Enjoy this video? Please remember to *LIKE* *&* *SUBSCRIBE!* You can also keep up to date with us on Twitter, Twitch and Tumblr: Randomised Gaming *Blog:* randomisedgaming.tumblr.com *Twitter:* twitter.com/rdmdgaming *Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/randomised_gaming *Buy us a Coffee or Tea at Ko-fi:* ko-fi.com/randomisedgaming Affiliate links in video description, feel free to discuss the video and game in the comment section below, but beware we have TH-cam's swear and link filters active for comments.
Please watch the video in full before adding a comment, I am well aware I mispronounced NTSC a couple of times in the video, no idea why I did that in this video. Seeing as this video is over 3 years old comments related to that fact will just be binned. I would love to do more video like this and will in the future.
Please note, there is a correction about the music run time in the video description and video, we've already had feedback about it from a number of users when the video first went out. For those of you too lazy to open the video description up the correction is included below: [Edit: Correction, Riven made a mistake on the music, Daytona USA use CD digital audio tracks, so the music is always running in real time in both 50Hz and 60Hz. It isn't sped up or slowed down, this would only apply if the audio was synthesised by the console, which is true of many games, just not Daytona USA. However as the PAL version runs too fast at 60Hz the music is cut off as a result. There will be a note on this in the next Hz video] So no, need for further comments on the subject.
We already briefly covered it in the main Saturn Hz guide video we did: th-cam.com/video/EMJvw-z7Tkw/w-d-xo.html However at some point we will cover just about all the racing games, each in their own video, Manx TT, Sega Ages Volume 1, Sega Touring Car, Hang On 95 and Daytona USA CCE; all had various problems introduced due to the PAL corrections done to them.
I remember playing PAL Daytona, it was rough and I definitely remember the game being a bit harder to control , and thus harder to get any decent rank. It also essentially had borders on top of borders, and looked almost like a widescreen game on a 4:3 TV At first I tried setting the game to 60hz with my modded Saturn , but of course that messed up the clock and actually made the game even harder, I couldn't understand why I was having difficulties even finishing some races. Given the game was rushed in general , its no wonder the PAL optimisation was shoddy, I have to wonder if AM2 especially went ahead to do some decent PAL jobs later in part because they got egg on their face with Daytona. Eventually I traded it for the NTSC-J version and never looked back , although Im still torn as to whether its any better than the Japanese CE version (which doesn't quite feel like Daytona, but is a considerably more polished product regardless) Im always weary of PAL optimised games , at the time it was generally better since importing was out of the question for most, but nowadays you never know what quirks it brings.
Why didn’t you trade it for the NTSC-U version? From EGM’s reviews it mentions it was improved for the North American version. Was it more expensive back then to import games from the Americas?
thankfully modern games now run at the intended speed but it was a real problem if you were unfortunate enough to witness the better differences of NTSC games. I bought an import N64 on the strength of seeing Waverace 64 on an NTSC machine because the appallingly slow speed differences meant a lot of the authentic feel of smashing through waves was reduced to feeling like you were on the moon. The only benefit to pal was that it had more lines and this meant a better picture but of course 17% slower as well. Thankfully no longer a problem but yeah if getting a Saturn, Ps1, N64, Snes, Megadrive etc then you really are missing the intended experience if playing by pal
Hi all, just a note to say we don't tolerate abusive messages aimed at our staff, if you can't read the description and the errata from us, your message will be removed. Keep it civil otherwise it destroy any evidence or argument posts you have.
Interesting. So both games run at 1/3rd of the refresh rate (hence ~17fps vs 20fps), which is understandable, but they botched some things in the PAL version wrt to speed of timers and such.
You talk about telling people to subscribe at the beginning of a video "helping" new viewer, and I would say maybe that's the case (I don't know). However, as a new viewer I would say beginning the video at 0:00 instead of including over 5 minutes of nothing would engage me more.
Fair point, the opening was too long in this one, we plan to do more Hz videos on Saturn, when we do we plan to make them a bit shorter and get to the point quicker.
I have a PAL Saturn and ordered a Saroo card to play PAL and NTSC games. Can my Saturn play NTSC games at 60hz with the Saroo or do I need to mod the console?
This still isn't what I'd call the irredeemably bad, but it's not ideal for sure. I experienced worse with allot of PS2 PAL "optimizations" just about anything Ghostlight localized was a dissaster. Digital Devil Saga 1(which didnt have a 50/60 hz switch unlike the sequel) you'd get wrong screen resolution, sloooow everything, all the sound effects are off sync, if you force 60hz the cutscenes dont play right and to top it all off the PAL version loves to freeze up for no reason when starting a random battle and such.
That's very bad and we do have PAL copies of most of their Ghostlight game including Digital Devil Saga. Resident Evil Code Veronica on Dreamcast is another one, we did a short gameplay video last year and you can see the ghosting from where Capcom and Eidos, changed the game from to 50Hz. Removing the VGA as well from the PAL release. Riven was on a podcast video on the subject of 50 & 60 HZ earlier in the wee: th-cam.com/video/yfU94lemGcM/w-d-xo.html
I know the scenes are off sync if you do try to run code veronica in vga, so I guess that means they adjusted the speed correctly? I also know that the PS2 on PS4 version of code Veronica for PAL regions uses the PAL version as basis carrying over terrible ghosting and causing hitches cause they output it at 60 hz anyway. Why are things like that still happening in this day and age I thought we moved past that after the first slew of PSX classics on PSN that were still in unoptimised 50 hz.
It seems a few of the HD PS2 re-releases on the PS4 in PAL are of the PAL version, which is a huge error on the part of Sony. Like yo say it shouldn't be happening in cases where they need the language you should get a choice of the PAL or NTSC version to play. So far we noticed PaRappa the Rapper 2 and Dark Chronicles are both the PAL versions on PS4, Star Wars Bounty Hunter oddly allows you to select the progressive option in-game on PS4 doing so totally breaks the game, turning the screen blue and black, concerningly it also suggests the PS4 is only scaling games at 480i and not 480p when available. We've spotted interlacing elements in the PS4 versions.
Randomised Gaming i guess the thing with 480i/p is sort of a fail safe considering how inconsistent the rendering is in those games. And many games even use both field and frame rendering depending if it's a scene or main menu or something. And some games like soul calibur 2 and star ocean 3 have specifically optimised the 480i mode to display more colors thanks to utilizing field rendering. The pal/ntsc mess up tho is pointless. I could only find it acceptable for a game that was never released in 60hz or the only english release was pal just like forbidden siren 2.
thank you so much for pointing this out I dont know why your or their pal versions was messed up and buggy than our ntsc versions the ntscu or ntscj. maybe it was the modified and optimized version.
The US version of Daytona is the best on Saturn,had some improvements over the Japanese initial release. Most pal games on all consoles were unoptimised back then with slower gameplay and black bars.Sonic and Tekkens are some other dissapointed examples.But with Dreamcast we learned of PAL60 which is the best format.
Certainly on the Saturn you would be wrong a large chuck of games had some form of optimisation done to them, it just wasn't always clear to the player what was changed. As are research on the Saturn shows: randomisedgaming.tumblr.com/post/146372446412/the-complete-european-sega-saturn-60hz-guide-to Nintendo also altered most of their game, but all they did was speed up player movement and little else, resulting in poor versions that didn't match the NTSC version.
Ofcourse there are enough pal optimised games exist but these are exceptions to the rule,pal format was mistreated back then by the developers in general on all consoles
No that's likely down to capture set up changes when this video was made, it's quite an old one and there are a lot of things we would do differently now.
Strange. Never heard of a pal game being faster. But yea I'm sure it makes it feel wrong since ntsc is it's intended speed. One funny thing I noticed is although the pal game is faster the car shakes slower lol. Optimization is interesting. Speeding up the lap time but not the cars movements. I can only imagen how wrong it feels.
Hmmm the music speed shouldn’t be affected in this game... why? Because it’s a standard Audip CD track! It shouldn’t be affected by 50 to 60hz differences unlike the Mega Drive where the music is being processed and kicked out via chips that do get affected by the 50 to 60hz frequency difference......
Someone hasn't read the correction note before commenting, there is a note in the video card and video description about this mistake, please read. The Saturn does both internal music and CD audio. CD audio runs at real time, internal synthesized music runs at the speed of the console. Daytona USA only used CD digital audio tracks and not synthesized music which is where Riven went wrong in the video, many Saturn games don't use CD digital audio tracks so are affected by 50Hz & 60Hz.
Have you considered that not all TH-cam App's on all platforms actually show annotations? I didn't see any kind of message telling me it was incorrect as I was using my Sky Q box with the TH-cam app on there.
It's not an annotation, there's a card that should pop up at 25:58, but to be fair it is easy to miss, cards are supposed to appear on all platforms according to YT, but that might not be true . These days we encourage all commenters to read our detailed video descriptions first, as any errata are always included in there. We've had a lot of commenters in the past asking questions, answered in our descriptions, so we are just trying to nip it in the bud. We don't have as much time as we would like to replay to all comments, so we try to optimised where we can. We will take your point on board about, you not being able to see some cards, annotations.
That's not the first time we heard that joke, what you're actually seeing is a NTSC picture say 480 line image being shown into a PAL 576 line image, the unused extra lines are what causes the game to look bordered.
Interesting video. I'd not realised the PAL version was only 17fps Vs the NTSC-J game's 20. I knew about the horrible black borders, but hadn't realised how squished and ugly looking this made the PAL game look.
By default the NTSC version didn't use a full screen resolution and when it was converted to PAL as a result the display area window was even smaller. Which was an issue many reviewers picked up on at the time.
@@RandomisedGamingTH-cam If you're interested, I actually did a little video interpolation experiment to see what the Saturn game would look like with a fake interpolated 60fps. The video's still fairly recent, so if you wanted to give it a look-see you can see it in my recent uploads.
If you played a Japanese developed game for many years at PAL and then only recently played the NTSC version, you may think it looks stretched the first time you see it. A few PAL developed games can look a little odd at NTSC, such as Tomb Raider, which caused some textures to look incorrect on console at 60Hz. That said without knowing what resolution the developers intended to run the game at you can't be sure.
Randomised Gaming that’s a fair point. I spent my childhood on PAL versions so no wonder I’m used to that. Even the Sega logo looks too tall to me on NTSC game intro.
Riven our editor had that same issue the first time he played Shining Force III at 60Hz back in 2000 as he's spent a year playing it at 50Hz. So at first it looked stretched to him.
Seeing as the title of the video is PAL vs NTSC and it's mentioned lots in the description. Did I mispronounce NTSC a few times at the start of the video yes. This video is over four years old and I would make a number of changes to it if I could.
Suspect there might be a bit of sarcasm here ;) . In all truth it really depends what the developer planned as the lead region of the game, in Daytona USA case it was NTSC 60Hz and the game was properly converted to PAL 50Hz. Same is true the reverse way around where PAL titles can end up running to fast on NTSC. By the time of the PlayStation 2 era it was possible to get 50Hz to match 60Hz speeds. These days it's no longer an issue, but it does turn up from time to time with retro reissues.
??? None of us have worked for Digital Foundry, if that's what you are suggesting. Riven has worked in the games industry directly, so has an in-depth understanding of how games are made.
Enjoy this video? Please remember to *LIKE* *&* *SUBSCRIBE!* You can also keep up to date with us on Twitter, Twitch and Tumblr:
Randomised Gaming *Blog:* randomisedgaming.tumblr.com *Twitter:* twitter.com/rdmdgaming
*Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/randomised_gaming *Buy us a Coffee or Tea at Ko-fi:* ko-fi.com/randomisedgaming
Affiliate links in video description, feel free to discuss the video and game in the comment section below, but beware we have TH-cam's swear and link filters active for comments.
Please watch the video in full before adding a comment, I am well aware I mispronounced NTSC a couple of times in the video, no idea why I did that in this video. Seeing as this video is over 3 years old comments related to that fact will just be binned. I would love to do more video like this and will in the future.
Please note, there is a correction about the music run time in the video description and video, we've already had feedback about it from a number of users when the video first went out. For those of you too lazy to open the video description up the correction is included below:
[Edit: Correction, Riven made a mistake on the music, Daytona USA use CD digital audio tracks, so the music is always running in real time in both 50Hz and 60Hz. It isn't sped up or slowed down, this would only apply if the audio was synthesised by the console, which is true of many games, just not Daytona USA. However as the PAL version runs too fast at 60Hz the music is cut off as a result. There will be a note on this in the next Hz video] So no, need for further comments on the subject.
Sega Touring Car PAL was horrendous compared to the NTSC version! You ought to make a video on that one!
We already briefly covered it in the main Saturn Hz guide video we did: th-cam.com/video/EMJvw-z7Tkw/w-d-xo.html
However at some point we will cover just about all the racing games, each in their own video, Manx TT, Sega Ages Volume 1, Sega Touring Car, Hang On 95 and Daytona USA CCE; all had various problems introduced due to the PAL corrections done to them.
Randomised Gaming ok, thanks!
Yes, the biggest disappointment ive ever had in gaming!
Sega Touring Car is a ok game in my Opinion
@@doramilitiakatiemelody1875 Agree. And it plays a lot better with the 3D controller.
I remember playing PAL Daytona, it was rough and I definitely remember the game being a bit harder to control , and thus harder to get any decent rank. It also essentially had borders on top of borders, and looked almost like a widescreen game on a 4:3 TV
At first I tried setting the game to 60hz with my modded Saturn , but of course that messed up the clock and actually made the game even harder, I couldn't understand why I was having difficulties even finishing some races.
Given the game was rushed in general , its no wonder the PAL optimisation was shoddy, I have to wonder if AM2 especially went ahead to do some decent PAL jobs later in part because they got egg on their face with Daytona.
Eventually I traded it for the NTSC-J version and never looked back , although Im still torn as to whether its any better than the Japanese CE version (which doesn't quite feel like Daytona, but is a considerably more polished product regardless)
Im always weary of PAL optimised games , at the time it was generally better since importing was out of the question for most, but nowadays you never know what quirks it brings.
Why didn’t you trade it for the NTSC-U version? From EGM’s reviews it mentions it was improved for the North American version. Was it more expensive back then to import games from the Americas?
Getting my Saturn switched gave my games a whole new lease of life. PAL gaming prior to proper optimisation that we have now was a different world
thankfully modern games now run at the intended speed but it was a real problem if you were unfortunate enough to witness the better differences of NTSC games. I bought an import N64 on the strength of seeing Waverace 64 on an NTSC machine because the appallingly slow speed differences meant a lot of the authentic feel of smashing through waves was reduced to feeling like you were on the moon. The only benefit to pal was that it had more lines and this meant a better picture but of course 17% slower as well. Thankfully no longer a problem but yeah if getting a Saturn, Ps1, N64, Snes, Megadrive etc then you really are missing the intended experience if playing by pal
Hi all, just a note to say we don't tolerate abusive messages aimed at our staff, if you can't read the description and the errata from us, your message will be removed. Keep it civil otherwise it destroy any evidence or argument posts you have.
Interesting. So both games run at 1/3rd of the refresh rate (hence ~17fps vs 20fps), which is understandable, but they botched some things in the PAL version wrt to speed of timers and such.
You talk about telling people to subscribe at the beginning of a video "helping" new viewer, and I would say maybe that's the case (I don't know). However, as a new viewer I would say beginning the video at 0:00 instead of including over 5 minutes of nothing would engage me more.
Fair point, the opening was too long in this one, we plan to do more Hz videos on Saturn, when we do we plan to make them a bit shorter and get to the point quicker.
I have a PAL Saturn and ordered a Saroo card to play PAL and NTSC games.
Can my Saturn play NTSC games at 60hz with the Saroo or do I need to mod the console?
This still isn't what I'd call the irredeemably bad, but it's not ideal for sure. I experienced worse with allot of PS2 PAL "optimizations" just about anything Ghostlight localized was a dissaster. Digital Devil Saga 1(which didnt have a 50/60 hz switch unlike the sequel) you'd get wrong screen resolution, sloooow everything, all the sound effects are off sync, if you force 60hz the cutscenes dont play right and to top it all off the PAL version loves to freeze up for no reason when starting a random battle and such.
That's very bad and we do have PAL copies of most of their Ghostlight game including Digital Devil Saga. Resident Evil Code Veronica on Dreamcast is another one, we did a short gameplay video last year and you can see the ghosting from where Capcom and Eidos, changed the game from to 50Hz. Removing the VGA as well from the PAL release. Riven was on a podcast video on the subject of 50 & 60 HZ earlier in the wee: th-cam.com/video/yfU94lemGcM/w-d-xo.html
I know the scenes are off sync if you do try to run code veronica in vga, so I guess that means they adjusted the speed correctly?
I also know that the PS2 on PS4 version of code Veronica for PAL regions uses the PAL version as basis carrying over terrible ghosting and causing hitches cause they output it at 60 hz anyway. Why are things like that still happening in this day and age I thought we moved past that after the first slew of PSX classics on PSN that were still in unoptimised 50 hz.
It seems a few of the HD PS2 re-releases on the PS4 in PAL are of the PAL version, which is a huge error on the part of Sony. Like yo say it shouldn't be happening in cases where they need the language you should get a choice of the PAL or NTSC version to play. So far we noticed PaRappa the Rapper 2 and Dark Chronicles are both the PAL versions on PS4, Star Wars Bounty Hunter oddly allows you to select the progressive option in-game on PS4 doing so totally breaks the game, turning the screen blue and black, concerningly it also suggests the PS4 is only scaling games at 480i and not 480p when available. We've spotted interlacing elements in the PS4 versions.
Randomised Gaming i guess the thing with 480i/p is sort of a fail safe considering how inconsistent the rendering is in those games. And many games even use both field and frame rendering depending if it's a scene or main menu or something. And some games like soul calibur 2 and star ocean 3 have specifically optimised the 480i mode to display more colors thanks to utilizing field rendering.
The pal/ntsc mess up tho is pointless. I could only find it acceptable for a game that was never released in 60hz or the only english release was pal just like forbidden siren 2.
thank you so much for pointing this out I dont know why your or their pal versions was messed up and buggy than our ntsc versions the ntscu or ntscj. maybe it was the modified and optimized version.
The US version of Daytona is the best on Saturn,had some improvements over the Japanese initial release.
Most pal games on all consoles were unoptimised back then with slower gameplay and black bars.Sonic and Tekkens are some other dissapointed examples.But with Dreamcast we learned of PAL60 which is the best format.
Certainly on the Saturn you would be wrong a large chuck of games had some form of optimisation done to them, it just wasn't always clear to the player what was changed. As are research on the Saturn shows: randomisedgaming.tumblr.com/post/146372446412/the-complete-european-sega-saturn-60hz-guide-to
Nintendo also altered most of their game, but all they did was speed up player movement and little else, resulting in poor versions that didn't match the NTSC version.
Ofcourse there are enough pal optimised games exist but these are exceptions to the rule,pal format was mistreated back then by the developers in general on all consoles
The color tone's different on the US ntsc version also? I didnt realize
No that's likely down to capture set up changes when this video was made, it's quite an old one and there are a lot of things we would do differently now.
I haven't played it recently, but I seem to remember the US version of Daytona USA having some gnarly screen borders as well.
Yes it does, the same size borders as the Japanese version shown in the video as both counties use the NTSC system for their TV.
Strange. Never heard of a pal game being faster. But yea I'm sure it makes it feel wrong since ntsc is it's intended speed. One funny thing I noticed is although the pal game is faster the car shakes slower lol. Optimization is interesting. Speeding up the lap time but not the cars movements. I can only imagen how wrong it feels.
Have the pal Saturn and 360 version
Same
Hmmm the music speed shouldn’t be affected in this game... why? Because it’s a standard Audip CD track! It shouldn’t be affected by 50 to 60hz differences unlike the Mega Drive where the music is being processed and kicked out via chips that do get affected by the 50 to 60hz frequency difference......
Someone hasn't read the correction note before commenting, there is a note in the video card and video description about this mistake, please read. The Saturn does both internal music and CD audio. CD audio runs at real time, internal synthesized music runs at the speed of the console. Daytona USA only used CD digital audio tracks and not synthesized music which is where Riven went wrong in the video, many Saturn games don't use CD digital audio tracks so are affected by 50Hz & 60Hz.
Have you considered that not all TH-cam App's on all platforms actually show annotations? I didn't see any kind of message telling me it was incorrect as I was using my Sky Q box with the TH-cam app on there.
It's not an annotation, there's a card that should pop up at 25:58, but to be fair it is easy to miss, cards are supposed to appear on all platforms according to YT, but that might not be true . These days we encourage all commenters to read our detailed video descriptions first, as any errata are always included in there. We've had a lot of commenters in the past asking questions, answered in our descriptions, so we are just trying to nip it in the bud. We don't have as much time as we would like to replay to all comments, so we try to optimised where we can. We will take your point on board about, you not being able to see some cards, annotations.
Useless fact: I didn't know PAL version was in widescreen.
That's not the first time we heard that joke, what you're actually seeing is a NTSC picture say 480 line image being shown into a PAL 576 line image, the unused extra lines are what causes the game to look bordered.
Interesting video. I'd not realised the PAL version was only 17fps Vs the NTSC-J game's 20. I knew about the horrible black borders, but hadn't realised how squished and ugly looking this made the PAL game look.
By default the NTSC version didn't use a full screen resolution and when it was converted to PAL as a result the display area window was even smaller. Which was an issue many reviewers picked up on at the time.
@@RandomisedGamingTH-cam If you're interested, I actually did a little video interpolation experiment to see what the Saturn game would look like with a fake interpolated 60fps. The video's still fairly recent, so if you wanted to give it a look-see you can see it in my recent uploads.
Will check it out.
Lucky i have my Good NTSC-J copy
Hi from Japan
Is it me or, rather than the PAL version looking squashed, does the NTSC version look stretched?
If you played a Japanese developed game for many years at PAL and then only recently played the NTSC version, you may think it looks stretched the first time you see it. A few PAL developed games can look a little odd at NTSC, such as Tomb Raider, which caused some textures to look incorrect on console at 60Hz. That said without knowing what resolution the developers intended to run the game at you can't be sure.
Randomised Gaming that’s a fair point. I spent my childhood on PAL versions so no wonder I’m used to that. Even the Sega logo looks too tall to me on NTSC game intro.
Riven our editor had that same issue the first time he played Shining Force III at 60Hz back in 2000 as he's spent a year playing it at 50Hz. So at first it looked stretched to him.
Both versions are great quality though cannot beat to model2 version.
You do realize it's NTSC, not NTST, right?
Seeing as the title of the video is PAL vs NTSC and it's mentioned lots in the description. Did I mispronounce NTSC a few times at the start of the video yes. This video is over four years old and I would make a number of changes to it if I could.
I'm having an existential crisis in my stupid PAL world :')
Suspect there might be a bit of sarcasm here ;) . In all truth it really depends what the developer planned as the lead region of the game, in Daytona USA case it was NTSC 60Hz and the game was properly converted to PAL 50Hz. Same is true the reverse way around where PAL titles can end up running to fast on NTSC. By the time of the PlayStation 2 era it was possible to get 50Hz to match 60Hz speeds. These days it's no longer an issue, but it does turn up from time to time with retro reissues.
Daytona usa pal 10 fps?
More around 15fps in PAL, Riven seems to recall.
@@RandomisedGamingTH-cam ok
Ex digital foundry
??? None of us have worked for Digital Foundry, if that's what you are suggesting. Riven has worked in the games industry directly, so has an in-depth understanding of how games are made.