a different view on that. But as long as we keep that in mind when practicing, we should be good.
I apreciate that you get across that there is a degree of both choice AND reason for particular blade types.
Often people just rely on one or the other, “its just your opinion” vs “this is right”, when really its a bit of both. neither purely subjective or objective. there are different reasons to use different weights but that doesnt mean just use any for no reason, what you are doing should inform your choice, just as recognizing there is a degree of variance within those choices.
there should be weight limits within competitions, but also not a singular weight. and some practice methods may prefer lighter or heavier blades, but you should be aware that that will have consequences in how people fight.
Re fencing with large two handed swords, I always remember my father coming out into the garden one day to find me and my brother fighting with iron fence posts which were about the same size as we were, we did have a rule that the idea was to knock the 'sword' out of the others hands, not clobber each other.
Consider that the center of mass of a sword is much closer to the hand(s) than with a rod without distal taper and a point at the end and a sword has a guard that gives you a better hold on the weapon so it will be harder to knock the sword out of the hand of your opponent than a rod/ fencepost.
@@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis I think you're overthinking this, we just wanted something big and heavy to swing at each other.
your "lol" note was as much of a cue to laugh as it was a self-deprecating remark haha
As someone from the twohanded swords gang, I love big swords hitting like a truck. 😅
Well. you ARE wearing amour after all...
But do you want to get hit by such a sword?
thank you for your wise words in this discussion.
I agree to a large extend with the points that you made.
However, my opinion is that one should focus more on the mental aspects of fencing rather than the actual weapon.
The ability to transition between attack and defense fluently, using psychological tricks to provoke attacks and having a backup plan ready if your initial attack fails, are more decisive than the exact length and weight of the weapon that you are fighting with.
It does come down to "do what you want". Have requirements for acceptable feders at your tournament, and have a few loaners on hand for those whose feders don't meet specs. Done. The sword in question is 2.75 lbs, so it's not completely out of the range of historical weights anyway, it's just on the light side. I started HEMA in 2004 before modern feders (or any quality gear really) were really a widespread thing, and we were very conscious of NOT recreating sport fencing with longswords. If that's your jam, go for it. It ain't mine, and I've fought in a lot of tournaments. Our goal was to recreate the fighting systems from the treatises as best as we could, and that's still my goal today. For me, competitive fencing is a tool to help in learning swordsmanship, rather than swordsmanship being a tool to learn competitive fencing.
Good points. Maybe recommend an optimal feder for a given system? Meyer feder, fiorre feder etc
In training, 'more control for more risky weapons' is good. I'm all on board. Use what you use. Have that discussion with your people.
It's when clubs and people from different places enter into mutual competition that the problem arises. Now we need to reach a common ground of what everyone is comfortable with. I don't want to spend a great deal of money to go somewhere for a good time, then have to fight someone who's using a stiff, heavy feder and assume they're just going to have control enough to keep me safe. I should be able to rely on everyone's good will, I'm not assuming anyone is out to hurt me, but different clubs have different level of assumed risk. I'd much rather go to a tournament knowing everyone has a standard level of gear they'll be required to use and wear. Then any issues with safety are behavioral. Not gear. Ive seen too many tournament injuries happen due to bad behavior mixed with heavy swords. It's not worth it.
there are some really good plastic plate armour variant out there, that are useable for sparring. If you dont trust your opponent in a tournament, i would wear those. Those are not heavy and offer good protection. (would get them for your arms and shoulders because you already use gloves)
@@intheshadows1623 hard protection is good for protecting joints and fingers, but no one is really complaining about primarily bruises.
there's no world where getting hit in the head a bunch by current standard feders is good for you, TBIs, hits to the spine from people fucking up and exposing their back, and repeated subconcussive head impacts are the big concerns that a lighter training tool can _help_ with (doesn't mean the risk goes away completely)
I don´t get your statement with the getting it with feders... you have a good helmet or not, thats pretty simple. When your hema fencing masks are not suited for the task get other proper helmets that can fulfill the task. If you worry about your back, then wear a bike back protection. There is protective gear for most problems already. And it is not that you need to keep a historlical apperance anyways. I get hit in the helmet all the time with full force (as hard as they can hit) and I wear a MMA style helmet. There are some variant of those helmets with a full visor, that blocks stabs too
@@zooml4959
So for me it seems you dont have proper protective gear rather than too heavy "swords"
@@intheshadows1623 Protective gear only protects to some degree. You can't beat bad behaviour with heavier protective gears. If someone wants to full force spar with you with a sledgehammer just say no. We have to admit that some people just want to prove themselves or hyped in the moment of selfexageration.
I come from full contact sparring sport and we hit each other as hard as we can. There it is your responsibility to protect yourself with the right equipment. This is high lvl mimimi here and you can use lighter and lighter trainers, but then call it advanced larp fight and not HEMA
@@mertgemicioglu5346
It took almost two years, but I finally got my Easton Sabre! Worth the wait!
the VB one you pulled out is the one i regularly train with. It is my first feder and i didn't really have much to compare to, so it came as a bit of a surprise when you said that it is heavy for feders.
Im not a HEMA practitioner but it was great to be educated on the Fedder as i had always wondered about their origins and use 👍
Hi Matt, get well soon.
what you said at the end is very true: think of the probable outcome rather than your what you want to achieve.
what you descriped is called "gamification". people optimize by the rules rather than the intention. therefore the outcome may be vastly different from the intention (of the rules)
Ciao
it would be interesting to make an comparation with the types of simulacra that have been used over time as training swords. As far as I know, sticks were basically used in Italian Renaissance sources (probably with guard).
I remember that my freinds and I were building life-sized swords out of LEGO bricks in our youth. These LEGO swords looked very similiar to a feder and were very robust. As far as I remember only a couple of long bricks and plates ever broke during our fights.
in my opinion use what makes you comfortable, as long as it doesn't hurt people. that being said there may be some problems when using a sword either too light or too heavy. too light and too flexible can give the user the false sense of security and tend to swing harder, thinking it won't hurt, completely defeating the point of a lighter sword. similarly for a heavier than it should be sword, it will require more power behind it to make it move, meaning you have to use more force and it becomes a bit uncontrollable. one of my fencing mates at my club has a heavier feder (even he complains about it) and he does need to put some power behind it. so much that if he misses, the thing often slams on the ground (but he's starting to get used to it and control it better). sometimes lighter and flexier does not mean safer (i got hit on the head with a plastic very light and flexible foil once when i wasn't wearing a mask, and it made bump the size of a ping pong ball, so i should know 😅). it will depend on the user and how aware they are of how much force the use
That's really funny. Didn't watch the video, just the title got me smiling. Good one.
Nice expose, Matt, thank you.
Do you know where one could find a list of references for these fencing guild rules if they are available online or otherwise?
Following!
I like my swords to be somewhat on the lower end of historical swords weight for that particular type of sword, that way you make it as safe as possible while still being historical.
Hello Matt: in the Middle Ages, the Netherlands an a big part of what is today Belgium are not neighbours of the Holy Roman Empire, there are parts of the Holy Roman Empire....
Depending on the time of course. Also much of northern Italy was part of the Holy Roman Empire for a long time.
For public record .This is my opinion (Thitiwut - Owner of Siamese Edge) so fingers cross:
How many person have handle Sharp sword Replica , Newly Made Modern and Actual Sharp antique. As far as we have test between antique and modern made swords overall. Modern replica are close to antique balance and feeling but most newly made modern swords we would say are not as nimble and fast as antique that the modern made was design for/copy of the antique one. We find this a problem ourself as well when tackling the design of modern made replica to bring the best swords for training in modern time.
So to compare sword in 1 design which are made for Blunt , Sharp , Feder each even based of same design , size and dimension. Will react differently due to dynamic of weight distribution change and tapering to fit the context of the design (Blunt trainer,Sharp , Feder).
It's probably the same mindset with lighter Heavier sword everywhere in the world. For us maker our aim is to closely mimic the antique we're working on as close as possible in terms of handling characteristic. But sometime we adjust the grip size, blade length - handle length a bit to fit modern human needs and body built.
For HEMA I don't think there any wrong as well. Mr. Fabian have a point about more flexible and lighter feder is safer and for instructor point it's wonderful. Imagine teaching 1-2 times a day 4 days a weeks with steel flying at you even with protective gears it's tiresome. And the ligher swords would also fit for newbie than we work them up to heavier sword or normal weight sword.
If we want tournament to be more HEMA not sporty . Tournament can adjust by having flexibility test, weight limit and so on that closely limit the swords use that in a historical range or any range the organiser want them to be.
On another note , we make Dha/Dhaab sword for sometime and been in Thaisword communities for over ten year. We still can't figure out how to make a safe steel trainer for Dha/Dhaab since these hit super hard and we can't find a self solution to its yet.
That why we use Synthetic trainer for Dha/Dhaab not steel.
To conclude,
Like Mr.Easton said different tools for different purpose of use. We would add Please try to train with as many tools and variation as you can. It will make everyone a better fencer and you can learn from each tools.
Cheer!
Hi Matt, I developed a light longsword using a rapier blade, mainly for health issues and especially for teaching, because if I teach a kind of sword, I'm going to be hit a lot by it. Surprisingly, many commented that it is the future and that it would be good for competition, but I was rather thinking to the teaching part.
I think it depends on the weapon. With a gladius (technically recon archaeology), one could get by with a heavier weapon because it was attested. With a sabre, you could pass off using one of the heaviest sabres for sport fencing to use for some of the lightest historical sabres (or just do singlestick). As for longswords, I find that A lighter "bastard sword" is what I want in part due to a desire to use it one-handed occasionally (like Fiore, Ledall, and Paulus Kal); lighter would also put the onus on the individual to train to be mechanically advantaged and/or stronger, but not too strong (for safety) in the bind.
Hang on, historical sabres got down to 500g including guard? That's the FIE limit for olympic sabres. Épées can get up to 700g but sabres and foils have a lighter limit.
@@oliviaaaaaah1002 Yes, there are some Spanish military sabres as well as some dueling sabres.
I got the sneezs myself here in finland. well done, I try to balance things for damage system. not having success.
speaking as modern fencing enthusiast (not necessarily fencer myself), in my concern, perhaps the question should be asked is not "is the sword too heavy?" but "is the protection adequate?". modern fencing uses very light weapon, capped at 0.5kg for foil and sabre and 0.75kg for epee, with flexible blade to absorb the penetrative force and reduce blade breaking frequency, yet the protective equipment is quite hefty because the standard is pretty high: if I remember correctly, fencing equipment must be able to absorb/endure 1600 N for bib, 2300 N for mask, and 800 N for anywhere else. even with such light sword, the protective gear is very adequate to prevent incident that involves excessive force, intentional or not (like blade breaking for example).
for HEMA, I've seen that HEMA's equipment is not significantly heftier than modern fencing's equipment (if it's heftier at all), yet they are meant to endure strikes from significantly heavier swords (about 1.5 to 2 times heavier). so the question needed to be asked is: is the protection adequate to handle the force HEMA swords are able to deliver, intentional or not?
Putting the subject of rulesets & competitive advantages/disadvantages of one sword or the other to one side. Fencers should never rely on the properties of the Sword to be ensure they are hitting safely.
While there is a tendency for heavier blades to hit harder (especially single handed blades) the single most important determinant of force is the person wielding it.
As we aren't using clubs, I always try to remind myself that I'm only trying to strike with sufficient force to ensure a cut/thrust. With more force than that being bad for safety but also bad for technique, as anybody who's countered an opponent who over-swings can attest.
Is this the Spes Officer? If yes, how do you fit your Gorget under it? I am having a bit of trouble closing all the buttons, when i have a gorget under it
I have a spes officers jacket and I can't button up the top with most gorgets, it only really works with the Red Dragon gorget.
I own Feders from 1,35kg to 1,7kg. Flexibility varies as well, from 10kg Flex load to 15kg. Well, as long as no one comes around with a 2kg weighing, totally stiff, broad bladed beast of a Longsword during safety checks before Tournaments it should be no Problem to get almost every blade approved.😅
I do agree that if you hit someone with a montante they do tend to expire. Probably best to not allow that in tournaments I reckon.
Absolutely agree on using multiple training tools to triangulate. And that some tools are better for the individual than others (height and length of weapon for example).
The concern we really have is about a misrepresentation of what we are doing. If you are interested in hema and come to class to learn the traditions and methods of ancient masters really using those tools... and you walk into modern Olympic fencing with "long sword" but the school still brands itself as hema. Is that really the same thing anymore?
I love that you seem to believe that an excellently presented discussion from an expert in their field will take care of an online HEMA argument, you sweet Summer child.
My solution to all these "tempests in various teapots" is to live in an area where there is absolutely NO opportunity to learn and train. Makes everything utterly moot. So I want to learn but am free of all the piles of bovine output that inevitably arise from group activities. Some people want to have fun; some want to spread fertilizer. Thanks, Matt.
There is an antique feder hanging in Arundel Castle in Sussex. I'm not saying that's proof that feder were used for practice in England but it does at least raise the possibility that there was more than one way.
personally i like using my blunt sword, it is relatively short (120cm) and at 1.5kg but it is a little front heavy (not unreasonably so) which makes it a bit slow in handling, i also typically use a heavy armour (cuirassiers armour, soon a maximilian armour) when sparring, even when doing bloss, this makes me quite slow in my movements but i think it’s fun (which is why i do hema in the first place). my opponents are usually in normal hema gear which is considerably lighter than my armour and ghey are using feders which are lighter and longer than my sword, but i have to manage and learn how to fight with these self imposed disadvantages which i find quite fun. sometimes however i like putting on a lighter configuration of armour (spaulders instead of pauldrons, no backplate, tassets that go half way down the thigh instead of all the way to the knee) and borrowing a feder, and damn, i notice a difference, a big one, i move faster, i reach further, and i tire out slower, it is such a big difference and it’s very fun, but i don’t think i would feel that way if i always used lighter gear and sword. it also takes my opponent by surprise as i’m usually slower.
but yeah, i fully agree with you, people should use what they want, and is appropriate for what they are doing as long as it’s relatively safe. the important part is to have fun and thus use the equipment that you find fun to use
Thank you for being a voice of reason. 🙂
its important to train with a realistic weapon so that you fight the right way when you get into a swordfight in the future
I assume that using lighter swords against heavier ones will cause durability issues. Speaking from experience in other sports I can also add that even if you regulate weight that's not really enough because for example we have weight regulations for shinai in kendo and most of us simply buy purpose made competition ones that bring the balance as far back as possible to the point where they have even been flirting with regulating a minimum thickness of the lats in the striking area cause it sometimes gets a bit ridiculous lol. I personally prefer not just lighter but somewhat shorter swords to be honest but a general implementation seems a bit impossible and would probably only start happening if hema became more mainstream and a more professional competition subsection emerged.
Great video, absolutely great. Thank you mr. Easton, this video was trully necessary!
So many important points in this video
In kendō, we use feather light shinai. But we also train in kata that are based on historical training methods for katana.
And those bokuto katas are 90% unrelated and not used in Kendo competition, since alot of the actions are not allowed in shiai (like that armlock in Kodachi kata for example). Not a good comparison.
I just started rapier. It seemed kind of heavy (my first time with a metal single-handed sword), but I figured I was just being a wuss who wasn't used to it, yet. Toward the end of class, one of the club members informed me that I picked up the heaviest rapier belonging to the club (I just grabbed the first one off the rack).
Just to point out the term Paratschwert seems to mean parade sword and was according to most sources used in that way. the federfechter also demanded that to be a master one must know all 7 knightly arms and the paratschwert. Some of the sources mention the paratschwert in the context of the fencing guild parading through the streets of the city. there the master or a talented fencer uses the paratschwert to either make fancy flowery movement and even jumps(something that joachim meyers seems to have dissaproven of) or to simply parade it. During parade they would often carry the sword upward with a wreath on the hilt. As far as i could find out none of the sources ever mention them being used in actual fencing rather some pictures seem to imply that they were kind of differently balanced/constructed. And they are often seperately mentioned to normal longswords.
Probably the reason why the replica paratschwert you showed in this video is so differently balanced. it could have been so the flowery movement would work better.
One sword i found interesting is the fencing sword from the Met Museum made by Diefstetter its weight seem to be rather that what i would imagine a fencing feder to be compared to the paratschwert weight. Didn't also Kvetun replicated an 18th century fencing sword that was super thin?
Parat is a German word.
Parat meaning ready at hand, handy, prepared.
That's actually a lot more logical, because the schilt protects the hands from injury.
Parade in l German is... Well... Parade.
@@I_Willenbrock_I
yes but the poems and descriptions are very clear on this. There are also pictures depicting such swords. the above mentioned federfechter mention that sword seperately from the longsword. And its not really logical since this sword is mentioned in the context of parades and sword dances. Parade not only means to parry but also to show off /display something meyer was against.
They also would often use versetzen instead of parrying in this context.
For example 1620 to honour the bohemian king they did a sword dance in munich in which three boys walked forward one with a paratschwert the other with a fencing sword and the last one with a tessack.
So far no german source i have read or im aware of connects paratschwert with fencing.
Theres also an interesting article on hroarr
i'll quote from
"Continuing, the paratschwert is also described, alongside of a fechtschwert in George Reutter’s & Nikolaus Pol’s chronicles about a schwerttanz performed by 36 furriers (likely Marxbrüder) in Breslau (Wroclaw) in 1620.
The "funny" thing is that we (at least in Italy) have already seen this. Before federschwert were popular someone here proposed to use essentially olimpic fencing tools, just repurposed to look more like medieval or reinassance swords. Guess what? Everyone that tried them ditched medieval and reinassance correct tecniques and used them like olimpic fencing tools, because that was what worked best with overly-light swords 😂 (most of the people that I'm aware of tought that was after all a bad idea)
I LOVE my VB "Italian" feder.
The reason I want to get into HEMA is because it hasn't gone the way of Olympic fencing. It's rooted in the functional use of swords (etc) as tools, rather than as sports equipment.
Hey, never thought that, but hitting with the flat, I think, might be the way to go (obviously with the sword NOT being sharp in any way!) I already defend, primarily, with the *flat*, so differentuating, say, in real combat, never seems an issue.
Oh god, are you one of those arma guys who still push the whole "defend with the flat!" thing?
So the standard stroke of the period was delivered with the famous "flatamuhstrong" technique!
There are two kinds of HEMAists. Those who understand this reference, and those who do not.
Flatamuhstrong - silly, bad, ahistorical, a meme
Flatamuhweak - big brain ultimate sparring technique of the old masters, historically accurate, true HEMA
@@atvanael 😂
@@caderly123 it's wild to think about just how out dated and irrelevant the controversy is, and yet the subject lives rent free in my head and pops up at random to remind me it's here. Truly a most insipid meme!
Wait. Will you continue to be Matt Easton though?
If we want our feder/sword to behave close to the originals but still want adequate safty we should limit the max length of feders i think.
If we use long feders with sword like weight its too dangerouse. If we use long light feders it turns into sportfencing.
I completely agree, at some point every serious competition fencer will use the longest lightest possible feder.
Limiting the maximum length to something like 120 cm and setting a minimum weight to 1,2 kg would allow for sword like handling and good safety.
Thats why the usual max feder length of 140 cm here in europe has me worried.
Of course, everyone has the right to do as he pleases, but on the other hand i like having as many training partners doing similar things as i do.
Good perspective. If the swords are too light they abandon much of the historical intent of the weapon.
But lighter versions are great for lots of reasons. I see an exciting future for both and I would definitely use light versions in class for training purposes. Too many guys like the big swords and want to "win" practice during drills with big swords. Lighter versions could be another tool to help break that if applied just so.
Hello, we have no HEMA sabre training in Prague, but there is a variety of modern sports sable fencing, please what would be the closest and easiest to adapt type of modern sabre fencing I should try to learn if I am interested in the full range of motions?
Great 'concise' video as always! I was wondering, wasn't it common for warriors, fencers in Fiore'ish, Meyer'ish times to train with 2-3x heavier swords than the ones used in real encounter/situation?
Heavier weapon training was mostly done as a strength-building exercise if you wanted something different from picking up and moving weights (like rocks) or doing exercises we’d now call calisthenics. This is evidenced in Indian club exercises and oversized examples of Chinese swords and staves and the like that survive today. Similar exercises are mentioned by Vegetius (writing in the era of the Romans) and may be depicted in a few examples of 15th-century artwork.
Actually training against someone in Fiore’s time, we can’t be sure what they used due to how little people wrote down (this also counts as something most people living then assumed as common knowledge). The common modern assumption of blunt longsword shapes is something I wouldn’t argue against here, if they’re well-designed and considered safe enough by all involved.
However - with Joachim Meyer, the illustrations in his treatises match quite well with a small handful of historical examples of surviving feders. All of them are quite handy weights, even the heaviest being under 1700 grams, and the average thereof about 1450 grams for an overall length of ≈130 cm. Each one is made with a longer handle than the typical Fiore-era longsword (or even typical bastard sword, as we label hand-and-a-half examples), which frees the wrists up for certain actions (and allows us as modern fencers to wear our sturdy protective gloves).
I would actually very highly recommend Indian club exercises for shoulder health if you’re a historical fencer - Matt himself did a video on one routine that made its way to England via the period British influence in India. But they scale up to club weights (or modern steel mace-bell weights) that go way beyond any battlefield or courtly or street/everyday weapon, and because they’re different you don’t have to worry about confusing technical-tactical lessons with functional strength and injury-prevention exercises in ways that would make things unsafe for sword-friends.
@@jonharker9028 wow great essay! Thanks. As you mentioned steel maces and clubs are a great way to keep your shoulders in good health and swinging those around also simulates movement with a sword in certain stances.
By the way, what is the purpose of the strange ricasso shape, these "weird bits" as you call them?
They're called "schilt" and they keep the opponents sword farther away from your hands when their blade slides down to your cross guard, as well as having a large mass in front of the hands to make the sword handle more like a real sword. If the blade was just thin all the way from the guard it would be too light and balanced too far back.
An extended version of the video is available on Nebula. 😂 Anyway, I agree, but I think there should be different weight classes. Maybe there aren't enough people to have them but maybe that's because they don't wanna be hurt. Have a good recovery, Matt!
It does bother me a bit to see that the evolution of tournament feders is marching towards longer, thinner, lighter and more reward balanced swords. Seems like the obvious evolution is to make a 48"+ Epee that you are encouraged to hold in two hands.
Your voice sounded rough at the start. Hope you are not ill, and if ailing hope you feel better soon
If one is going to do longsword, it seems like a certain length and mass are part of the game. A lighter sword gives a competitive advantage, and could make injuries worse because the user can achieve much higher speed...
Matt adds more fuel to the fire.
Knicker twisting intensifies
I love it
The Netherlands and Belgium where part of the holy Roman Empire, when Federschwerter were used ;) + The "e" at the end of Parade-Schwert needs to be pronounced, like also in Porsche
there is only one way this ends. that is how we got to Olympic sport fencing. The whole point of HEMA was to get back to "real" historical weapons and techniques. That being said there is no single "historical" sword. classes of weight and size makes sense, though the more classes, the fewer in each class... and pretty soon you are by yourself. But I chose longsword because I wanted longsword, not an Olympic epee! the point was historical accuracy. (if I want to actually defend myself I use a nice 20th century stand-off weapon. but that is a different thread)
Cool jacket, I was thinking if you wore it in battle and an arrow was being fired from afar maybe yhe line off centre would throw off a potential attack to one's side 😀
My personal preference would be "as like real weapons while safe as possible."
But since we probably will never actually need these skills, people wanting more fun (up to and especially LARPing) have every right to that too.
I would enjoy the heavy vs light, long vs short encounter as was the norm in unregulated combat. Life is not an even playing field.
Some fencers need to just admit that they're out of shape and need to start working out if they want to perform at a high or even average level. Is also good for your overall health in the long term.
Hope you get over the cold soon, Matt!
Your club sounds awesome.
Thanks for the video ⚔️
Does that BB sword shop replica taper towards the handle?
Odd, innit, how the answer to so many things is "as long as you're not hurting anyone, you do you and I'll do me." Perhaps we should tell the politicians...
By the time the issue reaches the political level that threshold has usually already been crossed
That wouldn't change much, like no politicians are running on a "it's not that big of a deal but we're going to deal with it anyways".
What they say is that it's a crisis, it's threatening your way of life, if you don't vote for us you're putting your family at risk.
So I love my sporty feeling regenyei shorty, but Castille’s economy longsword Feder is stupidly light. That being said, I’ve seen at least one museum example that is only about 2 pounds.
Let me take a guess before watching...
The proper weight of *your* sword, should be whatever weight favours *your* prefered techniques.
Right?
I know this will be sacrilegious for some, but frankly the fact that the feder is shaped like that makes it, in my appreciation, more controversial for training (IF YOU'RE LOOKING TO SIMULATE A WEAPON OF WAR) than the weight of the sword.
I know it gets appreciated because it's a historical tool for training, but then the question is wether you want to simulate a duel with weapons of war or if you want to _simulate a training simulation_ in the way that people in a certain historical context performed.
That feder's schilt is beautiful
pssss...it's Sigi. I think they mean to sell them in pairs. Think they are probably too light for most tournaments in the State.
I suspect they're not arguing for the right to train with whatever sword they want, but to have the freedom to use them in tournaments, to ease the restrictions on what kind of longswords you can use. Personally I prefer very short longswords and thus the "standard" in tournaments is very clumsy and slow for me.
Is there a video where you describe, what we believe, was the original fighting style in armor?
Modern fencing is all about speed.
Was historic fencing in armor similar - so trying to get a quick peek into an unarmored part of the armor, or was it more of a brute force hacking and slaying to wear down the enemies armor and endurance?
For Christ sake, people should really need to stop thinking historical fencing is all about armoured combat. Modern HEMA mainly focused on combat WITHOUT any armour or partly armoured, which also happened alot in history
@jaketheasianguy3307
It is clear that there was a lot if fencing without armor.
I am just interested if the fighting styles are similar or completely different...
@@BoeserWolf1977 Armoured longsword is very different to the standard longsword as practised in most clubs..... And yes, its mainly about either finding gaps in the harness or controlling your opponent in order to open gaps (using grapples and throws).
Longswords are not good for breaking steel armour so you go around it.
Regarding the end result - epe with long swords...
I this case I demand that the art in European martial art is being crossed out.
I prefer the art aspect over the sport one.
Bloßfechten with adjusted historical rules is so satisfying to watch.
I think we'll finally solve this question once and for all by arguing about it very loudly and angrily on the internet, it's not as if we have Roman sources showing has been a hotly debated point for at least the last three thousand years...
Is there a source for that??? Id love to see it if you have a link!
@@_tonypacheco It was Vegetius in De Re Militari that I was thinking of specifically, though I'm not a classicist so there may be others. He wrote in the 4th century so I may have exaggerated the timeline a little bit, but he refers to training methods used by what he considered "the ancients" throughout and advocates in several places for training weapons to be heavier than battlefield weapons, so it's evident even then that the debate had been going on for centuries already.
Don't have a dog in this fight but: Doesn't depend on your goal? Learning skills and practicing speed and flexibility or Understanding the kind of activity that our ancestors needed to survive their conbats.
Your Lol made my day, Matt. Thanks!!
Weight Classes, with varying requirements for the weapons based on the Class
Kitchen knife fighting is also really big in the UK. 😂
I mean lighter weapons provide certain adventages, mainly in terms of speed and dexterity, they of course have less authority in a cut, but if you're using a roughly 1000g sword and your opponent roughly a 1400g sword, you will have a slight adventage in fencing,
Of course your skill matters a lot more, but it is a competitive adventage, so I think that they should be banned in tournaments, or that tournaments should have a light division with lighter swords and less armor for those that prefer that,
I just think that if you're there to participate in a test of skill it should be more about your skill than equipment, and the equipment should be as uniform as possible, if that equipment is light then its light for everyone, if it's heavy it's heavy for everyone
I'd rather use a blunt like those black fencer ones, no shilt, normal size and weight, something that i could wear every day and sheath/unsheath quickly in self defence, to me thats what a longsword should be, you can still have it on you "comfortably" all those long hilted and bladed feders are defeating the purpose of the longsword, if i wanted a big sword, i would skip these and go for the biggest i can handle..so a montante or a twohander and screw wearability. Its a sidearm first and foremost.
We need to bring back the first blood single stick rules!
I was always taught to start with very light weapons until you learned the correct form and bio-mechanics, and then work up to heavier weapons when you know how to move without using the wrong muscle groups.
I've always been wary of this advice. For example if you give someone a very light sidesword to begin with, they will almost certainly start over extending their wrists in cuts (which is almost impossible to see happening, it's something you need to be aware of as a "feel"), and when they move to a heavier sword, will sprain their wrist immediately. I'm sure theirs some good way around at (eg being a better instructor capable of noticing and correcting it), but it seems to me easier to start with the correctly weighted tool... I am totally open to being wrong though
Historically, the rule of thumb has been the exact opposite. Starting with an intentionally heavier than standard weapon and then moving onto a weapon of normal weight has been a common practice since the Roman Empire.
Nah, people should start with realistically weighted sword right from the get go, not too overly heavy or too light
My gut tells me train heavy & fight light. Romans trained with weighted wooden swords that were heavier than the military swords they would use in battle. Endurance is a factor, a thing you want to develop.