In the meantime I decided to go one step forward, I will test different size M3 inserts (diameters 4.2, 4.5 and 5mm, lengths 3, 5, 7 mm). They will arrive in 3-4 weeks..
If only I had all the measuring equipment… and IF I was strong as you! 😅 I guess I will need to wait 3-4 weeks to watch too 😂❤ Thank you so much Igor for testing - threaded Brass Inserts are so fun!
You will get slightly better results when screwing directly into plastic a second time if you first turn counter clockwise and feel the original thread before screwing in. This is far less likely to cross thread, which is what weakens the plastic. At least it is a contributing factor. The strength of those m3 inserts is extremely impressive. Great video and I look forward to more :)
When doing a bolt-direct-to-plastic test, it would be really interesting to see how wood (not mechanical) bolts/screws behave. They have much larger contact area with the plastic and should have a much higher torque resistance.
Hm, yes good point. Earlier I tried few times, but probably the hole was too small, because they cracked the plastic (layers). Since that I don't use them in 3D printed plastic.
There exists genuine plastic screws (straight thin body, sparse wide thread, button head), used in RC cars and e.g. game controllers, that are _perfect_ for plastics (limitations apply) and can be de- and re-attached (with a bit of care to use the existing thread). I haven't found good source for those though, maybe RC stores? I have moved from M3-to-plastic to nut-in-a-slot when possible. I _think_ it allows a lot more torque than inserts and is easy to assemble - unless the slot is more-than-slightly too narrow...
Great video! Thank you! I'd assume the last method is the strongest because the insert is cooling down naturally. The first two method will cool the insert down much faster because the table or the bolt will conduct the heat away. Maybe using something not so heat conductive like a piece wood will have a different result? Also I think the temperature of the iron and the speed you press the insert in will have some measurable effect on the holding force.
To prevent pulling out the threaded insert while tightening a screw it is advised to design the parts so that the insert is pulled into the plastic (inserted from the opposite side).
exactly, thats the test I want to see, though at that point I am going to guess it will be an exercise in which filament has the highest crush strength.
I'm always surprised that the threaded inserts are always melted in on the side where the screw is. In my opinion, it makes more sense to melt the thread inserts on the opposite side if possible. This way, the thread inserts are pulled into the component (just like normal nuts are used in 3D printed parts).
Igor, your videos keep getting better and better with the production quality. The content has always been top notch. Thank you for sharing your testing! I was curious if you would want to test putting the inserts in from the other side and trying to pull them through the plastic. In cases where I use threaded inserts and I have the option. I install them on the inside so I'm trying to pull them through the plastic.
I would be interested to see if the insertion temperature makes any difference to the strength of the insert. Perhaps a higher temperature may make the molten plastic conform to the contours of the insert better than a lower temperature. Any thoughts?
An idea for another test that I'm uncertain of the outcome. Hole tolerances for these inserts, slightly too small, just right, slightly too large in steps. Ideally they all should all be something like 0.1 toleranced increments on both too tight and too loose, and noted what size ends up being the natural press-fit in the ranges before heat is applied. I'm just very curious how much the sizing impacts the strength, and how much time we should bother refining it. It will obviously vary per insert model, but i think you'll get the idea. Also you could comment on which come out the cleanest, and maybe where undersized ones start trying to deform plastic into the hole underneath it.
I feel that most most methods of using threaded inserts on YT (including unfortunately this one), are quite lacking proper heat and pressure application. This is evident by looking at the gaps left between the melted plastic and the insert. This is evident by looking at the pulled out inserts, where we see there's only a small band around the middle where the plastic bonded with the insert. In contrast, a great example of execution is the Nukit Heat Set Insert Press by Naomi Wu. Despite this kit being overkill IMO, it showcases an effective and consistent use of applied force and temperature. I would be very curious to see how this affects in practice :) Thank you so much for the investigation you carried out in this video
I heard from another guy on TH-cam who works doing injection molding that these inserts are better being inserted from the bottom instead of the top whenever that's physically possible. You should test that statement. It does make sense when you consider the shape of the insert .
I'm glad someone said this, I always put mine in the backside. TBH I saw heat inserts and ordered a bunch and this is just the way I started using them just made more sense to me.
Really cool to see a collaboration like this. It's been great watching you make a space for yourself on youtube. Love the content mate. Much love from Australia.
@@riba2233 I think we will do. After Igor published his video today we spent almost a whole hour on WhatsApp discussing even more things we got curious about Brass Inserts… it’s insane: the more you look into something, the more questions you have 😂
It would be interesting to see if it melted in from the bottom leaving some untouched plastic above 2-5 mm. The diameter above the insert should be just a bit bigger than the bolt. Like 3.1-3.2mm.
I did the the other day with a mini blow torch and a long bolt for M3 inserts, worked great, I also used a soldering iron with no special tip and that works great for small inserts
You are making the best content on youtube when it comes to 3d printing and you should have many more views. I know you are putting a lot of effort into these videos and the low view count can be demotivating but I believe that with time you will figure you the magic youtube recipe that helps your channel grow, until then you have us, the patreon supporters!
Hello, Yes, we have a lot of common subjects to talk. Our conversations are never shorter than 1 hour. Thank you for your support. You must be expert too in 3D printing by now :-)
I have enjoyed your video. There are many variables to the processes of printing 3d parts, adding inserts and the testing. I would be cautious with any strong conclusions based on such a small sample size of 3.
With threaded inserts, if you want maximum strength you would insert the threaded insert on the opposite side and use a longer bolt. This way, there is a material above the threaded insert and it will be much harder to pull out.
check out something called a sonic welder. I worked at a a plastics plant. We used a sonic welder to put those exact inserts into a part that was very structural. We would do a pull test to assure the inserts were holding. The hole needs to be just a smidge smaller than the insert, the sonic welder vibrates it enough to push in but does not melt any other plastic. When you melt plastic its strength is compromised just a little bit. Also it only took about 2 seconds per insert.
Great video. While I was watching it, I've got an idea which may be usable in some cases, where the inserts will be subjected to much higher pulling force than usual. I don't know if this idea has already been used or not, and I apologize in advance if it has. In short, I think if the hole was countersunk from the back side of the print (if the geometry allows it), the front hole just enough to get the bolt through, as much material left in between (and longer bolts used), and the surrounding cylindrical area printed with 100% density, the bond would no longer depend as much on the capability of the insert to hold on to the plastic around it, but rather on the toughness of the material against compression force and the distance between the insert and the front surface. This may not be something one would use in every case, but it's not much harder to implement, at least where much higher forces are to be expected and more reliable bond is required. I thought you may want to try it and compare the results, even if the method stays reserved only for special cases. Although I think it can be used in almost all cases by just moving the insert hole to the opposite side and adding the narrow hole for the bolt. And using longer bolts, of course.
M3 is probably most common isn't it? In the first set of objects (red ones) even the bolt head seems to leave a raised plastic bulge on the surface but in the white objects it looked much more like a flush surface. Am I imagining that? If not, what made the difference? When assembling functional objects a proper flat surface often makes a difference in putting multiple assemblies together if tolerances need to be correct. It's my main problem with inserts...
It’s funny that, sure, I have A LOT of M3 hex nuts too, but I always go to Brass Inserts for M3 - maybe because it is so easy to just design a 4mm hole for them in the model (a nut takes more space). But for M5 and M6 I always use embedded hex nuts.
A lot of parts I use threaded inserts on, I use them as through holes. So as long as the design allows for it, the threaded insert could be inserted on the reverse side of the piece, then you need a through hole that the bolt can go through, threaded or not, of plastic, and then the insert goes in from the back side, so to pull out, it has to pull the insert through all of the plastic that should be solid, vs just pulling it out of it's heatset hole.
If it needs to hold up, I like to put in the insert on the back side of the hole. So if the plastic yields, the insert will only go further into the print instead of getting pulled out. Alternative would be to pause the print, put in the insert, and resume printing over it, leaving just enough of a hole to fit the bolt but still cover the insert as much as possible.
Testing with groups! Love it. It always bugs me to see comparisons videos with sample size 1. like, it's nice and all but you can't trust the results at all. This is much better
Ive had mixed experiences with marble PLA being softer and more fragile than normal PLA or PLA+. Could switching filaments in this test (red to marble) have a drastic difference when it comes to comparing the different forces?
@@GeekDetour i twist back and forth about 20° a couple of times while pushing down so that both diagonal "threads" are properly wetted and plastic goes nicely in the gap between the two threads, then I use the table or the flat part of curved pliers to ensure flatness
I'm curious why you didn't test the slighly sunken soldering iron set inserts with the torque? I would have imagined that to be the clear winner. Still, thanks for your content, very interesting stuff.
Another interesting test would be between various "gripping protrusions" on the inserts. "Slanted" like the ones you uesed in this video, and "vertical". I don't know the correct terms. Here's some "ASCII art" to demonstrate: Slanted: ///// \\\\ Vertical: ||||| ||||| Sorry for the crudeness. Being able to link to images would have been so nice.😅 I suspect the "vertical" kind would be worse in the pull out test, but it could be better in the torque test.
I always press them down using a popsicle stick at the least. Just something to flatten off the top and make the insert (and plastic that sometimes oozes up around it) flush with the surface. Metal is better though because it cools the part down faster.
Az akcentusodrol azonnal tudtam, hogy magyar vagy! :D Köszi a videót, tanulságos volt... A 3D nyomtatasban meg elegge kezdö vagyok, es ezek a tanacsok es videok most jol jönnek. Szoval meg egyszer köszi! :) Üdv, Tomi felvidékről :)
my experience is if i rotate the insert slowly while pushing in, it holds stronger. also if i can i push the insert below the surface level and then i push a bolt like flat object on it plastic will cover the inserts rim making it even stronger. this method can be applied only if the inserts verticallity not that critical
@MyTechFun I just recently found your channel, and I really enjoy seeing all this testing. I have always been voracious when it comes to knowledge surrounding my hobbies, and I got started with 3D printing at the end of last year. I’ve begun expanding my material choices and have enjoyed tackling some of the challenges of printing with them, so your channel is a fantastic resource for part time amateur scientists like myself 😉 I have been doing more ABS prints lately, and I’ve gotten into ABS-GF with my Bambu P1S. I just got a spool of PETG-CF so I’m excited to try some prints with it very soon. Thank you for these videos and keep up the good work! PS: you should definitely do more testing on heat press inserts! I haven’t had a project that needed them yet but I am always looking to expand my skills and knowledge base!
What about testing the strength on a inserted hex-nut ? either where you design a slot to push the hex-nut into the slot after the print or pause a print and then insert the hex-nut , could be interesting to see if this method is stronger than brass inserts
I wonder if epoxy or glue would work better or in addition to melting the inserts in. Also the heat from the soldering iron may be a key factor here as it may not be properly melting into the inserts outside kerfs. Either way, like you said those are very small inserts. For a stronger and higher torque load, use bigger ones.
Oh, 3D Prints in Resin we cannot melt them in… the only way is gluing the inserts. Have you watched the “Proper Extruder”? I forgot his name - but he made a brand new extruder with belts. The body was resin and he epoxied the inserts.
Very interesting! I was excited to the see the bolt being used, disappointed I hadn't thought of using a bolt myself. I use a similar but slightly different approach, and I'd like to think it's better than everything you tried. Similar to flattening on the table or with a bolt, I use a long, skinny, rigid flat metal bar (sometimes just the handle of my tweezers if I need something smaller). Similar to the table approach, it allows me to get inserts flat and level, but I can reach into places a table can't reach. I think a bar is better than a bolt because I can use the length to help keep the insert flush, instead of pushing too deep with the bolt and deforming the plastic. But the important difference is that I continue heating the insert for a few extra seconds, allowing more time for the plastic to melt, flow, and adhere to the insert. I typically press in the insert about 99% of the way, only very slightly proud, less proud than what you showed. I also twist slowly back and forth during the insertion, to force the grooves/ridges to come into contact with more plastic. I typically twist slowly one way for half the insertion, then slowly the other way for the second half. Not a lot of twist, maybe 10-30 degrees, rolling the iron in my fingertips. Note that I'm using a conical solder tip, which gives some grip on the insert and allows me to twist, but also makes it harder to keep things straight. Then I hold the heat for about 2-3 seconds while I fine tune the position, then quickly remove the heat and apply the flat bar, pressing firmly to make everything flush and holding it long enough to cool the plastic to a solid state. I know that sounds similar to the approaches you demonstrated. But when you pulled some of those inserts out, they only had plastic bonded to the bottom half of the insert. That was the portion in heated plastic contact the longest and with the most force, melting and bonding with the plastic. The top part of the insert was only in contact with the plastic for under a second before you remove the heat source, or worse only came into contact after heat was removed and a cooling bolt was applied, and I think that those methods prevented full bonding. In summary, slowly twist during insertion, insert 99% of the way, hold in position while heating for 2-3 seconds for better bonding, then flat metal bar to make flush and apply cooling. Oh, and before I forget, this works better with slightly lower iron temps - too hot and the 2-3 second hold will melt the plastic into a swampy mess. It'll take a few tries to dial in your temps, but you want them as high as possible without over-melting.
I am so happy Igor accepted to test it - besides, what’s the fun in using a machine? It is crazy he had to use a lever to use mechanical advantage… M3 inserts are so small and yet so strong 🤯
You should make tests with different soldering iron temperatures, I'm quite sure that the higher temp, the more melting plastic and then the more resistance to traction and torsion.
If you could do 1 more little test as you did all of them pulling them out. What if you can put the bolt through the hole and pull from the opposite side?
Fantastic video, you've earned a new subscriber! You should see if CNC Kitchen wants to run your tests (especially on the larger inserts) and see what data he gets too.
Maybe in different materials fist (?) But before that I ordered different M3 size inserts, to see what's the difference between 4.2 and 5mm diameters and 3mm vs 7-8 mm lengths.
Your issue with the torque test is you are applying torque while pulling tension. The tread creates pull as well. So for a pure torque test you need to clamp it in a vise and only try to turn the insert. For example by screwing a bolt through until it bottoms and have a hole in the bottom of the test cube to sit through. I would be more interested in how much you can twist from the underside ie same as on that pull test. Proper bolted connections are very strong but anchoring the material in the print is the hard part. The way you did the pull test was the ideal way to fit them.
Biggest factor is the temperatrure and heat resistance of the material it's in- whn you apply a load to the threads they heat up (Boyle's Law) and actually begine to extrude around the thread features of the insert. Put the part in the refrigerator and it can take a lot more load. Ditto fo a high temp material
If the pull is perpendicular to the layers (as in your test - pull is trying to separate layers) as opposed to pulling parallel with the layers, does that make a difference? I'd expect any of the heat-set methods that melt the plastic around the insert to be less affected by the orientation of the layers. Different inserts have different outer shapes to grip the material. I expect the inserts with large outer threads designed for particle board or MDF to hold better in printed plastic, but maybe the difficulty of inserting the insert into sufficient plastic to thoroughly embed the insert would be difficult.
If the design permits put the insert on the back side and print hole with clearance for the bolt. The insert will then pull in tighter to the material.
I don't see many tests done on the hex hrad m3 coarse threaded bolts like those in the packaging you remove from the bambu lab x1c and possible other models. It looks like it is less likely to tear out the plastic.
*Please use the same filament for all tests in a video.* Even a change in filament color (same brand and type) can have impacts on your results! White/Natural Filament is the strongest. But color often has effects on performance and other additives for "effects" (matt finish, marbling, etc.) can significantly change your print properties! Stefan has made a very good video about that topic "Myth Busting: Color vs Strength in PLA" from CNC Kitchen.
Random thought of the day, would it not be better to put the insert in from the opposite side where accessible and leave a step for it to press against.
have you tested squared metal plates with threading (>2mm thick) placed inside during the printing process? print model with internal unfilled pocket, put threaded insert (can be bottom glued), and continue printing until the detail finished (the top part should be with bolt hole to make insert aligned with it)
You could calculate the expected torque from the pullout force from the first part of your video. The mechanical advantage of an M3 screw is ~19. So to generate 150kg of pullout force, you'd need 150/19 = 7.9kgf at the cylinder of the screw. ≈79*0.003 ≈ 0.24Nm torque. You saw 0.9Nm so I guess it's because the plastic behaves differently under different rates of deformation 🤔
When using Heat-Inserts, I always try to set them from the opposite side of the part I want to attach, so the insert has to get pulled through the part with the insert. maybe you could try this way, too. Happy printing!
Curious if time heat applied AND the ideal temp for the material would make a difference. We know how sensitive different filaments can be for layer strength when not printed at ideal temps - I wonder if inserts into that filament might benefit from those target temps. Also time with heat applied... make a difference?
so what if you do both push it below the surface then flatten it on the table or push a bolt into it to create a lip to help keep it captive? only issue I can see is excess plastic obstructing the insert's thread.
to reuse a fastener in pla.. if simply threaded into the plastic.. run the screw down,,, let it strip out.. run that fastener fast it will heat up the plastic and fuse the faster once it cools down.
If if you have access to a lathe, you make a piece that fits inside your insert with a flat nail head shape round roughly double the diameter of your insert and then a little center drill indent for your soldering iron this will insure that your insert are flush And straight
What about the inserts that expand into the sides when you screw into them? Not the ones that bow outward and become shortened. I mean the ones that look like a bird beak with a slot in both sides and the inserted screw opens the mouth up, forcing the knurled sides of the insert into the plastic.
Ideally, the insert should be on the BACK of the part. That way you are not pulling the insert out of the part. You are pulling the insert into the part. I do realize the geometry of some parts excludes being able to do this.
Good tests but the results weren't surprising. For maximum torque, you'd probably be better off pressing a hex nut into a hex cavity, then heat staking plastic at the edges. Or if possible, insert the nut from the backside or an opening on the side of the part.
You shouldn't push the insert below the surface of the print. It should be flush. If it's below the surface of the print you risk causing it to get pulled out if you overtighten it. It can't pull out by overtightening if it's flush with the print surface.
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In the meantime I decided to go one step forward, I will test different size M3 inserts (diameters 4.2, 4.5 and 5mm, lengths 3, 5, 7 mm). They will arrive in 3-4 weeks..
wow you are such a legend 😍 thanks!
If only I had all the measuring equipment… and IF I was strong as you! 😅 I guess I will need to wait 3-4 weeks to watch too 😂❤ Thank you so much Igor for testing - threaded Brass Inserts are so fun!
Could 3dprint endure air psi from a compressor for a sandblast quick-connection?
@@dustargentum wouldn't risk it
It is better to do experiments on one filament, especially since marble PLA is good for beauty but not for threaded inserts
You will get slightly better results when screwing directly into plastic a second time if you first turn counter clockwise and feel the original thread before screwing in. This is far less likely to cross thread, which is what weakens the plastic. At least it is a contributing factor.
The strength of those m3 inserts is extremely impressive. Great video and I look forward to more :)
I was really surprised how weak the inserts were at first, until I noticed in the first set it was the _eyebolts deforming!_
This content is exactly why I follow you. All practical information that I need for my own projects. thank you!!!!
I’m actually surprised the pullout strength was as high as it is. I use inserts a lot, good to know
Me too! 150kg is pure insanity! M3 is so small!
When doing a bolt-direct-to-plastic test, it would be really interesting to see how wood (not mechanical) bolts/screws behave. They have much larger contact area with the plastic and should have a much higher torque resistance.
Hm, yes good point. Earlier I tried few times, but probably the hole was too small, because they cracked the plastic (layers). Since that I don't use them in 3D printed plastic.
@@MyTechFun could heat the screw up first maybe
There exists genuine plastic screws (straight thin body, sparse wide thread, button head), used in RC cars and e.g. game controllers, that are _perfect_ for plastics (limitations apply) and can be de- and re-attached (with a bit of care to use the existing thread). I haven't found good source for those though, maybe RC stores?
I have moved from M3-to-plastic to nut-in-a-slot when possible. I _think_ it allows a lot more torque than inserts and is easy to assemble - unless the slot is more-than-slightly too narrow...
@@kimmotoivanen I get my screws from TME. They sell Bossard's fasteners and they have about 30 different style direct assembly screws for plastics.
This guy is an engineer, amaizing channel, no influencing BS but tests and proper measurments. Never change bro!
Great video! Thank you!
I'd assume the last method is the strongest because the insert is cooling down naturally. The first two method will cool the insert down much faster because the table or the bolt will conduct the heat away. Maybe using something not so heat conductive like a piece wood will have a different result?
Also I think the temperature of the iron and the speed you press the insert in will have some measurable effect on the holding force.
To prevent pulling out the threaded insert while tightening a screw it is advised to design the parts so that the insert is pulled into the plastic (inserted from the opposite side).
exactly, thats the test I want to see, though at that point I am going to guess it will be an exercise in which filament has the highest crush strength.
You'd likely be better off with a square nut in that case
Holy crap that is waaay higher strength than I was expecting. Nice!
I'm always surprised that the threaded inserts are always melted in on the side where the screw is. In my opinion, it makes more sense to melt the thread inserts on the opposite side if possible. This way, the thread inserts are pulled into the component (just like normal nuts are used in 3D printed parts).
Igor, your videos keep getting better and better with the production quality. The content has always been top notch. Thank you for sharing your testing!
I was curious if you would want to test putting the inserts in from the other side and trying to pull them through the plastic. In cases where I use threaded inserts and I have the option. I install them on the inside so I'm trying to pull them through the plastic.
I would be interested to see if the insertion temperature makes any difference to the strength of the insert. Perhaps a higher temperature may make the molten plastic conform to the contours of the insert better than a lower temperature. Any thoughts?
An idea for another test that I'm uncertain of the outcome. Hole tolerances for these inserts, slightly too small, just right, slightly too large in steps. Ideally they all should all be something like 0.1 toleranced increments on both too tight and too loose, and noted what size ends up being the natural press-fit in the ranges before heat is applied. I'm just very curious how much the sizing impacts the strength, and how much time we should bother refining it. It will obviously vary per insert model, but i think you'll get the idea. Also you could comment on which come out the cleanest, and maybe where undersized ones start trying to deform plastic into the hole underneath it.
I feel that most most methods of using threaded inserts on YT (including unfortunately this one), are quite lacking proper heat and pressure application. This is evident by looking at the gaps left between the melted plastic and the insert. This is evident by looking at the pulled out inserts, where we see there's only a small band around the middle where the plastic bonded with the insert.
In contrast, a great example of execution is the Nukit Heat Set Insert Press by Naomi Wu. Despite this kit being overkill IMO, it showcases an effective and consistent use of applied force and temperature.
I would be very curious to see how this affects in practice :)
Thank you so much for the investigation you carried out in this video
I heard from another guy on TH-cam who works doing injection molding that these inserts are better being inserted from the bottom instead of the top whenever that's physically possible. You should test that statement. It does make sense when you consider the shape of the insert .
I'm glad someone said this, I always put mine in the backside. TBH I saw heat inserts and ordered a bunch and this is just the way I started using them just made more sense to me.
Really cool to see a collaboration like this. It's been great watching you make a space for yourself on youtube. Love the content mate. Much love from Australia.
Yeigh! I am glad you liked it! I am really happy too - and it was kind of overdue, because we talk together quite often 😆
@@GeekDetour you can do it more often ;)
@@riba2233 I think we will do. After Igor published his video today we spent almost a whole hour on WhatsApp discussing even more things we got curious about Brass Inserts… it’s insane: the more you look into something, the more questions you have 😂
@@GeekDetour that is great to hear, good luck with it!
It would be interesting to see if it melted in from the bottom leaving some untouched plastic above 2-5 mm. The diameter above the insert should be just a bit bigger than the bolt. Like 3.1-3.2mm.
I did the the other day with a mini blow torch and a long bolt for M3 inserts, worked great, I also used a soldering iron with no special tip and that works great for small inserts
Always enjoy your curious mind's what if and then you sharing it with the community. Thanks.
You are making the best content on youtube when it comes to 3d printing and you should have many more views. I know you are putting a lot of effort into these videos and the low view count can be demotivating but I believe that with time you will figure you the magic youtube recipe that helps your channel grow, until then you have us, the patreon supporters!
Thank you for all this support and motivation!
Hi, as Everson’s mom , (Geek Detour) I’m glad to know about your friendship with him, sign your channel and so to enjoy your vídeos. Great job!
Hello, Yes, we have a lot of common subjects to talk. Our conversations are never shorter than 1 hour. Thank you for your support. You must be expert too in 3D printing by now :-)
@@MyTechFun , I wish I were, I’m just a lover fan 😊.
I have enjoyed your video. There are many variables to the processes of printing 3d parts, adding inserts and the testing. I would be cautious with any strong conclusions based on such a small sample size of 3.
Very interesting, Thank you! I wonder what will the results when placing the insert from the other side of the 3D printed part...
With threaded inserts, if you want maximum strength you would insert the threaded insert on the opposite side and use a longer bolt. This way, there is a material above the threaded insert and it will be much harder to pull out.
I had the same thought when he was talking about the spacer/air gap on the top.
check out something called a sonic welder. I worked at a a plastics plant. We used a sonic welder to put those exact inserts into a part that was very structural. We would do a pull test to assure the inserts were holding. The hole needs to be just a smidge smaller than the insert, the sonic welder vibrates it enough to push in but does not melt any other plastic. When you melt plastic its strength is compromised just a little bit. Also it only took about 2 seconds per insert.
Great video. While I was watching it, I've got an idea which may be usable in some cases, where the inserts will be subjected to much higher pulling force than usual. I don't know if this idea has already been used or not, and I apologize in advance if it has. In short, I think if the hole was countersunk from the back side of the print (if the geometry allows it), the front hole just enough to get the bolt through, as much material left in between (and longer bolts used), and the surrounding cylindrical area printed with 100% density, the bond would no longer depend as much on the capability of the insert to hold on to the plastic around it, but rather on the toughness of the material against compression force and the distance between the insert and the front surface. This may not be something one would use in every case, but it's not much harder to implement, at least where much higher forces are to be expected and more reliable bond is required. I thought you may want to try it and compare the results, even if the method stays reserved only for special cases. Although I think it can be used in almost all cases by just moving the insert hole to the opposite side and adding the narrow hole for the bolt. And using longer bolts, of course.
Great info! I'm very surprised at just how much load these little inserts will take.
M3 is probably most common isn't it?
In the first set of objects (red ones) even the bolt head seems to leave a raised plastic bulge on the surface but in the white objects it looked much more like a flush surface.
Am I imagining that? If not, what made the difference? When assembling functional objects a proper flat surface often makes a difference in putting multiple assemblies together if tolerances need to be correct. It's my main problem with inserts...
another awesome and really useful test, thank you!
Embed an m3 hex nut into a print. Cheap, and depending on how much material is above it, should be very strong.
It’s funny that, sure, I have A LOT of M3 hex nuts too, but I always go to Brass Inserts for M3 - maybe because it is so easy to just design a 4mm hole for them in the model (a nut takes more space). But for M5 and M6 I always use embedded hex nuts.
@@GeekDetour if it achieves your needs, sure. If you need more strength, embed.
@@GeekDetour If you can, insert them from the backside. This is convenient AND strong.
A lot of parts I use threaded inserts on, I use them as through holes. So as long as the design allows for it, the threaded insert could be inserted on the reverse side of the piece, then you need a through hole that the bolt can go through, threaded or not, of plastic, and then the insert goes in from the back side, so to pull out, it has to pull the insert through all of the plastic that should be solid, vs just pulling it out of it's heatset hole.
If it needs to hold up, I like to put in the insert on the back side of the hole. So if the plastic yields, the insert will only go further into the print instead of getting pulled out.
Alternative would be to pause the print, put in the insert, and resume printing over it, leaving just enough of a hole to fit the bolt but still cover the insert as much as possible.
Testing with groups! Love it. It always bugs me to see comparisons videos with sample size 1. like, it's nice and all but you can't trust the results at all. This is much better
Ive had mixed experiences with marble PLA being softer and more fragile than normal PLA or PLA+. Could switching filaments in this test (red to marble) have a drastic difference when it comes to comparing the different forces?
Maybe you could try rotating the inserts as they go down, if possible. I think I heard somewhere that this makes a difference.
I twist the insert while inserting it so that plastic better flows in the cavities of the diagonal external ridges
How do you twist them while pushing? You are not using a Flat Tip?
@@GeekDetour i twist back and forth about 20° a couple of times while pushing down so that both diagonal "threads" are properly wetted and plastic goes nicely in the gap between the two threads, then I use the table or the flat part of curved pliers to ensure flatness
I'm curious why you didn't test the slighly sunken soldering iron set inserts with the torque? I would have imagined that to be the clear winner. Still, thanks for your content, very interesting stuff.
Another interesting test would be between various "gripping protrusions" on the inserts. "Slanted" like the ones you uesed in this video, and "vertical". I don't know the correct terms. Here's some "ASCII art" to demonstrate:
Slanted:
/////
\\\\
Vertical:
|||||
|||||
Sorry for the crudeness. Being able to link to images would have been so nice.😅
I suspect the "vertical" kind would be worse in the pull out test, but it could be better in the torque test.
I always press them down using a popsicle stick at the least. Just something to flatten off the top and make the insert (and plastic that sometimes oozes up around it) flush with the surface. Metal is better though because it cools the part down faster.
Thanks for your time. I enjoyed watching
Az akcentusodrol azonnal tudtam, hogy magyar vagy! :D Köszi a videót, tanulságos volt... A 3D nyomtatasban meg elegge kezdö vagyok, es ezek a tanacsok es videok most jol jönnek. Szoval meg egyszer köszi! :) Üdv, Tomi felvidékről :)
Great test! I can actually use this info!!!
my experience is if i rotate the insert slowly while pushing in, it holds stronger. also if i can i push the insert
below the surface level and then i push a bolt like flat object on it plastic will cover the inserts rim making it even stronger. this method can be applied only if the inserts verticallity not that critical
@MyTechFun I just recently found your channel, and I really enjoy seeing all this testing. I have always been voracious when it comes to knowledge surrounding my hobbies, and I got started with 3D printing at the end of last year. I’ve begun expanding my material choices and have enjoyed tackling some of the challenges of printing with them, so your channel is a fantastic resource for part time amateur scientists like myself 😉
I have been doing more ABS prints lately, and I’ve gotten into ABS-GF with my Bambu P1S. I just got a spool of PETG-CF so I’m excited to try some prints with it very soon. Thank you for these videos and keep up the good work!
PS: you should definitely do more testing on heat press inserts! I haven’t had a project that needed them yet but I am always looking to expand my skills and knowledge base!
I just had a thought. Have you ever considered embedding one mid-print, and the resume print covers the outer diameter of the threaded insert?
What about testing the strength on a inserted hex-nut ? either where you design
a slot to push the hex-nut into the slot after the print or pause a print and then insert the hex-nut ,
could be interesting to see if this method is stronger than brass inserts
I wonder if epoxy or glue would work better or in addition to melting the inserts in. Also the heat from the soldering iron may be a key factor here as it may not be properly melting into the inserts outside kerfs. Either way, like you said those are very small inserts. For a stronger and higher torque load, use bigger ones.
Oh, 3D Prints in Resin we cannot melt them in… the only way is gluing the inserts. Have you watched the “Proper Extruder”? I forgot his name - but he made a brand new extruder with belts. The body was resin and he epoxied the inserts.
@@GeekDetour no I havent seen that. But that's very interesting.
I would like to see the pull out results like the second test, but pulling the insert INTO and through the part rather than out of it.
I was recommended your channel by “Where Nerdy Is Cool”, I’ve subscribed, can’t wait to see your videos. 🤙🏼🇦🇺
Joe from Australia 🤙🏼🇦🇺
Very interesting! I was excited to the see the bolt being used, disappointed I hadn't thought of using a bolt myself.
I use a similar but slightly different approach, and I'd like to think it's better than everything you tried. Similar to flattening on the table or with a bolt, I use a long, skinny, rigid flat metal bar (sometimes just the handle of my tweezers if I need something smaller). Similar to the table approach, it allows me to get inserts flat and level, but I can reach into places a table can't reach. I think a bar is better than a bolt because I can use the length to help keep the insert flush, instead of pushing too deep with the bolt and deforming the plastic.
But the important difference is that I continue heating the insert for a few extra seconds, allowing more time for the plastic to melt, flow, and adhere to the insert. I typically press in the insert about 99% of the way, only very slightly proud, less proud than what you showed. I also twist slowly back and forth during the insertion, to force the grooves/ridges to come into contact with more plastic. I typically twist slowly one way for half the insertion, then slowly the other way for the second half. Not a lot of twist, maybe 10-30 degrees, rolling the iron in my fingertips. Note that I'm using a conical solder tip, which gives some grip on the insert and allows me to twist, but also makes it harder to keep things straight. Then I hold the heat for about 2-3 seconds while I fine tune the position, then quickly remove the heat and apply the flat bar, pressing firmly to make everything flush and holding it long enough to cool the plastic to a solid state.
I know that sounds similar to the approaches you demonstrated. But when you pulled some of those inserts out, they only had plastic bonded to the bottom half of the insert. That was the portion in heated plastic contact the longest and with the most force, melting and bonding with the plastic. The top part of the insert was only in contact with the plastic for under a second before you remove the heat source, or worse only came into contact after heat was removed and a cooling bolt was applied, and I think that those methods prevented full bonding.
In summary, slowly twist during insertion, insert 99% of the way, hold in position while heating for 2-3 seconds for better bonding, then flat metal bar to make flush and apply cooling. Oh, and before I forget, this works better with slightly lower iron temps - too hot and the 2-3 second hold will melt the plastic into a swampy mess. It'll take a few tries to dial in your temps, but you want them as high as possible without over-melting.
Would be interesting to know if the heat insert patterns have any affect on these results also
Great collaboration!
I am so happy Igor accepted to test it - besides, what’s the fun in using a machine? It is crazy he had to use a lever to use mechanical advantage… M3 inserts are so small and yet so strong 🤯
@GeekDetour igors Videos are amazing so much time invested into the craft.
@@Seaofjitsu I totally agree :)
You should make tests with different soldering iron temperatures, I'm quite sure that the higher temp, the more melting plastic and then the more resistance to traction and torsion.
Hello. Currently I am testing different sizes (video in less than 1 week). After this probably the effect of the temperature and hole size.
@@MyTechFun I'll stay tuned.
@@MyTechFun There are also different heights for the same thread size. m4-d6 up to 12mm for example
Can you put the insert in the far side, you would then have to pull it thru the object. I would guess far stronger?
Try using the hole compensation built into Orca slicer and or Bambu slicer.
If you could do 1 more little test as you did all of them pulling them out. What if you can put the bolt through the hole and pull from the opposite side?
What about heat insert on the backside of the hole and the screw inserted from the opposite side?
Great informative and entertaining video. Thanks 🙏.
Would be interesting to see how strong it is putting epoxy in the hole and then the insert and letting the epoxy cure. Does it make much difference ?
Fantastic video, you've earned a new subscriber!
You should see if CNC Kitchen wants to run your tests (especially on the larger inserts) and see what data he gets too.
You should compare these to a paused print and captive nut then continued print to see how much difference it makes.
Great test! Do you think you could try it against normal vs carbon fiber filled filaments?
Maybe in different materials fist (?) But before that I ordered different M3 size inserts, to see what's the difference between 4.2 and 5mm diameters and 3mm vs 7-8 mm lengths.
@@MyTechFunit seems you will be taking off Brass Inserts for a while until we are all happy 😂❤
Your issue with the torque test is you are applying torque while pulling tension. The tread creates pull as well. So for a pure torque test you need to clamp it in a vise and only try to turn the insert. For example by screwing a bolt through until it bottoms and have a hole in the bottom of the test cube to sit through.
I would be more interested in how much you can twist from the underside ie same as on that pull test.
Proper bolted connections are very strong but anchoring the material in the print is the hard part. The way you did the pull test was the ideal way to fit them.
Biggest factor is the temperatrure and heat resistance of the material it's in- whn you apply a load to the threads they heat up (Boyle's Law) and actually begine to extrude around the thread features of the insert. Put the part in the refrigerator and it can take a lot more load. Ditto fo a high temp material
If the pull is perpendicular to the layers (as in your test - pull is trying to separate layers) as opposed to pulling parallel with the layers, does that make a difference?
I'd expect any of the heat-set methods that melt the plastic around the insert to be less affected by the orientation of the layers.
Different inserts have different outer shapes to grip the material. I expect the inserts with large outer threads designed for particle board or MDF to hold better in printed plastic, but maybe the difficulty of inserting the insert into sufficient plastic to thoroughly embed the insert would be difficult.
If the design permits put the insert on the back side and print hole with clearance for the bolt. The insert will then pull in tighter to the material.
I don't see many tests done on the hex hrad m3 coarse threaded bolts like those in the packaging you remove from the bambu lab x1c and possible other models.
It looks like it is less likely to tear out the plastic.
*Please use the same filament for all tests in a video.*
Even a change in filament color (same brand and type) can have impacts on your results!
White/Natural Filament is the strongest. But color often has effects on performance and other additives for "effects" (matt finish, marbling, etc.) can significantly change your print properties!
Stefan has made a very good video about that topic "Myth Busting: Color vs Strength in PLA" from CNC Kitchen.
Random thought of the day, would it not be better to put the insert in from the opposite side where accessible and leave a step for it to press against.
have you tested squared metal plates with threading (>2mm thick) placed inside during the printing process?
print model with internal unfilled pocket, put threaded insert (can be bottom glued), and continue printing until the detail finished (the top part should be with bolt hole to make insert aligned with it)
the screwing force will tend to pull out the plate, and the cross-section of the material under load will be maximum
Maybe considering the 3rd method (for strength) then paired with the 1st method (for appearance)
kudos, learned lots, appreciate this data
You could calculate the expected torque from the pullout force from the first part of your video. The mechanical advantage of an M3 screw is ~19. So to generate 150kg of pullout force, you'd need 150/19 = 7.9kgf at the cylinder of the screw. ≈79*0.003 ≈ 0.24Nm torque.
You saw 0.9Nm so I guess it's because the plastic behaves differently under different rates of deformation 🤔
When using Heat-Inserts, I always try to set them from the opposite side of the part I want to attach, so the insert has to get pulled through the part with the insert. maybe you could try this way, too. Happy printing!
Joesef is cool as heck! Got to meet him at a PUG meeting in San Francisco.
Curious if time heat applied AND the ideal temp for the material would make a difference. We know how sensitive different filaments can be for layer strength when not printed at ideal temps - I wonder if inserts into that filament might benefit from those target temps. Also time with heat applied... make a difference?
Very useful! 👌
so what if you do both push it below the surface then flatten it on the table or push a bolt into it to create a lip to help keep it captive? only issue I can see is excess plastic obstructing the insert's thread.
to reuse a fastener in pla.. if simply threaded into the plastic.. run the screw down,,, let it strip out.. run that fastener fast it will heat up the plastic and fuse the faster once it cools down.
If if you have access to a lathe, you make a piece that fits inside your insert with a flat nail head shape round roughly double the diameter of your insert and then a little center drill indent for your soldering iron this will insure that your insert are flush And straight
Well why don't you also test screws designed to cut into plastic (similar to sheet metal screws)
hmmm... Any advantage if CA glue is applied before inserting?
What about insert a M3 nut while printing? I know, you can not use it for every Model. But this could be MUCH stronger!
What about the inserts that expand into the sides when you screw into them? Not the ones that bow outward and become shortened. I mean the ones that look like a bird beak with a slot in both sides and the inserted screw opens the mouth up, forcing the knurled sides of the insert into the plastic.
trying push it in deeper. then seal the plastic around it with the bolt. will that help?
The low torque makes you wonder if pockets and holes in your model to drop in a nut instead of the heat insert are better.
I have found that using T nuts on the underside works much better than the inserts.
Ideally, the insert should be on the BACK of the part. That way you are not pulling the insert out of the part. You are pulling the insert into the part.
I do realize the geometry of some parts excludes being able to do this.
Does anyone have a method with any slicer or model trick to make just holes have a massive amount of perimeters?
What about adding Super glue to the hole before inserting the nut?
Why not go slightly below the surface, and then flatten, this way you have a little plastic encasing the insert?
Thank You
Good tests but the results weren't surprising. For maximum torque, you'd probably be better off pressing a hex nut into a hex cavity, then heat staking plastic at the edges. Or if possible, insert the nut from the backside or an opening on the side of the part.
What if plastic will be with glass or carbon fiber?
Solder iron, then use the bolt head to flatten the plastic to seal over the BOT
If you have an application like that, put the insert on the bottom side.
If you can, press in the insert from the opposite side.
In that case, a regular hex nut is better
You shouldn't push the insert below the surface of the print. It should be flush. If it's below the surface of the print you risk causing it to get pulled out if you overtighten it. It can't pull out by overtightening if it's flush with the print surface.
Hey, are you related to the SoapBubble Fandom Wiki? I think I saw some of your videos there.
in petg i use only hammer not heat