I love the concept of leading the DM. I’m working on it as an actual game mechanic in my homebrew. The idea is that characters with tactical situational abilities actually narrate parts of the environment on their successes. No one wants to narrate every detail of every room, and players can fill in the blanks with plausible descriptions. So, the swashbuckler trapped by the guards running up the stairs in the ballroom doesn’t really ask about the chandelier; he succeeds in his Swashbuckling skill and simply says, “I grab the rope anchoring the chandelier and cut it loose, swinging down to the ballroom floor.” If there wasn’t a reason for that not to be available (like the action taking place in the sewers instead), the environment supports it.
Love that you always bring up Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser. I think those stories were far more influential inspirations for D&D than most people realize. Ever play the Dragonsword of Lanhkmar head-to-head gamebook back in 1e?
6:35 - It's also worth noting that Lankhmar was modeled on Seville specifically because of its _actual_ thieves' guild, known as the Camorra. The time period you mentioned is a bit off, however, because in 1417, the city fathers got so fed up with them, that they rounded up everyone even suspected of being a _Camorrista,_ and cast them all out to sea. Most of them settled in Sicily and southern Italy, where they ended up either competing with or merging with existing Mafia families. This continued even after crime families emigrated to the United States centuries later, and it is no coincidence that numerous regional mob families in the States became known informally as a "Combine."
For as long as I've been chucking dice, I've always played a rogue or some version of it, even in MMORPGs. My most memorable one was Stump, a dwarf fighter/thief from 1st edition who, together with my friends' characters Root (gnome thief/illusionist) and Twig (halfling thief) formed the nucleus of a small gang of miscreants (with our henchmen) in some backwater city of a friend's campaign world. We basically created our own adventures, planning out capers, conning or mugging honest (and dishonest) folk, and tangling with other gangs and law enforcers--basically playing out the consequences of our misdeeds to their ultimate conclusions. To my recollection we never played a single module--everything was on the fly and we advanced that way from 1st to around 4th level at which point summer break was over and it was back to school. Good times.
Playing AD&D back in the day my first character was a thief who eventually retired at 9th level. At about level 4 or 5 I was getting frustrated with being a back-stab machine so our DM put me through a solo adventure. I had to break into a place and retrieve an item the group needed to advance the story. I put a lot of planning into that heist and had an amazing adventure. After that, I always had a belt like Prof DM describes and had a blast! Thieves forever! (Also, the miniature picking his nose about the 7:10 mark is awesome :D )
We were just discussing if anyone bothered to play name level PCs at all. One of my friends thinks name level was the "here is your retirement castle" hint that mabe it is time to play the next generation. Thieves became crime bosses and gang leaders I think. You started a criminal organisation with a bunch of little thief apprentices you could boss around and send on requests.
@@SusCalvin Back when name levels were a thing classes also advanced with different numbers of XP, and thieves/rogues levelled fastest of any of them iIRC. You could hit name level levels before most classes and almost no one would retire to play guildmaster while everyone else was still climbing toward a title.
@@SusCalvin I'm not sure you'd need to go even that modern - AD&D had some rules (including at least one whole softcover book) on PC strongholds and recruiting your own army/guild, etc. That sort of "interlude mechanics" stuff dates pretty far back, although it was pretty clunky early on.
I love the name rogue, it's just broader and allows for different character types other than the "burglar". The best way i recommend players to play a rogue is to be a tad more creative with the character. I've played thieves who are politicians, entertainers, priests (i had one player go through a whole campaign pretending to the party that he was a priest) . As stated in the video the rogue has more skills and that's where he shines. ALso emphasize to the DM that he should only allow certain rolls if u have skills prof or skill points in that skill. THe rogue hasn't changed, its the character that is good at all the little things outside of combat. Ive had players even ask me why they have sneak attack, because they use their rogue in completely different ways.
Lamentations of the Flame Princess went with "specialist". You get a handful of skill points and you decide what your specialist is good at. Make a bloke who is a detective, and really good at searching stuff. We had a guy who was an ace driver and could place the getaway van anywhere.
@@SusCalvin absolutely love that character name for this class I'd love to see it changed to this in future editions. I felt that there should only be four classes, four subclasses for each, and four specializations.
@@nathanmichael167 That's a lot of subclasses. The main ones in Lamentations are just magic-user, fighter, cleric, specialists. Plus the demihumans like elf, hobbit and dwarf. A fighter specializes in killing things with weapons, for example. You decide what weapons and tactics you want to use. You have no mechanical advantage with one weapon over the other, besides the usefulness of the weapon itself.
@@SusCalvin no it's no more than what's in there now. Think about each of the specializations but each class has now. It pretty much has the same system, but I think it makes it easier for players. early enough and they early versions of 5e that's kind of how it was there are only a handful of classes and those classes tree off into the current classes we have now. it's so much easier to teach somebody who wants to play a magic class well this is the magic class and these are the magic classes and this is how each one plays. then in the end they just go with the warlock cuz it has the fewest
@@nathanmichael167 My friends made me try 5e and there seems to be a lot of spellcaster subclasses. You can go for a monk with spell slot build or a thief with spell slots or a fighter with them. I'm getting a little tired of the builds myself. You shouldn't add more complexity than you need to. Teaching a player how magic-users work at level 1 in OSR is pretty simple. You have one spell prepared in your head, that you can pop out. Roll three random spell alternatives you know, we go through what they do together and then you decide which one you have ready each day.
Pathfinder 2E really did rogues justice and they can now really specialize in the different character class aspects. I've played every edition of DnD except 1st and I have to say Pathfinder 2E is my favorite. Good job on the videos lately, I've subscribed and am thoroughly enjoying!
As always thought provoking to improve our role-playing experience, great video thanks! I think the ultimate rogue in fiction is Jack Vance's Cudgel the Clever & Vance's Dying Earth is the progenitor of a lot of D&D concepts to boot.
Fun video! Really enjoyable- a great flashback to a character class which required more creativity rather than relying on feats and abilities- putting the play in Role Play !
Everyone has always been able to find a trap (1 in 6 or 2 in 6 for some classes on d6 in B/X and even AD&D). Only thieves have been able to disarm a found trap, though. Great video! Thanks for giving the thief some love.
Lamentations of the Flame Princess has an excellent system for the Thief called the Specialist. Its a simple d6 roll. The skills are Architecture(stonework, stone traps, secret trapdoors), Bushcraft(hunt, track outdoor survival), Climb, Languages, Search(secret doors), Sleight of Hand, Sneak Attack(backstab), Stealth( hide, move silently), and Tinker(find/remove traps, pick locks). Everyone starts with level 1. So they succeed on a 1 on a d6. But a 1st level Thief gets 4 dice to put anywhere, and 2 more dice at every level. So he could be a Pick Pocket and put a lot of dice in Sleight of hand. Or he could be an assassin and put dice into Stealth and Sneak attack. Or a Locksmith and put levels in Tinker and Architecture. Want a Ranger?- have your Thief put his dice in Bushcraft and Stealth. It even works for Demi-humans. Elves get an extra dice in Search. Dwarves get 2 extra dice in Architecture. Halflings get extra dice for Stealth outdoors. Great easy system.
Funny you mentioned living on interests. I once had a Rogue who had learned the spell Disguise Self which he used exclusively for the purposes of banking. He'd deposit his ill gotten gains under multiple personas and when one of his front came under suspicion he'd kill off that personality. I think he was caught onto four times? I mean he ended up dying in a spectacular fashion but man it was a rollercoaster until the end.
Oh, man. I love setting up neat little treats like this in room layout. There are some characters that don't dish out tons of damage. There are some people that don't make really combat-centric characters, and giving them the ability to use what they are good at in many situations feels good to players. A little of Improv's golden rule (yes, and) allows this if I forgot to make one. And the utility belt points back to how Batman seems to hold his own among a literal pantheon of superhumans without any powers of his own. Literal skill character by comparison. My mom was my first GM, and she ran a 2nd edition game wherein I was a gnome thief/illusionist. Cleverness was the only way I did not die when my greed for treasure got me in over my head. My mom raised me on the tales of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, and made me smile to hear their names spoken.
This is a GREAT VIDEO! Love all the ideas you give players on how to RP in a roleplaying game. Your comment early on in the video about how everyone has thief abilities now and make thieves kind of pointless strengthens my resolve to not play any DhasbroD editions, I and my players really like having proficies on top of proficiencies ala 2nd edition, an idea first toyed with in 1st edition unearthed arcana.
I always had a batbelt. Theives were like the old school Batman, they never jumped into the fray without the consideration of surroundings. They always had a plan. They knew were the front and back door was to every tavern. They were the detectives of the story. They were the one's sort of putting things together, playing in the shadows, and never really attracting attention. They should be the ones with the most knowledge about the Arch, as they usually stumble upon clues before everybody else. They were also horribly hated. Some thieves didn't share that arc information, which led to fights all the time, as they would knock off characters they didn't like -- Not nice. They also died a lot because they took the biggest risks with scouting. Honestly, DND took a really cool batman style 1940's character and turned him into the Dark Knight character, no detective work, just beat them up with your awsome fighting skills. It's also why the older generation plays them differently. Great Video!
I made Rogues "something" again with a few homebrew rules: 1- If not proficient in something, you don't just "not get the prof bonus" but you roll with disadvantage if not proficient. So, proficiencies really mean something in my game...for all the classes. 2- Disarming traps etc uses the Sleight of Hand skill not just Dex. Makes that skill more specific and meaningful for rogues. 3- Thieves' Tools, if not proficient in them, roll to use them with disadvantage in all circumstances. (see #1). These minor tweaks have really helped my players focus on their class's "focus" instead of trying to metagame or metabuild a character that can do everything.
Try Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories, or many of the Conan stories -- the stuff from Appendix N of the first DM Guide. Also, watch video documentaries on mafia and gangs. You can learn a lot about how criminals operate -- the secrecy, their rules, enforcing territory, what happens when a deal goes bad, etc.
Awesome Dungeon Craft! I never made that label jump to rogue; thief is much better! Although, the assassin class was one that really might just have been a specialized thief skill. Like you stated, if you're playing a rogue, you have to really 'characterize' what you're doing and the DM plays a big role in this. For a group where I was a player near Fort Knox, Kentucky, we had a drow rogue who the player (Gene) just played it perfectly; yeah, he was like a dark elf but out of Dickens! Always using and developing what I thought of as AD&D 'thief' skills, it made the rest of us depend on his abilities. I was the lone mage in the group and he once assassinated an evil NPC that I was in a conversation with. Basically, I was just engaging with this NPC and trying to stall her. Our rogue knew EXACTLY what to do and snuck around and...well, he 'took out' the NPC. A good old fashioned thief in the group is awesome. If you're a DM, what kind of interactions might take place with the local guild is limitless!
Low Fantasy Gaming by Pickpocket Press has a great take in the Thief/ Rogue. The regular Thief skills, backstab, etc and also a bonus for going after injured or stunned targets. Also options for choking dust, flash powder, glue pot, hidden blade, smoke bomb, whip/ trip wire, blind sense, cat's grace/acrobatics, bonus to initiative/ reflexes, bonus to avoid magical detection or reading thoughts. LFG is a great game all around
Based on your recommendation I'm reading Book #2 in the Fafhrd and The Grey Mouser. They are such great books! You can really see where WFRP and D&D borrowed from these stories. Thank you!
This is a spectacular video! So much amazing insight about an under utilized class. Please do more of these. Pretty please. Would love to see one about wizards.
Most of the contacts for the thi... rogue went to the Criminal background in 5E. Once I had a graverobber Diviner Wizard with Criminal background. The player used the contacts very well, even sold a fly-themed Staff of Swarmin Insects because "I hate flies". This happened around level 6 and he carried a non-magical replica, so the party tought that he still has the staff. The always wondered where did he get the money to found his brothel. :) I think we can conclude that this is more of a mindset than class power. Also, Thieves Cant is a powerful tool to have a player feel like a rogue/thief. My daughter is playing a half-orc rogue (thief subclass) and I constantly tell her what signs she sees that other characters don't. For example, if an inn is open for rogues as a safe place or a bartender is a contact. This is one aspect that should be strengthened by the DM, exspecially for new players. Making use of this class feature can take the focus from the sneak attack.
I tend to play neutral good Thieves in AD&D when I'm not Dm'ing . I play them sort if like an Indiana Jones character who doesn't steal from normal folks but use his abilities to seeks out lost treasures and thwarts the bad guys when needed . They never have to worry about getting caught doing something bad because they don't steal while in civilized locations . I usually keep a small sack of flour just in case I run into invisible opponents , I throw it up at the ceiling to break it causing the flour to coat just about every thing in the room ( just make sure there are no lit torches or it becomes a fireball lol )
The Lies of Locke Lamora is a great recommendation. If you like it, the Pathfinder Adventure Path - Curse of the Crimson Throne - borrows from in heavily in places. And is a great campaign in general.
*@Dungeon Craft* yes, the way you describe playing a thief in AD&D, that is what i try to encourage my players to do. Mathematically, it is very difficult for a thief to reliably use his abilities, especially when things go wrong. So when a thief in my AD&D game declares an action involving thief skills, i don't automatically call for a skill check. No, the better she engages in role playing -convincing me of how she avoids detection, the better her odds are of succeeding! In AD&D i do not like to refer to that skill chart until things go wrong. For feats of normal difficulty that chart is more like skill saving throws that other classes don't get. However, if the thief is trying to do something exceptionally difficult; something that other classes would just have no chance at doing ever -then sure, move straight to the skill chart & roll the dice. I know that may not be rules as written, and it is very subjective, but it is a compromise i make for the thieves in my games to encourage them not to be afraid to use their abilities, participate, and just role-play. In a sense, the thief really has to immerse and engage in her surroundings more than most.
The Lies of Locke Lamora is really good... I've read books 2 and 3 as well, they're pretty good, but can't hold up to book 1. If you haven't read it yet, and don't want to start on a series, but just want to read one kick ass fantasy book, you can perfectly just read book 1. The story is pretty self contained.
My first real foray outside of 5e was Black Hack 2e, and I played a thief -- mainly because I liked rogues in 5e, because melee fighters bored me in 5e, and because I was not yet sold on the OSR way of doing spellcasting. I had sooooooooooo much fun with my thief. Because OSR encourages cautious play, my thief was almost always the first one to go and check out what's behind that corner, or what that strange noise is, and etc. In short, my thief was almost always in the middle of the action, always pushing the story forward. Best of all, whenever my thief had to make a dice roll for all that sneaking about, it was made with an advantage because he was a thief! I never felt like a bigger star in a campaign, and it was great!! I like rogues in 5e because the class affords me so many options to do outside of combat. OSR thieves turn that up to 11.
@Daniel DeFazio I was about to say... not a great idea to post two videos at the same time because I can't watch both at once for youtube algorithms engagement purposes.
movie: Outside of the LOTRs movies Ladyhawke is simply the best Fantasy movie. It is takes itself seriously and feels real. You have the wise old cleric, the brave and noble knight, the funny/religious rogue and Michelle Pfeiffer(she is absolutely stunning in her first scene... takes Gaston's breath away as well as any hetro-male). The movie inspired my greatest Rogues ever as well as my favorite Paladin.
"There is no D&D skill for ventriloquism or puppetry" Only in the earliest editions, and even there it would just be a Dex and/or Cha check. In 5e that's Performance. In d20 it's either Performance or Profession (Puppeteer) with a bonus if you actually have both. Even 2nd edition had proficiencies for Ventriloquism, Crowd Working, and Voice Mimicry. In 4E it's really just Bluff with a bonus for the props and superstitions, although I'd allow Thievery as well myself.
Specialists in Lamentations of the Flame Princess went with the skill monkey idea. They don't have a special skill system though, everyone has the same x-in-6 skill chance. But most ordinary chumps start and stay at 1-in-6 while a specialist can add more points into their skills. At best you could have a variant where you add attribute mod, a Str +2 fighter gets 3-in-6 to vandalize a door. It's something but not like a specialist that can keep adding skill points to 5- or 6-in-6 chances.
"WHAT are we, some charitable institution? We're THIEVES!" - a dedicated Thief who swallows the best small gems so he doesn't have to split them with the party
Another resource for inspiration I like comes from the AD&D Oriental Adventures book with the way it handles the Ninja class. Players can't just be Ninjas, they have to have a cover story they're playing as well. No town is found to let an avowed Thief into their walls, so what does the Thief say they are? Also, Cugel from Jack Vance's Dying Earth books.
A few things I have to say about rogues (from a 5e perspective): - They're the only class that gets expertise (2x proficiency). This means you can have your niche that nobody can do as well as you do. At level 5 you can have +10 stealth without really sweating a tear. - Lock picking is just pretty universally a thing you only do with thieves tools. (Only rogues can get the proficiency). - Thieves are a subclass of rogue. Meaning rogues aren't limited to being thieves, therefore naming them thieves would be counterintuitive. They can also be assassins, scouts, masterminds, inquisitors (I admit that's a weird name for a rogue subclass) or arcane tricksters.
Very interesting as usual, I'll share this video with my one of my player :) Would be nice to have a whole serie on every class and have your point of view. Cheers !
I think it's a shame that these class videos get so few views. I would like a fighters video. How many types of Man-at-arms are there and what specific warrior class or flavor inspired D&D fighters. Was it Conan only? What are some fighter social etiquette or specific knowledge of war, weapons, armor, or history that a fighter would have that other class might not? What were some types of warrior cultures? How are fighters conditioned physically and mentally? Where do fighters come from? How is it that all fighters can use all weapons and armor? What's the deal with warrior classes that fought naked or barely clothed?
The Thief skills in Basic and Advanced D&D were the only _mechanically enforced_ skills. It was expected everyone could climb, any player who told the DM how his character was sneaking around and dressed appropriately in things other than clanking armor could sneak, etc. - Thief Skills were an ability to go over and above that, the players being expected to roleplay their thieves being sneaky, but having % chances to for example _Climb Sheer Surfaces_ when attempting to climb a surface without proper hand holds or _Hide In Shadows_ as in actually turning invisible while in a shadow rather than just being difficult to see because it's dark. This is why these abilities had low % chances at low levels, and people not understanding (and at times, the rules not clearly explaining) this lead to a lot of people thinking A) D&D characters whose class isn't Thief _can't_ do the mundane versions of these feats and B) D&D thieves _suck_ compared to real world stealth and infiltration experts.
The simple way is "There is a chandelier on 2-in-6". Or you say no, 'cause why would the little guard bunk room have a chandelier. But that is the little details you assume players will ask. You may know there is a chandelier, but not bother to tell it unless a player asks.
If you need role playing ideas for your rogue, pick up the second edition The Complete Thieves's Handbook. Even without the thieves kits, there are plenty of ideas for different types of rogues you can play, and different role playing ideas for each one.
Anyone looking to play a Rogue needs to read Thieves World and Tales from the Vulgar Unicorn. I would also suggest movies like the original “adventures of Robin Hood” and
Great video! Very insightful that without a monopoly on the thief skills, rogues don't have quite the same importance, I'd never thought of that. By the way, Fafhrd is pronounced "Faf-herd"! That is one of my favorite short stories--have you ever seen the Mike Mignola graphic novel? It's fantastic.
That was great! I would rather play rogues and die again and again then play it safe.The rogue lends itself to a more spontaneous creative style of play. The tricky bit is learning not to be a one man scouting show (your friends are there to play too).
I've been slowly working on a modern day D&D system kinda like how V:tM mirrors V:tDA. I've taken to making "Roguemen" who use patois as their thieves' cant. Methinks it'll work p well. Tryin' to make fighters work in a modern day is harder w/o just makin' them all into Daredevil, but I'm getting there methinks...
I would like to see some mechanical incentive to "waste" money as a D&D character. Maybe some kind of morale bonus you can buy or some kind of ongoing track of stress you have to reduce (similar to the Darkest Dungeon game). I always liked the idea of PC characters living it up with all kind of wasteful wealth, instead of the ridiculously miserly PCs that the current rules encourage.
Some OSR games have downtime activities that due exactly that. Throwing a party or living the high life between crawls gets you mechanical benefits in exchange for your gold, as it should. Hate miser PCs.
Older editions give the majority of exp for find gold. I’ve seen OSR games only award that exp after you spend that gold. I think a system like that would do the trick.
REQUEST: Can you make a video on how capable high level badguy clerics and wizards are with their resources and spells? How they can use each information spell to keep tabs and track enemies to their cause? How likely or when the players get on their radar and how often and how much these bad guys can spy, scry, track players activities? In my Greyhawk campaign the 12 lvl Cleric and Magic User has 6th lvl spells at their disposal and I want to figure out when and how they react to players activities and what they can do about the players.
5:25 This is just my opinion, but I guess "Performance" skill could be used when rolling to determine if the "floating skull"-act is successful or not.
Thieves in AD&D had d6HP per level. The backstab ability was also more limited than the modern era. Indiana Jones is a Thief in the 1st edition style There was an expectation that Players thought about their characters more.
My name is Mihail Westerly. I used to be a Rogue with the Spy-background until..... ("HALT RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!.") When your burned you've got nothing. No gold, no enchanted gear, no XP. You're stuck in whatever city they decide to dump you in. ("Where am I?")...("Waterdeep"). You do whatever work comes your way. You rely on anyone who's still talking to you: A Barbarian ex-girlfriend. ("Should we slay them?") An old Ranger friend who used to inform on you to the Order of the Gauntlet. ("You know Rogues, bunch of bitchy little girls.") Family too. ("Hey is that your mom again?") If you're desperate. ("Someone needs your help, Mihail.") And a down and out Bard you met along the way. ("That how we do it people"). Bottom line as long as your burned your not going anywhere.
You showed the thief with the extra long arm from the 1e book! seriously take another look at that arm...@ 1:22. for 30 years i have wondered about that picture
I love the concept of leading the DM. I’m working on it as an actual game mechanic in my homebrew. The idea is that characters with tactical situational abilities actually narrate parts of the environment on their successes.
No one wants to narrate every detail of every room, and players can fill in the blanks with plausible descriptions. So, the swashbuckler trapped by the guards running up the stairs in the ballroom doesn’t really ask about the chandelier; he succeeds in his Swashbuckling skill and simply says, “I grab the rope anchoring the chandelier and cut it loose, swinging down to the ballroom floor.” If there wasn’t a reason for that not to be available (like the action taking place in the sewers instead), the environment supports it.
Faf-herd! The man himself explained how to pronounce his name to the Gray Mouser on the night this legendary partnership was formed
Love that you always bring up Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser. I think those stories were far more influential inspirations for D&D than most people realize. Ever play the Dragonsword of Lanhkmar head-to-head gamebook back in 1e?
No. Sorry. I'm reviewing two games: Black Sword Hack and Mazes that are VERY Lieber influenced.
6:35 - It's also worth noting that Lankhmar was modeled on Seville specifically because of its _actual_ thieves' guild, known as the Camorra. The time period you mentioned is a bit off, however, because in 1417, the city fathers got so fed up with them, that they rounded up everyone even suspected of being a _Camorrista,_ and cast them all out to sea.
Most of them settled in Sicily and southern Italy, where they ended up either competing with or merging with existing Mafia families. This continued even after crime families emigrated to the United States centuries later, and it is no coincidence that numerous regional mob families in the States became known informally as a "Combine."
For as long as I've been chucking dice, I've always played a rogue or some version of it, even in MMORPGs. My most memorable one was Stump, a dwarf fighter/thief from 1st edition who, together with my friends' characters Root (gnome thief/illusionist) and Twig (halfling thief) formed the nucleus of a small gang of miscreants (with our henchmen) in some backwater city of a friend's campaign world. We basically created our own adventures, planning out capers, conning or mugging honest (and dishonest) folk, and tangling with other gangs and law enforcers--basically playing out the consequences of our misdeeds to their ultimate conclusions. To my recollection we never played a single module--everything was on the fly and we advanced that way from 1st to around 4th level at which point summer break was over and it was back to school. Good times.
Happy 50th Birthday, Professor Dungeonmaster!
Playing AD&D back in the day my first character was a thief who eventually retired at 9th level. At about level 4 or 5 I was getting frustrated with being a back-stab machine so our DM put me through a solo adventure. I had to break into a place and retrieve an item the group needed to advance the story. I put a lot of planning into that heist and had an amazing adventure.
After that, I always had a belt like Prof DM describes and had a blast! Thieves forever!
(Also, the miniature picking his nose about the 7:10 mark is awesome :D )
We were just discussing if anyone bothered to play name level PCs at all. One of my friends thinks name level was the "here is your retirement castle" hint that mabe it is time to play the next generation.
Thieves became crime bosses and gang leaders I think. You started a criminal organisation with a bunch of little thief apprentices you could boss around and send on requests.
@@SusCalvin Back when name levels were a thing classes also advanced with different numbers of XP, and thieves/rogues levelled fastest of any of them iIRC. You could hit name level levels before most classes and almost no one would retire to play guildmaster while everyone else was still climbing toward a title.
@@richmcgee434 That's when you break out the Birthright rules?
@@SusCalvin I'm not sure you'd need to go even that modern - AD&D had some rules (including at least one whole softcover book) on PC strongholds and recruiting your own army/guild, etc. That sort of "interlude mechanics" stuff dates pretty far back, although it was pretty clunky early on.
4:52 That sounds like the most fun character to play. I think you've convinced me to play a rogue in the next game I'm a player in.
Cool! Thanks for watching one of my better videos, not the clickbait crap I'm forced to make so my channel doesn't die.
This channel has stole my heart, no roll needed.
I love the name rogue, it's just broader and allows for different character types other than the "burglar". The best way i recommend players to play a rogue is to be a tad more creative with the character. I've played thieves who are politicians, entertainers, priests (i had one player go through a whole campaign pretending to the party that he was a priest) . As stated in the video the rogue has more skills and that's where he shines.
ALso emphasize to the DM that he should only allow certain rolls if u have skills prof or skill points in that skill.
THe rogue hasn't changed, its the character that is good at all the little things outside of combat. Ive had players even ask me why they have sneak attack, because they use their rogue in completely different ways.
Lamentations of the Flame Princess went with "specialist". You get a handful of skill points and you decide what your specialist is good at. Make a bloke who is a detective, and really good at searching stuff. We had a guy who was an ace driver and could place the getaway van anywhere.
@@SusCalvin absolutely love that character name for this class I'd love to see it changed to this in future editions. I felt that there should only be four classes, four subclasses for each, and four specializations.
@@nathanmichael167 That's a lot of subclasses. The main ones in Lamentations are just magic-user, fighter, cleric, specialists. Plus the demihumans like elf, hobbit and dwarf.
A fighter specializes in killing things with weapons, for example. You decide what weapons and tactics you want to use. You have no mechanical advantage with one weapon over the other, besides the usefulness of the weapon itself.
@@SusCalvin no it's no more than what's in there now. Think about each of the specializations but each class has now. It pretty much has the same system, but I think it makes it easier for players. early enough and they early versions of 5e that's kind of how it was there are only a handful of classes and those classes tree off into the current classes we have now.
it's so much easier to teach somebody who wants to play a magic class well this is the magic class and these are the magic classes and this is how each one plays. then in the end they just go with the warlock cuz it has the fewest
@@nathanmichael167 My friends made me try 5e and there seems to be a lot of spellcaster subclasses. You can go for a monk with spell slot build or a thief with spell slots or a fighter with them. I'm getting a little tired of the builds myself. You shouldn't add more complexity than you need to.
Teaching a player how magic-users work at level 1 in OSR is pretty simple. You have one spell prepared in your head, that you can pop out. Roll three random spell alternatives you know, we go through what they do together and then you decide which one you have ready each day.
Excellent video as always. They will always be "thieves" to me. Thanks for the book recommendations, I will try and read a few. Cheers!!
I really appreciate that you number your episodes. Pretty awesome and way easier to help me find videos I haven't watched yet
Pathfinder 2E really did rogues justice and they can now really specialize in the different character class aspects. I've played every edition of DnD except 1st and I have to say Pathfinder 2E is my favorite. Good job on the videos lately, I've subscribed and am thoroughly enjoying!
As always thought provoking to improve our role-playing experience, great video thanks! I think the ultimate rogue in fiction is Jack Vance's Cudgel the Clever & Vance's Dying Earth is the progenitor of a lot of D&D concepts to boot.
Thanks for maintaining your Thursday video in spite of the pandemic! Always look forward to these. :)
Two videos today? It's like you sneak attacked my heart.
Roll for swooning!
Conan the barbarian was thief also. Tower of the Elephant. Great video! Blessings!
Excellent. Thieves have always been the most fun and exciting to play and so few players seem to get them right. Great video.
Fun video! Really enjoyable- a great flashback to a character class which required more creativity rather than relying on feats and abilities- putting the play in Role Play !
My favorite class too! I will also second Scott Lynch's wonderful tales. Great reads indeed!
2 in one day ?
SWEET
They will always be thieves to me
Me too
Ronnie J Dio yup
I do like the acrobat tho- the tv show gave me that one
@@twilightgardenspresentatio6384 well ...
No comment
You have no idea of how many times I call them "thieves" in taping.
Everyone has always been able to find a trap (1 in 6 or 2 in 6 for some classes on d6 in B/X and even AD&D). Only thieves have been able to disarm a found trap, though. Great video! Thanks for giving the thief some love.
Lamentations of the Flame Princess has an excellent system for the Thief called the Specialist. Its a simple d6 roll. The skills are Architecture(stonework, stone traps, secret trapdoors), Bushcraft(hunt, track outdoor survival), Climb, Languages, Search(secret doors), Sleight of Hand, Sneak Attack(backstab), Stealth( hide, move silently), and Tinker(find/remove traps, pick locks). Everyone starts with level 1. So they succeed on a 1 on a d6. But a 1st level Thief gets 4 dice to put anywhere, and 2 more dice at every level. So he could be a Pick Pocket and put a lot of dice in Sleight of hand. Or he could be an assassin and put dice into Stealth and Sneak attack. Or a Locksmith and put levels in Tinker and Architecture. Want a Ranger?- have your Thief put his dice in Bushcraft and Stealth. It even works for Demi-humans. Elves get an extra dice in Search. Dwarves get 2 extra dice in Architecture. Halflings get extra dice for Stealth outdoors. Great easy system.
Funny you mentioned living on interests. I once had a Rogue who had learned the spell Disguise Self which he used exclusively for the purposes of banking. He'd deposit his ill gotten gains under multiple personas and when one of his front came under suspicion he'd kill off that personality. I think he was caught onto four times? I mean he ended up dying in a spectacular fashion but man it was a rollercoaster until the end.
Oh, man. I love setting up neat little treats like this in room layout. There are some characters that don't dish out tons of damage. There are some people that don't make really combat-centric characters, and giving them the ability to use what they are good at in many situations feels good to players. A little of Improv's golden rule (yes, and) allows this if I forgot to make one. And the utility belt points back to how Batman seems to hold his own among a literal pantheon of superhumans without any powers of his own. Literal skill character by comparison.
My mom was my first GM, and she ran a 2nd edition game wherein I was a gnome thief/illusionist. Cleverness was the only way I did not die when my greed for treasure got me in over my head. My mom raised me on the tales of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, and made me smile to hear their names spoken.
Double feature! Nice. Loved this one as well.
This is a GREAT VIDEO! Love all the ideas you give players on how to RP in a roleplaying game. Your comment early on in the video about how everyone has thief abilities now and make thieves kind of pointless strengthens my resolve to not play any DhasbroD editions, I and my players really like having proficies on top of proficiencies ala 2nd edition, an idea first toyed with in 1st edition unearthed arcana.
I always had a batbelt. Theives were like the old school Batman, they never jumped into the fray without the consideration of surroundings. They always had a plan. They knew were the front and back door was to every tavern. They were the detectives of the story. They were the one's sort of putting things together, playing in the shadows, and never really attracting attention. They should be the ones with the most knowledge about the Arch, as they usually stumble upon clues before everybody else. They were also horribly hated. Some thieves didn't share that arc information, which led to fights all the time, as they would knock off characters they didn't like -- Not nice. They also died a lot because they took the biggest risks with scouting. Honestly, DND took a really cool batman style 1940's character and turned him into the Dark Knight character, no detective work, just beat them up with your awsome fighting skills. It's also why the older generation plays them differently. Great Video!
I made Rogues "something" again with a few homebrew rules:
1- If not proficient in something, you don't just "not get the prof bonus" but you roll with disadvantage if not proficient. So, proficiencies really mean something in my game...for all the classes.
2- Disarming traps etc uses the Sleight of Hand skill not just Dex. Makes that skill more specific and meaningful for rogues.
3- Thieves' Tools, if not proficient in them, roll to use them with disadvantage in all circumstances. (see #1).
These minor tweaks have really helped my players focus on their class's "focus" instead of trying to metagame or metabuild a character that can do everything.
Disarming traps should be a thieves tools thing, or alternatively smith's tools.
The point two is how you should have done it in the first place and isn't homebrew. (If not having it be thieves tools thing).
Read The Anubis Gates by Tim Powers as an interesting source of how a thieves guild- warped by dark magic, could operate.
Thanks for the video!
Thanks for the reference!
Try Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories, or many of the Conan stories -- the stuff from Appendix N of the first DM Guide. Also, watch video documentaries on mafia and gangs. You can learn a lot about how criminals operate -- the secrecy, their rules, enforcing territory, what happens when a deal goes bad, etc.
Holy cow two episodes in one day it like Chrisity fucking Christmas.
Awesome Dungeon Craft! I never made that label jump to rogue; thief is much better! Although, the assassin class was one that really might just have been a specialized thief skill. Like you stated, if you're playing a rogue, you have to really 'characterize' what you're doing and the DM plays a big role in this. For a group where I was a player near Fort Knox, Kentucky, we had a drow rogue who the player (Gene) just played it perfectly; yeah, he was like a dark elf but out of Dickens! Always using and developing what I thought of as AD&D 'thief' skills, it made the rest of us depend on his abilities. I was the lone mage in the group and he once assassinated an evil NPC that I was in a conversation with. Basically, I was just engaging with this NPC and trying to stall her. Our rogue knew EXACTLY what to do and snuck around and...well, he 'took out' the NPC. A good old fashioned thief in the group is awesome. If you're a DM, what kind of interactions might take place with the local guild is limitless!
Low Fantasy Gaming by Pickpocket Press has a great take in the Thief/ Rogue. The regular Thief skills, backstab, etc and also a bonus for going after injured or stunned targets. Also options for choking dust, flash powder, glue pot, hidden blade, smoke bomb, whip/ trip wire, blind sense, cat's grace/acrobatics, bonus to initiative/ reflexes, bonus to avoid magical detection or reading thoughts. LFG is a great game all around
Based on your recommendation I'm reading Book #2 in the Fafhrd and The Grey Mouser. They are such great books! You can really see where WFRP and D&D borrowed from these stories. Thank you!
This is a spectacular video! So much amazing insight about an under utilized class. Please do more of these. Pretty please. Would love to see one about wizards.
Two new vids on the same day. What a rare treat.
“Leading” the narration is a fantastic and important part of group storytelling
I'm a simple man, I see a new video from Dungeon Craft and I hit that like button.
Wow, just saw that moon and started laughing! That was awesome and unexpected! I like rogues/thieves too, one of my favorites.
Most of the contacts for the thi... rogue went to the Criminal background in 5E. Once I had a graverobber Diviner Wizard with Criminal background. The player used the contacts very well, even sold a fly-themed Staff of Swarmin Insects because "I hate flies". This happened around level 6 and he carried a non-magical replica, so the party tought that he still has the staff. The always wondered where did he get the money to found his brothel. :) I think we can conclude that this is more of a mindset than class power.
Also, Thieves Cant is a powerful tool to have a player feel like a rogue/thief. My daughter is playing a half-orc rogue (thief subclass) and I constantly tell her what signs she sees that other characters don't. For example, if an inn is open for rogues as a safe place or a bartender is a contact. This is one aspect that should be strengthened by the DM, exspecially for new players. Making use of this class feature can take the focus from the sneak attack.
I tend to play neutral good Thieves in AD&D when I'm not Dm'ing .
I play them sort if like an Indiana Jones character who doesn't steal from normal folks but use his abilities to seeks out lost treasures and thwarts the bad guys when needed .
They never have to worry about getting caught doing something bad because they don't steal while in civilized locations .
I usually keep a small sack of flour just in case I run into invisible opponents , I throw it up at the ceiling to break it causing the flour to coat just about every thing in the room ( just make sure there are no lit torches or it becomes a fireball lol )
The Lies of Locke Lamora is a great recommendation. If you like it, the Pathfinder Adventure Path - Curse of the Crimson Throne - borrows from in heavily in places. And is a great campaign in general.
Thanks for the tip about the Master Thief, had not read of it before. It's gold!
The cloud of hate is one of my favorite Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories. Insanely entertaining and hilarious. The world building in it is amazing.
*@Dungeon Craft* yes, the way you describe playing a thief in AD&D, that is what i try to encourage my players to do. Mathematically, it is very difficult for a thief to reliably use his abilities, especially when things go wrong. So when a thief in my AD&D game declares an action involving thief skills, i don't automatically call for a skill check. No, the better she engages in role playing -convincing me of how she avoids detection, the better her odds are of succeeding! In AD&D i do not like to refer to that skill chart until things go wrong. For feats of normal difficulty that chart is more like skill saving throws that other classes don't get. However, if the thief is trying to do something exceptionally difficult; something that other classes would just have no chance at doing ever -then sure, move straight to the skill chart & roll the dice. I know that may not be rules as written, and it is very subjective, but it is a compromise i make for the thieves in my games to encourage them not to be afraid to use their abilities, participate, and just role-play. In a sense, the thief really has to immerse and engage in her surroundings more than most.
Thief! Thank you I've been wanting this for awhile. All the basic classes are done now. 😀
The Lies of Locke Lamora is really good... I've read books 2 and 3 as well, they're pretty good, but can't hold up to book 1.
If you haven't read it yet, and don't want to start on a series, but just want to read one kick ass fantasy book, you can perfectly just read book 1. The story is pretty self contained.
My first real foray outside of 5e was Black Hack 2e, and I played a thief -- mainly because I liked rogues in 5e, because melee fighters bored me in 5e, and because I was not yet sold on the OSR way of doing spellcasting. I had sooooooooooo much fun with my thief. Because OSR encourages cautious play, my thief was almost always the first one to go and check out what's behind that corner, or what that strange noise is, and etc. In short, my thief was almost always in the middle of the action, always pushing the story forward. Best of all, whenever my thief had to make a dice roll for all that sneaking about, it was made with an advantage because he was a thief! I never felt like a bigger star in a campaign, and it was great!!
I like rogues in 5e because the class affords me so many options to do outside of combat. OSR thieves turn that up to 11.
Hey hey! Love it, as always. Great stuff!
ROGUE PHILOSOPHY: "Live today as your last day... because one day you'll be right."
MY PHILOSOPHY: "But it's raining out side!"
Two videos no waiting!
@Daniel DeFazio I was about to say... not a great idea to post two videos at the same time because I can't watch both at once for youtube algorithms engagement purposes.
movie: Outside of the LOTRs movies Ladyhawke is simply the best Fantasy movie. It is takes itself seriously and feels real. You have the wise old cleric, the brave and noble knight, the funny/religious rogue and Michelle Pfeiffer(she is absolutely stunning in her first scene... takes Gaston's breath away as well as any hetro-male). The movie inspired my greatest Rogues ever as well as my favorite Paladin.
"There is no D&D skill for ventriloquism or puppetry" Only in the earliest editions, and even there it would just be a Dex and/or Cha check. In 5e that's Performance. In d20 it's either Performance or Profession (Puppeteer) with a bonus if you actually have both. Even 2nd edition had proficiencies for Ventriloquism, Crowd Working, and Voice Mimicry. In 4E it's really just Bluff with a bonus for the props and superstitions, although I'd allow Thievery as well myself.
I love the books you used as references for an organization. I'm kind of stuck with a Godfather movie or the Soprano's for ideas.
Great episode as usual AND thanks for the 2 for 1!
so many good ideas here love this
Specialists in Lamentations of the Flame Princess went with the skill monkey idea. They don't have a special skill system though, everyone has the same x-in-6 skill chance. But most ordinary chumps start and stay at 1-in-6 while a specialist can add more points into their skills. At best you could have a variant where you add attribute mod, a Str +2 fighter gets 3-in-6 to vandalize a door. It's something but not like a specialist that can keep adding skill points to 5- or 6-in-6 chances.
"WHAT are we, some charitable institution? We're THIEVES!"
- a dedicated Thief who swallows the best small gems so he doesn't have to split them with the party
Can’t believe you didn’t include The Great Train Robbery by Michael Critchton
Another good one Professor. Great reading list.
Another resource for inspiration I like comes from the AD&D Oriental Adventures book with the way it handles the Ninja class. Players can't just be Ninjas, they have to have a cover story they're playing as well. No town is found to let an avowed Thief into their walls, so what does the Thief say they are?
Also, Cugel from Jack Vance's Dying Earth books.
A few things I have to say about rogues (from a 5e perspective):
- They're the only class that gets expertise (2x proficiency). This means you can have your niche that nobody can do as well as you do. At level 5 you can have +10 stealth without really sweating a tear.
- Lock picking is just pretty universally a thing you only do with thieves tools. (Only rogues can get the proficiency).
- Thieves are a subclass of rogue. Meaning rogues aren't limited to being thieves, therefore naming them thieves would be counterintuitive. They can also be assassins, scouts, masterminds, inquisitors (I admit that's a weird name for a rogue subclass) or arcane tricksters.
Nice! I just made a rogue for an upcoming game! I'll try to use some of these ideas! Thanks Prof!
My rogue is/was a military scout, small and very dexterous.
From a wealthy background he had little need to dabble in thievery.
Excellent, as always
Very interesting as usual, I'll share this video with my one of my player :) Would be nice to have a whole serie on every class and have your point of view. Cheers !
Caltrops for fleeing downhill.
Ball bearings for fleeing uphill.
Why didn't I think of that before?!?
wizards of the goats should hire you
I think it's a shame that these class videos get so few views. I would like a fighters video. How many types of Man-at-arms are there and what specific warrior class or flavor inspired D&D fighters. Was it Conan only? What are some fighter social etiquette or specific knowledge of war, weapons, armor, or history that a fighter would have that other class might not? What were some types of warrior cultures? How are fighters conditioned physically and mentally? Where do fighters come from? How is it that all fighters can use all weapons and armor? What's the deal with warrior classes that fought naked or barely clothed?
Great video! Thanks again!
The Thief skills in Basic and Advanced D&D were the only _mechanically enforced_ skills. It was expected everyone could climb, any player who told the DM how his character was sneaking around and dressed appropriately in things other than clanking armor could sneak, etc. - Thief Skills were an ability to go over and above that, the players being expected to roleplay their thieves being sneaky, but having % chances to for example _Climb Sheer Surfaces_ when attempting to climb a surface without proper hand holds or _Hide In Shadows_ as in actually turning invisible while in a shadow rather than just being difficult to see because it's dark. This is why these abilities had low % chances at low levels, and people not understanding (and at times, the rules not clearly explaining) this lead to a lot of people thinking A) D&D characters whose class isn't Thief _can't_ do the mundane versions of these feats and B) D&D thieves _suck_ compared to real world stealth and infiltration experts.
"leading the DM" are you paying attention Ray?
The simple way is "There is a chandelier on 2-in-6". Or you say no, 'cause why would the little guard bunk room have a chandelier.
But that is the little details you assume players will ask. You may know there is a chandelier, but not bother to tell it unless a player asks.
Saga of Old City is one of my favorite thieves tales! By Gary Gygax himself!
I remember that book. I liked it as well.
Thanks for the advice.
And now I want to play as a rogue.
If you need role playing ideas for your rogue, pick up the second edition The Complete Thieves's Handbook. Even without the thieves kits, there are plenty of ideas for different types of rogues you can play, and different role playing ideas for each one.
im a Thief not some fancy pants Rogue dandy damn it!
Anyone looking to play a Rogue needs to read Thieves World and Tales from the Vulgar Unicorn.
I would also suggest movies like the original “adventures of Robin Hood” and
And wasn’t finished...The Thief of Baghdad, the Golden Blade, The Hobbit, the Adventures of Don Juan, House of the flying knives.
Thieves' World was a lot of fun.
yeah, I think they even editted the word "Thief" out of the D&D cartoon opening... ironically Sheila was pretty rogue like and never pickpocketted.
Love me some Lankhmar!
Great video! Very insightful that without a monopoly on the thief skills, rogues don't have quite the same importance, I'd never thought of that. By the way, Fafhrd is pronounced "Faf-herd"! That is one of my favorite short stories--have you ever seen the Mike Mignola graphic novel? It's fantastic.
Oh whoops, I guess you have. Should have waited for the last few minutes before posting...
Two vids in one day, my man
Artist trapped in Beijing here.
With all that's going on-your channel's a cool breeze to my mind.
(You a Ring des Nibelungen fan, by any chance?)
That was great!
I would rather play rogues and die again and again then play it safe.The rogue lends itself to a more spontaneous creative style of play. The tricky bit is learning not to be a one man scouting show (your friends are there to play too).
Two in one Day?!
Sweet...
@Daniel DeFazio "Happy Accidents" ;-)
I've been slowly working on a modern day D&D system kinda like how V:tM mirrors V:tDA. I've taken to making "Roguemen" who use patois as their thieves' cant. Methinks it'll work p well. Tryin' to make fighters work in a modern day is harder w/o just makin' them all into Daredevil, but I'm getting there methinks...
Sounds like I'd love to play DnD with/DM Professor's Rougue.
I would like to see some mechanical incentive to "waste" money as a D&D character. Maybe some kind of morale bonus you can buy or some kind of ongoing track of stress you have to reduce (similar to the Darkest Dungeon game). I always liked the idea of PC characters living it up with all kind of wasteful wealth, instead of the ridiculously miserly PCs that the current rules encourage.
Some OSR games have downtime activities that due exactly that. Throwing a party or living the high life between crawls gets you mechanical benefits in exchange for your gold, as it should. Hate miser PCs.
I add mechanical bonuses (temporary) for spending more money on food, drink, lodging, etc.
It's not much, but it adds up over time.
Older editions give the majority of exp for find gold. I’ve seen OSR games only award that exp after you spend that gold.
I think a system like that would do the trick.
REQUEST: Can you make a video on how capable high level badguy clerics and wizards are with their resources and spells? How they can use each information spell to keep tabs and track enemies to their cause? How likely or when the players get on their radar and how often and how much these bad guys can spy, scry, track players activities?
In my Greyhawk campaign the 12 lvl Cleric and Magic User has 6th lvl spells at their disposal and I want to figure out when and how they react to players activities and what they can do about the players.
5:25 This is just my opinion, but I guess "Performance" skill could be used when rolling to determine if the "floating skull"-act is successful or not.
Wonderful!
Thanks, James. It's getting less views that usual, so I'd be grateful if you shared it. Cheers!
Shared... Thx for making my week!
Thieves in AD&D had d6HP per level. The backstab ability was also more limited than the modern era.
Indiana Jones is a Thief in the 1st edition style
There was an expectation that Players thought about their characters more.
@Michael Johnson I was using a more modern reference; but yes, the Gray Mouser is the template for the AD&D Thief. He did it all.
Thieves are the most fun! Though part of me thinks every adventurer should be multiclassed as a thief.
Brilliant!
My name is Mihail Westerly. I used to be a Rogue with the Spy-background until..... ("HALT RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!.")
When your burned you've got nothing. No gold, no enchanted gear, no XP.
You're stuck in whatever city they decide to dump you in. ("Where am I?")...("Waterdeep"). You do whatever work comes your way. You rely on anyone who's still talking to you:
A Barbarian ex-girlfriend. ("Should we slay them?")
An old Ranger friend who used to inform on you to the Order of the Gauntlet. ("You know Rogues, bunch of bitchy little girls.")
Family too. ("Hey is that your mom again?") If you're desperate. ("Someone needs your help, Mihail.")
And a down and out Bard you met along the way. ("That how we do it people").
Bottom line as long as your burned your not going anywhere.
Stay healthy in these trying times, Prof!
You showed the thief with the extra long arm from the 1e book! seriously take another look at that arm...@ 1:22. for 30 years i have wondered about that picture
I never thought his arm was weird.
In Old school DND ... weaponry was always a means of last resort for a thief... just like with a magic user...
My first AD&D character was a thief. First edition thief had d6 hit dice, by the way.
Can you do barbarians next? To me their a very rare class that people play. Also awesome video.
Barbarians are great!
You can get a head start by reading Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy.