Wreckage Of Titan Submersible Reveal How It Imploded
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ม.ค. 2025
- The US Coast Guard has just begun its public inquiry into the Titan Submersible accident, and in the process has released a number of documents, including, critically footage from a remotely operated vehicle showing the wreckages on the ocean floor.
I believe this wreckage confirms that the failure began at the interface between the carbon fiber pressure hull and the forward titanium interface ring. A great deal of composite debris has been pushed backwards into the rear hemisphere, while almost none is visible near the forward sphere.
Many more documents are available here and more witnesses will testify over coming days, providing new insights into this event
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I heard a sub safety expert give his thoughts on this incident, and basically he said: he had no real problem with trying a new hull design, but before any human got into that new hull there needed to be two tests done. 1) Put hull under increasing pressures until it failed, to understand the actual structural limit of the hull coming out of the factory and 2) cycle the hull between 1ATM and 120% of intended limit until it failed or until the intended lifespan was reached.... then cut the hull up and analyze any defects that formed during the pressurization/depressurization cycles.
...of course that would involve destroying at least two vessels, and that was not in the budget. Homicidal negligence.
This is how hydraulic pressure bearing components are developed.
There was numerous reports of bad noises being heard when it dived those were the individual strands of CF failing 😮 when enough fail you get insta mushy
I would say they were running this thing way to close to its ultimate loading. It should have been designed with a significant safety margin (I forget what standard engineering practice is - at least 50%?). But no, they were running this thing very close to its ultimate load carrying ability.
well, now they got 1 sample!
Engineers thrive on failure. Test to failure, then back-math to add safety factors.
I think Stockton couldn't admit any failures because Stanford is primarily a business school.
That fired engineer has the biggest "Told you so" card in his hand but no one to show it to anymore lol
If if there is an afterlife, he may still get to tell them "told you so".
They probably didn't even have time to realize he was right.
Doubt that man feels any vindication whatsoever
I saw someone talking about this who said, "You should not speak ill of the dead you should only speak good. The Oceangate dude is dead... good." This guy had an abject disdain for safety. The REASON we hadn't had a lethal sub accident in so long was BECAUSE people took safety seriously.
@@HermanFalckHowOh I’ll bet he sure does.
People joke about the controller, but that thing was easily the best engineered thing on the entire sub.
That controller ALONE would’ve kept me from going down there with him 🕹️
@@allgasnobrakes919 its NOT A BAD CONTROLLER IT DOES THE JOB :( i mean come on supposedly military drone/robot operators use xbox controllers :b
wait nvm i just saw the controller i was wrong my bad :(
I love how they originally gave a us all these computer models
And cgi explaining exactly what happened and telling us all this science on how it happened then months later it’s proven to be completely false and nothing they explained actually happened. Now THATS science. Just a bunch of random guesses but you can’t even get tomorrows temperature right or fix the same issues with windows 30 years later
Why do you try to steal people's comments?
Someone like three comments down said the exact same thing almost a full day before you.
It's weird, man.
Sometimes people just watch the video, comment, and leave. No one should be expected to read comments. Stop getting offended for other people, it's weird.
It wasnt that he fired people that "thought" they knew better that led to his demise, it was the fact he fired people that DID very well indeed know better than himself which led to his demise.
Rush was no dummy. He didn't fire them because he thought they were wrong. He fired them because he knew they were right.
He probably saw it as the experts thought they knew better. Which is probably the case considering he fired people who know what they’re talking about
Since he is mush , justice is done
@@tcuster55 Stockton Mush
@@tcuster55 Captain Mush
The fact that the people inside would have never perceived their death as it was happening because of how instant it was is both the most comforting and horrifying thing imaginable.
Comforting is how fast it occurred, horrifying that there would have been indications, crackling in the hull, before it happened.
I can only think about that poor fucking kid that didn't want to be there in the first place. I hope he didn't even see it coming.
@@jasonjohnson2813 Nah, that stuff only happens in the movies. The time between initial failure and total implosion is so short they wouldn't even have noticed the warning signs before they were crushed. Thunderfoot did a decent video on some of the forces involved in a hull failure at this depth, the timescale everything happens in is insane.
@boggart1062 sorry I'm not buying it. Nobody knows how long death is because Nobody is a live to say anything a out it. Science says it imploded and they died in a instant and never felt a thing. That boy knew something was wrong before he went into it. That fear alone could have grown once underwater. And you don't know if they heard or felt anything at the moment of death.
Instant means that the ceo passed away never thinking he was wrong...so never got to realize it.
I’ll still never get over how OceanGate preemptively named themselves after the likely controversy they would cause
It's like they hoped irony would protect them. And it did... for a while.
But now the whole affair will have to be called "OceanGateGate"........
Kinda funny how one historical event gave a new meaning to the word "gate"
@@pauldzim This is going over my head, which event gave new meaning to gate?
@@greyw0lv The watergate office scandal. It sank Richard Nixon's reelection bid and forced his resignation.
a wise person once said, "safety warnings are written in blood" its a shame that its so true
They say that about FAA regulations too
@@THEnelsonbruhsI think that is where the term originated.
Yep absolute truth.
The problem is a lot of it is written in stupid people’s blood. DONT PUT YOUR HAND UNDER A RUNNING LAWNMOWER. Ok buddy, thanks for the tip.
Or, written in pink mist, in this case.
Subnautica played fast and loose with a lot of science to make a fun game, but I'm surprised at how well it nailed the look of wreckage at the bottom of the sea
I would say subnautica did a pretty good job at portraying science reasonably accurate while still making an entertaining game, The ecosystem in that game for example could theoretically work
@@the_undead Yea particularly for a video game, it did quite a good job. I do suspect I'd have difficulty popping out of my submarine at 1000m below sea level, then swimming straight to the water's surface. But decompression would've slowed the game down a ton and you've gotta pick your battles when designing. Subnautica 1 & 2 remain among the best games I've ever played so they clearly got that balance right!
@@danielhale1 It also does take place several thousand years in the future, so theoretically that is a problem they could have solved. My biggest gripe with the game personally is how the rebreather works compared to how rebreathers work in the real world but that can easily be chalked up to game balance and them trying to make a difficult survival game rather than a more exploration based game
Are We Forgetting That The Cyclops Had A Maximum Depth of Only 1700m And The Consequences of Exceeding That Depth
In some decades more we'll have tit going down to see titan who went down to see the titanic 💀💀
Watch that thing also, colaps
Seems to me like Stockton loved the ocean, but did not respect it in the slightest.
He loved himself. Selfish.
Fascinated by the ocean and outer space, but didn’t respect the forces at hand. Anyone that got on that under water coffin isn’t the brightest mind out there…
@@brianreber8842
Or he got carried away by the magic...
He was the guy that thinks he is the smartest in the room no matter the room.
He didn’t have the correct level of fear about the sheer power and physics of what you’re dealing with down there. Sad that he killed people along with himself, shame that the hubris of man took out more than the hubristic one.
Here’s my story. I was a quality control chemist for a major oil company. We had oil tanks holding thousands of gallons of oil and because oil gets very thick at low temperature the tanks had these heating coils at the very bottom of the tank to lower the viscosity of the oil so it could be pumped. Then about 4 feet above the bottom was a pipe so oil could either be put in or taken out then about 6 feet from the bottom was a temperature sensor. If the temperature sensor registered a low oil temperature it would automatically turn on the heater at the bottom of the tank. I pointed out to the plant manager that if oil level was below the temperature sensor and it was cold that the heater would turn on but would not turn off the heater because the sensor was reading the air temperature and not the oil. My manager told me to write a memo to corporate about the issue. I got a notice back saying essentially I had no idea what I was talking about and to stay in my lane. A few months later my manager told me that at another oil facility what I said might happen happened and the tank caught on fire because the oil at the bottom of the tank kept getting hotter and hotter and eventually caught on fire.
larryo,
Sleep well, you did what you could.
I'd only add, i'd find out who sent me that letter / response and who his boss, as well as his boss was and send them your suggestion and the response you got.
Then pray they fired you. A good lawyer and you're retired.... ☆
Similar to a thermostat in a sealed cooling system. If the coolant is low it will read cold on the temp gauge even tho the engine is likely over heating... your situation should have been obvious to anyone that finished 2nd grade.
Every time there's a process disaster there's always people on the ground who report the issue and management that finds it cheaper to just risk other people's lives.
Fair play man, usually when someone says in the engineering field if given critical feedback (not in a negative, way just in a for the better of mankind way) there ego does the talking, and you usually get told that "you have no idea what your talking about". Instead they could just say appreciate it and explain why the propasition doesn't work, no offense to engineers, but ego is a majour thing, and alot of them really don't like admitting if there in the wrong. I was one but left the field. Admitting your wrong or don't know when your asked a question that you know 80% of the topic of, in my opinion is the true sign of intellegence. Fair play man though must say. Would love if said ass hole who said you had no clue, got a letter from you saying "maybe you have no clue" with the news of the tank explosion.
Well, you stayed in your lane, you’re safe. I quit that whole damn industry altogether because I want to be able to live with myself.
FINALLY a video that isn't clickbait and ACTUALLY shows something new. Like I didn't even know the wreckage has been found... Nice update!
The wreckage actually was found within about a week of losing contact -- note the embedded timestamp of "June 22, 2023" on the ROV's footage (in the lower left corner). Now is just the first time it's being shown publicly.
@@Stratelier - yep, understandably they just could not release it right away.
Was found and brought up within days. DNA from all passengers was identified. I believe the wreckage was brought back to shore on the same vessel that took them out days before.
Exactly!!! I watched an hour long video that was titled sumthin like everything you didn't know about the sub (not even close to the title but adhd) and it was literally everything I heard on tiktok as it was happening 🤦
I knew the wreckage had been found, but now I can confirm with absolute certainty that those purported leaks of communication transcripts that popped up in the first couple weeks or so after the incident were all fake.
I'm so glad you don't have a problem with the video game controller. It was probably the best part about this, my Logitech wireless controller works flawlessly after over almost two decades of use.
The military uses them too.
But they aren't intended to be used for military or submarine use.
@solarismoon3046 Tell that to the military, maybe they'll stop.
mILiTarY GrAde
@@0therun1t21False equivalence. The fact that the military uses them, doesn't mean that they're intended for military use.
@@AUTI5T1X False equivalence on your end.
The fact they are not intended for military or submarine use does not mean they aren't suitable.
Richard Feynman´s words during the Challenger investigation still rings true: "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
Hitchhiker's Guide: In cases of major discrepancy it's always reality that's got it wrong.
This applies equally to gender theory and other anti-science social movements. Reality exists and doesn’t care about made-up constructs.
Dr Feynman was one of the giants! A quirky giant, but a giant nonetheless!
We need to scream this from the top of every rooftop and mountain these days
I miss him.
You overlooked the fact that they were not glueing the end caps in a sterile environment. All it would take is dust, bits of skin or a hair in the glue to affect its strength. They did it in a dirty hangar with 50 people stood watching shedding all that off their bodies so their seal probably wasn’t ideal
Quality control was absent.
@@MrReymoclif714 lets face it, braincells were absent
@@snoopy6529The people who suggests a clean suit, were unironically fired for being woke…
That doesn't matter at all. The glue doesn't even do anything underwater really. The pressure takes care of keeping the sub together.
@@AceOfBlackjack dont bring politics into this
Every time I revisit this event, I'm shocked by the negligence involved. It's like going to space in a garbage bag.
Well....that's clear enough for me! Jeez us crisco..
we've yet to witness people dying on daytrips to space in homemade rockets but i feel that day isn't too far off
it is 400 times worse than going to space in a garbage bag
Lol, reminds me of this quote from The Martian: "Yeah, I get to go faster than any man in the history of space travel, because you're launching me in a convertible. Actually it's worse than that, because I won't even be able to control the thing."
At least you will float in space as long as you have oxygen in space suit and someone come to rescue but this ocean will kill you in seconds , I am beginning to believe that space travel is safer than deep sea travel
Thanks for pointing out that the scenario that possibly played out for the subs faults is not what everybody thinks happened.
It's very humbling but also informative. Im one of those people who said "carbon fiber hull... That's dumb." And hearing that a different sub successfully used carbon fiber in its structure is a very good reminder that i (and most other people) are nowhere near the experts that build subs.
Even if something stupid did take place, i think it's better to listen to what happened and let experts break it down without letting myself get arrogant about something i don't understand.
Aerospace engineer and former submariner here. I'm shocked at the uncontrolled environment used to assemble the hull, especially when the main cylinder was wrapped, and also when the hemispheres were then adhered to the wrapped carbon fiber hull...literally a warehouse with dust and other loose debris (human hair) floating around, uncontrolled humidity, etc. They also mixed the epoxy by hand...ugh. This would normally be performed in a humidity-controlled Class 10,000 clean room at the very least, with bunny suits for the assemblers. The entire manufacturing process was a mess...which implies so were a lot of other things with this ill-fated submersible.
I bet he wanted to be like Elon Musk, assembling -rockets- submarines in tents and sheds...
I work in aircraft makintenance and have worked with composites in aviation (large commerckial aircraft) Normally you do the layup in a climate controlled cleanroom.
Rich people love dey money and making any cuts dey can to get more.
It looked like they used a couple of grandma's old berry jam buckets to mix the epoxy.
Yeah I've seen some other composites people point that out - when any inconsistency in the CF layup OR the endcap adhesion will kill you, and they were too cheap to do it in a controlled environment.
Equally fascinating was Rush's spin of "I want to hire fresh out of school engineers" from the reality of "I don't want to employ people I can't bully into going along due to experience."
Sounds like a rich CEO
It is not fascinating, it is predictable because he was an incompetent engineer (only "practiced" for a couple of years decades earlier). Combine that with likely high insecurity he could never employ someone smarter than him.
That's a mindset of a lot of CEOs actually. Steve Ballmer cited the cost of new hires being the reason why software was expensive. It wasn't the new hires that cost a lot, it was the mistakes they made.
A fresh out of school engineer should never be left alone on a project. They need at least 1-2 years working alongside someone with much more experience. My company hired an engineer out of school 2 years ago. Good hard working guy. He really got going after a year. Now after two years he's pretty much on his own though I still give him pointers from time to time.
I agree with everyone replying to this comment. But I’d like to share my thoughts. I’m currently working my way into Cybersecurity. Part of that, obviously is learning cybersecurity best practices. The guys that get right out of cybersecurity classes are typically the most secure because all the proper procedures and protocols have been drilled into their heads for years. The standard way to do things is fresh in the mind. That’s why, if you test a first year employee at, let’s say, a government military contractor company, they will likely have the best security habits even compared to the guys who have been there for 20 years.
Like everyone is saying, this is a complicated situation. But, I can understand the reasoning behind hiring new engineers especially if they just got their PhD.
Now, this is just one part of the argument. And a good argument can be made for hiring older guys. I just thought I’d share my two cents.
The front fell off
Is that normal?
And 20,000 tonnes of crude oil spilt into the sea & caught fire! It’s a bit of a giveaway, but I’d like to make it clear that it is not normal
Well at least they didn't use any paper or cardboard or cardboard derivatives.
Did not expect a John Clarke reference here 😂
At least it was towed outside of the environment
I'm a retired environmental regulator in the city where the sub was built. I did a quick inspection of their facility when they first started building it. My focus was on water use and disposal and the only things I know about carbon fiber was from inspecting the Boeing factory's use of it. I met some of the people who were later fired, but just that once.
Since they had no contaminated discharge to sewer, we never went back.
nobody asked
@@sliverbox271991 Yet you replied...
You're being rude. @@sliverbox271991
@@sliverbox271991not cool man
@@sliverbox271991 NOBODY ASKED YOUR OPINION.
While all of us found the story interesting.
What's your job title? -I'm an engineer
What do you do? - My boss expected me to agree to all his designs.
good thing he doesn't have to do that anymore.
One of the best reasons to not be a kiss ass
Common sense
I've worked with a LOT of bosses who thought that my job was to approve every idiotic idea that he had to violate the rules of Physics (or the governing laws).
One boss who learned the hard way not to do that.
The boss got that way cause they all gave it to him willingly in exchange for money.
The difference between the Titanic and the surface is 400 atmospheres.
The difference between space and the surface is 1 atmosphere.
A finger can stop a small hole in space vehicle. But I don't think it could hold out 400 Bar.
@@Gribbo9999 2 fingers? 😁
@@JeffcrocodileStick a thumb in it.
The difference between the surface and the Titanic is an iceberg.
This reminds me of the one smart thing they say in the movie The Core "space is easy, it's empty"
Something about an engineer who used to work on Shuttle SRBs getting fired for speaking up really hits me in the irony bone. That's insane.
That didn't happen. Also, the Orbiter as perfectly safe. It was Nixon's booster system that was dangerous.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver Why do you think it didn't happen? Are you thinking the engineer wasn't formerly part of the SRB team, or that he was fired from working on titan for a different reason than speaking up about safety?
@@asharak84 Nobody was fired in the manner you state. SRB function was well-known and understood. The people to blame are Richard Nixon along with the Republic Congressional majority leader and Spiro Agnew ... all of whom laughed NASA out of the room when the fly-back booster design was presented.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver there is a misunderstanding. OP is talking about the engineer getting fired from OCEANGATE for speaking up about the Titan, not being fired from NASA.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver The engineer who used to work on SRB's did get fired by Stockton for speaking up to him.
You gotta put less effort in arguing and more into trying to reading someone's sentence again.
I wasn't paying full attention and didn't understand a lot. Still 10/10. You have a very soothing voice.
A family friend of mine actually works at the place they put the titanium hemispheres on
They ALL told him that the joint was going to fail within a few dives, specifically because CF and Titanium don’t flex the same under pressure.
He ignored them, and literally told them
“You don’t know what you’re talking about”
Sure buddy
Sure buddy
He should've replied with "Bet"
@@GamerGuy10191You don’t know what you’re talking about
@@GamerGuy10191 I'm not your buddy, friend
Certain aspects of this accident are hauntingly similar to the Challenger explosion in 1986. Particularly, the corners being cut by the companies involved in each expidition, as well as these incredibly accomplished engineers who were fired simply for raising valid concerns about the integrity of the module itself. Lastly, and perhaps the most terrifyingly similar to the Challenger incident, is the mention of o-rings being a possible point of failure for both crafts.
The difference is the Challenger is more on NASA than the contractors. They warned NASA “We have no idea how the O-rings will work at this temperature” and NASA ignored them.
@emberfist8347 yeah, you're right. The worst thing about the Challenger situation was that they DID tell NASA how the o- rings would react in that weather, because they had done tests. NASA was just tired of being delayed by the weather again, so they decided to proceed anyway. And it cost them lives.
I believe the epoxy used to glue the carbon fiber hull to the titanium rings is what failed.
what the fuck, so history just fucking repeated itself?
@@eomersimbajon2938 Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The mustache man who ruled Germany from 1933-1945 had the same problem not learning from Napolean that invading Russia isn’t going to be a short easy campaign done by Christmas.
I’m a test engineer with an aerospace engineering degree. I, obviously, don’t specialize in subs but pressure and FFMEA’s are similar across industry. I agree 100% in you analysis. It was pretty much what I said when I first heard about the lost comms issue. I explained to my coworkers (we found out on night shift) where the failure likely occurred, why matrices are terrible for pressure fatigue and that these people had no idea they might die until they were speaking with St. Peter. Great job as always Scott!
So you think it did not make any noises beforehand?
@Machoman50ta says the bot. Run along now.
@@9hybris Most certainly. But all subs make noises as they dive. The owner is likely the only one that knew it was a new/bad noise if anyone did.
@@neogator26 Thanks for the answer :) I was curious, because if the collapse came from the joints maybe the cracking sounds of the hull weren't there.
From my understanding the difference between aerospace and submarines is probably about the same difference as airplanes to spaceships. The pressure at those depths in the ocean is insane and the result is that the condition in space are far less hostile. The main reason spaceships are more complicated is due to the difficulty of reaching the different locations. Getting up to space, and then back down, is incredibly difficult. Meanwhile getting to the bottom of the ocean is as simple as throwing something heavy off the side of a ship. Getting back up is more complicated but is accomplished by losing weight and increasing volume, you just have to be aware that the pressure is going to exert some level of counteracting force on whatever you do to try to increase volume. Way too many people have died because they don't realize that the deeper they go the less effective their buoyancy devices are.
So basically getting into space is difficult, getting into the ocean is easy, surviving in space is difficult, surviving in the ocean at that depth is like hell mode difficulty. People think that a spaceship is more complicated than a submarine, but you also have to remember that we have spent centuries developing this technology. The earliest diving suit was in the 18th century and submarines were being created all the way back in the 1620's. That is 400 years of technological development. The first crewed spaceship wasn't until 1961, so just over 60 years ago. To put it in another perspective only 3 humans have technically died while in space. And those three that died in space died during the process for re-entry when an automatic process opened two valves at the wrong time and decompressed the vessel they were in.
If i were the safety officer , I would definitely put “getting fired by OceanGate” in my resume
"I wish I didn't have to learn things this way." Oof. That quote sums up basically all of engineering, if not all of human experience.
Yes, all safety regulations are written in blood.
Chuck Yaeger and his fellow test pilots in the 1950s called it "the ughknown". That ugly little question mark that just turned someone's million-dollar test aircraft into a smoking scar in the Mojave desert. Sometimes the pilot screwed up. Other times it was a tiny fault in the aerodynamics or engineering of the aircraft.
Dick Bong, a fantastic pilot, died because he didn't turn on the auxiliary fuel pump in his P-80A fighter. His main fuel pump failed on takeoff, and he didn't have enough altitude or speed to eject...and never turned on the auxiliary pump, so he rode a dead plane into the ground. And the P-80A wasn't even a prototype at the time.
the "O RINGS" where installed properly the first time, but then when they had to make another titan they reused them, when they were not suppose to, this is the exact part that failed. coincidence?
"let's do a thing"
"someone died!"
"... let's do the thing slightly differently"
- humans, all of history
Oof indeed.
The more I hear about this, the more amazed I am that this thing didn't fail on its first trip down
There was some kind of documentaty that stated that they had like.20-30 test dives and every time something f-ed up and failed. Also thous tests warent in full depth
I'm guessing that every time it dived, individual carbon fibre strands were breaking.
And sooner or late, enough broke that it catastrophically failed.
It had something fuck up constantly and half of dives were aborted. But it somehow managed to visit the Titanic successfully at least a handful of times, getting weaker and weaker each time it goes through the pressure changes
@@mrb.5610 I'm thinking that the laminate delaminated. Maybe carbon fibre breakage, maybe the epoxy being forced apart by a microscopic ingress of water at 400 atm. Either way, once you have that tiny ingress of high pressure water, it's no longer pressing the full-strength outer hull, it's pressing on a thinner layer, which will soon fail.
Same feeling I have about the Apollo moon missions. I'm astonished that they succeeded and survived despite the innumerable known failure modes, each fairly likely to occur and causing a complete loss. Apollo 13 realistically should have been the most successful mission, with them surviving at all being a miracle.
Man, the first shot of it laying there on the ocean floor in a million pieces is just so chilling...
Pretty sure it's chilly down there.
@@D4rk3clipse just stop.
@@rickkkclunk9799 they did
Its a grave to 5 people at the end of the day
@@raphaellauf7786 Is it a hand you can spot on the wreckage at some point?
I think you're spot on regarding there being too much stress at the interface due to differing compression tolerances of materials reacting to seawater pressure.
I'm an ex-bubblehead. I can attest to the creaking and shrinking of steel hulls at depth. Watertight doors are fine. But you have to decide whether you want a workspace or sleeping quarters door open or closed before you go deeper than a standard transit depth.
"Build me a crewed submersible!"
"Crude submersible, gotcha boss!"
But whoever came up with "Stockton Mush" is a twisted genius.
Brutal xD
Stockton Crush is also great
@@schrodingerscat1863read it again. Go ahead. We'll wait.
@@murmaider2 @6yjjk Stockton Grush.
@@schrodingerscat1863 Seriously, read what he wrote again.
So many people don't understand the power of water pressure. A few years back I made a ABS camera housing with a thin Plexiglass window to put my gopro in. I took it out in our harbor and sent it down about 300 Feet. When I retrieved it the window had been completely smashed in with broken pieces left all the way around the edge. When I listened to the footage it was so unsettling and terrifying. The silence in the dark fallowed by a light cracking sound then the missive smash of water as it punched the window in and rushed to fill the pipe then silence and the faint clicking of the broken pieces shaking around inside. Powerful and scary stuff I wont be going down in any subs that's for sure.
@johncarnett2668 il look and see if i can find it but it's been a few years since then.
@@philiplush2957 different commentor but can you reply to our comments when you do so we can check it out? I'd like to see this too. Thank you in advance.
@@philiplush2957if you do upload it come back to the comments here. That’s so cool
Please upload bro, that sounds intriguing :D
Damn, the gopro survived this?
The fact there is so much footage of this underwater coffin being assembled, so much documentation/record leading up to it, and the new footage of the aftermath, it's beyond haunting...it's a story of ego, money, and ineptitude impacting lives so horribly in which people in all fields of study will learn from, forever. This is what happens when you actively ignore experts, ignore even the most basic rules of physics, and defy the basic etiquette of being a boss in a team project. Firing the people who were afraid of the consequences of proceeding and the people who proved that failure was inevitable, what other result would there be?
Knowing they died instantly is some solace, but it didn't need to happen at all.
Thank you for showing us your evaluation, Mr. Manley.
(edited for a typo)
The guy who made CFTs and leaded gasoline also died of fully automated death by misadventure. He was paralyzed and died getting strangled by the mobility bed he built.
And yet we have millions of people who refused to listen to experts about global warming, vaccines, or the COVID pandemic.
Maybe there's just a general problem with stupid humans believing they have all the answers when they all they really have are unqualified opinions. And I blame the Internet for allowing these people to find each other in echo chambers instead of being smacked down with facts as they should be.
Millennia of people respecting the sea and the dude in charge thinks he was above it all. Love to see things align correctly.
@@JoshSweetvale terrifying
@@JoshSweetvale
You mean CFCs, right?
It's like something designed by a marketing team. 'So we're going down to the Titanic. What should we call the Submersible? That's right the 'Titan' of course. And what metal should we use to make it? Yep! Titanium of course!'
Don't forget they were there to visit the titanic
Having listened to some of the testimony so far, it's becoming clear that Rush decided to recruit some pretty smart and/or experienced people to his company, but didn't have the humility to realise that the reason he recruited them in the first place was because they knew what he didn't.
From what has been said about the dive on the Andrea Doria, and there are other people still to give testimony for that, he appears to be someone who liked to show off his toys, but didn't have the experience or ability to think about what he was doing. When he did land in a difficult situation, he couldn't think his way out of it. And when someone who did know what they were doing stepped in, he threw his toys out of the pram.
That's not somebody I'd like to be driving a car, I sure as Hell wouldn't want to be stuck in a submersible with him.
Yep, sounds like he wanted the prestige of having the best of the best. But also wanted people to think he was one of them, so when they disagreed or made him look bad he got rid of them.
"What was the last thing which went through Rush's mind before he died? The entire middle section of his submarine..."
He had to be the Boss, the Splendid Inventor, the Untouchable bully. 😖
@@bewilderbeestie Grim but true. 😱
Goes to show just because you became rich does not mean your Intelligent. Bill gates comes to mind. Able to run a business yes able to code for his life heck no.
As a retired engineer your video made my blood run cold. My assessment? I wouldn't get in that thing to ride to the bottom of a kiddie pool! There were so many engineering practices that were ignored in the construction - the list would be longer than the queue to buy rock-concert tickets. I'm sorry but it's too bad Mr. Ego took four others with him. Requiescat in pace.
Lol “Than the queue to buy rock concert tickets” 😂 I felt that!
Even the guy who helped design it refused to get into it.
Oh my god I never get to do this. I never get to pedantically correct someone’s grammar in LATIN
*requiescant (plural)
@@azraphonWhat does it translate to? ‘Rest in peace?’ Or pieces lol
as an engineer, one factor that was overlooked was "fatigue"
if something broke at say 21N then you would think that this thing is rated for 20N, but overtime it goes down to 19, 18, and so on. this sub may be rated for Titanic-level depth but overtime the whole thing becomes weaker each trip and extensive inspections are needed
and this was the 4th dive if i remember
As a more qualified engineer, this isn’t true.
I can confirm this “antibody” guy above this comment is in fact a qualified and certified troll. He also wrote a comment about hating water so do what you want with this information. Don’t even bother replying to him.
@@Antibong as a tf2 engineer main i can confirm the OP is right
@gnz11z Far more than 4 -- check the overview slideshow, they made like 18 successful dives to the Titanic
I haven't seen this channel since I was trying to learn Kerbal space program. Good to see you're still around!
Finally! Actual footage of the wreck before it was scooped up on to the ship.
This stuff, evidence... takes far too long to show the public.
@@KathrynsWorldWildfireTracking You know... you have to edit out the footage of the bodies, for obvious reasons
@@raffaeledivora9517there are no remains to find, it's all soup. Doubt you could find so much as a shoe
@@raffaeledivora9517 there were no bodies in this case. They liquified.
@@raffaeledivora9517you literally don't though
I worked as an optomechanical engineer . When I worked for Kodiak Graphic we used titanium rings to create the focus lens stack. The 3 lens & 3 rings were bonded together with UV cured adhesives.
Titanium forms a surface oxide layer that is not well adhered to the surface. To get the adhesive to correctly bond to the titanium, the oxide layer was removed by pickling it in hydofluoric/nitric acid mixture then stored in IPA.
Once the ring was removed from the IPA the clock was ticking until too much oxide had formed rendering the surface unacceptable for bonding.
Don't see or read that anything like this was done to the end rings.
The front ring is missing CF shards so this looks like a simple debonding failure.
Cameras being more safely assembled than a submarine is hilarious
@@c3cil3 That's the problem, the more you read, the more you realize that the Titan subs wouldn't even be qualified to operate in a swimming pool.
@@c3cil3Exactly my point. If we took that much care to mount the focusing optics for a 50W laser, the expectation is this would be the minimum bonding prep for a sub.
But what would a guy who also designed a 6000m proof sonar know.?..
The submarine parts were stored outdoors exposed to the elements, and the epoxy they used to seal the ring down was hand-mixed in a vat and spread on with a deck staining brush.
Exactly. The most critical interface was done by hand in an uncontrolled environment. His cost of poor quality was his life and four others.
It's nice to find an update that isn't simply a rehash of previously reported info. Thanks, Scott. Fly safe!
So are you saying you’ve seen that footage of the pressure hull crammed into the rear bulkhead before? I don’t think anyone has.
Something to be considered- there is a lot of flak about the way the rings were attached but the narrator did say the US Navy did the same thing so maybe there’s something to it.
I’m personally not a fan of Rush, but at least he was willing to put up or shut up. If there was a dive, he was leading it. I feel like he let himself get too jaded too quickly and he should have absolutely listened to the experts he hired, like Lockridge. The problem with “most fast and break things” becomes apparent when the thing that gets broken has you inside of it.
@@Bpwebber complete and total lack of info didn't stop anyone else from continuously posting more videos on this submersible for the last 6 months
@@Bpwebber They were saying completely the opposite, that there have been many videos made within the last 6 months which implied they had new information but didn't, whereas this one did. As for the other point, I think the consistent theme about Carbon Fibre in submersibles is that there has been insufficient research, at least so far as to make a commercial passenger craft. The US navy also presumably wasn't convinced by their test either since we haven't had loads of US Navy submarines made out of CF over the last few years.
i cannot be the only one who thought "here comes a sponsor segment for some learning platform" when scott said "I wish i didn't have to learn things this way."
That was a pretty smooth transition to the sponsor segment....
Having a platform called Brilliant sponsoring a video on Oceangate would be an insult to say the least
Scott doesn't do (need) sponsors 😁
I sailed on subs. Before a dive to test depth (our deepest depth) we would stretch a string from side to side in the torpedo room at the bow ... about four feet above the deck.
Sub hulls do a lot of cracking and groaning as the pressure increases. The inner decks are free-floating so they don't get stressed by the hull compressing inward. By the time we reached test depth, that string had drooped all the way down to the deck with about two feet of it actually lying on it. It's crazy how much the hull gets squeezed inward by the water pressure. Our hulls were built from HY80 steel (High Yield grade 80).
We always descended in 100 foot increments with phone talkers throughout the boat watching valves and seals ... carefully reporting any leaks or problems. Rig for Deep Submergence was always a carefully choreographed event. We HAD to know that the boat could take the pressure at least once every patrol.
Nerves of steel mate.
Carbon fiber is not fit for the purpose for that very reason.
What, were you in WWII?
@@kokomo9764 Do you think submarines where only used in ww2?
@@altairtodescatto top kek, the young generation is ruined I know
jeff ostroff, from here on youtube, back shortly after this happened, he showed a promotional video clip of them building this submersible and he noted how the were not in any type of clean/sterile room while applying adhesive between the titanium hemisphere to the carbon fiber tube section. and he said that he suspected it failed there, because it was done in an environment where contaminants may be on either surface or may get on the adhesive. very good observation by jeff
I saw that, too. He also mentioned the questionable use of glue between metal and CF. And Jeffs was a qualified opinion of an engineer inexperienced in submersible design or manufacturing. The entire management of OceanGate should be criminally liable, arguable for premeditated purser or manslaughter, simply because the ignored the advise of the experts THEY hired. But, IMO, worse, OG bold face lied to their customers and the public, and not just about this issue, out of simple hubris or greed (probably both).
The issue was the same as the CF when they were winding it. They were applying epoxy and laying down material on top of it - allowing micro-bubbles and dust and other things to get into the glue, potentially. Also, using a scraper to apply it like Bondo.. this needs machine precision, not putting enough on by hand and hoping you didn't miss a spot.
For heaven's sake, we build microchips in more sterile environments than that carbon-fiber hull. Sometimes I think this was simply a story of Icarus, but it's far worse than that.
@@danepatterson8107 Thats a really high Standard. E.g. we build Microchips in more sterile environments than we use for Brain Surgery. We are talking orders of magnitude difference here, in terms of room cleanliness, as well as the engineering prowess needed to reach it.
@@danepatterson8107Well in fairness microchips are vastly more complex and temperamental lol
Any employee who got fired is by definition blameless.
Moreover their record would make their hiring by another company a mark in that company's favour for investors.
About a year ago, Thunderf00t did a video about the Titan. He focused especially on the compression modulus of the carbon-fibre composite in comparison to that of the titanium. Not knowing the exact composition of the materials used for Titan, he used representative compression modulus figures from engineering sources online. What he suggested is that, at 400 atm, the CFC was deforming to about twice the extent that the titanium was. Given that the connector ring was a sleeve on the outside of the CFC cylinder, this put an incredible tensile load on the epoxy they used.
At the time, this was obviously conjecture, but it was reasoned out quite logically.
The failure mode you describe quite closely matches Thunderf00t's conjectured failure at the interface between CFC and titanium.
@RussOlson-pl3kf - I quite literally have no idea what you're talking about.
Is there any chance you could translate your comment into English for me?
@@nigeldepledge3790 He suffers from Musk Derangement Syndrome which muddles his reasoning.
@@FifinatorKlonHe is just cashing in on the musk hype. It's annoying yes. Understandable also. Hope more idiots like this sub guy can give him more diverse content.
I was thinking the same thing. I've not rewatched that video, but I recall him explaining the forces and expansions and the expectation of that that was the place where the failure would be.
It's a shame he's making himself unpopular with over continuous Musk bashing ( mean, he's not wrong, but it's been a broken record for a while), but he's so often right about this kind of things, it's very impressive. I really respect the knowledge the man has.
@XconeArtist - yeah, the Musk-debunking videos are starting to feel a bit same-y*. I like Thunderf00t's reasoning processes, though.
* But Musk really does deserve debunking on a regular basis because he talks an awful lot of bullshit.
Honestly... The simple engineering behind ratchet straps vs. How strong they are is absolutely impressive.
Best piece of engineering on the sub
i mean the strap is kinda pointless cause the danger is implosion and not explosion, so its bacially holding nothing. Notice how loose it is as well, that strap has no use hahah
Just furthers my belief that ratchet straps can do ANYTHING lol
@@hoagsmash4188 no like its literally the same as putting a belt for a grown man on a little kid, it doesnt do anything hahah
“I wish I didn’t have to learn things this way.” Sobering thought, can always rely on you Scott to give us the rundown on the science and humanity of things.
I find it interesting that the quality of this video is probably clearer than what 4 people would see crammed inside a little plastic tube.
When it first went missing and everyone was saying “there’s only 18 hours of oxygen left hang in there!” I was like “they’re a fine red mist right now, dunno what you all are on”
People hate to agree with this but what do they expect? It was shaped like a tube of toothpaste and they got turned into toothpaste, not big surprise.
Congrats? You deserve some kind of award
I knew they was dead hearing a minute of the story in the beginning.
I thought they had imploded the moment that I first heard about the story and suspected that the authorities thought so too but were continuing because they didn’t know for sure and because of that they search under assumptions of the best possible outcome because as a species we don’t leave our own behind.
A policy I’m 100% in support of. If nothing else it’s an excellent training/practice run for the people who do the rescuing.
I was briefly thrown by the erroneous report that banging noises from the crew on the interior of the submersible and that report filled me with dread because implosion was the merciful end. I couldn’t imagine the horror of being alone in the cold and dark trying not to breathe deeply as the air gradually ran out.
Then common sense reasserted itself and I remained confident that they were long gone to the implosion. I still maintain that it was a merciful fate.
@@mikoto7693yeah, it's good they investigated this even if the outcome was pretty much set in stone.
Seeing that thing on the ocean floor like that is eerie as hell…
I agree
This is so tragic especially for the young kid that was in there. I am glad it was quick and they wouldn't have known what was about to happen but so terribly sad
The video of that rear pressure dome with everything smashed into it is a grim image. It's a shame other people had to die alongside with Stockton Rush. Hubris can be deadly.
The teen who didn't want to go is the only one I feel bad for. The rest of them chose to go into this thing for a stupid amount of money just to ogle at the site of a tragedy.
started with hubris and became debris
That line "that is where the occupants would be" while looking at the image at 7:13 was shocking.
@@MarcusTheDorkus it's actually not true that he didn't want to go. he was psyched. that doesn't make it better, but. it made me feel slightly better that he wasn't wringing his hands the whole time, probably.
@@peachy_lili😮🫢🤭
"A crushing slab of seawater slammed into the ruptured pressure hull, tearing watertight bulkhead doors from their hinges like scraps of wet cardboard. The air inside the hull was instantly compressed to 750 pounds per square inch. The hull became a huge combustion cylinder, the sea a piston." - Robert Ballard on USS Thresher
A great writer. Seriously. Incredibly useful metaphors. Very few words wasted.
@@Ryne918 Terrifying.
Exactly what seems to have happened here. To think that there are several humans with the debris in the aft semisphere we see - I sincerely hope that the failure surprised the crew.
@@Widestone001 that is what makes the picture somewhat scary is to know in that cramed full hemisphere is probably where they find the biological matter that where left of the pasangers.
@@Widestone001 The crew didn't have time to be surprised. The visual cortex can't inform the brain of a change in the time it took that water and debris to hit the inner face of the rear hemisphere.
The weird thing is that the sub is also In two pieces, like the wreck 990 feet away. Just shows how history repeats itself
The strap probably kept it from flexing symmetrically.
OceanFate Titanic
To be fair, Titanic was build very well, it was the crew after the fact that messed up bad enough to sink even that.
This was built poorly, and even the best crew would have been screwed.
amusingly that french bloke was an expert on the deaths involved in the titanic sinking. now he has become one of them. in fact he probably expired nearer the resting place than any titanic dead. i like to think of his ghost asking titanic dead ghosts how the sinking went.
Ocean: I'm gonna chop that thing in half.
Ocean 100 years later: you're not gonna believe what I am going to do again.
Maybe I missed them all, but thank you for your explanation of events as I never saw it depicted in this manner.
Every youtube video I've seen so far have just had 4 seconds of video of the tail section which tells you nothing about what happened. I thought that's all the footage that existed.
That's the Münley difference!
This footage has only become available due to the inquiry being held by the US Coast Guard
@@ryelor123 right about what? Why does that matter?
@@ryelor123 Wow you must be so proud of yourself. Want a medal?
They must be the main character. @@killsode4760
I recently saw Tym Catterson's testimony on TH-cam. He was able to inspect some of the wreckage as soon as it came up. He ran his hand along the glue surface which bonded the forward titanium o-ring to the carbon fiber hull. The surface was very smooth. To him, that smoothness could only be explained if the catastropic failure began at the glue surface.
He thought that pressure would cause the carbon fiber section to flex at its center, pushing both o-rings out, weakening the glue bond just a bit. But with repeated dives, the bond is weakened more and more, until at some point cracks develop that allow water to flow through into the crew cabin at tremendous pressure in just milliseconds.
I'll hazard a guess hinging the front cap/"door" off the ring and opening/closing it with bolts installed via impact gun was probably gradually weakening the glue joint too.
@@Broken_Yugo Hehe
That joint was for me an instnt weak point when i saw it and you only need a very basic understanding of conection betwen forces acting on the material and its deformations to understand why this connection was designed by someone who should never have received an engineering degree...
This whole glue never fulfilled any function because it simply couldn't, it would have to have better mechanical properties than both of these materials to survive the deformations it was subjected to.
But laymen would probably realize more quickly that this is a death trap if there wasn't that glue "to glue things together"... -> the pressure was doing the job here but the metal conection was designed by someone with ZERO understanding of the topic...
like squeezing a pringles can until the lid pops
In addition to that, apparently the submersible was stored outside in ambient temperature for the preceding winter, where the temperature went below freezing. Any water present there can certainly do damage if it froze. Furthermore, the bond appeared to be fairly crude to begin with based on apparent videos during the bonding process (surface prep, adhesive mixing, uniformity of adhesive application, potential for foreign contaminants during application, and amount of adhesive applied may not have been adequate). Not to mention the layup of the cylinder seemed to be in only in one direction which probably didn’t help. There is so much opportunity for failure in that joint.
It always shocked me that the thing, while obviously strong enough ( CF and end caps ), was held together with basically epoxy.
Materials scientist here who's done a lot of work with composites. I called this failure mode as soon as I saw the schematics, shortly after the disaster. The tiny flange/join between the composite and titanium was a joke. At those pressures, the difference in elastic moduli between the composite hoop and titanium would create much more anisotropic strain on the joining section than a tiny flange and a bit of adhesive could cope with.
Duh…
Even if the joint somehow survived repeated missions to that depth, the slightest deformation of the underrated viewport would increase the stresses on the flange joint tremendously, a failure giving a chaotic spike in pressures around that entire flange.
The only thing missing was Coyote's Acme company's logo on the damned side.
I too have my anisotropic settings turned on
Seriously though thanks my guy for your insight 👍 Sucks that so many people crucial to important decisions are idiots
What's a better design that's still budget friendly?
I don't think there's record of a single expert thinking that this thing would hold up long-term. All I can find are cases of people saying this thing is going to implode and take people with it from the very moment it was announced. I'm not even an expert but I remember looking at the design (before accident) and thinking oh my gosh these people are suicidal. I'm a biologist, so I know enough about the basics to know when something is off.
Finally, someone using the right term, Crushed! not imploded.
Thanks !
As someone who's doing a masters in carbon fiber composites, one thing I want to mention that no one talked about is how they did the carbon fiber layup.
It looks like it was laid up like a coil pot or a single wall 3D print with all the fiber in the hoop direction. That poses two important problems. one is that it has to take axial stress and there are no fibers in that direction to support it, carbon fiber pressure vessels are ideally a +-55 degree layup because the hoop stress is twice the axial stress. The second major problem is that there is only one fiber direction through the whole thickness, which makes it really easy for cracks to propagate through the full thickness in the matrix, and even worse, the interface between the layers, which is even more prone to cracking, runs through the thickness.
Ive read that information about 9 months ago, its been talked about since the incident
Dang. What you've said, combined with other commenter's observations that the glue application was not done in a cleanroom, makes this a truly doomed build.
thamiordragonheart,
Hey guys, you seem to forget these things cost money. And the more safety and doing it right, the more money has to be spent. No way, Jose'. Hell, if we can scrimp on design and save a few bucks and come in under budget, hell ya ! ☆
No cross weave.
No clean room / clean equipment.
No autoclave.
And the carbon fiber was rejected by Boeing as unsuitable for aircraft, so Rush got it cheap.
Poor reinforcement from the titanium ring to the carbon fiber body.
Underrated window.
Cheap Chinese components that malfunctioned constantly.
Also, some people have said the machined surfaces were not properly roughed up for glue bonding. Wouldn't be surprising when we see the long list of failures in this endeavor.
It's amazing it got as far as it did.
The simulations and expectations that the vessel would fail at the mid point along the axial length of the hull is spot on. The assumptions would most likely have included things like homogenous properties for the fibres and filler. These can be specified and tested. The big issue is, unlike traditional 3D homogeneous constructions materials like steel, where the material can be inspected, tested and, if necessary rejected, even before fabrication starts, with composites, you are "making" the material and the structure at the same time. Thus fabrication processes / conditions are way more important than traditional fabrication. Composites are not 3D homogeneous, which is both a massive advantage (only have strength / material in the direction you need it), but also a disadvantage (you don't have strength / material where you may need it, but didn't know). Thus, any minor issues related to the construction environment, handling and others as mentioned elsewhere can cause a very localised weak point and cause the structure to fail at an unexpected place. Not easy to pick up, and with a safety factor of only 2 for human use, you don't need much to go squish.
Multi-degreed engineer here...the modulus of elasticity obviously differs between carbon fiber composite and titanium. To some extent, this can be compensated for by using different material thicknesses. In other words, doubling the thickness of the cylinder wall will roughly halve its deformation for a given pressure. However, the exercise of trying to match deformation of the titanium nose structure to that of the carbon fiber composite hull cylinder is complicated by various factors, such as:
*Precise modeling of the distortion of the nose section under pressure is difficult, as its shape is not a simple, uninterrupted hemisphere (e.g., it includes the viewport)
*Actual distortions of these structural sections will vary from predicted values in response to factors such as manufacturing tolerances
*Variations in environmental temperature will have some effect on material characteristics
Ultimately, any inequalities in distortion between the differing materials must be accommodated at the radial interfaces. Even robust bolted flanges would be challenged by the inevitable and considerable shear forces at these interfaces, but using an adhesive demands consideration of additional factors such as:
*Reliability of the mixing and catalytic processes
*Avoidance of impurities in the matrix or at the bonding surface
*Reduction of the elastic strain limits with number of cycles
Given the difficulties of succeeding with this type of design, it would have been prudent to build an unmanned full-scale prototype, submerge it to a depth exceeding the design depth by some safety factor, with comprehensive real-time dimensional and stress monitoring via telemetry, and thereafter perform exhaustive testing of samples representing all portions of the structure.
Tweaking the geometry to minimize the adhesive stress could be accomplished in a day with a 2D axisymmetric finite element model. I would not care to wager on whether or not they actually did this correctly, however...
@@lithiumdeuteride - *"I would not care to wager on whether or not they actually did this correctly, however..."*
I would not care to wager on whether or not they actually did this at all...
You would not have lasted long at OceanGate.
Carbon fiber is anisotropic as well, isn't it? I can't imagine that helped.
@@jdotoz Carbon fiber composite is anisotropic. I suspect the simple, straightforward shape of this hull segment (cylindrical) and corresponding layup scheme would allow for rather reliably predictable material properties for each axis.
Former U.S. Navy submariner here. I really don't have a problem with the CO2 scrubber at 15:28. On a Navy sub, the LiOH scrubber is a backup for the normal scrubbers. The LiOH was held in cans that resemble a tall paint can with a lid on each end. Pop the lids off, and the LiOH is sandwiched between some mesh. The cans get put in a holder with a fan in it. Not too far off from the one pictured here. If you loose power, the plan was to just dump the LiOH on the deck and spread it out.
USS Gato (SSN-615). Yup, that was all true. And a backup for oxygen supply was 'burning candles', those O2 'clinkers' would be HOT when you dumped them out. ;)
But the cans are not plastic and can't melt from the heat. And also, that's a "what if" scenario, and this is their main one. Those seem to be kind of key differences 😅
@@avalinah The basic idea is solid, but you do bring up a good point. The reaction with the LiOH does generate some heat, and that plastic bin is about as cheap and flimsy as you can get. I say the thing was fine as a prototype, but the real one should be made of metal.
Unless we do know what the actual scrubber was made of, what's the point of bashing on the prototype?
@@mikefochtman7164I can smell the freshly lit candle now. Waiting for chow in middle lvl passageway
@ScottManley THIS IS VERY GOOD ANALYSIS SCOTT & IT SOUNDS PLAUSIBLE ! ! !👌👌👌👌👌👌👌
Many details have emerged of how the Titan was handled in transit to the dive site in ways that could have compromised structural integrity. This included towing the submersible on a platform behind the support ship during rough seas. There also was no concern for the total dive cycles allowable for the design. Even more structurally sound designs involving spherical crew compartments have a max number of allowed dive cycles. This is why the two Russian Mirs - used by James Cameron to make Titanic and in his exploration dives back to the ship in 2001 - now are in a museum.
those mirs have an interesting history how they came to be and how hard it is. enough hard that usa thought finland couldn't build them and gave the green light then told to stop building them once they actualy worked, supposedly.
they also reinstalled the "O rings" on a new sub despite being warned not to reuse them on the new titan sub, so yeah all of those combined
Same with Alvin which Bob Ballard used to dive Titanic
Isn't Alvin still going, but is on it's 3 or 4th pressure sphere now? Think it was on no 2 when used by Robert Ballard?
@@tnexus13 Alvin was in the maritime museum in Cherbourg when I was there in 2022. Along with one of the Mirs as it happens.
Scott, thanks for doing this video. Let me preface my further comments by saying that I am not a mechanical engineer, but I am a automotive mechanic, with over 40 years of experience.
So, a few days after this happened, I watched more than a couple videos in regard to this disaster, because (like yourself) I was curious to learn exactly HOW it occurred.
In one of the videos I watched, (I believe it was filmed by a TH-camr, and his girlfriend, who either weren’t able to, or declined to go for some reason) there is a very brief amount of footage of the sub’s front cap being closed, and “sealed”, after everyone is on board.
And I distinctly remember thinking to myself “Uh Oh!”, upon seeing what looked like to me to be a member of the ship’s deck crew, step over to the cap, and begin torquing down the bolts on the cap with (if I’m remembering correctly) what looked like a half inch air impact gun. Sans a torque stick of any value on the tool, and I’m fairly certain he was simply tightening the bolts around the cap in sequence. In other words, one after the other in a clockwise rotation until all were “nice and tight.”
Again, it was very brief. But I do remember what little I saw REALLY alarmed me, knowing what I know about how critical some automotive torque sequences are, along with the associated torque values that go with them, as well. An example of this would be wheel lugs, and the lug nuts that go on them. I’ve seen cracked brake rotors which were the direct result of using an impact air wrench during wheel installation, due to what was obviously zero attention given to required values or specs of any kind.
So it’s my belief that it’s entirely possible that this failure MAY have been caused by uneven torque stress being put on the front ring of that hull during the tightening down of that cap.
Also, hadn’t that sub gone on a dozen or so dives prior to its failure? And given the “attention to detail” with the exchanger, controller, etc., I’d bet $ that they were reusing the exact same set of studs, and nuts to fasten down that cap since day one. These items suffer what is called “thread stretch”, which is normal. But given the risks involved, at a minimum the nuts should have been swapped out with new ones after every single one of that sub’s dives. I’m guessing the studs were permanently mounted in the ring during its manufacture, and may not have been easily replaceable. Which is insane, actually...
Well that’s my $.02 on this failure, and thanks for reading my novel. I’d love to know what your opinions are in regard to this potentially being the “point of failure”, here. Thanks for any reply.
The pressure is generally inwards on those exterior bolts and hatches. If it is watertight at 50ft it's not likely to become any less watertight at 1000ft.
If there was a flaw in the torque you might expect some water leakage into the craft but not an implosion.
So I doubt the order or amount of torque matters much on an exterior hatch of a submarine when the water pressure alone will force it to seal.
I thought the same thing about the sequence that they secured the cap. And the fact that the didn't worry about the top bolt.
@@jeremywalters2205I agree but I doubt they did any analysis to be sure
@@ericblair5731The problem is when you tighten the bolts, the ring-to-carbon interface is locally in tension. They were literally ripping the thing apart with how the front dome was tightened down.
When just one bolt is firmly tightened, the ring is locally stiffened up against the dome around the bolt, and is much less stiff elsewhere. So it will locally conform to the dome and not to the substrate it’s glued on. The local stresses can be substantial.
We may well learn, if anyone tries to test such designs some more, that the overall approach may have enough margin to survive reasonable use as long as the dome is not trying to destroy it while it’s being closed.
This is speculation on my part but any sort of an impact wrench is an absolute no-no at these fasteners in this particular design.
While I agree with your point about the water pressure essentially equalizing the pressure around it, uneven torque on the bolts could still cause stress unevenly around the cap, resulting in a weak point that isn't accounted for.
Genuinely, thank you for explaining and mapping it out. This event has haunted me due to no one around me is willing to talk about it and I had no visual to validate the visuals all the descriptions about this floated around at the time. Thank you so much.
I could listen to Scott go over engineering failure investigations more than I listen to music.
Ironic how the Titan went to view the remains of the titanic, and now we’re viewing the remains of the Titan
I don't remember if this was Japanese or something else but there's this thing, like placing an importance to what you name things? Like don't name something with something considered as unlucky name? Kind of thing. So I guess here Titanic just called to Titan.
@@privatesarusollamia4698 I'm sure the Tit will be more successful when it launches 110 years from now.
Both being destroyed due to pride is even more chilling. Titanic being deemed unsinkable and Titan being viewed as unimplodable. Rush was a arrogant fella who thought he knew more then others in his field. He can rot at the bottom of the ocean if be wasn't a fine red mist
So briefly Titanic vs Rich People 2-0
Leviathan surely doesnt want to be found😂
That home-made lithium hydroxide scrubber horrified me. The reaction of LiOH and CO2 is exothermic. And if it gets wet (humidity, condensation...) it is more vigorously exothermic. Even in a very well-designed (NASA) LiOH scrubber, temperature can get up to 70°C. The thought of having this reaction occurring in a off-the-shelf plastic container just boggles the mind.
Come on man! Everyone know how healthy it is to breath in burning plastic in an enclosed environment! 😂
Amazing people paid that much money to ride in it. Insane.
Reminds me of Rocket City Rednecks and their homemade subs. Their scrubbers were external to the vehicle and got crushed by the pressure. Filled the cabin with toxic gas that started to burn their eyes. Thankfully they did their test run in shallow water, had reserve oxygen to breathe from, and had a rescue crew standing by.
Not to defend that jerk but wasn't the photo of a test prototype to see if the idea worked? If so the installed scrubber could have been very differently constructed...I hope
On Apollo 13 they contained this reaction for days in a container made of trash bags and duct tape.
"The brain simply wouldn't perceive this happening before it stopped functioning" sounds more scary that it should
Well, if you've got to go, and we all do, there's something to be said for it being too quick to perceive.
Actually, I find this to be a rather attractive option for passing from this world to whatever awaits us. I'm not afraid of Death; I'm curious and eager for the next thing! I'm a wuss and don't look forward the Pain of transition.
@@BlackheartCharlie being dead is no concern to me, it's the dying part that sucks
it would be scarier had they just suffocated.
imagine being trapped in a tube at the bottom of the ocean while air is slowly running out.
being pulverized by 400 atmospheres of water pressure before you are able to realize it is the less scary way to go in my opinion
They never knew they died
I used to read a lot about air disasters and the prevailing attitude in the aviation industry mirrors the apparent attitude at Oceangate. So many disasters occurred in aviation because people warning of an issue were ignored or overriden for reasons of ego, impatience, arrogance and often because of financial pressures. This is how the 'O' ring on the Space Shuttle ended up failing and killing everyone on board. The technicians said they'd be surprised if the shuttle got off the launch pad and the bosses overrode their concerns because they didn't want to delay due to cost concerns and pressure from above. It's like the scene in Jaws where Chief Brody is slapped by the mother of a boy killed by a shark that Brody knew about. But, it was the Mayor who ordered Brody to keep the beach open in order to keep tourist money flowing in.
As we know it is a habit across the board in many industries to punish whistleblowers and cover up for those at the top. When you are having to repeatedly fire people because they are telling you that your product is too dangerous to use then you should think less about the financial and commercial setback and more about the consequences of ignoring critical matters. In the case of the Titan (what an historically poor choice of name for a sea-going vessel) they had numerous issues including low level failures with the carbon winding before the Titan made it's fatal dive. Because it kept coming back they just kept ignoring the issues. As many have said in aviation, nautical and race car industries it is that one last straw that will get you. Just one more run before you do a full health diagnostic could be one too many. For the Titan it turned out to be just so.
As a mechancial engineer, the most basic thing we know, in the early years taking Material Science classes is that CF is NOT good in compression loading (this idiot's sub); ONLY tensile loading - airplanes!!!
I was thinking something along these lines but more uneducated lol. I'm used to seeing CF used for aircraft and such but for a sub? Even I was sitting here thinking about how dumb that sounded
Even as a physicist who never even explicitly learned all about CF, this just made intuitive sense. Under compression, you rely on the epoxy, which is much weaker than the fiber
Except in golf clubs and pole vaulting poles.
Stress-strain curves need to be taught in public schools
@@tombryant52jumpscoach CF is a perfectly fine material for many applications that have limited stress applied and lightness is advantage. Submersibles is not exactly one of them though.
There was an interesting video from a carbon fibre guy pretty early on. The different expansion ratios of the rigid titanium and the flexible carbon fibre was highlighted, as well as the completely unknown fatigue performance of CF.
yeah i had heard of that idea at some point too, seems that it was spot-on
Does make a lot of sense. The most pressure around the center of the cylinder, but the most stress at the titanium and CF joint interface. I wonder if there was some delamination damage there from previous dives.
Carbon fiber is not that flexible. That's the thing I don't get about people complaining about it. Metals are flexible, carbon fiber is stiff. If you've ever handled carbon fiber it's rigid as all hell and prefers to shatter over flexing significantly. Metals on the other hand will bend.
@@Ergzay I may have misremembered the details but it was this area that was of concern due to the mismatch in materials, as well as the fatigue performance of CF.
@@Ergzay Having watched the construction video several times carefully I am going to say the glue joint failed. The surface was not clean when the glue was applied. The glue had been mixed with a thickening agent of some type, and the mixing was done by hand. The glue was not well mixed, it was visibly lumpy, nor was it degassed prior to application to a dirty metal surface. In the video the metal ring was wiped with a clearly dirty rag, and then it was touched with ungloved hands before the poorly mixed lumpy and bubbly glue was applied.
Thank you for taking the extra time to visually explain where the failures occurred. This is why I enjoy your videos. I don't have an engineering brain, so I am very thankful for someone who can explain it so well.
Fun fact, the little blue-green ball that's moving in the bottom left of the submersible footage is called a "Monkey's Fist" knot. They have been used by maritime men for hundreds of years as a way to get weight concentrated at the end of a rope. It makes tossing a line far distances easier. The inner core usually being made of rubber or wood.
Sailors have also been known to make these with a rock or a lead shot in the middle for use as a weapon.
I've made several out of paracord, with a computer mouse ball in the middle.
Though you don't strictly speaking need anything in the middle.
I am guessing they're used here to give the submersible's claw something to easily grab on to.
As a carbon specialist I can say that the technique used to bond the carbon to the Ti was wrong... 1st the 2 mating surfaces were too smooth
2nd the amount of epoxy used did not look to be enough, when that ring was lowered on to the cylinder there was no excess epoxy being squeezed out of the join and it didn't look like they had a press to seat the ring firmly and flat
It's disturbing they wouldn't perform such a critical assembly in a clean room, dust and humidity from the warehouse and the worker's breath is getting into and onto the epoxy before the titanium ring is installed.
To be fair that was the first one - the one that failed was done at professional facilities in a much less slapdash fashion but I wouldn't be surprised if there was still major oversights in the process
Other commentators have said this was the first hull, which they scrapped, and the second hull was more professionally built.
Surely it is just plain wrong to expect Carbon Fibre to be good in compression when it was designed to be used in tension...
Exactly 💯
Im really grateful for this video. I dont understand much about subs, but this whole thing has been floating around my head since it happened. Its just a very odd situation, its very hard to understand why someone would think that vehicle was safe, and its nice to know more about how it went down.
I've been in technology for 33 years, and I too have a fascination with all engineering failures. Systems I've worked on, if they fail, can result in a person's death, not just some web site outage, so learning from other failures is a key to my mental model. Presumptions, assumptions, requirements, blast radius assessment and failure modes are all interesting to me.
We always learn more from our failures than we do from our successes.
Scott, may I suggest, for the great unwashed like me you compare the pressure at the time of failure to "how many times greater" this is to when you pump up the tire's on your car. I think this will give people an idea of just how much pressure we are talking about. Thanks for your many blogs. I enjoy your prospective. Paul.
The titanium end rings probably expanded and contracted a different amount than the carbon hull when exposed to pressure. The loss of structural interface between the two as the glue ripped would provide a weak point where implosion could start.
Not sure more that the flexation caused the carbon fibre matrix to fail
thats what i've always thought as well as the cause was and now its really leaning towards that based on this video...dissimilar materials bonded together thinly with different properties under pressure....the reason why i think the 'front part' failed is the titanium hemi-sphere in the front has a hole for the glass while the back part dindn't......again this would make the front sphere flex more under extreme pressure while the carbon is rigid and have different flex properties then adding a third compound the glue/epoxy .....hence the failure on the front end.
The controller was probably the best engineered part of the whole thing.
Logitech makes some really good stuff, for sure haha
Good for gaming, but not for life safety. Id want something better built for when my life depends on it.
@@davidgenie-ci5zldoesn’t the us submarine use Xbox controls?
@@davidgenie-ci5zl meh what makes it not good for life safety? Was the controller even at fault in this event? IF the software was designed to work well with the controller then I dont see an issue with it. And knowing Rushs history of skirting rules and regs, hed probably have built a much worse solution
I don't think the controller is a bad idea, the sketchy part to me is that it's wireless. Why? Just get a wired one and don't risk stupid Bluetooth protocols failing when you are at 4000m below sea level.
One things for sure, you don't need to worry anymore about stockton telling anyone to "stop telling me what to do"
Actually, people told Rush what to don't.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver The Ocean also said it.
But it's impossible to argue when you don't have a mouth for it anymore. Or lungs. Or a finger to lift, or anything but ocean.
Very interesting about how you need the mated materials to be able to expand/contract at similar rates to avoid creating gaps/cracks, or unwanted flex.
I'm no engineer, though it reminds me about when people don't mix concrete properly to cut costs, and the steel rebar reinforcing it then has enough difference of expansion/contraction in relation to the shoddy concrete that the structure will crumble as the seasons and years go by. If mixed correctly, steel rebar and concrete expand/contract at either the same rate, or so dang close it might as well be the same.
It never would have occurred to me that you need consistent compression/decompression in the materials of your sub's hull for similar reasons. Very, very interesting.
It's something I never even thought of until this event. It's wild huh! Would be interesting to look up the expansion rates of both in high pressure environments to see the stark difference.
Rules for visiting the Titantic
1. Don't build it yourself
2. Get the best qualified people to build it
3. Money is no object
4. Don't build it , spend the money on a nice beach front house instead
Or more simply. 1. DON'T
4. The best advice. If wealthy to afford the beach house, have it staffed with fantastic professional eye candy (Able to do the job, proficient, and hey good looking doesn't hurt)....
and another .. its a grave, stop with the morbid obsession and respect the normal convention on leaving such sites alone.
@@Rabid747 Shipwrecks that are far easier to access become a fairly popular destination for divers. Empress of Ireland for example. Many died on that one too.
I'm not sure what the advantage is to being there in person, when for far less money you can make a kickass remote controlled toy one.
Man imagine being that kid, he was scared shitless and did it anyways for his father for fathers day, then he's down there and it goes dark and I'm sure there was some hull noises before it happened. Must have been terrifying. There's a little bit of comfort knowing he died instantly without any time to think about it.
Submarines implode faster than your brain reaction time. There no hull noises when implosion is imminent because the implosion will turn you to mush because of how fast it is
maybe not so premature to think that because the ones who predicted this was exactly how it would be found even down to the direction the CF woukd have been sent... also predicted that for a few seconds before it imploded the water would likely already had made it through the laminate on the failing part and likely 100s of tiny but ridiculously high pressure waterjet sprays would have cut them to pieces alive before the failure point was reached and turned them into toothpaste
Forgive me for being crude but the kid is the only one I almost feel bad for. Just like when a supercar catches on fire I tend not to care when rich children break their toys. I take a little bit of comfort knowing they never got to see the Titanic…
Democratizing deep sea submersibles is one thing, and noble, but not when you’re doing it to sell luxury vacations to see the Titanic.
There is no comfort I can find in that kid(19 I think) being guilt tripped by his father right into his death.
@@1RandomToaster I feel really bad that the kid was dragged into this if anything i think it should lead to a minimum age to even step in anything bar a reputable manufacturer or military grade submersible. I feel a bit bad for them all because even Stockton must have had some sort of inner issue to even act as he did and feel like other human life was of such low value that his mistakes would take him with them and he wouldnt need to pay the price for them. Buy a fast as fluke motorbike like anyone else does in that case, at least that way you know the chances of wiping out innocent people in your own prefered gig are minimalised. Its his blatant disregard for others safety i cannot get my head round.
I’m not an engineer, but the way Scott describes everything and draws it up makes it so easy for me to understand. Fantastic video!
Excellent and fascinating assessment of the disaster. Thankyou.
Your comments are spot on. From an engineering perspective, the matter of matching the elastic deformation between the hull barrel and the end bell is absolutely critical. So, the elastic modulus, the physical shape of those components, and temperature change (and likely other factors) determine that deformation. Any 'movement' between the two would immediately cause joint failure.
My opinion has been, pretty much as soon as I familiarised myself with this design, that the failure likely happened at the interface between the titanium and the carbon fiber. Like you said, mismatched deformation profiles under repeated compression cycles likely caused stresses at that interface that weakened it enough for catastrophic failure. My theory is fatigue failure of the carbon fiber at the titanium ring interface.
@@gre8 I think you can't ignore the properties of the "glue" either. It must have been thick enough to bring its own behaviour under pressure into the equation. If it went too hard and brittle it could've cracked compromising the seal.
okay so now we know that you dont make a sub that looks straight out of subnautica and expect it to go deeper than a seamoth
They didn't even put on a depth module!
Tbf, the reason it looks like something out of subnautica is because the in-game cyclops was modelled after the oceangate cyclops! (Seriously, it's in the end credits)
@@darkoakquarks8748 and the oceangate cyclops was (as far as I know), renamed to the titan
@@capslfern2555 yup. The CEO didnt want something like Ciclops 2, so he named it titan
@@MooMoozis ironically just like titan from megamind movie he failed because of arrogance
I absolutely know that you are correct in the aspect of the "window" and the difference in "compression shrinkage" of various materials. Our company designed and built the DOWB (Deep Ocean Work Boat) decades ago. I came onboard that program as a junior engineer for the electronics and motor drives, but they had had multiple problems with these mechanical issues. The DOWB had a steel-hull-ball design, with two windows, both with V-interface. Various window designs were tried, including "tiered cutouts" such as for multiple layers, and also some V-angles, and some "roughed up" surfaces. Various Glasses and Plastics were tried for the actual window. We had a pressure test vessel in the back laboratories (well away from the main buildings), which was commonly pressurized to 3000psi and 6000psi, depending on the tests. Well as you alluded, these windows failed regularly for various obtuse reasons (including glue, nucleated pressure points due to debris, just plain bad machining, crappy glass chemistry with debris in the glass, and same problems with Plastics). The eventual working design was pressure tested to 6000psi, and the DOWB went down to 6000-feet in depth (3000-psi) maximum record dive. I had a first-day-cover of this event, but unfortunately my house burned down in a Cal fire, and that document is lost. During that dive they also had problems with some other onboard machinery (which I had helped design poorly), and that depth was never attempted again.
The really ironic thing is that the Trieste descended all the way down in the Marianas Trench (deepest location on earth) in the 1960's. Auguste Piccard knew what he was doing; his son Jacques was the pilot. And yet, none of these so-called experts in deep ocean submersibles appear to have studied the Trieste's design. They keep making the same stupid design mistakes.
Recovering the bodies was a great strain.
@@RichTheEngineerYou talk as if the rest of the industry are idiots. They aren't.
I’m sorry for the loss of your home and all your memories. I know it’s part of California’s yin yang. Hope you’re recovering well.
@@RichTheEngineer As I recall, the glass porthole on the first Trieste partially cracked on that dive, but didn't fail. The second Trieste held up better, and now resides as a display piece at the Naval Undersea Museum in Keyport, WA; note that Google incorrectly labels it the "Trieste II" because the museum curators got confused and repainted the vessel's name incorrectly for the museum grand opening. It stayed that way for about a decade, but they've since removed the "II" markings after realizing the mistake, but not before Google copied the mistake. The reason the curators got confused is that it wasn't until the third Trieste that the vessel was actually named "Trieste II".
Excellent video. I've watched bunch of Titan videos since the incident and this vid has footage I've never seen before. Love it.
"I'm Scott Manley, dive safe."
All throughout the video, I kept thinking of Scott's familiar sign-off line. Ocean Gate did the exact opposite.😡
They accidentally staged their front hemisphere.
he shows the first installation, the second one they did themselves and they were not supppose to reuse the rings, boom there is the problem
The v is silent.
@@krozareq Kerbal Submarine Program
"You know, at some point, safety is just pure waste"
"You're remembered by the rules you break"
"We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
- Stockton Rush.
WTF, a bot stole my comment and now it has mores likes than this one...
The first two aren't terrible quotes, if you attribute them to someone else.
If they'd been said by Edmund Hillary for example, they'd hit different.
The thing is, you don't really know which one you are until you stop pushing the envelope. Everyone thinks they are Hillary, including Stockton Rush.
"Move fast and break things" is fine for making prototypes, but you're supposed to do real testing before actually risking lives on it. SpaceX has had a bunch of Starship prototypes crash or explode, but they haven't put people on them yet. In addition to launching prototypes, they've also pressure tested a number to failure.
Maybe if he took it as constructive criticism instead of taking offense, he would still be making quotes
To be fair, OceanGate would be a lot less rembered if they didn't break some rules.
They would also still be alive, of course.
@@Br3ttM @Br3ttM in engineering "move fast and break things" is always a stupid thing to do. It's more about the way you go around thinking the problem not actually building it.
"purchased some from Boeing that was passed it's expiration date." LMFAO! Savage!
That's just a fact dude. Not a burn
Lmao it's literally true haha
It is true, or at least I’ve heard it reported many times as fact by people I respect. Haven’t heard that it’s come out in the hearings yet, but haven’t been able to watch them myself.
Like food, there's usually some margin planned into such dates, so it may or may not have been an issue.
*past
Nice to here a lovely strong Scottish voice being a scot myself i love it well done big man x
I hear you have that annoying john barrowman Twang going on .. oh well ..
I spent 6 years in submarines in the mid to late 1960's. When I heard about this and how the vessel had been constructed just knew this was a disaster. RIP to those lost aboard.
THEY ALL GOT WHAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR!
The front didn't have any midwestern dads to say "that's not going anywhere" on the front.
Lmaoooooo 😂🤣
This wouldn't have met the Midwestern Dad test, so you might expect that Stockton would have rushed them out the door.
Need to use a couple bungie cords and give it a good slap, too. The whole ceremony is important!
@@101Volts LMAO this gave me the silly mental image of Rush trying to get the Midwestern Dad out, but he doesn’t know how to do the Midwestern Goodbye. Because he’s not putting his hands on his thighs and saying “well…” as he stands, the Midwestern Dad has no idea that’s he’s being ushered out 😂🤣😂🤣 There’s so much frustration and confusion!!
@@iagmusicandflying LMAOOOOO 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣