Follow along with my article: www.flutesloot.com/thief-rogue-subclass-dnd-5e-deep-dive/? Contested point: it has been supposed that Sneak Attack is not compatible with ranged improvised weapon attacks. Use an Object: "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn." To me, this seems clear that what I like best about the Thief holds true. If anything, it challenges the assertion that Sneak Attack can apply to the ranged improvised weapon attack, which I'm fine with because getting Sneak Attack with the improvised weapon isn't necessary (just nice to have as an option). Ask your DM if they'd allow you to use Sneak Attack with a ranged improvised weapon attack. You can still enjoy the Thief if the answer is 'no' from your DM. :) Here is what I said on the matter in my article that may have not been clearly portrayed in the video: "Depending on your DM, you might be able to Sneak Attack by making a ranged weapon attack with an improvised weapon using your Dexterity! You can definitely use Dexterity as your attack modifier, but your DM will decide if improvised weapons count as "ranged weapons" per the Sneak Attack rules. Your thrown improvised weapons will certainly be ranged attacks. In my opinion, they should count as ranged weapons even though they don't appear on the weaponry table in the PHB." Commenter "There's No Race Like Gnome" (great name) pointed out the following: "The DMG chapter on magic items, under Activating an Item -> Spells, explains how to calculate the DC for spells cast from items. It actually uses the specific example of a Thief with Use Magic Device. Basically, your spellcasting ability modifier is just +0." Errata to the video: "A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don’t have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you’re a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply" (DMG, p.141)
Rather fun use of Fast Hands, had someone steal a magic ring mid combat. Turns out it was a ring of feather fall... The bad guy 'knew' that he had the ring so as an escape option, decided to jump off a cliff confident his ring would protect him.
In my view the Use Magic Device feature allows the Thief to use Spell Scrolls. All of them, ignoring all race, class and *level* requirements! So the Thief potentially becomes a better spellcaster than the Arcane Trickster...
I interpret the Thief's use of scrolls in the same way. It's one of the only ways that ignoring "level" is relevant for Use Magic Device. A Thief can cast from any scroll without having to roll. As I wrote in my spell scroll article, "...regarding spell level in spell scrolls. It is difficult for a character to activate a spell scroll that contains a spell of level that exceeds the character’s spellcasting ability (higher-level spell than what the character can cast with its spell slots). The DMG requires characters in this scenario to roll ability checks with spellcasting modifiers to attempt successful casting. On a failure, the spell within the scroll fades away forever as the spell fails to take effect." If the Thief can ignore level requirements, I'd say that works with spell scrolls!
@@FlutesLoot It's a monster ability if your DM allows it (and gives you some fun scrolls to play with). Also amazing on an Artificer - who get criticised for being half casters but who can freely use all spell scrolls as well from level 14 (Magic Item Savant).
Solidifies the rogue as the overall best class really. They are past experts in every skill, casters, damage dealers. The only issue is number of attacks.
There's also the fun bit where you can set Hunting Traps with Fast Hands, anchor and all. Hunting Traps have the same rider to stop movement when triggered, take an action to get out of, are easily reusable, and don't have a size limit. While the standard chain length for the anchor is 3ft, you can build, mod, or commission traps with longer or shorter chains, thereby altering how far your victim can move without trying to escape.
Lol I actually had recorded a bit about this in the video but it didn't make the cut. Hunting trap's wording is so weird since it doesn't describe how to anchor it, just set it. It could be a useful tool if the DM is cool with it and Fast Hands. :) I do talk about hunting trap in my article.
As far as I know there's no real rules for the use of a grappling hook in 5e. I can imagine your DM ruling it requiring a Use an Object action, which the Thief Rogue can do with Fast Hands. Which would work nicely in tandem with Second Story Work. The Rogue's Blindsense feature at level 14 synergizes nicely with your Smoke Greandes too.
My first Rogue was a thief and It's still my favorite subclass to this day, I didn't even know how crazy it could be I just loved the subclass. I'm excited to bring him back in a future campaign with what I just learned.
Second story work is actually really useful inside a city, forest, or anywhere with climbable objects, especially if there are opponents there shooting down. If you take the Mobile feat or have Haste and Longstrider cast on you then you're effectively a parkour expert, climbing at full speed. A base 30 speed with Mobile becomes 40, Longstrider it becomes 50, Haste it's 100. That's 100 feet moving up a wall.
I was thinking more of archers on a rampart or rooftop firing down. Parkour up the wall and attack them. They have to draw swords or do a ranged attack while in melee with you, which is a bad time for them. Either you cut them down or they have to stop firing at your friends to deal with you. Since you would have the Mobile feat you could freely move after attacking too as you don't provoke opportunity attacks from any creature you've attacked this turn. They'll have to chase you, an opponent faster than them, while your friends make their way up safely . Of course you could also throw some acid or alchemist's fire on them too while you're at it.
The DMG chapter on magic items, under Activating an Item -> Spells, explains how to calculate the DC for spells cast from items. It actually uses the specific example of a Thief with Use Magic Device. Basically, your spellcasting ability modifier is just +0.
I actually ran a thief through a campaign up to level 14 and I will say, up until towards the end, he was the most reliable character in the party and I abused the crap out of fast hands. Made an improvised Molotov Cocktail with a flask of oil and a handkerchief to expose an invisible enemy, combined a piton and a length of rope to save an ally from an enemy who was flying over a chasm to drop him(threw the piton attached rope at my ally to catch.) and also caught a flying tiefling using Second Story work.
@@FlutesLoot Oh definitely. What makes it even more hilarious is that I am typically a caster player. I have a lot of characters in my head that are primarily casters(personal favorites are wizards and bards) and with those, I typically play conservative at lower levels, using my magic at critical points rather than all the time. It's a common trap for players to only focus on the limited abilities of the class and almost never look at the miscellaneous stuff that's also in their pack, which to me is doing the items a disservice. Can do quite a bit with your stuff if you just think about it a little.
Fun fact gunpowder has been around for a very long time and would be around during a medieval fantasy period since it was around during our own as well alongside real primitive versions of guns which were essentially a long metal tube with packed gunpowder a projectile and a way to ignite it it was very short range with the only way to increase said range was to add more gunpowder which typically blew up the bamboo versions of these weapons before they moved the design over to metal, remember this is a universe where gnomes and dwarves exist gunpowder absolutely exists (including a magical variant called rune powder which was made by gnomes and is typically way more volatile than regular gunpowder to the point where a vial is enough to destroy a boulder) and this exists in the main 5e world forgotten realms
I do love rogues but having played more powerful classes I always worry about being able to contribute. Next time I roll up a character I may try this. Thanks.
I highly recommend giving it a shot. Rogues may lack some of the powerhouse tools that other classes have, but they are fun to play once you settle into their style. I've played more Rogue characters than any other class because I enjoy them. :)
Thanks, man. This is great. I am playing a Thief Rogue in Curse Of Strahd right now, and it was actually my DM who pointed me to this video. So I suspect that he will at least be open to the idea of this additional damage option. We'll see. Weeeeee!
Fantastic! Please let me know how it goes. I definitely know you can get your hands on a few interesting items for Thief Rogues in that campaign ;) I also have a Curse of Strahd video or two that your DM may enjoy if they haven't watched em alreayd.
@@FlutesLoot We are pretty far along in Strahd by now, and my character already has 6 levels in Rogue (Thief) and 4 in Sorcerer. But I've got a few things that might be handy (a box of scorpions, for instance), and I will keep my eyes out for more stuff that I can use in this way. I will mention your Strahd videos my DM. Who knows, it might have been looking at those that led him to this Thief Rogue video. I have no idea how much of our campaign so far is stock and how much is custom. But he can probably get some good ideas from them.
Other thing weird about alchemist fire is that also dont state how long it burns... so, if someone have permanent regeneration feature, you can incapacitate him, rurn him on fire with an alchemist fire and it will burn forever The item didnt say how long burns, just thay you can use an action to extinguish the flames... so... if you somehow gain inmunity to fire, you can set yourself on a green fire to intimidate enemies... or to light up the darknoath on your way home at night
Fun bit of info, if you're a pact of the chain warlock with investment of the chain master any dc your familiar causes can be your spell save dc meaning stuff like caltrops or ball bearings have a scaling dc for your familiar (go imp because they can be constantly invisible while setting up traps on their turn without breaking invisibility because they aren't making attacks, also an imp can use grenades without breaking invisibility) now what you really want is the flock of familiars spell because it'll allow you to summon 3 imps at level 3 (+1 every spell level past 2nd) which all benefit from your Invocations and pact boons now typically you could use this to get a couple more attacks at the cost of your bonus action on your turn however I see multiple invisible creatures throwing grenades (with the option of still doing the multiple attacks with a bonus action if you want however I should mention this would break invisibility which is a direct invite to the dm saying "please hit these creatures" and I'd rather not spend an additional 10gp on top of the costs of making grenades to resummon an imp so you can summon more imps)
I've got an idea grenade throwing rogue/Artificer. I'd use starting gold to try and get the bare minimum of equipment for a rogue and spend the rest on the regular bombs since you buy 10 for 1 gold.
Really loved this video. DND Daily got me interested in Fast Hands but this video helped me get really excited to play a Thief. I've always loved playing spellcasters because the arsenal of tools for creativity which made me think martial characters will be boring and limiting. This unlocks a whole new dimension of creativity and I'm very very excited to play one in my upcoming pirate campaign.
You sir, just made me love theif even more than i already do. I a bit new to dnd still, amd had no idea about being able to do that stuff with acid and the alchemist fire. You just told me how to make my lv. 17 theif/lv.3 battle smith artificer(assuming campaign gets to max level) so much more fun to play
The thief has been my favorite/favored class since 2nd ed, i do enjoy trying out other classes but theres a 90% chance if im making a new character im gonna be the thief in the party
this is dependant on your DM, but another multiclass is conjuration wizard. the 2nd level ability can let you just make acid vials, holy water, bombs, etc, granted alchemist fire wont work cause it can only deal damage once but yea, also it fits with a thief thematically, u get caught for stealing and thrown in jail, the guard locks you up and you saw the key he used. boom summon the key and escape
Imagine being paired with someone who give you Haste, or can weaponize your reaction. I would stay very far away of enemies though, since you can't use your defensive kit.
You could get 4 Sneak Attacks in the first round. It takes a lot for this to happen. Be lvl 17 and have 2 Battle Masters. You attack, they command your reaction to attack, you attack with 2nd Initiative, 2nd Battle Master command. Sneak Attacks can be used once A turn. 36d6 (at lvl 17) plus whatever bonus and effects.
Thinking of using an alchemist with this, being able to lob shit with tavern brawler as a bonus action while using spells that are flavored as them tossing vials of shit
@@FlutesLoot what do you think about combining this with the mobile feat? Hit the enemy with your action, chain them up or drop a bomb with you ba and then run away without having them hit you with an oa
@@FlutesLoot works well with a sling funnily enough, sling has a very short range of 30, so you can lob potions and also use a sling attack. Midgard heroes improves a lot on slings for kobolds and even whips get a great upgrade
One thing you didn’t get into very deeply is you get to sleight of hand as a bonus to attack… yes, but you can us it to actually sleight of hand. If you know what a mage components looks like you could be stealing the shit out of that in the middle of combat. I suppose it’d be up to your dm to allow because I find rogues in general get screwed when dms decide to put realism on them specifically when fighters can heal themselves and monks can run on water. Technically though stealing potions and spell components in the middle of combat could be super useful if your dm doesn’t make it useless. I’ve always wanted to play a rogue that does sneaky shit like that in combat like shackle you hand to someone else’s or other actually sneaky rogue things that seem to have gotten more and more out of favor
Yes, and the BA for Sleight of Hand is something I talk about more in my article, and especially in another article/video about taking down archmages. Taking arcane focuses and components can win the battle.
I don't think improvised weapons enable sneak attack though - they are neither ranged nor finesse weapons, although you can make a ranged attack with them
Sneak attack is with finesse weapons or a ranged weapon. Considering that there is no "Ranged" property on weapons, the only reasons you can tell them apart from non-ranged weapons is the range between parenthesis. Which improvised weapons have. You can argue that this does not count though, as otherwise you would be attacking at disadvantage any enemies within 5 ft with your improvised weapon. It looks like no, they don't count for sneak attack. However, this entire topic is not clear at all. For example, you make an improvised attack with alchemist fire, but do you make the initial improvised weapon attack of 1d4 and then add the fire damage? Or does the fire damage replace the improvised weapon damage? The answer changes how using the catapult spell works when throwing alchemist fire too. It is very unclear. Interesting enough, one part of sharp shooter cares only about making ranged attacks. So you can technically take it and keep yourself at a 60ft distance without disadvantage when throwing your alchemist fire.
Sounds fun! You're not the only one who likes the Theif subclass. The dungeon dudes gave it a pretty good rating too. Theirs was not as high as yours but encouraging the subclass nonetheless.
Harengon works great for the lvl 17 feature add the alert feat (+16 to iniative should be enough) and a flexible dm and you can sneak attack 4 times in the first round. In this case there are just are so many great feats to take that you may feel like there aren't enough ASI's for you to also raise your stats. To name some great pick: alert, tavern brawler, sharpshooter, magic initiate/fae touched/shadow touched (to set a spell save dc now that you can cast a spell), mobile, tough, resilient constitution and warcaster. (Just in case you find an item with some really good concentration spells in it)
Harengon would be fantastic, and those feats are all on the table! It will depend on the player's desire to specialize. Will they want to maximize the efficiency of attacks with improvised weapons or focus on securing opportunity attacks each round? It's all up to the player.
What about Sharpshooter w/ Tavern Brawler as a Thief Rogue? That gets you +40ft on your improvised range and depending on what you're throwing, you could get advantage on your crossbow attack which you then apply the penalty for the bonus damage from SS + sneak attack.
That's a great point! I had not considered Sharpshooter's benefits with the range of ranged weapons. I'm going to add that to my article summary for feat benefits.
You forgot the most important magical item in the game, spell scrolls " If the spell is on your class's spell list, you can use an Action to read the scroll and cast its spell without having to provide any of the spell's Components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible."
@@FlutesLoot the dragonmarked gnome is yes. The Archivist was like first publication of the class I believe. If you are not making scrolls constantly the subclass is sorta meh.
I'm almost positive it is NOT meant to ignore attunement. It specifically says Class and Level requirements. You can use things like a Wand Of Magic Missle that take an Action, or even read a Scroll that has a 1-minute Casting Time or something... but not use an Attunement item without Attuning.
That would be strange to me since those requirements are only mentioned in attunement. The feature would do almost nothing if it didn't work for attunement. I'll look it up later to see if there is an answer.
I think you have misunderstood one another. The way Flutes talked about the feature in the video could have given the impression that he believes the feature subverts the need to attune at all, but that could be a misunderstanding. The feature does ignore the Attunment restrictions to race and class, however it doesn't ignore Attunment entirely. So a Thief could attune to a holy avenger without needing to be a Paladin. Also, there is a consensus that Thief Rogues can use the Holy Avenger as if they had 18 levels in Paladn (gaining the full 30ft aura). I'm not personally too sure about that but it could be considered a "level requirement"
@@Calavid ah you may be right. What I meant to portray is that attunement rules still apply, but some of the states restrictions on whom can attune to an item is ignored by the Thief. Still need to attune to use the items in question.
I'm currently tryna make a rogue that's basically a mischievous Halfling saboteur, with a Crossbow, Explosives, and Booby-Traps. I think Thief may just be the best choice for this character.
Thank you! I just got the 2024 book and haven't combed through it yet, but I've seen the Thief features, and they seem to be an improvement all around. I hope they can still toss bombs, though.
Unfortunately you can’t sneak attack with oil/acid/etc. for both RAW and balance reasons. Other people have talked about the RAW, but I think the balance reason is even more important. On the surface it seems fine since it’s just gives a second chance for sneak attack to trigger, which is similar enough to the free advantage that rogue’s get from cunning action. The problem here is with readied actions. The thief can throw their oil, get a sneak attack, and then use their main action to ready an attack action. Then on another player’s turn they can use their reaction to make a second attack and get a second instance of sneak attack. Normally a rogue needs to have haste casted on them to do this. It’s a big deal, but perhaps not gamebreaking depending on your table. For instance, using oil and a light crossbow at level 5 with tavern brawler the thief does an average of 0.6*(2.5+4+10.5) + 0.6*(4.5+4+10.5) = 21.6 damage. By contrast a PAM and GWM barbarian does 0.49*(2.5+3+10+2) + 0.49*2*(5.5+3+10+2) = 28.7 In my mind the extra damage you’re giving the rogue is fair when considering what other optimized martial are doing, but you’d definitely have to think before allowing that in your game.
i like the fact that at level 13 a rogue can wear the robe of archmagi as their best armor, by having 15 + dex and the strong magic resistance, also giving +2 on dc bonus and stuff for staff possibly if it stacks, do not know about that tho. Like imagine this scene: TAKE DOWN THE MAGE! Rogue with his knife ready to stab some people in close combat
A lot of people don't understand why rogues get longsword proficiency, because they don't get to sneak attack with it if it doesn't have the finnesse property. I don't know the reason either but I do know that there are magic longswords that rogues can sneak attack with. The sunblade (has the lowest rarety at rare but I would a +2 longsword anyday. As that's the biggest damage that rogues can get for melee weapons), sunsword (sunblade variety), moonblade (can have the finnesse property rolled onto it) and the Dawnbringer all have the finnesse property and can work with rogue sneak attack. The d10 from a longsword also works nicely with half-orc brutal critical and there racial feat. (I wish was a finnesse warpick so you could add the piercer feat too! That would be on a crit 1d10 for the weapon + 1d10 because it's a crit + 1d10 from half-orc + 1d10 from piercer + 2d10 from the racial feat "the text of the feat talks about on a normal hit you can choose to add this so that's doubled on a crit, right and it provides an extra opportunities too sneak attack" for glorius total of 6d10 + sneak attack)
Use Magic Device allows you to use magic items but does not give you proficiency in it, another problem is when use spellscrolls if you are try to cast a spell from a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your Spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully; And as a Thief you spellcasting is 0. 1 lvl deep in War/Storm Domain cleric will give proficiency in all Armors, Shield and Weapons, also give Spellcasting for itens that require that you use your own DC, and make it ease to use spellscrolls.
I believe the intent of ignoring character level in the Use Magic Device feature is suited to using spell scrolls without having to roll to succeed in using them.
I have a character concept where it's a Holy Knight that isn't a cleric or paladin. The build is a character of any race (I don't believe in racial optimization), 3 levels of Thief Rogue for fast hands (bonus if you can convince your GM to allow you to use Sleight of Hand checks on battle as a bonus action to disarm and steal important items in combat), 5 levels of champion fighter for the easy crits and thematic effect. For the Fighting Style you want to use the Unarmed fighting style. Having your fists be a d8 of damage and able to grapple as a FREE ACTION is quite good. For your ASI or Feat it's your choice of a stat increase or grabbing the Healer feat. (This is how you can help heal your party thru non magical means). For a Background use either acolyte for a more church based adventure or Knight for a more kingdom based one.
@@FlutesLoot Haha, I catch your drift: Reflavoring is indeed awesome! But to me, flavor is less of an issue than the fact that these modern weapons are quite a bit stronger than their medieval counterparts. I mean, craftable grenades that deal 5D6 piercing damage play kinda in the same ballpark as hunting rifles that deal 2D10 piercing damage.
Making a Ranged Weapon Attack does not equal making an Attack with a Ranged Weapon. Throwing something is a ranged weapon attack indeed, however, the thrown object does not become a ranged weapon simply because it is thrown. This means that sneak attack does not apply when you throw a vial of acid.
I agree that it can be interpreted this way, and probably should be. I encourage players in my article to ask their DMs how they'll rule it. It's not actually a huge deal for this subclass and its damage output.
That's the debatable part. It's a ranged weapon attack, but not a ranged weapon. The DM would need to approve Sneak Attack with ranged improvised weapon attacks, but it's not of critical importance to the Thief to deal SA with IWs. I talk about this nuance more in my article than I did in the video.
Im about to start playing my Yuan Ti lv4 thief rogue, lv 2 shepherd druid character with the mobile feat Shes gonna be bonus action dashing all over the place, and casting longstrider It got insane She can run up walls like a ninja, running up walls much much faster than other characters can move on the ground Which works really well in our campaign because we are doing lots of heists adventures Our party has an alchemist jug, so I'm going to beg our artificer for vials of acid Another party member found a ring of jumping, and I'm going to try and find some good magical loot to trade her with If our GM will allow this character to have boots of speed, it truely gets disgusting how fast she can move
Hey, I… got another question… Use magic Device allows rogues to use Any magic item, but many of these use your spell casting modifier. I understand that means your modifier is +0, but does that change if you take something like the “Magic initiate” Feat?
Expertise athletics Shove action Fast action to use a rope There you go. Capturing somebody in all of one round. With reliable talent, even with dumped strength you're always rolling nearly 20 to shove, more at higher levels and especially if you didn't dump it.
Hog-tied! Since there aren't rules for tying up an active enemy, your DM might not even require you to shove them :P I think the assumption is that they'd be restrained. Rope also only has 2 hitpoints and can be burst with a DC 17 Strength check, so that might make it less fantastic. While we're at it, we can talk about manacles since their description is mega-vague. Maybe you could manacle someone mid-combat!
I would be inclined to use the arcane trickster calculation for spell save DC based on int for a thief rogue although that's not official and of course your charisma or wisdom is likely to be higher so talk to the DM
I think that's fair! Aside from that ruling, it was pointed out that there is actually a rule in the DMG for this predicament. "The DMG chapter on magic items, under Activating an Item -> Spells, explains how to calculate the DC for spells cast from items. It actually uses the specific example of a Thief with Use Magic Device. Basically, your spellcasting ability modifier is just +0."
@@FlutesLoot wouldn't it than be better to just learn 1 or 2 spells via feat (maybe 1 that requires save dc or spell attack?) Now you have a defined save dc which will make easier to cast a spell and have other fail the save.
@@woutvanostaden1299 haha yep exactly. I'd still check how a DM would interpret that, but learning even one spell might make the Thief's effectiveness improve for magic items.
@@MarceloNashiro If you can find a way to attack outside of your action, absolutely. I play a battlemaster/swashbuckler atm and regularly use either action surge to ready one action, or a maneuver like brace or riposte to get off a second sneak attack. Completely legal rules as written. If your DM has an issue with it just add up the damage a great weapon master barbarian or a sharpshooter archer does over an adventuring day and show them that compared to yours, they will realise you're just barely keeping up and chill.
Correct! If your DM allows you to get Sneak Attack with ranged improvised weapons (definitely ask first), you could then use your action to use the Ready action and make an attack for another dose of Sneak Attack during the round using your reaction.
i would not rule that alchemist fire would not be applicable and I don't think crawford would either. The wording does not say when you make a ranged attack it says an "Attack with a RANGED weapon" you can apply sneak attack. Bows and the like have the "Ranged Weapon" Subtype as a classification. Alchemist fire does not. Plus it makes little sense why the contents of a vial of acid become more lethal regardless of where you hit them on the body its still acid or fire. Piercing weapons however can penetrate deeper into the body depending on where they hit is landed. "improvised weapon" is its own subtype attributed to an object you use as a weapon, by weapon does not get the "ranged" or "thrown" property suddenly just because i choose to throw it.
oil lasts for a minute on direct hit, 2 rounds if on the ground when lit. think soaked into clothing. think it and alchemist fire should cause disadvantage for putting out the fire but thats just me.
The best use of Fast Hands is with Artificer's Spell Storing item, assuming the item you use is a non-magical tool. This will come up again whenever Hadozee are released.
Hey just thought I would point this out about your dpr. In the later levels did you account for the fact that they can do sneak attack at least twice per round when they hit level 17 and possibly 3 with attacks of opportunity?
Hi Kyle! I factored in opportunity attack chance, but only with a 5% chance since I'm not very optimistic about getting opportunity attacks in a given round. It's not a scientific 5%, just an estimate that I thought wouldn't inflate the DPR too much but would still consider it. I did not factor in the two turns in the first round of combat because I didn't think of a way to calc that in a way that I'd be happy with. I think it's safe to say that we'd be 50% over baseline factoring it in though. Basically, I'm ultra-reserved on these calcs and they still look great. :) If you think I can improve these assumptions, I'd happily hear the ideas. I still need to wrap my head around DPR when resources are spent for a group that has one combat per day vs a group with eight per day (gonna take a while for me to get there).
Dumb question, but I can't find an answer anywhere. Can you use the Interact with an Object Action to doff someone else's shield? I know you can't use the Disam Action to get them to drop it while donned, Crawford has already spoken on that. Just seems odd that you can take away their weapon or focus, but not their shield.
The short answer is no. Unlike weapons, a shield requires an action to gain its benefits or unequip it. It's not specified if it's an established action to do it, so it's a unique action. Rule otherwise if you wish, but a shield would be less useful if any commoner could walk up and interact to remove it. That feels more odd to me.
@@FlutesLoot I’m going to be real with you - I saw this video for the first time 3 days ago, then saw the Thief rework and now I’m trying to reconcile your brilliant subclass breakdown with this set of potential changes.
Thief can chuck two beers a round as long they both aren't magical? Even tough it is literally identical to drink them either way and you can clearly drink both if onenof them is only magical? What is the reasoning behind that you can drink twice from water skin but you can't drink twice from water skin? (Just fill a water skin with liquids from healing potion...) If you think double healing potion is too strong how double bear trap make sense? You can literally hammer down two bear traps but can't drink two magical beers 😂
@@FlutesLoot Yes, it is just a Balance question. But it can raise hilarious moments when player says "I use my bonus action to interact with it." Rules as Written if it is Magical you can't do so 😏 so you will ALWAYS know if an object is magical or not 😉 just a loop hole within the rules. Tough we agree we don't cheese like that becasue it is not that fun. Also if trap has magical components you can't pull the leaver because it would be interacting with magic. Can't open doors if they have magical locks because technically it would be action to interract with magical item 😆
I've been playing a Rogue Thief in a homebrew Greyhawk campaign. Started at level 1. Currently at level 12. He was a homeless street urchin foster care kid. He does steal though... from all the corrupt rich and wealthy people in power in the big cities. He doesn't keep the money however. He gives it away to all the orphanages to take care of the kids.
@@FlutesLoot I did however go Variant Human. Took Crossbow Expert for the feat. (Characters background was he learned to master the Hand Crossbow hanging out with a goblin gang as a little kid) Took the Sharpshooter feat at level 4. Bumped DEX +2 at level 8. Piercer feat at level 10 (DEX +1), and then finally maxed out his DEX at level 12 with the Skill Expert feat. I love playing this character. I never fail Sleight of Hand or Stealth checks. And I rarely ever miss with my Hand Crossbow. Great class. So much utility.
Serious question: Can the Elves’ updated Trance ability allow them to gain proficiency with Improvised Weapons, or perhaps just with throwing “grenades”/stones? Seems like that would be fairly reasonable to get as a weapon proficiency.
The Shadar-Kai can Trance to gain proficiency with weapons, so as a DM, I'd allow it for specific improvised weapons (not all). I'm not confident in an official ruling since there seems to be a difference between an actual weapon and just anything that can be an improvised weapon, but it won't break the game to allow a player to add proficiency to a few flask tosses. :)
Other idea: Commission someone to make “vials” that are DESIGNED to be thrown with groves molded along the sides for better grip or they get attached atop a club like a German grenade stick (though this may be similar enough to a hand axe, which doesn’t have Finesse, so that’s a problem). Commissioned “vials” that resemble daggers or darts?
It will heavily depend on DM interpretation, but I personally rule it in the following way: if the item says the dice it rolls on impact, I'd probably use that dice instead of the default 1d4, treating it as an override of the default. If impact damage isn't specified, I'd use 1d4 default.
@@FlutesLoot That's RAW how you do it. "A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don’t have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you’re a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply" (DMG, p.141)
@@greatgyatso5429 Tbh, I was in an airport when I saw your comment and couldn't remember if it was the RAW :P I thought I updated this in the artcle after another similar comment, but I don't see it. Thanks for pointing it out so I can make the update!
I was not inspired by that video, but thank you for bringing it up so I can watch it! Drow Bard is not a channel I've encountered before. I'll check out their stuff with your recommendation.
Regarding grenades, you do realize that your range is 20' throwing them and the radius of the AOE is 20', right? Unless your taking disadvantage on the throw, you are just within the blast radius. Not ideal
Since grenades are not improvised attacks and they specifically say they can be thrown 60 feet, that shouldn't be a problem :) Fragmentation Grenade: "As an action, a character can throw a grenade at a point up to 60 feet away. With a grenade launcher, the character can propel the grenade up to 120 feet away. Each creature within 20 feet of an exploding fragmentation grenade must make a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw, taking 5d6 piercing damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one."
11:20 "It is unclear to me and I haven't found an official ruling..." That's because you overlooked the last 2 lines in the description text for oil at the 11:00 mark. The last sentence states "A creature can only take this damage once per turn" and sentence preceding it implies that a flask of burning oil only burns for 2 rounds after being lit. So, in answer to your your question lets assume the target is an Owlbear and the party is a fighter, a thief, and a wizard and Owlbear lost initiative. The fighter throws the oil flask on his turn doing 1d4 bludgeoning + STR modifier damage (based on the improvised weapon rules) and covering the Owlbear in oil. The wizard then cast Scorching Ray and successfully strikes with 3 hits doing 6d6 fire damage (2d6 for each ray) + 5 damage for the now burning oil⭐ the oil continues to burn until the end of the Wizards second round. The thief follows on his turn with the Alchemist Fire doing 1d4 bludgeoning + STR modifier (improvised weapon rule) no fire damage is done since the rules for Alchemist Fire state the target (Owlbear in this case) takes fire damage at the start of their turn, not on the turn of the character throwing the Alchemist Fire. When the Owlbear starts his next turn it takes 1d4 from the Alchemist Fire +5 for the oil. Assuming the Owlbear is just dumb and consumed by animalistic rage it never tries to put out the Alchemist Fire and instead attacks and drops the Fighter, The Wizard cast another Scorching Ray and hits twice doing 4d6 (2d6 per ray) +5 for the oil⭐ and ends his second turn, marking the end of the oil's effect. The thief throws a second Alchemist Fire doing 1d4 bludgeoning damage (improvised weapon rule) and at the start of the Owlbear's next turn it takes 2d4 fire damage from the 2 Alchemist Fires only as the oil is considered done burning at the end of the Wizard's second turn. ⭐Supposedly, there is an inconsistency with fire-based spells and only some (like Fireball and Meteor Swarm) specifically state that the spell will ignite flammable objects and spells like Scorching Ray and Flame Arrows do not specifically state that they can ignite things... So, it's possible that the oil isn't considered ignited until the start of the Owlbear's turn after getting struck by the first Alchemist Fire taking 1d4 +5 (for oil) fire damage, then 2d4 +5 (for oil) at the start of its next turn after being struck by the second Alchemist Fire, and only 2d4 at the start of its 3rd turn, since the oil effects expired.
I didn't overlook that. I wasn't wondering about per-turn damage. I want to know the duration, which people often conflate with the burning on the ground option, which I do not find clear. Even if someone feels confident in how they read it and apply it, it is objectively unclear for mass use.
@@FlutesLoot You must be a ADB Starfleet Battles player (if something is not SPECIFICALLY stated in the rules, it CANNOT be done in the game). 😛Either that or for some reason this detail (or more more precisely lack of detail) regarding the burn time for oil has got you stuck. 🤔 Your issue is that you believe the 2-turn burn time for oil poured on the ground is being conflated to mean that it has a 2-turn burn time when covering a creature... and for some reason you find that duration unsuitable, and that there has to be a specific burn duration to reflect the particular situation of an oil-covered creature vs. an oil covered patch of ground. This is one of those things where individual DM's and players could potentially make logical arguments for or against longer or shorter burn time based on the situation, real-world physics and chemistry behind fire science, and a whole host of details that WOTC doesn't cover in the game rules... which is why they leave it up to the DM's to make the call. Imagine if a player character was the one struck by oil and then lit by a fired-based attack, how do you think that argument would go between a DM and a player who knows that a second turn of taking 5 damage from burning oil and another hit could drop his character? PC: "I was splashed, there's no way the whole pint of oil got on me, it shouldn't burn for 2 turns." DM: "Some of the oil would have soaked into your clothing and that would technically start to burn with the oil" PC: "I'm wearing full plate, its metal and cant catch on fire." DM: "Full plate has a suit of padded cloth armor under the chainmail and plates, the oil can reach the cloth through the gaps in the plates and chain links." PC: "But we got caught in the rain just before entering the goblin cave, and it would still be wet and can't catch on fire." DM: "Remember the Wizard used Prestidigitation to dry out everyone so their equipment wouldn't get ruined." PC: "Can I put the flames out before taking the 5 damage next turn?" DM: "You can try to do Stop, Drop, and Roll for 10-20 (1d10+10) rounds (1-2 minutes), you wont take damage from the burning oil, but you'd be prone and unable to move more than 5 feet or take any other actions until the fire is out." In this case the reality of the portion of the splash that missed the character is countered by the reality of other fuel (cloth underpadding) for the fire. Using the 2-turn burn time described for burning oil on the ground to also serve as the burn time when splashed on a creature isn't conflating the two it is a reasonable assumption to imply that, in general, a pint of oil covering a surface (whether an organic creature or inorganic floor) will provide enough fuel to burn for 12 seconds (2 rounds) before going out. Even the burning duration regarding to oil poured on the ground can be called into question, the rules state the surface has to be level to cover the square, a 5x5 foot area. The thing is the rules don't address the details of what the surface in made of or what else might be on it. 🤔Can oil be poured on porous sands of a beach or desert and still be lit on fire? Would the partial absorption of oil into the packed dirt of a path or road act as a wicking structure that slows the burn rate and allow for 3 turns of burning instead of 2 as mentioned in the rules. What about wooden floors? What if its a stone floor but its by a window with floor-length drapes in the same square? Do the curtains catch fire? Oil and water don't mix. If an enemy or PC pours oil on top of a container and lights it on fire to hide an object or keep someone from reaching in and grabbing it, how long does in burn then since it is covering an area less than 5x5 feet? How high do the flames rise when a thin covering of oil burns over a large surface area like a 5x5 foot square? Everyone gets caught up different sticking points in the rules regrading specifics to a situation, evidently burning oil on a creature vs. on a surface was your quirk. As a fellow DM, I suggest just using the 2-turn burn time as an appropriate base duration whether on a creature or on a surface.👍 Trust me, there's a much bigger headache from the million other things to figure out regarding how fire is supposed to work in D&D 5E with all the possible situations and tactics players may employ. The some of the rules inconsistency was even covered in a video by Bob The Worldbuilder th-cam.com/video/2r1_kEgi7vo/w-d-xo.html
@@FlutesLoot Your video did inspire a new homebrew item though, thought you'd get a kick out of it and maybe use it in your games. Figured I'd put it here in a separate comment so more people can easily find it rather than reading through the longer initial comment. WIZARD'S OIL BOMB🧙♂💣 A batch of 6 of these can be made with 1 candle and 6 flasks of oil. They are made by inserting a piece of candle into the stopper in the neck of the flask, with the candle wick on the inside. The air gap within the flask can provide 10-12 seconds (2 rounds) of burnable oxygen. The item can still be used in all regards as a normal oil flask, but anyone with Prestidigitation can employ the device in the following way: ACTIVATION TURN (Turn 1): On your turn, you an use 1 action to cast Prestidigitation lighting the candle inside the flask, you may choose to hand off the activated flask to an ally within 10 feet, if they have a free hand. The flask must be deployed before the end of your next turn. DEPLOYMENT TURN (Turn 2): Before the end of your turn following activation, you or the ally you handed the flask to must use an action to either throw the flask by hand or launch it with the use of the Catapult spell, otherwise it becomes an "Inert Oil Bomb" (see below). If thrown it is subject to the improvised weapon rules and is limited to the 20/60 range increments and can target a creature or a 5 foot square. If targeting a creature with a successful hit, the thrown flask does 1d4 + DEX modifier in bludgeoning damage + 5 fire damage when it strikes. If the Catapult spell is used to launch the flask at a creature it does 3d8 bludgeoning (as per the spell rules) + 5 fire damage for the burning oil on a successful hit. If targeted at the ground, whether thrown by hand or launched by the Catapult spell, the target square is set ablaze and per the normal oil rules will do 5 damage to any creature that enters the square on their turn or ends their turn in the square. MISSED TARGET: If the attack roll misses the intended target, the DM must determine where it actually strikes using whichever random miss tables they may rule by. The Wizard Oil Bomb will still set ablaze the square (or possibly creature) it lands on after missing the intended target. BURNING TURN (Turn 3+): Creatures previously struck continue to burn and take another 5 fire damage. While burning, any additional Wizard Oil Bombs or normal Oil Flask that successfully strike the creature before the end of your 3rd turn will each add 2 more turns of burning. Any turn the creature is considered burning will add 2 turns to the duration for each Wizard Oil Bomb or normal Oil Flask that strikes it on subsequent turns. INERT OIL BOMB: If the activated flask is not broken open (by throwing or catapulting at a target creature or area) by the end of your second turn the flame uses up the oxygen in the flask and it becomes and inert oil bomb. While in this state is reverts to a normal oil flask and can only be used as such unless it is reinitialized. The device can be reinitialized by using an action to briefly open the stopper and introduce new air into the flask for a moment before closing the stopper again. PRESTIDIGITATION ONLY: Prestidigitation is the only cantrip capable of igniting candles. Druidcraft cannot ignite candles only extinguish them and Thaumaturgy only manipulates flames that are already lit.
Find Familiar: "A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal." So by this argument a familiar can't attack, with claw or teeth, but COULD "Use an Object" and thus throw a Vial of Acid or Alchemist Fire against an enemy?
Did you delete your previous comment? Because I answered your question previously. Familiars can't attack. If something requires an attack roll, regardless of the action to do it, a familiar can't do it. If it said familiars can't use the attack *action*, they would remain open to other ways to attack, but it just says they can't attack.
To determain the Spell Save DC for non casting classes, look in the Race discription. High Elves gain a cantrip and it says to use INT for the Spell Save DC. If your race has nothing listed in discription, your modifer is zereo . ( 8 + proficiency bonus + 0)
If you can throw a flask, you can throw a dart. don't see why, if this works as described, you couldn't just use darts. 1d4 doesn't matter so long as you get sneak and it hits.
wow. 5/5. that's indeed bold. i consider thief to be one of the worse rogue subclasses in a normal campaign (DM doesn't give access to the best mundane items aside from the PHB ones and gold isn't overflowing). i could see though the potential to be a 4/5 (5/5 meaning it's the best rogue subclass is too much. I'd probably save that honor for something like the phantom, arcane trickster, swashbuckler or assassin). I'd say it's a 2/5. fast hands is indeed great if you can use stuff like the tangler, smoke grenade, inhaled poisons, etc. personally, i assess fast hands as it you're just dropping caltrops/ball bearings or throwing oil/acid flasks. and even then, other rogues can do the non-improvised attack item tactics by simply spending a feat on ritual caster and picking up unseen servant. just a slight correction here, you can't use improvised weapons to trigger sneak attack. sneak attack requires a ranged weapon to be used (weapon type) and not making a ranged weapon attack (attack type). JC has made this same clarification with sharpshooter and proceeded to differentiate attack type and weapon type: attack types: a. melee=weapon and spell b. ranged=weapon and spell (like the sun soul monk's spell attacks) weapon types: a. melee b. ranged c. natural d. improvised e. unarmed* (this has an asterisk because it's technically not a weapon) sneak attack checks weapon type not attack type. as for dmg for throwing alchemist's fire/oil, it's supposed to be dex on a hit (based on those tweets) then the effects thereafter. i have seen some DMs though have a more player friendly reading (that i think is still in line with RAW) that the flask itself deals the base improvised weapon dmg of 1d4 + dex just like what you stated. then the effects happen thereafter. dex is not added to the effects thereafter. as for oil if you're talking about the improvised attack option, then yes it activates on every instance of fire dmg like with scorching ray getting a +5 to each ray that hits. it it's the oil drop version, they will just get that dmg once per turn and only if they end/enter the area and the area is already lit let's say from a torch or tinderbox. each tick of the alchemist fire indeed does +5. the reason why i rank the thief low is aside from fast hands, you don't get anything good until level 17 which is why they are best as a dip class like the assassin. however, unlike the assassin, fast hands isn't as unique (or as powerful at some tables) due to the fact that's its easily replicated by picking up ritual caster or finding a way to get pets (like a pot of awakening for your very own baby groot!) btw this vid is a great resource for the use an object action for unseen servant and to diversify actions of pets/summons.
Thanks for the thorough thoughts! I addressed the improvised weapon / sneak attack issue better in the article. I am sticking with my 5/5 rating because it's rare that a subclass can transform a playstyle and highlight fringe mechanics.
@@FlutesLoot that's fair. as mentioned, i think it's viable from an optimization standpoint to be close to your ranking (i gave it a 4/5 but it will take alot for me to give it a 5/5 as much like giving out S tiers, i only give out 1 otherwise it loses value imo. so 5/5 only goes to 1 rogue subclass for me. at the moment imo that's the phantom) as long as the DM is not stingy with gold/crafting and allows access to the better items. if you're just using the phb items, there's still enough to work with there but it's not as game-changing as getting to impose conditions with decent dcs or high aoe dmg. like inhaled poisons are a killer if players are given access to the DMG items easily. or the tangler grenade. i do like the playstyle though of an improvised weapon thrower.
Thief is very much held back by the amount of DM fiat involved in Fast Hands. Mechanically, Adventuring Gear that references "improvised weapons" *should* include 1d4+Dex damage in order to justify the extremely high cost for the levels where they are relevant. Most DMs I've worked with consider this unintuitive, RAI, and I think that's very fair but we see this kind of cascading reference in things like Conditions, where a single plainly written word references an entire subsection of the PHB/DMG. Should a "ranged attack" with an improvised weapon render it an "improvised ranged weapon"? RAW I feel like that's loosey-goosey interpretation, but by the numbers I think it's honestly fine. At level 5: A thief weighing themselves down with Acid or Oil, using a consumable *every* turn plus readying an attack every turn with Sharpshooter and Archery fighting style from Vhuman or Custom will do approximately (Assuming 65% baseline to hit, up to 75% with Archery, +3 Dex Mod): 0.6*(1d4+3+3d6+ItemDamage) + 0.5*(1d10+3+3d6+10) or about 24.1 Damager Per Round + Item Damage A level 5 vhuman/custom fighter with Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter (Assuming 65% baseline to hit, up to 75% with Archery, +3 Dex Mod): 3*(0.5*(1d6+3+10)) or 24.75 Damage Per Round But the fighter doesn't have to worry about the weight, cost or availability of their crossbow bolts. They don't have to make sure that they're at the correct range, or that their target is engaged with someone else to get their Sneak Attack damage. The DM doesn't have to make a judgement call that the crossbow attacks closely enough resemble ranged weapon attacks to count as one. This also assumes the fighter isn't using *any* subclass mechanic to boost their damage. Thief can absolutely be an S-tier class, both for flavor and for damage. But there's a checklist of like 10 things your DM needs to sign-off on, and it goes down a half-tier for each thing they don't agree to.
I'm sorry Flutes, I have to dispute the main thing you like about this build. If you look at the rules for making an attack in the players handbook (I'm out and about so I can't get the exact page number, but it's in chapter 9), there is a line towards the end that states "If there’s ever any question whether something you’re doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you’re making an attack roll, you’re making an attack." This means that the improvised attacks for the objects here are still using the Attack action. I had to walk one of my players through this issue when they tried to do this. All the items that effect an area or require only a saving throw work fine, but RAW you cannot make attacks with the Use an Object action. I am also aware there is a rather misleading sage advice on this issue, but people take the point that Jeremy didn't explicitly deny that it doesn't use the Use an object action to mean it still does. If anything, his statement that these objects involve improvised attacks reinforce that it uses the Attack action IMO. If Fast Hands functioned as a free, unconditional bonus action attack, I think that would be pretty crazy unbalanced and I would likely rule against it for my own games regardless. Ofc, the game is about having fun tho, nd you did recommend players talk to their DMs about it beforehand, so if it wont bother the DM then its fine. (Forgive me if you spoke about this in the vid, I haven't had time to watch the full video yet, will do so soon)
Additionally, correct me if I'm wrong, but even if they did count as an Use an Object action, while making an attack with the objects here does count as a ranged attack with an improvised weapon, Sneak Attack requires the weapon to either have the finesse property or the weapon be a ranged weapon. While the attack is ranged, the weapon is not a ranged weapon in this case, so Sneak Attack would not apply.
@@rdigeri Tricky point. I can't recall where, it could have been a sage advice or in the PHB, but i remember some rule that states any item or body part being used to make an attack, counts as a weapon while it is being used to make said attack. If my memory serves me well, then you could in fact sneak attack with an improvised weapon. However, if im crazy and misinformed, then you may be correct.
@@Calavid Oh it does count as a weapon, just not as a ranged weapon, like crossbows, bows or guns. The point here is that if you throw a dagger, the reason you can apply sneak attack to that is the finesse property, not that you made a ranged attack with it (since that in itself is insufficient). This is why thrown javelins can't benefit from sneak attack, for example. (Though I realize this example could be misleading, since javelin uses strength for throwing, however that's not what makes the difference, one could throw a dagger using strength too and still benefit from sneak attack.) I think the situation where one might be able to sneak attack with an improvised weapon is when the DM decides that the object used resembles a weapon which would normally have the finesse property. This will also be relevant from Sage Advice: 'What does “melee weapon attack” mean: a melee attack with a weapon or an attack with a melee weapon? It means a melee attack with a weapon. Similarly, “ranged weapon attack” means a ranged attack with a weapon. ...' So this is why a ranged weapon attack in itself does not mean it qualifies; it's not necessarily a ranged weapon. bottom line: It's not using dex that matters, but whether the weapon has the finesse property, or is a ranged weapon (which is not the same as the attack being ranged)
@@rdigeri In that case, you might be right. If you had glassblowers tool proficiency, i wonder if you could create dagger-like vials for your acid. That would still probably qualify as needing DM discretion though. Either way, the concept of bonus action ranged sneak attack that you can do in tandem with any other action wouldnt sit well with me as DM regardless, as compared to something like 2-weapon fighting which is melee only, requires you to Attack with your action first, and normally restricts what kinds of weapons you can use (having to use shortswords over rapiers unless you take Duel Wielder). Most bonus action attacks are either limited use, or have some kind of caveat, so getting one that breaks this mould on a rogue of all things isnt really balanced. Part of the rogues design was having a limited window to get their sneak attack off, an all your eggs in one basket sorta deal.
@@Calavid dagger-like vial sounds fun, could work if the DM allows it. (two weapon fighting does state: "If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it." So technically it works ranged, it just runs into the issue of drawing the weapons, unless you have the Thrown Weapon Fighting Style.) I suppose the question whether Thief would be too strong with this use of their Use an Object is another question, but the intent doesn't seem to align with it.
I know this video is a year old, but I would like to correct a mistake you made in your reading of the rules for Sneak Attack. The prerequisite for applying Sneak Attack damage to an attack is not that it is a ranged weapon attack, but that it is an attack made with a ranged weapon. Alchemist's fire, Acid, etc. are not ranged weapons, they are improvised weapons which you used to make a ranged weapon attack. This is an important distinction which prevents them from being able to be used with Sneak Attack. That said, it wouldn't really break the game to let your players use them together anyways, considering how horrible the Rogue class is. It needs all the help it can get.
The Sneak Attack description doesn't mention a damage type limitation. There are plenty of other limitations, but not damage type. I can see how someone could infer the damage type limitation due to the finesse and ranged weapon limitation.
Here's a fun thing about the Thief! Or rather, not the thief, but the Hadozee race. Even after the nerf, the Hadozee gets a lite version of Fast Hands as a racial via their Dextrous Feet. And they don't even need their hands!
While it's a cool racial trait, if it doesn't allow for the Use an Object action specifically/mechanically, it can't do what Fast Hands does. The way the Hadozee's Dextrous Feet feature was written in the UA would've taken the Thief by storm. WotC clearly decided not to do that, and I think they were correct in doing so.
You put up the description which states "When an object requires an action for its use, you take the Use an Object action." But then you read "Use an object means if there is a non-magical item that says it requires an action to use an effect with that item then you use the use an object action." 1) The text doesn't mention "non-magical item", you inserted that criteria 2) The text describing "Use an Object" does NOT say "when the description of an object includes 'As an action, you can,,,'" it says "When an object requires an action for its use". Many objects require an action to use, such as a spyglass or a whistle, but don't mention "As an action" in their descriptions. Clearly you can use those items with a "Use an Object" action. 3) The rules clearly delimit what is an what is not an attack. For instance, "A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal." With your logic, a familiar CAN attack as long as it's with a thrown vial of acid, holy water or alchemist's fire? Any action which requires an attack roll, is an Attack and is limited for game balance. Actions which require an action but not a contested attack roll, such as spreading caltrops or ball bearings are not attacks and would be classified under "Use an Object".
I promise I've read all the rules, clarifying tweets, and errata on this. I'm trying to save everyone the time to decipher some of the murkiest rules in 5e. 1. The ruling for Fast Hands not working with magic items is specifically outlined in the DMG and the basic rules for activating an item. J-Craw even says as much: www.sageadvice.eu/can-a-thief-rogue-use-their-fast-hands-ability-to-use-bracer-of-flying-daggers-as-a-bonus-action/ 2. If you want to open it up to items that don't say they require an action to use, that's up to you. Most people seem to allow those non-action items as free actions, though some items are clearly written poorly (healer's kit, manacles). 3. It's not *my* logic; It's how 5e is written. But familiars say they can't attack, which is different from the attack action. It's clear that they can use the Use an Object action but they cannot make attacks. Your final statement's intent is unclear to me.
I think the premise here might be off. Once an object becomes an improvised weapon, it requires the Attack Action and is not the Use an Object action. You can only Use an Object if its an object and not considered a weapon. I think you can get away with throwing a smoke grenade as a bonus action cause there's no targets but throwing a fragmentation grenade or alchemist's fire or acid... I would not allow that as a bonus action since they are weapons not objects.
Not all attacks are made with the attack action. Use an Object is for items that say they require an action to activate; some of those items activate and include an improvised weapon attack. Those items you specified are not weapons, they are items that require the Use an Object action to use. I personally believe the rules would be better if these rules were clearer and made more sense when objects with special effects were used with the attack action as improvised weapons instead of with Use an Object, but this is how they work now.
@@fortunatus1 sure thing! Use an Object is described on PHB page 193. If you read items like acid, they say you use an action to use them, just like the Use an Object action says. Then part of that use is to make an improvised weapon attack. "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action."
Follow along with my article: www.flutesloot.com/thief-rogue-subclass-dnd-5e-deep-dive/?
Contested point: it has been supposed that Sneak Attack is not compatible with ranged improvised weapon attacks. Use an Object: "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn." To me, this seems clear that what I like best about the Thief holds true. If anything, it challenges the assertion that Sneak Attack can apply to the ranged improvised weapon attack, which I'm fine with because getting Sneak Attack with the improvised weapon isn't necessary (just nice to have as an option). Ask your DM if they'd allow you to use Sneak Attack with a ranged improvised weapon attack. You can still enjoy the Thief if the answer is 'no' from your DM. :)
Here is what I said on the matter in my article that may have not been clearly portrayed in the video: "Depending on your DM, you might be able to Sneak Attack by making a ranged weapon attack with an improvised weapon using your Dexterity! You can definitely use Dexterity as your attack modifier, but your DM will decide if improvised weapons count as "ranged weapons" per the Sneak Attack rules. Your thrown improvised weapons will certainly be ranged attacks. In my opinion, they should count as ranged weapons even though they don't appear on the weaponry table in the PHB."
Commenter "There's No Race Like Gnome" (great name) pointed out the following: "The DMG chapter on magic items, under Activating an Item -> Spells, explains how to calculate the DC for spells cast from items. It actually uses the specific example of a Thief with Use Magic Device. Basically, your spellcasting ability modifier is just +0."
Errata to the video: "A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don’t have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you’re a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply" (DMG, p.141)
Thief’s reflexes specifically states it can’t be used when surprised.
@@freekedit7007 I missed your comment (and the last sentence of the feature). I've corrected myself. Thank you!
Rather fun use of Fast Hands, had someone steal a magic ring mid combat. Turns out it was a ring of feather fall... The bad guy 'knew' that he had the ring so as an escape option, decided to jump off a cliff confident his ring would protect him.
LOL that's perfect
@@FlutesLoot it was hilarious.
In my view the Use Magic Device feature allows the Thief to use Spell Scrolls. All of them, ignoring all race, class and *level* requirements! So the Thief potentially becomes a better spellcaster than the Arcane Trickster...
I interpret the Thief's use of scrolls in the same way. It's one of the only ways that ignoring "level" is relevant for Use Magic Device. A Thief can cast from any scroll without having to roll.
As I wrote in my spell scroll article, "...regarding spell level in spell scrolls. It is difficult for a character to activate a spell scroll that contains a spell of level that exceeds the character’s spellcasting ability (higher-level spell than what the character can cast with its spell slots). The DMG requires characters in this scenario to roll ability checks with spellcasting modifiers to attempt successful casting. On a failure, the spell within the scroll fades away forever as the spell fails to take effect."
If the Thief can ignore level requirements, I'd say that works with spell scrolls!
@@FlutesLoot It's a monster ability if your DM allows it (and gives you some fun scrolls to play with). Also amazing on an Artificer - who get criticised for being half casters but who can freely use all spell scrolls as well from level 14 (Magic Item Savant).
Solidifies the rogue as the overall best class really. They are past experts in every skill, casters, damage dealers. The only issue is number of attacks.
@@FlutesLoot This seems to be the correct interpretation based on how the feature got reworded in onednd
@@Razdasoldier good point!
There's also the fun bit where you can set Hunting Traps with Fast Hands, anchor and all. Hunting Traps have the same rider to stop movement when triggered, take an action to get out of, are easily reusable, and don't have a size limit. While the standard chain length for the anchor is 3ft, you can build, mod, or commission traps with longer or shorter chains, thereby altering how far your victim can move without trying to escape.
Lol I actually had recorded a bit about this in the video but it didn't make the cut. Hunting trap's wording is so weird since it doesn't describe how to anchor it, just set it. It could be a useful tool if the DM is cool with it and Fast Hands. :) I do talk about hunting trap in my article.
just be aware of the weight. 25 pounds might be heavy enought that you cannot use strength as your dump stat anymore...
@@Konkajou this is why you try and get your hands on a bag of holding as fast as possible
I've always wanted to use a Hunting trap as an improvised weapon so it latches onto somebody, and then cast "Heat Metal" on said hunting trap.
As far as I know there's no real rules for the use of a grappling hook in 5e. I can imagine your DM ruling it requiring a Use an Object action, which the Thief Rogue can do with Fast Hands. Which would work nicely in tandem with Second Story Work.
The Rogue's Blindsense feature at level 14 synergizes nicely with your Smoke Greandes too.
Yes! Blindsense + Smoke Grenade is fantastic, and I'd love to see DMs enable grappling hooks.
My first Rogue was a thief and It's still my favorite subclass to this day, I didn't even know how crazy it could be I just loved the subclass. I'm excited to bring him back in a future campaign with what I just learned.
It can be so much fun to play. I love the Rogue playstyle. I'm glad I could inspire you for when you bring back your character! :)
Second story work is actually really useful inside a city, forest, or anywhere with climbable objects, especially if there are opponents there shooting down. If you take the Mobile feat or have Haste and Longstrider cast on you then you're effectively a parkour expert, climbing at full speed. A base 30 speed with Mobile becomes 40, Longstrider it becomes 50, Haste it's 100. That's 100 feet moving up a wall.
I agree that Second-Story Work is very useful. Climbing can be as good as flight in many circumstances.
I was thinking more of archers on a rampart or rooftop firing down. Parkour up the wall and attack them. They have to draw swords or do a ranged attack while in melee with you, which is a bad time for them. Either you cut them down or they have to stop firing at your friends to deal with you. Since you would have the Mobile feat you could freely move after attacking too as you don't provoke opportunity attacks from any creature you've attacked this turn. They'll have to chase you, an opponent faster than them, while your friends make their way up safely .
Of course you could also throw some acid or alchemist's fire on them too while you're at it.
The DMG chapter on magic items, under Activating an Item -> Spells, explains how to calculate the DC for spells cast from items. It actually uses the specific example of a Thief with Use Magic Device. Basically, your spellcasting ability modifier is just +0.
Oh! I missed that detail. Thank you for pointing it out. I'll have to look that up and update my article.
I actually ran a thief through a campaign up to level 14 and I will say, up until towards the end, he was the most reliable character in the party and I abused the crap out of fast hands. Made an improvised Molotov Cocktail with a flask of oil and a handkerchief to expose an invisible enemy, combined a piton and a length of rope to save an ally from an enemy who was flying over a chasm to drop him(threw the piton attached rope at my ally to catch.) and also caught a flying tiefling using Second Story work.
Clutch! That sounds like a creative, fun experience as a Thief.
@@FlutesLoot Oh definitely. What makes it even more hilarious is that I am typically a caster player. I have a lot of characters in my head that are primarily casters(personal favorites are wizards and bards) and with those, I typically play conservative at lower levels, using my magic at critical points rather than all the time. It's a common trap for players to only focus on the limited abilities of the class and almost never look at the miscellaneous stuff that's also in their pack, which to me is doing the items a disservice. Can do quite a bit with your stuff if you just think about it a little.
Fun fact gunpowder has been around for a very long time and would be around during a medieval fantasy period since it was around during our own as well alongside real primitive versions of guns which were essentially a long metal tube with packed gunpowder a projectile and a way to ignite it it was very short range with the only way to increase said range was to add more gunpowder which typically blew up the bamboo versions of these weapons before they moved the design over to metal, remember this is a universe where gnomes and dwarves exist gunpowder absolutely exists (including a magical variant called rune powder which was made by gnomes and is typically way more volatile than regular gunpowder to the point where a vial is enough to destroy a boulder) and this exists in the main 5e world forgotten realms
I do love rogues but having played more powerful classes I always worry about being able to contribute. Next time I roll up a character I may try this. Thanks.
I highly recommend giving it a shot. Rogues may lack some of the powerhouse tools that other classes have, but they are fun to play once you settle into their style. I've played more Rogue characters than any other class because I enjoy them. :)
@@FlutesLoot my first character was an arcane trickster and that was a blast. I should have said I worry about playing a thief specifically.
Thanks, man. This is great. I am playing a Thief Rogue in Curse Of Strahd right now, and it was actually my DM who pointed me to this video. So I suspect that he will at least be open to the idea of this additional damage option. We'll see. Weeeeee!
Fantastic! Please let me know how it goes. I definitely know you can get your hands on a few interesting items for Thief Rogues in that campaign ;)
I also have a Curse of Strahd video or two that your DM may enjoy if they haven't watched em alreayd.
@@FlutesLoot We are pretty far along in Strahd by now, and my character already has 6 levels in Rogue (Thief) and 4 in Sorcerer. But I've got a few things that might be handy (a box of scorpions, for instance), and I will keep my eyes out for more stuff that I can use in this way. I will mention your Strahd videos my DM. Who knows, it might have been looking at those that led him to this Thief Rogue video. I have no idea how much of our campaign so far is stock and how much is custom. But he can probably get some good ideas from them.
Other thing weird about alchemist fire is that also dont state how long it burns... so, if someone have permanent regeneration feature, you can incapacitate him, rurn him on fire with an alchemist fire and it will burn forever
The item didnt say how long burns, just thay you can use an action to extinguish the flames... so... if you somehow gain inmunity to fire, you can set yourself on a green fire to intimidate enemies... or to light up the darknoath on your way home at night
It is pretty wacky! I love the idea of a fire-immune, immolated character haha!
Fun bit of info, if you're a pact of the chain warlock with investment of the chain master any dc your familiar causes can be your spell save dc meaning stuff like caltrops or ball bearings have a scaling dc for your familiar (go imp because they can be constantly invisible while setting up traps on their turn without breaking invisibility because they aren't making attacks, also an imp can use grenades without breaking invisibility) now what you really want is the flock of familiars spell because it'll allow you to summon 3 imps at level 3 (+1 every spell level past 2nd) which all benefit from your Invocations and pact boons now typically you could use this to get a couple more attacks at the cost of your bonus action on your turn however I see multiple invisible creatures throwing grenades (with the option of still doing the multiple attacks with a bonus action if you want however I should mention this would break invisibility which is a direct invite to the dm saying "please hit these creatures" and I'd rather not spend an additional 10gp on top of the costs of making grenades to resummon an imp so you can summon more imps)
I've got an idea grenade throwing rogue/Artificer. I'd use starting gold to try and get the bare minimum of equipment for a rogue and spend the rest on the regular bombs since you buy 10 for 1 gold.
The little bombs aren't very effective, but they are a BARGAIN! :P I'd love to see them played.
Honorable mention to Conjure Wizard 2. It allows you to use your action to summon a vial of something and bonus action to use it.
Notable: It does also give you a spell casting modifier so it makes the things that use it work better.
@@Razdasoldier very fun :)
Really loved this video. DND Daily got me interested in Fast Hands but this video helped me get really excited to play a Thief. I've always loved playing spellcasters because the arsenal of tools for creativity which made me think martial characters will be boring and limiting. This unlocks a whole new dimension of creativity and I'm very very excited to play one in my upcoming pirate campaign.
Well said; the Thief unlocks a whole new playstyle and a different kind of creativity in the game. :D
You sir, just made me love theif even more than i already do. I a bit new to dnd still, amd had no idea about being able to do that stuff with acid and the alchemist fire. You just told me how to make my lv. 17 theif/lv.3 battle smith artificer(assuming campaign gets to max level) so much more fun to play
I'm so glad to hear that! Thief is so fun. Go get em!
The thief has been my favorite/favored class since 2nd ed, i do enjoy trying out other classes but theres a 90% chance if im making a new character im gonna be the thief in the party
this is dependant on your DM, but another multiclass is conjuration wizard. the 2nd level ability can let you just make acid vials, holy water, bombs, etc, granted alchemist fire wont work cause it can only deal damage once but yea, also it fits with a thief thematically, u get caught for stealing and thrown in jail, the guard locks you up and you saw the key he used. boom summon the key and escape
I hadn't thought of using Minor Conjuration in this way! Definitely DM dependent.
I'm playing my first dnd game and I'm a level 4 Rouge Theif! This helped me a lot! Thank you! :)
You're welcome, and good luck playing :)
Imagine being paired with someone who give you Haste, or can weaponize your reaction. I would stay very far away of enemies though, since you can't use your defensive kit.
Yeah! My DPR calculations did not assume such perks, but they would help a lot! :D
You could get 4 Sneak Attacks in the first round. It takes a lot for this to happen. Be lvl 17 and have 2 Battle Masters. You attack, they command your reaction to attack, you attack with 2nd Initiative, 2nd Battle Master command. Sneak Attacks can be used once A turn. 36d6 (at lvl 17) plus whatever bonus and effects.
Definitely an interesting look at a subclass many people ignore.
My goal was to give it a second look and make it more interesting :)
Oh man hat of wizardry on a rogue nice!
That sounds really fun haha
finally some love for the best subclass in the game 😁
Absolutely
You get extra points for the Blazing Saddles reference. ;)
I'll gladly receive those points :P
Add in Minor Conjuration from a wizard dip. Always have your favorite combat trick ready to go.
Totally!
Thinking of using an alchemist with this, being able to lob shit with tavern brawler as a bonus action while using spells that are flavored as them tossing vials of shit
That's certainly what I would do! I'd also recommend checking out the Alchemist class that Indestructoboy is about to post on the DM's Guild.
@@FlutesLoot what do you think about combining this with the mobile feat? Hit the enemy with your action, chain them up or drop a bomb with you ba and then run away without having them hit you with an oa
@@AngelCanseco1 If I wanted to use melee tactics with the Thief, I'd probably take Mobile.
@@FlutesLoot works well with a sling funnily enough, sling has a very short range of 30, so you can lob potions and also use a sling attack. Midgard heroes improves a lot on slings for kobolds and even whips get a great upgrade
One thing you didn’t get into very deeply is you get to sleight of hand as a bonus to attack… yes, but you can us it to actually sleight of hand. If you know what a mage components looks like you could be stealing the shit out of that in the middle of combat. I suppose it’d be up to your dm to allow because I find rogues in general get screwed when dms decide to put realism on them specifically when fighters can heal themselves and monks can run on water.
Technically though stealing potions and spell components in the middle of combat could be super useful if your dm doesn’t make it useless. I’ve always wanted to play a rogue that does sneaky shit like that in combat like shackle you hand to someone else’s or other actually sneaky rogue things that seem to have gotten more and more out of favor
Yes, and the BA for Sleight of Hand is something I talk about more in my article, and especially in another article/video about taking down archmages. Taking arcane focuses and components can win the battle.
I don't think improvised weapons enable sneak attack though - they are neither ranged nor finesse weapons, although you can make a ranged attack with them
Sneak attack is with finesse weapons or a ranged weapon. Considering that there is no "Ranged" property on weapons, the only reasons you can tell them apart from non-ranged weapons is the range between parenthesis. Which improvised weapons have. You can argue that this does not count though, as otherwise you would be attacking at disadvantage any enemies within 5 ft with your improvised weapon.
It looks like no, they don't count for sneak attack. However, this entire topic is not clear at all. For example, you make an improvised attack with alchemist fire, but do you make the initial improvised weapon attack of 1d4 and then add the fire damage? Or does the fire damage replace the improvised weapon damage? The answer changes how using the catapult spell works when throwing alchemist fire too. It is very unclear.
Interesting enough, one part of sharp shooter cares only about making ranged attacks. So you can technically take it and keep yourself at a 60ft distance without disadvantage when throwing your alchemist fire.
Sounds fun! You're not the only one who likes the Theif subclass. The dungeon dudes gave it a pretty good rating too. Theirs was not as high as yours but encouraging the subclass nonetheless.
It's one of the most unique subclasses that interacts with some of the least-used 5e game mechanics; I love that :)
Harengon works great for the lvl 17 feature add the alert feat (+16 to iniative should be enough) and a flexible dm and you can sneak attack 4 times in the first round. In this case there are just are so many great feats to take that you may feel like there aren't enough ASI's for you to also raise your stats. To name some great pick: alert, tavern brawler, sharpshooter, magic initiate/fae touched/shadow touched (to set a spell save dc now that you can cast a spell), mobile, tough, resilient constitution and warcaster. (Just in case you find an item with some really good concentration spells in it)
Harengon would be fantastic, and those feats are all on the table! It will depend on the player's desire to specialize. Will they want to maximize the efficiency of attacks with improvised weapons or focus on securing opportunity attacks each round? It's all up to the player.
15:23 If you don't have a spellcasting ability, then the DC is 10 + Prof Bonus.
It is in the spellcasting rules in the PHB somewhere.
You're right, a few other comments sorted me out on that one.
What about Sharpshooter w/ Tavern Brawler as a Thief Rogue? That gets you +40ft on your improvised range and depending on what you're throwing, you could get advantage on your crossbow attack which you then apply the penalty for the bonus damage from SS + sneak attack.
That's a great point! I had not considered Sharpshooter's benefits with the range of ranged weapons. I'm going to add that to my article summary for feat benefits.
Their rogue is the first 5e class I played and I love it so much!
I love to hear it!
You forgot the most important magical item in the game, spell scrolls
" If the spell is on your class's spell list, you can use an Action to read the scroll and cast its spell without having to provide any of the spell's Components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible."
I definitely meant to mention spell scrolls. Sorry if I forgot them! Being able to use any spell scroll can be huge.
The thief along with the old Archivist on a Mark of Scribing gnome. I make all of my own quick hands scrolls, but i have a stockpile of others...
Those are Eberron options you're referencing, right? I'm not as familiar with those.
@@FlutesLoot the dragonmarked gnome is yes. The Archivist was like first publication of the class I believe. If you are not making scrolls constantly the subclass is sorta meh.
I'm almost positive it is NOT meant to ignore attunement. It specifically says Class and Level requirements. You can use things like a Wand Of Magic Missle that take an Action, or even read a Scroll that has a 1-minute Casting Time or something... but not use an Attunement item without Attuning.
That would be strange to me since those requirements are only mentioned in attunement. The feature would do almost nothing if it didn't work for attunement. I'll look it up later to see if there is an answer.
I think you have misunderstood one another. The way Flutes talked about the feature in the video could have given the impression that he believes the feature subverts the need to attune at all, but that could be a misunderstanding.
The feature does ignore the Attunment restrictions to race and class, however it doesn't ignore Attunment entirely.
So a Thief could attune to a holy avenger without needing to be a Paladin. Also, there is a consensus that Thief Rogues can use the Holy Avenger as if they had 18 levels in Paladn (gaining the full 30ft aura). I'm not personally too sure about that but it could be considered a "level requirement"
@@Calavid ah you may be right. What I meant to portray is that attunement rules still apply, but some of the states restrictions on whom can attune to an item is ignored by the Thief. Still need to attune to use the items in question.
I'm currently tryna make a rogue that's basically a mischievous Halfling saboteur, with a Crossbow, Explosives, and Booby-Traps. I think Thief may just be the best choice for this character.
Thief gets my vote!
very interesting take, thanks for the video!
Sure thing, thanks for the comment :)
I think you can also apply poison with the use object action.
Yeah absolutely
Enjoyed the heck out of this. I'm rolling one up for the next campaign as a PC, or its being added as an NPC in my current campaign. Perhaps both?
Certainly both! :P
Wondering what you think of the 2024 Thief? This video a magnificent by the way. Great job!
Thank you! I just got the 2024 book and haven't combed through it yet, but I've seen the Thief features, and they seem to be an improvement all around. I hope they can still toss bombs, though.
Unfortunately you can’t sneak attack with oil/acid/etc. for both RAW and balance reasons.
Other people have talked about the RAW, but I think the balance reason is even more important.
On the surface it seems fine since it’s just gives a second chance for sneak attack to trigger, which is similar enough to the free advantage that rogue’s get from cunning action. The problem here is with readied actions. The thief can throw their oil, get a sneak attack, and then use their main action to ready an attack action. Then on another player’s turn they can use their reaction to make a second attack and get a second instance of sneak attack. Normally a rogue needs to have haste casted on them to do this. It’s a big deal, but perhaps not gamebreaking depending on your table.
For instance, using oil and a light crossbow at level 5 with tavern brawler the thief does an average of 0.6*(2.5+4+10.5) + 0.6*(4.5+4+10.5) = 21.6 damage.
By contrast a PAM and GWM barbarian does 0.49*(2.5+3+10+2) + 0.49*2*(5.5+3+10+2) = 28.7
In my mind the extra damage you’re giving the rogue is fair when considering what other optimized martial are doing, but you’d definitely have to think before allowing that in your game.
Yep, well said.
i like the fact that at level 13 a rogue can wear the robe of archmagi as their best armor, by having 15 + dex and the strong magic resistance, also giving +2 on dc bonus and stuff for staff possibly if it stacks, do not know about that tho.
Like imagine this scene:
TAKE DOWN THE MAGE!
Rogue with his knife ready to stab some people in close combat
I also love that :)
A lot of people don't understand why rogues get longsword proficiency, because they don't get to sneak attack with it if it doesn't have the finnesse property. I don't know the reason either but I do know that there are magic longswords that rogues can sneak attack with.
The sunblade (has the lowest rarety at rare but I would a +2 longsword anyday. As that's the biggest damage that rogues can get for melee weapons), sunsword (sunblade variety), moonblade (can have the finnesse property rolled onto it) and the Dawnbringer all have the finnesse property and can work with rogue sneak attack.
The d10 from a longsword also works nicely with half-orc brutal critical and there racial feat. (I wish was a finnesse warpick so you could add the piercer feat too! That would be on a crit 1d10 for the weapon + 1d10 because it's a crit + 1d10 from half-orc + 1d10 from piercer + 2d10 from the racial feat "the text of the feat talks about on a normal hit you can choose to add this so that's doubled on a crit, right and it provides an extra opportunities too sneak attack" for glorius total of 6d10 + sneak attack)
Interesting point!
Use Magic Device allows you to use magic items but does not give you proficiency in it, another problem is when use spellscrolls if you are try to cast a spell from a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your Spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully; And as a Thief you spellcasting is 0.
1 lvl deep in War/Storm Domain cleric will give proficiency in all Armors, Shield and Weapons, also give Spellcasting for itens that require that you use your own DC, and make it ease to use spellscrolls.
I believe the intent of ignoring character level in the Use Magic Device feature is suited to using spell scrolls without having to roll to succeed in using them.
I have a character concept where it's a Holy Knight that isn't a cleric or paladin. The build is a character of any race (I don't believe in racial optimization), 3 levels of Thief Rogue for fast hands (bonus if you can convince your GM to allow you to use Sleight of Hand checks on battle as a bonus action to disarm and steal important items in combat), 5 levels of champion fighter for the easy crits and thematic effect. For the Fighting Style you want to use the Unarmed fighting style. Having your fists be a d8 of damage and able to grapple as a FREE ACTION is quite good. For your ASI or Feat it's your choice of a stat increase or grabbing the Healer feat. (This is how you can help heal your party thru non magical means). For a Background use either acolyte for a more church based adventure or Knight for a more kingdom based one.
This sounds like what I previously pictured a Monk to be back in pre-5e days. Very cool.
These modern grenades are considered modern weapons, I'm not sure I would allow them
Magic Mini Fireballs in a bottle then ;)
@@FlutesLoot Haha, I catch your drift: Reflavoring is indeed awesome! But to me, flavor is less of an issue than the fact that these modern weapons are quite a bit stronger than their medieval counterparts. I mean, craftable grenades that deal 5D6 piercing damage play kinda in the same ballpark as hunting rifles that deal 2D10 piercing damage.
Making a Ranged Weapon Attack does not equal making an Attack with a Ranged Weapon. Throwing something is a ranged weapon attack indeed, however, the thrown object does not become a ranged weapon simply because it is thrown. This means that sneak attack does not apply when you throw a vial of acid.
I agree that it can be interpreted this way, and probably should be. I encourage players in my article to ask their DMs how they'll rule it. It's not actually a huge deal for this subclass and its damage output.
Thos would mean that a thrown dagger does not do sneak attack
3:30 - it’s not a ranged weapon tho right? Isn’t it still an ‘improvised weapon’, regardless of how you are choosing to use it?
That's the debatable part. It's a ranged weapon attack, but not a ranged weapon. The DM would need to approve Sneak Attack with ranged improvised weapon attacks, but it's not of critical importance to the Thief to deal SA with IWs. I talk about this nuance more in my article than I did in the video.
Im about to start playing my Yuan Ti lv4 thief rogue, lv 2 shepherd druid character with the mobile feat
Shes gonna be bonus action dashing all over the place, and casting longstrider
It got insane
She can run up walls like a ninja, running up walls much much faster than other characters can move on the ground
Which works really well in our campaign because we are doing lots of heists adventures
Our party has an alchemist jug, so I'm going to beg our artificer for vials of acid
Another party member found a ring of jumping, and I'm going to try and find some good magical loot to trade her with
If our GM will allow this character to have boots of speed, it truely gets disgusting how fast she can move
Sounds SO fun! :D
Hey, I… got another question…
Use magic Device allows rogues to use Any magic item, but many of these use your spell casting modifier.
I understand that means your modifier is +0, but does that change if you take something like the “Magic initiate” Feat?
If you have any spellcasting modifier, you'll use that. Magic Initiate is a great way to gain a spellcasting modifier.
Expertise athletics
Shove action
Fast action to use a rope
There you go. Capturing somebody in all of one round.
With reliable talent, even with dumped strength you're always rolling nearly 20 to shove, more at higher levels and especially if you didn't dump it.
Hog-tied! Since there aren't rules for tying up an active enemy, your DM might not even require you to shove them :P I think the assumption is that they'd be restrained.
Rope also only has 2 hitpoints and can be burst with a DC 17 Strength check, so that might make it less fantastic.
While we're at it, we can talk about manacles since their description is mega-vague. Maybe you could manacle someone mid-combat!
I would be inclined to use the arcane trickster calculation for spell save DC based on int for a thief rogue although that's not official and of course your charisma or wisdom is likely to be higher so talk to the DM
I think that's fair! Aside from that ruling, it was pointed out that there is actually a rule in the DMG for this predicament. "The DMG chapter on magic items, under Activating an Item -> Spells, explains how to calculate the DC for spells cast from items. It actually uses the specific example of a Thief with Use Magic Device. Basically, your spellcasting ability modifier is just +0."
@@FlutesLoot wouldn't it than be better to just learn 1 or 2 spells via feat (maybe 1 that requires save dc or spell attack?) Now you have a defined save dc which will make easier to cast a spell and have other fail the save.
@@woutvanostaden1299 haha yep exactly. I'd still check how a DM would interpret that, but learning even one spell might make the Thief's effectiveness improve for magic items.
yes my fav rougue class actuially I played a detictive cop thief who was basicly like what if batman was a cop
Playing a Thief is an incredibly unique experience that lends itself well to creative players :)
Now I REALLY want to play a thief!
Then I've done my job! :P
Am I missing something or could you ready your action after using the bonus action item use to get a second sneak attack during the round?
wait, does this work?😯
@@MarceloNashiro If you can find a way to attack outside of your action, absolutely. I play a battlemaster/swashbuckler atm and regularly use either action surge to ready one action, or a maneuver like brace or riposte to get off a second sneak attack. Completely legal rules as written. If your DM has an issue with it just add up the damage a great weapon master barbarian or a sharpshooter archer does over an adventuring day and show them that compared to yours, they will realise you're just barely keeping up and chill.
Correct! If your DM allows you to get Sneak Attack with ranged improvised weapons (definitely ask first), you could then use your action to use the Ready action and make an attack for another dose of Sneak Attack during the round using your reaction.
Should probably get the DM to rule on what the result would be on throwing Sand or Pepper in their face.
This exact question should be part of every session zero. No doubt.
i would not rule that alchemist fire would not be applicable and I don't think crawford would either. The wording does not say when you make a ranged attack it says an "Attack with a RANGED weapon" you can apply sneak attack. Bows and the like have the "Ranged Weapon" Subtype as a classification. Alchemist fire does not. Plus it makes little sense why the contents of a vial of acid become more lethal regardless of where you hit them on the body its still acid or fire. Piercing weapons however can penetrate deeper into the body depending on where they hit is landed. "improvised weapon" is its own subtype attributed to an object you use as a weapon, by weapon does not get the "ranged" or "thrown" property suddenly just because i choose to throw it.
Totally reasonable
Love the idea of thief alchemist.
I completely agree. It's a great way to play the subclass.
@@FlutesLoot Great multiclass too 😀
oil lasts for a minute on direct hit, 2 rounds if on the ground when lit. think soaked into clothing. think it and alchemist fire should cause disadvantage for putting out the fire but thats just me.
I wish it were clearer
@@FlutesLoot i thought that yesterday, then remembered theyd be more likely to give the oil a pronoun than play the game they make rules for.
The best use of Fast Hands is with Artificer's Spell Storing item, assuming the item you use is a non-magical tool. This will come up again whenever Hadozee are released.
The Hadozee will be an interesting addition to the game!
Hey just thought I would point this out about your dpr. In the later levels did you account for the fact that they can do sneak attack at least twice per round when they hit level 17 and possibly 3 with attacks of opportunity?
Hi Kyle! I factored in opportunity attack chance, but only with a 5% chance since I'm not very optimistic about getting opportunity attacks in a given round. It's not a scientific 5%, just an estimate that I thought wouldn't inflate the DPR too much but would still consider it.
I did not factor in the two turns in the first round of combat because I didn't think of a way to calc that in a way that I'd be happy with. I think it's safe to say that we'd be 50% over baseline factoring it in though.
Basically, I'm ultra-reserved on these calcs and they still look great. :) If you think I can improve these assumptions, I'd happily hear the ideas. I still need to wrap my head around DPR when resources are spent for a group that has one combat per day vs a group with eight per day (gonna take a while for me to get there).
Dumb question, but I can't find an answer anywhere. Can you use the Interact with an Object Action to doff someone else's shield? I know you can't use the Disam Action to get them to drop it while donned, Crawford has already spoken on that. Just seems odd that you can take away their weapon or focus, but not their shield.
The short answer is no.
Unlike weapons, a shield requires an action to gain its benefits or unequip it. It's not specified if it's an established action to do it, so it's a unique action. Rule otherwise if you wish, but a shield would be less useful if any commoner could walk up and interact to remove it. That feels more odd to me.
awsome content ty,
i need a reliable pricing table for these mundane "fast hands" usable items, any pointers ?
I'd start here and then possibly make my own Excel sheet: www.dndbeyond.com/equipment
What does everyone think about the new changes with the Expert Class Thief in play testing?
So far, I hate it. I'll probably stream about it soon.
@@FlutesLoot I’m going to be real with you - I saw this video for the first time 3 days ago, then saw the Thief rework and now I’m trying to reconcile your brilliant subclass breakdown with this set of potential changes.
@@TylerCummings6 I appreciate you thinking of me in these dark times, lol
Level is brought up with spell scrolls.
Also the holy avenger.
Thief can chuck two beers a round as long they both aren't magical? Even tough it is literally identical to drink them either way and you can clearly drink both if onenof them is only magical?
What is the reasoning behind that you can drink twice from water skin but you can't drink twice from water skin? (Just fill a water skin with liquids from healing potion...)
If you think double healing potion is too strong how double bear trap make sense? You can literally hammer down two bear traps but can't drink two magical beers 😂
I believe this is a case where it's a game thing, not a realism thing.
@@FlutesLoot Yes, it is just a Balance question.
But it can raise hilarious moments when player says "I use my bonus action to interact with it." Rules as Written if it is Magical you can't do so 😏 so you will ALWAYS know if an object is magical or not 😉 just a loop hole within the rules. Tough we agree we don't cheese like that becasue it is not that fun. Also if trap has magical components you can't pull the leaver because it would be interacting with magic. Can't open doors if they have magical locks because technically it would be action to interract with magical item 😆
14:14 gd, what a window
😅
I've been playing a Rogue Thief in a homebrew Greyhawk campaign. Started at level 1. Currently at level 12. He was a homeless street urchin foster care kid. He does steal though... from all the corrupt rich and wealthy people in power in the big cities. He doesn't keep the money however. He gives it away to all the orphanages to take care of the kids.
Heart of gold with sticky fingers :P
@@FlutesLoot I did however go Variant Human. Took Crossbow Expert for the feat. (Characters background was he learned to master the Hand Crossbow hanging out with a goblin gang as a little kid) Took the Sharpshooter feat at level 4. Bumped DEX +2 at level 8. Piercer feat at level 10 (DEX +1), and then finally maxed out his DEX at level 12 with the Skill Expert feat.
I love playing this character. I never fail Sleight of Hand or Stealth checks. And I rarely ever miss with my Hand Crossbow. Great class. So much utility.
@@KyleKoz13 that's what I love about Rogues. They're my style.
Love the thief. I did hear they were going to nerf it?
It's completely changed in the One D&D UA. It disappoints me
Serious question: Can the Elves’ updated Trance ability allow them to gain proficiency with Improvised Weapons, or perhaps just with throwing “grenades”/stones? Seems like that would be fairly reasonable to get as a weapon proficiency.
The Shadar-Kai can Trance to gain proficiency with weapons, so as a DM, I'd allow it for specific improvised weapons (not all). I'm not confident in an official ruling since there seems to be a difference between an actual weapon and just anything that can be an improvised weapon, but it won't break the game to allow a player to add proficiency to a few flask tosses. :)
Other idea: Commission someone to make “vials” that are DESIGNED to be thrown with groves molded along the sides for better grip or they get attached atop a club like a German grenade stick (though this may be similar enough to a hand axe, which doesn’t have Finesse, so that’s a problem).
Commissioned “vials” that resemble daggers or darts?
@@Living_Life242 now we're talkin!
Arcane trickster + fera spell = big dps
fera spell?
Does hurling a Oil Flask really do 1d4 of damage on top of soaking an enemy in oil? and the acid 1d4+2d6+DEX?
It will heavily depend on DM interpretation, but I personally rule it in the following way: if the item says the dice it rolls on impact, I'd probably use that dice instead of the default 1d4, treating it as an override of the default. If impact damage isn't specified, I'd use 1d4 default.
Sounds good
Real good
Your spell save dc as a thief is just 8 plus proficiency bonus
That's one way to do it
@@FlutesLoot That's RAW how you do it.
"A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don’t have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you’re a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply" (DMG, p.141)
@@greatgyatso5429 Tbh, I was in an airport when I saw your comment and couldn't remember if it was the RAW :P
I thought I updated this in the artcle after another similar comment, but I don't see it. Thanks for pointing it out so I can make the update!
Just a question was you inspired by uncomvetionel rogue video? Just asking as he made a similer build 4 years ago
I was not inspired by that video, but thank you for bringing it up so I can watch it! Drow Bard is not a channel I've encountered before. I'll check out their stuff with your recommendation.
Regarding grenades, you do realize that your range is 20' throwing them and the radius of the AOE is 20', right? Unless your taking disadvantage on the throw, you are just within the blast radius. Not ideal
Since grenades are not improvised attacks and they specifically say they can be thrown 60 feet, that shouldn't be a problem :)
Fragmentation Grenade: "As an action, a character can throw a grenade at a point up to 60 feet away. With a grenade launcher, the character can propel the grenade up to 120 feet away. Each creature within 20 feet of an exploding fragmentation grenade must make a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw, taking 5d6 piercing damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one."
11:20 "It is unclear to me and I haven't found an official ruling..." That's because you overlooked the last 2 lines in the description text for oil at the 11:00 mark. The last sentence states "A creature can only take this damage once per turn" and sentence preceding it implies that a flask of burning oil only burns for 2 rounds after being lit.
So, in answer to your your question lets assume the target is an Owlbear and the party is a fighter, a thief, and a wizard and Owlbear lost initiative. The fighter throws the oil flask on his turn doing 1d4 bludgeoning + STR modifier damage (based on the improvised weapon rules) and covering the Owlbear in oil. The wizard then cast Scorching Ray and successfully strikes with 3 hits doing 6d6 fire damage (2d6 for each ray) + 5 damage for the now burning oil⭐ the oil continues to burn until the end of the Wizards second round. The thief follows on his turn with the Alchemist Fire doing 1d4 bludgeoning + STR modifier (improvised weapon rule) no fire damage is done since the rules for Alchemist Fire state the target (Owlbear in this case) takes fire damage at the start of their turn, not on the turn of the character throwing the Alchemist Fire. When the Owlbear starts his next turn it takes 1d4 from the Alchemist Fire +5 for the oil. Assuming the Owlbear is just dumb and consumed by animalistic rage it never tries to put out the Alchemist Fire and instead attacks and drops the Fighter, The Wizard cast another Scorching Ray and hits twice doing 4d6 (2d6 per ray) +5 for the oil⭐ and ends his second turn, marking the end of the oil's effect. The thief throws a second Alchemist Fire doing 1d4 bludgeoning damage (improvised weapon rule) and at the start of the Owlbear's next turn it takes 2d4 fire damage from the 2 Alchemist Fires only as the oil is considered done burning at the end of the Wizard's second turn.
⭐Supposedly, there is an inconsistency with fire-based spells and only some (like Fireball and Meteor Swarm) specifically state that the spell will ignite flammable objects and spells like Scorching Ray and Flame Arrows do not specifically state that they can ignite things... So, it's possible that the oil isn't considered ignited until the start of the Owlbear's turn after getting struck by the first Alchemist Fire taking 1d4 +5 (for oil) fire damage, then 2d4 +5 (for oil) at the start of its next turn after being struck by the second Alchemist Fire, and only 2d4 at the start of its 3rd turn, since the oil effects expired.
Oops, missed the note by Jeremy Crawford at the 2:45 mark where it mentions DEX modifier as damage bonus for improvised weapons like Alchemist Fire.
I didn't overlook that. I wasn't wondering about per-turn damage. I want to know the duration, which people often conflate with the burning on the ground option, which I do not find clear. Even if someone feels confident in how they read it and apply it, it is objectively unclear for mass use.
@@FlutesLoot You must be a ADB Starfleet Battles player (if something is not SPECIFICALLY stated in the rules, it CANNOT be done in the game). 😛Either that or for some reason this detail (or more more precisely lack of detail) regarding the burn time for oil has got you stuck. 🤔 Your issue is that you believe the 2-turn burn time for oil poured on the ground is being conflated to mean that it has a 2-turn burn time when covering a creature... and for some reason you find that duration unsuitable, and that there has to be a specific burn duration to reflect the particular situation of an oil-covered creature vs. an oil covered patch of ground.
This is one of those things where individual DM's and players could potentially make logical arguments for or against longer or shorter burn time based on the situation, real-world physics and chemistry behind fire science, and a whole host of details that WOTC doesn't cover in the game rules... which is why they leave it up to the DM's to make the call.
Imagine if a player character was the one struck by oil and then lit by a fired-based attack, how do you think that argument would go between a DM and a player who knows that a second turn of taking 5 damage from burning oil and another hit could drop his character?
PC: "I was splashed, there's no way the whole pint of oil got on me, it shouldn't burn for 2 turns."
DM: "Some of the oil would have soaked into your clothing and that would technically start to burn with the oil"
PC: "I'm wearing full plate, its metal and cant catch on fire."
DM: "Full plate has a suit of padded cloth armor under the chainmail and plates, the oil can reach the cloth through the gaps in the plates and chain links."
PC: "But we got caught in the rain just before entering the goblin cave, and it would still be wet and can't catch on fire."
DM: "Remember the Wizard used Prestidigitation to dry out everyone so their equipment wouldn't get ruined."
PC: "Can I put the flames out before taking the 5 damage next turn?"
DM: "You can try to do Stop, Drop, and Roll for 10-20 (1d10+10) rounds (1-2 minutes), you wont take damage from the burning oil, but you'd be prone and unable to move more than 5 feet or take any other actions until the fire is out."
In this case the reality of the portion of the splash that missed the character is countered by the reality of other fuel (cloth underpadding) for the fire. Using the 2-turn burn time described for burning oil on the ground to also serve as the burn time when splashed on a creature isn't conflating the two it is a reasonable assumption to imply that, in general, a pint of oil covering a surface (whether an organic creature or inorganic floor) will provide enough fuel to burn for 12 seconds (2 rounds) before going out. Even the burning duration regarding to oil poured on the ground can be called into question, the rules state the surface has to be level to cover the square, a 5x5 foot area. The thing is the rules don't address the details of what the surface in made of or what else might be on it. 🤔Can oil be poured on porous sands of a beach or desert and still be lit on fire? Would the partial absorption of oil into the packed dirt of a path or road act as a wicking structure that slows the burn rate and allow for 3 turns of burning instead of 2 as mentioned in the rules. What about wooden floors? What if its a stone floor but its by a window with floor-length drapes in the same square? Do the curtains catch fire? Oil and water don't mix. If an enemy or PC pours oil on top of a container and lights it on fire to hide an object or keep someone from reaching in and grabbing it, how long does in burn then since it is covering an area less than 5x5 feet? How high do the flames rise when a thin covering of oil burns over a large surface area like a 5x5 foot square?
Everyone gets caught up different sticking points in the rules regrading specifics to a situation, evidently burning oil on a creature vs. on a surface was your quirk. As a fellow DM, I suggest just using the 2-turn burn time as an appropriate base duration whether on a creature or on a surface.👍 Trust me, there's a much bigger headache from the million other things to figure out regarding how fire is supposed to work in D&D 5E with all the possible situations and tactics players may employ. The some of the rules inconsistency was even covered in a video by Bob The Worldbuilder th-cam.com/video/2r1_kEgi7vo/w-d-xo.html
@@FlutesLoot Your video did inspire a new homebrew item though, thought you'd get a kick out of it and maybe use it in your games. Figured I'd put it here in a separate comment so more people can easily find it rather than reading through the longer initial comment.
WIZARD'S OIL BOMB🧙♂💣
A batch of 6 of these can be made with 1 candle and 6 flasks of oil. They are made by inserting a piece of candle into the stopper in the neck of the flask, with the candle wick on the inside. The air gap within the flask can provide 10-12 seconds (2 rounds) of burnable oxygen. The item can still be used in all regards as a normal oil flask, but anyone with Prestidigitation can employ the device in the following way:
ACTIVATION TURN (Turn 1): On your turn, you an use 1 action to cast Prestidigitation lighting the candle inside the flask, you may choose to hand off the activated flask to an ally within 10 feet, if they have a free hand. The flask must be deployed before the end of your next turn.
DEPLOYMENT TURN (Turn 2): Before the end of your turn following activation, you or the ally you handed the flask to must use an action to either throw the flask by hand or launch it with the use of the Catapult spell, otherwise it becomes an "Inert Oil Bomb" (see below). If thrown it is subject to the improvised weapon rules and is limited to the 20/60 range increments and can target a creature or a 5 foot square. If targeting a creature with a successful hit, the thrown flask does 1d4 + DEX modifier in bludgeoning damage + 5 fire damage when it strikes. If the Catapult spell is used to launch the flask at a creature it does 3d8 bludgeoning (as per the spell rules) + 5 fire damage for the burning oil on a successful hit. If targeted at the ground, whether thrown by hand or launched by the Catapult spell, the target square is set ablaze and per the normal oil rules will do 5 damage to any creature that enters the square on their turn or ends their turn in the square.
MISSED TARGET: If the attack roll misses the intended target, the DM must determine where it actually strikes using whichever random miss tables they may rule by. The Wizard Oil Bomb will still set ablaze the square (or possibly creature) it lands on after missing the intended target.
BURNING TURN (Turn 3+): Creatures previously struck continue to burn and take another 5 fire damage. While burning, any additional Wizard Oil Bombs or normal Oil Flask that successfully strike the creature before the end of your 3rd turn will each add 2 more turns of burning. Any turn the creature is considered burning will add 2 turns to the duration for each Wizard Oil Bomb or normal Oil Flask that strikes it on subsequent turns.
INERT OIL BOMB: If the activated flask is not broken open (by throwing or catapulting at a target creature or area) by the end of your second turn the flame uses up the oxygen in the flask and it becomes and inert oil bomb. While in this state is reverts to a normal oil flask and can only be used as such unless it is reinitialized. The device can be reinitialized by using an action to briefly open the stopper and introduce new air into the flask for a moment before closing the stopper again.
PRESTIDIGITATION ONLY: Prestidigitation is the only cantrip capable of igniting candles. Druidcraft cannot ignite candles only extinguish them and Thaumaturgy only manipulates flames that are already lit.
@@PGIFilms I like how it's clear that it can be perpetuated!
Find Familiar: "A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal." So by this argument a familiar can't attack, with claw or teeth, but COULD "Use an Object" and thus throw a Vial of Acid or Alchemist Fire against an enemy?
Did you delete your previous comment? Because I answered your question previously. Familiars can't attack. If something requires an attack roll, regardless of the action to do it, a familiar can't do it. If it said familiars can't use the attack *action*, they would remain open to other ways to attack, but it just says they can't attack.
It's funny I'm about to make a dragonborn (black) rogue thife
I wish you well with the fun subclass!
To determain the Spell Save DC for non casting classes, look in the Race discription. High Elves gain a cantrip and it says to use INT for the Spell Save DC. If your race has nothing listed in discription, your modifer is zereo . ( 8 + proficiency bonus + 0)
If you can throw a flask, you can throw a dart. don't see why, if this works as described, you couldn't just use darts. 1d4 doesn't matter so long as you get sneak and it hits.
Pretty much
wow. 5/5. that's indeed bold. i consider thief to be one of the worse rogue subclasses in a normal campaign (DM doesn't give access to the best mundane items aside from the PHB ones and gold isn't overflowing). i could see though the potential to be a 4/5 (5/5 meaning it's the best rogue subclass is too much. I'd probably save that honor for something like the phantom, arcane trickster, swashbuckler or assassin). I'd say it's a 2/5.
fast hands is indeed great if you can use stuff like the tangler, smoke grenade, inhaled poisons, etc. personally, i assess fast hands as it you're just dropping caltrops/ball bearings or throwing oil/acid flasks. and even then, other rogues can do the non-improvised attack item tactics by simply spending a feat on ritual caster and picking up unseen servant.
just a slight correction here, you can't use improvised weapons to trigger sneak attack. sneak attack requires a ranged weapon to be used (weapon type) and not making a ranged weapon attack (attack type). JC has made this same clarification with sharpshooter and proceeded to differentiate attack type and weapon type:
attack types:
a. melee=weapon and spell
b. ranged=weapon and spell (like the sun soul monk's spell attacks)
weapon types:
a. melee
b. ranged
c. natural
d. improvised
e. unarmed* (this has an asterisk because it's technically not a weapon)
sneak attack checks weapon type not attack type.
as for dmg for throwing alchemist's fire/oil, it's supposed to be dex on a hit (based on those tweets) then the effects thereafter. i have seen some DMs though have a more player friendly reading (that i think is still in line with RAW) that the flask itself deals the base improvised weapon dmg of 1d4 + dex just like what you stated. then the effects happen thereafter. dex is not added to the effects thereafter.
as for oil if you're talking about the improvised attack option, then yes it activates on every instance of fire dmg like with scorching ray getting a +5 to each ray that hits. it it's the oil drop version, they will just get that dmg once per turn and only if they end/enter the area and the area is already lit let's say from a torch or tinderbox.
each tick of the alchemist fire indeed does +5.
the reason why i rank the thief low is aside from fast hands, you don't get anything good until level 17 which is why they are best as a dip class like the assassin. however, unlike the assassin, fast hands isn't as unique (or as powerful at some tables) due to the fact that's its easily replicated by picking up ritual caster or finding a way to get pets (like a pot of awakening for your very own baby groot!)
btw this vid is a great resource for the use an object action for unseen servant and to diversify actions of pets/summons.
Thanks for the thorough thoughts! I addressed the improvised weapon / sneak attack issue better in the article. I am sticking with my 5/5 rating because it's rare that a subclass can transform a playstyle and highlight fringe mechanics.
@@FlutesLoot that's fair. as mentioned, i think it's viable from an optimization standpoint to be close to your ranking (i gave it a 4/5 but it will take alot for me to give it a 5/5 as much like giving out S tiers, i only give out 1 otherwise it loses value imo. so 5/5 only goes to 1 rogue subclass for me. at the moment imo that's the phantom) as long as the DM is not stingy with gold/crafting and allows access to the better items. if you're just using the phb items, there's still enough to work with there but it's not as game-changing as getting to impose conditions with decent dcs or high aoe dmg.
like inhaled poisons are a killer if players are given access to the DMG items easily. or the tangler grenade. i do like the playstyle though of an improvised weapon thrower.
Thief is very much held back by the amount of DM fiat involved in Fast Hands.
Mechanically, Adventuring Gear that references "improvised weapons" *should* include 1d4+Dex damage in order to justify the extremely high cost for the levels where they are relevant. Most DMs I've worked with consider this unintuitive, RAI, and I think that's very fair but we see this kind of cascading reference in things like Conditions, where a single plainly written word references an entire subsection of the PHB/DMG.
Should a "ranged attack" with an improvised weapon render it an "improvised ranged weapon"? RAW I feel like that's loosey-goosey interpretation, but by the numbers I think it's honestly fine.
At level 5:
A thief weighing themselves down with Acid or Oil, using a consumable *every* turn plus readying an attack every turn with Sharpshooter and Archery fighting style from Vhuman or Custom will do approximately (Assuming 65% baseline to hit, up to 75% with Archery, +3 Dex Mod):
0.6*(1d4+3+3d6+ItemDamage) + 0.5*(1d10+3+3d6+10) or about 24.1 Damager Per Round + Item Damage
A level 5 vhuman/custom fighter with Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter (Assuming 65% baseline to hit, up to 75% with Archery, +3 Dex Mod):
3*(0.5*(1d6+3+10)) or 24.75 Damage Per Round
But the fighter doesn't have to worry about the weight, cost or availability of their crossbow bolts. They don't have to make sure that they're at the correct range, or that their target is engaged with someone else to get their Sneak Attack damage. The DM doesn't have to make a judgement call that the crossbow attacks closely enough resemble ranged weapon attacks to count as one. This also assumes the fighter isn't using *any* subclass mechanic to boost their damage.
Thief can absolutely be an S-tier class, both for flavor and for damage. But there's a checklist of like 10 things your DM needs to sign-off on, and it goes down a half-tier for each thing they don't agree to.
Well said! I hope future D&D design options are less convoluted.
I'm sorry Flutes, I have to dispute the main thing you like about this build.
If you look at the rules for making an attack in the players handbook (I'm out and about so I can't get the exact page number, but it's in chapter 9), there is a line towards the end that states "If there’s ever any question whether something you’re doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you’re making an attack roll, you’re making an attack."
This means that the improvised attacks for the objects here are still using the Attack action. I had to walk one of my players through this issue when they tried to do this. All the items that effect an area or require only a saving throw work fine, but RAW you cannot make attacks with the Use an Object action.
I am also aware there is a rather misleading sage advice on this issue, but people take the point that Jeremy didn't explicitly deny that it doesn't use the Use an object action to mean it still does. If anything, his statement that these objects involve improvised attacks reinforce that it uses the Attack action IMO.
If Fast Hands functioned as a free, unconditional bonus action attack, I think that would be pretty crazy unbalanced and I would likely rule against it for my own games regardless. Ofc, the game is about having fun tho, nd you did recommend players talk to their DMs about it beforehand, so if it wont bother the DM then its fine.
(Forgive me if you spoke about this in the vid, I haven't had time to watch the full video yet, will do so soon)
Additionally, correct me if I'm wrong, but even if they did count as an Use an Object action, while making an attack with the objects here does count as a ranged attack with an improvised weapon, Sneak Attack requires the weapon to either have the finesse property or the weapon be a ranged weapon. While the attack is ranged, the weapon is not a ranged weapon in this case, so Sneak Attack would not apply.
@@rdigeri Tricky point. I can't recall where, it could have been a sage advice or in the PHB, but i remember some rule that states any item or body part being used to make an attack, counts as a weapon while it is being used to make said attack.
If my memory serves me well, then you could in fact sneak attack with an improvised weapon. However, if im crazy and misinformed, then you may be correct.
@@Calavid Oh it does count as a weapon, just not as a ranged weapon, like crossbows, bows or guns. The point here is that if you throw a dagger, the reason you can apply sneak attack to that is the finesse property, not that you made a ranged attack with it (since that in itself is insufficient). This is why thrown javelins can't benefit from sneak attack, for example. (Though I realize this example could be misleading, since javelin uses strength for throwing, however that's not what makes the difference, one could throw a dagger using strength too and still benefit from sneak attack.)
I think the situation where one might be able to sneak attack with an improvised weapon is when the DM decides that the object used resembles a weapon which would normally have the finesse property.
This will also be relevant from Sage Advice:
'What does “melee weapon attack” mean:
a melee attack with a weapon or an attack with a melee weapon? It means a melee attack with a weapon. Similarly, “ranged
weapon attack” means a ranged attack with a weapon. ...'
So this is why a ranged weapon attack in itself does not mean it qualifies; it's not necessarily a ranged weapon.
bottom line: It's not using dex that matters, but whether the weapon has the finesse property, or is a ranged weapon (which is not the same as the attack being ranged)
@@rdigeri In that case, you might be right. If you had glassblowers tool proficiency, i wonder if you could create dagger-like vials for your acid. That would still probably qualify as needing DM discretion though.
Either way, the concept of bonus action ranged sneak attack that you can do in tandem with any other action wouldnt sit well with me as DM regardless, as compared to something like 2-weapon fighting which is melee only, requires you to Attack with your action first, and normally restricts what kinds of weapons you can use (having to use shortswords over rapiers unless you take Duel Wielder). Most bonus action attacks are either limited use, or have some kind of caveat, so getting one that breaks this mould on a rogue of all things isnt really balanced. Part of the rogues design was having a limited window to get their sneak attack off, an all your eggs in one basket sorta deal.
@@Calavid dagger-like vial sounds fun, could work if the DM allows it.
(two weapon fighting does state: "If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it." So technically it works ranged, it just runs into the issue of drawing the weapons, unless you have the Thrown Weapon Fighting Style.)
I suppose the question whether Thief would be too strong with this use of their Use an Object is another question, but the intent doesn't seem to align with it.
I know this video is a year old, but I would like to correct a mistake you made in your reading of the rules for Sneak Attack. The prerequisite for applying Sneak Attack damage to an attack is not that it is a ranged weapon attack, but that it is an attack made with a ranged weapon. Alchemist's fire, Acid, etc. are not ranged weapons, they are improvised weapons which you used to make a ranged weapon attack. This is an important distinction which prevents them from being able to be used with Sneak Attack.
That said, it wouldn't really break the game to let your players use them together anyways, considering how horrible the Rogue class is. It needs all the help it can get.
Thank you!
Sneak attack only works with slashing or piercing damage (so fire damage or bludgeoning damage won't work).
The Sneak Attack description doesn't mention a damage type limitation. There are plenty of other limitations, but not damage type. I can see how someone could infer the damage type limitation due to the finesse and ranged weapon limitation.
I prefer " Dungeon Engineer "
Definitely a better resume buffer
Here's a fun thing about the Thief! Or rather, not the thief, but the Hadozee race. Even after the nerf, the Hadozee gets a lite version of Fast Hands as a racial via their Dextrous Feet. And they don't even need their hands!
While it's a cool racial trait, if it doesn't allow for the Use an Object action specifically/mechanically, it can't do what Fast Hands does. The way the Hadozee's Dextrous Feet feature was written in the UA would've taken the Thief by storm. WotC clearly decided not to do that, and I think they were correct in doing so.
You put up the description which states "When an object requires an action for its use, you take the Use an Object action."
But then you read "Use an object means if there is a non-magical item that says it requires an action to use an effect with that item then you use the use an object action."
1) The text doesn't mention "non-magical item", you inserted that criteria
2) The text describing "Use an Object" does NOT say "when the description of an object includes 'As an action, you can,,,'" it says "When an object requires an action for its use". Many objects require an action to use, such as a spyglass or a whistle, but don't mention "As an action" in their descriptions. Clearly you can use those items with a "Use an Object" action.
3) The rules clearly delimit what is an what is not an attack. For instance, "A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal." With your logic, a familiar CAN attack as long as it's with a thrown vial of acid, holy water or alchemist's fire?
Any action which requires an attack roll, is an Attack and is limited for game balance. Actions which require an action but not a contested attack roll, such as spreading caltrops or ball bearings are not attacks and would be classified under "Use an Object".
I promise I've read all the rules, clarifying tweets, and errata on this. I'm trying to save everyone the time to decipher some of the murkiest rules in 5e.
1. The ruling for Fast Hands not working with magic items is specifically outlined in the DMG and the basic rules for activating an item. J-Craw even says as much: www.sageadvice.eu/can-a-thief-rogue-use-their-fast-hands-ability-to-use-bracer-of-flying-daggers-as-a-bonus-action/
2. If you want to open it up to items that don't say they require an action to use, that's up to you. Most people seem to allow those non-action items as free actions, though some items are clearly written poorly (healer's kit, manacles).
3. It's not *my* logic; It's how 5e is written. But familiars say they can't attack, which is different from the attack action. It's clear that they can use the Use an Object action but they cannot make attacks.
Your final statement's intent is unclear to me.
I think the premise here might be off. Once an object becomes an improvised weapon, it requires the Attack Action and is not the Use an Object action. You can only Use an Object if its an object and not considered a weapon. I think you can get away with throwing a smoke grenade as a bonus action cause there's no targets but throwing a fragmentation grenade or alchemist's fire or acid... I would not allow that as a bonus action since they are weapons not objects.
Not all attacks are made with the attack action. Use an Object is for items that say they require an action to activate; some of those items activate and include an improvised weapon attack. Those items you specified are not weapons, they are items that require the Use an Object action to use. I personally believe the rules would be better if these rules were clearer and made more sense when objects with special effects were used with the attack action as improvised weapons instead of with Use an Object, but this is how they work now.
@@FlutesLoot Do you have a citation for this? Or at least a Sage Advice?
@@fortunatus1 sure thing! Use an Object is described on PHB page 193. If you read items like acid, they say you use an action to use them, just like the Use an Object action says. Then part of that use is to make an improvised weapon attack. "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action."
If you're doing an improvised weapon attack, you are making an attack roll. I'm not sure I would use this over my main attack.
It's a bonus action.