I played a cleric that pissed off my party immensely. I worshiped a deity comparable to Thor. My goal was martyrdom. I wouldn’t heal anyone who fell in battle, believing that was the only sure path to a afterlife filled with joy. I finally died while holding the line as my party retreated, sadly none of my party members objected because they hated the only healer refusing to heal. But the dm loved it and I received a glorious ROLE PLAY scene and death speech.
Yes Nothing more annoying than the non-healer cleric in your party The traditional cleric is admittedly a rather dull construct, there like potions or some magical device totally focused on keeping your party alive. I keep playing with the idea of using a non-combatant NPC healer in my group, for that basic function. It's like the doc in the NFL just there to shoot them up with pain killers and steroids and stimulants so they cam go back out there quicker to get killed again. I generally don't find it that rewarding a role so either give the party a device to heal them or an NPC if no one really enjoys doing what is a game mechanic to cut down on down time for the party.
0:54 Aaaand I just got an idea for an NPC! Meet Urban the Urban Druid - idling about rainy streets in his moldy robe, pockets full of rats and cockroaches; talking to homeless dogs, tending to basement mildew, sickly market square trees and an occasional flower-bed. People may hate him and his lice, but he doesn't mind, he knows his importance. Who else would stand between the good townsfolk and the plague, the drought, the flood?
Clerics and paladins both would adhere to the tenets of their faith. Much of the descriptors given for the cleric assume a Christian/LG-CG ethos. A cleric of an evil god would be the first to cut the throat of that 0 level enemy described--but would more likely want make a sacrifice to that Dread Lord. A cleric of Bacchus would be all about the wine and orgies. Clerics are really hard to play. Great material!
Lol been playing one for years... "Another mission?" (Crap... I just wanted to stay in town and enjoy some down time... I hate wearing heavy armor when my brother is a mage and has a mage armor spell. Heavy sigh...
I agree that too many look at the cleric with a Christian viewpoint. My first character was a cleric back in '81 with the B/X Moldvay rule set and he was a monster hunter as Dave Arneson envisioned for the class. I think the view of clerics being more like a priest instead of a crusaders or monster hunter came about in 2nd Edition AD&D and that was the beginning of the downfall for the class in D&D, as well as the addition of the Paladin class in AD&D. The cleric is my favorite class to play and none of my clerics were ever the priest type or invested with gaining converts or followers for their deity. The relationship with their Deity was personal and one where the Deity sought out the character to work their will on the material plane, whatever it may be.
@@brianevans9719 My preference on a cleric in my own setting is a Lightbringer, one who is empowered to venture out into the world to bring the light of cleansing to dark places. They normally investigate mysterious events, and hunt the undead. They encourage local villagers in the faith, mainly through deeds that show the power of their God. They solve problems through diplomacy, or combat when needed. Zombie problem? Solved. Bandit problem? Gather some adventurers together and go handle that too. Village needs the shrine fixed to his god? He would donate to restore it to honor his god. Spending alot of time presenting sermons and counseling the locals is for a resident priest, not a fully powered adventuring cleric. He seeks out the battles others fear.
2:01 - In _Dracula: Prince of Darkness,_ Christopher Lee does nothing but hiss, because he said the script was so bad, he refused to say any of the lines written for him. One more reason why Lee was a fucking legend!
When he played the monster he was upset he got no lines and peter Cushing told him “count yourself lucky. trust me i’ve read the script” and that was how the 2 became amazing friends
The script writer claims Lee is exaggerating and that he wrote no lines for him. I remain unconvinced. Why would any writer with access to talent like Lee choose not to write lines for him? It’s an absurd claim.
I would love to play a cleric at your table. Clerics are extensions of their god, they are a tool of their god, and this is where they can vary. I have played clerics for 20 years now and my fellow players never know if they are going to love or hate my character. There have been many times fellow players have come into conflict with my characters or looked for other characters to involve because they know my character would cause problems later on. I love the focused intensity of a cleric and they are my favorite class.
I'm playing a life cleric in Curse of Stradh. If the rest of the party doesn't pray with me every morning, they're not getting any of my healing. Popular? No. Am I having fun with it? Yes.
As I go through your older videos, I am encouraged by how much we agree on so many things. You are trying to change D&D in the same way I’m trying to design a different game. Good points all around.
I really like what you're offering on this channel. Everyone has different play styles. Every dungeon master is different. Your insight on the way magic and initiative work in opinion is good stuff. Thanks Professor Dungeon Master:)
So for the last 2 years I have played a level 13 Abjurer in 5e named Geome Samson Due. He is a bumpkin hedge Wizard who is also a devout believer of Saint Cuthburt from Greyhawk. The Saint is a God of Commonsense and Zeal. His domain is knowledge and I it think would attract a lot of mages and the like. Unless pushed to action my Wizard will never strike an enemy dead. He is quite clearly not a cleric though. He's not ordained but he prostlasyzes for the church, converts new members and openly damns sinners. He's becoming increasingly fanatical as an outsider (probably an angel) has been whispering in his ear otherworldly secrets that make the core notes of his new wizard spells. It's great. I think I will multuclass him into a cleric for the remainder of the game. It makes a lot of sense narratively.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY MEANT BY "BIBLE THUMPING"! 🤣 "The power of $deity compels you! *THWACK!*" 🤣🤣 *ahem* No, no, I'm okay, really. *THWACK!* 🤣 I don't know why that's so funny, but it is…
I played a 5e game where the Cleric was beholden to a Goddess of War, The DM dictating the will of the Goddess. That will being the Cleric shall live so others may die in combat. I played a warrior who was tired of war, was reluctant to kill, and sought fortune an adventure to redeem a vampire hooker spy, in the hopes of living with her in peace. Imagine the fun that came from that.
LOL--literally. I had druids in here but it got too long. This vid was so frustrating, by the end I was like--screw the druids! So it will be a while, honestly. I need to rest up a while and do some easier videos. I'll try to get to it by the summer, though.
In under 15 minutes, you've revolutionized the way I think about Clerics. I'm definitely keeping these ideas with me, going forward. I'm IN LOVE with your channel, thank you very much for sharing your wisdom!
I like Clerics in 5e but also agree with you here, there are some fantastic ideas even for a high fantasy game. For anyone wanting to do a trickster cleric in this method by the way, go read The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch. The priests of the god of thieves in that world fit in very well with the professors ideas here.
Gotta say that the idea of a god that would give you a boring, years-long task and then reward you for quitting it and proving that you aren't a moron is the kind I can get behind as a cleric. A.G.
I understand the restrictions for balancing purposes but that stuff is turning towards the whole situation that gave clerics and paladins a bad name in 3.5. Not many people want to play clerics as well due to the stigma of them only being healers so i think that the features are likely over compensating
I have definitely seen the war cleric a lot in games. And it outshines the martial builds even with min/maxing. Do you run paladins similarly? Do you even include paladins in your games? The setting is so dark fantasy is imagine paladins, like clerics, are quite rare.
War cleric only shines until 5th level and only then if you are not giving the players multiple multiround combats. He also loses access to the awesome spiritual weapon spell, since his BA is used hitting things himself. After 5th level your warcleric should stop hitting things and start slinging spells because he isn't as good at it as a fighter or barbarian.
I typically only play clerics. In my game experience it seems that some players don’t even understand the role of the cleric in a party as they believe they are only back field healers and have no other purpose. And over proselytizing role play only begins to irritate some players. Personally I enjoy that part of the cleric class but it seems to be typically misunderstood. With that said, I’ll never stop playing the cleric.
Another top notch video. This is just a suggestion for all the followers of Professor Dungeon Master. Three days ago I shared a link to DungeonCraft on three different Facebook groups. One a city wide group, one state wide group, and one National group for D&D. Followers st that point were 4517 today it’s 4556. I lay no claim to the 39 followers in three days but it certainly wouldn’t hurt if all 4556 followers of PDM shared a link to his channel in a similar way. Again this is just a suggestion. Me personally I don’t see why PDM doesn’t have 50k followers already. His videos make the most sense of all the D&D channels and I like his style of play. I’d like to see more people have a chance to see what he has to offer. Find a local D&D Facebook group and a state one and a national one. Let’s see if we can’t get PDM up to 10k followers by March 1st.
I currently play a cleric of Tymora based on Sonny from the film "Apostle" starring Robert Duvall. So there is that... Role playing a cleric as a religious zealot is not only the right way to play one; it is also the most fun way to play one..
Ha, yes. Cleric is my go-to class. Martyrdom? My pile of dead clerics can attest to that. Although a few of those died stupidly in the dark, but we don't talk about that... Outside of healing, the Bless spell is where it's at for the low-level party buff. My most recent religious nutjob (using The Black Hack) treats the undead as unwilling pawns with the intent of sending them to final rest. The Black Hack has the magical misfire potential when performing rituals, so he's had to roll on the d100 mishaps table a couple of times when his god denied him....
i don't want to sound offensive, but i would never play a cleric with you, there so many role-playing restrictions and the chance to just lose the ability to cast spells that it is like playing Russian Roulette.
I woud say that the code of religion greatly depends on the church you are part of. There are hard guidelines for the cleric, but they must feel fundamentaly different, depending of the gods they serve. This is importent, because religion is a big part of the world and the cleric must represent that. Mercy is not for evrery god and some might even call it a disgrace aganst the opponent to spare him/her. Same goes for other things.
That was well thought out! I've never seen anyone really delve into the meaning of the commitment. I've known one player who towed the line in thought and action, and it was a reflection of his personal philosophy, so he was comfortable. A nat 20 for Resurrection is very old school! I also think everything they do should be hands on or fairly adjacent for 'miracles'.
I appreciate the d20 roll for casting spells (many 5e spells are no longer automatic), but I'm not quite sold on the second (severity?) d20 roll. First, one of the tips for faster combats is to roll to hit and damage at the same time. Do you roll 2d20s at the same time for spells? Second, it seems redundant to roll the exact same die that you just rolled for the spell again for severity. Can't you fold in the severity based on the to hit roll? If they beat their minimum, the spell works weakly, if they beat it by 5 or more it's normal, if they beat it by 10 or more it has extra power. I would understand the need for a second roll if you were using percentile dice for lots of potential effects (like Wild Magic Surges in 5e). Perhaps you meant that the second roll is only used for "fumble" severity, so it wouldn't come up often and slow the game down much. Where I think the Clerics of 5e really fall down is not having spell lists be dependent on the deity worshiped. Why would Lathander, Chauntea, and Bane all grant the exact same prayers to their followers? I think the whole idea of Domains was generic customization, but it's a fail in my opinion. If you're not tailoring the hierarchy, religious requirements, and spells by the individual god, it just doesn't seem logical to me. WOTC could have used the deities of the Forgotten Realms for "domains" and DMs could re-skin them for their own campaign settings. I mean, a Sun God is a Sun God no matter if he's called Ra or Helios. Both your Wizard and Cleric spell rules use the same limitation, spells that backfire causing damage/death. This is a Russian Roulette style mechanic. I can see the appeal of a less pass/fail limit like channeling the forces of the universe (whether arcane or divine) saps your energy. This can be fatigue or spell points. Or, I was anticipating you to advocate for having spells cost HP to cast (given your gritty style). If each spell cost 1+level of spell HP to cast, then a wizard with 20 HP can cast a score of cantrips before they pass out... or two ninth level spells (if their level allows). Taking damage from attacks would also reduce HP, so if you're beat up you will pass out from casting a taxing spell. After all, you can't logically say that casting a spell is equivalent to swinging a sword. One breaks the laws of physics, the other is bound by it. One channels massive forces, the other moves a 3 lb. lump of steel. I have yet to see anyone make a rational argument that casting a cantrip like Frost Bolt is equivalent to swinging a sword (at least not one that makes a lick of sense, that is), but that was WOTCs actual justification for why cantrips are now unlimited. I'd love to hear from anyone who has play tested a spells cost HP system and what their impressions were, thanks.
It doesn't sound like cleric prayers cause death-they merely represent the god choosing not to answer prayers until a condition is met, even if that condition is merely the passage of a little time. I like the idea of spells/prayers being draining in this way, but I still think a to-hit roll is warranted. Costing HP doesn't seem right particularly for a cleric, but I don't know how else to represent the cost offhand. What I'm leaning toward is that a natural 1 is effectively the same as a wild magic surge. Random things happen which are not "the spell works", roll to see what. Some of the possible outcomes are disastrous. Some are inconvenient. Some are just unexpected. Some might even be beneficial, but not in the way you expect!
I love these ideas! Too often I see clerics and paladins played like regular characters. Even saw one at an event who kept loudly proclaiming he was an atheist and his powers came from within. Dumb that the DM didn't step in and smite him or something. The cleric or the paladin is SUPPOSED to be the stick in the mud to the murder hobos in the group. Otherwise, play a fighter or a magic user.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 They could simply see Gods as high-level magic users. It's hard to argue against that if their (clearly a God like all the rest) "God" argues the same about itself and all the other Gods.
I love your videos but you are wrong to say that clerics don’t have a literary tradition. In fact, theirs is far older than that of Rangers and Barbarians! The Song of Roland from ~1115 has a character named Archbishop Turpin who is quite the fierce warrior. I remember identifying with him in my Medieval Literature class in college as I always played a cleric in my Basic, Expert and AD&D days back in the 80s. Professor, please check out The Song of Roland a classic poem with tons of D&D plot hooks and ideas to inspire the reader! Dang, now I want to read again....
You hit it right on the nose. I've also seen that behavior in Star Wars with Jedi called 'Lightsaber syndrome', basically the player wants all the benefits of the class but refuses to accept or roleplay the responsibilities and limitations.
I really like your style, it's much more like hardcore mode. No meta gaming, no backsies, death is death and real consequences occur. Today there is little to nothing left of this in 5e. It reminds me of Baldor Gate II were I went on a mission to revenge the paladins family. Only to find out that he was expelled from his order. Which was funny because I needed him around for turning undead so I kept him on the team. Yet from time to time he would go bananas and start attacking the party who were responsible for him getting expelled. That's why I kept charm person in my prepared spell list to calm the poor soul down and keep him in line. Looking back, I was a cruel part leader. 'So I shattered your dreams? Sucks to be you, I am still not done with you. Obey, slave!'
I didn't pick up D&D until 5th edition, but what got me into D&D was old school D&D concepts like this. Paladins aren't fighters with holy powers, they're champions of a good and they can't permit evil to go unchallenged. That is a romanticized version of a medieval superhero. That's what I like about Paladins and Clerics.
I’d go with Jamie Lanaster. Not so much who he was as a flawed person but the ideas he wanted to embody. The knights of the round table are also a good example. And the word Paladin itself comes from Charlemagne’s personal knights. They aren’t champions of good they’re champions of the state. The powers are grated by virtue of being in a holy state and serving a holy monarch. It follows the divine right of kings. This kingdom exists because god deems it so and empowers his loyal followers with the power to defeat their enemies. The effect is his appointed knights get holy powers. This is referenced in works talking about Charlemagne’s and King Arthur’s round table. The champions of good are good aligned clerics. They follow their god directly.
In 5e, they divorced profession and character classes using the background feature. You may not like it, but I love it. I played a Hexblade Warlock the same way a Cleric would be played as a character in Professor Dungeon Master's mind. And it was all thanks to the Acolyte background. I was there performing the funeral rites of innocent victims to comfort the survivors, as well as that of my slain enemies to honor their bravery in battle. If my enemies showed disrespect, I would use the Accused Specter feature on them as punishment and also to grant one last chance at redemption. I fashioned this character as a devout blessed with the powers (and burdened with the responsibilites) of a Valkyrie. And yes, she was all about getting people to Valhalla or Folkvangr, including the other players. She would give everything to the temple to make it prosper, and the temple would in turn improve her equipment before sending her back to fight evil. I find it strange that the actual Cleric class didn't inspire me this, but the Hexblade Warlock did. And it could be played out thanks to background features.
I think you are trying to force a romanticized version of Christianity onto the clerics of your game. Why would Waulkeen require poverty? Why would Sune require chastity? Why would Gruumsh require obedience? Mercy from a cleric of Lolth? All Clerics should be devoted to their deity and should follow precepts set down by them. However those precepts should reflect the deity or pantheon(as it might be reasonable for a cleric to serve a group of collaborating gods) that said cleric is trying to represent. A DM imposing their real life concepts of theism onto a fantasy world is a bad idea.
Clerics have always been a little problematic as they were first presented and even currently from my perspective, especially in a world where there are multiple gods. I've run monotheistic and polytheistic worlds--in a polytheistic world, one of the worst things that stretches back to early D&D is making that cleric declare his or her patron deity. Priests of antiquity honored and sacrificed to all the gods of their tradition. A priest might serve in the temple of a particular deity, and spend time exploring the mysteries of same said deity--for the sake of argument lets say the Temple of Zeus---but for healing he or she would still approach Apollo, for a good harvest he/she would approach Demeter, and for a successful birth, they would still approach Hera with offerings and sacrifice. Within a Greek Mythology setting, I can easily see turning undead as something a cleric might so this in the name of Hades as the keeper of the Underworld. In most traditions that I'm aware of, the gods of the underworld guarded the souls in their domains quite jealously. It's very possible these would be the powers that a priest call upon so that they might take the dead back to where they rightfully belong. Instead of a holy symbol, the priest or priestess might hold up a coin to place under the undead monster's tongue pr over their eyes for the ferryman. If the turn undead is successful you might even describe that all the characters smell a river, and hear the ferryman's bell ringing, and hear the snarling of a three headed dog near to hand. Between the coin and those sounds of the servants of Hades, the undead flee and if it's a critical success where the undead are destroyed outright--have Cerberus appear to rip them to shreds. So in a D&D Greek religious cosmology---Hades guards the dead, upholding the rightful order of the gods, but the demon prince of the undead, Orcus, is constantly defying Hades and stealing souls from his domain at every turn, so he (Orcus) can send those souls back into the world of the living. Why? He's a demon. Defying the natural order of the gods is what demons do. It's just their jam. The exploring the religious cosmology of any given fantasy game world can really give new life into what it means to running priests, paladins, druids (who weren't just nature focused Celtic priests, but they were also law givers, judges, soothsayers, and authorities on traditions in an oral society.) What happens to souls after death in your D&D world? Do people just become shadows in an ashen world where they almost remember the lives they lived--is the only mortality one can hope for through notions like kleos and time' as in the world of Homer? That's a whole different set of motives for not only priests, but individual characters. Are there such things as saints? Is martyrdom venerated? If so, why? The pre-Christian Norse were not terribly compelled by martyrdom--not when the halls of Valhalla might yet be open to them. Are monastic traditions of different orders of clergy temporary like the Roman Vestal Virgins, or are they life long like in Catholicism? In agrarian civilizations, fertility is the whole ballgame--fertility of the fields, fertility of flocks and herds, fertility of a populace. Why would these athletes of the gods separate themselves from that natural order of things and take vows of chastity instead of setting an example for their flock to follow? I agree that yes, prisoners were taken for ransom, but this extended to Christian on Christian violence--there were different rules when fighting infidel and heathen armies. Do goblins deserve quarter and charity? Or are they a living plague and abominations sent into the world as direct manifestation of the power of their demon gods, Maglubiyet or Gruumsh for the orcs, and should be slaughtered to the last like diseased rats? If giving quarter to humanoids is something the gods decree, what is the benefit to them and the societies that worship them? This is a topic I've given quite a bit of thought to over time
Interesting take on how the clerics powers work, and how he or she can lose them, both temporarily or permanently. I was going to say that the natural 1 roll to lose connection with ones God or Goddess seemed odd with the second roll of natural 20 being the worst result, until I realised 1-19 was the number of rounds till the bond is reestablished,but a 20 means DAYS of penance, hence the worst possible punishment!
You make me want to play a cleric. Your clerics are like paladins. How do you differentiate between the two, besides game mechanics? I really love your approach to DnD. Maybe you could do a giant episode covering each class and the rules you use for them. Can Wizards wear armor? Use swords? Can clerics use blades? What makes a fighter special and distinct from other classes?
I think Clerics are a little too close to Paladins. In 1e Adnd Paladins didn’t get spells till name or close to it. That means practically the end of the game. Paladins are knights in shining armor the epitomizes that romantic idea. They’re knights of the round table, Charlemagne’s Paladins, The Kings guard of Westeros. A Barbarian society on the fringes of the world can have clerics but they won’t have Paladins. The Cleric order supplies their own system and operate in many areas. A Paladin requires a certain level of organization in the civilization they exist in. Paladins also require the monarch they follow to be lawful good. A Paladin is more beholden to ideas of valor and justice and honor. If the people perceive the knight as not elite they are in danger of losing enough face to lose their position as elite knight of the kingdom. A cleric by contrast answers directly to their god. The only reputation they care about is with their diety. They will show valor and justice if their god is good but are less concerned about keeping face or politics in general. I would point you to many stories in the Bible where a prophet suffers. A cleric may not always have status in a society even if they have high status in their church. A Paladin always has status within the civilization they’re a part of. The rural counterpart to the Paladins is the Ranger. I think he reason they’re locked good is because being evil already gave benefits and there is a general encouragement to be good. I think neutral players were doing better in gygax’s games because they could play with the good team and evil team. That let them Adventure more. Evil characters had the benefit of being evil and able to abuse those under them raise zombies and just be bad. In comparison good aligned characters were weak. I also think it counteracts the multi classed demi humans.
Your description of the expected behavior of Clerics don’t seem to take into account the nature of the god they worship. While a good aligned god should indeed expect the behavior that you describe, what about a non-good deity? Clerics aren’t attached to Lawful and Good behavior like the Paladin used to be (even Paladins aren’t required to be Lawful Good any more). I would like to hear more about the religions in your campaign setting, this would help me understand why clerics have to adhere to the tenets you describe. Also, are there Paladins in your world? Do you require them to behave like the clerics do?
On the 'not healing one who does not believe in your god', If you are using the d&d pantheon, you need to embrace polytheism. A cleric of Palor and a cleric of Heironeous would be friendly rivals, and would not deny healing to members of each other's faiths. Especially if they are working towards the same goal. This also extends to thieves or a barbarian that worships kord, by all means peddle your faith, and be abnoxious about it if you like, but you also can't let your party fail in a holy crusade
This take on classes sits very badly with me. For me, the name of a class and its description is at most the most generic of descriptions of the most usual kind, but is not in any way rules or creeds forced upon the character. A Fighter might be a powerless village priest who got blessed with martial prowess by the divines, a Bard must not be a minstrel, but can also represent the generic life-loving adventurer, the Druid might be a Fey soul trapped in a human form, and of course the Cleric may just be a prince of a wealthy nation who decided to sit under a tree and realy realy reflect upon his own life, coming to the conclusion that he is holy only if he lives in a holy way (Hello adventuring Buddha). A Cleric can be someone much like the fighter above, apointed by the divines to act as their instrument, it might be someone who ate pieces of a dead god and got some of its powers from it, but also a hunger for god-flesh. My point boils down to this: What a class is depends mostly on Setting, not description in the player handbook. In my gameworld, Clerics do not exist untill the 15th century, and were hunted by the church as witches, before slowly and usually by force being integrated into the churches, and then for quite some time basicly were seen as holy monsters to be locked up untlii needed to fight the good fight, and then back behind locked doors. If you came to that game, arguing that "No but im a Cleric, it says in the book that im a priest" then we would need to have a conversation, because clearly then you have not taken part of/not cared about the setting i have provided.
When you’re describing clerics early on it sounds like you’re only considering clerics who are priests of Lawful Good deities... what about those who serve more neutral gods? Also as a side note what if the cleric who is fighting chaotic evil opponents who already kill all their prisoners? Would he still be obligated to accept the surrender of a chaotic evil humanoid monster (so it can hope to escape and murder again one day)?
I don't know if I'd love or hate playing in one of your games...? 6th lvl after 25yrs?!! (I think I'd love it...at least for a year or two. :P) Good stuff, PDGM!
Ive been playing Curse of Strahd for about 5 months, with a large 1month break, not to mention another 4 week break, AND not even playing weekly. We are near the end and lvl 10. I would be so sad to play for 25 years and not hit lvl 7 on any character. Theres no point. It is a tabletop rpg. But at the end of the day it is about the game and the story forms AROUND the game. You can have gripping awesome stories while still playing a game. Ppl should write a book instead of nerfing casters to martial level and keeping players from ever getting a second ASI
My character would probably die of boredom of only being able to cast a few low level spells or maybe just die of old age if pdm didn't kill him off first. lol.
(Sorry for the thread necro - I have just recently discovered this channel) I found this an interesting bit of context to keep in mind when watching this channel. There's generally no "wrong" way to play D&D, as long as everyone is having fun in a safe, friendly environment. However, this information makes crystal clear - even more than much of the other content - the type of hardcore, gritty, death-is-constantly-around-the-corner type of games he enjoys playing. Just don't look to him for guidance on campaigns with characters that reach even mid to high level. On a personal level, I would never play in his games - this is not the type of fantasy gaming I enjoy. I make (and prefer to play in) campaigns that work to put the players at the center of an epic story.
Paladins (at least the LG type) are what Clerics should be. Just delete the Cleric and rename the Paladin. I even think the Paladin's CHA stat is more appropo than WIS for a Cleric (since they have to preach, etc).
"Why play a fighter and not a war cleric?" "Why play a cleric and not a wizard?" There are actually really good mechanical answers to those questions. Do you want them, or was that mainly a rhetorical question?
I have a soft spot for Clerics (first thing i ever played) and, even though i never played him like how you describe above, i still agree on everything you've stated. If i ever play a Cleric again i'm going to do it properly, and i'll be watching this video again for a refresher course. Another excellent video. Thanks again and keep up the good work.
Interesting. In your world clerics sound like they’re all Lawful Good. There’s no clerics who might consider taking prisoners as part of their God’s wishes. No Greyhawk Hextor or Ares. No religions valuing personal freedom and individualism either, all strict hierarchal orders that are basically righteous.
I agree with many of your points, however I don't think that ALL clerics won't get married, heal others not of their faith, accept surrender and some of the other beliefs you spoke of. I feel that many of these rules may not follow some of the dieties based on alignment. A cleric of the folower of a CN god of War might have a much looser code of personal ethics but stronger rules about combat and the rules of law for those that might run in fear, fall asleep while on duty, etc. When I play a cleric, I like to write down my clerics '10 commandments' to help me guide my characters ethics, this helps the GM as well to determine if I'm following up to my Gods Ethos. I'd also encourage you consider to modify the clerics D20 roll for spells (prayers) based on how well they follow the rules. If the cleric is following all the Gods rules he/she might get a +2 bonus. If the clerics is also praying regularly ever day/night, fasting regularly, reading his holy script, converting people to his diety, giving regular surmons, etc then perhaps grant another bonus. If you award the players a (+1, 2, 3) die bonus for playing the character according to the Gods Ethos, they are more likely to follow their Gods commandments. (I think) As a religious person myself, who isn't a Cathlic, I feel marriage and family is an essential part of my religion. I feel I could be a cleric or paladin in a fantasy game and still be a family man. The distance would make the marriage harder, however if I feel proselytize is esential to my faith, I make good money and am relativly safe, then I might continue. As a soldier, I'm deployed often for 6-8 months out of every 2 years. Being away from the family is a difficult challenge, however I feel I'm doing my duty to my country, God and show my sons and daughters how a father should provide for his family, serve his God and country. Anyway, I enjoy your videos. Cheers mate.
Thanks for taking the time to reply! I agree clerics might be able to have families. I disagree about the War cleric. A war cleric would follow the the rules of engagement fanatically. That means ALWAYS accepting surrender and treating opponents with the utmost respect. That is the warrior Ethos. Not to mention that ransoming was a common practice in the Middle Ages. Cheers!
On a side note: the "disappearing cleric" should be hearing from their god about looking the other way and should be required to make redeem the transgression to maintain cleric "magic" privileges.
I think the real issue is that Clerics and Paladins are waaay to similar Why are they knights templar when thats what Paladins became? I mean, they made a class thats just another class but slightly shifted. IMO clerics shouldn't wear armor and be rather similar to wizards, just divine in nature and thus with rather different spells.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Its one of the more odd things considering it was already presumed to be rare; some of these relics of design were cool but should be moved away from imo.
@@longkuei it does work better, the question is; is the cleric differentiated enough from it, that is to say, not a martial class? Its an issue across systems and iterations of dnd in particular that clerics do their job the best and someone elses job better, and the issue with prestige classes is they're often (but not always) not worty the effort and sacrifices to obtain them.
As someone who mostly plays Pathfinder and 5e, the sheer monstrocity that is the cleric, or god forbid the warpriest, makes me swear off playing them. I mean, they have spells almost as good at later levels as the wizard, can wear armor, do melee combat, and thus have a far better earlygame. They can even get access to the best wizard spells sometimes! Its more than a little absurd. Imo the cleric should be a divine wizard, not a paladin with more spells, or a fighter with spells; which is what it currently is.
I gotta say, I disagree with the assertion that clerics need to be proselytizing. That model of adventuring holy-man is sharply Christian in its influences - and often more protestant than catholic. I prefer a more pagan approach, about doing great deeds as an offering to your god and seeking out those your god despises to be an instrument of wrath. What does your god need new followers for? He's doin' his thing one way or another.
To me, druids are more pagan. Dave Arneson, who conceived of the class, modeled them on the Knights Hospitalleers & Abraham Van Helsing. The God does not need new followers but the religion does, in order to survive & keep pumping out clerics. Look for a follow up episode on religion, coming in 2021.
Hey Dungeon Craft, since your game is a mix of many editions, personal homebrew rules and 5e, do you have your players roll death saving throws when they drop to zero hit points or do they die at 0? Also big fan of your content, your channel and your minis. Recently picked up DCC and I cannot wait to run it. Do you have an email where I can reach out to you with more long-winded questions or comments?
5th edition pretty much makes characters into super heroes. If I chose to nerf the Cleric, wouldn't that unbalance them in relation to the other classes? One rule I like is the concept of initiative and casting in segments rather that as actions or bonus actions. Segments was prior to 5e, but left a chance that a caster who rolls a 5 for initiative won't be able to cast a spell that takes more than 5 segments to cast. on your initiative, you start casting. After the number of segments, the spell goes off unless you were interrupted. With 5e, it's either an action or a bonus action with not much chance for spell interruption which I do not like.
I agree with your evaluation of segments. Would that imbalance them? No. Because I take attacks from fighters and make wizards roll to cast spells. So everyone is de-superheroed equally. Cheers, Marshmallow Madness!
I'm a little more lineant on clerics. While there are purely faith based cleric I also allow the idea of a person being taught cleric spells but it has to come from a specific source and is based more on philosophy than intellect. Where for a wizard magic is a science, for clerics it's a philosophy. Wizards are over in the math and science department but clerics are over in the literature and history department. Bards...bards in the cafeteria buying both lunch to pick their brains for what they'll need to know in order to past the next test.
Might I suggest taking a look at the article from The Dragon #51, "Thou Shalt Play This Way - Ten Commandment for Paladins" by Robert J. Bezold. The short version is this - 1. Thou Shalt Accept The Counsels Of Thy Mentor And Obey All His Commandments. 2. Thou Shalt Defend Thy Mentor. 3. Thou Shalt Respect All Weaknesses And Constitute Thyself The Defender Of Them. 4. Thou Shalt Be Faithful To The Mentor Who Reared Thee. 5. Thou Shalt Not Recoil Before Thine Enemy. 6. Thou Shalt Make War Against Evil Without Cessation And Without Mercy. 7. Thou Shalt Perform Scrupulously Thy Duties To Thy Mentor. 8. Thou Shalt Never Lie, And Shalt Remain Faithful To Thy Pledged Word. 9. Thou Shalt Give Largely Of Thy Wealth. 10. Thou Shalt Be Everywhere And Always The Champion Of The Right And The Good Against Injustice And Evil. While this was written with the paladin character in mind and has greater depth for each of the commandments under each entry beyond what I posted here, I feel that it is also a very good fit with how you view the clergy as a whole since the paladin is simply step beyond the dedicated holy warrior monk.
Have you ever thought of writing up all your houserules? I'm inspired to run a OSR D&D after running your channel. I'll be cribbing some ideas from Dungeon Crawl Classics, as I see you have, but I would love to have a document which outlines your initiative, magic, character creation and character progression. Not using skills, how do you handle classes who get expertise features? I'm curious as to how you blend 5e with so many OSR ideas.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 That's great to hear! on the topic of Clerics, do you have them prepare spells for the day, or allow them to attempt to pray for whatever spell effect they need in the moment?
@@Joshbehe Great question. Both. And more! A cleric must stop whatever they are doing and pray for 1 hour, three times a day. Then they can cast any spell they want.
It wouldn't be hard to not the house rules yourself. It would take about six pages. zero level play-through video character sheets. Not in this order, here are the basic rules as far as I have gathered. +7 net ability score bonus build for 1st level, rather than ability score rolls.. A house rule would be every 4 levels you may add an additional +1 to a given ability bonus. Instead of STR 13 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 15 ( +7 total bonus). You simply note the ability modifier. It would look like this: STR +1 DEX +3 CON +1 INT +1 WIS -1 CHA +2. House rule for 5e: At level 4 you may add +1 to any ABILITY MODIFIER. No Multi-Classing. Optional: If non-human races are allowed, Racial Bonuses do not effect ability bonus score, but other characteristics may: Darkvision, Luck (for halflings), intimidation for Half-Orcs, etc. Cap HP at level3 totals, or 20 (maybe 30). No skill/proficiency rolls (classes know what they can do). PC's do get additional abilities as described in their various texts (Rogues sneak attack, but 1d4, instead of 1d6... or number of d4's instead of d6's at higher levels, perhaps reduced by half with a minimum of one). See below. Easy/Medium/Hard (DC is 5+, 10+ or 15+). Half the damage dice spell damage (8d6 Fireball becomes 4d6 (round down). Single die spell damage lowered by one die-type Cure Wounds moves from 1d8+WIS bonus to 1D6+(1/2 WIS bonus) on a spell effect range of 15 or above for a low-level character. Spell descriptions are best case scenarios. The effect depends on the effect roll and the level of the character. Casters can cast as many spells as they want if they have the level to cast them and know them (Clerics are limited to their spells per day?), but they have to roll to hit and roll for effect (a natural 1 is bad and has long or short-term effects). I would rule that some cleric spells could remove some or all of those effects. Wizards must learn spells through mentor / college. Sorcerors will only learn spells through experimentation or "cool description". Warlocks gain spells through their various patrons which create all kinds of hooks. Bards learn spells from muses/patrons. Druids must attend to the duties of their respective circles. Paladins/Clerics through divine favor. Ethos not Alignment (scale is -3 to +3 or -6 to +6). If a PC degrades to the lowest level of Ethos, it is irrevocably and monstrous in the hands of the DM. If the PC attains the maximum level of Ethos, it is revered and acknowledged as a Hero or Saint. There is no initiative: All attacks are simultaneous. Declarations come first and people may not change their minds. Declarations happen at the beginning of the round go around the table from left-to-right rather than in initiative order. OR Ranged first, then Casters, then Melee, than Rogues. Categorize monster/bad guy health in terms of number of hits rather than actual HP (but let the PC's roll damage for fun). Basic goblin/orc 1 hit. Gnoll or Orc Captain 2 hits. Bugbear 3 hits. Troll 3 hits (regain 1 hit / round though). Dragon: 5-6 hits. OR Limit enemy HP to a reasonable levels that assume the same amount of respective damage on average. (Goblins 1d6, Orc Captain 2d8, Bugbear 3d8, Dragon 40 or so.) Only one action per round (Perhaps, a move and regular action). There are no bonus actions or reactions. If a PC has multiple attacks, it may use it's damage to hit multiple enemies up to the number of total attacks it has, provided it hits. If a level 5 Fighter hits and rolls for a total of 5 damage, that fighter does 5 damage (or one hit) to two opponents or 10 damage to a single opponent (or 1 hit to up two openents.) Living/Maintenance Expenses: ((10gp per week X character level) +/- Character Level X (degree of success on WIS check OR +/- WIS bonus)(per week)). This will include room and board, weapon and armor maintenance, supplies and ammo. But not taxes. For taxes assume a flat 30% tax that the tax collector knows about. Some of this could be mitigated by the role-playing situation. If a character is a friend of the local noble and staying at zeir keep, it could be possible some of these things may not come into play. I am sure I missed some things. I am confident this is a good start.
"Clerics don't have a literary tradition" Isis, Egyptian Goddess of Wisdom and Magic. Revives her husband from the dead. Her followers; priests and priestesses who were known as healers and were said to have other abilities like dream reading and protection. *shrugs*
Nathan Morgan My bad. ( but Maiar are just lesser Valár anyway.) Because he mentioned Aragorn, Conan and Merlin as examples (1:18 if you want to check) and stated that such a concept has not existed before 1977; but the concept of a holy person with high wisdom who heals and brings the undead to peace has existed. (Not saying these people actually had magic powers but in LITERARY tradition, they did.) I never said that Isis was a DND diety; just that she existed prior to 1977.
This is a fine way to play a lawful good cleric but a terrible way to play, say, a neutral evil cleric of Vecna or a chaotic neutral cleric of The Traveler.
I totally agree. I see clerics as lawful. I can't logically wrap my head around a Lawful Neutral cleric. ALL organized religion is inherently lawful--that's why it's "organized." There are rituals, prayers, holy days, and hierarchies. Without those elements, the religion would fade into obscurity, like Zoroastrianism. Religions, like all organizations, compete for resources. Money is required to build temples and sustain the religious class. Most people in medieval times did not use money, so church building was the purview of monarchs. What monarch would support a chaotic neutral religion? It just strains credulity. Yeah, yeah--this is a world where dragons can fly and magic works, but I apply logic to those things as well.
I remember a particularly tense session where my lawful good dwarven cleric had a standoff with the thieves in the party because he wouldn't let them break open a sarcophagus to search for loot, disturbing the rest of a great hero.
The BEST RP for such a cleric would be when they found themselves in positions where they had to choose from among possibilities where none of the options is morally acceptable within their faith. Deciding the correct path would be difficult for such a person. It would require prayer and deliberation. If pressed, they would decide quickly out of necessity, but … it would likely give them lingering doubts about their choice and a need to seek absolution in case they chose improperly. They wouldn't have to be hellfire and brimstone-spewing, but they'd certainly spend their time doing "God's work" (whatever that looks like for their deity). I do like the notion that those who have committed a grave sin and temporarily disposed of their cleric to do it would not be helped by that deity unless they sought repentance and conversion… The danger of having a cleric in the party is that you're all somewhat bound to the cleric's morality.
I just found this channel recently and liked what I heard...so I subscribed. However, I would NEVER play in a GM’s game that you only reach 6th level in 25 YEARS!! (Real time?)
Full disclosure: averaged out, we only play twice a year. Stay tuned to my XP and Level advancement video. I'm working on it now; it drops in 2-3 weeks.
The Paladin exists because there's not very many literary examples of the Christian Priest-as-Warrior unless you are versed in folklore. But everyone in America knows about the Knights of The Round Table. Arthur, Lancelot and Galahad are Prototypical Paladins, complete with mechanics for redemption thru questing.
Alright. I got a cleric of life in my campaign who just debated over healing an acolyte, a member of her church in her charge, that was escorting her and the party. His friends were begging her to save him. She was debating burning a spell slot, so I said that he bled out, and hammered her with -3 ethos, (putting her at -1 on a scale of -6 to 6) and saying her god is beyond appalled at her refusal to help. After being admonished by the party, she also rolled a 7 when trying to administer burial rites to the man on the road. I'm already going to fizzle all spells, and replace the next healing spell she tries to cast as a negative energy spell (heal the undead, harm living) until she prays and asks forgiveness, she's already considering not being able to cast cleric spells and is considering switching classes in game (I'm fine with it, a former cleric becoming an evil warlock is very appropriate IMO) but my question is how to best haunt a PC, specifically a cleric who is actively turning against her god? Never done it before. Also: Brewed this up last night, after a great session running an adaptation of this campaign: the alter in your campaign is a chaos artifact ala Warhammer40k (the D&D world is a backwater forgotten imperial world) and is corrupting the lands surrounding the keep. Eventually a portal will open via sister rituals performed at the same time beneath the keep chapel and in the caves, where the artifact lies. There are 7 keystones, which open secret doors in the keep and the caves. Right now it just seems they open a secret door in the wall to enter and exit the keep unseen by guards. However, deep in the caves one door opens to a ritual chamber with the artifact. The artifact is an inactive portal to the Gods of Chaos that requires 5 keystones arranged in a star to stabilize the portal, one in the middle to open the portal, and the last to be strategically placed to guide the monsters to their target. That last one will be placed underneath the chapel by the friar, to entice the monsters to attack the keep. (The party already found one) I secretly hope they survive but fail to seal the portal and I get to end the campaign by dropping waves of my warhammer minis on them. How long would a party last against plague marines? I want to know...
Whoah. Epic post there. I'd tell the cleric exactly what the god expects a week of fasting and prayer and to give all her money away to the poor. Then I'd restore the Ethos. Space Marines vs sword-wielding barbarians in steel armor? One round. No more. Everyone would be slaughtered.
I completely disagree. I am a BECMI/1 ed player but I think clerics can be played in many ways. The job of a cleric is to get followers, why would they withhold curing from people that they could convert by showing the awesome power and generosity of their god/immortal. Or what better way to get more followers than to kill off those who believe other than you do if you follow a god of war. Also, why can't they marry? Most religions on earth allow their priest/etc marry. Again, what better way to create more followers than to literally create new followers. Clerics are a diverse and complex class and this was a very limited take on clerics and so very restrictive. As long as the behavior is consistent with what the god/immortal stands for, it is appropriate and should be encouraged.
Glad you watched the video. I worked very hard on that one and I hope you at least appreciate the B-roll shots. I agree a public healing/curing could create converts. As to marrying--clerics are not priests. They MAY be priests, but they're far more. In my world they're more akin to saints--the 1 in a 1000 individual with a direct connection to their deity. Saints like Mother Teresa, Thomas Becket, and Joan of Arc were 100% fanatically devoted to a greater cause and were willing to sacrifice everything for that cause. In my experience, that's incompatible with family raising. Keep in mind that characters in my game do not progress to 20th level. They generally die in combat. Clerics just die for a noble purpose. From a game perspective, clerics have to have some restrictions because otherwise they just have unlimited power. Fighters can do whatever they want. Clerics need to follow a code, which is 90% prayer and 10% kicking ass. Thanks for commenting and I hope you watch more Dungeoncraft, even if we disagree.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I appreciate the effort and everything you put into your videos. There is a lot of good advice and interesting content. I agree that clerics can get too strong in later versions which is probably why I am more forgiving on how they are played. As long as they follow the ideals of their god/immortal and the commands of their order, I am good with most else. I do agree there should be more effort put into gaining converts. I just think most players don't like that part so I am lenient on that as well. Thanks again. I spent most of my evening last night just watching your old videos as I just discovered your channel.
@@skull9674 To paint Jonas Kane, start with brown and layer it up to crimson, then to red, just like in the video. That's a very well-sculpted mini that paints itself.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Surprisingly enough I found that the new Contrast Paints from GW work REALLY well. I used that for most of the model and then my metallic were standard Apple Barrel Walmart paint followed by an agrax earth shade wash. Came out pretty nice
I gave you your thousandth like for the video. lol Great advice and thoughts on clerics. Could your alignment system also affect the casting of prayers as well?
Thanks for another great video. One question: with your rules for no initiative and speeding up combat, how/when do you make these extra rolls? If, during a combat round, each player rolls both a d20 as well as their damage dice, would the cleric and mu also include a second d20 for degree of success as well?
I think you've got a pretty strong bias towards a western/Judeo-Christian cleric. Dnd has a lot of gods whose followers wouldn't necessarily behave the way you're describing.
Thematically and conceptually, I prefer Paladins to Clerics. Mechanically, I find Clerics preferable in some ways (power and versatility) and frustrating in others (I feel clerics using the same spells/day mechanics as wizards blurs the distinction between magic and miracles in a way I find uncomfortable as a man of serious faith in real life). I also feel that in all editions but _especially_ in 4th and 5th, the two classes are so redundant with each other they hardly seem like they're justified in even being separate classes at all (same with Fighter vs. Barbarian). My ideal solution would be to allow arcane spellcasters like wizards and sorcerers to learn healing spells, exactly as bards do, and find a different system of limitations for the Fist of Divine Retribution that shows both the fearsome power of the Heavens and that it is _that power_ that is the arm while the Paladin/Cleric is the hammer, not the other way around. I haven't yet found a good way to present this in mechanical terms, but "Fall from grace and lose access to all your character's special features, becoming temporarily nothing more than a mediocre Fighter" is paramount to this endeavor. Seeing the way you handle magic in general here feels about right for that to me - no limits on how often you can cast, just the player asks for a miracle, dungeon master decides on the difficulty of the roll, asks the player to roll, then describes the results. "I wish to strike fear into these fearless skeleton minions!" might just mean "roll anything but a 1" while "Raise this person from the dead in full health" might demand a 1% chance on percentage dice. Game Master might arbitrarily grant a completely different effect than the one asked for, or be more lenient about granting _something_ beneficial if the player is _less_ specific about the miracle his cleric is praying for. Meanwhile, arcane mages would use what I consider a more traditional system of spells - not spells per day as usual for D&D, but more like a Magic Points meter in most videogames. (My introduction to the role-playing genre was Dragon Warrior, and that informs a lot of my other choices and biases.) I go back and forth about wanting to represent verifiable miracles and divine powers at all in my setting or make a more secular setting full of arcane casters who have the same kinds of theological discussions and disagreements we have in the real world. But for me it's basically all or nothing: Either the Crystal Dragon Jesus high fantasy monotheistic church that is very clearly based on medieval Catholicism with a little modernization _or_ fully secular fantasy world where religion isn't touched on much and presumed, if anything, to be more or less a fantasy version of Christendom. And as far as divine interference from the infernal side/evil clerics. "Cleric of an Evil God? _Oh,_ you mean a Warlock making a pact with a devil!" I don't believe there _should be_ an exact mirror counterpart of some classes for every alignment. Divine favor requires you to at least be making a good faith attempt at being Good, getting the powers of a warlock requires you to sell your soul to a fiend or make an inconvenient but less morally reprehensible deal with some arch fey. And gauging good faith from the player? That's the purview of a living, breathing Dungeon Master.
I changed the name from "cleric" to "priest." My players MUST make a Priest of a GOD (I list the Gods in my campaigns for them to pick from). That god has restrictions on Weapons, Armor, Spell, and ACTIVITIES! I also use Prohibitions based on the Deity in question's "worldview." I used Runequest's Cults as my inspiration for D&D Clerics/Priests. I too use a Skill Check for miracles too but the priest adds or subtracts their PIETY SCORE to their DC. Piety is gained or lost through the Priest's own actions (including daily worship of the deity) and I score it from -10 to +10 much like the Professor's "corruption points."
I once played a cleric named Father Glaston Ravenhurst. He was a grave domain cleric, and relentlessly purged undead. He was a fanatic, and wouldn’t think twice about charging the gates of hell for his god. He always accepted surrender, unless the captive was undead, demonic, or otherwise an unholy abomination. Then he purged them and said a prayer for their soul. He would be nonstop quoting the Bible, every session. He was fun.
ONCE UPON A TIME, A LONG TIME AGO....... 1.) Had some new players to our local game shop. They were a long for the ride in a game that the house was running. The DM says," Now will be a good time for the clerics to start praying." The new players asked, why are two of your group are talking like con men, and that guy over there sounds like he is picking a fight ? Here is the Run Down: a.) Brother Brown Nose," the A$$ Kisser." making a diplomacy skill check with a +2bonus from Bluff. His church, uh, well, he is just an as$ kisser. b.) Irish cleric of Lies: making a Bluff check with a +2bonus from diplomacy, street con artist kissing as$ and lying the whole time. c.) barbarian war cleric : Intimidation skill check, his god only respects shows of strength .
I reject the idea of divine magic as something separate from arcane magic. I suspect this imagined divide arose among D&Ders during the Satanic Panic: “No, Ma! My character’s a priest, ma, a good guy; his spells come straight from his god!” Anyway, the divine magic idea logically ropes us into the all-clerics-are-zealots trope, and I find that unnecessary. My campaign tends to be “low-fantasy” where magic exists but remains complicated and mysterious. The divine magic model makes clerics incorruptible, because their gods are unquestionably involved all the time. A world of incorruptible clergy sounds extremely “high-fantasy” to me.
I think a Life cleric who would value clemency and peace would come from a big empire that has to have other nations under it in a state of subjugation. Like Rome and its provinces. The Romans literally had "Clemency" Pax Orbus Terarum "Peace on Earth" and Spas "Hope" on their coins.
I played a cleric that pissed off my party immensely. I worshiped a deity comparable to Thor. My goal was martyrdom. I wouldn’t heal anyone who fell in battle, believing that was the only sure path to a afterlife filled with joy. I finally died while holding the line as my party retreated, sadly none of my party members objected because they hated the only healer refusing to heal. But the dm loved it and I received a glorious ROLE PLAY scene and death speech.
Dude that's sick and I'm totally stealing that.
Putting the RP back into RPG.
A rare sight these days.
😂🤣😂 that’s hilarious
Yes Nothing more annoying than the non-healer cleric in your party The traditional cleric is admittedly a rather dull construct, there like potions or some magical device totally focused on keeping your party alive. I keep playing with the idea of using a non-combatant NPC healer in my group, for that basic function. It's like the doc in the NFL just there to shoot them up with pain killers and steroids and stimulants so they cam go back out there quicker to get killed again. I generally don't find it that rewarding a role so either give the party a device to heal them or an NPC if no one really enjoys doing what is a game mechanic to cut down on down time for the party.
It doesn't say you have to heal others, just that you can
0:54 Aaaand I just got an idea for an NPC! Meet Urban the Urban Druid - idling about rainy streets in his moldy robe, pockets full of rats and cockroaches; talking to homeless dogs, tending to basement mildew, sickly market square trees and an occasional flower-bed. People may hate him and his lice, but he doesn't mind, he knows his importance. Who else would stand between the good townsfolk and the plague, the drought, the flood?
Urban druid. CLASSIC!
Dungeon Craft why not? There are urban gloomstalker rangers! Kind of Rogue’n’th’Hood.
Varro the urban druid
Enemies & Allies
Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition
Summon pigeons?
"Why would you play X when you could play a Cleric?" - All of my experiences with D&D, sometimes substituted with "Wizard".
A common lament.
It's not their fault that they're fun to play... it's just that every other class is much less entertaining.
I ran a DCC campaign with 4 clerics level 6 clerics, no other classes. The power was overwhelming
Clerics and paladins both would adhere to the tenets of their faith. Much of the descriptors given for the cleric assume a Christian/LG-CG ethos. A cleric of an evil god would be the first to cut the throat of that 0 level enemy described--but would more likely want make a sacrifice to that Dread Lord.
A cleric of Bacchus would be all about the wine and orgies.
Clerics are really hard to play.
Great material!
Lmao I’m a cleric
Lol been playing one for years... "Another mission?" (Crap... I just wanted to stay in town and enjoy some down time... I hate wearing heavy armor when my brother is a mage and has a mage armor spell. Heavy sigh...
@@rogerb181 my go to for years was always a half elf ranger/cleric. Very occasionally a ranger/druid.
I agree that too many look at the cleric with a Christian viewpoint. My first character was a cleric back in '81 with the B/X Moldvay rule set and he was a monster hunter as Dave Arneson envisioned for the class. I think the view of clerics being more like a priest instead of a crusaders or monster hunter came about in 2nd Edition AD&D and that was the beginning of the downfall for the class in D&D, as well as the addition of the Paladin class in AD&D. The cleric is my favorite class to play and none of my clerics were ever the priest type or invested with gaining converts or followers for their deity. The relationship with their Deity was personal and one where the Deity sought out the character to work their will on the material plane, whatever it may be.
@@brianevans9719 My preference on a cleric in my own setting is a Lightbringer, one who is empowered to venture out into the world to bring the light of cleansing to dark places. They normally investigate mysterious events, and hunt the undead. They encourage local villagers in the faith, mainly through deeds that show the power of their God. They solve problems through diplomacy, or combat when needed. Zombie problem? Solved. Bandit problem? Gather some adventurers together and go handle that too. Village needs the shrine fixed to his god? He would donate to restore it to honor his god. Spending alot of time presenting sermons and counseling the locals is for a resident priest, not a fully powered adventuring cleric. He seeks out the battles others fear.
The idea of healing spells not working on people who did evil behind the cleric's back is genius
Thanks!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 This, all the time!
2:01 - In _Dracula: Prince of Darkness,_ Christopher Lee does nothing but hiss, because he said the script was so bad, he refused to say any of the lines written for him. One more reason why Lee was a fucking legend!
When he played the monster he was upset he got no lines and peter Cushing told him “count yourself lucky. trust me i’ve read the script” and that was how the 2 became amazing friends
@@v0dka885 - LOL! Yes, I heard that one too.
So, he was really hissing at the scriptwriter? That’s straight awesome.
The script writer claims Lee is exaggerating and that he wrote no lines for him. I remain unconvinced. Why would any writer with access to talent like Lee choose not to write lines for him? It’s an absurd claim.
@@chriswaltner7028 - Exactly. Sounds like the very thing a crappy writer would say. 😆
I would love to play a cleric at your table. Clerics are extensions of their god, they are a tool of their god, and this is where they can vary. I have played clerics for 20 years now and my fellow players never know if they are going to love or hate my character. There have been many times fellow players have come into conflict with my characters or looked for other characters to involve because they know my character would cause problems later on. I love the focused intensity of a cleric and they are my favorite class.
I'm playing a life cleric in Curse of Stradh. If the rest of the party doesn't pray with me every morning, they're not getting any of my healing. Popular? No. Am I having fun with it? Yes.
One of the ‘clues’ someone was a vampire in the old stories is they didn’t go to church.
U sound like an expendable player
As I go through your older videos, I am encouraged by how much we agree on so many things. You are trying to change D&D in the same way I’m trying to design a different game.
Good points all around.
Thanks for your support.
I really like what you're offering on this channel. Everyone has different play styles. Every dungeon master is different. Your insight on the way magic and initiative work in opinion is good stuff. Thanks Professor Dungeon Master:)
Dustan Mcarthur couldn’t agree more I don’t run things exactly the same as PDM but it’s in the same vein in many ways.
You are welcome and I appreciate the compliment, Dustan! Makes me want to work hard on another video (which is what I should be doing right now!)
So for the last 2 years I have played a level 13 Abjurer in 5e named Geome Samson Due. He is a bumpkin hedge Wizard who is also a devout believer of Saint Cuthburt from Greyhawk. The Saint is a God of Commonsense and Zeal. His domain is knowledge and I it think would attract a lot of mages and the like. Unless pushed to action my Wizard will never strike an enemy dead. He is quite clearly not a cleric though. He's not ordained but he prostlasyzes for the church, converts new members and openly damns sinners. He's becoming increasingly fanatical as an outsider (probably an angel) has been whispering in his ear otherworldly secrets that make the core notes of his new wizard spells. It's great. I think I will multuclass him into a cleric for the remainder of the game. It makes a lot of sense narratively.
"Your weapon is stolen by an enemy theif."
"I smash his skull in with my tome."
"Okay-- wait what?"
When the cleric beats someone to death with his holy book, it's hilarious.
Activate Tavern Brawler feat!
@Bronson Mohamed Why are you here telling us this?
This was the stadard attack for a healer/cleric in a jrpg, cant remember its name.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY MEANT BY "BIBLE THUMPING"!
🤣
"The power of $deity compels you! *THWACK!*" 🤣🤣
*ahem* No, no, I'm okay, really.
*THWACK!* 🤣 I don't know why that's so funny, but it is…
I played a 5e game where the Cleric was beholden to a Goddess of War, The DM dictating the will of the Goddess.
That will being the Cleric shall live so others may die in combat.
I played a warrior who was tired of war, was reluctant to kill, and sought fortune an adventure to redeem a vampire hooker spy, in the hopes of living with her in peace.
Imagine the fun that came from that.
Can't wait for the vid on Druids (They're literally my favourite class!)
LOL--literally. I had druids in here but it got too long. This vid was so frustrating, by the end I was like--screw the druids! So it will be a while, honestly. I need to rest up a while and do some easier videos. I'll try to get to it by the summer, though.
Long videos are fine, let’s see it!
Druids: th-cam.com/video/mswUFvQJ6Js/w-d-xo.html
Implementing this for sure!
In under 15 minutes, you've revolutionized the way I think about Clerics. I'm definitely keeping these ideas with me, going forward. I'm IN LOVE with your channel, thank you very much for sharing your wisdom!
Thanks for loving the channel. Great stuff coming up (not this Thursday, though--I can't upload every week).
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Quality over quantity, just the way I like it.
First appearance of Deathbringer? And the Strumpets too! Allstar cast.
I like Clerics in 5e but also agree with you here, there are some fantastic ideas even for a high fantasy game.
For anyone wanting to do a trickster cleric in this method by the way, go read The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch. The priests of the god of thieves in that world fit in very well with the professors ideas here.
I LOVE that book. At least the first half.
Love the paintwork! Cleric of tymora and trickery/rogues affords a bit of breadth, interest & fun but is a bit of a random
friar tuck might be a literary example of a traveling cleric.
Gotta say that the idea of a god that would give you a boring, years-long task and then reward you for quitting it and proving that you aren't a moron is the kind I can get behind as a cleric.
A.G.
As a huge fan of miniatures I like that you used them as examples.
You'll love next week's episode: a gallery walk of every mini company I own
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I am really looking forward to seeing that!
I understand the restrictions for balancing purposes but that stuff is turning towards the whole situation that gave clerics and paladins a bad name in 3.5. Not many people want to play clerics as well due to the stigma of them only being healers so i think that the features are likely over compensating
I have definitely seen the war cleric a lot in games. And it outshines the martial builds even with min/maxing.
Do you run paladins similarly? Do you even include paladins in your games? The setting is so dark fantasy is imagine paladins, like clerics, are quite rare.
War cleric only shines until 5th level and only then if you are not giving the players multiple multiround combats. He also loses access to the awesome spiritual weapon spell, since his BA is used hitting things himself. After 5th level your warcleric should stop hitting things and start slinging spells because he isn't as good at it as a fighter or barbarian.
I typically only play clerics. In my game experience it seems that some players don’t even understand the role of the cleric in a party as they believe they are only back field healers and have no other purpose. And over proselytizing role play only begins to irritate some players. Personally I enjoy that part of the cleric class but it seems to be typically misunderstood. With that said, I’ll never stop playing the cleric.
That temptation segment though....
What else do clerics think about in their weak moments?
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Indeed. I just feel sorry for the clerics. I wouldn't last past lvl. 0 in your game as a cleric (or probably in general).
Another top notch video.
This is just a suggestion for all the followers of Professor Dungeon Master. Three days ago I shared a link to DungeonCraft on three different Facebook groups. One a city wide group, one state wide group, and one National group for D&D. Followers st that point were 4517 today it’s 4556. I lay no claim to the 39 followers in three days but it certainly wouldn’t hurt if all 4556 followers of PDM shared a link to his channel in a similar way.
Again this is just a suggestion. Me personally I don’t see why PDM doesn’t have 50k followers already. His videos make the most sense of all the D&D channels and I like his style of play. I’d like to see more people have a chance to see what he has to offer.
Find a local D&D Facebook group and a state one and a national one. Let’s see if we can’t get PDM up to 10k followers by March 1st.
Thanks, Erik! I am very grateful for your support.
hey I found his channel 3-4 days ago and his subscription base jumped from 7200 to 8100. It is one of the better RPG channels
@elrond3737 yep his subscribers are gonna be rocketing up the next few months. He’s got some of the very best content.
I currently play a cleric of Tymora based on Sonny from the film "Apostle" starring Robert Duvall. So there is that... Role playing a cleric as a religious zealot is not only the right way to play one; it is also the most fun way to play one..
I'm happy to see the Vampirella figure finally got some screen time.
Ha, yes. Cleric is my go-to class. Martyrdom? My pile of dead clerics can attest to that. Although a few of those died stupidly in the dark, but we don't talk about that... Outside of healing, the Bless spell is where it's at for the low-level party buff. My most recent religious nutjob (using The Black Hack) treats the undead as unwilling pawns with the intent of sending them to final rest. The Black Hack has the magical misfire potential when performing rituals, so he's had to roll on the d100 mishaps table a couple of times when his god denied him....
Love it!
i don't want to sound offensive, but i would never play a cleric with you, there so many role-playing restrictions and the chance to just lose the ability to cast spells that it is like playing Russian Roulette.
I woud say that the code of religion greatly depends on the church you are part of.
There are hard guidelines for the cleric, but they must feel fundamentaly different, depending of the gods they serve.
This is importent, because religion is a big part of the world and the cleric must represent that.
Mercy is not for evrery god and some might even call it a disgrace aganst the opponent to spare him/her. Same goes for other things.
Good point. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
Originaly it is a german systhem. So you need to fall back on a translation( witch is good thou)
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 sorrx for bad spelling btw 0_o
@@rotschadel3574 I häve to check out "the Black Eye." I've not heard of it.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 i am stupid it is called dark eye ;D
A black eye is a punch to the face, right?
That was well thought out! I've never seen anyone really delve into the meaning of the commitment. I've known one player who towed the line in thought and action, and it was a reflection of his personal philosophy, so he was comfortable. A nat 20 for Resurrection is very old school! I also think everything they do should be hands on or fairly adjacent for 'miracles'.
Thanks. That's why this video took so long.
Great summation of Clerics! I always tried to play my clerics bordering on fire and brimstone.
Note, I still play B/X BECMI.
I think they're more interesting that way.
I appreciate the d20 roll for casting spells (many 5e spells are no longer automatic), but I'm not quite sold on the second (severity?) d20 roll.
First, one of the tips for faster combats is to roll to hit and damage at the same time. Do you roll 2d20s at the same time for spells?
Second, it seems redundant to roll the exact same die that you just rolled for the spell again for severity. Can't you fold in the severity based on the to hit roll? If they beat their minimum, the spell works weakly, if they beat it by 5 or more it's normal, if they beat it by 10 or more it has extra power. I would understand the need for a second roll if you were using percentile dice for lots of potential effects (like Wild Magic Surges in 5e). Perhaps you meant that the second roll is only used for "fumble" severity, so it wouldn't come up often and slow the game down much.
Where I think the Clerics of 5e really fall down is not having spell lists be dependent on the deity worshiped. Why would Lathander, Chauntea, and Bane all grant the exact same prayers to their followers? I think the whole idea of Domains was generic customization, but it's a fail in my opinion. If you're not tailoring the hierarchy, religious requirements, and spells by the individual god, it just doesn't seem logical to me. WOTC could have used the deities of the Forgotten Realms for "domains" and DMs could re-skin them for their own campaign settings. I mean, a Sun God is a Sun God no matter if he's called Ra or Helios.
Both your Wizard and Cleric spell rules use the same limitation, spells that backfire causing damage/death. This is a Russian Roulette style mechanic. I can see the appeal of a less pass/fail limit like channeling the forces of the universe (whether arcane or divine) saps your energy. This can be fatigue or spell points. Or, I was anticipating you to advocate for having spells cost HP to cast (given your gritty style). If each spell cost 1+level of spell HP to cast, then a wizard with 20 HP can cast a score of cantrips before they pass out... or two ninth level spells (if their level allows). Taking damage from attacks would also reduce HP, so if you're beat up you will pass out from casting a taxing spell. After all, you can't logically say that casting a spell is equivalent to swinging a sword. One breaks the laws of physics, the other is bound by it. One channels massive forces, the other moves a 3 lb. lump of steel. I have yet to see anyone make a rational argument that casting a cantrip like Frost Bolt is equivalent to swinging a sword (at least not one that makes a lick of sense, that is), but that was WOTCs actual justification for why cantrips are now unlimited.
I'd love to hear from anyone who has play tested a spells cost HP system and what their impressions were, thanks.
It doesn't sound like cleric prayers cause death-they merely represent the god choosing not to answer prayers until a condition is met, even if that condition is merely the passage of a little time.
I like the idea of spells/prayers being draining in this way, but I still think a to-hit roll is warranted. Costing HP doesn't seem right particularly for a cleric, but I don't know how else to represent the cost offhand. What I'm leaning toward is that a natural 1 is effectively the same as a wild magic surge. Random things happen which are not "the spell works", roll to see what. Some of the possible outcomes are disastrous. Some are inconvenient. Some are just unexpected. Some might even be beneficial, but not in the way you expect!
I love these ideas! Too often I see clerics and paladins played like regular characters. Even saw one at an event who kept loudly proclaiming he was an atheist and his powers came from within. Dumb that the DM didn't step in and smite him or something. The cleric or the paladin is SUPPOSED to be the stick in the mud to the murder hobos in the group. Otherwise, play a fighter or a magic user.
I approve this post. There is no such thing as an atheist cleric.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 They could simply see Gods as high-level magic users. It's hard to argue against that if their (clearly a God like all the rest) "God" argues the same about itself and all the other Gods.
Very cool insights in this video
that was good.....changed the way I game them now ( I used some of this )
Cool!
You always have gameplay ideas that are pragmatic and easy to apply. This is one of the most practicle approaches to clerics i have seen
Fantastic as usual! Spot on. Thanks for these gems of wisdom
You're welcome. I'm happy with this video. It was tough to make bu we're very proud. Please share!
I love your videos but you are wrong to say that clerics don’t have a literary tradition. In fact, theirs is far older than that of Rangers and Barbarians! The Song of Roland from ~1115 has a character named Archbishop Turpin who is quite the fierce warrior. I remember identifying with him in my Medieval Literature class in college as I always played a cleric in my Basic, Expert and AD&D days back in the 80s.
Professor, please check out The Song of Roland a classic poem with tons of D&D plot hooks and ideas to inspire the reader!
Dang, now I want to read again....
Will do. Song of Roland may feature a cleric but its not part of the collective consciousness. I will DEFINITELY look at Bishop Turpin though. Thanks!
You hit it right on the nose. I've also seen that behavior in Star Wars with Jedi called 'Lightsaber syndrome', basically the player wants all the benefits of the class but refuses to accept or roleplay the responsibilities and limitations.
I really like your style, it's much more like hardcore mode.
No meta gaming, no backsies, death is death and real consequences occur.
Today there is little to nothing left of this in 5e.
It reminds me of Baldor Gate II were I went on a mission to revenge the paladins family. Only to find out that he was expelled from his order. Which was funny because I needed him around for turning undead so I kept him on the team. Yet from time to time he would go bananas and start attacking the party who were responsible for him getting expelled.
That's why I kept charm person in my prepared spell list to calm the poor soul down and keep him in line.
Looking back, I was a cruel part leader. 'So I shattered your dreams? Sucks to be you, I am still not done with you. Obey, slave!'
Hardcore mode is a good way you describe it.
I didn't pick up D&D until 5th edition, but what got me into D&D was old school D&D concepts like this. Paladins aren't fighters with holy powers, they're champions of a good and they can't permit evil to go unchallenged. That is a romanticized version of a medieval superhero. That's what I like about Paladins and Clerics.
For me the best example of what a paladin wants to be is Sturm Brightblade from Dragonlance.
I’d go with Jamie Lanaster. Not so much who he was as a flawed person but the ideas he wanted to embody.
The knights of the round table are also a good example.
And the word Paladin itself comes from Charlemagne’s personal knights.
They aren’t champions of good they’re champions of the state. The powers are grated by virtue of being in a holy state and serving a holy monarch.
It follows the divine right of kings. This kingdom exists because god deems it so and empowers his loyal followers with the power to defeat their enemies. The effect is his appointed knights get holy powers. This is referenced in works talking about Charlemagne’s and King Arthur’s round table.
The champions of good are good aligned clerics. They follow their god directly.
@@jeremymullens7167 that is actually a very good explanation. That should be in the PHB.
In 5e, they divorced profession and character classes using the background feature. You may not like it, but I love it.
I played a Hexblade Warlock the same way a Cleric would be played as a character in Professor Dungeon Master's mind. And it was all thanks to the Acolyte background.
I was there performing the funeral rites of innocent victims to comfort the survivors, as well as that of my slain enemies to honor their bravery in battle. If my enemies showed disrespect, I would use the Accused Specter feature on them as punishment and also to grant one last chance at redemption.
I fashioned this character as a devout blessed with the powers (and burdened with the responsibilites) of a Valkyrie. And yes, she was all about getting people to Valhalla or Folkvangr, including the other players. She would give everything to the temple to make it prosper, and the temple would in turn improve her equipment before sending her back to fight evil.
I find it strange that the actual Cleric class didn't inspire me this, but the Hexblade Warlock did. And it could be played out thanks to background features.
I think you are trying to force a romanticized version of Christianity onto the clerics of your game.
Why would Waulkeen require poverty?
Why would Sune require chastity?
Why would Gruumsh require obedience?
Mercy from a cleric of Lolth?
All Clerics should be devoted to their deity and should follow precepts set down by them. However those precepts should reflect the deity or pantheon(as it might be reasonable for a cleric to serve a group of collaborating gods) that said cleric is trying to represent.
A DM imposing their real life concepts of theism onto a fantasy world is a bad idea.
Clerics have always been a little problematic as they were first presented and even currently from my perspective, especially in a world where there are multiple gods. I've run monotheistic and polytheistic worlds--in a polytheistic world, one of the worst things that stretches back to early D&D is making that cleric declare his or her patron deity. Priests of antiquity honored and sacrificed to all the gods of their tradition. A priest might serve in the temple of a particular deity, and spend time exploring the mysteries of same said deity--for the sake of argument lets say the Temple of Zeus---but for healing he or she would still approach Apollo, for a good harvest he/she would approach Demeter, and for a successful birth, they would still approach Hera with offerings and sacrifice.
Within a Greek Mythology setting, I can easily see turning undead as something a cleric might so this in the name of Hades as the keeper of the Underworld. In most traditions that I'm aware of, the gods of the underworld guarded the souls in their domains quite jealously. It's very possible these would be the powers that a priest call upon so that they might take the dead back to where they rightfully belong. Instead of a holy symbol, the priest or priestess might hold up a coin to place under the undead monster's tongue pr over their eyes for the ferryman. If the turn undead is successful you might even describe that all the characters smell a river, and hear the ferryman's bell ringing, and hear the snarling of a three headed dog near to hand. Between the coin and those sounds of the servants of Hades, the undead flee and if it's a critical success where the undead are destroyed outright--have Cerberus appear to rip them to shreds. So in a D&D Greek religious cosmology---Hades guards the dead, upholding the rightful order of the gods, but the demon prince of the undead, Orcus, is constantly defying Hades and stealing souls from his domain at every turn, so he (Orcus) can send those souls back into the world of the living. Why? He's a demon. Defying the natural order of the gods is what demons do. It's just their jam.
The exploring the religious cosmology of any given fantasy game world can really give new life into what it means to running priests, paladins, druids (who weren't just nature focused Celtic priests, but they were also law givers, judges, soothsayers, and authorities on traditions in an oral society.) What happens to souls after death in your D&D world? Do people just become shadows in an ashen world where they almost remember the lives they lived--is the only mortality one can hope for through notions like kleos and time' as in the world of Homer? That's a whole different set of motives for not only priests, but individual characters. Are there such things as saints? Is martyrdom venerated? If so, why? The pre-Christian Norse were not terribly compelled by martyrdom--not when the halls of Valhalla might yet be open to them. Are monastic traditions of different orders of clergy temporary like the Roman Vestal Virgins, or are they life long like in Catholicism? In agrarian civilizations, fertility is the whole ballgame--fertility of the fields, fertility of flocks and herds, fertility of a populace. Why would these athletes of the gods separate themselves from that natural order of things and take vows of chastity instead of setting an example for their flock to follow?
I agree that yes, prisoners were taken for ransom, but this extended to Christian on Christian violence--there were different rules when fighting infidel and heathen armies. Do goblins deserve quarter and charity? Or are they a living plague and abominations sent into the world as direct manifestation of the power of their demon gods, Maglubiyet or Gruumsh for the orcs, and should be slaughtered to the last like diseased rats? If giving quarter to humanoids is something the gods decree, what is the benefit to them and the societies that worship them? This is a topic I've given quite a bit of thought to over time
Interesting take on how the clerics powers work, and how he or she can lose them, both temporarily or permanently.
I was going to say that the natural 1 roll to lose connection with ones God or Goddess seemed odd with the second roll of natural 20 being the worst result, until I realised 1-19 was the number of rounds till the bond is reestablished,but a 20 means DAYS of penance, hence the worst possible punishment!
Starting a new game (campaign) after 30 plus years of not playing great vidz keep up the great work.... playing 3.5 rules.
3.5 was great. Thanks for your viewership!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 your welcome!! I will be making a stop motion movie based on D&D soon. After I finish my 2nd episode of Star we SMUGGLERS TALE.
I'm starting to think the Cleric and Paladin should switch kits. Especially how Paladins can fall from grace mechanically.
You make me want to play a cleric. Your clerics are like paladins. How do you differentiate between the two, besides game mechanics?
I really love your approach to DnD. Maybe you could do a giant episode covering each class and the rules you use for them. Can Wizards wear armor? Use swords? Can clerics use blades? What makes a fighter special and distinct from other classes?
Thanks for watching. No need to wait for a future episode. Re: wizards: No. Yes. No. More HP & higher AC.
I think Clerics are a little too close to Paladins.
In 1e Adnd Paladins didn’t get spells till name or close to it. That means practically the end of the game.
Paladins are knights in shining armor the epitomizes that romantic idea. They’re knights of the round table, Charlemagne’s Paladins, The Kings guard of Westeros.
A Barbarian society on the fringes of the world can have clerics but they won’t have Paladins.
The Cleric order supplies their own system and operate in many areas.
A Paladin requires a certain level of organization in the civilization they exist in. Paladins also require the monarch they follow to be lawful good.
A Paladin is more beholden to ideas of valor and justice and honor. If the people perceive the knight as not elite they are in danger of losing enough face to lose their position as elite knight of the kingdom.
A cleric by contrast answers directly to their god. The only reputation they care about is with their diety. They will show valor and justice if their god is good but are less concerned about keeping face or politics in general. I would point you to many stories in the Bible where a prophet suffers. A cleric may not always have status in a society even if they have high status in their church. A Paladin always has status within the civilization they’re a part of.
The rural counterpart to the Paladins is the Ranger.
I think he reason they’re locked good is because being evil already gave benefits and there is a general encouragement to be good. I think neutral players were doing better in gygax’s games because they could play with the good team and evil team. That let them
Adventure more. Evil characters had the benefit of being evil and able to abuse those under them raise zombies and just be bad. In comparison good aligned characters were weak.
I also think it counteracts the multi classed demi humans.
Your description of the expected behavior of Clerics don’t seem to take into account the nature of the god they worship. While a good aligned god should indeed expect the behavior that you describe, what about a non-good deity? Clerics aren’t attached to Lawful and Good behavior like the Paladin used to be (even Paladins aren’t required to be Lawful Good any more).
I would like to hear more about the religions in your campaign setting, this would help me understand why clerics have to adhere to the tenets you describe.
Also, are there Paladins in your world? Do you require them to behave like the clerics do?
On the 'not healing one who does not believe in your god', If you are using the d&d pantheon, you need to embrace polytheism. A cleric of Palor and a cleric of Heironeous would be friendly rivals, and would not deny healing to members of each other's faiths. Especially if they are working towards the same goal. This also extends to thieves or a barbarian that worships kord, by all means peddle your faith, and be abnoxious about it if you like, but you also can't let your party fail in a holy crusade
This take on classes sits very badly with me.
For me, the name of a class and its description is at most the most generic of descriptions of the most usual kind, but is not in any way rules or creeds forced upon the character.
A Fighter might be a powerless village priest who got blessed with martial prowess by the divines, a Bard must not be a minstrel, but can also represent the generic life-loving adventurer, the Druid might be a Fey soul trapped in a human form, and of course the Cleric may just be a prince of a wealthy nation who decided to sit under a tree and realy realy reflect upon his own life, coming to the conclusion that he is holy only if he lives in a holy way (Hello adventuring Buddha).
A Cleric can be someone much like the fighter above, apointed by the divines to act as their instrument, it might be someone who ate pieces of a dead god and got some of its powers from it, but also a hunger for god-flesh.
My point boils down to this: What a class is depends mostly on Setting, not description in the player handbook.
In my gameworld, Clerics do not exist untill the 15th century, and were hunted by the church as witches, before slowly and usually by force being integrated into the churches, and then for quite some time basicly were seen as holy monsters to be locked up untlii needed to fight the good fight, and then back behind locked doors.
If you came to that game, arguing that "No but im a Cleric, it says in the book that im a priest" then we would need to have a conversation, because clearly then you have not taken part of/not cared about the setting i have provided.
When you’re describing clerics early on it sounds like you’re only considering clerics who are priests of Lawful Good deities... what about those who serve more neutral gods?
Also as a side note what if the cleric who is fighting chaotic evil opponents who already kill all their prisoners? Would he still be obligated to accept the surrender of a chaotic evil humanoid monster (so it can hope to escape and murder again one day)?
I don't know if I'd love or hate playing in one of your games...? 6th lvl after 25yrs?!! (I think I'd love it...at least for a year or two. :P) Good stuff, PDGM!
Ive been playing Curse of Strahd for about 5 months, with a large 1month break, not to mention another 4 week break, AND not even playing weekly. We are near the end and lvl 10. I would be so sad to play for 25 years and not hit lvl 7 on any character. Theres no point. It is a tabletop rpg. But at the end of the day it is about the game and the story forms AROUND the game. You can have gripping awesome stories while still playing a game. Ppl should write a book instead of nerfing casters to martial level and keeping players from ever getting a second ASI
My character would probably die of boredom of only being able to cast a few low level spells or maybe just die of old age if pdm didn't kill him off first.
lol.
I'm not so sure he means 25 years to get to level 6, just in 25 years never played characters beyond level 6.
(Sorry for the thread necro - I have just recently discovered this channel) I found this an interesting bit of context to keep in mind when watching this channel. There's generally no "wrong" way to play D&D, as long as everyone is having fun in a safe, friendly environment. However, this information makes crystal clear - even more than much of the other content - the type of hardcore, gritty, death-is-constantly-around-the-corner type of games he enjoys playing. Just don't look to him for guidance on campaigns with characters that reach even mid to high level.
On a personal level, I would never play in his games - this is not the type of fantasy gaming I enjoy. I make (and prefer to play in) campaigns that work to put the players at the center of an epic story.
Another cool video Prof DM
I often play clerics and they are real bible thumpers lol
Thoughts on Paladins? They share a lot the same conceptual space with Clerics. I do see the difference but am curious to how you run this class.
Paladins (at least the LG type) are what Clerics should be. Just delete the Cleric and rename the Paladin. I even think the Paladin's CHA stat is more appropo than WIS for a Cleric (since they have to preach, etc).
"Why play a fighter and not a war cleric?"
"Why play a cleric and not a wizard?"
There are actually really good mechanical answers to those questions. Do you want them, or was that mainly a rhetorical question?
This is just a glorified rant about 'players should stop metagaming and RP more!'. So i doubt he really wants an answer.
I have a soft spot for Clerics (first thing i ever played) and, even though i never played him like how you describe above, i still agree on everything you've stated.
If i ever play a Cleric again i'm going to do it properly, and i'll be watching this video again for a refresher course.
Another excellent video. Thanks again and keep up the good work.
Hmmm, you've got me thinking... Druid Spell Failure. That could get very dark and gnarly.
Interesting. In your world clerics sound like they’re all Lawful Good. There’s no clerics who might consider taking prisoners as part of their God’s wishes. No Greyhawk Hextor or Ares. No religions valuing personal freedom and individualism either, all strict hierarchal orders that are basically righteous.
Pretty accurate. That's how I roll.
I agree with many of your points, however I don't think that ALL clerics won't get married, heal others not of their faith, accept surrender and some of the other beliefs you spoke of. I feel that many of these rules may not follow some of the dieties based on alignment. A cleric of the folower of a CN god of War might have a much looser code of personal ethics but stronger rules about combat and the rules of law for those that might run in fear, fall asleep while on duty, etc.
When I play a cleric, I like to write down my clerics '10 commandments' to help me guide my characters ethics, this helps the GM as well to determine if I'm following up to my Gods Ethos.
I'd also encourage you consider to modify the clerics D20 roll for spells (prayers) based on how well they follow the rules. If the cleric is following all the Gods rules he/she might get a +2 bonus. If the clerics is also praying regularly ever day/night, fasting regularly, reading his holy script, converting people to his diety, giving regular surmons, etc then perhaps grant another bonus. If you award the players a (+1, 2, 3) die bonus for playing the character according to the Gods Ethos, they are more likely to follow their Gods commandments. (I think)
As a religious person myself, who isn't a Cathlic, I feel marriage and family is an essential part of my religion. I feel I could be a cleric or paladin in a fantasy game and still be a family man. The distance would make the marriage harder, however if I feel proselytize is esential to my faith, I make good money and am relativly safe, then I might continue. As a soldier, I'm deployed often for 6-8 months out of every 2 years. Being away from the family is a difficult challenge, however I feel I'm doing my duty to my country, God and show my sons and daughters how a father should provide for his family, serve his God and country.
Anyway, I enjoy your videos. Cheers mate.
Thanks for taking the time to reply! I agree clerics might be able to have families. I disagree about the War cleric. A war cleric would follow the the rules of engagement fanatically. That means ALWAYS accepting surrender and treating opponents with the utmost respect. That is the warrior Ethos. Not to mention that ransoming was a common practice in the Middle Ages. Cheers!
Some of what you say is spot on (well, to me, since White box,) but TBH sometimes you jump the shark. This one of those times.
That's okay. We can still be friends.
Yes! I was looking forward to this and you didn't disappoint. I can see the DCC RPG influences sprinkled in. Thank you!
On a side note: the "disappearing cleric" should be hearing from their god about looking the other way and should be required to make redeem the transgression to maintain cleric "magic" privileges.
You're welcome. Your comment means a lot to me, because it took an insanely long time to make this particular video.
I think the real issue is that Clerics and Paladins are waaay to similar
Why are they knights templar when thats what Paladins became? I mean, they made a class thats just another class but slightly shifted. IMO clerics shouldn't wear armor and be rather similar to wizards, just divine in nature and thus with rather different spells.
I agree. The thing about paladins (in 1st edition) is you needed to roll ridiculously high stats to even get to be one. They were super rare.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Its one of the more odd things considering it was already presumed to be rare; some of these relics of design were cool but should be moved away from imo.
@@chloepechlaner7806 in the fantasycraft main book paladins are prestige class. Would that make sense for the class?
@@longkuei it does work better, the question is; is the cleric differentiated enough from it, that is to say, not a martial class? Its an issue across systems and iterations of dnd in particular that clerics do their job the best and someone elses job better, and the issue with prestige classes is they're often (but not always) not worty the effort and sacrifices to obtain them.
As someone who mostly plays Pathfinder and 5e, the sheer monstrocity that is the cleric, or god forbid the warpriest, makes me swear off playing them. I mean, they have spells almost as good at later levels as the wizard, can wear armor, do melee combat, and thus have a far better earlygame. They can even get access to the best wizard spells sometimes! Its more than a little absurd. Imo the cleric should be a divine wizard, not a paladin with more spells, or a fighter with spells; which is what it currently is.
I gotta say, I disagree with the assertion that clerics need to be proselytizing. That model of adventuring holy-man is sharply Christian in its influences - and often more protestant than catholic. I prefer a more pagan approach, about doing great deeds as an offering to your god and seeking out those your god despises to be an instrument of wrath. What does your god need new followers for? He's doin' his thing one way or another.
To me, druids are more pagan. Dave Arneson, who conceived of the class,
modeled them on the Knights Hospitalleers & Abraham Van Helsing. The God does not need new followers but the religion does, in order to survive & keep pumping out clerics. Look for a follow up episode on religion, coming in 2021.
DnD after 2nd edition is silly
Hey Dungeon Craft, since your game is a mix of many editions, personal homebrew rules and 5e, do you have your players roll death saving throws when they drop to zero hit points or do they die at 0? Also big fan of your content, your channel and your minis. Recently picked up DCC and I cannot wait to run it. Do you have an email where I can reach out to you with more long-winded questions or comments?
5th edition pretty much makes characters into super heroes. If I chose to nerf the Cleric, wouldn't that unbalance them in relation to the other classes? One rule I like is the concept of initiative and casting in segments rather that as actions or bonus actions. Segments was prior to 5e, but left a chance that a caster who rolls a 5 for initiative won't be able to cast a spell that takes more than 5 segments to cast. on your initiative, you start casting. After the number of segments, the spell goes off unless you were interrupted. With 5e, it's either an action or a bonus action with not much chance for spell interruption which I do not like.
I agree with your evaluation of segments. Would that imbalance them? No. Because I take attacks from fighters and make wizards roll to cast spells. So everyone is de-superheroed equally. Cheers, Marshmallow Madness!
I'm a little more lineant on clerics. While there are purely faith based cleric I also allow the idea of a person being taught cleric spells but it has to come from a specific source and is based more on philosophy than intellect. Where for a wizard magic is a science, for clerics it's a philosophy. Wizards are over in the math and science department but clerics are over in the literature and history department. Bards...bards in the cafeteria buying both lunch to pick their brains for what they'll need to know in order to past the next test.
Cool beans! Thanks for sharing!
Might I suggest taking a look at the article from The Dragon #51, "Thou Shalt Play This Way - Ten Commandment for Paladins" by Robert J. Bezold. The short version is this - 1. Thou Shalt Accept The Counsels Of Thy Mentor And Obey All His Commandments. 2. Thou Shalt Defend Thy Mentor. 3. Thou Shalt Respect All Weaknesses And Constitute Thyself The Defender Of Them. 4. Thou Shalt Be Faithful To The Mentor Who Reared Thee. 5. Thou Shalt Not Recoil Before Thine Enemy. 6. Thou Shalt Make War Against Evil Without Cessation And Without Mercy. 7. Thou Shalt Perform Scrupulously Thy Duties To Thy Mentor. 8. Thou Shalt Never Lie, And Shalt Remain Faithful To Thy Pledged Word. 9. Thou Shalt Give Largely Of Thy Wealth. 10. Thou Shalt Be Everywhere And Always The Champion Of The Right And The Good Against Injustice And Evil. While this was written with the paladin character in mind and has greater depth for each of the commandments under each entry beyond what I posted here, I feel that it is also a very good fit with how you view the clergy as a whole since the paladin is simply step beyond the dedicated holy warrior monk.
Have you ever thought of writing up all your houserules? I'm inspired to run a OSR D&D after running your channel. I'll be cribbing some ideas from Dungeon Crawl Classics, as I see you have, but I would love to have a document which outlines your initiative, magic, character creation and character progression.
Not using skills, how do you handle classes who get expertise features? I'm curious as to how you blend 5e with so many OSR ideas.
Watch the next video. That's the topic. Spread the word.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 That's great to hear! on the topic of Clerics, do you have them prepare spells for the day, or allow them to attempt to pray for whatever spell effect they need in the moment?
@@Joshbehe Great question. Both. And more! A cleric must stop whatever they are doing and pray for 1 hour, three times a day. Then they can cast any spell they want.
It wouldn't be hard to not the house rules yourself. It would take about six pages. zero level play-through video character sheets. Not in this order, here are the basic rules as far as I have gathered.
+7 net ability score bonus build for 1st level, rather than ability score rolls.. A house rule would be every 4 levels you may add an additional +1 to a given ability bonus. Instead of STR 13 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 15 ( +7 total bonus). You simply note the ability modifier. It would look like this: STR +1 DEX +3 CON +1 INT +1 WIS -1 CHA +2. House rule for 5e: At level 4 you may add +1 to any ABILITY MODIFIER.
No Multi-Classing.
Optional: If non-human races are allowed, Racial Bonuses do not effect ability bonus score, but other characteristics may: Darkvision, Luck (for halflings), intimidation for Half-Orcs, etc.
Cap HP at level3 totals, or 20 (maybe 30).
No skill/proficiency rolls (classes know what they can do).
PC's do get additional abilities as described in their various texts (Rogues sneak attack, but 1d4, instead of 1d6... or number of d4's instead of d6's at higher levels, perhaps reduced by half with a minimum of one). See below.
Easy/Medium/Hard (DC is 5+, 10+ or 15+). Half the damage dice spell damage (8d6 Fireball becomes 4d6 (round down). Single die spell damage lowered by one die-type Cure Wounds moves from 1d8+WIS bonus to 1D6+(1/2 WIS bonus) on a spell effect range of 15 or above for a low-level character. Spell descriptions are best case scenarios. The effect depends on the effect roll and the level of the character.
Casters can cast as many spells as they want if they have the level to cast them and know them (Clerics are limited to their spells per day?), but they have to roll to hit and roll for effect (a natural 1 is bad and has long or short-term effects). I would rule that some cleric spells could remove some or all of those effects.
Wizards must learn spells through mentor / college. Sorcerors will only learn spells through experimentation or "cool description". Warlocks gain spells through their various patrons which create all kinds of hooks. Bards learn spells from muses/patrons. Druids must attend to the duties of their respective circles. Paladins/Clerics through divine favor.
Ethos not Alignment (scale is -3 to +3 or -6 to +6). If a PC degrades to the lowest level of Ethos, it is irrevocably and monstrous in the hands of the DM. If the PC attains the maximum level of Ethos, it is revered and acknowledged as a Hero or Saint.
There is no initiative: All attacks are simultaneous. Declarations come first and people may not change their minds. Declarations happen at the beginning of the round go around the table from left-to-right rather than in initiative order.
OR
Ranged first, then Casters, then Melee, than Rogues.
Categorize monster/bad guy health in terms of number of hits rather than actual HP (but let the PC's roll damage for fun). Basic goblin/orc 1 hit. Gnoll or Orc Captain 2 hits. Bugbear 3 hits. Troll 3 hits (regain 1 hit / round though). Dragon: 5-6 hits. OR
Limit enemy HP to a reasonable levels that assume the same amount of respective damage on average. (Goblins 1d6, Orc Captain 2d8, Bugbear 3d8, Dragon 40 or so.)
Only one action per round (Perhaps, a move and regular action). There are no bonus actions or reactions. If a PC has multiple attacks, it may use it's damage to hit multiple enemies up to the number of total attacks it has, provided it hits. If a level 5 Fighter hits and rolls for a total of 5 damage, that fighter does 5 damage (or one hit) to two opponents or 10 damage to a single opponent (or 1 hit to up two openents.)
Living/Maintenance Expenses: ((10gp per week X character level) +/- Character Level X (degree of success on WIS check OR +/- WIS bonus)(per week)). This will include room and board, weapon and armor maintenance, supplies and ammo. But not taxes. For taxes assume a flat 30% tax that the tax collector knows about. Some of this could be mitigated by the role-playing situation. If a character is a friend of the local noble and staying at zeir keep, it could be possible some of these things may not come into play.
I am sure I missed some things. I am confident this is a good start.
Which video do you talk about how you do spells for wizards, sorcerers, etc?
th-cam.com/video/RV_RwUFETdI/w-d-xo.html
"Clerics don't have a literary tradition"
Isis, Egyptian Goddess of Wisdom and Magic. Revives her husband from the dead. Her followers; priests and priestesses who were known as healers and were said to have other abilities like dream reading and protection.
*shrugs*
Nathan Morgan and Gandalf is one of the Valár sent by Eru Ilúvatar ; your point?
Nathan Morgan My bad. ( but Maiar are just lesser Valár anyway.) Because he mentioned Aragorn, Conan and Merlin as examples (1:18 if you want to check) and stated that such a concept has not existed before 1977; but the concept of a holy person with high wisdom who heals and brings the undead to peace has existed. (Not saying these people actually had magic powers but in LITERARY tradition, they did.)
I never said that Isis was a DND diety; just that she existed prior to 1977.
This is a fine way to play a lawful good cleric but a terrible way to play, say, a neutral evil cleric of Vecna or a chaotic neutral cleric of The Traveler.
I totally agree. I see clerics as lawful. I can't logically wrap my head around a Lawful Neutral cleric. ALL organized religion is inherently lawful--that's why it's "organized." There are rituals, prayers, holy days, and hierarchies. Without those elements, the religion would fade into obscurity, like Zoroastrianism. Religions, like all organizations, compete for resources. Money is required to build temples and sustain the religious class. Most people in medieval times did not use money, so church building was the purview of monarchs. What monarch would support a chaotic neutral religion? It just strains credulity. Yeah, yeah--this is a world where dragons can fly and magic works, but I apply logic to those things as well.
Where do you get those wonderful mins from
I miss the old “spheres” of cleric spells from ad&d second edition. Made each gods gifts more “unique” to each god and their powers.
I remember a particularly tense session where my lawful good dwarven cleric had a standoff with the thieves in the party because he wouldn't let them break open a sarcophagus to search for loot, disturbing the rest of a great hero.
The BEST RP for such a cleric would be when they found themselves in positions where they had to choose from among possibilities where none of the options is morally acceptable within their faith. Deciding the correct path would be difficult for such a person. It would require prayer and deliberation. If pressed, they would decide quickly out of necessity, but … it would likely give them lingering doubts about their choice and a need to seek absolution in case they chose improperly.
They wouldn't have to be hellfire and brimstone-spewing, but they'd certainly spend their time doing "God's work" (whatever that looks like for their deity).
I do like the notion that those who have committed a grave sin and temporarily disposed of their cleric to do it would not be helped by that deity unless they sought repentance and conversion… The danger of having a cleric in the party is that you're all somewhat bound to the cleric's morality.
I just found this channel recently and liked what I heard...so I subscribed. However, I would NEVER play in a GM’s game that you only reach 6th level in 25 YEARS!! (Real time?)
Full disclosure: averaged out, we only play twice a year. Stay tuned to my XP and Level advancement video. I'm working on it now; it drops in 2-3 weeks.
By the way...YOU need to play more often!! I’d go through withdrawals 😫
So your Clerics are more like Paladins.
I dig it.
in many ways. I see a paladin as a righteous, pious, moral knight.
The Paladin exists because there's not very many literary examples of the Christian Priest-as-Warrior unless you are versed in folklore.
But everyone in America knows about the Knights of The Round Table. Arthur, Lancelot and Galahad are Prototypical Paladins, complete with mechanics for redemption thru questing.
Alright. I got a cleric of life in my campaign who just debated over healing an acolyte, a member of her church in her charge, that was escorting her and the party. His friends were begging her to save him. She was debating burning a spell slot, so I said that he bled out, and hammered her with -3 ethos, (putting her at -1 on a scale of -6 to 6) and saying her god is beyond appalled at her refusal to help. After being admonished by the party, she also rolled a 7 when trying to administer burial rites to the man on the road.
I'm already going to fizzle all spells, and replace the next healing spell she tries to cast as a negative energy spell (heal the undead, harm living) until she prays and asks forgiveness, she's already considering not being able to cast cleric spells and is considering switching classes in game (I'm fine with it, a former cleric becoming an evil warlock is very appropriate IMO) but my question is how to best haunt a PC, specifically a cleric who is actively turning against her god? Never done it before.
Also: Brewed this up last night, after a great session running an adaptation of this campaign: the alter in your campaign is a chaos artifact ala Warhammer40k (the D&D world is a backwater forgotten imperial world) and is corrupting the lands surrounding the keep. Eventually a portal will open via sister rituals performed at the same time beneath the keep chapel and in the caves, where the artifact lies. There are 7 keystones, which open secret doors in the keep and the caves. Right now it just seems they open a secret door in the wall to enter and exit the keep unseen by guards. However, deep in the caves one door opens to a ritual chamber with the artifact. The artifact is an inactive portal to the Gods of Chaos that requires 5 keystones arranged in a star to stabilize the portal, one in the middle to open the portal, and the last to be strategically placed to guide the monsters to their target. That last one will be placed underneath the chapel by the friar, to entice the monsters to attack the keep. (The party already found one) I secretly hope they survive but fail to seal the portal and I get to end the campaign by dropping waves of my warhammer minis on them. How long would a party last against plague marines? I want to know...
Whoah. Epic post there. I'd tell the cleric exactly what the god expects a week of fasting and prayer and to give all her money away to the poor. Then I'd restore the Ethos. Space Marines vs sword-wielding barbarians in steel armor? One round. No more. Everyone would be slaughtered.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Sweet. Sent them the screenshot of your response sans spoilers and told them God hath spoken. Thanks, professor dungeonmaster.
All this really just makes me wanna play a Cleric now, just so I can say "I can do it right!"
I completely disagree. I am a BECMI/1 ed player but I think clerics can be played in many ways. The job of a cleric is to get followers, why would they withhold curing from people that they could convert by showing the awesome power and generosity of their god/immortal. Or what better way to get more followers than to kill off those who believe other than you do if you follow a god of war. Also, why can't they marry? Most religions on earth allow their priest/etc marry. Again, what better way to create more followers than to literally create new followers.
Clerics are a diverse and complex class and this was a very limited take on clerics and so very restrictive. As long as the behavior is consistent with what the god/immortal stands for, it is appropriate and should be encouraged.
Glad you watched the video. I worked very hard on that one and I hope you at least appreciate the B-roll shots. I agree a public healing/curing could create converts. As to marrying--clerics are not priests. They MAY be priests, but they're far more. In my world they're more akin to saints--the 1 in a 1000 individual with a direct connection to their deity. Saints like Mother Teresa, Thomas Becket, and Joan of Arc were 100% fanatically devoted to a greater cause and were willing to sacrifice everything for that cause. In my experience, that's incompatible with family raising. Keep in mind that characters in my game do not progress to 20th level. They generally die in combat. Clerics just die for a noble purpose. From a game perspective, clerics have to have some restrictions because otherwise they just have unlimited power. Fighters can do whatever they want. Clerics need to follow a code, which is 90% prayer and 10% kicking ass. Thanks for commenting and I hope you watch more Dungeoncraft, even if we disagree.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I appreciate the effort and everything you put into your videos. There is a lot of good advice and interesting content. I agree that clerics can get too strong in later versions which is probably why I am more forgiving on how they are played. As long as they follow the ideals of their god/immortal and the commands of their order, I am good with most else. I do agree there should be more effort put into gaining converts. I just think most players don't like that part so I am lenient on that as well. Thanks again. I spent most of my evening last night just watching your old videos as I just discovered your channel.
Another reason (in the real world) not to kill prisoners as they can be held for ransom!
Sang1957 absolutely.
Awesome content, especially for a guy that likes to run very low magic campaigns
You have come to the right place. Check out the "Reviled Society Supercut." You'll dig it.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1
Will do boss
They have to be the most powerful. Nobody would want to play healbot otherwise.
3:20 because the war cleric extra attack is tied to a very limited resource
AMEN
Where did you get the Cleric mini with the upheld cross? It’s awesome!
Reaper Minis.
It's Jonas Kane available in metal from Reaper. I had to look it up, that paint job makes it look 10 times better than the unpainted photo at Reaper.
@@skull9674 To paint Jonas Kane, start with brown and layer it up to crimson, then to red, just like in the video. That's a very well-sculpted mini that paints itself.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Surprisingly enough I found that the new Contrast Paints from GW work REALLY well. I used that for most of the model and then my metallic were standard Apple Barrel Walmart paint followed by an agrax earth shade wash. Came out pretty nice
@@BluelineBattlesports I'm filming a video about how they work next week!
I gave you your thousandth like for the video. lol
Great advice and thoughts on clerics. Could your alignment system also affect the casting of prayers as well?
Yes. You need at leas ton ethos point to cast a prayer.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Have you ever implemented that the higher the number of points a cleric has the better chance that the prayer will be answered?
@@shinmalestat9272 Yes. "Saintly" gives you +2 to all rolls.
Remember. The wise words of the paladin from journey quest. "killing equals honour..." "oh im far to brave to spare the women and children"
Thanks for another great video. One question: with your rules for no initiative and speeding up combat, how/when do you make these extra rolls? If, during a combat round, each player rolls both a d20 as well as their damage dice, would the cleric and mu also include a second d20 for degree of success as well?
Spells are rolled separately because they effects could be more massive....or deadly....or deadly massive.
I think you've got a pretty strong bias towards a western/Judeo-Christian cleric. Dnd has a lot of gods whose followers wouldn't necessarily behave the way you're describing.
Thematically and conceptually, I prefer Paladins to Clerics. Mechanically, I find Clerics preferable in some ways (power and versatility) and frustrating in others (I feel clerics using the same spells/day mechanics as wizards blurs the distinction between magic and miracles in a way I find uncomfortable as a man of serious faith in real life). I also feel that in all editions but _especially_ in 4th and 5th, the two classes are so redundant with each other they hardly seem like they're justified in even being separate classes at all (same with Fighter vs. Barbarian).
My ideal solution would be to allow arcane spellcasters like wizards and sorcerers to learn healing spells, exactly as bards do, and find a different system of limitations for the Fist of Divine Retribution that shows both the fearsome power of the Heavens and that it is _that power_ that is the arm while the Paladin/Cleric is the hammer, not the other way around. I haven't yet found a good way to present this in mechanical terms, but "Fall from grace and lose access to all your character's special features, becoming temporarily nothing more than a mediocre Fighter" is paramount to this endeavor.
Seeing the way you handle magic in general here feels about right for that to me - no limits on how often you can cast, just the player asks for a miracle, dungeon master decides on the difficulty of the roll, asks the player to roll, then describes the results. "I wish to strike fear into these fearless skeleton minions!" might just mean "roll anything but a 1" while "Raise this person from the dead in full health" might demand a 1% chance on percentage dice. Game Master might arbitrarily grant a completely different effect than the one asked for, or be more lenient about granting _something_ beneficial if the player is _less_ specific about the miracle his cleric is praying for.
Meanwhile, arcane mages would use what I consider a more traditional system of spells - not spells per day as usual for D&D, but more like a Magic Points meter in most videogames. (My introduction to the role-playing genre was Dragon Warrior, and that informs a lot of my other choices and biases.)
I go back and forth about wanting to represent verifiable miracles and divine powers at all in my setting or make a more secular setting full of arcane casters who have the same kinds of theological discussions and disagreements we have in the real world. But for me it's basically all or nothing: Either the Crystal Dragon Jesus high fantasy monotheistic church that is very clearly based on medieval Catholicism with a little modernization _or_ fully secular fantasy world where religion isn't touched on much and presumed, if anything, to be more or less a fantasy version of Christendom.
And as far as divine interference from the infernal side/evil clerics. "Cleric of an Evil God? _Oh,_ you mean a Warlock making a pact with a devil!"
I don't believe there _should be_ an exact mirror counterpart of some classes for every alignment. Divine favor requires you to at least be making a good faith attempt at being Good, getting the powers of a warlock requires you to sell your soul to a fiend or make an inconvenient but less morally reprehensible deal with some arch fey. And gauging good faith from the player? That's the purview of a living, breathing Dungeon Master.
I changed the name from "cleric" to "priest." My players MUST make a Priest of a GOD (I list the Gods in my campaigns for them to pick from). That god has restrictions on Weapons, Armor, Spell, and ACTIVITIES! I also use Prohibitions based on the Deity in question's "worldview." I used Runequest's Cults as my inspiration for D&D Clerics/Priests.
I too use a Skill Check for miracles too but the priest adds or subtracts their PIETY SCORE to their DC. Piety is gained or lost through the Priest's own actions (including daily worship of the deity) and I score it from -10 to +10 much like the Professor's "corruption points."
I once played a cleric named Father Glaston Ravenhurst. He was a grave domain cleric, and relentlessly purged undead. He was a fanatic, and wouldn’t think twice about charging the gates of hell for his god. He always accepted surrender, unless the captive was undead, demonic, or otherwise an unholy abomination. Then he purged them and said a prayer for their soul. He would be nonstop quoting the Bible, every session. He was fun.
ONCE UPON A TIME, A LONG TIME AGO.......
1.) Had some new players to our local game shop. They were a long for the ride in a game that the house was running. The DM says," Now will be a good time for the clerics to start praying." The new players asked, why are two of your group are talking like con men, and that guy over there sounds like he is picking a fight ?
Here is the Run Down:
a.) Brother Brown Nose," the A$$ Kisser." making a diplomacy skill check with a +2bonus from Bluff. His church, uh, well, he is just an as$ kisser.
b.) Irish cleric of Lies: making a Bluff check with a +2bonus from diplomacy, street con artist kissing as$ and lying the whole time.
c.) barbarian war cleric : Intimidation skill check, his god only respects shows of strength .
I reject the idea of divine magic as something separate from arcane magic. I suspect this imagined divide arose among D&Ders during the Satanic Panic: “No, Ma! My character’s a priest, ma, a good guy; his spells come straight from his god!” Anyway, the divine magic idea logically ropes us into the all-clerics-are-zealots trope, and I find that unnecessary. My campaign tends to be “low-fantasy” where magic exists but remains complicated and mysterious. The divine magic model makes clerics incorruptible, because their gods are unquestionably involved all the time. A world of incorruptible clergy sounds extremely “high-fantasy” to me.
I think a Life cleric who would value clemency and peace would come from a big empire that has to have other nations under it in a state of subjugation. Like Rome and its provinces. The Romans literally had "Clemency" Pax Orbus Terarum "Peace on Earth" and Spas "Hope" on their coins.