Tiger cub Ignition Mount - Part 1 // Paul Brodie's Shop
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
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#triump #tigercub #ignition #fussyframebuilder
Hey Paul, I love it that rather than fuss and fume about the vendor that refuses to help you out, you dive in and solve the problem! I agree with @Larry Palmer in that your solution is truly elegant. Watching your videos is GREAT THERAPY! Thanks a bunch.
Thank you Tom. Making stuff is my therapy :)
And improves the design !!!!
@@timothylawson4518 Thank you Timothy.
Paul, I am following this build with a lot of interest. You do very nice work.
Back in the '70's, I had read a motorcycle publication about installing a Chrysler electronic ignition system onto a Triumph twin. At the time I was building my BSA 441 to have fun in the dirt and actually competed in motocross a handful of times. The timing of the article was perfect for my build.
Since I owned a Chrysler ECU box - the control unit, I had to purchase the connector (which I think I got at a salvage yard), a new 12V auto ignition coil, ballast resistor, Slant 6 reluctor (6 lobes instead of 8), transducer (pick up coil), and a coil bracket. I disassembled the BSA advance unit and machined off the cam lobe for the points, making the OD the same size as the ID of the reluctor, then I brazed them together and filed off 5 of the 6 reluctor lobes (poles?). The taper mount of the 441 advance unit is not keyed so position did not matter for timing purposes. When complete, the advance weights and springs were reinstalled. I removed the points from the point plate and installed the transducer. I honestly forget if I had to drill and tap a new hole or use the original. I lined up the transducer pickup with the reluctor lobe and torqued down the bolt. Timing was done by adjusting the original point plate. It fits under the original cover. I get a fat blue spark and the spark plug is opened to either 0.080" or 0.060", has never misfired and only pings if I am in say 4th when trying to pick up speed from a walking pace. This is with , if memory serve me, a 10.0:1 compression psiton and a Norris flat track regrind cam. Sad Norris is no more.
BTW, I mounted the ECU on the back side of the front number plate. The alternator powers only the ignition and utilizes the Triumph capacitor held upside down in the mounting spring and the Zener diode was retained along with the heat sink. Coil and ballast resistor can be mounted anywhere. I brazed the coil bracket to the upper frame tube and "kinda" hides it nicely under the original BAS 441 gas tank. Mounting this system on a Triumph causes a wasted spark because it requires 2 lobes to be left on the reluctor exactly opposite each other. The wasted spark presents no problems and the B40 does not have this issue being a single cylinder. Rock Auto here in the states has all the parts at the lowest price but, the connector for the control box is expensive, about $80.00. It is also becoming rare to find these parts in a salvage yard.
This was an extremely satisfying modification for me.
CAD design, Cardboard Aided Design. Love it.
Paul, I suspect you have more stories than that! Thanks for watching and commenting :)
so 1 would hope ? I took a lean brn . , scrap. put Mallory adj dwell., sweet 318
“Wreaking of Mickey Mouse”. I’m gonna borrow that phrase Paul, it describes the vast majority of my projects to a tee. Thanks! Keep on Mickey Mousing good sir!
Me and Mickey Mouse don't have much in common.
Love how you turn No into NOtes
I love this. “Oh you’re not going to help me out or sell me the parts I need? Well let me just make your product but better.” Hahahaa
R&D for sure!
I love it. Nothing is as motivating as someone telling you no.
So true! Thanks for watching.
It's so much more fun when companies wont sell you stuff. Great solutions Paul
Yes, and I won't be sending them a Xmas card this year.
Paul, I certainly had a good chuckle at your CAD remark, made my morning! That aside, the old "cardboard template" trick is still an extremely useful and valuable workshop tool, especially for "one offs", as you are obviously well aware.
Thank you so much for sharing your time, processes, and of course, your humour.
Also, Mitch, love your work!
Tim
Thank you Tim. Very nice comments.
Its so cool to watch you work out problems, I like that you don't go to the computer and draw it up or use a hand scanner 3D thing Just some carboard and holding pieces up to pictures and what you call Mickey Mouse to me just seems to make since and time saving. Thanks for sharing your talent and thanks for capturing it on camera Mitch! Have a coffee on e guys!
Thanks Rick. I like your comments.
I need a PVL ignition for my trials cub here in the U.K, great advertisement for Feked off who won't be benefiting from my custom now. I guess you reap what you sow.
Yes, Feked off were not helpful at all. It was a bit surprising. We're talking about (2) Allen screws!
Totally enjoy seeing you solve problems that will plague the bike from now on if you don’t. Keep up the good work!
Thank you Gordon.
It would seem that Feked off, basically told you to feke off. Good for you, coming up with your own solution.
My emails to them were always polite.
@@paulbrodie No doubt.
Hi Paul,
Your 5/16 BSF thread form is 55 degrees which is close but not the same as metric / UNF and a unf thread form thread could be used but will not fit well, as you have illustrated.
Peruse the Whitworth section of MacHenry’s handbook and you will see the differences between the 2 forms.
Fortunately there are NPT insert cutters, which are 55 degrees/Whitworth form, that will cut the correct thread for you, from McMaster-Carr and others.
A nice Cub and I look forward to seeing it finished.
Take care and stay safe.
Yes, I suppose I am not being perfectly accurate with thread angle, but you know what? The thread feels fine and I do anticipate any issues. Thanks for watching and commenting.
@@paulbrodie Hi Paul.
From playing with Whitworth/BSF and substituting unc/unf (and vice versa) and making things fit, the differences in tooth, root, od form and depth in high stress, vibration and heat differential applications is not conducive to good torque retention, no matter how much loctite, lock wire, lock nuts or the fitting of lock tabs you throw at it.
I’d hate to see all your hard work and effort result in a broken bike.
Your primary tensioner is well designed and should control over-run whip nicely.
My 2 bob’s worth.
Play safe.
I'm impressed once again! I would never be so brave.
Thanks David.
Really good problem solving👍 I used to put these kind of ignition systems on Ducati singles, for this I built a mashine that allowed me to adjust the Iglition outside of the engine. The wires were then routed through the Breather and out of the breather-bottle.
Thank you H-J.K.
Just checked out Feked on the net. The consensus seems to be that they are a rude bunch of shits. Anyhoo, excellent video, as always. Many thanks.
Well that's good to know it wasn't just me. My emails were polite. Thanks Bill!
Just coz it can't be bought doesn't mean it can't be made. Great thinking outside the box. T
Thanks Trevor.
Regards from Squamish always one more thing before the finish line.
Hello Squamish!
2am over here, can't sleep, might as well enjoy some chill bike content 👍
Bike building is hard, all those bespoke parts... good to see someone who knows what they are doing. Great content!
Tarou, thanks for watching and commenting. Hope you get some sleep :)
Paul
Off to TALMAG tomorrow I’ll get some pictures of the trials cubs for you. I’m surprised that the English company wouldn’t help you but their name is a play on words. I do love the way you just overcome issues without batting an eyelid.
Rgds Jon.
Thanks Jon. There's always a way, somehow.
Most Cub ignitions are fitted by spot facing the cases, drilling and tapping 2 holes and then fitting mounting pillars, to bolt the stator to. This method seems to work best, and means rotor air gap and timing are both easily adjusted. Anyone with machine shop facilities, can easily adapt a cheap pit bike ignition to work on a Brit 4T single, and these seem to work very well.
Something that very often gets forgotten on Cubs is to modify the crankcases, so the gearbox sprocket can be removed, without stripping the motor completely. Essentially the same arrangement as used on twins, a round inspection plate, which is screwed to the crankcase half. It's certainly worth fitting a chain tensioner to the primary chain, but this is impossible in some cases, if an ignition stator which fits to crankcase bolts has been used.
Electrex always used to do a kit of parts to fit one of their systems to mounting pillars, which had been fitted to the case after machining had taken place. No idea if they still do them or not, though.
Yes, I will be installing a round inspection case so I can remove the countershaft sprocket without splitting the cases. Video coming soon!
Hi Paul, nice to see how you handle the technical challenges you face when upgrading an old(er) bike. Having and riding a short stroke 250cc Aermacchiso in classic "race' demos you sometimes have to come up with solutions of your own and your channel is a great inspiration! Thanks and keep going! :-)
Dingenman, thanks for watching and commenting.
excellent detail knowledge
Thank you.
Paul You may find those bolts for future reference at ACCU Parts.. They will deliver Internationally!!
Thanks Boris. If I need more I will check them out..
Nice work. I believe that 5/16 inch 22 tpi is British Standard Fine (BSF). Since it’s a standard thread size, you would think they would be readily available, but they are not. I also ran into that some years ago when working on a 1964 Triumph TR6. Thanks for sharing your work.
Thanks Moto deSoto. I did Google, and emailed other Cub owners, but 5/16" X 22 tpi surely is a rare, oddball size when you are searching for 3" long Allen screws.
You come highly recommended by Matt Hudson from the Workshop channel. You are indeed the real deal.
Thanks Steven, and I must remember to thank Matt as well.
Away for a week and come back to 2 episodes 👌who needs to buy from uncooperative vendors when you can make it 👍👌
Cheers Chris
Hi Chris!
paul brodie: You have my deepest respect. You have skills way above mine and many others. There is another TH-camr that is in your rank. And that person is Mr. Millyard. I believe you know this person. I think this world is not ready for the results of a get-together of you two. OMG! What would conspire if you two put your heads together. THAT, I want to see before I die.
Thank you Stanley. I watch Allen's videos. Never met or talked to him.Pretty neat what he can do with a hacksaw and Tig welder.
@@paulbrodie Maybe you and Allen can collaborate on something someday. It would be awesome and nobody would be able to touch it. Or you could be each other's TH-cam Secret Santas when Christmas rolls around.
@@RReese08 I would greatly appreciate it
Fantastic
Thanks Paul & Mitch. Always good content.
Hi Paul, Your work inspired me to carry on with my project and start fabricating instead of buying parts. Struggling to understand how to buy you both a coffee…
Thank you Joep. That's excellent you have found some inspiration to make stuff! The coffee link is at the bottom of the video in the description.
Thanks for sharing....most enjoyable......and educational...
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching.
Fantastic watching how you work things out.
Thank you! Cheers!
Very impressed that you decided to whittle that out of a single monolithic block instead of a flat plate with three feet added on. Will be a shame such a beautiful piece is hidden behind the cover!
A flat plate with 3 feet added on doesn't work because of the inner shape of the primary case. I am working with space constraints and it has been a challenge.
@@paulbrodie Ahh, I see exactly what you mean upon further inspection. I'm still impressed even if you had little other choice! Maybe a 5+ part weldment could have pulled it off, at which point I'm not sure that's any easier.
Can't wait to see how it comes together.
@@bradley3549 If I weld 6061 aluminum it becomes soft, so I only do that if there is no other way. You will have to wait until next Saturday to see the end result. This is a 3 part series.
Nice solution to a interesting problem.
Yes, thanks
I’ve used the electrex world kit on my BSA B40 and am really pleased so far. Although the whole system is more or less mounted like you did it - not on the primary cover.
I'm looking forward to see how it performs.
Paul you mentioned you plan to glue the 5/8" ali rod to the casing as well as the fastener. Thought I woud share a process that has worked for me in case you have not used this method before. I have had good luck with using epoxy when I wet sand the resin onto both Aluminum parts to be fastened. I have been told by the tech help at West System that if one dry sands the aluminum instead of wet sanding the parts, the aluminum will simply oxodize as fast as you can sand it so they recommend wet sanding with the epoxy resin. I aceatone clean first and then wet sand the contact area of the pieces with 80 grit and the resin to help things key in. Not sure if you have tried this but I have had very good luck with this process in the past.......wayne bergman
Thanks Wayne. I use Pratley Steel epoxy and I always dry sand with 80 grit for best results. Looks like we have different techniques for sure!
Feck is the correct spelling. As in “that Paul Brodie is feckin’ good” 👍
AAh... Humour!
@@paulbrodie 😉👍
Paul, this is a very interesting project !!
Yes, it is. Working within the confines of the primary chain case is definitely a challenge.
Fifty years ago I went to great lengths to replace the ignition system in my Tiger Cub also. I found a magneto that I could couple to the lower part of the stock distributor. It was very Mickey Mouse but it worked reliably. I really appreciate the elegance of your modifications. Would it have been possible to replace the threads it the case with heli-coils and use SAE or metric bolts?
Yes, it would be possible to do helicoils. I'm not a fan of them. I have seen too many of them unwind with the bolt. Thanks for liking our videos :)
@@paulbrodie I have a problem with the Vincent twin I am restoring. Due to a long-ago bodge, one of the cylinder stud threads in the crank case is stripped. The thread is 9/16" + .006" 20 TPI (BSF). Yes, really, it's +.006". How would you repair that?
@@pashakdescilly7517 Send me an email (my address is somewhere in the description...) and I will put you in touch with someone who has a friend who knows how to do that sort of thing.
The wear on the crank pin and connectingrod is insane. When I was a kid the local auto parts store had a disc brake rotor hanging on the wall that had one side completely worn down to the cooling fins.
I think we'll take the crank apart and have a little look.
@@paulbrodie I t would definitely be interesting to take a look. I think that this motor went RAT A TAT TAT, but not in a good way.
BRAISING FLUX suplier please. Sask asking, love yourè channel.
Brazing flux... Gasflux Company, Elyria, Ohio, USA.
Holy catfish, Paul. Too bad that company in England wouldn't play nice and sell you even a couple bolts or anything. Like some of the other commenters here are saying, you should formalize your drawings to help other TG cub owners who are also in your situation and sell them or post them online. That company in England really feked up.
I still don't have a drawing for this part. It was a "build as you go" fabrication. I have many, many hours into this ignition mount, so I don't think it would be suitable for the average hobbyist. Thanks for watching.
@@paulbrodie Well, it was an idea. I didn't say that it was a *good* idea. :P
I think your a bit fussy with the crank, probably just run in🤣🤣
My brothers cub knocked out its bigend and had to be rebuilt. I think the oil pump is a bit weak, there is a mod for it though I understand.
Later oil pumps were better than earlier ones.
With that grossly worn big end I wonder if the piston was hitting the head at TDC.
That is a possibility. The knocking noise must have been very loud. Absolute abuse of that little motor.
nice upload as always
Big thanks, eh?
It always shocked me that some British motorcycles (AMC) had the alternator mounted to the primary chaincase cover, instead of the crankcase. With Lucas rotors sometimes not having the correct clearance between it & the stator, it would cause catastrophic failures. How do you check that clearance when the 2 parts are mounted on different castings !
Exactly. It's not a smart way of doing things!
👍👍
Thanks, I enjoy watching how you come up with creative solutions to problems, you have a very analytic mind. 👍 Btw I noticed you have left hand threads in the holes on your drawing.😉 Keep the videos coming.
You're the second viewer to notice that. I always draw them that way for some reason.
Your sketches are great 👍, just ribbing you.
I bet you’re good with an etch-a-sketch, lol.
Had one when I was a kid...
I cant believe that a company can be so mean as to refuse the saie of a couple of bolts!
Feked Off is a perfect description ...
Check the pitch diameter of the original bolt with PeeDee wires.
And make them the same on the new bolts.
Yes, I really do need to get some PeeDee wires.
Would those bolts possibly be a whitworth style thread? That might explain why you had more difficulty than usual trying to make the new bolts. In particular a 5/16-22 thread seems to be standard in BSF with a 55° angle rather than the modern standard of 60.
You are correct about the 55 degree thread angle.
Once you are done with your design you should offer to sell it to Feked and then if they show interest just stop communication with them. They probably don't care anyway but if they did it'd be cool.
Well, I'm not sure that's the right way to handle the situation...
@@paulbrodie I know but it can be irritating when a company won't even respond even when you are offering to pay for what you want. Especially when they sell the item. They may just be afraid of design theft when someone asks for just part of a product though. You may be able to create something great with them if handled the "right way". Good luck on your builds.
@@bigjim8088 They may be afraid of design theft, but I am retired and have zero interest in stealing a design and then trying to make some money. I know all about micro niche markets. It's never about the money...
Not micky mouse, but a transfer punch is the more appropriate tool. If you have the right size…
My shop has no transfer punches...
@@paulbrodie Make them‼👍
I wish I could find a friend that wanted to do stuff like this.....
I hope you do find that friend :)
@@paulbrodie - Living in a town that's pretty much overrun w/ drug addicts makes it very difficult to find a trustworthy person, let alone one w/ a shop and tools... Then there's people that have the tools I need but they try to overcharge you or they want to trade drugs for it. SMH
@@xpndblhero5170 Perhaps you need to relocate to a different town?
@@paulbrodie - Trust me, I want to but I also want to try and make something happen here... Its a small town but it's big enough to host the largest motorcycle rally in the state so i can make a nice little life here, if I had a small workshop, I could do custom electric bikes and sell them at the motorcycle rally. I have plans for all this but the funding and stuff is always the first hurdle... Also that sounds like a lot of work and I'm kind of lazy. 🤣🤣
@@xpndblhero5170 Yes, it does take a certain kind of person to become a motivated entrepreneur. Keep at it!
The Cub Abuse Scandal! Rarely talked about here these days. Not really a joking matter, I know.
That British company missed an opportunity to be well spoken of too. My guess is that they are subcontract the manufacture of everything, then assembled them all for sale as a packaged assembly. Maybe they only order sufficient bolts for each assembly. But what happens if a customer needs a spare…?
Yes, it is just a little mind boggling that it was all over two Allen screws. You would think that motorcyclists would want to help each other..
Hi Paul , interested in the build. Having 2 cubs and rebuilding them several times.
The crankcase bolts are 5/16 22 BSF. Having helicoiled them in the past.
Yes, that is the size. Thanks for watching.
First time viewer and I’m glad I stopped to watch. I had to laugh at your “CAD” implementation as it’s something I relate to in my own shop. Interestingly, we both have the same affliction in how we represent screws...why is it that it’s always a left hand thread?
I never really thought about which way the threads went. I will check tomorrow in my shop. Thanks for stopping by and watching :)
Sickkk
Exactly.
A weird name? No, your service trying to buy the ancillary pieces was Feked Off ...
That's a lot of trouble to go to just to avoid buying what looks like a really nice, bolt in upgrade.
Not really, no. That's a lot of effort to avoid dealing with a company that refuses to work with a potential customer.
It's a project, an engineering puzzle, a machining challenge, and TH-cam content.
18:20
Yet another inspiring from Paul Brodie, Hope all is well, send my best wishes to the 60 thousand + truckers in Ontario protesting about the vaccine mandate.
Thank you David. I'm not supporting anti vaccers.
Surely you have to press that big end apart, just to see the damage. Please.
We might just have to do that!
When you said, that you had to make the thread sloppy, was the thread angle correct?
Apparently not. I forgot to buy new cutters with a 55 degree angle..
Ce n'est pas très sympa de la part de cette entreprise ☹, ils auraient au moins pu vous renseigner pour les vis.
Mais je suis certain que la pièce que vous réaliserez sera meilleure 💯👍
I assume you know of Micheal Waller? brit bike clever bloke? He's on TH-cam doing brilliant work in a similar setup to yours, owns or use to own I believe, .Britannia motor cycles
in New York state.
Yes, I have seen some of Michael's videos. I did not know he used to own Britannia M/Cs..
I’m curious as to why you aren’t making two more stanchions for the other fixing points so that you can use a thinner piece of plate?
It's all to do with space considerations. Getting an ignition and a chain tensioner into that space is not easy. And then the primary cover has to go on. I wanted the chain tensioner to be an integral part, not a bolt on.
👍😎👍
'is this an approved method' well, you could've used a transfer punch? :)
Nice to see a Superior version of an inferior product from an un helpful company
Thanks for commenting :)
Hi any chance of manufacturing one for me how much would the approx cost be
Hi, I think the chances are pretty low. I am retired and my list of projects is not getting any smaller. I have to finish 2 bicycles for a Bike Show next spring, so that is my big priority. Sorry.....
@@paulbrodie No harm in trying me mum always said if you don't ask you don't get 😁😁 cheers Paul keep up the great work
Did you use a 55 deg threading insert for the bsf bolt ?
No I did not. Probably lose points over that. Sorry.
Were the original threads 55 degrees and not 60?
I dislike companies that 'helpful, guess 100% of nothing is better than 50% of something?
Yes, it's a BSF thread so to be perfectly accurate the threads should be 55 degrees.
What will happen with the charging system?
Ignition system is self generating,
You have to run dead loss which is not a problem .
Who wants to ride a cub in the dark, not me.
There is no charging system. I will run a 12V battery to power the lights and horn to make the bike street legal. Short trips only.
"Cardboard Aided Design" 😅
Yes, CAD for sure.
You should tell them fek off then...
Communication has ceased.
Or tell them the real "F" word.
Miserable Brits not selling you a few bits and pieces! Hope you let them know you've made your own stuff -- and it's better than theirs!!
Rude. Almost like they told you to feke off.
We certainly weren't becoming friends..