You can stop at comparing traffic safety and submarine safety. You can also stop comparing a three hour walkon the road to jet-skiing off Mt Everest. Personally, I don't care about jet-skiing off Everest.
My question is what would it take to safely put a manned submersible at that depth repeatedly (say ten times)? I am not sure it is needed, but I agree with your assessment that people will keep trying until they find that magic cost/value ratio that makes it commercially viable. Then they will do it more. :)
@@digiryde A roughly spherical pressure vessel is a good start. Using materials with strong compressive strength is as well. Carbon fiber is good at containing pressure as long as the pressure within is greater than the outside environment, not as good at resisting crushing from differential pressure.
Sadly, this isn’t an example of learning from our mistakes. This is an example of ignoring what has been learned from past mistakes. Almost everyone familiar with deep sea submersibles or even pressure vessels in general knew this craft was poorly designed for the task and was unsafe. This is a classic example of an egomaniac who refuses to learn from the past.
Best comment around. Da Vinci gave too much respect to Stockton that he did not deserve, he didn't push new frontiers. He bypassed what was learned by smarter people from him in a effort to defy nature and aggrandize himself. He died as a result, but not only him.
Agreed, best comment. Everyone with the expertise knew the sub would fail. There was no innovation, from Stockton’s venture. Just recklessness, and how regulations are written in blood.
Previous clients on the doomed vessel mentioned they heard what sounded like cracking noises. Seems obvious those were more than mere noises at this point but the graphite hull being damaged.
Bored rich narcissists, always 'innovating' things that already exist but in ways so dangerous and/or stupid that professionals long since found better ways. But since they have the money, ergo they are smarter by their vapid metric, all these oppressive regulators are just stiffeling their genius. (As opposed to trying to keep their brand of entitled stupidity from taking out innocents.)
The reason I quit the engineering profession was because the folks holding the money hired me only because the law required my stamp on the drawings. They would build things differently from what I had designed. Often the choice wasn't a big deal, and most of what I did was of low risk to life and property (AC systems for buildings, including high rises). But, some of it was vital to life safety, e.g. pressurization of the elevator shafts and fire exit stairwells. They have to be pressurized enough to keep smoke out but not make the doors impossible to open. It is very difficult to do right and was not well done sometimes. Eventually the building gets certified, but it was after I stopped receiving reports and the latest test. If things later went south with a fire in the building and people dying due to smoke in the stairway, I'd be on the liability hook for something that I didn't agree with and never formally signed off on, mainly because my engineering stamp was on the initial drawings. I decided that I was working in the wrong industry, considered other engineering areas, then changed to a completely different career. I've felt much better about my control over my professional life ever since.
Did you watch OceanGate's fired chief engineer David Lochridge's evidence to the current Coastguard public inquiry this week? You'd have found it fascinating, and I'm sure many aspects of what he had to say would resonate with your own experiences.
Your reason for quitting the engineering field sounds familiar. It rates right up there when, as a life long mechanic, I get a call from a person. Often just an acquaintance but on occasion could be someone I consider a good friend. Anyhow the person will call and describe their problem and then ask my opinion. I may very well know almost exactly what the problem is and how to fix it. I would then go on to describe said failure and the proper way, or sometimes ways of going about fixing same problem. 2 days later I find out that person did every single thing I told them not to do and pretty much took my advice and threw it out the window when in fact I was giving them valuable advice how to solve their problem and did so free of charge. What does the person do? The exact opposite. Why even ask me in the first place if you are not going to follow my experienced advice? I've known frustrated engineers who have said the same things as you mentioned. Over 30 years ago a good friend was relatively new to the field but was sharp and his abilities were to be trusted. He called me up one day to vent, he was so mad and frustrated! His small team were in charge of designing the front suspension for in believe was then the soon to be new Mark 8 Lincoln. A suspension component engineer! His whole team already had successful accomplishments. Suddenly they find themselves with a new "boss". What this woman said was final. Turns out she didn't even know what a shock absorber was let alone it's purpose. This was the head of the front suspension design for a new Lincoln. I felt his pain. Took him 2 days of weekend drinking to get over it and go in Monday and just do what he was supposed to do and deal with it best he could. He left the company not too long after that.
@@williamstamper442 Sounds like DEI raised it's ugly head on that one. I've recently retired from corporate recruiting having specialized in Engineering and IT applications. In general Engineering Managers were my favorite clients as they were by necessity the most grounded in objective reality. One of them always referred to HR as "Neither Human nor a Resource". :D
@williamstamper442 Yeah my high-school bff is aero astro engineer and he's quit because they kept ignoring his work to keep a certain future military vehicle safe. Like why?
Even though a lot of leaders don’t like it, always listen to that single person that doesn’t praise you all the time. Time spent with the yes-people is just wasted time.
I’m an engineer. Some of my grad school work involved carbon composites. The fact that they “hand glued” the metal ends to the carbon tube in a dirty open air warehouse is all you need to know. They couldn’t even take the time to do a proper mixing process, use a clean room or at the very least a positive pressure room with minimal precautions like tyvek overalls and hair netting. That one video where they are so proud of themselves gluing the two halves together would be like a nightmare of getting caught outside in your dirty underpants during rush hour to any real composites professional. Not to mention other details such that it wasn’t inspected with NDT which most certainly does exist for something like that, the pre-preg they used was expired or outside of the useful window, and the layup wasn’t vacuumed during curing… those are just the surface level mistakes that we know of, imagine all the stuff under the surface.
@@dyslexiccowoom3991 that sounds idiotic to me. I don't know submarine engineering and was surprised to read the above comment because I would not think gluing would require a clean room. Yes clean but the comment made it sound like a computer chip clean room which is insane clean. I have used epoxies and glues and most are just mixed up casually so I was surprised to see it needed such high standards. Yes the touching with bare hands sounds crazy as it would leave oils and I 3d print and when my kids touch the print bed I tell them please don't and then have to clean it thoroughly with alcohol. So I could see that level of clean mattering but never thought clean room hair net would be so critical. I would picture a solvent to clean contact surfaces and precise measuring of the epoxy so it had the proper mixture. Anyways this whole thing seems to be a crazy project. Maybe this sub would be good for shallow dives but he set his sights way too high.
As a Tool&Diemaker, I LOATHE the engineer.... unless they came up from the trade. Nothing personal, we need engineers, just wish they had aome humility.✌️
@@jayman912 after the mixing phase, the epoxy needs to be vacuumized (i'm not native but pretty sure it is called "degassing". to remove air bubbles from the mixture), even for home purposes imho, just a good manner
When i worked for ensign we built a drilling rig. No blueprints. Two other guys and myself did all the hydraulics. After the project was near completion it was in tear down phase to be moved to its first well site. The procedure to lower the rig down was to lower the sub floor then lower the mast. I was working on another rig beside it on the day my friend was lowering the sub floor. The steel supports on the sub floor buckled (poor engineering) and one side of the sub floor fell a good 6 to 10 feet leaving the rig tilting a good 30 degrees. I watched the mast starting to fall towards me standing on the neighbouring sub floor. I though i was going to get crushed, the mast was heading right for the rig i was standing on. By some miracle the mast didnt break and settled at this new angle. The hydraulic rams that raised sub floor were completely sheered off with our hydraulic system pumping oil everywhere. There was supposed to be an emergency kill switch on ground level to shut off the hydraulic pumps but the electrians had not completed the wiring yet😅. I explained to the site supervisor that once the hydraulic system tank emptied all of the oil the pumps will continue to run( they were supplied power by the on board generators which were also running) he told me not to worry about it as it was too dangerous to go up there and shut them down. I explained to him once that oil is gone those pump will cavitate and will continue to run and catch fire, and the 3000 liters of oil on the ground will turn this site into an inferno. I told him that pump must be shutdown. While all the higher ups were telling me not worry about it and just let it fail, i was adamant that a fire will make this situation much worse. Ultimately the supervisor agreed and went up there himself to shutdown the pumps and the generators. The yard was shutdown for a few weeks so they could asses how to lower the mast safely. Once it was lowered all but 6 of 40, of the 2 inch mast bolts were sheered off when the mast fell, it was literally hanging on by luck. To this day i feel like if a fire had started it would have wekened the steel and it would have fallen over onto the other rig. I got no recognition for this or thanks, i probably saved them millions of dollars.
@@paarker they might have been ok if it was an actual half way Decent controller. Both the US and Royal air force's use Xbox controllers with their drones. as it was it was a bottom line $9.99 Logitech controller.
it imploded. the part you see on the floor is the motor and all that stuff. the carbon fiber tube is almost completely gone in a thousand pieces along with whatever meat as left. fat they glued carbon fiber to metal and thought that was safe shows the man was a moron.
The fact that the implosion started at the front means that the “meat” could’ve been pressed into the rear dome. This would explain the “presumed remains”. Essentially human goo.
I've got a prosthetic leg made of carbon fibre and metal. Works great and I wouldn't ever want to go back to the fibreglass and wood prosthetics that I grew up with. I've had a prosthetic delaminate while I was running. It happened fast and sounded like a gunshot. How anyone in their right mind would step foot in OceanGate blows my mind.
The founder didn't want sub experts working on the design because they had European ancestry. Pretty sad this how decisions were made. You'd think you'd want the most qualified working on it.
@@AWriterWandering This. At first I thought it was absurd given the preliminary simulations and the mostly agreed upon style of implosion, but now after seeing the actual wreck I am willing to bet there's a lot of human goo at the bottom of the rear dome. The way it failed is clear. Instead of failing directly in the middle crushing them evenly all around into oblivion, they were instead instantly hydraulically pressed into the back of the rear dome... Jesus.
The worst kind of business owner is the one who thinks he is a genius, an inventor, an explorer and a visionary instead of striving to be an engineer and a rationalist
1986, i watched the shuttle explode on tv. It was so cold in NC our water froze. Even as a kid I couldn't understand why they was launching in such cold. Even then I knew things that are designed to work in hot conditions don't usually work so well in cold conditions. O- Rings get stiff. And go throw a Frisbee in 20°f weather , let it hit something, mine exploded, I could have carried it home in a coffee cup. The pieces were tiny most about 1"x1" a few 1"x2" and 2"x2", the physical world is amazing when you pay closer attention . And always ask TWO questions, WHY and HOW ❓ things are truly amazing!
The root of the problem is that we have non-technical leaders making technical decisions without deferring to experts. If you don't work in a technical role, you're not an expert in technical matters, even if you're a technical leader. So we have PFAS and many other toxins like E250 nitrites in our air, water and food, deadly 3 ton "self-driving" cars, addictive prescriptions, and failing public services in the "richest" country in the world. I hate leaders, especially American leaders. They're the absolute worst and most arrogant.
Scientist are getting the kick here in New Zealand too. We have had a few leaders whose souls are shaped to serve - Jacinda Ardern the most recent. But things swing quickly and right now our government gave tax cuts to the rich and landlords at about $3B, funded by equivalent cuts to education, health, welfare. All against official advice and not the same as election promises. They cancelled a $550M inter-island ferry contract with Hyundai, a reputationally embarrassing move for us as a nation. Two of the three ferries here have lost power adrift at sea in the last few months - the ferries are an economic essential for this nation, fundamental infrastructure. They have made redundant 5000 or 6000 public servants. We're a population of 5M, so that's quite a few in the scheme of things. They've slashed anti-tobacco legislation, rolled back automatic gun regulations, and opened the doors for mining and drilling. And they are racist in trying to undermine and weaken the constitutional basis of the colonial relationship with the original inhabitants, Maori, who are still dishonestly dispossessed of land they never gave away. They have sought removal of Maori language from government, and removed funding in schools (foreboding, Orwellian). This is Atlas-style sticking the finger to the population. You can tell, I'm upset with the greed. Sorry to rant, but I was triggered by the number of scientists - particularly those dealing with climate and environmental management, being fired here. Our leaders are actively removing obstructions to speeding up the funnel of money to the few. Age-old battle.
@@HowievYT I feel you! Sadly, this is so true all over the world. Money is so much more important to some - unfortunately mostly the powerful - people who don't only have no BAD conscience, but appearently none at all... Quick profit over common sense and expertise, betrayal instead of decency... 😔
This is the same trend you see with every engineering disaster like this where it's not a single point of failure. It's a long chain of improper materials, insufficient analysis, skipped over testing, and disregarded warnings before an actual emergency happens.
A k a "Das Emmenthaler käse prinzip". Englishspoken people know it as "The Swiss Cheese Principle". A lot of little things happen that all contribute to the final disaster, and it could have been stopped, up until the final mistake. When an aircraft disaster happens we cannot know before the formal investigation what was the problem. But we can be reasonably sure (not 100%, but "almost") that if a boss or an owner goes public within a day of the accident saying that it was the pilot's fault, then it wasn't. Ok, sometimes the pilot is *partly* responsible, but often it's the little things before, like cutting corners, or pure laziness of others, including the big boss tanking up too little fuel before the flight... (And yes, he was on that unfortunate flight.) A lot of little holes in the cheese, all hung up on the same stick. In the airliner business it's gone so far that somebody said that the biggest remaining threat to safety is individual pilots who can't stand it that they have to follow well tested safety rules. Just like Mr Oceangate. cheers / CS
Years ago worked in the fire alarm field for just over 10 years. There are basically 2 types of fire notification, first is life safety, second is property protection. Obviously life safety takes precedence over any other notification. You would think on a submarine any kind of life safety notification would take a freaking high level of importance. Fire alarm systems have quite a bit of redundancy built into their designs so that if one system fails there are still other systems in place to notify of a condition again with life safety taking precedence. If I was to go visit the Titanic in a sub, that thing better have ALL of the life safety notification built in, and it better be tested and work! Id want to see that first hand before going for a dive. None of this would ever happen, meaning the part about me going for a dive in a submarine but for those who would, id like to think their standards would be as high as everyone else on the life safety part. When the owner of the company tends to blow off that part I'm pretty sure that's when a person says "yeah thanks but no thanks".
@@danquaylesitsspeltpotatoe8307 Also that given the complete reconnaissance video and a thumbnail of the imploded pressure vessel was available if he had so desired, it proves that he also cannot identify something imploded, although he did correctly identify one of the quadrillion objects on earth that are also not imploded. 😂
Mr Stockton murdered everyone on board due to his pride, ego, and “I know better than thou” attitude. I can’t even begin to imagine the horror of everyone on board when this submersible imploded. The horror, the pain…etc. Lord have mercy.
@@theworldtomorrow3960 I believe it was said that he knew there was an issue and dumped weight. I'm guessing shortly there after, in a nano second, it was all over. This would've happened faster then your brain can compute. Imagine it like this. The deeper you go, greater the pressure. In this scenario, water wants the air gone and wants to take its place. Every air molecule in your body is violently replaced by water. Skin, fluids, blood, bones etc, this is why if any remains is found, it will just be a goo. Like putting drops of food coloring in water. This is extremly violent and happens in nano seconds. So fast in fact that as the vessel compresses before the a tual implosion, the air inside becomes extremly hot, yes, you burn, but for a nano second. Yes, you are a crisp potatoe chip in a nano second and then immediatly and violently destroyed. You know nothing of what happened.
I'm a dual tradesman in heavy industry. The ONLY time i trust engineers is literally when they are raising their concerns. I'll down tools in a heartbeat, against my supervisors wishes until that engineer confirms I won't be in danger
There was an executive, the head of Engineering at the company I work for infamously said that he hated Engineers because they always told him why things couldn't be done.
It was Morgan or Rockefeller or someone equally accomplished in business who once said, "I don't have lawyers and accountants to tell me what I can do. I have them to find a way to tell me that what I want to do can be legal and profitable". No successful businessman has a similar saying about engineers.
@alcampbell5831 I worked QC and quit after 3 years because stupid engineer decided to make a change on a charger I told him would fail, and put a memo saying as such. Lucky for me I forward all my emails to my own server, because sure enough, chargers failed after an hour and he tried to pin it on me. Soon as I saw my email account at work get wiped, I bolted and sent copies company thought they deleted with a warning I'd forward it to their customers if they ever tried that BS again. Ended up working for their competitors.
It imploded. The white wreckage in the thumbnail is the machinery section, which was designed to operate at ocean pressure so there was nothing to implode. The pressure hull was a separate piece, and you can very, *very* clearly see that it imploded. Scott Manley did a video on this.
I'm not a physicist or mathematician but I like to make art using acrylic epoxy resin. There is no way I would ever hinge my life on an epoxy window. And when I saw how the carbon fiber was "woven", the seamstress in me said, "HA!" And when they said they'd navigate based on the crackling sounds and claimed the shattering window was a "warning device" it proved to me that money and degrees isn't a good metric for intelligence.
Aircraft windows are made from plastic. So if you've ever flown, you've already put your life in the hands of plastic. You cannot survive at the altitude of an aircraft when it's at cruising altitude.
I used nearly a cylinder of propane over the course of about 15-20 minutes to remove two ceramic tiles glued with epoxy. This glue holds tenaciously under high temperature. Then on a cold frosty day I popped off each tile with ease, removing about 200 within a few minutes time. A tiny jolt with the Titan striking the ocean floor at an angle instead of landing level on its platform would have been sufficient to dislodge the titanium cone that was glued with epoxy to the carbon fibre hull. All indications are that failure commenced at that junction. The observation window was rated for 2000 meters, but likely had several times that strength.
There also the problem of flexing. The titanium flexes very differently then carbon fiber and if this isn't accounted for one receives increased load rather then it being evenly disturbed. Given that we now know it failed near or at the from o ring its likely this was a big factor in a already week area.
Brilliant description of what I call meta-engineering. In engineering school, the primary thing you learn is how to do a proper job of analysis. Some of us were also schooled as a matter of every engineering class, the more important elements of integrity, speaking up when necessary, balancing risk and progress in new endeavors. There is no math for that. But the principles are well established. A significant number of engineers with 10 years or more experience would have done what the chief engineer at Oceangate would have done. He was brilliant. He was balanced and carefully weighed the alternatives. His choice was, I will not go down in the sub. That choice saved his life and his story. The knowledge from his story is invaluable.
Challenger was the first time “normalization of deviation” came to the forefront, which is basically “hey, it didn’t explode last time, so that proves it won’t explode next time.” That is a dangerous game!
They were getting pressure from the media and the publicity seeking politicians to launch because they had already scrubbed the launch so many times that week. Everyone got impatient. I saw the pictures of the icicles hanging from parts of the rocket just before they launched. The decision to launch was made by corporate executives, not engineers. Remember, they fired the whole board at Thiokol after the disaster and made the engineer that was trying to stop the launch the head of the company.
You think NASA would've learned from that, but 17 years later a chunk of foam strikes Columbia at high speed smashing out a part of the heat shield and dooming 7 more astronauts. Chunks of foam had struck shuttles in the past and the attitude was "Hey, it didn't hurt anything the last time"
1. Carbon fiber has high tensile strength but not high torsional strength 2. The pressure differential at ‘Titanic depth’ is over 370 times GREATER than the pressure differential experienced by an aircraft if it went into Outer Space - a vessel under pressure experiences torsional stress, while an airplane tends to experience tension stress 3. Even if the above is not enough to deter one from diving in a carbon fiber cylinder, ask “How is the carbon fiber cylinder affixed to the titanium end caps?” - the answer ALONE should be enough to deter one from diving 4000 M in that thing! (the answer to that question is: “We GLUED them together.” I cannot see how anybody in their right mind would dive to a pressure over 5,500 PSI in a vessel that was GLUED TOGETHER! Good grief! One does not have to be an ME to figure that out!
@@kenday7942 It is the poor compressive strength of carbon fibre laminate not the torsional strength. Torsional forces are twisting forces not compressive.
The glued together is not the problem it is what is glued together. My experience with a composite bulkhead glued into a composite tube and placed under extreme pressure suggest that glued together with both composite items is fine. In the cases I have seen it was the removable aluminum bulkhead that seems to be a bigger problem of interfaces.
@@jeffro221 yeah, simulations that take into account the glue show that the vessel didnt even implode, the front Just separated and everyone got squished into the back,
@@xxizcrilexlxx1505 I can believe it wasn't the cylinder that imploded and then popped the end bells off. I have always thought most likely one of the glued joints failed and popped it's end bell loose and, poof, instant destruction. The cylinder probably deformed in the front enough to breech the joint and then whamo.
my buddy used to do this funny trick where he would very carefully stand on an aluminum can so that it didn't compress. then with the slightest of pressure, he would just graze his finger across the center and the can would instantly crush down. I keep thinking that the whole vessel was nothing more than a big aluminum can.
It's a wonder that the sub didn't have cameras inside to record the experience for the people as they reacted, sending their informations to a protected storage unit. It would have so helped to determine where things went wrong too.
Not really. Sending wireless transmissions through that much water requires very low frequencies, which can't send much data. I'm not even sure if you COULD stream video from the bottom of the ocean.
@@Spacecookie- How else are you going to send camera data in case the sub fails and falls down to the bottom of the ocean? It's not like you can retrieve it after the fact. Are you gonna bring a 12,500 foot cable with you?
It's important as a lesson to not trust billionaires with engineering. Everyone, EVERYONE, in the sub industry TOLD him repeatedly it wasn't safe, the carbon fiber x titanium build wasn't safe, the shape wasn't safe. Everyone told him and he said "f you guys, you're fired, i know better" and went down anyway. He lied to his engineers apparently and I'll bet he lied to the passengers too. This isn't new tech anymore. We know how to build these to work, but the physics wasn't cool looking enough or some garbage for this idiot. There's nothing to learn here because we already KNEW it was a trash build and all the ways it could and would fail.
My dad was an aerospace engineer who specialized in composites, starting early in the 60’s. It was lighter, stronger and better suited to low atmospheric pressures.than metals. Perfect for space but completely unsuited to the insane pressures at depths. Its strength is that it stenches, it’s weakness is that it cannot stand too much compression. It is the exact WRONG tool/material for the job. He would have been appalled by Stockton Rush.
The company I work for does composite pressure housings for under the sea. This is done for technical reasons not because composites are the easiest to use for the job.
@@kensmith5694 Right, its a materials compromise. Sometimes you need to use a material that's inferior in one aspect but superior in another. Unfortunately in the case of the Titan, their choices were based on cost reduction rather than technical constraints.
As a structural materials engineer, I found your explanation insightful, especially regarding the materials used in the Titan submersible. Although I’m not a mechanical engineer or submarine specialist, the choice of materials concerned me even before the accident. Specifically, the combination of carbon fiber composite and titanium, with their vastly different moduli of elasticity, raised questions about the potential for differential thermal expansion and contraction under varying temperature and pressure conditions. This mismatch could lead to significant shear stresses at the material interfaces, as you’ve described. Thank you 🙏🏽
As I licensed millwright I'd like to believe even the average person would see this was a dister in the making. It's not that the Titan failed, it's that it lasted as long as it did. Stockton effed around and find out.
I think that's only because of the way the two materials were matted to each other. If this was a singular structure like a fully composite wrapped tube with ports for entry. It likely wouldn't have failed at that point, and an FEA analysis could have shown that being the weakest point.
Exactly. And one doesn't even have to be an expert to realize that. I'm a biologist with a measly one-or two-semester physics background, and it was intuitively clear to me that there is no way materials as fundamentally different as titanium and a carbon fiber/epoxy mix could be a perfect match in terms of their expansion/contraction rates etc. by sheer coincidence.
The Titanic was supposed to be a warning about our ego when it comes to engineering feats. The Titan submersible was supposed to be the reminder. And if what I'm reading about other trips to the Titanic is accurate, neither of those messages have been heard
@@brianalambert1192 Titanic = fail Titan = fail So what did they name the newest sub? Triton 4000 🤦♂️ Tri = 3 3 accidents before we are going to learn?
@@Aaron_Hanson Yes well the issue is also that spherical deep dive craft do much better re the dispersal of pressure build up. Cylindrical was crazy, in such a small tin-can, unprofessional sub such as the Titan. Another sad comparison with Titan & Titanic is that sub-standard parts were used to cost-cut. ( E.g: the cheapo rivets used on the Titanic allowed the iceberg to rip her sides apart quite easily. Hmm. 😮☕🥀
@@anjou6497 my point was directed at the similarities in the vessel names. Tri = 3 and they’re going to send a third vessel to the deep ocean. I wouldn’t be in that vessel even if it was rated for ten miles depth and you payed me 100 million dollars! Not with the name Triton. Name it Implosion and I’d go for a million dollars 😂
you would run tests until failure and ensure that you had at least 1.4-2x factor of safety at the pressure the vessel is designed for. Regulations are too time consuming? Curious if they would now argue for a do over.
agreed and well said... their argument is that it would be so cost prohibitive that it would have made it impossible to go to market... but that's a really slippery slope
The timeframe Patrick Lahey gave today for certification for a "never before done" type of vehicle was less than what it took OceanGate to get a submersible built to the point of attempting to test anyway. The whole idea that certification was too time consuming or too expensive was complete BS. He just didn't want to have to collaborate with any certification agency because it was his way or the highway and that wouldn't work for certification.
@@bees5461 Certification is time consuming and expensive; but not as expensive as the cost of lives. As you say, certification is something the owner just didn't want to do and that's the only real reason. I wonder if they thought they were going to go bankrupt and instead of getting new funding sources, he took cost cutting measures.
@@ronblack7870 Seems he liked to compare himself to Musk - but Musk's rockets and cars are incredibly safe, because a lot of them were tested to destruction. He was no Musk.
Guys wanna know the craziest fact here? They HAND GLUED the carbon fiber to the titanium. Hand glued it. And I have actually seen no indication that they used a physical or chemical abrasive prior, and neither have others I’ve spoken to about this subject. So they just smeared this stuff they called “peanut butter” in the carbon fiber hull and on the titanium and shoved the titanium in. Carbon fiber doesn’t work this way! It takes pulling pressure, not pushing. It isn’t meant to have pressure pushing on it like that. It’s going to give. It’s GOING TO GIVE. Everyone knew this and tried to warn Stockton and he flat out ignored it and said “yeah but I know I know better, and I know it’ll work”. I don’t know how he convinced himself. I truly don’t. Maybe he just didn’t care and wanted to die instantaneously. But to murder those other people… it’s horrific. He knew better than to hand glue that carbon fiber to the titanium. He knew better than to use carbon fiber! He knew better, and he chose to ignore it. He knew how carbon fiber works and how it isn’t meant for high pressures to be pushed in it. It can handle pulling. It can handle when the pressure is pushing outwards on it. Not when it’s pressing inwards. And he knew this.
My dad was an aerospace engineer who specialized in composites. It was lighter, stronger and better suited to low atmospheric pressures.than metals. Perfect for space but completely unsuited to the insane pressures at depths. Its strength is that it stenches, it’s weakness is that it cannot stand too much compression. It is the exact WRONG tool/material for the job. He would have been appalled by Stockton Rush.
Why do civilians need to go down to these depths? For bragging rights? You get a better view from the cameras on a drone than out a tiny window. The whole thing is so senseless.
@@_winston_smith_ So true, if I was wealthy I would make a high def camera drone sub to go down and film stuff and watch on a big screen high def tv in the comfort of my mansion with munchies 😂
You can't simulate the weightlessness of space, but put the Titan on a flight simulator base with a 4K (or better?) display in front of the viewing window, showing the drone view, and the passengers would have a hard time telling the difference between simulation and reality.
yeah I mean you gotta be a little crazy to try new things... but maybe the crazy leaders need pragmatic engineers that they LISTEN to ... to balance things out
To be fair the media kind of did Stockton a disservice in not explaining that he helped revolutionize air travel by introducing carbon fiber in to aircraft design. Just like with this, everyone told him it could not be done. But in fact it could be, and carbon fiber designed aircraft’s are standard. So, he had proven people wrong before. Unfortunately, he was not a very good engineer.
@@Luna_LU6546 Except when the “scientists” believe they know everything when they don’t and cause or create those disasters. See all the lies and inhumane policies pushed by the supposed “scientists” during and about COVID. They still haven’t paid for any of that nor called out or held accountable.
Man, i LOVE that you don't mince words and just GO in with what we are all thinking. Not many people brave enough to speak the truth on the internet these days
I am power electrical and later automatic control engineer, so not the mechanical type to explain best this. But as electrical engineer I can tell you that regulations and safety protocols and all made for a VERY good reason. Never even allow your ego to push you to ignore the safety procedures! People died for many of these procedures to get established. You are not smarter genius than all before you. The good smart engineering is not about skipping the rules and ignoring what was done before you. It is about smartly re-using all that was done before you. Based on the above, I can say that I detect rising arrogance and narcissism in many of the contemporary business elite. Some things I read about AI and autonomous driving for example are not going to end well... here is me as control engineer speaking.
I can't get past he had All this money yet he didn't invest in making the strongest most durable submersible haul humanly possible. Using spun carbon fiber in between titanium caps is THE DUMBEST THING. Especially when you deal with intense compression repeatedly!!
Did he though? The money, I mean. I think Mr. Rush was another "billionaire" in his own mind. Else, he would not have had to chase customers to Vegas to convince them to make the trip. We keep hearing about all these paying customers lined up, but when a couple bailed, he chased the eventual victims across the USA and then filled the rest of the crew with his friends.
He can make the strongest possible titanium hull. But The issue is logistic. He need to bring the cost of each dive to the level that customers are willing to pay. Thus the vessel has to be made extremely light.
Most regulations are written in blood. This is what goes through my mind when someone makes blanket statements about "burdensome" regulations. Following regulations is too expensive or time consuming? Well, then the thing you are trying to do is beyond your means. The big thing that gets to me is that this was a choice. Someone had all the information available to them and they chose to listen to their ego instead. They chose their "want" over their "need". They could have made it an rov with a pressure vessel. They could have started operations in a fail safe manner. They could have tested their sub in situ. Learned what it could do, what it couldn't do, and what it's failure point was, all without risking anyone's life. They chose to put people in that sub
i love the way they were pretending they were doing science and discovering new things, when all he wanted to do is make money off of other rich people taking tours. He was really mostly concerned with getting going to generate income.
5 famous quotes of this CEO: 1) If you want safety, stay in bed. 2) All government safety regulation in placed sole purpose is to stifle scientific innovation. 3) Money spend on safety considerations is pure waste. 4) You will be remembered for breaking rules. 5) Make sure others are with you in a doomed journey.
He wasnt even following the industry standard. Apperently he was bragging about dodging regulations before this happened. Dude thought he was smarter than everyone
Thank you, for one of the most informative videos about this. I am an automotive mechanic for the last 45 years and that said even I know carbon fiber is not designed to handle extreme pressures. I also would like to thank the other engineers and professionals that work carbon fiber for a profession for their comments below. The video plus these comments benefit the viewer with knowledge they may not have. Thank you TBdV and the engineering and professional commenters.
From my experience with pressure housings for deep sea stuff it goes nothing, nothing, nothing bang. There is no warning at all and once a failure starts to happen the damage goes at the speed of sound through the material. The composite material turns into powder because there is a lot of energy in the situation. The people on board wouldn't have even known it happened.
We hope they didn't know it anyways. None of us was there so who knows how it went down precisely. I'd sure prefer to not see it coming, but who knows. Life tends to be cruel and very strange at times.
They know something was going wrong. The sub most likely tipped nose down, completely vertical before it imploded. That'd pretty much let you know at that point you're going to die. It's just waiting in panic for it to happen.
LOL you had to get help from your keyboard to spell arrogance, speak of death as if it were a being, and then go to say i have the lack of a singular intellect.. but go off 🤣🤣🤣😅
The problem is these people were lead by a man who actively bragged about not following procedure, not learning from the past. His limited understanding off the science and its application convinced him he was right. He said that he deliberately broke rules and then laughed about it on camera. He sounded proud about it. This wasn't so much an accident as... a roll of the dice. A losing hand at cards. The stakes were not (only) money, but death. No one was walking away poorer but wiser.
I don't really buy the "convenience versus safety" argument because the Titan team didn't even do the bare minimum of testing. And yes, nothing can be "perfectly safe", this doesn't mean that testing and standards are useless. There are degrees of safety and standardization and they did none of it.
The thumbnail is awful it was definitely an implosion framing the unpressurized tail section as the passenger section is just flat out miss information borderline disinformation
That is the tail cone. It was not pressurized, therefore the stress was equal on all sides. The titanium-ended cylinder did implode, and you could totally have used that as your thumbnail snd been intellectually honest.
The other clip shows the other section of the sub with an end dome still attached to remnants of CF, whilst the other dome elsewhere was stripped clean of CF. This is why it's more likely the glue separation rather than the hull failing in the middle caused the incident
Ricky, thanks for reviewing this subject. Obviously, there's a ton of these videos, each person with their own take on it. What resonated with me is your engineering perspective of tradeoffs. EVERYTHING is a tradeoff, and as a fellow engineer, I've totally gotten my head around that. This event is absolutely a tragedy for those involved but as you pointed out, the edge of the envelope gets pushed out further and we as a society learn how to go a little bit further while still being able to get back alive.
Something i learned from overclocking CPUs, you want to stress test your overclock until it fails over and over again until you really know the stable performance threshold. This works well with safety issues too. You really need to know the limits of your equipments
Yes, if you are looking for reliability and not 1 time records this is exactly what you must do. Run every kind of test not just the high load ones, jump between all load states using all available instruction sets. If you are testing for a customer who wants say 48 hour Kahru stable at so and so spec, test it for a higher spec at 72 hours before calling the requirement good enough. If possible test it at very low temperatures and very high temperatures, with different amounts of airflow including none etc. Find the lowest voltages for each and every rail (ie for memory cpu vddq-tx, cpu vdd2, system agent, dram vdd, dram vddq, dram vpp) and then add 20-40mv for a buffer an on and on
It is hard to believe anyone would think using two different materials and gluing them together and using under such high pressure is a usable idea. Also, using any other shape than a sphere seems odd.
@@G_de_Coligny True, but due to the relationships of 4/3 πr³ for volume and 4πr² for area, the amount of added weight of material and the huge increases in surface area for even small increases in radius make spheres above a certain size impractical, or requires joinery that introduces potential failure points. The original bathysphere was of as few parts as mechanically possible and as small as possible, because the amount of force exerted on the hull increases with the square of radius and you are more subject to the modulus of elasticity the greater the surface area, requiring a thicker hull, more weight, and reducing any gains in usable space. ETA: God, I'm a nerd. 😂
Totally! That was clear from fired engineer David Lochridge's testimony. Tony Nissen was Stockton Rush's right hand man and totally loyal to him. He and Rush were one voice in dismissing Lochridge;s safety concerns about Titan, and shutting him out of all meetings/discussions on its development. Nissen was just as bad as Rush! Nissen has changed his tune since leaving the company and obviously, since the disaster. He's a self serving weasel.
YES Tony Nissen’s testimony was so off-putting, awkward, and infuriating I had to stop watching it. The full thing is on the US Coast Guard TH-cam. His whole testimony seemed to have two goals: 1) I’m actually super smart, everyone! 2) I never thought this was safe either! The reality is he wasn’t a licensed engineer, he had zero experience building submarines, and he also brushed off David Lochridge’s concerns.
Great breakdown, especially on overall engineering. As an ME, I can relate to much of what you say. Sadly, us Engineers are often overlooked, and out-voted by the "bean counters". Then when a failure occurs, we are asked what we did wrong....
I wish this could be aired prime time cable as this is the best balance of information and length of anything available at this time. Excellent content
4 km That is very deep. A human would be crushed down to the size of a hotdog faster than an explosion. And seeing as they were 4 times deeper than Henry's Law would require, at that depth the air inside of the vessel would not have even formed a bubble. Even the air itself would have been instantly absorbed into the water.
I just wanted to say that I've clicked a lot of these kinds of videos recently. I thought this was just another click bait. I was so wrong, I loved the video and learned a ton. Fantastic work.
I have watched a ton of these videos over the last year and the amazing thing to me as NON-engineer is everyone keeps talking about this as an engineering problem. Take it from the mouth of someone who knows nothing about your field. There was NO ENGINEERING going on! THAT was the problem.
@@Longjohnsilver58 yea, it is very apparent you’re a non-engineer if you think they brought a submersible to the Titanic multiple times with, “NO ENGINEERING going on”. It’s a leadership problem.
And if the business major starts to learn, the accountant will point out how much it costs and the actuary will project cost and probability of failure and the lawyer will advocate a liability release to cover it. Then the best engineer(s) will quit because they can find a better job.
Boy Howdy! Retired 77 yr.old mech eng. here. You knock your butt off for an outfit, put 'em in the market and then are thrown out 'cause you won't lie about the product.
As someone who worked with carbon fibre in the automotive manufacturing industry, it's so damn wild to me that the sound warning system wasn't just instantly laughed out. With the depth that thing was going to, and the sheer amount of time it takes to get to the bottom and come back up? I just don't understand how an "early warning system" would have done literally anything other than tell you you're screwed. Carbon fibre doesn't give many warnings, and the warnings it would give aren't the sort you can just casually sit with for another 4hrs or however long it takes to get back up to the surface. I'd speculate any small failure would make the sub even harder to surface too. Once the fibres start to weaken, that's added water weight, making the fibre less bouyant., Seems like Stockton got his own way for much of this design, no matter how stupid some of the ideas were.
The sound system was laughed at by anyone outside the company who looked knew anything and looked at it. It was basically there to help Stockton get through the loophole of bringing tourists down. They weren't tourists, they were 'mission specialists' he gave someone a walkthrough and told them to watch the system monitor and they were counted as someone performing a role during the trip.
@@chrisblake4198 The entire sub was laughed at by anyone outside the company, and even some in it (who wer ethen fired). I don't think the sensors helped with any loopholes tbh, at least I've not seen evidence of such yet, I imagine they were simply to give a false sense of security. I'm just surprised the sound sensors got pastt the first concept, but I suppose Stockton ensured he surrounded himself with young folk who were more worried about losing their job and lawsuits than questioning him.
@@CheezMonsterCrazy "Oh goodness me, my glass jar has begun cracking at these deep depths, let me just begin the 2+hr ascent. I'm sure the glass will hold and the cracks will stop and won't cause any issues. Glass absolutely isn't known for it's shattering properties or fast failure or anything"
The acoustic early warning system thing was obviously a failure, everyone who had been in that sub at any depth has said there were loud cracking sounds, and yet the early warning system wasn’t warning them?
As a certified pest control technician with zero engineering experience I still know that if you can't afford the testing and classing you can't afford to do the project. And it ought to be illegal to take paying passengers on a vessel that isn't specifically certified for the intended use. Gross neglegense is in fact illegal if I'm not mistaken. Maybe someday underwater vessels can be 3D printed/welded so you get a hull with known qualities.
@@fishmonger6879 I'm poor but I know better than to get on a rig like that. I've made enough stuff to recognize a bad design and that one was obviously max level sketchy. Carbon fiber isn't for compression like that. Connecting it to rigid metal and compressing it wasn't logical.
Its not so simple. A carbon mast (sailboat), can take serious compressive loads. Its the radial compressive cyclic loading of a cylinder thats not favourable.....
@@FJB2020 care to make a guess what the U stands for? It was built in the 70s and launched in 83, not the 60s, and it wasn't a pressure vessel. Structural carbon fiber for propulsion and instrumentation, basically a tethered torpedo ROV.
@chrisblake4198 Yes, it was a pressure vessel, and while Unmanned, it ran off its own power and did dives up to 20,000 feet.. Stockton used the build data from the AUSS for his project.. Sorry, the late 70s, not the 60s..
Having welded and worked with metal for several years in the industrial maintenance field, my jaw hit the floor when I saw carbon fiber mated to titanium with epoxy. My first thought was dissimilar materials expanding at different rates. How could a supposedly educated person create such a glaring problem knowing the very wide window of differentiation in temperatures and pressures over many duty cycles, let alone the thousands of pounds of psi exerted everywhere when at the depth of HMS Titanic? Perhaps his aerospace engineer mindset didn't grasp vacuum over intense hydraulic pressure. (Throw his obvious arrogance in and it's a dangerous concoction.)
As I have gotten older I have had some problems with claustrophobia. I would need to have Valium administered thru an IV to get into one of those submersibles.
@@user990077 yeah I know that but they usually administer orally before IV except in emergency sits. So if your going to go into a confined space I'd think you'd prepare... By taking it orally beforehand. However the real issue here is getting in that sub when you have claustrophobia and I'd not full stop, even without claustrophobia. Thanks for your reply although I'm still trying to figure out which bit went over my head lol
In germany (and probably elsewhere we have this saying "Wir irren uns empor" which could be translated to "we err upward". I love that quote for science and mankind as a whole. This incident just doesn't fit at all. Way too many voices of concern were ignored.
@@Helix_22 Basically it means that we learn from our mistakes. Each error we make contributes to our knowledge of how to do things correctly. So the Oceangate incident goes against this notion by making the mistakes of the past and expecting different results.
This is probably one of the best videos I've seen on this subject. You made things very easy to understand and it wasn't the exact same stuff I've heard over and over about this.
Hello Your awesome. I am a carpenter (always wanted to be an engineer) and even though I don't build superstructures and such. I deal with materials and really appreciate your ability to tell the story and inform.
RIP to the victims……But this entire situation was absolutely ABSURD….anyone with a “common sense” approach understands that diving to a depth of 12,500 feet in a submersible is EXTREMELY dangerous and requires near perfectly constructed submersibles…..and that requires testing….This situation was easily preventable and the simple lesson is don’t skirt testing and regulations
If you've ever seen Martial artists break a single brick...You'll know they put half of it over a ledge. It acts like a fulcrum and concentrates the force to make it break at the edge. That's what happened at the edge of the titanium and carbon fibre.
It was most certainly destroyed via implosion, the debris in the thumbnail for this vid was the outter shroud of the submersible, no the pressure vessel. And the reason why you don’t see the pressure vessel is because it was imploded to bits.
I was a Submariner in the US Navy. I served on two different classes of submarines. My first boat was a Thresher/Permit class boat. For those that do not know the USS Thresher was the lead boat of the the Thresher class until she was lost on 10APR1963. Due to her loss the SUBSAFE program was started. It lead to many changes in how submarines were built and repaired. It saved many lives over the years. The engineering that went into the program and safety features and standards that were created were for a reason. When I hear of the the things that were by passed in creating the Titan submersible, I just shake my head and ask WHY?
Did you know Titan had been struck by lightning? I listened to Nissen speak for the full interview and that part was new to me. He said it cracked after that and they fired him when he told them it had to be scrapped and dove anyway.
@@mylesgray3470 The fact that Rush started having the ship TOW the submersible (on its launch platform) behind the ship for over a hundred miles instead of commissioning a ship large enough to carry the submersible on its deck until reaching the dive site tells me that Rush was cutting costs in the most dangerous way possible.
Exactly, the video's conclusion is ridiculous. Five people didn't have to die to tell us what was already known - and had even been warned about by maritime experts. OceanGate was a cost cutting cowboy outfit, which put profit before people, and was playing an outrageous game of deep sea Russian roulette with human lives. There should have been laws in place to protect the (super-rich) public, and keep them out of the clutches of reckless, exploitative mavericks like Stockton Rush.
2:55 and yet they did it anyways and here we are, over a year later and they’re still stumbling over their words trying to make more excuses to try to duck more blame that is rightfully theirs.
The sad part of this story, is that the owner of that company took tourists. They should have done tests and they should not have sold "tickets" to innocent people. Make mistakes -- that is how we learn, but don't take others with you unnecessarily.
The one thing about Titan that truly amazes me is the acoustic monitoring system. It listens for cracks in the carbon fiber hull, fine. Yet everyone who ever dove in the craft could clearly hear the hull cracking, including Rush, who brushed aside any concerns as it being “normal “. I honestly would trust the very audible cracking as a clear indication of potential failure; micro fractures that are inaudible, less so. A loud crack is going to get anyone’s attention over, dare I say, “a machine that goes PING!”.
In the hearing it was revealed that the acoustic monitoring sensors had data for crack sounds on nearly every single dive, however with each successive dive the frequency and intensity of the cracks lessened. Tony probably likened this to breaking in a baseball glove, they really thought carbon fiber would just "settle in" and be good for 1,000 more cycles. 😅
@@kudjo24 I read that also. The new release of information from the Coast Guard shows them speculating that the cracking sounds were caused by bubbles in the adhesive layers and the uncurled adhesive layers actually slipping over each other due to the immense pressure squeezing the hull. The acoustic monitoring showed that after dive 80, when the loud crack was noticed by the crew, the normal phase of micro fractures during diving and surfacing detected suddenly increased during ascending. They said it should have been a red flag of potential failure of the hull, but that data was ignored. I truly believe that Rush may have had some death wish to go down in history under some tragic circumstances, in light of all this. Rush was as reckless as the poor chap in France who insisted that his NEW parachute design was so much better than the existing ones that he was going to jump off the Eiffel Tower in it to prove his point. The film of his jump shows his friends begging him not to as he stands on the rail with them waiving to him to get down and he jumped anyway. He made history all right also!
For those in the UK, the point around the 1:50 mark is dealt with largely by what's called the ALARP principle. It's enshrined in UK law as a result of the Edwards vs The national coal board case. The Titan sub is an excellent case study of how not to demonstrate safety in a high integrity system.
The engineering profession needs to as a profession form an organization that can back individual engineers when they have a crucial safety issue like this... just being fired or quitting, silencing them, should not be an option. The profession should pool their resources to have leverage over regulation to allow for this intervention, and employ even legal action... lobby to get laws to allow them to intervene. Individual engineers would be resistant to blow that horn, but it should exist as an option.
A disaster? 5 people did die tragically. Car wrecks routinely kill 5 or more people, we don't call those things "disasters". Is it a disaster because the victims were mostly rich?????
Its a disaster because this isn't a thing that regularly happens in the submersible industry anymore. We have an understanding that cars are dangerous, underregulated, cost reduced, and operated by underqualified morons. The same is not true of submarines, which we've engineered and regulated to be even safer than airplanes, much less cars.
@@CheezMonsterCrazy I've traveled aboard several tourist submarines, you're right, they are very safe and comfortable. But, this was a private company, which required everyone to sign waivers. They understood the risks. More to the point, these hearings won't prevent anyone from doing this again. They were operating on the high seas, well outside anyone's jurisdiction. Which anyone can do, if they have the money.
Yeah....... you are misunderstanding what explosion means. Just because it isn't obliterated doesn't mean it didn't implode. It definitely imploded. Just not the way that they thought it would!
i think the biggest lesson we can learn from this is, if your project is ‘too expensive’ and ‘going to take too long’, then you need to TAKE that time and SAVE UP for it. not break rules and regulations or use ‘cheaper’ materials that don’t hold up. ESPECIALLY when other people’s lives are on the line!!! this project was reckless and could have been avoided.
In stress analysis, you would use strain gauges to monitor stresses in a structure. I can't believe that there seems to be nothing installed on the structure to measure the load on the carbon fiber cylinder. You would have known way before the implosion that the hull was going critical.
I agree. They did use strain gauges for some of the qualification testing but they depended solely on the acoustic feedback in practice for some reason.
A simple daily examination might have told them that. Using ultrasound would also have been a noninvasive method of looking for potentially dangerous delamination. Even if they'd checked it daily, carbon fiber is made to hold pressure IN, but it doesn't do a good job of holding pressure OUT.
I'm sorry you lost me with the "oh this is a frontier this kind of failure is normal" this is the guy who had an open disdain for safety regulations. Everyone already knew this was a bad idea! We knew this is not how you make a safe sub! Stockton Rush is a lesson in hubris, a lesson in what happens when you decide on no foundation that you know better than the experts. He killed himself for his ego and greed and what's worse is he took several people including a teenager with him
What is with the thumb nail? Of course the tail section of the sub was not part of the pressure section of the sub... Why did you make your thumb nail misleading?
Excellent video. I'm glad I stumbled on your channel today. You gave a clear, accurate and informative rundown from the perspective of a professional. Thank you.
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You can stop at comparing traffic safety and submarine safety. You can also stop comparing a three hour walkon the road to jet-skiing off Mt Everest. Personally, I don't care about jet-skiing off Everest.
My question is what would it take to safely put a manned submersible at that depth repeatedly (say ten times)?
I am not sure it is needed, but I agree with your assessment that people will keep trying until they find that magic cost/value ratio that makes it commercially viable. Then they will do it more. :)
Where's the link to the analysis mentioned in the video?
Ah so my year of defending the carbon fiber hull wasn't for nothing. Everyone was wrong but me.
@@digiryde A roughly spherical pressure vessel is a good start. Using materials with strong compressive strength is as well. Carbon fiber is good at containing pressure as long as the pressure within is greater than the outside environment, not as good at resisting crushing from differential pressure.
Sadly, this isn’t an example of learning from our mistakes. This is an example of ignoring what has been learned from past mistakes. Almost everyone familiar with deep sea submersibles or even pressure vessels in general knew this craft was poorly designed for the task and was unsafe. This is a classic example of an egomaniac who refuses to learn from the past.
Best comment around. Da Vinci gave too much respect to Stockton that he did not deserve, he didn't push new frontiers. He bypassed what was learned by smarter people from him in a effort to defy nature and aggrandize himself. He died as a result, but not only him.
Agreed, best comment. Everyone with the expertise knew the sub would fail. There was no innovation, from Stockton’s venture. Just recklessness, and how regulations are written in blood.
Which is why none of the certification bodies wanted to be associated with the design
Previous clients on the doomed vessel mentioned they heard what sounded like cracking noises. Seems obvious those were more than mere noises at this point but the graphite hull being damaged.
Bored rich narcissists, always 'innovating' things that already exist but in ways so dangerous and/or stupid that professionals long since found better ways.
But since they have the money, ergo they are smarter by their vapid metric, all these oppressive regulators are just stiffeling their genius.
(As opposed to trying to keep their brand of entitled stupidity from taking out innocents.)
The reason I quit the engineering profession was because the folks holding the money hired me only because the law required my stamp on the drawings. They would build things differently from what I had designed. Often the choice wasn't a big deal, and most of what I did was of low risk to life and property (AC systems for buildings, including high rises). But, some of it was vital to life safety, e.g. pressurization of the elevator shafts and fire exit stairwells. They have to be pressurized enough to keep smoke out but not make the doors impossible to open. It is very difficult to do right and was not well done sometimes. Eventually the building gets certified, but it was after I stopped receiving reports and the latest test. If things later went south with a fire in the building and people dying due to smoke in the stairway, I'd be on the liability hook for something that I didn't agree with and never formally signed off on, mainly because my engineering stamp was on the initial drawings.
I decided that I was working in the wrong industry, considered other engineering areas, then changed to a completely different career. I've felt much better about my control over my professional life ever since.
Did you watch OceanGate's fired chief engineer David Lochridge's evidence to the current Coastguard public inquiry this week? You'd have found it fascinating, and I'm sure many aspects of what he had to say would resonate with your own experiences.
Your reason for quitting the engineering field sounds familiar.
It rates right up there when, as a life long mechanic, I get a call from a person. Often just an acquaintance but on occasion could be someone I consider a good friend. Anyhow the person will call and describe their problem and then ask my opinion. I may very well know almost exactly what the problem is and how to fix it. I would then go on to describe said failure and the proper way, or sometimes ways of going about fixing same problem. 2 days later I find out that person did every single thing I told them not to do and pretty much took my advice and threw it out the window when in fact I was giving them valuable advice how to solve their problem and did so free of charge. What does the person do? The exact opposite. Why even ask me in the first place if you are not going to follow my experienced advice?
I've known frustrated engineers who have said the same things as you mentioned.
Over 30 years ago a good friend was relatively new to the field but was sharp and his abilities were to be trusted. He called me up one day to vent, he was so mad and frustrated! His small team were in charge of designing the front suspension for in believe was then the soon to be new Mark 8 Lincoln. A suspension component engineer! His whole team already had successful accomplishments. Suddenly they find themselves with a new "boss". What this woman said was final. Turns out she didn't even know what a shock absorber was let alone it's purpose. This was the head of the front suspension design for a new Lincoln. I felt his pain. Took him 2 days of weekend drinking to get over it and go in Monday and just do what he was supposed to do and deal with it best he could. He left the company not too long after that.
@@williamstamper442 We call those people askholes.
@@williamstamper442 Sounds like DEI raised it's ugly head on that one. I've recently retired from corporate recruiting having specialized in Engineering and IT applications. In general Engineering Managers were my favorite clients as they were by necessity the most grounded in objective reality. One of them always referred to HR as "Neither Human nor a Resource". :D
@williamstamper442 Yeah my high-school bff is aero astro engineer and he's quit because they kept ignoring his work to keep a certain future military vehicle safe. Like why?
Even though a lot of leaders don’t like it, always listen to that single person that doesn’t praise you all the time. Time spent with the yes-people is just wasted time.
I work in an industry where the decision makers (not the engineers) use that argument: It hasn’t failed yet, so it won’t ever fail.
Most leaders love to pretend they are god. Constant praise is one of them.
Lessons learned from the "Führerbunker" . . .
This is why dictators ultimately fail. Nobody is willing to tell him something that might upset him.
LoL this is how Sony lost 400 millions 😂
I’m an engineer. Some of my grad school work involved carbon composites. The fact that they “hand glued” the metal ends to the carbon tube in a dirty open air warehouse is all you need to know. They couldn’t even take the time to do a proper mixing process, use a clean room or at the very least a positive pressure room with minimal precautions like tyvek overalls and hair netting. That one video where they are so proud of themselves gluing the two halves together would be like a nightmare of getting caught outside in your dirty underpants during rush hour to any real composites professional. Not to mention other details such that it wasn’t inspected with NDT which most certainly does exist for something like that, the pre-preg they used was expired or outside of the useful window, and the layup wasn’t vacuumed during curing… those are just the surface level mistakes that we know of, imagine all the stuff under the surface.
I'm not an engineer, but the one I know was freaking out watching that part of the vid where he touches the area to be glued with his bare hand.
@@dyslexiccowoom3991 that sounds idiotic to me. I don't know submarine engineering and was surprised to read the above comment because I would not think gluing would require a clean room. Yes clean but the comment made it sound like a computer chip clean room which is insane clean. I have used epoxies and glues and most are just mixed up casually so I was surprised to see it needed such high standards. Yes the touching with bare hands sounds crazy as it would leave oils and I 3d print and when my kids touch the print bed I tell them please don't and then have to clean it thoroughly with alcohol. So I could see that level of clean mattering but never thought clean room hair net would be so critical. I would picture a solvent to clean contact surfaces and precise measuring of the epoxy so it had the proper mixture. Anyways this whole thing seems to be a crazy project. Maybe this sub would be good for shallow dives but he set his sights way too high.
As a Tool&Diemaker, I LOATHE the engineer.... unless they came up from the trade. Nothing personal, we need engineers, just wish they had aome humility.✌️
@@jayman912
after the mixing phase, the epoxy needs to be vacuumized (i'm not native but pretty sure it is called "degassing". to remove air bubbles from the mixture), even for home purposes imho, just a good manner
@@BearBig70 As an engineer who has been through every level, I agree haha
When i worked for ensign we built a drilling rig. No blueprints. Two other guys and myself did all the hydraulics. After the project was near completion it was in tear down phase to be moved to its first well site. The procedure to lower the rig down was to lower the sub floor then lower the mast. I was working on another rig beside it on the day my friend was lowering the sub floor. The steel supports on the sub floor buckled (poor engineering) and one side of the sub floor fell a good 6 to 10 feet leaving the rig tilting a good 30 degrees. I watched the mast starting to fall towards me standing on the neighbouring sub floor. I though i was going to get crushed, the mast was heading right for the rig i was standing on. By some miracle the mast didnt break and settled at this new angle. The hydraulic rams that raised sub floor were completely sheered off with our hydraulic system pumping oil everywhere. There was supposed to be an emergency kill switch on ground level to shut off the hydraulic pumps but the electrians had not completed the wiring yet😅. I explained to the site supervisor that once the hydraulic system tank emptied all of the oil the pumps will continue to run( they were supplied power by the on board generators which were also running) he told me not to worry about it as it was too dangerous to go up there and shut them down. I explained to him once that oil is gone those pump will cavitate and will continue to run and catch fire, and the 3000 liters of oil on the ground will turn this site into an inferno. I told him that pump must be shutdown. While all the higher ups were telling me not worry about it and just let it fail, i was adamant that a fire will make this situation much worse. Ultimately the supervisor agreed and went up there himself to shutdown the pumps and the generators. The yard was shutdown for a few weeks so they could asses how to lower the mast safely. Once it was lowered all but 6 of 40, of the 2 inch mast bolts were sheered off when the mast fell, it was literally hanging on by luck. To this day i feel like if a fire had started it would have wekened the steel and it would have fallen over onto the other rig. I got no recognition for this or thanks, i probably saved them millions of dollars.
I salute you sir 🫡
@@davidpurll4570 And unfortunately no with the means to financially reward you ever will.
@@squ1r7y well done
The company owner is on record practically bragging that he was dodging regulations by only operating in the open ocean.
Ocean Gate, sort of in the name describing the scandal brewing.
@@RwP223😮
It should've been named BrainCellGate. 😮🤐
@@anjou6497 all that was left after scraping out the hull
@@paarker they might have been ok if it was an actual half way Decent controller. Both the US and Royal air force's use Xbox controllers with their drones. as it was it was a bottom line $9.99 Logitech controller.
it imploded. the part you see on the floor is the motor and all that stuff. the carbon fiber tube is almost completely gone in a thousand pieces along with whatever meat as left. fat they glued carbon fiber to metal and thought that was safe shows the man was a moron.
The fact that the implosion started at the front means that the “meat” could’ve been pressed into the rear dome. This would explain the “presumed remains”. Essentially human goo.
The carbon fiber hull hadn't even been heat/pressure cured. It was bagged and dried. An absurdity.
I've got a prosthetic leg made of carbon fibre and metal. Works great and I wouldn't ever want to go back to the fibreglass and wood prosthetics that I grew up with. I've had a prosthetic delaminate while I was running. It happened fast and sounded like a gunshot. How anyone in their right mind would step foot in OceanGate blows my mind.
The founder didn't want sub experts working on the design because they had European ancestry. Pretty sad this how decisions were made. You'd think you'd want the most qualified working on it.
@@AWriterWandering This. At first I thought it was absurd given the preliminary simulations and the mostly agreed upon style of implosion, but now after seeing the actual wreck I am willing to bet there's a lot of human goo at the bottom of the rear dome. The way it failed is clear. Instead of failing directly in the middle crushing them evenly all around into oblivion, they were instead instantly hydraulically pressed into the back of the rear dome... Jesus.
The worst kind of business owner is the one who thinks he is a genius, an inventor, an explorer and a visionary instead of striving to be an engineer and a rationalist
Sadly a visionary attracts more funding than a rationalist.
Absolutely 💯
He was such a genius he rallied against certification.
Sound exactly like Elon.
The iron man movies really fucked up a generation of weirdos with too much money
Exactly
1986, i watched the shuttle explode on tv. It was so cold in NC our water froze. Even as a kid I couldn't understand why they was launching in such cold. Even then I knew things that are designed to work in hot conditions don't usually work so well in cold conditions. O- Rings get stiff. And go throw a Frisbee in 20°f weather , let it hit something, mine exploded, I could have carried it home in a coffee cup. The pieces were tiny most about 1"x1" a few 1"x2" and 2"x2", the physical world is amazing when you pay closer attention . And always ask TWO questions, WHY and HOW ❓ things are truly amazing!
so join delete me so they can delete you🤪🤪
The root of the problem is that we have non-technical leaders making technical decisions without deferring to experts. If you don't work in a technical role, you're not an expert in technical matters, even if you're a technical leader. So we have PFAS and many other toxins like E250 nitrites in our air, water and food, deadly 3 ton "self-driving" cars, addictive prescriptions, and failing public services in the "richest" country in the world. I hate leaders, especially American leaders. They're the absolute worst and most arrogant.
Scientist are getting the kick here in New Zealand too. We have had a few leaders whose souls are shaped to serve - Jacinda Ardern the most recent. But things swing quickly and right now our government gave tax cuts to the rich and landlords at about $3B, funded by equivalent cuts to education, health, welfare. All against official advice and not the same as election promises. They cancelled a $550M inter-island ferry contract with Hyundai, a reputationally embarrassing move for us as a nation. Two of the three ferries here have lost power adrift at sea in the last few months - the ferries are an economic essential for this nation, fundamental infrastructure. They have made redundant 5000 or 6000 public servants. We're a population of 5M, so that's quite a few in the scheme of things. They've slashed anti-tobacco legislation, rolled back automatic gun regulations, and opened the doors for mining and drilling. And they are racist in trying to undermine and weaken the constitutional basis of the colonial relationship with the original inhabitants, Maori, who are still dishonestly dispossessed of land they never gave away. They have sought removal of Maori language from government, and removed funding in schools (foreboding, Orwellian). This is Atlas-style sticking the finger to the population. You can tell, I'm upset with the greed. Sorry to rant, but I was triggered by the number of scientists - particularly those dealing with climate and environmental management, being fired here. Our leaders are actively removing obstructions to speeding up the funnel of money to the few. Age-old battle.
@@HowievYT I feel you! Sadly, this is so true all over the world. Money is so much more important to some - unfortunately mostly the powerful - people who don't only have no BAD conscience, but appearently none at all... Quick profit over common sense and expertise, betrayal instead of decency... 😔
This is the same trend you see with every engineering disaster like this where it's not a single point of failure. It's a long chain of improper materials, insufficient analysis, skipped over testing, and disregarded warnings before an actual emergency happens.
A k a "Das Emmenthaler käse prinzip". Englishspoken people know it as "The Swiss Cheese Principle". A lot of little things happen that all contribute to the final disaster, and it could have been stopped, up until the final mistake.
When an aircraft disaster happens we cannot know before the formal investigation what was the problem. But we can be reasonably sure (not 100%, but "almost") that if a boss or an owner goes public within a day of the accident saying that it was the pilot's fault, then it wasn't.
Ok, sometimes the pilot is *partly* responsible, but often it's the little things before, like cutting corners, or pure laziness of others, including the big boss tanking up too little fuel before the flight... (And yes, he was on that unfortunate flight.) A lot of little holes in the cheese, all hung up on the same stick.
In the airliner business it's gone so far that somebody said that the biggest remaining threat to safety is individual pilots who can't stand it that they have to follow well tested safety rules. Just like Mr Oceangate. cheers / CS
An emergency is survivable, a stupid egotistical man definitely not. Money does not mean you haven brains or morals.
And at the core, an idiot who thinks their money makes them more qualified than the experts.
boeing is currently in its own phase
why was he allowed to kill others with him.
Im gonna set up a fire alert system on my house, it will alert me to fire after the house is burnt down. It's genius. Thanks for the idea Stockton
Same thing as "I am going to hear a fire alarm but i wont listen to it until im dead :) "
or The Blast Wave detector from nuclear explosion
Years ago worked in the fire alarm field for just over 10 years. There are basically 2 types of fire notification, first is life safety, second is property protection. Obviously life safety takes precedence over any other notification. You would think on a submarine any kind of life safety notification would take a freaking high level of importance. Fire alarm systems have quite a bit of redundancy built into their designs so that if one system fails there are still other systems in place to notify of a condition again with life safety taking precedence. If I was to go visit the Titanic in a sub, that thing better have ALL of the life safety notification built in, and it better be tested and work! Id want to see that first hand before going for a dive.
None of this would ever happen, meaning the part about me going for a dive in a submarine but for those who would, id like to think their standards would be as high as everyone else on the life safety part. When the owner of the company tends to blow off that part I'm pretty sure that's when a person says "yeah thanks but no thanks".
@@Tobez ah, the old Boy Scout “weather rock” method of fire detection, seems valid
@@williamstamper442 yapyapyap
listen to engineers. that's the lesson.
very true!
Facts. Not listening to an engineer is like not listening to an author of a book about their book. 💀
@@TwoBitDaVinci thanks for showing how you dont understand how implosions work!
@@danquaylesitsspeltpotatoe8307 Also that given the complete reconnaissance video and a thumbnail of the imploded pressure vessel was available if he had so desired, it proves that he also cannot identify something imploded, although he did correctly identify one of the quadrillion objects on earth that are also not imploded. 😂
@@kdawson020279 100 other people have talked about the implosion, he was talking about the separation of the interface between carbon and titanium
Mr Stockton murdered everyone on board due to his pride, ego, and “I know better than thou” attitude. I can’t even begin to imagine the horror of everyone on board when this submersible imploded. The horror, the pain…etc. Lord have mercy.
He did warn them tho. That's why none of the family members are suing for wrongful dëath.
The implosion happened faster than the human brain can process information. They didn’t know anything happened
@@The-one-and-only-Fruitcake : At least there’s comfort in that.
@@theworldtomorrow3960 still tragic, but at least they didn’t suffer
@@theworldtomorrow3960 I believe it was said that he knew there was an issue and dumped weight. I'm guessing shortly there after, in a nano second, it was all over. This would've happened faster then your brain can compute. Imagine it like this. The deeper you go, greater the pressure. In this scenario, water wants the air gone and wants to take its place. Every air molecule in your body is violently replaced by water. Skin, fluids, blood, bones etc, this is why if any remains is found, it will just be a goo. Like putting drops of food coloring in water. This is extremly violent and happens in nano seconds. So fast in fact that as the vessel compresses before the a tual implosion, the air inside becomes extremly hot, yes, you burn, but for a nano second. Yes, you are a crisp potatoe chip in a nano second and then immediatly and violently destroyed. You know nothing of what happened.
I'm a dual tradesman in heavy industry.
The ONLY time i trust engineers is literally when they are raising their concerns.
I'll down tools in a heartbeat, against my supervisors wishes until that engineer confirms I won't be in danger
There was an executive, the head of Engineering at the company I work for infamously said that he hated Engineers because they always told him why things couldn't be done.
It was Morgan or Rockefeller or someone equally accomplished in business who once said, "I don't have lawyers and accountants to tell me what I can do. I have them to find a way to tell me that what I want to do can be legal and profitable".
No successful businessman has a similar saying about engineers.
@@alcampbell5831 engineer’s job is to stay in the envelope. They only push our knowledge of the envelope minimum inner dimension.
@alcampbell5831 I worked QC and quit after 3 years because stupid engineer decided to make a change on a charger I told him would fail, and put a memo saying as such. Lucky for me I forward all my emails to my own server, because sure enough, chargers failed after an hour and he tried to pin it on me. Soon as I saw my email account at work get wiped, I bolted and sent copies company thought they deleted with a warning I'd forward it to their customers if they ever tried that BS again. Ended up working for their competitors.
Was he expecting to be fed the "anything is possible" line like a kid in a Disney film? 😂
Boeing?
It imploded. The white wreckage in the thumbnail is the machinery section, which was designed to operate at ocean pressure so there was nothing to implode. The pressure hull was a separate piece, and you can very, *very* clearly see that it imploded. Scott Manley did a video on this.
We all know.
@@n.j.crawler Apparently not the uploader... Used a misleading thumbnail for some weird reason.
The dude explained this in the video.
@@Helix_22 It was to get you to click on the video and then to comment this exact thing. He wins.
@@Strykenine did you watch the whole video? Or just the thumbnail?
I'm not a physicist or mathematician but I like to make art using acrylic epoxy resin. There is no way I would ever hinge my life on an epoxy window. And when I saw how the carbon fiber was "woven", the seamstress in me said, "HA!"
And when they said they'd navigate based on the crackling sounds and claimed the shattering window was a "warning device" it proved to me that money and degrees isn't a good metric for intelligence.
Aircraft windows are made from plastic. So if you've ever flown, you've already put your life in the hands of plastic.
You cannot survive at the altitude of an aircraft when it's at cruising altitude.
I used nearly a cylinder of propane over the course of about 15-20 minutes to remove two ceramic tiles glued with epoxy. This glue holds tenaciously under high temperature. Then on a cold frosty day I popped off each tile with ease, removing about 200 within a few minutes time. A tiny jolt with the Titan striking the ocean floor at an angle instead of landing level on its platform would have been sufficient to dislodge the titanium cone that was glued with epoxy to the carbon fibre hull. All indications are that failure commenced at that junction. The observation window was rated for 2000 meters, but likely had several times that strength.
people trying to make dreams a reality when they should stay dreams.
the acrylic window is not epoxy. it's acrylic - that's a polymer
There also the problem of flexing. The titanium flexes very differently then carbon fiber and if this isn't accounted for one receives increased load rather then it being evenly disturbed.
Given that we now know it failed near or at the from o ring its likely this was a big factor in a already week area.
Brilliant description of what I call meta-engineering. In engineering school, the primary thing you learn is how to do a proper job of analysis. Some of us were also schooled as a matter of every engineering class, the more important elements of integrity, speaking up when necessary, balancing risk and progress in new endeavors. There is no math for that. But the principles are well established. A significant number of engineers with 10 years or more experience would have done what the chief engineer at Oceangate would have done. He was brilliant. He was balanced and carefully weighed the alternatives. His choice was, I will not go down in the sub. That choice saved his life and his story. The knowledge from his story is invaluable.
Challenger was the first time “normalization of deviation” came to the forefront, which is basically “hey, it didn’t explode last time, so that proves it won’t explode next time.” That is a dangerous game!
Good point about the Challenger disaster.
They were getting pressure from the media and the publicity seeking politicians to launch because they had already scrubbed the launch so many times that week. Everyone got impatient. I saw the pictures of the icicles hanging from parts of the rocket just before they launched. The decision to launch was made by corporate executives, not engineers. Remember, they fired the whole board at Thiokol after the disaster and made the engineer that was trying to stop the launch the head of the company.
Yes, good observation. 👍☕
You think NASA would've learned from that, but 17 years later a chunk of foam strikes Columbia at high speed smashing out a part of the heat shield and dooming 7 more astronauts. Chunks of foam had struck shuttles in the past and the attitude was "Hey, it didn't hurt anything the last time"
Underwater russian roulette
1. Carbon fiber has high tensile strength but not high torsional strength
2. The pressure differential at ‘Titanic depth’ is over 370 times GREATER than the pressure differential experienced by an aircraft if it went into Outer Space
- a vessel under pressure experiences torsional stress, while an airplane tends to experience tension stress
3. Even if the above is not enough to deter one from diving in a carbon fiber cylinder, ask “How is the carbon fiber cylinder affixed to the titanium end caps?” - the answer ALONE should be enough to deter one from diving 4000 M in that thing! (the answer to that question is: “We GLUED them together.” I cannot see how anybody in their right mind would dive to a pressure over 5,500 PSI in a vessel that was GLUED TOGETHER! Good grief! One does not have to be an ME to figure that out!
@@kenday7942 It is the poor compressive strength of carbon fibre laminate not the torsional strength.
Torsional forces are twisting forces not compressive.
The glued together is not the problem it is what is glued together. My experience with a composite bulkhead glued into a composite tube and placed under extreme pressure suggest that glued together with both composite items is fine. In the cases I have seen it was the removable aluminum bulkhead that seems to be a bigger problem of interfaces.
@@kensmith5694 Titanium end rings glued to a carbon fiber cylinder is exactly what doomed this vessel.
@@jeffro221 yeah, simulations that take into account the glue show that the vessel didnt even implode, the front Just separated and everyone got squished into the back,
@@xxizcrilexlxx1505 I can believe it wasn't the cylinder that imploded and then popped the end bells off. I have always thought most likely one of the glued joints failed and popped it's end bell loose and, poof, instant destruction. The cylinder probably deformed in the front enough to breech the joint and then whamo.
my buddy used to do this funny trick where he would very carefully stand on an aluminum can so that it didn't compress. then with the slightest of pressure, he would just graze his finger across the center and the can would instantly crush down.
I keep thinking that the whole vessel was nothing more than a big aluminum can.
It's a wonder that the sub didn't have cameras inside to record the experience for the people as they reacted, sending their informations to a protected storage unit. It would have so helped to determine where things went wrong too.
you only want to see the toothpaste...
Not really. Sending wireless transmissions through that much water requires very low frequencies, which can't send much data. I'm not even sure if you COULD stream video from the bottom of the ocean.
@@angolin9352 Well no-one said anything about sending wireless.
@@Spacecookie- How else are you going to send camera data in case the sub fails and falls down to the bottom of the ocean? It's not like you can retrieve it after the fact. Are you gonna bring a 12,500 foot cable with you?
@@angolin9352 There are these things colloquially known as black boxes.
It's important as a lesson to not trust billionaires with engineering.
Everyone, EVERYONE, in the sub industry TOLD him repeatedly it wasn't safe, the carbon fiber x titanium build wasn't safe, the shape wasn't safe. Everyone told him and he said "f you guys, you're fired, i know better" and went down anyway. He lied to his engineers apparently and I'll bet he lied to the passengers too.
This isn't new tech anymore. We know how to build these to work, but the physics wasn't cool looking enough or some garbage for this idiot.
There's nothing to learn here because we already KNEW it was a trash build and all the ways it could and would fail.
Thank you for continuing to pursue this story. Over a year after the tragedy, the story is just as compelling as the day it happened.
My dad was an aerospace engineer who specialized in composites, starting early in the 60’s. It was lighter, stronger and better suited to low atmospheric pressures.than metals. Perfect for space but completely unsuited to the insane pressures at depths. Its strength is that it stenches, it’s weakness is that it cannot stand too much compression. It is the exact WRONG tool/material for the job. He would have been appalled by Stockton Rush.
The company I work for does composite pressure housings for under the sea. This is done for technical reasons not because composites are the easiest to use for the job.
@@kensmith5694 Right, its a materials compromise. Sometimes you need to use a material that's inferior in one aspect but superior in another. Unfortunately in the case of the Titan, their choices were based on cost reduction rather than technical constraints.
As a structural materials engineer, I found your explanation insightful, especially regarding the materials used in the Titan submersible. Although I’m not a mechanical engineer or submarine specialist, the choice of materials concerned me even before the accident. Specifically, the combination of carbon fiber composite and titanium, with their vastly different moduli of elasticity, raised questions about the potential for differential thermal expansion and contraction under varying temperature and pressure conditions. This mismatch could lead to significant shear stresses at the material interfaces, as you’ve described. Thank you 🙏🏽
As I licensed millwright I'd like to believe even the average person would see this was a dister in the making. It's not that the Titan failed, it's that it lasted as long as it did. Stockton effed around and find out.
Manley went into the differential of the expansion coefficients in more detail. Both are excellent videos.
I think that's only because of the way the two materials were matted to each other. If this was a singular structure like a fully composite wrapped tube with ports for entry. It likely wouldn't have failed at that point, and an FEA analysis could have shown that being the weakest point.
Exactly. And one doesn't even have to be an expert to realize that. I'm a biologist with a measly one-or two-semester physics background, and it was intuitively clear to me that there is no way materials as fundamentally different as titanium and a carbon fiber/epoxy mix could be a perfect match in terms of their expansion/contraction rates etc. by sheer coincidence.
The Titanic was supposed to be a warning about our ego when it comes to engineering feats. The Titan submersible was supposed to be the reminder. And if what I'm reading about other trips to the Titanic is accurate, neither of those messages have been heard
Hear, hear! Cautionary tales are called that for a reason.
@@brianalambert1192
Titanic = fail
Titan = fail
So what did they name the newest sub?
Triton 4000 🤦♂️
Tri = 3
3 accidents before we are going to learn?
@@Aaron_Hanson Yes well the issue is also that spherical deep dive craft do much better re the dispersal of pressure build up. Cylindrical was crazy, in such a small tin-can, unprofessional sub such as the Titan.
Another sad comparison with Titan & Titanic is that sub-standard parts were used to cost-cut. ( E.g: the cheapo rivets used on the Titanic allowed the iceberg to rip her sides apart quite easily. Hmm. 😮☕🥀
@@anjou6497 my point was directed at the similarities in the vessel names.
Tri = 3 and they’re going to send a third vessel to the deep ocean. I wouldn’t be in that vessel even if it was rated for ten miles depth and you payed me 100 million dollars!
Not with the name Triton. Name it Implosion and I’d go for a million dollars 😂
@@Aaron_Hanson haha! Agree, me neither, not even with flippers. .. Or Tri-AGAIN. 😖🩵
you would run tests until failure and ensure that you had at least 1.4-2x factor of safety at the pressure the vessel is designed for. Regulations are too time consuming? Curious if they would now argue for a do over.
agreed and well said... their argument is that it would be so cost prohibitive that it would have made it impossible to go to market... but that's a really slippery slope
The timeframe Patrick Lahey gave today for certification for a "never before done" type of vehicle was less than what it took OceanGate to get a submersible built to the point of attempting to test anyway. The whole idea that certification was too time consuming or too expensive was complete BS. He just didn't want to have to collaborate with any certification agency because it was his way or the highway and that wouldn't work for certification.
@@bees5461 Certification is time consuming and expensive; but not as expensive as the cost of lives.
As you say, certification is something the owner just didn't want to do and that's the only real reason. I wonder if they thought they were going to go bankrupt and instead of getting new funding sources, he took cost cutting measures.
he could not afford to build another one so if they tested to destruction he would lose everything. so this endeavor should never have been started.
@@ronblack7870 Seems he liked to compare himself to Musk - but Musk's rockets and cars are incredibly safe, because a lot of them were tested to destruction. He was no Musk.
Guys wanna know the craziest fact here? They HAND GLUED the carbon fiber to the titanium. Hand glued it. And I have actually seen no indication that they used a physical or chemical abrasive prior, and neither have others I’ve spoken to about this subject. So they just smeared this stuff they called “peanut butter” in the carbon fiber hull and on the titanium and shoved the titanium in. Carbon fiber doesn’t work this way! It takes pulling pressure, not pushing. It isn’t meant to have pressure pushing on it like that. It’s going to give. It’s GOING TO GIVE. Everyone knew this and tried to warn Stockton and he flat out ignored it and said “yeah but I know I know better, and I know it’ll work”. I don’t know how he convinced himself. I truly don’t. Maybe he just didn’t care and wanted to die instantaneously. But to murder those other people… it’s horrific. He knew better than to hand glue that carbon fiber to the titanium. He knew better than to use carbon fiber! He knew better, and he chose to ignore it. He knew how carbon fiber works and how it isn’t meant for high pressures to be pushed in it. It can handle pulling. It can handle when the pressure is pushing outwards on it. Not when it’s pressing inwards. And he knew this.
Exactly…This was assisted suicide with multiple
murders
Excellent point that most of us find unbelievable! GLUED! Mind boggling that anyone could not know this would happen sooner or later.
Peanut butter, yum! It was probably construction glue bought at a local hardware store.
My dad was an aerospace engineer who specialized in composites. It was lighter, stronger and better suited to low atmospheric pressures.than metals. Perfect for space but completely unsuited to the insane pressures at depths. Its strength is that it stenches, it’s weakness is that it cannot stand too much compression. It is the exact WRONG tool/material for the job. He would have been appalled by Stockton Rush.
Did he know it?
EVERYBODY could see the problem with the Sub except for the delusional CEO.
Wonderful breakdown of this mishap. So many possible failure points in such a small vessel.
Why do civilians need to go down to these depths? For bragging rights? You get a better view from the cameras on a drone than out a tiny window. The whole thing is so senseless.
@@_winston_smith_ So true, if I was wealthy I would make a high def camera drone sub to go down and film stuff and watch on a big screen high def tv in the comfort of my mansion with munchies 😂
Exactly! There is plenty of detailed camera footage of the Titanic wreck that has been filmed previously with unmanned submersible ROVs
I think you first answer is 100% correct; bragging rights.
You can't simulate the weightlessness of space, but put the Titan on a flight simulator base with a 4K (or better?) display in front of the viewing window, showing the drone view, and the passengers would have a hard time telling the difference between simulation and reality.
Also you don't have to sit in a cramped cylinder breathing other peoples farts.
I think his ego got the better of him and people died because of it.
yeah I mean you gotta be a little crazy to try new things... but maybe the crazy leaders need pragmatic engineers that they LISTEN to ... to balance things out
To be fair the media kind of did Stockton a disservice in not explaining that he helped revolutionize air travel by introducing carbon fiber in to aircraft design.
Just like with this, everyone told him it could not be done. But in fact it could be, and carbon fiber designed aircraft’s are standard. So, he had proven people wrong before. Unfortunately, he was not a very good engineer.
100%
@@mt9727 Like every business out there....
Money over Safety everytime
@@jeffheyer7783 Burt Rutan had advanced composites long before this guy. He got Beech to build the Starship decades ago.
A quote someone told me: "Every disaster movie starts with the scientists being ignored"
As someone who watches disaster movies, that's not true lol
@@Luna_LU6546 Except when the “scientists” believe they know everything when they don’t and cause or create those disasters. See all the lies and inhumane policies pushed by the supposed “scientists” during and about COVID. They still haven’t paid for any of that nor called out or held accountable.
Man, i LOVE that you don't mince words and just GO in with what we are all thinking. Not many people brave enough to speak the truth on the internet these days
I am power electrical and later automatic control engineer, so not the mechanical type to explain best this. But as electrical engineer I can tell you that regulations and safety protocols and all made for a VERY good reason.
Never even allow your ego to push you to ignore the safety procedures! People died for many of these procedures to get established. You are not smarter genius than all before you.
The good smart engineering is not about skipping the rules and ignoring what was done before you. It is about smartly re-using all that was done before you.
Based on the above, I can say that I detect rising arrogance and narcissism in many of the contemporary business elite. Some things I read about AI and autonomous driving for example are not going to end well... here is me as control engineer speaking.
I can't get past he had All this money yet he didn't invest in making the strongest most durable submersible haul humanly possible. Using spun carbon fiber in between titanium caps is THE DUMBEST THING. Especially when you deal with intense compression repeatedly!!
well said!
Did he though? The money, I mean. I think Mr. Rush was another "billionaire" in his own mind.
Else, he would not have had to chase customers to Vegas to convince them to make the trip.
We keep hearing about all these paying customers lined up, but when a couple bailed, he chased the eventual victims across the USA and then filled the rest of the crew with his friends.
He can make the strongest possible titanium hull. But The issue is logistic.
He need to bring the cost of each dive to the level that customers are willing to pay. Thus the vessel has to be made extremely light.
@@PamelaContiGlass Billionaires do not use their own money.
@@esphileecatastrophic failure doesn’t sound like a good business model
Most regulations are written in blood. This is what goes through my mind when someone makes blanket statements about "burdensome" regulations.
Following regulations is too expensive or time consuming? Well, then the thing you are trying to do is beyond your means.
The big thing that gets to me is that this was a choice. Someone had all the information available to them and they chose to listen to their ego instead. They chose their "want" over their "need".
They could have made it an rov with a pressure vessel. They could have started operations in a fail safe manner. They could have tested their sub in situ. Learned what it could do, what it couldn't do, and what it's failure point was, all without risking anyone's life.
They chose to put people in that sub
@@blackoak4978
The regulations this time are written in 'goo'.
Stockton Rush... 'Bleep' you. 😞
i love the way they were pretending they were doing science and discovering new things, when all he wanted to do is make money off of other rich people taking tours. He was really mostly concerned with getting going to generate income.
Or, you know, just pay the C-suite a few percent less and sink that money into structure and safety, where it NEEDS to be!
That cost too much $$. They only wanted to spend $.
@@josephfilm73
If that much?!
5 famous quotes of this CEO: 1) If you want safety, stay in bed. 2) All government safety regulation in placed sole purpose is to stifle scientific innovation. 3) Money spend on safety considerations is pure waste. 4) You will be remembered for breaking rules. 5) Make sure others are with you in a doomed journey.
Never send a failed aircraft engineer to make a submersible.
@@indridcold8433 he will be easily hired because they know he is an engineer money can buy, you'll see
@@indridcold8433 💯 THAT is the best lesson to learn here!
In their defense, there are more aircraft in the Ocean than submarines in the skies!
He rolled the greedy dice…and got snake eyes…
There's a huge difference between "absolute safety" and "following industry standards". This was reckless.
He wasnt even following the industry standard. Apperently he was bragging about dodging regulations before this happened. Dude thought he was smarter than everyone
Thank you, for one of the most informative videos about this. I am an automotive mechanic for the last 45 years and that said even I know carbon fiber is not designed to handle extreme pressures. I also would like to thank the other engineers and professionals that work carbon fiber for a profession for their comments below. The video plus these comments benefit the viewer with knowledge they may not have. Thank you TBdV and the engineering and professional commenters.
From my experience with pressure housings for deep sea stuff it goes nothing, nothing, nothing bang. There is no warning at all and once a failure starts to happen the damage goes at the speed of sound through the material. The composite material turns into powder because there is a lot of energy in the situation. The people on board wouldn't have even known it happened.
We hope they didn't know it anyways.
None of us was there so who knows how it went down precisely.
I'd sure prefer to not see it coming, but who knows. Life tends to be cruel and very strange at times.
Your a liar
@@DellaWatson-cz3mq Nope but I won't bother to prove otherwise
They know something was going wrong. The sub most likely tipped nose down, completely vertical before it imploded. That'd pretty much let you know at that point you're going to die. It's just waiting in panic for it to happen.
@@DrSpoculus I saw nothing that suggested it tipped before the bang. I cant think of any reason it would.
If you are not an engineer it is a wonderful and great thing to listen to the engineers.
When you have Arrogance in the face of death, Death has the upper hand.
@@bazzingabomb this comment us dumb
@@whitney4951 Everyone else gets it except you, says a lot about your intellect or lack of one.
LOL you had to get help from your keyboard to spell arrogance, speak of death as if it were a being, and then go to say i have the lack of a singular intellect.. but go off 🤣🤣🤣😅
@@whitney4951 I'm not the one that needs help...
The problem is these people were lead by a man who actively bragged about not following procedure, not learning from the past. His limited understanding off the science and its application convinced him he was right. He said that he deliberately broke rules and then laughed about it on camera. He sounded proud about it.
This wasn't so much an accident as... a roll of the dice. A losing hand at cards. The stakes were not (only) money, but death. No one was walking away poorer but wiser.
I don't really buy the "convenience versus safety" argument because the Titan team didn't even do the bare minimum of testing. And yes, nothing can be "perfectly safe", this doesn't mean that testing and standards are useless. There are degrees of safety and standardization and they did none of it.
The thumbnail is awful it was definitely an implosion framing the unpressurized tail section as the passenger section is just flat out miss information borderline disinformation
That is the tail cone. It was not pressurized, therefore the stress was equal on all sides. The titanium-ended cylinder did implode, and you could totally have used that as your thumbnail snd been intellectually honest.
The other clip shows the other section of the sub with an end dome still attached to remnants of CF, whilst the other dome elsewhere was stripped clean of CF. This is why it's more likely the glue separation rather than the hull failing in the middle caused the incident
Thanks for the awesome video. Never seen your content before now and I am not sure why it popped up but I’m glad it did.
Ricky, thanks for reviewing this subject. Obviously, there's a ton of these videos, each person with their own take on it. What resonated with me is your engineering perspective of tradeoffs. EVERYTHING is a tradeoff, and as a fellow engineer, I've totally gotten my head around that. This event is absolutely a tragedy for those involved but as you pointed out, the edge of the envelope gets pushed out further and we as a society learn how to go a little bit further while still being able to get back alive.
Something i learned from overclocking CPUs, you want to stress test your overclock until it fails over and over again until you really know the stable performance threshold.
This works well with safety issues too. You really need to know the limits of your equipments
Yes, if you are looking for reliability and not 1 time records this is exactly what you must do. Run every kind of test not just the high load ones, jump between all load states using all available instruction sets. If you are testing for a customer who wants say 48 hour Kahru stable at so and so spec, test it for a higher spec at 72 hours before calling the requirement good enough. If possible test it at very low temperatures and very high temperatures, with different amounts of airflow including none etc. Find the lowest voltages for each and every rail (ie for memory cpu vddq-tx, cpu vdd2, system agent, dram vdd, dram vddq, dram vpp) and then add 20-40mv for a buffer an on and on
It is hard to believe anyone would think using two different materials and gluing them together and using under such high pressure is a usable idea. Also, using any other shape than a sphere seems odd.
yeah... a sphere is best, cylinder is second
8’d say eggshell is traditionally the best shape, but I’m a darwinist at heart and you would need a mighty big hen…
the sphere would be too small for many passengers . so it was a fatal economic decision.
@@ronblack7870 you understand that spheres come in every sizes ?
@@G_de_Coligny True, but due to the relationships of 4/3 πr³ for volume and 4πr² for area, the amount of added weight of material and the huge increases in surface area for even small increases in radius make spheres above a certain size impractical, or requires joinery that introduces potential failure points. The original bathysphere was of as few parts as mechanically possible and as small as possible, because the amount of force exerted on the hull increases with the square of radius and you are more subject to the modulus of elasticity the greater the surface area, requiring a thicker hull, more weight, and reducing any gains in usable space. ETA: God, I'm a nerd. 😂
Tony was covering his own butt. He was part of the problem and culpable imo
Totally! That was clear from fired engineer David Lochridge's testimony. Tony Nissen was Stockton Rush's right hand man and totally loyal to him. He and Rush were one voice in dismissing Lochridge;s safety concerns about Titan, and shutting him out of all meetings/discussions on its development. Nissen was just as bad as Rush!
Nissen has changed his tune since leaving the company and obviously, since the disaster. He's a self serving weasel.
YES Tony Nissen’s testimony was so off-putting, awkward, and infuriating I had to stop watching it. The full thing is on the US Coast Guard TH-cam. His whole testimony seemed to have two goals: 1) I’m actually super smart, everyone! 2) I never thought this was safe either! The reality is he wasn’t a licensed engineer, he had zero experience building submarines, and he also brushed off David Lochridge’s concerns.
Great breakdown, especially on overall engineering. As an ME, I can relate to much of what you say. Sadly, us Engineers are often overlooked, and out-voted by the "bean counters". Then when a failure occurs, we are asked what we did wrong....
I enjoyed your analysis of testimony. I watched but didn't understand alot. You made it understandable.
I wish this could be aired prime time cable as this is the best balance of information and length of anything available at this time. Excellent content
4 km That is very deep. A human would be crushed down to the size of a hotdog faster than an explosion. And seeing as they were 4 times deeper than Henry's Law would require, at that depth the air inside of the vessel would not have even formed a bubble. Even the air itself would have been instantly absorbed into the water.
So are you saying there is no chance of finding the bodies?
Correct. At those pressures they basically blinked out of existence. The implosion happened at a speed faster than the brain can process thought.
@@stone-rock that’s been announced since day one. There are no bodies. They vaporized.
@@stone-rock Indeed, well beyond the point where one ceases to be biology and has instead become physics.
RUC, Rapid unscheduled compression, as they would call it at spaceX 😂
Learning from failures is NOT the ONLY way! Yes, it's often so, but not the ONLY way!
'No implosion' with an arrow pointing to the rear that had no airspace?
It was the pressure vessel that imploded!!!!!!!🤦♂️
I just wanted to say that I've clicked a lot of these kinds of videos recently. I thought this was just another click bait. I was so wrong, I loved the video and learned a ton. Fantastic work.
I have watched a ton of these videos over the last year and the amazing thing to me as NON-engineer is everyone keeps talking about this as an engineering problem. Take it from the mouth of someone who knows nothing about your field. There was NO ENGINEERING going on! THAT was the problem.
@@Longjohnsilver58 yea, it is very apparent you’re a non-engineer if you think they brought a submersible to the Titanic multiple times with, “NO ENGINEERING going on”. It’s a leadership problem.
There are engineering involved, but they are compromised and over powered by business decisions.
@@iOSAT Really? I would have thought the mere presence of a sense of humor would have made it more than sufficiently apparent :)
@@esphilee Yes, that is technically true.
Longjohnsilver showing iOSAT that they're probably both out of their depths :-)
The problem is,; the engineers learn, the business majors do not. I've been an engineer far to long and seen this too many times.
And if the business major starts to learn, the accountant will point out how much it costs and the actuary will project cost and probability of failure and the lawyer will advocate a liability release to cover it. Then the best engineer(s) will quit because they can find a better job.
Boy Howdy! Retired 77 yr.old mech eng. here. You knock your butt off for an outfit, put 'em in the market and then are thrown out 'cause you won't lie about the product.
As someone who worked with carbon fibre in the automotive manufacturing industry, it's so damn wild to me that the sound warning system wasn't just instantly laughed out. With the depth that thing was going to, and the sheer amount of time it takes to get to the bottom and come back up? I just don't understand how an "early warning system" would have done literally anything other than tell you you're screwed. Carbon fibre doesn't give many warnings, and the warnings it would give aren't the sort you can just casually sit with for another 4hrs or however long it takes to get back up to the surface. I'd speculate any small failure would make the sub even harder to surface too. Once the fibres start to weaken, that's added water weight, making the fibre less bouyant.,
Seems like Stockton got his own way for much of this design, no matter how stupid some of the ideas were.
The sound system was laughed at by anyone outside the company who looked knew anything and looked at it. It was basically there to help Stockton get through the loophole of bringing tourists down. They weren't tourists, they were 'mission specialists' he gave someone a walkthrough and told them to watch the system monitor and they were counted as someone performing a role during the trip.
@@chrisblake4198 The entire sub was laughed at by anyone outside the company, and even some in it (who wer ethen fired). I don't think the sensors helped with any loopholes tbh, at least I've not seen evidence of such yet, I imagine they were simply to give a false sense of security. I'm just surprised the sound sensors got pastt the first concept, but I suppose Stockton ensured he surrounded himself with young folk who were more worried about losing their job and lawsuits than questioning him.
"Ah, my instruments tell me that the glass jar I'm in has shattered, and that I died 3/4 of a femtosecond ago."
@@CheezMonsterCrazy "Oh goodness me, my glass jar has begun cracking at these deep depths, let me just begin the 2+hr ascent. I'm sure the glass will hold and the cracks will stop and won't cause any issues. Glass absolutely isn't known for it's shattering properties or fast failure or anything"
The acoustic early warning system thing was obviously a failure, everyone who had been in that sub at any depth has said there were loud cracking sounds, and yet the early warning system wasn’t warning them?
We need to be asking what can we learn and take away from this tragedy and how to make sure it doesn’t happen again
Good info Ricky thanks for sharing buddy👊🏼
As a certified pest control technician with zero engineering experience I still know that if you can't afford the testing and classing you can't afford to do the project. And it ought to be illegal to take paying passengers on a vessel that isn't specifically certified for the intended use. Gross neglegense is in fact illegal if I'm not mistaken.
Maybe someday underwater vessels can be 3D printed/welded so you get a hull with known qualities.
thats why they were deemed mission specialist in the name of science. To avoid the "passenger" part.
@@comfortablynumb9342 Pest guy here!!! Civilian pest tech for the Air Force.
@@comfortablynumb9342 Well there were 2 $billionaires on the trip, you would think they may have do some due diligence.
@@fishmonger6879 I'm poor but I know better than to get on a rig like that. I've made enough stuff to recognize a bad design and that one was obviously max level sketchy. Carbon fiber isn't for compression like that. Connecting it to rigid metal and compressing it wasn't logical.
@@lateralus614 that's pretty sickening. But I do blame the passengers some for not researching enough.
Don't use carbon fiber for compressive loads. Enough said.
Its not so simple. A carbon mast (sailboat), can take serious compressive loads. Its the radial compressive cyclic loading of a cylinder thats not favourable.....
I'm pretty sure a carbon submersible was made in the late 60s called the AUSS that did deeper dives..
@@FJB2020 care to make a guess what the U stands for? It was built in the 70s and launched in 83, not the 60s, and it wasn't a pressure vessel. Structural carbon fiber for propulsion and instrumentation, basically a tethered torpedo ROV.
@chrisblake4198 Yes, it was a pressure vessel, and while Unmanned, it ran off its own power and did dives up to 20,000 feet.. Stockton used the build data from the AUSS for his project.. Sorry, the late 70s, not the 60s..
Having welded and worked with metal for several years in the industrial maintenance field, my jaw hit the floor when I saw carbon fiber mated to titanium with epoxy. My first thought was dissimilar materials expanding at different rates. How could a supposedly educated person create such a glaring problem knowing the very wide window of differentiation in temperatures and pressures over many duty cycles, let alone the thousands of pounds of psi exerted everywhere when at the depth of HMS Titanic? Perhaps his aerospace engineer mindset didn't grasp vacuum over intense hydraulic pressure. (Throw his obvious arrogance in and it's a dangerous concoction.)
This channel having less than 1M subs is criminal. Great content, production value and audio quality is all suburb.
Thanks @twoBitDaVinci - great video. Point well made on the space exploration.
Those who don't learn from history are forever condemned to repeat it -Winston Churchill
@@Nancy-hy5so Edmund Burke
George Santayana (1863-1952)
@@phillyphil1513 Santayana was post-Burke
As I have gotten older I have had some problems with claustrophobia. I would need to have Valium administered thru an IV to get into one of those submersibles.
Thru an IV? Can't you just swallow it?
@@callyman went right over your head
@@pinkfrostsaber1337 obviously
@@callyman It can be administrated both orally and in extreme cases thru an IV.
@@user990077 yeah I know that but they usually administer orally before IV except in emergency sits. So if your going to go into a confined space I'd think you'd prepare... By taking it orally beforehand.
However the real issue here is getting in that sub when you have claustrophobia and I'd not full stop, even without claustrophobia.
Thanks for your reply although I'm still trying to figure out which bit went over my head lol
In germany (and probably elsewhere we have this saying "Wir irren uns empor" which could be translated to "we err upward". I love that quote for science and mankind as a whole.
This incident just doesn't fit at all. Way too many voices of concern were ignored.
Can you elaborate on this quote and it's meaning?
As German, I have never heard this idiom or saying. Never heard anyone utter these words! ❤
@@Helix_22 Basically it means that we learn from our mistakes. Each error we make contributes to our knowledge of how to do things correctly. So the Oceangate incident goes against this notion by making the mistakes of the past and expecting different results.
This is probably one of the best videos I've seen on this subject. You made things very easy to understand and it wasn't the exact same stuff I've heard over and over about this.
Hello
Your awesome.
I am a carpenter (always wanted to be an engineer) and even though I don't build superstructures and such. I deal with materials and really appreciate your ability to tell the story and inform.
RIP to the victims……But this entire situation was absolutely ABSURD….anyone with a “common sense” approach understands that diving to a depth of 12,500 feet in a submersible is EXTREMELY dangerous and requires near perfectly constructed submersibles…..and that requires testing….This situation was easily preventable and the simple lesson is don’t skirt testing and regulations
If you've ever seen Martial artists break a single brick...You'll know they put half of it over a ledge. It acts like a fulcrum and concentrates the force to make it break at the edge. That's what happened at the edge of the titanium and carbon fibre.
It was most certainly destroyed via implosion, the debris in the thumbnail for this vid was the outter shroud of the submersible, no the pressure vessel. And the reason why you don’t see the pressure vessel is because it was imploded to bits.
The pressure vessel actually shows up later in the video, though the carbon fiber hull is a crumpled mess stuffed into one of the metal half spheres
Imploded but not to bits, the hull was still there in the video. Just collapsed, not shattered.
Thank you. I really enjoyed your video 💙
I was a Submariner in the US Navy. I served on two different classes of submarines. My first boat was a Thresher/Permit class boat. For those that do not know the USS Thresher was the lead boat of the the Thresher class until she was lost on 10APR1963. Due to her loss the SUBSAFE program was started. It lead to many changes in how submarines were built and repaired. It saved many lives over the years. The engineering that went into the program and safety features and standards that were created were for a reason. When I hear of the the things that were by passed in creating the Titan submersible, I just shake my head and ask WHY?
We didn’t learn anything that wasn’t already known.
Did you know Titan had been struck by lightning? I listened to Nissen speak for the full interview and that part was new to me. He said it cracked after that and they fired him when he told them it had to be scrapped and dove anyway.
@@mylesgray3470 The fact that Rush started having the ship TOW the submersible (on its launch platform) behind the ship for over a hundred miles instead of commissioning a ship large enough to carry the submersible on its deck until reaching the dive site tells me that Rush was cutting costs in the most dangerous way possible.
Exactly, the video's conclusion is ridiculous. Five people didn't have to die to tell us what was already known - and had even been warned about by maritime experts. OceanGate was a cost cutting cowboy outfit, which put profit before people, and was playing an outrageous game of deep sea Russian roulette with human lives.
There should have been laws in place to protect the (super-rich) public, and keep them out of the clutches of reckless, exploitative mavericks like Stockton Rush.
@@glamdolly30 you said it all perfectly and I’m VERY surprised by this video - this creator is usually insightful but not today.
Best presentation I have watched. Thanks.
greatly appreciate that, thanks for tuning in!
2:55 and yet they did it anyways and here we are, over a year later and they’re still stumbling over their words trying to make more excuses to try to duck more blame that is rightfully theirs.
The sad part of this story, is that the owner of that company took tourists. They should have done tests and they should not have sold "tickets" to innocent people. Make mistakes -- that is how we learn, but don't take others with you unnecessarily.
The one thing about Titan that truly amazes me is the acoustic monitoring system.
It listens for cracks in the carbon fiber hull, fine. Yet everyone who ever dove in the craft could clearly hear the hull cracking, including Rush, who brushed aside any concerns as it being “normal “.
I honestly would trust the very audible cracking as a clear indication of potential failure; micro fractures that are inaudible, less so. A loud crack is going to get anyone’s attention over, dare I say, “a machine that goes PING!”.
The little machine that goes ping. And nobody in the surgical theatre knows what it's for.🤣😇 cheers! / CS
In the hearing it was revealed that the acoustic monitoring sensors had data for crack sounds on nearly every single dive, however with each successive dive the frequency and intensity of the cracks lessened. Tony probably likened this to breaking in a baseball glove, they really thought carbon fiber would just "settle in" and be good for 1,000 more cycles. 😅
@@kudjo24 I read that also. The new release of information from the Coast Guard shows them speculating that the cracking sounds were caused by bubbles in the adhesive layers and the uncurled adhesive layers actually slipping over each other due to the immense pressure squeezing the hull.
The acoustic monitoring showed that after dive 80, when the loud crack was noticed by the crew, the normal phase of micro fractures during diving and surfacing detected suddenly increased during ascending. They said it should have been a red flag of potential failure of the hull, but that data was ignored.
I truly believe that Rush may have had some death wish to go down in history under some tragic circumstances, in light of all this. Rush was as reckless as the poor chap in France who insisted that his NEW parachute design was so much better than the existing ones that he was going to jump off the Eiffel Tower in it to prove his point. The film of his jump shows his friends begging him not to as he stands on the rail with them waiving to him to get down and he jumped anyway.
He made history all right also!
For those in the UK, the point around the 1:50 mark is dealt with largely by what's called the ALARP principle. It's enshrined in UK law as a result of the Edwards vs The national coal board case. The Titan sub is an excellent case study of how not to demonstrate safety in a high integrity system.
The engineering profession needs to as a profession form an organization that can back individual engineers when they have a crucial safety issue like this... just being fired or quitting, silencing them, should not be an option. The profession should pool their resources to have leverage over regulation to allow for this intervention, and employ even legal action... lobby to get laws to allow them to intervene. Individual engineers would be resistant to blow that horn, but it should exist as an option.
A disaster?
5 people did die tragically.
Car wrecks routinely kill 5 or more people, we don't call those things "disasters".
Is it a disaster because the victims were mostly rich?????
Yes… next question
@@chuckoneill2023 disaster can also describe the level of incompetence that has been shown on too many levels
Its a disaster because this isn't a thing that regularly happens in the submersible industry anymore. We have an understanding that cars are dangerous, underregulated, cost reduced, and operated by underqualified morons. The same is not true of submarines, which we've engineered and regulated to be even safer than airplanes, much less cars.
@@CheezMonsterCrazy cars are overregulated and cost expanded. but they are operated by billions daily, which does include underqualified morons.
@@CheezMonsterCrazy I've traveled aboard several tourist submarines, you're right, they are very safe and comfortable. But, this was a private company, which required everyone to sign waivers.
They understood the risks. More to the point, these hearings won't prevent anyone from doing this again. They were operating on the high seas, well outside anyone's jurisdiction. Which anyone can do, if they have the money.
Yeah....... you are misunderstanding what explosion means. Just because it isn't obliterated doesn't mean it didn't implode. It definitely imploded. Just not the way that they thought it would!
i think the biggest lesson we can learn from this is, if your project is ‘too expensive’ and ‘going to take too long’, then you need to TAKE that time and SAVE UP for it. not break rules and regulations or use ‘cheaper’ materials that don’t hold up. ESPECIALLY when other people’s lives are on the line!!! this project was reckless and could have been avoided.
In stress analysis, you would use strain gauges to monitor stresses in a structure. I can't believe that there seems to be nothing installed on the structure to measure the load on the carbon fiber cylinder. You would have known way before the implosion that the hull was going critical.
I agree. They did use strain gauges for some of the qualification testing but they depended solely on the acoustic feedback in practice for some reason.
A simple daily examination might have told them that. Using ultrasound would also have been a noninvasive method of looking for potentially dangerous delamination. Even if they'd checked it daily, carbon fiber is made to hold pressure IN, but it doesn't do a good job of holding pressure OUT.
I'm sorry you lost me with the "oh this is a frontier this kind of failure is normal" this is the guy who had an open disdain for safety regulations. Everyone already knew this was a bad idea! We knew this is not how you make a safe sub! Stockton Rush is a lesson in hubris, a lesson in what happens when you decide on no foundation that you know better than the experts. He killed himself for his ego and greed and what's worse is he took several people including a teenager with him
What is with the thumb nail? Of course the tail section of the sub was not part of the pressure section of the sub... Why did you make your thumb nail misleading?
Click bait
What a GREAT channel! Im so happy to have found this! ❤
Excellent video. I'm glad I stumbled on your channel today. You gave a clear, accurate and informative rundown from the perspective of a professional. Thank you.
"nO iMpLOSiOn? ----->" .......well duh, that section pictured wasn't a pressure vessel.
They couldnt call it watergate because that was already taken