Who doesn't but how is the issue. I'd suggest a sort of residency as a public defender for new lawyers, like how a doctor does residency. Then kill tax all abatements so counties aren't robbing Peter to pay Paul.
All jurisdictions should be required to pay Public Defenders the same as they pay Prosecutors, including offices, staff, and investigators. We cannot claim to have a fair and impartial judicial system where the state pays to prosecute you but not to defend you.
Budgets should be the same! The legal system has evolved into a big shakedown. Judges retirements are based in some jurisdictions on many factors including how much money the court brings in.
@@stupidburp Absolutely! We, as a society, are supposed to want to be sure that the accused is either actually guilty, or exonerated. We should never be putting our fingers on the scale on either side.
It’s not anywhere near infinite. That’s how plea deals were born. If even half the accused demanded the speedy trial they’re entitled, the system would grind to a halt.
@@jrstf the puppet masters are trying hard to keep Trump away from a second term. We’ll see how the publicity and stuff works out. It should be incredibly obvious to anyone with half a brain, on either side of the aisle, what’s going on there.
Many offices throughout the country consider it a "win" if their client does not receive the maximum sentence. These PD's are overworked and have too many clients. It's not their faults. It's the county, city and taxpayer's faults because they don't fund these offices which will attract more attorneys or enough attorneys. I once asked a PD colleague how many cases he had and he responded over 300. I am going crazy with 50. I can't imagine the lack of attention to each client. Imagine if he took the call of each client for 1 minute a day. That would be 5 hours of phone calls a day AFTER HE IS DONE WITH COURT. And we all know 1 minute with each client is woefully insufficient. Compare the budget of the PD's office with local prosecutors and the PD's is woefully underfunded in comparison. But guess what? PEOPLE DON'T CARE. THEY ASSUME EVERYONE WHO IS ARRESTED IS GUILTY. NO WAY THEY AGREE TO PROVIDE A PD'S OFFICE WITH MORE MONEY TO DEFEND THEIR GUILTY CLIENTS.
@@louiehernandez4741 You cannot blame the TAXPAYERS for the failures of the state. The state exists to utilize taxes in the most efficient manner. That would be the same as blaming the donors of a non-profit for the misuse of funds.
I had a troubled time in my twenties, and I had more than my share of Public Defenders. I found that if I wanted the best defense, and also I was going to use a Public Defender, I would have to research my own case, look up the laws, and penalties, and then consult with my PD the day of court, to make my decisions based on my own insufficient research and the PD's advice. At best, it gave a slightly deeper understanding of why I was going with the advice of my PD, or not. @@louiehernandez4741
I'd like to see when the cuffs go on a $10K bond is set & if the charges are dropped or aquited then the defendant should receive that money for the BURDEN on the person. This would stop bad arrests cuz officers that keep having $10K over & over paid to defendents will be shown the door quickly. So this helps the public & gets rid of shitty cops.
Imagine a government that collects more and more taxes every year, yet never has enough money to go around for things like a speedy trial. Just imagine all the people sitting in that jail that have lost their jobs and homes.
Just imagine how much better things would be if EVERYONE paid their fair share of taxes. (Most corporations pay nothing). Musk pays nothing…etc. instead of blaming a system starved for resources..look at why and where those resources went….nearly $8 billion in tax cuts for the Uber wealthy
@@josephahner3031theres plenty. They send it to places and companies that usually end up paying them or has already paid them millions in campaign donations. They get jobs at big compaines after they finish with office. Its absolutely corrupt. 2 trillion was missing right before 9/11. I think the day before of a couple days before. They announced they had no idea where 2 trillion went. Still dont know. Well they do they arent gonna tell us. Almost 200 billion to ukraine. There is plenty. They choose to not help americans. Its not in their bank accounts interest to help us.
Well how much does it cost to illegally keep 2,000 people in jail? And how much does it cost to imprison the folks who plead because they couldn't get a lawyer?
It is in the state's interest to not give you a lawyer. "You can sit in jail for months until we get around to providing a lawyer, or you plead out and go home. No hurry for us."
Having seen a few trials play out, I cannot help but be dismayed by how often our freedom depends on the competency of the judge, the prosecutor, and the defense attorney, each making mistakes (both big an small, sometimes in law, sometimes in strategy) in the process of a trial! It makes me wonder if there isn't some better way to ascertain guilt or innocence of an individual.
Jerking people around with time delays which add financial and other stress for the defendant is a standard tactic employed by law enforcement and justice officials to cover their own corrupt behaviour. You must know that's true Steve
steve is incredibly naive at times, but anyone who says something against the govt is labeled a crazy conspiracy theorist so maybe hes just keeping his mouth shut
I love how they say they can't afford it but they can afford the prosecutors office. I think that they should have to spend as much on the court appointed lawyer as they do on the prosecution. The way it is now in a lot of places as Steve said a court appointed lawyer may be little better then no lawyer.
Exactly. If you've got the budget for a prosecuting attorney you need to have the budget for a defense attorney if one is needed. If I was in the Oregon State legislature the first thing I would do is take all of the asset forfeit your money that police seize and use it to pay for attorneys for defendants.
All Court officers involved in a single instance of this should be literally pilloried on the courthouse lawn, followed by a thorough tar and feathering before being run out of town on a fence rail. Apparently we couldn't keep the republic.
Something similar to this was a big problem during the pandemic. Courts were shut down. If you were arrested you languished in jail for quite some time. There was literally nothing you could do about it (courts closed). I'm still amazed (and a bit worried) how easy it was for government to stomp on everyone's rights.
I'm still amazed (and a bit worried) about how immediately everyone jumps to the assumption that there's some kind of conspiracy intending to hurt people and not just a flawed system manned by flawed people.
and people diligently worked through clearing queues once systems were put in place to keep the most people safe as possible, which turns out was very hard. nobody went out of their way to stomp on rights.
Imagine if "How to represent yourself in court" would be a required class instead of the crap these school kids are having crammed down their throats these days
they won't do that because they don't want people who can actually take care of themselves. they want people who are easy to kick down and won't fight back. that's why they don't teach taxes either.
There isn't a person on the planet that would be qualified to teach that class. The judges are used to working with people they know and get very angry if they have to deal with you and will lash out and give you punishments for causing them an inconvenience. The profession of law has been corrupt since the founding of the nation, there were moves being made to get rid of lawyers and the lawyers lobbied and blackmailed that movement away.
I live in Oregon and this situation is troubling at best. I've checked jail rosters I've seen ppl in jail for simple failure to appear warrants and have been in jail for at least a year. Probably cuz of the public defender crisis
And what does this tell you? It tells you that even if you have to be homeless while working a fulltime job, DON'T be poor in America... "It's money that matters, hear what I say? It's money that matters, in the USA..." (Randy Newman)
@@gretchenk.2516 right so according to what your saying they should sit there it's their problem when they're eligible for public defender u ever heard 6th amendment
@@gretchenk.2516 if it impedes their other matters it's they're own ineffectiveness and they don't need to practice or not contract to be a PD and no Im not angry.
And yet I've seen violent people get out of jail in a couple weeks or even just a single day because of overcrowding. Needless to say, we've got some serious problems in the legal arena.
@billythekid9061 check out the guy in Albany Georgia that's been sitting in jail for 10 years waiting for an attorney. Now he has one and they postponed the case because the witness LIED! Our DA has over 10,000 cases that he's behind.
"You have the right to an attorney, if you can't afford one, one will be appointed to you" I learned this in social studies in grade school, how did the entire Oregon government not know this cornerstone of our justice sytem?
Come on brother. They can't even pump their own gas and aren't allow to pump their own gas FOR DECADES. What makes ya think they will know about what you said? Lol
There is a reason that the 6th amendment specifies that the defendant gets to have the council of *their* choice, because the court is prosecuting the case, which means that a public defender, by default, must favor prosecution, given who they work for: the court.
The guy sitting in jail for 10 years in Albany georgia got a probono attorney finally. The judge wouldn't dismiss the case even though the other defendants have already been to court and been found not guilty. Now they've postponed the case because the witness admitted THEY LIED! The DA said he will have other witnesses. However, he will have to find them. Our DA is behind over 10,000 cases!! You covered this when the news finally picked it up in Atlanta and brought it to light. There are many more people sitting and waiting for years as well.
I got a ticket for expired plates once in my very small town. I submitted my motion to dismiss. Judge overruled it and smuggly said now what. I said set it for trail. He looked at the prosecutor and named the date for trial. again, he was smug about it. I received a letter a week later dismissing my ticket and said he was referring it to county. I never heard anything else about it. It wasn't worth their time. I had a public defender once over a fence with a neighbor. The guy was out of his element. He was timid. Wanted to plea from go. I did just to get it over with. If I would have been able to get a better lawyer, I could have beat it. It just wasn't in the cards at that time. The system is extremely broken and mishandled. Something needs to happen.
@@battleaxefabandmachine The constitution has been interpreted such that you do not have a right to a trial by jury for infractions or certain other petty offenses. Some states may provide that right but the constitution does not.
A lot of it is that, honestly, though also the type of laws as well. Excessive levels of complicated nuances and nitpicking over minor things that shouldn't even be an issue. A lot of laws at this point exist where the purpose of the law isn't even to actually convict anyone even, they're really just there to intentionally cause a mess of the system so that the charge itself is the punishment. You have definitely, 100% done something illegal. You don't know what it is, but that's no excuse. Sure, that law has never actually ever been brought to court, no one has ever been convicted under it, but if someone is annoyed enough at you, they can find an excuse to charge you with something. Victimless crimes, crimes which hinge 100% solely on the opinion of the supposed victim as to whether it's a crime at all, everything from the war on drugs to making gun laws intentionally obtuse so that it's not actually clear whether it's illegal or not to own anything and they can be changed at any moment without warning you other than for the police suddenly showing up to your door one day... like you can argue for or against your opinions on what the law should cover, but it really should be clearly stated. People SHOULD know whether they're doing something wrong or not, and they shouldn't have to guess, and the laws shouldn't be explicitly and intentionally designed to be a trap to catch people unawares. The law, itself, is not supposed to be a punishment before you even get to the verdict. Unfortunately, this means a lot of important cases are getting bogged down because of trivial cases clogging up the system. It's not just a matter of "how much justice can you afford?" for the defendants, but also for the prosecution now. What happens when they arrest someone, can't get a public defender because it's obviously going to be a messy case, and they're forced to release someone who blatantly should not be released, and they go out and kill someone while they're free? What can they do except start choosing to prune what they're enforcing down further and further until you wind up with situations like San Francisco where some stores are literally being robbed over 100 times a day because they just can't keep up with it and don't really want to because it's a low priority compared to the other problems they have? Once you wind up in that situation, the law as a concept starts falling apart in general, and it snowballs pretty fast. Someone who could've gotten help if it was caught early on instead gets themselves into deeper and deeper trouble until what could have stopped at a robbery becomes a murder case instead. I don't think anyone actually is happy with that outcome, other than those who don't understand anything that's going on. It just kinda sucks for everyone. Hopefully there can be some reform of the system in general, but it's going to take some heavy-handed fixes for some areas probably.
They can't? I can think of multiple persons arrested over two years ago who have not even been arraigned. The few that had the means to hire a lawyer were prevented from taking to them in person. Communication intercepted. Medical care denied. No one seems to discuss that.
It took me a while to realize why this is such a bad thing. They are being held indefinitely because they can't even have a bail hearing without an attorney present, right?
Exactly. And if the crime was something like petty theft (ticketed and released) and then you did not show up for your court date a bench warrant goes out. Then you get arrested and tossed in jail. And the court wont trust you ROR cause you didnt make your first court date.
It depends on the state and what you call a bail hearing. At the initial arraignment in Texas after an arrest, there are no lawyers. The judge reads the accused his rights, gives a copy of the complaint and sets bail. The accused can ask for a court appointed attorney and contest the amount of bail in a reduction hearing later.
The head of the defense attorney system in Oregon recently stated the state was paying a fixed amount per case based on the crime rather than by the hour resulting in attorneys pushing plea deals rather than court. Discussions are being held on per hour pay. BTW, Oregon has the money, they just wont budget it for defense attorneys.
@@BlackJesus8463 You could also see the case of Marvin Guy in Texas. He has been held since 2014 without trial, while the state of Texas tried to find grounds to execute him for defending himself against armed home invaders who kicked in his door serving a no-knock drug warrant. No drugs were found, but one of the folks breaking into his house with weapons in the middle of the night died. Rather than put him on trial, they just set an impossible bond and locked him up indefinitely.
Good for the judge. Thank you Steve for covering this. It is bad everywhere. There is no attorney shortage - they are all in family court getting fees out of family houses !
Wisconsin is terrible for this as well. I was able to hire a private attorney for 2 felony charges so things ran smooth for me. BUT because my entire court case was done via Zoom I was able to see other people's calendar calls before the court. It was very common to hear incarcerated individuals being told that the court had contacted over 100 attorneys and no one had accepted their case yet. The most I ever heard was over 250 attorneys had been contacted and no one took the case yet. I assure you many of these incarcerated individuals had been there well more than 10 days. It's disgusting how American courts treat their citizens like slaves.
Perhaps they should require that licensed attorneys handle one "court appointed" case per year (or month) as part of their continuing education requirement?
They would not be able to be licensed because of their convictions. Same thing with people who are trained as firefighters while in prison. If you have been convicted of a crime, your debt to society is rarely ever considered paid.
In most such cases, I wouldn't trust the guy to represent me, for reasons that should be obvious. Won't disagree that there are certain lawyers, and judges, practicing who have not been in prison . . . yet. OK, lest someone think I'm jaundiced against lawyers, I report that I've been well served by several, including a PD (whom I had to hire, but quite reasonably) and a guy who was stationed at the courthouse by either the auto club or legal aid, can't remember, but ages ago, similarly paid by me, but quite affordably. Here's good advice: if you can, through your church, your employer, your insurance agent, or via friends, get contact info for a good lawyer who either can help you out of a jam or refer you to someone who can. Do this before you ever need one. Some employers offer a "benefit" (usually self funded) which amounts to lawyer insurance. The point is to have someone to call. Your ability to deal with nearly any accusation (and hoping that never befalls you) is much better if you're back in your home.
The Public Defenders office should have a budget matching the Prosecutors office. Then follow that up with the Prosecutors need to alternate between Prosecution and Public Defending cases so they don't forget you're innocent until proven guilty.
@@MistahHeffo I agree on the budgeting. But with all due respect, there is no f-ing way i trust my legal defense to someone who can be fired by the DA.
In NC they are charging for court appointed attorneys via the back door: if you get a state refund, they take the money. They don't feel so confident about this plan to just outright charge people. I guess they figure if you really want to you can sue them. I told the people I know to just change their withholding such that they never get a refund!
Georgia - same issue. In ~2012, five people were arrested for murder. By 2016, lawyers found for each. Judge then ruled YES -- separate trials for each. - 2 cases were dismissed ~2016, 1 was acquitted at jury trial ~2017, 1 was acquitted at jury trial ~2023, the last defendant, now 28/29 years old spoke with his mother daily. Mom sent her imprisoned son a card every single day as a way to let him know he was not forgotten. His previous court appointed lawyer resigned in 2021/2022 - health reasons. Judge OK'd. Defendant wrote letters to judge, prosecutor, sheriff begging for a new lawyer - all letters were ignored ("misfiled" - still using paper files in manila folders in 2023!!). Incredibly, he got the attention of a new young lawyer in the jail on other business who was leery and astonished at his story. The lawyer made inquiries with the judge, court, sheriff, etc... who each first blamed "COVID", then when no-go on COVID, blamed each other after acknowledging that YES, a 28/29 year old male has been in jail for over 10 years "waiting for his "day in court"" and is in fact currently not being represented by a lawyer as there is no money in the budget to cover the cost. Beyond incredible as I recently heard on the news that some attorneys in the US are now charging over $1,000/hour. In my opinion, his case should be dismissed WITH PREJUDICE.
Steve, I am going to send you a story about my son’s case. I hope you’ll read it. It really was TV material. It took almost 5 years, 4 attorneys and 2 trials to get a not guilty verdict. Had they not destroyed the transcript to the 2nd trial the week after the trial ended, I feel that my son had a good case to sue for malicious prosecution but without the transcript, I couldn’t find an attorney to take the case.
I saw something a few weeks ago where a court appointed an attorney to an Indigent guy and after the trial they charged the guy the cost of the attorney
They should make it easier for self defense or non-certified attorney representation if situation is so bad. It is too easy to charge and too hard to defend in the US court system.
Arrest a bunch of attorneys and put them in jail and let them defend those people as part of a work release program... I wouldn't be surprised if they actually try it ..
@johndorian4078 no it's not. Lawyers cost 5000 dollars for retainer UP FRONT. Another 5000 dollars PER TRIAL DAY. Also up front, plus 500-750 dollars an hour for anything in-between. Say your trial lasts 4 days.....that's 20 grand alone. So no, 10000 a year is NOT enough to afford justice.
I live in Oregon, and in Washington County. This is indeed a national embarrassment and I hope this situation will be an agent for change in our failing system.
Maybe it should be considered a public service, like being in the military, if you choose to be a Public Defender then the education for your law degree is free of charge.
@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket Weekly wouldn't work, since cases can be extremely long and overlap. It takes the separate hearings on their own can result in months, years of trial work. There's also multiple cases with their own schedules going in at the same time. It would just be unfeasible to mix schedules regularly and work efficiently due to that.
I have always wondered how much attorneys that take Public defender work get paid for those cases, i have always suspected it was considerable amount less than what they would charge if they were hired by a private client. I know some major cities often have Public defender offices that handle such cases but i suspect they are often badly over worked. On the quality of Court appointed lawyers/Public Defenders i know of one who is likely retired by now that was so infamous for getting those he was assigned to take plea bargains ( even if there was evidence showing they weren't guilty ) so he could get with as little work as possible he got stuck with being called Make a deal and his name which rhymed with deal. I know of people who found themselves in legal trouble found a way to hire a lawyer if they were told they were being given him as their public defender.
@@joshuagibson2520more often than not they work together for the best outcome, I was in the gallery for some bail hearings and traffic citations and there was one where the defender and states attorney talked with the judge about a failure to appear, because it was a "pre trial hearing" they all agreed there was no reason to file/grant an extension or warrant and instead set the court date with the understanding that the individual would be sent the summons for the case and they would further discuss a continuation or warrant at the trial date.
I learned long ago that in court, it's you vs. everyone else in the room, including your so-called attorney. Your lawyer is not on your side. Their loyalty is with their co-workers.
@@Dirk_the_Daring: Actually, with Public PRETENDERS, it's even worse than that. Having been appointed by the Court to "defend" a client, their "loyalty" (if, indeed they can be said to have ANY), is to whoever (e.g. the Court), writes their paycheck, whether or not the judge is an attorney!
I had buddy in Humboldt who was arrested there on a traffic stop for an Oregon warrant, held for two days and then stuck on a slow moving transport. Took him almost ten days to get to Roseburg and another week of unlawful interrogations, only to get let out, no evidence at all. They blamed him for the disappearance of a trip sensor they left on some weed spot they were surveying. They made the whole thing up. Fancy that. I guess he was outspoken regarding the authoritarian assholes in the sherrifs department.
Years ago I had some trouble stemming from driving on suspended and a probation violation in Florida. This zealous prosecutor wanted me to do 1yr and 1day in prison. I hired a guy fresh out of law school for $1500 and he was thirsty! He filed countless motions and basically wore the prosecutor down.
Check out Minnesota's state public defender system. For decades, we have been having our passion and ethical obligations leveraged against our low wages. Well, enough was enough in 2023. After authorizing a strike in 2021, Teamsters Local 320 support staff and attorney found legislators who agreed with our issues, and fought for us. Next week, attorneys and support staff will be receiving wages on par with prosecutors. We have achieved parity. It wasn't easy. It took time. It was the right thing to do, and the state legislature agreed...
My brother was held for months without an attorney in Washington County, Oregon. Critical hearings were held, including release hearings without him being represented.
When I was in school I used to go to the court and watch cases. There was an attorney there who literally sent there three days a week in the court hearings it would pick up 5 to 10 cases each time appointed counsel. From my understanding each one paid $350
GIDEON v. WAINWRIGHT; On that note Mr. Lehto, I am very proud that my early first years in PRE LAW School ( aka Paralegal degree) were with Professor J. MICHAEL SHEA, JD, Esq. ( Florida ) who brought his First case to the Florida State Supreme Court, and then up to the US SUPREME COURT where his case was very reason we have Public Defenders Office in all states. He was my Professor and Mentor. God Bless him! { BTW that Gentleman has TWO sets of Turkey Feathers and working on his 3rd. ;-) }
Hey Steve, Excellent topic and show. I applaude the Judge in this matter and think it should be a Federal Law. Basically if you live in a Red state like Texas or Florida or all the rest it's the same story. I was born and raised in Texas and I have lived in Florida and Massachusetts. I got arrested 25 years ago on Cape Cod for possession of a1/4 ounce of Marijuana. I was taken to the jail and booked then apologized to by the Sargent. He said that the Bondsman was down Cape and would be at least 30 minutes away. To which I asked (confused) I didn't get to call one yet. He explained that in Massachusetts the Bondsman works for the county. He arrived and I asked how much it would cost. He replied nothing. I was even more confused. I got a ride home in a squad car with a court date and an attorney to call the next day. She was a very good young private attorney and got me off with probation and adjudication so no record. Fast forward 15 years to Putnam County Florida and again arrested for the same thing. I spent 3 months in jail waiting for an attorney then got attacked and nearly killed by a insane 19 year old gangster loosing 6 teeth a fractured skull and multiple injuries. Turns out my attorney also represented him too. Which caused another 3 month delay in jail waiting for court and didn't meet my new attorney until court. I ended up with the same outcome as Massachusetts. Except for all the hell I went through. So yes I applaude the Judge. Thanks 😮
I'll make it simpler than that Steve, they're in jail because they're probably being charged rent while they're in jail there's no monetary incentive for them to actually appoint an attorney for them which brings up the next argument that you can't charge them for them being in jail unless you can show that their rights are actually being applied. By the same token, if the judge or the police officer or the prosecutor in your case has a retirement plan that includes that jail system, that constitutes a conflict of interest?
This could also bring up the question if there are just to many laws!!!! Be interesting what crimes these folks have committed. From what seen in Oregon one can riot, pillage, shoplift, etc and nothing is done!!!
Gotta pay the nice officers. Dont worry about the innocent people locked up or those guilty of not bending over for cops. Thanks for all you do. Very educational very fair. I really wish you were a judge
Oh no, those people have already been found guilty in the court of public opinion. Their rights are no more. The fact that they have been in jail for multiple years, some without even being charged, is immaterial. It's not a violation of their rights because the accusation has stripped them of any rights they may have had.
Since this was a Federal judge, I wonder if this will be used as precedent for the January 6 defendants still held without trial, arraignment, or in some cases, even charges. Looks like a basis of lawsuits.
I used to have a job that I performed inside of a California superior court, and it was the kind of job where police, prosecutors, and public defenders considered me to be more or less a piece of furniture owned by the court, so I heard some stuff. At least in that court, I would rather represent myself while wearing a clown suit and speaking Klingon than have any public defender except for the one that all of the prosecutors hated. It was openly discussed that this one PD “doesn’t get how it works” and would go to the mat for every client no matter how guilty, instead of steering most into plea bargains and saving his chit for the ones where there was a real problem with the arrest. As far as I’m concerned, there should be no such thing as a public defender- there should be state or federal office that is forbidden to have any communication whatsoever with prosecutors police or judges that will receive and pay the invoice of ANY QUALIFIED LAWYER YOU CAN GET regardless of price, no questions asked.
There should be public defenders in every jurisdiction paid for by tax payers. This department should be funded as well as the prosecutor's office and at the same rates. So whatever a prosecutor makes a public defender makes the same. Also, as a minimum, if the prosecutor's office has 100 people (lawyers, paralegals, and investigators) the public defenders office should have at least 75% of that for a start.
@@ajkendro3413 That is better than what we have for sure, but I think conflict of interest is completely inevitable in any system where the state is sitting at both tables, and on the witness stand, and on the bench, and controls the jury room. You can divide them up anyway you like, but you can’t make the people stop knowing that they all are employed by the same system. If any other entity besides the government wanted to be at both the plaintiff and defendant tables, the courts would tell them to get out because you can’t oppose yourself- only the government is allowed to perform such a farce.
Brit here. Always interesting to listen to Steve. He tells it how it is in the America legal world in a language that even the poorly educated can understand. I had,wrongly,always assumed that states in America had public defenders offices. Contracting out public defender work had not occurred to me. However, it is a logical way to manage a variable number of defendants, but of course the money has to be available to pay the attorneys. If l had sweated at law school for n years and racked up $000 of student loans, l would expect an above average pay check. I like the idea of persons being found guilty having to repay the state for the attorney fees and other court costs.
So what are you doing to advocate on behalf of these people? Just making your statement here? If you don’t advocate for them who will? Are you calling the courthouse? The DA? The press? The institute for Justice? Are you donating to the IJ? Or are you satisfied with doing nothing, not taking it seriously until it’s too late and happens to you or a loved one? The individual has tremendous power; if only they’d exercise it!
of coarse being a michigan lawyer you are 100 percent correct. in michigan the peoples probation order has court cost and attorney fees on their order.
There’s not an attorney shortage in this case. It’s just that public defense attorneys don’t want to take those cases in that department bc it’s meager cases that aren’t worth taking up for what they’re being paid. Logic would be = defense attorney only paid 12,00 for a few defendants that’s there for having a pipe and some meth. Or take the armed robbery case and get paid $94,000 and make him plead out.. East answer
The state will pay for attorneys if you are indigent, if you aren't you still get a public defender, but the state will tack their fees onto any court costs they hit you with. Unless of course you wind up beating the charges, then the state pays. Different states do it differently but at least that's Oregon.
@@Kill3rwasp: They (Public PRETENDERS), still work in one courtroom (and,at least in their perception), for that judge, on that case. They're not at all likely to "bite the hand that feeds them", to raise any actual defense for the "client".
I may have told you before a judge gave me the right to act as a power of attorney; to ask questions and got my defendant a not guilty and released of the charges against him in Germany court system; just because my hobby was and is law; for protection of myself and others, when I was a Sargant in the army of the USA , and the judge had the prosecutor go into his office after the case was decided for a talking to the prosecutor for malfeasance charging the wrong person he chose not the victim of the crime, with the crime indictment ! and I did not ask to have that put on myself power of attorney; but judge asked both the prosecutor and defense ok with them yes was their answer as well as the defendant !...
Lawyers should be REQUIRED by EVERY state bar to contribute no less than 40 Hrs a year to public defense and it should be directed to "less than median" earners. It should be required to maintain BAR membership and it should be reported each year to The Bar by the individual attorney.
From what part of the Constitution would that POWER to COMPEL SLAVERY derive? Yeah, what you're proposing is INDENTURED SERVITUDE. We did away with that a could hundred years back. Some guy named Abe LIncoln?
@@notmyname3883 first off, Abe Lincoln was a tyrant. Not because of slavery but because of what he did to the press and what he did to Baltimore and Maryland. Second, the Bar Association is NOTHING MORE THAN A CLUB AND ABSOLUTELY CAN MAKE THAT RULE and there is nothing any lawyer can do about it. God forbid someone do the right thing within the justice system. Shhesh
@@notmyname3883 It's already done in some high schools where they force the students to do 40 hours of community service, 10 hours per year and the courts have seen nothing wrong with it.
@@notmyname3883 This is specifically why I was suggesting Prosecutors. There's lots of areas of law, several of which don't go anywhere near a courtroom.
I thought in the Meranda rights they had something like "If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you.", so in Detroit, its only free if you are found not guilty?
Can you imagine what it would be like in areas that run privatized detention centers? If you had halfway decent representation you would be out in a day or two. In the case where you sit in a detention center paid daily by the amount in jail through state or federal funds you could be there much longer especially with not enough lawyers. They wouldn't need bogus convictions. Believe me the funds would always be there for that company.
You're assuming only private institutions are ever corrupt. When our current Vice President was an attorney for California, she was illegally denying prisoners release so that they could be used for cheap labor fighting wildfires. That wasn't a private prison bribing anyone.
The system in Canada is very different. Every law firm that does litigation takes on a certain number of ‘court appointed’ hours, based on their billable hours. That way even the big fancy law firms take on court appointed cases, get paid a base rate for those hours. Generally you get lawyers get the cases, but they’re supported by the rest of the firm. Of course, those forms don’t want to lose cases, so they put the effort in, no matter who (or how much) they get paid. I’m not in the system, so I don’t know how well it works, but it’s a very different way to approach it.
I'm friends with the Indiana Public Defender Comission Chairperson. Great guy, and he works hard to make sure there is good funding for service here. Maybe you should reach out to him, I'm sure he would consider discussing his work and the oddity of being an appointed Libertarian under 3 Republican governors now.
It's true. She was NOT lying to you. When I was in jail, my public defender called into our pod, asking to talk to one guy, then another guy, then finally me.
As long as policing for revenue is the system, These numbers nationwide will only get worse. As long as speedy trial isn't defined. People will spend way to long with high bail. Most innocent people will plead guilty to get out...
Lawyers should be forced under tax code to be public defenders. With so many lawyers in the country acting as lampreys, its the least they could do to make the system more efficient.
I support the constitution and the requirement for a competent attorney and a speedy trial. Justice delayed is justice denied!
They arrest you, then send their buddies to rob you... and that's just the beginning. Then they take your phone home with them, and start to dig in.
Competent?
Who doesn't but how is the issue. I'd suggest a sort of residency as a public defender for new lawyers, like how a doctor does residency. Then kill tax all abatements so counties aren't robbing Peter to pay Paul.
You should look up the man that waited 10 years just to go to court and he never waived his rights to a speedy trial.
@@cherrelleg8276 State of Alabama v. Kharon Torchec Davis
All jurisdictions should be required to pay Public Defenders the same as they pay Prosecutors, including offices, staff, and investigators. We cannot claim to have a fair and impartial judicial system where the state pays to prosecute you but not to defend you.
I think the defense should be granted the same budget the prosecution gets.
Budgets should be the same! The legal system has evolved into a big shakedown. Judges retirements are based in some jurisdictions on many factors including how much money the court brings in.
The caseloads should also be required to be similar in size. Prosecutors with just a few cases and public defenders with thousands is common.
@@stupidburp Absolutely! We, as a society, are supposed to want to be sure that the accused is either actually guilty, or exonerated. We should never be putting our fingers on the scale on either side.
*well said*
Funny how the budget for court appointed defense lawyers is very scant, yet the budget for prosecutors seems infinite.
It’s not anywhere near infinite. That’s how plea deals were born. If even half the accused demanded the speedy trial they’re entitled, the system would grind to a halt.
@@EnthalpyAndEntropy - His point is valid, prosecutors of anyone associated with Trump have an infinite budget.
@@jrstf I don't think it's infinite, I think they're just forgoing other responsibilities. Hence all the complaints about how bad the atl is becoming.
@@jrstf the puppet masters are trying hard to keep Trump away from a second term. We’ll see how the publicity and stuff works out. It should be incredibly obvious to anyone with half a brain, on either side of the aisle, what’s going on there.
An assistant state attorney in Pinellas County, Florida may 350 case load!
Here in Oregon we call them public pretenders. They literally coerce you to take whatever plea offer they've already prearranged with the prosecutor.
and not just Oregon . . .
Many offices throughout the country consider it a "win" if their client does not receive the maximum sentence. These PD's are overworked and have too many clients. It's not their faults. It's the county, city and taxpayer's faults because they don't fund these offices which will attract more attorneys or enough attorneys. I once asked a PD colleague how many cases he had and he responded over 300. I am going crazy with 50. I can't imagine the lack of attention to each client. Imagine if he took the call of each client for 1 minute a day. That would be 5 hours of phone calls a day AFTER HE IS DONE WITH COURT. And we all know 1 minute with each client is woefully insufficient. Compare the budget of the PD's office with local prosecutors and the PD's is woefully underfunded in comparison. But guess what? PEOPLE DON'T CARE. THEY ASSUME EVERYONE WHO IS ARRESTED IS GUILTY. NO WAY THEY AGREE TO PROVIDE A PD'S OFFICE WITH MORE MONEY TO DEFEND THEIR GUILTY CLIENTS.
@@louiehernandez4741
You cannot blame the TAXPAYERS for the failures of the state. The state exists to utilize taxes in the most efficient manner.
That would be the same as blaming the donors of a non-profit for the misuse of funds.
I had a troubled time in my twenties, and I had more than my share of Public Defenders. I found that if I wanted the best defense, and also I was going to use a Public Defender, I would have to research my own case, look up the laws, and penalties, and then consult with my PD the day of court, to make my decisions based on my own insufficient research and the PD's advice. At best, it gave a slightly deeper understanding of why I was going with the advice of my PD, or not. @@louiehernandez4741
That happens everywhere.
If the defendant is liable for attorney costs if convicted, the state should pay something if they aren't convicted.
They paid for his lawyer
@@bobthetitanic treble damages
I'd like to see when the cuffs go on a $10K bond is set & if the charges are dropped or aquited then the defendant should receive that money for the BURDEN on the person. This would stop bad arrests cuz officers that keep having $10K over & over paid to defendents will be shown the door quickly. So this helps the public & gets rid of shitty cops.
So if I pay for my own lawyer I'll be reimbursed if I'm not convicted?
@@jrstf I'd be in favor: cost to screw up.
Imagine a government that collects more and more taxes every year, yet never has enough money to go around for things like a speedy trial. Just imagine all the people sitting in that jail that have lost their jobs and homes.
That's the problem with asking the government to do everything for everyone. They end up doing everything half assed and there's never enough.
"speedy trial" is a joke, ask any judge, it never happens !!
Just imagine how much better things would be if EVERYONE paid their fair share of taxes. (Most corporations pay nothing). Musk pays nothing…etc. instead of blaming a system starved for resources..look at why and where those resources went….nearly $8 billion in tax cuts for the Uber wealthy
@@josephahner3031theres plenty. They send it to places and companies that usually end up paying them or has already paid them millions in campaign donations. They get jobs at big compaines after they finish with office. Its absolutely corrupt. 2 trillion was missing right before 9/11. I think the day before of a couple days before. They announced they had no idea where 2 trillion went. Still dont know. Well they do they arent gonna tell us. Almost 200 billion to ukraine. There is plenty. They choose to not help americans. Its not in their bank accounts interest to help us.
Well how much does it cost to illegally keep 2,000 people in jail? And how much does it cost to imprison the folks who plead because they couldn't get a lawyer?
It is in the state's interest to not give you a lawyer. "You can sit in jail for months until we get around to providing a lawyer, or you plead out and go home. No hurry for us."
Got no money? Then ya got no rights - its the American way, after all! (/s)
I hear so many stories of people who got screwed over cause of that. They plead out so they won't lose their jobs
That sounds awfully like the Japanese legal system.
All it costs the state is a few bologna on white bread sandwiches...
@dingusdingus2152 they demand restitution for your stay plus fines and fees. They're making bank.
I have always felt our Rights are only enforceable if we can AFFORD to defend them. Government--as is obvious--has no wish to help the citizenry.
sadly you are proven right every day.
Having seen a few trials play out, I cannot help but be dismayed by how often our freedom depends on the competency of the judge, the prosecutor, and the defense attorney, each making mistakes (both big an small, sometimes in law, sometimes in strategy) in the process of a trial!
It makes me wonder if there isn't some better way to ascertain guilt or innocence of an individual.
Socialism for the 1%.
Pure capitalism for all others.
Jerking people around with time delays which add financial and other stress for the defendant is a standard tactic employed by law enforcement and justice officials to cover their own corrupt behaviour. You must know that's true Steve
It's known as "the process _is_ the punishment."
Steve knows.
And then they make sure to throw the book at you if you do demand a trial as punishment for not accepting a plea deal.
He knows. He's a BAR Association member. He knows all about the Kangaroo Courts.
steve is incredibly naive at times, but anyone who says something against the govt is labeled a crazy conspiracy theorist so maybe hes just keeping his mouth shut
I love how they say they can't afford it but they can afford the prosecutors office. I think that they should have to spend as much on the court appointed lawyer as they do on the prosecution. The way it is now in a lot of places as Steve said a court appointed lawyer may be little better then no lawyer.
Exactly. If you've got the budget for a prosecuting attorney you need to have the budget for a defense attorney if one is needed.
If I was in the Oregon State legislature the first thing I would do is take all of the asset forfeit your money that police seize and use it to pay for attorneys for defendants.
All Court officers involved in a single instance of this should be literally pilloried on the courthouse lawn, followed by a thorough tar and feathering before being run out of town on a fence rail. Apparently we couldn't keep the republic.
They can afford to keep you behind bars also
Excellent point. @@williamprice1844
Something similar to this was a big problem during the pandemic. Courts were shut down. If you were arrested you languished in jail for quite some time. There was literally nothing you could do about it (courts closed). I'm still amazed (and a bit worried) how easy it was for government to stomp on everyone's rights.
Depending on the city. There were plenty of jails that emptied their people. But you are right, that seems to be the norm
I'm still amazed (and a bit worried) about how immediately everyone jumps to the assumption that there's some kind of conspiracy intending to hurt people and not just a flawed system manned by flawed people.
and people diligently worked through clearing queues once systems were put in place to keep the most people safe as possible, which turns out was very hard. nobody went out of their way to stomp on rights.
The solution is simple. A dead cop isn’t capable of putting you in jail.
It's because no one cares about it until it happens to them. The apathy in this country is off the charts.
Imagine if "How to represent yourself in court" would be a required class instead of the crap these school kids are having crammed down their throats these days
they won't do that because they don't want people who can actually take care of themselves.
they want people who are easy to kick down and won't fight back.
that's why they don't teach taxes either.
There isn't a person on the planet that would be qualified to teach that class. The judges are used to working with people they know and get very angry if they have to deal with you and will lash out and give you punishments for causing them an inconvenience. The profession of law has been corrupt since the founding of the nation, there were moves being made to get rid of lawyers and the lawyers lobbied and blackmailed that movement away.
I live in Oregon and this situation is troubling at best. I've checked jail rosters I've seen ppl in jail for simple failure to appear warrants and have been in jail for at least a year. Probably cuz of the public defender crisis
And what does this tell you? It tells you that even if you have to be homeless while working a fulltime job, DON'T be poor in America... "It's money that matters, hear what I say? It's money that matters, in the USA..." (Randy Newman)
@@gretchenk.2516 right so according to what your saying they should sit there it's their problem when they're eligible for public defender u ever heard 6th amendment
@@gretchenk.2516 if it impedes their other matters it's they're own ineffectiveness and they don't need to practice or not contract to be a PD and no Im not angry.
And yet I've seen violent people get out of jail in a couple weeks or even just a single day because of overcrowding.
Needless to say, we've got some serious problems in the legal arena.
@billythekid9061 check out the guy in Albany Georgia that's been sitting in jail for 10 years waiting for an attorney. Now he has one and they postponed the case because the witness LIED! Our DA has over 10,000 cases that he's behind.
"You have the right to an attorney, if you can't afford one, one will be appointed to you" I learned this in social studies in grade school, how did the entire Oregon government not know this cornerstone of our justice sytem?
It happens in WA. It is a 1 page form.
Come on brother. They can't even pump their own gas and aren't allow to pump their own gas FOR DECADES. What makes ya think they will know about what you said? Lol
They know it, they just don't care.
Oh, a lawyer will be appointed to you. Some day after the entire power grid has transitioned to fusion power.
There is a reason that the 6th amendment specifies that the defendant gets to have the council of *their* choice, because the court is prosecuting the case, which means that a public defender, by default, must favor prosecution, given who they work for: the court.
The guy sitting in jail for 10 years in Albany georgia got a probono attorney finally. The judge wouldn't dismiss the case even though the other defendants have already been to court and been found not guilty. Now they've postponed the case because the witness admitted THEY LIED! The DA said he will have other witnesses. However, he will have to find them. Our DA is behind over 10,000 cases!! You covered this when the news finally picked it up in Atlanta and brought it to light. There are many more people sitting and waiting for years as well.
Georgia seems to have a real problem with this.
@@huwhitecavebeast1972:
The biggest problem with Georgia is that when you are there you should set your watch back ≈500 years!!!!
Sherman needs to make a return visit. Maybe he can give Memphis a shout-out on the way.
How does this reconcile with the 6th amendment being a right to a speedy and public trial?
Many of these people are held for longer waiting for an attorney than the jail sentence would be if they were CONVICTED!
I got a ticket for expired plates once in my very small town. I submitted my motion to dismiss. Judge overruled it and smuggly said now what. I said set it for trail. He looked at the prosecutor and named the date for trial. again, he was smug about it. I received a letter a week later dismissing my ticket and said he was referring it to county. I never heard anything else about it. It wasn't worth their time. I had a public defender once over a fence with a neighbor. The guy was out of his element. He was timid. Wanted to plea from go. I did just to get it over with. If I would have been able to get a better lawyer, I could have beat it. It just wasn't in the cards at that time. The system is extremely broken and mishandled. Something needs to happen.
Ahem... something has "needed to happen" since 1776.
Only plea for a dismissal, win win.
That doesn't work everywhere. Not all states allow you to force a jury trial over tickets. Some can simply say "pay up or face the consequences."
@@MrErizid you have a constitutional right to a trial.
@@battleaxefabandmachine The constitution has been interpreted such that you do not have a right to a trial by jury for infractions or certain other petty offenses. Some states may provide that right but the constitution does not.
It's not a shortage of lawyers; it's an excess of laws.
And an excess of arrests/warrants leading to detention.
Every year they invent new laws, they admit they won't enforce, but leave on the books in case they need an excuse.
A lot of it is that, honestly, though also the type of laws as well. Excessive levels of complicated nuances and nitpicking over minor things that shouldn't even be an issue. A lot of laws at this point exist where the purpose of the law isn't even to actually convict anyone even, they're really just there to intentionally cause a mess of the system so that the charge itself is the punishment.
You have definitely, 100% done something illegal. You don't know what it is, but that's no excuse. Sure, that law has never actually ever been brought to court, no one has ever been convicted under it, but if someone is annoyed enough at you, they can find an excuse to charge you with something. Victimless crimes, crimes which hinge 100% solely on the opinion of the supposed victim as to whether it's a crime at all, everything from the war on drugs to making gun laws intentionally obtuse so that it's not actually clear whether it's illegal or not to own anything and they can be changed at any moment without warning you other than for the police suddenly showing up to your door one day... like you can argue for or against your opinions on what the law should cover, but it really should be clearly stated. People SHOULD know whether they're doing something wrong or not, and they shouldn't have to guess, and the laws shouldn't be explicitly and intentionally designed to be a trap to catch people unawares. The law, itself, is not supposed to be a punishment before you even get to the verdict.
Unfortunately, this means a lot of important cases are getting bogged down because of trivial cases clogging up the system. It's not just a matter of "how much justice can you afford?" for the defendants, but also for the prosecution now. What happens when they arrest someone, can't get a public defender because it's obviously going to be a messy case, and they're forced to release someone who blatantly should not be released, and they go out and kill someone while they're free? What can they do except start choosing to prune what they're enforcing down further and further until you wind up with situations like San Francisco where some stores are literally being robbed over 100 times a day because they just can't keep up with it and don't really want to because it's a low priority compared to the other problems they have? Once you wind up in that situation, the law as a concept starts falling apart in general, and it snowballs pretty fast. Someone who could've gotten help if it was caught early on instead gets themselves into deeper and deeper trouble until what could have stopped at a robbery becomes a murder case instead.
I don't think anyone actually is happy with that outcome, other than those who don't understand anything that's going on. It just kinda sucks for everyone.
Hopefully there can be some reform of the system in general, but it's going to take some heavy-handed fixes for some areas probably.
and excess of vague laws and an excess of petty bullies who will use any excuse to jail people.
I live in Lane County Oregon, you are wrong, it is a shortage of prosecutors not laws.
They can't? I can think of multiple persons arrested over two years ago who have not even been arraigned. The few that had the means to hire a lawyer were prevented from taking to them in person. Communication intercepted. Medical care denied.
No one seems to discuss that.
What?! Where are the supreme court judges?
Well I mean... people discuss it... it's just nothin' gets done about it.
There are a few in DC
@@siewheilou399 Don't supreme court judges act only on appeal from an attorney on a lower court case?
@@geoh7777
I mean they rule on cases about constitution, and they don't see any violations in this?
It took me a while to realize why this is such a bad thing. They are being held indefinitely because they can't even have a bail hearing without an attorney present, right?
Exactly. And if the crime was something like petty theft (ticketed and released) and then you did not show up for your court date a bench warrant goes out. Then you get arrested and tossed in jail. And the court wont trust you ROR cause you didnt make your first court date.
You can, and that is when you fill out the PD form. I have seen it.
Right to a speedy trial?
It depends on the state and what you call a bail hearing.
At the initial arraignment in Texas after an arrest, there are no lawyers. The judge reads the accused his rights, gives a copy of the complaint and sets bail.
The accused can ask for a court appointed attorney and contest the amount of bail in a reduction hearing later.
And so much for innocent until proven guilty.
Wish this was put in place in all states because it happens everywhere not just Oregon.
Remember, as George Carlin once said "It is not a right if someone can take it from you"
You get all of the justice you can afford.
It's money that matters
Hear what I say?
It's money that matters
In the USA...
(Randy Newman)
Rights are for the rich: Americas motto
Perfect statement
The head of the defense attorney system in Oregon recently stated the state was paying a fixed amount per case based on the crime rather than by the hour resulting in attorneys pushing plea deals rather than court. Discussions are being held on per hour pay. BTW, Oregon has the money, they just wont budget it for defense attorneys.
That is part of the problem with the left coast. They see everyone as part of a group and not an individual.
I'm a fan of watching Judge Manning in Fulton County, Georgia. Regularly, there are people sitting in jail in excess of a year with NO INDICTMENT.
There's a guy in Alabama waiting 10 years in jail for a trial.
Horrible!
@@BlackJesus8463 You could also see the case of Marvin Guy in Texas. He has been held since 2014 without trial, while the state of Texas tried to find grounds to execute him for defending himself against armed home invaders who kicked in his door serving a no-knock drug warrant. No drugs were found, but one of the folks breaking into his house with weapons in the middle of the night died. Rather than put him on trial, they just set an impossible bond and locked him up indefinitely.
Fulton County is a disgrace to humanity
October! Case 1
Good for the judge. Thank you Steve for covering this. It is bad everywhere. There is no attorney shortage - they are all in family court getting fees out of family houses !
10 days is still a long time! Some of these people will doubtlessly be innocent!
10 days without a lawyer or bail? I wouldn’t be innocent long…
I left Oregon 12 years , with absolutely NO !!! regreats !!!👍👍👍 It was getting bad back then .
Moral of the story: Even if you have to live in a box while working a minimum wage job, don't be poor or underfunded in America.
The oligarch states of America.
Land of the ever expanding authoritarianism of your local political party.
Yes, yes, even the one you vote for.
sit back and get everything for free is better
or just don't break the law....
@@lakeguy65616 One can accidentally end up breaking many laws or ordinances just by being poor.
Isn’t this called the American dream?
Wisconsin is terrible for this as well. I was able to hire a private attorney for 2 felony charges so things ran smooth for me. BUT because my entire court case was done via Zoom I was able to see other people's calendar calls before the court. It was very common to hear incarcerated individuals being told that the court had contacted over 100 attorneys and no one had accepted their case yet. The most I ever heard was over 250 attorneys had been contacted and no one took the case yet. I assure you many of these incarcerated individuals had been there well more than 10 days. It's disgusting how American courts treat their citizens like slaves.
CASE DISMISSED!
This is not justice. It is a sham.
Perhaps they should require that licensed attorneys handle one "court appointed" case per year (or month) as part of their continuing education requirement?
Or, governments that choose to bring charges should have to choose provide fair trials.
@@DanielsPolitics1 Potato PotAto
Steve, this is a simple fix. Instead of manual labor during prison sentences you make people study to become lawyers and attorneys! 2 birds 1 stone.
Some people have been in court so often they would have a good frame of reference to start from.
They would not be able to be licensed because of their convictions. Same thing with people who are trained as firefighters while in prison. If you have been convicted of a crime, your debt to society is rarely ever considered paid.
In most such cases, I wouldn't trust the guy to represent me, for reasons that should be obvious. Won't disagree that there are certain lawyers, and judges, practicing who have not been in prison . . . yet.
OK, lest someone think I'm jaundiced against lawyers, I report that I've been well served by several, including a PD (whom I had to hire, but quite reasonably) and a guy who was stationed at the courthouse by either the auto club or legal aid, can't remember, but ages ago, similarly paid by me, but quite affordably. Here's good advice: if you can, through your church, your employer, your insurance agent, or via friends, get contact info for a good lawyer who either can help you out of a jam or refer you to someone who can. Do this before you ever need one. Some employers offer a "benefit" (usually self funded) which amounts to lawyer insurance. The point is to have someone to call. Your ability to deal with nearly any accusation (and hoping that never befalls you) is much better if you're back in your home.
that would be an 8th amendment violation
at least then the honesty of lawyers as a group will go up!
It's amazing how the prosecutors office doesn't face the same funding issues.
The Public Defenders office should have a budget matching the Prosecutors office. Then follow that up with the Prosecutors need to alternate between Prosecution and Public Defending cases so they don't forget you're innocent until proven guilty.
@@MistahHeffo I agree on the budgeting. But with all due respect, there is no f-ing way i trust my legal defense to someone who can be fired by the DA.
Imagine what would happen to the system if everyone decided they wanted to go to trial… the entire legal system would shut down at every level
They'd have to take a hard look at the criminal code and ask whether or not many crimes on the books really ought to be there.
And that my friend would do it and have everyone incarcerated appeal there sentences at the same time and release them until the appeal is granted.
Good.
Its about time a judge followed the law.
In NC they are charging for court appointed attorneys via the back door: if you get a state refund, they take the money. They don't feel so confident about this plan to just outright charge people. I guess they figure if you really want to you can sue them. I told the people I know to just change their withholding such that they never get a refund!
Georgia - same issue. In ~2012, five people were arrested for murder. By 2016, lawyers found for each. Judge then ruled YES -- separate trials for each.
- 2 cases were dismissed
~2016, 1 was acquitted at jury trial
~2017, 1 was acquitted at jury trial
~2023, the last defendant, now 28/29 years old spoke with his mother daily. Mom sent her imprisoned son a card every single day as a way to let him know he was not forgotten. His previous court appointed lawyer resigned in 2021/2022 - health reasons. Judge OK'd.
Defendant wrote letters to judge, prosecutor, sheriff begging for a new lawyer - all letters were ignored ("misfiled" - still using paper files in manila folders in 2023!!). Incredibly, he got the attention of a new young lawyer in the jail on other business who was leery and astonished at his story. The lawyer made inquiries with the judge, court, sheriff, etc... who each first blamed "COVID", then when no-go on COVID, blamed each other after acknowledging that YES, a 28/29 year old male has been in jail for over 10 years "waiting for his "day in court"" and is in fact currently not being represented by a lawyer as there is no money in the budget to cover the cost.
Beyond incredible as I recently heard on the news that some attorneys in the US are now charging over $1,000/hour.
In my opinion, his case should be dismissed WITH PREJUDICE.
10 days still seems absurdly long. That's a life-altering amount of time.
Steve, I am going to send you a story about my son’s case. I hope you’ll read it. It really was TV material. It took almost 5 years, 4 attorneys and 2 trials to get a not guilty verdict. Had they not destroyed the transcript to the 2nd trial the week after the trial ended, I feel that my son had a good case to sue for malicious prosecution but without the transcript, I couldn’t find an attorney to take the case.
I saw something a few weeks ago where a court appointed an attorney to an Indigent guy and after the trial they charged the guy the cost of the attorney
Oh it's not free.
Alabama jailed an innocent person for over a decade. When his conviction was over turned, Alabama sent him a bill for room, board, and medial care.
Well stop being poor, stop being poor and nobody will blame you for it. Hope this helps.
They should make it easier for self defense or non-certified attorney representation if situation is so bad. It is too easy to charge and too hard to defend in the US court system.
Arrest a bunch of attorneys and put them in jail and let them defend those people as part of a work release program... I wouldn't be surprised if they actually try it ..
Tell it to the January 6th protesters STILL being held without being charged.
You can't just keep them in jail indefinitely......if you can't appoint a lawyer then you must release them.
FIRST with something worthwhile to say
But did you get paid by the area you were working or by the clients ?...
true but the whole "if you cant afford it" is subjective..........
You make 10,000$ a year............. that's enough for a lawyer right......
@johndorian4078 no it's not. Lawyers cost 5000 dollars for retainer UP FRONT. Another 5000 dollars PER TRIAL DAY. Also up front, plus 500-750 dollars an hour for anything in-between. Say your trial lasts 4 days.....that's 20 grand alone. So no, 10000 a year is NOT enough to afford justice.
I live in Oregon, and in Washington County. This is indeed a national embarrassment and I hope this situation will be an agent for change in our failing system.
Do t worry. It won’t!
They should have some form of loan forgiveness if you do public defenders work.
Maybe it should be considered a public service, like being in the military, if you choose to be a Public Defender then the education for your law degree is free of charge.
@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket Weekly wouldn't work, since cases can be extremely long and overlap. It takes the separate hearings on their own can result in months, years of trial work. There's also multiple cases with their own schedules going in at the same time. It would just be unfeasible to mix schedules regularly and work efficiently due to that.
in Australia they call it "taking into account time already served, the defendant is now free to go" next.
I have always wondered how much attorneys that take Public defender work get paid for those cases, i have always suspected it was considerable amount less than what they would charge if they were hired by a private client. I know some major cities often have Public defender offices that handle such cases but i suspect they are often badly over worked. On the quality of Court appointed lawyers/Public Defenders i know of one who is likely retired by now that was so infamous for getting those he was assigned to take plea bargains ( even if there was evidence showing they weren't guilty ) so he could get with as little work as possible he got stuck with being called Make a deal and his name which rhymed with deal. I know of people who found themselves in legal trouble found a way to hire a lawyer if they were told they were being given him as their public defender.
Doesn't matter. They're in cahoots with the prosecutor. You DO NOT WANT a public defender.
@@joshuagibson2520more often than not they work together for the best outcome, I was in the gallery for some bail hearings and traffic citations and there was one where the defender and states attorney talked with the judge about a failure to appear, because it was a "pre trial hearing" they all agreed there was no reason to file/grant an extension or warrant and instead set the court date with the understanding that the individual would be sent the summons for the case and they would further discuss a continuation or warrant at the trial date.
I learned long ago that in court, it's you vs. everyone else in the room, including your so-called attorney. Your lawyer is not on your side. Their loyalty is with their co-workers.
@@Dirk_the_Daring:
Actually, with Public PRETENDERS, it's even worse than that.
Having been appointed by the Court to "defend" a client, their "loyalty" (if, indeed they can be said to have ANY), is to whoever (e.g. the Court), writes their paycheck, whether or not the judge is an attorney!
Sounds like the same situation for some people in Washington DC in jail waiting for a trial for the last 2 years....
I had buddy in Humboldt who was arrested there on a traffic stop for an Oregon warrant, held for two days and then stuck on a slow moving transport. Took him almost ten days to get to Roseburg and another week of unlawful interrogations, only to get let out, no evidence at all. They blamed him for the disappearance of a trip sensor they left on some weed spot they were surveying. They made the whole thing up. Fancy that. I guess he was outspoken regarding the authoritarian assholes in the sherrifs department.
Yep.
Years ago I had some trouble stemming from driving on suspended and a probation violation in Florida. This zealous prosecutor wanted me to do 1yr and 1day in prison. I hired a guy fresh out of law school for $1500 and he was thirsty! He filed countless motions and basically wore the prosecutor down.
Check out Minnesota's state public defender system. For decades, we have been having our passion and ethical obligations leveraged against our low wages. Well, enough was enough in 2023. After authorizing a strike in 2021, Teamsters Local 320 support staff and attorney found legislators who agreed with our issues, and fought for us.
Next week, attorneys and support staff will be receiving wages on par with prosecutors. We have achieved parity. It wasn't easy. It took time. It was the right thing to do, and the state legislature agreed...
My brother was held for months without an attorney in Washington County, Oregon. Critical hearings were held, including release hearings without him being represented.
When I was in school I used to go to the court and watch cases. There was an attorney there who literally sent there three days a week in the court hearings it would pick up 5 to 10 cases each time appointed counsel. From my understanding each one paid $350
Politicians keep talking about how tough they're going to get on crime, but then they never seem to want to pay the bill...
Not funding public pretenders is not a bug but a feature
Great reporting by the Oregonian! Kudos to SL for broadcasting it.
Good afternoon Steve! Thanks for all the great content! 🤘
Steve, what would happen to the system if we insisted on counsel AND a speedy trial?
3:44 I finally saw Ben between the book cases on Steve’s left.
GIDEON v. WAINWRIGHT; On that note Mr. Lehto, I am very proud that my early first years in PRE LAW School ( aka Paralegal degree) were with Professor J. MICHAEL SHEA, JD, Esq. ( Florida ) who brought his First case to the Florida State Supreme Court, and then up to the US SUPREME COURT where his case was very reason we have Public Defenders Office in all states. He was my Professor and Mentor. God Bless him!
{ BTW that Gentleman has TWO sets of Turkey Feathers and working on his 3rd. ;-) }
Ten days in jail without a lawyer is too damn long, it should be no longer than a few days at most.
Two business days. Tops. Unless there is something like a hurricane going on closing down travel.
Hey Steve,
Excellent topic and show. I applaude the Judge in this matter and think it should be a Federal Law. Basically if you live in a Red state like Texas or Florida or all the rest it's the same story. I was born and raised in Texas and I have lived in Florida and Massachusetts. I got arrested 25 years ago on Cape Cod for possession of a1/4 ounce of Marijuana. I was taken to the jail and booked then apologized to by the Sargent. He said that the Bondsman was down Cape and would be at least 30 minutes away. To which I asked (confused) I didn't get to call one yet. He explained that in Massachusetts the Bondsman works for the county. He arrived and I asked how much it would cost. He replied nothing. I was even more confused. I got a ride home in a squad car with a court date and an attorney to call the next day. She was a very good young private attorney and got me off with probation and adjudication so no record.
Fast forward 15 years to Putnam County Florida and again arrested for the same thing. I spent 3 months in jail waiting for an attorney then got attacked and nearly killed by a insane 19 year old gangster loosing 6 teeth a fractured skull and multiple injuries. Turns out my attorney also represented him too. Which caused another 3 month delay in jail waiting for court and didn't meet my new attorney until court. I ended up with the same outcome as Massachusetts. Except for all the hell I went through. So yes I applaude the Judge. Thanks 😮
I'll make it simpler than that Steve, they're in jail because they're probably being charged rent while they're in jail there's no monetary incentive for them to actually appoint an attorney for them which brings up the next argument that you can't charge them for them being in jail unless you can show that their rights are actually being applied. By the same token, if the judge or the police officer or the prosecutor in your case has a retirement plan that includes that jail system, that constitutes a conflict of interest?
One should never be charged for being in jail. One is not there because of one's free will.
This could also bring up the question if there are just to many laws!!!! Be interesting what crimes these folks have committed. From what seen in Oregon one can riot, pillage, shoplift, etc and nothing is done!!!
Interesting how they have an infinite budget for prosecution, but almost none for defense. Almost like its on purpose.
Gotta pay the nice officers.
Dont worry about the innocent people locked up or those guilty of not bending over for cops.
Thanks for all you do.
Very educational very fair.
I really wish you were a judge
I wonder if this can be applied to those arrested for sedition @ the capitol that still haven't had their day in court.
Oh no, those people have already been found guilty in the court of public opinion. Their rights are no more. The fact that they have been in jail for multiple years, some without even being charged, is immaterial. It's not a violation of their rights because the accusation has stripped them of any rights they may have had.
Well, some of them have taken plea bargains I think. Point still stands though.
None of them are without a lawyer unless it was their choice to defend themselves. So how would this make a difference?
Charging poor people for judicial defense is punishment
Since this was a Federal judge, I wonder if this will be used as precedent for the January 6 defendants still held without trial, arraignment, or in some cases, even charges. Looks like a basis of lawsuits.
WHO? Name these people. Otherwise, move along, with your lies.
Ahhh yes. These made up martyrs nobody can name.
Name one person
The budget for court appointed defense attorneys should be the same as the budget for the prosecutors office.
I used to have a job that I performed inside of a California superior court, and it was the kind of job where police, prosecutors, and public defenders considered me to be more or less a piece of furniture owned by the court, so I heard some stuff. At least in that court, I would rather represent myself while wearing a clown suit and speaking Klingon than have any public defender except for the one that all of the prosecutors hated. It was openly discussed that this one PD “doesn’t get how it works” and would go to the mat for every client no matter how guilty, instead of steering most into plea bargains and saving his chit for the ones where there was a real problem with the arrest. As far as I’m concerned, there should be no such thing as a public defender- there should be state or federal office that is forbidden to have any communication whatsoever with prosecutors police or judges that will receive and pay the invoice of ANY QUALIFIED LAWYER YOU CAN GET regardless of price, no questions asked.
There should be public defenders in every jurisdiction paid for by tax payers. This department should be funded as well as the prosecutor's office and at the same rates. So whatever a prosecutor makes a public defender makes the same. Also, as a minimum, if the prosecutor's office has 100 people (lawyers, paralegals, and investigators) the public defenders office should have at least 75% of that for a start.
@@ajkendro3413 That is better than what we have for sure, but I think conflict of interest is completely inevitable in any system where the state is sitting at both tables, and on the witness stand, and on the bench, and controls the jury room. You can divide them up anyway you like, but you can’t make the people stop knowing that they all are employed by the same system. If any other entity besides the government wanted to be at both the plaintiff and defendant tables, the courts would tell them to get out because you can’t oppose yourself- only the government is allowed to perform such a farce.
Brit here.
Always interesting to listen to Steve. He tells it how it is in the America legal world in a language that even the poorly educated can understand.
I had,wrongly,always assumed that states in America had public defenders offices. Contracting out public defender work had not occurred to me. However, it is a logical way to manage a variable number of defendants, but of course the money has to be available to pay the attorneys. If l had sweated at law school for n years and racked up $000 of student loans, l would expect an above average pay check.
I like the idea of persons being found guilty having to repay the state for the attorney fees and other court costs.
Reminds me of what is happening in Washington, D.C. with the January 6 defendant's.
Bingo
So what are you doing to advocate on behalf of these people? Just making your statement here? If you don’t advocate for them who will? Are you calling the courthouse? The DA? The press? The institute for Justice? Are you donating to the IJ? Or are you satisfied with doing nothing, not taking it seriously until it’s too late and happens to you or a loved one? The individual has tremendous power; if only they’d exercise it!
Thank God, for a righteous Judge like that Federal Judge 👨⚖️
"We don't participate in the Public Defender Program"
😒🙄😤
of coarse being a michigan lawyer you are 100 percent correct. in michigan the peoples probation order has court cost and attorney fees on their order.
Now I can truly say I've heard everything. There is an Attorney SHORTAGE? What are alligator tears? Said the Raven to the Crow
There’s not an attorney shortage in this case. It’s just that public defense attorneys don’t want to take those cases in that department bc it’s meager cases that aren’t worth taking up for what they’re being paid. Logic would be = defense attorney only paid 12,00 for a few defendants that’s there for having a pipe and some meth. Or take the armed robbery case and get paid $94,000 and make him plead out.. East answer
I really enjoy your stories. Good content Steve.😊
Wait a minute. Is the same entity paying prosecutors also paying public defenders? Never thought about it.
The state will pay for attorneys if you are indigent, if you aren't you still get a public defender, but the state will tack their fees onto any court costs they hit you with. Unless of course you wind up beating the charges, then the state pays. Different states do it differently but at least that's Oregon.
At least in the state I live in prosecutors are employed by the county. Public defenders are employed by the state.
@@Kill3rwasp:
They (Public PRETENDERS), still work in one courtroom (and,at least in their perception), for that judge, on that case.
They're not at all likely to "bite the hand that feeds them", to raise any actual defense for the "client".
Found the article from 2013 its a good read and we need more lawyers like him
Where's the money from all the taxes they collect? All the court fees? All the fines? This country has become completely rotten.
Holding fine revenue until the courts certify that all financial resources for fair trials are being provided sounds a very good idea.
Thanks!
Thank you!
The funny thing with this is that the best thing defense lawyers can do to get off people is to just not show up :$
they will get disbarred
@@glee21012not if they’re grossly overworked.
I may have told you before a judge gave me the right to act as a power of attorney; to ask questions and got my defendant a not guilty and released of the charges against him in Germany court system; just because my hobby was and is law; for protection of myself and others, when I was a Sargant in the army of the USA , and the judge had the prosecutor go into his office after the case was decided for a talking to the prosecutor for malfeasance charging the wrong person he chose not the victim of the crime, with the crime indictment ! and I did not ask to have that put on myself power of attorney; but judge asked both the prosecutor and defense ok with them yes was their answer as well as the defendant !...
Lawyers should be REQUIRED by EVERY state bar to contribute no less than 40 Hrs a year to public defense and it should be directed to "less than median" earners. It should be required to maintain BAR membership and it should be reported each year to The Bar by the individual attorney.
I'd even say that prosecutors should have to do 10h/mo average over the year doing defense.
From what part of the Constitution would that POWER to COMPEL SLAVERY derive?
Yeah, what you're proposing is INDENTURED SERVITUDE. We did away with that a could hundred years back. Some guy named Abe LIncoln?
@@notmyname3883 first off, Abe Lincoln was a tyrant. Not because of slavery but because of what he did to the press and what he did to Baltimore and Maryland. Second, the Bar Association is NOTHING MORE THAN A CLUB AND ABSOLUTELY CAN MAKE THAT RULE and there is nothing any lawyer can do about it. God forbid someone do the right thing within the justice system. Shhesh
@@notmyname3883
It's already done in some high schools where they force the students to do 40 hours of community service, 10 hours per year and the courts have seen nothing wrong with it.
@@notmyname3883 This is specifically why I was suggesting Prosecutors. There's lots of areas of law, several of which don't go anywhere near a courtroom.
I thought in the Meranda rights they had something like "If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you.", so in Detroit, its only free if you are found not guilty?
Can you imagine what it would be like in areas that run privatized detention centers? If you had halfway decent representation you would be out in a day or two. In the case where you sit in a detention center paid daily by the amount in jail through state or federal funds you could be there much longer especially with not enough lawyers. They wouldn't need bogus convictions. Believe me the funds would always be there for that company.
You're assuming only private institutions are ever corrupt. When our current Vice President was an attorney for California, she was illegally denying prisoners release so that they could be used for cheap labor fighting wildfires. That wasn't a private prison bribing anyone.
The system in Canada is very different. Every law firm that does litigation takes on a certain number of ‘court appointed’ hours, based on their billable hours. That way even the big fancy law firms take on court appointed cases, get paid a base rate for those hours. Generally you get lawyers get the cases, but they’re supported by the rest of the firm. Of course, those forms don’t want to lose cases, so they put the effort in, no matter who (or how much) they get paid. I’m not in the system, so I don’t know how well it works, but it’s a very different way to approach it.
If they don't give them lawyers the jail tends to profit more!!!!!!! Could that be why???????
he literally said there's a shortage of lawyers willing to work for minimum [lawyer] wage.
@@darwinwinshe said that, but if they took the money they spend to illegally detain people and spent it on attorneys, it wouldn’t be a problem.
I'm friends with the Indiana Public Defender Comission Chairperson. Great guy, and he works hard to make sure there is good funding for service here. Maybe you should reach out to him, I'm sure he would consider discussing his work and the oddity of being an appointed Libertarian under 3 Republican governors now.
Had a public -->pretender
It's true. She was NOT lying to you. When I was in jail, my public defender called into our pod, asking to talk to one guy, then another guy, then finally me.
As long as policing for revenue is the system, These numbers nationwide will only get worse. As long as speedy trial isn't defined. People will spend way to long with high bail. Most innocent people will plead guilty to get out...
This is the system you get when you set the price of a law degree at $300,000.00 +
There are J6 defendants sitting in jail without due process, our system is a mess.
Part of the problem is "Oregon was run by Kate Brown".
There, I fixed it for you
now its run by kate brown 2.0. meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Love Lehtos law. You are the best. G
Lawyers should be forced under tax code to be public defenders. With so many lawyers in the country acting as lampreys, its the least they could do to make the system more efficient.
Force someone to work for you…didn’t we call that slavery??
@@HospitalLocksmith Licensing requirements are not forced labor. You can choose to not be a laywer at any time.
Goddamn you, you made me look up the term "Lamprey" and I still don't understand what you mean by it.
There are actually allot of jobs out there that require you to work for low pay before your licensed.
Could definitely be a thing for attorneys.
Finally, a judge doing his job!