I think the best piece of advice in the whole video is "go practice". When I did the course, they suggested at the beginning of every season just take an evening and go practice some emergency maneuvers to get reacquainted with your bike. During the season when you're on your way from a ride just stop in to a quiet industrial park and do 5-10 minutes to keep yourself sharp. I think if we all did that we'd save a lot of lives.
Great point, except: 5-10 minutes? Once? That's nowhere near enough. And there is absolutely no excuse to not do many times more practicing than that. There needs to be a lot of repetition in order to change that into your instinctive reaction in an emergency situation. Without enough repetition that won't happen. How hard can it be to find an empty piece of parking lot or road and just do some repetitive braking manoeuvres? Why can't people do that several times a month? Sure, some people do lots of hard braking on the race track or sometimes on the road too, so that helps. But everyones needs to do a lot of braking practice. EDIT: My mistake, I misread the original comment and thought it said: "Once in the beginning of the season"...
Excellent advise. Every bike's traction lets go at a different point, so having a sixth sense of that point and how to brake right up to it gives you the best chance to avoid a bad experience.
@@pistonburner6448 I think this is a really good advice for most people. Of course we can do more, but for many people there is little time to ride in the first place. It's all a compromise. If someone rides once a weekend, they wont go practice "several times a month". It's unreasonable and most people propably do nothing - hence the 80% mentioned in the video.
At 71 years old with 50+ years riding many bikes long and hard, I’m proud to say I used yesterday’s ride to practice skills. Still crazy (and learning) after all these years.
I turned 71 today, and also have fifty years on motorbikes . . . plus many, many miles too. The ONLY way to keep up your riding skills is to practice them in a safe place away from traffic, on a regular monthly schedule. Regular riding just doesn't get it done.
@patrickfitzgerald2861 Unless you always practice while you ride, pushing your limits. I was peeling out in the rain all the way home tonight on the street, seeing how far my TCS system allows my rear to slide out in each mode. I ride gravel every chance I get as well, skidding the front and rear independently for practice.
As much as I hate saying this. 50+ year riding "experience" does not equate to being a SKILLED rider. Anyone who has ever been on a motorcycle for even one day is an "experienced" rider. A couple from my community just recently crashed after encountering a deer at highway speed due to lack of skills even though they been riding for many years. The worst part is, they didn't hit the deer causing them to crash. Sadly she lost her life. Consistently un-skilled riders react with panic rather than responding with trained and conditioned skills that have become second nature.
One day equals experienced,@@grounded7362 .? Not really, actually. Now for the story you tied that in with, that is very sad to hear. Educating one's self to optimum operation and safety when needed, is important.
What makes ABS so useful is not only it's performance in actual braking distance, but that it enables you to steer while breaking. Since energy is needed to change direction, you need to split the friction energy between breaking the vehicle and steering. And since ABS breaks don't use all energy to break, then of course there is room to break in a more optimal way. Most of the times it is better to bypass the obstacle in front of you, than stopping before it.
Exactly, everything is about grip and there is only a finite amount of it. So if you want to turn you need to get some grip from somewhere else, for example slightly less braking force.
Yeah every european seems to understand this, and every american struggles with it. Europeans are becoming instinctive "brake hard and swerve" drivers, and cars without ABS just cant do it, I assume bikes have a simillar outcome. If you steer and brake hard without abs the bike is sliding from under you, with abs you can just go around what youre trying to avoid. Its crazy how fast you can process a brake where you steer into safety. It seems to happen so fast, youre hard on the brake and pointing toward the safe area. Id go so far as people need to be taught how to do it properly during training so it becomes instinct from day one and never go back to a non abs bike/car.
@geroutathat And it becomes even harder in snowy conditions. But at least that is no concern for bike drivers. These days they dish out so much salt on the roads, so even people here in Sweden have forgotten how to handle it.
@@geroutathat This, but you shouldn't always swerve out of the way. If it's a bus in front of you or you'd fall down the side of a mountain steerability is exactly what you need, but if it's something as small as cat, you should probably just crash into it with as little speed as possible because it's safer than swerving out of the way risking to get into a much more dangerous crash. For example because you swerve right into a bus that you didn't see in that very short amount of time you had to react. Quick thinking is what people need there.
When I was training at my car manufacturers school, they taught us that ABS was never about stopping quicker - it was only so you could retain steering control because the wheels haven't locked up. Lines up nicely with Ryan's brilliant piece here. EBS was, however, developed to shorten stopping distances. Thanks again Ryan!
Ironic because I like ABS on a road bike for exactly what you describe. On the other hand I've had several incidents in cars over the years where the ABS has completely killed steering response negating the swerve phase in break-swerve-recover.
We also had been taught the same when we getting educated as mechanic. However, our teacher said that the best braking power is the milisecond or so before the wheels lock up. It is where the wheels are still rolling with the decel, but not too hard as to have the tire skid across the surface of the road. ABS also helps for cars as to make sure the rear doesnt lock up and skid around due to the transfer of weight to the front wheels. Either way, Im as a driver always glad to have the ABS on my car, or rather the cars Im driving, as more to be able to have steering control if I need it
exactly this , but those people with big egos think they are better than the computer on their bikes/cars . ABS is all about control and if you think you are that good you don't need ABS then you will never activate it while riding because instinctively you will be braking at maximum coefficient of grip and never lock a wheel.
However, proper training is negated with ABS. People don't disable ABS to practice. I remember before ABS practicing on my road bike to the point of skidding the front tire, but not locking it up. Also learned to drift both front and rear. That was a lot of practice. Most people will not take it that far and I think the abs overall is probably safer based on the level of skill most riders achieve.
But why do you have to practice more with ABS! if its better it should make it easier (less practice). Until they improve it, no thanks I'll do it the old school way hasn't failed me yet.@@thomashanson3476
@@ScottDukesRealEstateWhen i got on the bike with ABS i did some braking training to find out how ABS behaves and where it starts to regulate so i can get as close to possible so it almost never needs phase 3. Its also a good safety net to train without crashing. Most bikers never even tried to do an emergency stop with their non ABS bikes. I see how most brake on the track and its not very good.
@@ScottDukesRealEstate ; same with flying aircraft, many just want the fun stuff, so neglect the incipient stall-spin, and glide/short field practice approaches... Learning and honing the basics sets one up for great disaster responsiveness.
There is a quite difference between different abs systems and settings. On track S1000RR road settings on ABS is definetly worse than human but throw that to racier setup and you are out braking most of the riders on fast group.
BMW GS has linked braking. You pull on the brake lever and both the front and rear brakes are applied (at different ratios). In a panic, I’ll take the ABS.
Very true that the "race" ABS on supersport bikes will outperform humans. They will let you stoppie and back the rear in, so there's really nothing to gain by turning it off. Unfortunately these advanced ABS systems are not that common on motorcycles en masse. ~RF9
The key takeaway from this video and what everyone should know about ABS is that it doesn't necessarily make your braking distance shorter, especially if you're a skilled rider. Instead, it allows you to steer your bike under braking, which may allow you to evade obstacles.
You still need to learn how to steer. Target fixation will become a big problem if someone has not practised or made mistakes before an emergency situation.
You can't really brake and steer on a motorbike, it doesn't work like that - what ABS does is keep the bike upright under max braking. Something a lot of people overlook and one of its major advantages. Many crashes just don't happen now as people grab a handful of front brake and it just stops without crashing down to one side - providing they don't hit anything.
Best summary on Bike ABS ever. I've become comfortable with threshold braking for some years now, but on my new bike I like to use locking the ABS on the gravelly or the wet grassy parts of my driveway, so that I can learn to feel at what levels of deceleration the grip on grass or gravel will fail. For some reason, these experiments have given me more confidence on my old non-ABS bike.
When you flirt with loss of traction, even with an ABS system helping you out, you're still practising riding that edge, so it makes perfect sense it makes you feel more confident on the other bike, you're more practised on the feel of that edge.
people really don't understand the importance of practicing and unfortunately for some the realization of the difference between panic instincts and wishful thinking comes too late... great example for the use of ABS
go ahead and test the abs on a straight proper EMPTY road. You will be surprised how much you have to pull the lever for it to kick in. Its good to get an actual feeling for it. You will also get a very good feeling for how much stopping power your brakes and tires actually have.
Great job! But Ryan should try a linked braking system like my BMW R1200RS has. You only need to grab the front brake lever and the back brake operates too. I never use the back brake except in town, when the braking with the linked system is sometimes just too much. In an emergency just pull the lever: without the need to consider the back wheel your brain has more time to think about steering out of trouble. Needless to say, the linked Brembo system gives astonishing braking power: this 525 pound bike stops on a dime!
As a European that had to go through a driving school to get a license I'm a little bit shocked that so few seem to use the front brakes. Emergency breaking is a dedicated topic in lessons and the final test and you have to use both brakes at the same time.
Same from the UK, where you fail the emergency stop if you don't use progressive braking, and if you lock the rear. By Americans thinks its against their right to freedom to make them learn
It's the same in the US. The 80% statistic is just those that crashed, not those that avoided an accident. It is still fairly common to hear the "rear brake only" advice, but it is covered completely as a myth in the BRC school
Yeah. Through my A2 and Acellerated Access lessons, they teach, little bit of front, little bit of rear, progressively squeeze the front, in that quick order for emergency braking.
I was surprised too that people in USA say you don't use front brake etc. I get it's more tricky but at city speed there is no reason to use just one, worse brake (the rear)
@@cyjanek7818 I've only been riding for like two months and I'm pretty sure I would've already crashed into something on my commute if I only used the rear brakes.
It’s good to see that this reinforces something I learnt from a riding instructor. It’s not about practicing until you can do something. It’s about practicing until you can’t not do it. Keep your head up, apply increasing pressure on the lever until the threshold, then hold until stopped.
also, pump the rear before in order to transfer weight to the front, for better grip when you slam both at the top pressure. Oh if i remember that sweet spot! The bike just squats and stops!
My Dad used to say an amateur practices until he gets it right, a professional until he doesn't get it wrong. It took me a decade to really understand this.
Yeah i have this problem with modern ABS in cars. Most modern ABS systems have so much control that you can have the brake planted on the firewall and still change directions because the computers use brake vectoring to control the cars orientation. But I learnt to drive with cars without ABS or with old ABS systems which means when i turn the wheel i can't help but lift my braking foot slightly to allow the front wheels to unlock and turn allowing the car to change directions. This is less efficient than the modern ABS system can do it because its binary on all 4 wheels and cant use the brakes to rotate the car. But I have to actually concerntrate to not do it and trust the car will do the work for me better than I can. And those systems will be getting to the point where they can manage to brake better on loose surfaces which old ABS systems can't manage. But it's not something youll see in bikes any time soon.
The problem in my opinion is that its a very unusual situation, if you practice only in a controlled environment you have time to plan your moves and are ready for it, while in the real world a situation could occur so fast that you have no time to think about how you brake and in these situations ABS allows you to dump the brake…
as a bicyclist, when I need to stop I will often purposefully do a controlled panic stop to make sure I always have a good feeling for how much front brake I can safely apply for maximum stopping power. It’s definitely saved me in a lot of situations when I needed to avoid danger in front of me.
Yes, bicyclist's just have no ABS. Which means they have a massive stopping distance, skidding or fly over the handlebars if they do it wrong. Only real threshold braking can save you in a dime. I instinctively move myself backwards as much as possible (to avoid a stoppie) when braking, also I gently push the front brake to not lock it up and prevent a slideout or going over the bars.
@@joneinarmattiasvisser6113 LOL a quick google for "bicycle abs" (disc brakes have become so common, someone has to have tried, right?) yielded - exercise videos on how to improve your six-pack by doing bicycle crunch. :) (sad trombone) @omgmrj Practicing before you have to in an emergency is pretty much the message of this video, I can only say, kudos to you!
That's why I love offroad riding/racing. It taught me to panic brake with the front brakes, lots of the time hard enough to actually lock up the front wheel on dirt and slide it for a foot or 2.
Same with on-road racing. (minus the part about locking up & sliding the front). All the braking power is on the front wheel. Rear brake only is generally only touched for line adjustment - so it builds a very strong instinct of reaching for the lever whenever you need to stop HARD. And in stead of getting comfortable sliding the front, you get comfortable lofting the rear.
Many years ago when trail riding I was surprised to see so many riders "afraid" to use their front brake aggresively. I can only assume they had a bad experience one time and didn't want a repeat. Some days I used to ride and try not to use the rear brake at all so as to gain even greater confidence in using the front. Even today, when road riding, I find some people wear out rear brake pads more quickly than fronts. Not sure how they would fare in a panic stop.....
Another important aspect of an ABS: YOU HAVE ENOUGH CONFIDENCE TO PULL THE BRAKE LEVER AT FULL POWER! 90% of riders don't brake with enough intensity in less than ideal conditions like wet weather - until it's too late to stop. Then they lock the wheel.
Can we just take a moment to appreciate the production quality and how well put together this video is? I don't ride but I'd be lying if I wasn't captivated by the whole thing.
THANK YOU! This is what I've been trying to tell anyone who's spouted the "I can stop faster than ABS" crap. Unless you are practicing threshold braking regularly, you probably won't outperform ABS on a good day, let alone in an emergency. Most riders are terrified of their front brake. ABS is your bike inviting you to practice threshold braking cause it'll step in when you overshoot.
Though he made a good point about driving on snow. With regular braking in snowy and icy conditions you can literally feel how ABS releases brakes completely and prevent you from slowing down. And in such condition almost without thinking you try to brake to the point ABS starts to work - and after it does you release brake slightly. It doesn't even feels like "I am doing good without ABS!" - it feels like "I am pressing the pedal but at some point it starts to fight me back", kinda similar to stick shaker in case of stall warning. You release pedal not because "oh it is ABS and it is bad" - but because pedal literally starts hitting your leg like crazy. It never happens in dry conditions because reasonable braking is far beyond locking wheels. And pretty sure it never happens in emergency because you just push it in the floor and ignore everything about it.
You know,the next time soneone says to you that he can stop faster without ABS you might wanna ask what his first bike was. It will make you less of a clown
@@deadlymecury There's an unconfirmed rumor that on Australian gravel roads ABS doesn't really help. Yeah, it does stupid things on snow so I'm inclined to believe that rumor.
@@kampar82 gravel has a lot of friction though. It's not that easy to slide on gravel and it's not that easy to move gravel on top of other gravel. Maybe some really small fractions (like if you decrease fraction infinitely - you will end up with the sand), but for bikes usually it's not just gravel that is dangerous but small patches of gravel on asphalt. I can imagine that ABS can be activated on gravel easier than on asphalt - but I doubt that it will be even near in comparison to fresh snow and ice.
And even very skilled rider is not outperforming ABS on the wet, let alone doing so on random patches of sand. And this is like that since 2005, when ABS was rather basic, modern systems are way faster.
Thanks to the Sarge for investigating my "crash." If you want to learn threshold braking, check out Advanced Rider Training: enduroparkcanada.com/pages/advanced-rider-training ~RF9
If you're the diehard rider whose been on 2 wheels in a corn field since you were ~6 years old, ABS might not be right for you lol. I've had some close calls where I'm fairly certain ABS would have killed me because I was depending on being able to lock the back up and do a controlled fish tail around an obstacle; or perhaps I'm using the fishtail to institute a quicker/safer controlled lay down of the bike because sometimes sliding her to distance yourself from the motorcycle is the only option that's left. This has saved me on asphalt more than once. But should everyone expect this level of self control. Hell no, even I know better. So my summary take-away is simple.. ABS good at 55+mph... ABS bad when slower. I wish I could tell the bike when to turn it on and off based on my desired speed ranges.
Try it in the WET...That is where ABS wins...A lock up will slide you hard in the wet. That's why ABS exists...to stop a wheel lock up and the lethal slide crash in the wet. Testing ABS in the dry is like testing a waterproof jacket in the Sahara Desert. PS: I am a full time courier with bitter experience of the latter while avoiding a car that, pulled out in the wet.
My biggest thing: if you have ABS, you can practice braking without fear. Youre not going to tuck the front and crash, you can keep squeezing that fromt lever ever harder till the ABS says "ok, thats it". Ive NEVER met anyone whonpractices emergency braking without ABS till the front actually starts to lock.
In Hungary you have to take the first part of the driving test with no ABS and the final part is crash avoidance (with counter steering) and emergency braking. You have to speed up to 50 then stop in 14 meters, if you lock up your tires you fail.
That's more or less the thing. Running into things, being run over by things and running off of things are what kill people typically. Yes, there are freak accidents like that dude that got his head ripped off by a downed power line, but there is a point where no amount of preparation and safe practices can save you. Fortunately, those are rare cases.
That's like saying being pushed into the ocean without a flotation device isn't what kills people; it's the accumulation of water in the lungs. Is that the ultimate cause, viewed in isolation? Sure. But it's a completely meaningless distinction, and no judge in the world would buy your reasoning if that's your defense. Semantically, if you wanted to tie yourself into a knot, you could argue that travelling at 150 km/h isn't what kills you, sure. But the fact of the matter is that a sudden stop at 80 km/h is less deadly than a sudden stop at 150 km/h. Due to a thing called physics, the stop cannot be viewed in isolation; it is completely dependent upon the preceding speed going into it. Furthermore, a sudden stop isn't always braking. Even if you think you're in the top percentile of drivers/riders in the world (which is pretty common, it would seem) and so your braking technique and reflexes are astounding, you can still find yourself in a situation where, due to someone else's mistake, you're completely blindsided.
This is why a lack of education around what technology can and cannot do is dangerous for beginner riders, every noob thinks they can handle a Panigale V4 because ABS and traction control will save me.
I see I am not the only guy who has his morning coffee watching the latest motorcycle videos. Lol. Great topic Ryan. In my experience very few riders ever venture into an used parking lot and practice emergency braking. This video may provoke a few more into doing so. Well done Ryan and thanks again for the great content.
I love everything about this video, it's fantastic. I only wish you had touched on the difference with ABS in inclement weather and road surfaces or while turning. That is where I think ABS really shines.
Unfortunately that detail would have either made the video overloaded or 20 minutes long. The effectiveness of the message is in keeping it short and encouraging riders to become more knowledgeable through practice.
@@ccibinel For sure, I understand why he didn't get into that part of the conversation. I still wish it could have been worked in somehow, Or maybe have another video specifically about it.
Great feedback for a followup video - thanks! I shall also acquire a less pristine motorcycle if we're going to be testing threshold braking on wet oily roads haha. ~RF9
A good piece of advice for non-abs beginners would be to ride always with two fingers on brake lever. This way instead of grabbing a lever in panic and locking a wheel, you are always ready to gradually squeze the lever. For some it may seem uncomfortable, but after a while it becomes natural, and saved me a few times already.
Exactly. I ride with my index finger on the fe501 lever. I’ve only had three emergency panic brakes(to avoid deer) and every situation was the exact same- Clutch in, front brake applied just enough to keep the rear tire from completely coming off the pavement, and rear braking just hard enough to make the tire chirp. Anyone who heard me would assume I have(I don’t) ABS by the chirping. Not because I’m applying too much rear brake, but because the rear end is nearly floating and wanting to come around. For some reason I twisted the throttle and the bike was revving all three times. Maybe for a bit of additional pull on my lonely index finger.
Riding offroad helps alot with riding on road, too. When riding offroad a huge part is brake control, especially on slippery ground. It's common for wheels to lock up and you learn how to deal with these situations.
When I started riding I was really into dominating the vehicle. It was quite fun for me to try things and push a motorcycle to some degree of a limit. I spent quite a lot of time on a bike, so it also helped entertaining myself. Sure, I fell quite a few times, but never anything serious. Now I've heard of a progressive braking and tried it, again, in a daily riding just for the sake of entertainment and feeling good about my skill. But then that one day, I was with my then girlfriend out on a highway and that truck on the line right to me suddenly changed the line without any turning signal. Now I was going about a 100 km/h, and a right line was going around 50 which is the reason he changed the line. Just got tired of going slow, so he just went for it as a proper asshole. Obviously, being a truck, he couldn't reach the speed of a lane so I had to go into a sudden emergency braking. I had maybe like 20-30 meters to reduce my speed by half. And I didn't have ABS on my bike. Had I pushed too hard, I'd fall and the car behind me would've gone over me. Not enough and I would go under the truck. That was that one moment when I got seriously scared. The most I have ever been on a bike. Mostly because I had a very dear passenger behind. I couldn't have reacted to it, had I not practiced those emergency braking for "fun". I went straight by the book, applying progressive force on both levers, but my mind was out scared for its life. My hands did everything as if by themselves. The point I try to make here is that you have to practise. If it's fun for you then you can do it just when you're out, having a nice daily ride. If it's not, then take some time and practise anyway. It will save your life someday and probably others, too.
Progressive braking is actually bad. Are you sure you are not talking about threshold braking ? You need to avoid increasing braking force. The initial braking is the moment you can brake the hardest as your wheels and transmission still have inertia. It last for an instant, but it usable. Then you need to decrease braking force slightly to avoid locking, and then you need to keep that same force, unless the fork is riding on bump stops -that means the slightest bump will shock the tyre and you will lose grip. Progressive braking means you are leaving a lot of braking possibility at the start, you will most likely hit the fork bump stop ( or tyre grip limit) when increasing pressure, and you basically forfeit the ability to change course over the braking distance, since the more you brake, the less you can steer.
@@croustibat682 The wheels and transmission have inertia as long as they are spinning, i.e. until you are stopped. progressive braking is progressively increasing front brake pressure as the front tire gets loaded by weight transfer, leading to a higher downward force on the tire and more grip, allowing more braking power. You progressively increase brake pressure up to the threshold where the tire is barely maintaining grip. Am I misunderstanding something, or are you very wrong?
@@croustibat682I do not believe your advice is quite correct. Though it depends on whether or not you have abs . The contact patch on the front tire has the greatest effect on the quality of your braking performance. At the track we are taught to apply modest force first to create a larger contact area before applying maximum braking force. A skidding front tire can't slow you down as well and if you have any lean angle you're going down instantly.
ABS is supposed to give you stability when you brake. It doesnt necessary make stopping distance shorter (especially if you are on ice) but you can manouver your car out of the way without sliding or you can stay on your bike because if your tires slip on wet surface you are probably gone (if the situation is this extreme) - you stop quicker on bike than without bike underneath
Yeah this video is only focusing on straight line tests. Also not including wet ground as well. I would love to see front braking without abs on wet ground 😅
The reason why this video was made is because there are lots of people out there who 100% believe that the sole purpose of ABS is to decrease stopping distance in a straight line because the "computer can react 1000x faster than humans". You can tell by the many points in this video that's where the focus is. It's to disprove those who believe that ABS decreases stopping distance with straight stops on dry pavement. Many people really do believe that is what ABS does, which is simply not true.
In a car if you know how to modulate braking and don’t just push hard and hope for the best you can use brief lock ups to your advantage pivoting the car etc, abs is only beneficial for people who aren’t inclined to drive at or learn the limits. I’ve had one crash and it was from one side of the car getting on wet dirt and the abs stopped me from having braking force on the pavement side to pivot back onto the road.
@@gamerdrive5565 The ABS in a car modulates each wheel independently. The idea that you are manually and individually controlling the lockup of each of the four wheels independently by modulating a single brake pedal is laughable, even before your suggestion of brake steering a car in this fashion. The crash you describe sounds entirely like a skills issue rather than anything to do with the car.
ABS is very well understood in the EU. It isn't to do with stopping fast, but steering during the stop. You mentioned it for half a second it prioritizes sterability. Now do the test in a car, but instead of just brake, teach yourself to turn as you brake. You see the child in front of you, put a box there, drive in the car toward it, stop in the abs car and swerve, then do the same in the non abs car. Personally I have no idea how well the steering happens on a motorbike when ABS is on, as I never tested it, youd have to assume it works well. However if youre going to just slam your brakes and head straight for the obstacle then its of zero use to you. Practice braking and steering as you brake.
I learned long ago the braking method called "wait the weight". Slower grab on the front brake until weight shifts. Thanks for this Ryan. Great as always.
I was once in a situation causing me to panic (rear lockup) brake in a veering turn (just lost some shin skin and bone). I swore I would never have a non-ABS bike again. Still do. Because you can’t really decide to be in a straight line-only panic brake emergency. But after some years of racing cars without ABS, this straight line braking comparison makes perfect sense. Love it. Thanks!
From the automotive perspective: Team O'Niel Rally School has a great channel on automotive driving techniques, focusing on gravel and snow conditions. They recently did an ABS comparison test with a crown vic, and the ABS was less effective than proper threshold braking. The ABS is not there because it's better; it's there because American drivers are not taught how to, OR expected to, brake properly. Next to no one actually practices threshold breaking, so the ABS is deemed slightly better than locking every tire up and skidding off the road (or into something). On the other hand, Rob Dahm just posted a video about his "$10,000" custom racing ABS, which apparently works VERY well. But that system is WAY better than anything put into a normal production car. All in all, most ABS systems suck compared to a trained and practiced driver/rider. But the training and practice? That's on you and me...
You can learn threshhold braking if you have ABS to save you when you lock up the front. You can learn threshhold braking without ABS if you don't mind going through a lot of bikes.
Amazing video as always. However i wish this also included the difference in braking when dealing with wet roads, and braking mid-corner. These two scenarios where ABS will not only help you, but might actively save you from a much worse version of the accident you could've gotten into.
Totally agree as recently I had to emergency stop mid bend as traffic stopped just after bend, I applied full pressure on both brakes and it stopped me just inches from the car. My Ducati scrambler 1100. Had lean angle abs it definitely saved me and the bike.
As always, good science, good advice, told succinctly and accurately. Keep up the good work F9! The final closing remarks about practice and repetition are very accurate, it's essential to keep these skills up in check. Here follows 2 stories about my day job, bus driving: 1. Some times of day there are quite a few drivers on break at the same time in our canteen. Recently I was in there and it was like one of our busses during the morning commuter runs, standing room only. I was talking to another driver, younger fellow, recently out of the training school; he was talking about feeling inadequately prepared for being on the road. He knew the routes, he passed his pcv license with only 2 minors, but the course was only on how to pass your test and get the license. I told him to practice his emergency manoeuvres while having no passengers aboard, often happens very early or very late at night. This exchange kicked off a bit of a discussion, there were drivers in the room that had been doing the job 30 years or more and had never done an emergency stop or swerve at speed, warranted or for practice. Most were shocked that I regularly perform such manoeuvres, whereas I was shocked they haven't. 2. My first day at my depot after finishing training I rock up on my bike and wander in to get changed. Imeet the manager for the first time, we exchange pleasantries etc then he asks me: 'do you drive a bus like you ride your bike'? It took me a sec, but I thought about it and replied yes. With attention, skill, confidence and knowing my limits (because I've pushed them when safe), yes. I drive a bus just like I ride my bike! I have had a suicide-by-bus attempt, multiple suicide-through-stupidity occurrences, drunk drivers, and my personal favourite, the foreigner who forgot which side of the road to drive on. I've still not hurt anyone despite their best efforts and stupidity. Keep up to date with your skills folks. It's not only your own life you might be saving!
This is also the reason why people should practice bad situations. Why do soldiers continuesly train and drop to the ground or get behind nearest cover when they hear gunfire / explosions nearby in training scenarios? Because, in real life situations, doing that has a tendency to save your life. You train your brain to react to the situation rather automatically and it becomes second nature, while if you didn't do that training, chances are you will simply panic.
Great vid. I’ve avoided many near misses over the years by not being shy with the front brake on ABS and non ABS bikes. In the wet however I choose ABS every time.
absolutely my favorite motorcycle channel on TH-cam. Started watching before I ever got on a bike and has saved me on numerous occasions on the street by gaining experience through your videos rather than experience things in real time Genuinely want to thank you
I've been riding dirt bikes since age 10, street bikes since age 17, and mountain biking since age 22. It wasn't until I started riding mountain bikes on very steep terrain that I really learned how to use the front brake. Riding steep descents (like, incilnes so steep that it's difficult to walk UP) is very much like riding at high speeds, in that there is a very fine balance point between maintaining control, and endoing, or locking up/washing out the front wheel. My current bike is a 2014 FZ-09, with no ABS, and I've been in many hard-braking/avoidance situations on the street where I felt like most lesser experienced riders might have ended up on the ground. I guess my point is that there is no substitute for experience and familiarity with your machine. I run the front brake on the right on both of my bicycles (MTB and road bike) because I feel that keeps that feel for the front tire in one hand without having to "switch sides" in your brain.
A very experienced friend who has a racing background says his big Guzzi's linked brakes are almost perfect, and he can gain only a very little adding more front braking. He said it was very hard to get used to not using the front brake lever.
Considering Canada is 40 times bigger than the UK with 20,000,000 fewer people living in it, it’s the space as well as the bikes I’m envious of. Great channel, better production and presentation than most T.V shows. Informative and entertaining. Keep up the great work guys.
There's a famous image that shows the population distribution - something like 50% of the population lives in the little pointy bit that has Toronto, Ottowa, and Montreal. Which probably has a name. "The little pointy bit that has Toronto".
I had no idea about such a defeating statistic regarding braking. Back when I was getting my license the instructors always stressed the primary brake is the front with rear to be combined for best results. And the only situations where rear-only is used is slow speeds, and tight maneuvers - certainly not emergencies.
The truth is in the name: anti-LOCK BRAKING system, its only designed to stop your brakes locking up and your tires skidding. The way I was taught during my Basic Oil Field Drivers Course was to use the abs as an indicator of where your threshold is for threshold breaking. As soon as you feel the ABS kick in and vibrate the pedal, ease off the brake a bit and ride that threshold. I was able to stop dozens of meters faster using that technique and I was driving an F250 super-duty.
I'm from India and Ryan here we are taught that we should use the front brakes only when there is an emergency, and we should always use our rear brakes for every other situation! And thanks to people like you, powerdrift and other auto jurnos/youtubers I unlearnt that horrible advice and learnt about front braking! You guys are life savers 🙏
@@KirnotsargI am an indian too in my 40s and my dad used to exclusively use his rear brake on a bajaj scooter but I naturally unlearnt that many many years ago as I started riding a motorcycle..and cvt scooters.. I always used to always use both brakes but now after reading on the internet I rely more on the front brakes.. But in 2008 when i biught my first front disc brake bike the tvs apache rtr 160 I slipped quite a few times and couldn't really figure why..only later realized that I used to lock the front wheel. So front hard braking especially without front ABS is a recipe for disaster so our elders and my dad were about right
Great video. Obviously this assumes a dry and clear road. Add those variables and ABS wins out easily. If you do threshold braking perfectly, you are almost as good as 'forced' ABS. If you do it poorly, ABS will help "save you". Practice makes better
there's also the fact that a CB500F does in fact not have a modern ABS system. it has an ABS system that only goes from wheelspeed sensors and not one that uses whelspeed sensorts and an inertial measurement unit. and it probably ain't tuned that well either the latter is quite a bit better at determining the maximum possible braking force.
@@anonym3017My Speed Triple has IMU based ABS, but in track mode the IMU part is turned off, allowing you to lift the rear wheel while breaking. I must admit that in race mode the bike lifts its rear really easy, to the degree that it would be dangerous in an emergency situation. My other bikes are much less aggressive on the brake.
Why do you say it wins out? Wet conditions increase stopping distances with ABS. Always has. Once again the advantage is being able to steer, not shorter stopping distances.
Great insight as usual. This makes me feel much better about my 1990 ZX6. After 45 years of riding I intuitively use both the front and rear brake when needed. Thanks again.
@@MenderSlen579it's called experience. I'm not against ABS but most instances of people saying "it saved me" are simply due to their low level of meaningful experience.
@@boingkster if your gonna ride for a decade or more,eventually down the road youll fuck up. and hypothetically if you could lock up front tires without lowsiding(like a car) then it wouldnt be so bad but thats not the realiity : (
Every driver, no matter what kind of vehicle, should practise emergency stopping on a regular basis (like really every single time there is a chance of savely doing it, just do it. Even with cars you can f** up pretty badly (high speed, cornering, than slamming the brakes, that will unsettle the car and ABS wont save you, even stability control could fail) This also ensures that you are aware of the underground and the tire condition, and that the brakes are fully functional.
nicely done - I'm not a rider, but I've often wondered how "good" or "bad" a modern ABS system is on a motorbike. As I suspected, preloading the front before mashing the levers is the best way to go. And like all other skills you should have but hope to never actually need, practice is the key to keeping those skills in the "instictive reaction" part of the brain. Excellent vid as usual. Content, editing, and production meshed together in perfect harmony.... and of course being Canadian and tossing in the Winterpeg reference is just an extra drizzle of maple syrup on top
As a guy who has only ridden non abs bikes his whole life until very recently when I purchased my first abs equipped bike I can exactly understand what’s going on here. Now I am used to it but when I started it felt like the bike just won’t stop….it was a weird feeling and I decided not to ride my zx6r abs for quite some time hahaha
The whole purpose of ABS is so that when you are threshold braking, you can be slightly more aggressive about it. As seen in the video, ABS does increase your stopping distance if it kicks in. It decreases your stopping distance if you weren't braking enough to get to threshhold braking though. I've never had ABS on any motorcycle that I've ridden, but if I could get a system that I can disable for times when I'm riding on gravel or for practicing my braking, I would be much more interested. Sometimes because of the bad riders, the systems can't be disabled or can only be partially disabled.
There's a huge difference between ABS across bike generations. My first BMW K1200 had pretty bad ABS in comparison to my smooth GSXS1000. I could easily outbrake the K1200 in the dry. The GSXS...almost certainly not. And that's still one generation off compared to GSXR's and S1000R and even the XSR900s. The newer S1000's even have "stunt mode" that allows you to carry the rear wheel according to a specific (user-selected) height. And new ABS all works in corners.
@@langhamp8912 What K1200 do you have? My K1200GT from 2003 has insane ABS. I can completely panic grab the front brake and the thing stops immediately to the point where I get slightly dizzy because of the hard deceleration. Can't even feel the ABS pumping.
Some ABS implementations are like that from the factory, tuned to help you enter an intentional slide on gravel, but otherwise normal.@@SmallSpoonBrigade
It would be very interesting to see this same test in the wet, I believe abs on will be far more effective then. I think most riders struggle to brake hard when it's raining due to the risk of the front locking up and sliding rather than stoppie-ing which is basically impossible to do when wet.
Due to fear of the front wheel locking. I could pull stoppies my GPZ600R in the wet on demand after about 10 minutes practice. Its good practice because it really teaches you to find the traction limits.
You would see similar results between full lever abs, vs a perfectly executed threshold braking, vs threshold style braking with ABS. The only difference would be that if you repeated each test multiple times times the chances of you screwing up pure threshold braking increases astronomically
Agree - a proper deep-dive into braking techniques, on different surfaces and genres of bikes would be great. A subject as important as braking deserves all the analysis it can get, (and nobody does it better). I’d also like to see a few novice or less-trained riders to demonstrate the kind of improvements that are achievable.
In German bike license trainings, you see videos of breaking with and without ABS. There is no real difference in dry conditions, but in really wet ones it's like two different vehicals. ABS really can save lifes but as sad in the Video, it is an assistance system, in the end the driver matters. However, for me ABS matters. There were quite a few nice one with only CBS (looking at you, Brixton) that were no option for me
Problem is most riders ride very little. Particularly in certain parts of the world where you have to store your bike over winter. As a daily rider in Australia, in ALL weather, you stay sharper. Cover your front brake with two fingers at all time... You'll use the front brake!
@flippy5118 If you are struggling with grabbing the front brake while accelerating, take up knitting, you don't have the coordination for riding bikes. Also, lol the UK - park up the bike - no use riding in that climate AT ALL!
When I got my first street bike ('01 gsxr 600) I ended up doing a very impressive endo (I flew off and slid 60ft). I didn't understand two tier braking. Now I know not to mash the front. Even though I've had the over-the-handlebars experience, I still practice both emergency braking in a parking lot so that if the day comes again, I won't overuse or underuse the front.
@shoechew I completely agree. I grew up on small dirtbikes (175 or smaller) so I (foolishly) thought it'd transfer over. I wanted to start on a 300, but my dad (who started with a big bore modded gsxr 750 in the 90s) convinced me to go with the 600 lol. Now I tell everyone to start on a 300 for a year, seriously learn the ins and outs, then go to maybe a 600. Had a buddy who wanted to get a hypermotard after I got another bike (he has ridden 1 sport bike for 5 minutes before). It took awhile to convince him not to lol
@nelsonphilip4520 Absolutely. I wouldn't have waited 4 years had my girlfriend not seriously wanted me to stop. I was ready to get back on before my broken wrists were healed lol. Broke 6 bones, skinned my back, butt, thighs, feet, and hands. I ain't done yet!
Really helpful to hear these lessons. Bottom line, go practice threshold braking, 2nd gear swerving, and parking lot crawl-speed full-lock 180deg turns. Thanks F9! Great content again.
When I'm riding a bicycle, I'm ALWAYS using both break levers to stop. ALWAYS. That has trained my bird brain that it's the way you stop... so when ever I've been in sudden situations and near crashes, I've ALWAYS reacted with both levers. That's the thing. If you do something enough, constantly... that's the way your brain reacts when you're not thinking.
Great video, thanks. This 70 year old spent his formative years on old British bikes with drum brakes where the 'ABS' was sort of built-in...if you know what I mean. But the ABS on my new bike has saved me a silly 5mph spill already, so I'm a fan.
Find myself having to use a balance of front, rear and engine braking on the old brit bikes; Tend to have a bigger space cushion... you're not stopping fast in an emergency situation; Fun bikes to ride though.
Two things I learned from this, my old Hog [ABS is just a fever dream for mine] can do it and time to go back to the parking lot. I've done a couple "almost" stoppies in city traffic this season. My safe following distance is a magnet for lane changers coming up to a stop light. I'm just glad that for the most part, drivers stay back from me. I like to think it's safety, but I'm guessing it's more about deafness ... Any way, yet another excellent safety nugget from Ryan and Fortnine. Keep up the excellent work.
First thing I am doing when I get my first bike is going to a parking lot and practicing braking. I did alright in the MSF course, but I did skid the rear too many times. Still getting ABS too… but I want to learn the bike before getting it home on quiet back roads. And then I wanna keep learning the bike in a directed way, in a safe environment for a few days, before playing in too much traffic.
Thanks for the informative video. I also would like to recommend to all riders to stay alert while On The Bike, even if you're just idling the engine. Knowing what happens around you could help react faster to whatever comes for you. Ride safe ✌
I do think you could put more emphasis on the fact that ABS saves lives. And I was taught to squeeze the front brake lever, not use it like a switch. A progressively harder squeeze works exceptionally well in preventing front wheel lockup. Outside of that this is an excellent video. I was hoping that by this time riders would know to use the front brake over the rear. Sad that this hasn't improved since I started riding in the '60s! Much more rider training is needed, and you do a great job in adding to the knowledge pool, thank you.
Yeah, he was intentionally using terrible braking technique with ABS but good braking technique without ABS - are we surprised ABS took longer to stop? The whole video was "ABS is bad" except for the last few seconds when he said use ABS anyways and only sort of explained why it was doing so badly for him.
@@ARCNA442I think the intent was more "abs isn't a replacement for skill, so don't rely on it" for the less experienced and "abs won't ruin your ability to stop" for the more experienced. When I went to the BRC course there was a girl who had been told "don't use the front brake you'll flip" so yeah, we did a couple of minutes on why that's the worse advice you could ever give to someone ever.
I'll get ABS on my next bike if I can disable it for practice or when riding on gravel or sand. That being said, a slow, firm progressive pull of the brake lever has served me well. The only time I've gone down braking was in my first few months when it was rainy and I was faced with the decision of stopping or turning for a stop light, neither decision was great.
Been down twice in a quarter million miles. Both times involved a "panic" stop on the same non-ABS bike. And both times involved excess (apparently?) use of the front brake and resultant lockup of the front wheel, albeit at relatively low speed. I'm here to tell you, when the front wheel of a Harley locks up, you're gonna low side. Immediately. On another note, I once played a music gig in Moose Jaw, Sk.
thats where abs shines, panic braking when your brain is not all there to apple that extra maximum brake methods because well.....your not prepared, your panicked.
@@tron121that’s the thing on a bike you should be prepared all the time every single i time I see another car I am ready to come to a complete stop or shoot off course. Should never be comfortable riding a bike with todays car drivers
Having had more than one person turn left in front of me and having to engage in emergency braking, this is so important. I practiced front and rear-braking to try and be prepared, though I still nearly had a separate accident on the freeway when someone pulled in front of me and I started to fish-tail with heavy rear braking. Recovered, no accident, but plenty scary. Practice, practice, practice, please.
Very good video. I went through bike license courses in last month and part of it was braking from 50-80km/h to stop. I quickly found out that weight transfer on a bike is far more bigger thing than on cars regarding stop distance. I could stop so much quicker when applying progressive braking. On car it is not so profound but still there. I am glad that they gave me this opportunity to understand this in controlled manner rather than getting through it in traffic.
Ryan this is great. Have you seen the abs that came with the 2014 Honda CBR1000RR ? as far as I recall it was a bit of a leap. Would be great to see the same tests performed in the rain , and on bends and with a variety of abs equipped bikes too, like the recent KTM models that have a Bosch imu.
Glad you enjoyed it! Yes some of the ABS systems on supersport bikes are nearly impossible to beat. Especially in "race" mode where it will let you float the rear. ~RF9
Yes, just like the Aprilia tuono and RSV4 ABS wich can be trickled up or down as you want with just a tap of a switch. 0 to 9 increment ABS intrusive power.@@FortNine
I've never beaten my ABS on my 2007 or 2014 BMW. I think that is a rare skill. Bret Tkacs had me squeeze both my brakes as hard as possible immediately in the rain at 40mph and I stopped faster than I could beat without going into ABS. I should try it now that I have more experience. But I have no problem squeezing the crap out of my levers if need be, no 2 stages., unless in gravel with ABS off.
Thank you to your entire team. The consistent quality, clear explanations of complex systems is so refreshing. Your channel is my favorite motorcycle content on TH-cam.
I was about 12 years old when I practiced locking up the front tire on my big sisters bicycle that had a really powerful brake at the front. I did it on a slight downhill, down to a level concrete pad with coarse surface. It had a miniscule ramp on the edge that gave the front tire just enough lift to get it to lock up. Years later I trained locking up the front tire a bit on a scooter on some parking lot that had a spot with really smooth asphalt. Often when it's slippery at winter and I ride a bicycle, I have the tendency to try and to lock the front and keep the tire in a skid as long as I can without losing balance. It's kinda like a small challenge to do it every once in a while. Though I haven't ridden pretty much anything powered on two wheels since 17.
The design of ABS was never to shorten stopping distance, it's entire purpose is to maintain steering control. This has been it's goal since Bosch first produced the system for Mercedes in the early 80s.
@@ARCNA442 especially if the rider cannot apply braking techniques to minimize stopping distance. say when your panicked. so while some might be able to beat abs in a parking lot while practicing, less will be able to do it when I counts.
@@ARCNA442it was byproduct but not an intention. You can look up photos of mercedes first abs car etc - they are mostly showing how well it behaves when the ground is wet, usually how you can still maneuver around the problem. Also abs makes you stop worse on snow (sometimes I guess) because snow pilling up in front of tires helps to stop in those sketchy conditions
@@cyjanek7818 The issue ABS has with snow/dirt is that it tries to keep the wheels spinning on top of the loose surface rather than letting them lock up and dig through it to a firmer surface that provides better traction.
I've racing motocross for many years, a pro-tip that almost nobody knows: Use your back brake slightly before the front, that way you maintain the back of the back lower, heavier, and you'll stop faster!
You missed the consistency of ABS. It's much better in less than ideal conditions. Also you can (and will) out brake ABS in straight line in cars but once any sort of steering and/or imperfection on the surface (if only one side is wet for example) is introduced you will spin without ABS.
ABS can be problematical on cars. Back to statement that humans can evaluate consequences while ABS can only react, ABS always prioritizes control. Snow in particular ABS may severely cut back braking to a fraction of what it is in dry conditions as it tries to prevent lockup even when the snow is perhaps a really thin layer, max braking force then becomes what that thin layer supports. What the ABS can't know is that if wheels become locked the tires cut thru that layer to the pavement underneath. Or assume there is more snow, again ABS limits to the traction of snow while wheel lock will pile up snow ahead helping to brake faster. In every case wheel lock cause momentary loss in directional stability but the driver can selectively let off to regain control as needed.
Thank you!! I was so sick of people calling me insane for trying to explain these exact same points!! Got taught and demonstrated this 12 years ago when I got my licence.
ABS 100% gave me the confidence to brake hard enough on good tires to avoid a near-death crash in the rain. I was sunned at how fast it went from 150kph to almost zero.
it's true that tires offer more grip in wet conditions that one is inclined to assume but nothing stops quickly at 150kph. it takes about a football field to stop at that speed in dry conditions...
@IStripesIit's only 93 mph. And that would be allowed on the Autobahn... Although it wouldn't be allowed to make an emergency brake without a reason on it.
Got brake checked so hard I pulled my first stoppie... Glad to know I use the front and rear brakes together and stop straight lol. Edit: it was a rolling stoppie. Started around 60mph and rear wheel hit the ground around maybe 20-30mph.
Got into a crash yesterday. It was fairly low speed and I had gear on so luckily just a few scrapes on me and the bike. Things happen so quick that you definitely do not have time to think about what to do.I'll echo what others have said and I think the one thing we all should be doing is practicing emergency braking every now and then. Shiny side up, friends.
@Cobb Trying to steer whilst braking might sort of work with a car. With a motorcycle you have still loaded up the front tyre and any steering will take it off its widest contact patch. Just some thoughts for you to ponder from a riding instructor
a lot of people think abs is better at stopping and it simply is not. Ive taught a number of riders in courses and had to show the difference between the two. glad you put this up.
Great video. When I learned to drive a motorcycle 15 years ago ( in France ), ABS was still an option and our bikes from the riding school did not have it. So we had to learn to the technique you described in your video !
(talking pedal bikes here) Mtn Biking and trying to do slow technical stuff helps tremendously with ingraining threshold braking and using both brakes appropriately.
I feel like that's at least in part the result of watching too much youtube vloggers who do it due to false incentives. Creating conflict, rev bombing, almost crashing is so much better for clicks than riding defensively in a way that the situation never ever happens.
I was thining the same thing. I used to ride a VFR800 with linked brakes. I know some people didn't like the loss of control, but it made quick grab or stab at the brakes feel much effective.
grew up on a bicycle, so I instinctively pull both in clutch and front brakes (slowly as not to superman off my handlebars) in emergencies (and then stall once stopped lol)
I agree with everything you have demonstrated but when I first worked on cars with ABS fitted we were told that " it didnt stop you any quicker it merely gave you the ability to steer the car because if you lock up you have no control over your direction " I have avoided a collision in the rain on my bike with ABS because whilst braking I was able to steer the bike as well. Great videos mate .
I'm wondering where he ever got the idea that ABS was intended to make you stop faster. I've never heard it before and have only, ever, heard the correct information, that it helps you maintain steering control while stopping hard.
@@johngaltline9933 On cars race ABS do make you stop faster because of the intervention frequency. For a human is simply impossible to hit the perfect braking application, but again, I'm taling about race ABS, not normal car
@@lorenzorubino2195 I’m not familiar enough with the systems in place in top level motor sports , but if, in fact, they are capable of monitoring braking force, and manage to not actually ever let the wheels lock somehow, then it is possible that you can get a shorter stopping distance by holding the wheels right at the point where they would lock if any more pressure was applied… assuming the road surface and tires do provide more friction that way than with the increased contact patch that a locked tire will provide. If the wheels are locking as they do in typical ABS, even being locked and released at very high speeds, the physics still say it is impossible to stop faster with less friction applied to the ground.
@@johngaltline9933 yes, technically it is possible to stop before the ABS, but no driver can feel the perfect amount of force required to do so, especially during the initial part of brake release.
@@lorenzorubino2195 I mean, yes, if the system is designed to do just that, which might be the case in very high end race cars. For everyone else, locking the wheels and skidding to a stop will beat any ABS in a straight line. It will probably also beat the high end racing systems, it will just ruin the tires in the process.
Definately go and practice. I'd been riding for 5 years, had Advanced Rider certification and was on a road I know well - but when I had an emergency situation my Lizard Brain got to the levers first, grabbed the front brake like it owed it money and my front wheel went bye-bye. And ABS might have saved me from crashing, but good gear and an airvest saved me from dying. Ride safe everyone ❤
Air bag vest, the most sensible gear after helmet! Yet no one wears them. Good for you that you had one. I hope you didn't suffer too many injuries. There are many older bikes that I'd love to own, but no ABS is no go for me.
Luck saves you from dying. If your crash is so severe, that you could die from it, no gear in the world is gonna save you. Had a frontal crash with only a T-Shirt and street pants on. Not a scratch on me. Bike was fucked, disassembled it and sold the parts on ebay. I now wear expensive riding gear but I always have in mind that these items will only prevent skin burn from sliding. If you hit anything with speed, you are fucked.
@@yl9154 Broke my left radius and had to get it pinned, plus a depression fracture on my knee. Also my Suzuki Intruder went to ride on a farm 😥 Still, all better now and on a brand new Rebel 1100 😁
This is exactly what I learned when I took an extra motorcycle course! And this shows me again how valuable this training is. Before I took this training I only used the front brake. Now I use rear first and moments after the front and my brake distance is now so much shorter. They also tought us the threashold braking as well and now the pattern went into my muscle memory.
Been saying it for years... I'd rather stop before I get to the object I might hit... than have to worry about steering around said object. ABS should very much be an option in the automotive world again, not a manditory. Same with Traction Control and Anti-Slip systems... My right foot is my ABS, and my brain the VDC. Hate invasive computer controls.
As a commuter pedal cyclist (I know, *ptouie*), I have definitely learned and practices a similar panic stop. I now instinctively full grab the _front_ break! and don't go hiney over 'spresso machine. What I've learned to do is to "throw" the bike forward (ie: myself back) so that I drop behind the seat and dramatically move the COG back so that max breaking can occur. Works pretty good! No ABS on my 10 speed, so live and learn!
I never really understood how to coexist with ABS until I worked with it off road. Do as Ryan says, practice, but do it one better and practice on dirt/sand/gravel. Hint: you need to make the input gradually and smoothly, just like you make all your other inputs.
I realise now i have been using threshold braking for my bycicles when in emergency or just for fun when going fast, for years, not only that, but the rider can affect massively to reduce even further the stopping distance. by setting the weight further back on the edge of the bycicle seat, or bike if no passenger is with you. Great video!
An experienced professional driver can outperform ABS, by a little. But for the other 99.9999999999999999999999999% of humans, ABS will do better, especially when you panic brake.
they are comparing apples to oranges... panic brake slam vs perfectly controlled manual braking instead controlled vs controlled and panic vs panic ...
Did you know there are some of the motorcycle riders who live on dirt roads ? There are motorcycle riders who live on dirt roads and also ride on dirt trails ... And still others go over the river and through the woods to grandmother's house they go ..in these kinds of situations ABS does not work well to say the least ... One person said with all dirt bikes you can at least turn off ABS on the rear brake of adventure bikes ... That would be insane ...ABS, lean angle ,traction and wheelie control is good for a Gold Wing on wet greasy pavement ,, but that's about it .. adventure bikes that weigh 550 lbs or more .The rider decided he will take a new trail and getting there he blows right through a stop sign that has weeds over grown so he doesn't see it in time , hits the brakes and nothing happens because the ABS will not allow the tires to stop slipping on dirt ...in the trail same thing on an extra steep down hill.
I laughed at 02:11 when the guy in the white van looked at your Emergancy Stop
Was about to post the same as well. lol
was also about to post the same with the time stamp also lol
@@Doroga05 Almost fell off the chair. (Well, woke the neighbours)
was also also about to post the same as well with the time stamp also lol
I laughed when I saw that!
I think the best piece of advice in the whole video is "go practice".
When I did the course, they suggested at the beginning of every season just take an evening and go practice some emergency maneuvers to get reacquainted with your bike. During the season when you're on your way from a ride just stop in to a quiet industrial park and do 5-10 minutes to keep yourself sharp. I think if we all did that we'd save a lot of lives.
Well said and 100% agree! The more you know.....the better (safer) it gets!
Great point, except: 5-10 minutes? Once? That's nowhere near enough. And there is absolutely no excuse to not do many times more practicing than that. There needs to be a lot of repetition in order to change that into your instinctive reaction in an emergency situation. Without enough repetition that won't happen.
How hard can it be to find an empty piece of parking lot or road and just do some repetitive braking manoeuvres? Why can't people do that several times a month? Sure, some people do lots of hard braking on the race track or sometimes on the road too, so that helps. But everyones needs to do a lot of braking practice.
EDIT: My mistake, I misread the original comment and thought it said: "Once in the beginning of the season"...
This is really good advice!
Excellent advise. Every bike's traction lets go at a different point, so having a sixth sense of that point and how to brake right up to it gives you the best chance to avoid a bad experience.
@@pistonburner6448 I think this is a really good advice for most people. Of course we can do more, but for many people there is little time to ride in the first place. It's all a compromise. If someone rides once a weekend, they wont go practice "several times a month". It's unreasonable and most people propably do nothing - hence the 80% mentioned in the video.
At 71 years old with 50+ years riding many bikes long and hard, I’m proud to say I used yesterday’s ride to practice skills. Still crazy (and learning) after all these years.
I turned 71 today, and also have fifty years on motorbikes . . . plus many, many miles too. The ONLY way to keep up your riding skills is to practice them in a safe place away from traffic, on a regular monthly schedule. Regular riding just doesn't get it done.
@patrickfitzgerald2861 Unless you always practice while you ride, pushing your limits. I was peeling out in the rain all the way home tonight on the street, seeing how far my TCS system allows my rear to slide out in each mode. I ride gravel every chance I get as well, skidding the front and rear independently for practice.
@@shaundisch2020 I disagree with "pushing your limits" on public roads. No one has the right to endanger others, regardless of the reason(s).
As much as I hate saying this.
50+ year riding "experience" does not equate to being a SKILLED rider.
Anyone who has ever been on a motorcycle for even one day is an "experienced" rider.
A couple from my community just recently crashed after encountering a deer at highway speed due to lack of skills even though they been riding for many years.
The worst part is, they didn't hit the deer causing them to crash.
Sadly she lost her life.
Consistently un-skilled riders react with panic rather than responding with trained and conditioned skills that have become second nature.
One day equals experienced,@@grounded7362 .? Not really, actually.
Now for the story you tied that in with, that is very sad to hear. Educating one's self to optimum operation and safety when needed, is important.
What makes ABS so useful is not only it's performance in actual braking distance, but that it enables you to steer while breaking. Since energy is needed to change direction, you need to split the friction energy between breaking the vehicle and steering. And since ABS breaks don't use all energy to break, then of course there is room to break in a more optimal way. Most of the times it is better to bypass the obstacle in front of you, than stopping before it.
Exactly, everything is about grip and there is only a finite amount of it. So if you want to turn you need to get some grip from somewhere else, for example slightly less braking force.
Yeah every european seems to understand this, and every american struggles with it. Europeans are becoming instinctive "brake hard and swerve" drivers, and cars without ABS just cant do it, I assume bikes have a simillar outcome. If you steer and brake hard without abs the bike is sliding from under you, with abs you can just go around what youre trying to avoid. Its crazy how fast you can process a brake where you steer into safety. It seems to happen so fast, youre hard on the brake and pointing toward the safe area. Id go so far as people need to be taught how to do it properly during training so it becomes instinct from day one and never go back to a non abs bike/car.
@geroutathat And it becomes even harder in snowy conditions. But at least that is no concern for bike drivers. These days they dish out so much salt on the roads, so even people here in Sweden have forgotten how to handle it.
@@geroutathat This, but you shouldn't always swerve out of the way. If it's a bus in front of you or you'd fall down the side of a mountain steerability is exactly what you need, but if it's something as small as cat, you should probably just crash into it with as little speed as possible because it's safer than swerving out of the way risking to get into a much more dangerous crash. For example because you swerve right into a bus that you didn't see in that very short amount of time you had to react. Quick thinking is what people need there.
Best comment.
When I was training at my car manufacturers school, they taught us that ABS was never about stopping quicker - it was only so you could retain steering control because the wheels haven't locked up. Lines up nicely with Ryan's brilliant piece here. EBS was, however, developed to shorten stopping distances. Thanks again Ryan!
Ironic because I like ABS on a road bike for exactly what you describe. On the other hand I've had several incidents in cars over the years where the ABS has completely killed steering response negating the swerve phase in break-swerve-recover.
We also had been taught the same when we getting educated as mechanic. However, our teacher said that the best braking power is the milisecond or so before the wheels lock up. It is where the wheels are still rolling with the decel, but not too hard as to have the tire skid across the surface of the road. ABS also helps for cars as to make sure the rear doesnt lock up and skid around due to the transfer of weight to the front wheels. Either way, Im as a driver always glad to have the ABS on my car, or rather the cars Im driving, as more to be able to have steering control if I need it
The main life-saving feature of ABS is that it stops people panic braking from spinning into a tree or oncoming traffic.
exactly this , but those people with big egos think they are better than the computer on their bikes/cars . ABS is all about control and if you think you are that good you don't need ABS then you will never activate it while riding because instinctively you will be braking at maximum coefficient of grip and never lock a wheel.
@honkiebikedude you'll never spin the back tire to turn around on a gravel road right?
That's part of why ABS has so many levels. It's a backup safety system, not a replacement for proper training. Great video as always.
However, proper training is negated with ABS. People don't disable ABS to practice. I remember before ABS practicing on my road bike to the point of skidding the front tire, but not locking it up. Also learned to drift both front and rear. That was a lot of practice. Most people will not take it that far and I think the abs overall is probably safer based on the level of skill most riders achieve.
@@ScottDukesRealEstateAnd that's exactly why this video was made, it motivated me to practice more
But why do you have to practice more with ABS! if its better it should make it easier (less practice). Until they improve it, no thanks I'll do it the old school way hasn't failed me yet.@@thomashanson3476
@@ScottDukesRealEstateWhen i got on the bike with ABS i did some braking training to find out how ABS behaves and where it starts to regulate so i can get as close to possible so it almost never needs phase 3. Its also a good safety net to train without crashing. Most bikers never even tried to do an emergency stop with their non ABS bikes. I see how most brake on the track and its not very good.
@@ScottDukesRealEstate ; same with flying aircraft, many just want the fun stuff, so neglect the incipient stall-spin, and glide/short field practice approaches...
Learning and honing the basics sets one up for great disaster responsiveness.
There is a quite difference between different abs systems and settings. On track S1000RR road settings on ABS is definetly worse than human but throw that to racier setup and you are out braking most of the riders on fast group.
Nice u must ride, s1k are sweet, what can we crush bike related 😂
Nice to see you here!
BMW GS has linked braking. You pull on the brake lever and both the front and rear brakes are applied (at different ratios). In a panic, I’ll take the ABS.
This ABS setting is extremely dangerous and we must deal with it
Very true that the "race" ABS on supersport bikes will outperform humans. They will let you stoppie and back the rear in, so there's really nothing to gain by turning it off. Unfortunately these advanced ABS systems are not that common on motorcycles en masse. ~RF9
The key takeaway from this video and what everyone should know about ABS is that it doesn't necessarily make your braking distance shorter, especially if you're a skilled rider. Instead, it allows you to steer your bike under braking, which may allow you to evade obstacles.
thanks for sparing me watching the video. ABS is for preventing wheel lock, not shortening the braking distance.
Bingo.
You still need to learn how to steer. Target fixation will become a big problem if someone has not practised or made mistakes before an emergency situation.
You can't really brake and steer on a motorbike, it doesn't work like that - what ABS does is keep the bike upright under max braking. Something a lot of people overlook and one of its major advantages. Many crashes just don't happen now as people grab a handful of front brake and it just stops without crashing down to one side - providing they don't hit anything.
@@stuc.6592Careful with that blanket statement. You absolutely can and sometimes should brake while steering.
Best summary on Bike ABS ever. I've become comfortable with threshold braking for some years now, but on my new bike I like to use locking the ABS on the gravelly or the wet grassy parts of my driveway, so that I can learn to feel at what levels of deceleration the grip on grass or gravel will fail. For some reason, these experiments have given me more confidence on my old non-ABS bike.
When you flirt with loss of traction, even with an ABS system helping you out, you're still practising riding that edge, so it makes perfect sense it makes you feel more confident on the other bike, you're more practised on the feel of that edge.
people really don't understand the importance of practicing and unfortunately for some the realization of the difference between panic instincts and wishful thinking comes too late...
great example for the use of ABS
go ahead and test the abs on a straight proper EMPTY road. You will be surprised how much you have to pull the lever for it to kick in. Its good to get an actual feeling for it. You will also get a very good feeling for how much stopping power your brakes and tires actually have.
Great job! But Ryan should try a linked braking system like my BMW R1200RS has. You only need to grab the front brake lever and the back brake operates too. I never use the back brake except in town, when the braking with the linked system is sometimes just too much. In an emergency just pull the lever: without the need to consider the back wheel your brain has more time to think about steering out of trouble. Needless to say, the linked Brembo system gives astonishing braking power: this 525 pound bike stops on a dime!
As a European that had to go through a driving school to get a license I'm a little bit shocked that so few seem to use the front brakes. Emergency breaking is a dedicated topic in lessons and the final test and you have to use both brakes at the same time.
Same from the UK, where you fail the emergency stop if you don't use progressive braking, and if you lock the rear. By Americans thinks its against their right to freedom to make them learn
It's the same in the US. The 80% statistic is just those that crashed, not those that avoided an accident. It is still fairly common to hear the "rear brake only" advice, but it is covered completely as a myth in the BRC school
Yeah. Through my A2 and Acellerated Access lessons, they teach, little bit of front, little bit of rear, progressively squeeze the front, in that quick order for emergency braking.
I was surprised too that people in USA say you don't use front brake etc. I get it's more tricky but at city speed there is no reason to use just one, worse brake (the rear)
@@cyjanek7818 I've only been riding for like two months and I'm pretty sure I would've already crashed into something on my commute if I only used the rear brakes.
It’s good to see that this reinforces something I learnt from a riding instructor.
It’s not about practicing until you can do something. It’s about practicing until you can’t not do it.
Keep your head up, apply increasing pressure on the lever until the threshold, then hold until stopped.
also, pump the rear before in order to transfer weight to the front, for better grip when you slam both at the top pressure.
Oh if i remember that sweet spot! The bike just squats and stops!
My Dad used to say an amateur practices until he gets it right, a professional until he doesn't get it wrong. It took me a decade to really understand this.
@@e.lan.s can't you do the same with the front by progressively application of grip, instead of reflexively fully grabbing the lever?
Yeah i have this problem with modern ABS in cars. Most modern ABS systems have so much control that you can have the brake planted on the firewall and still change directions because the computers use brake vectoring to control the cars orientation. But I learnt to drive with cars without ABS or with old ABS systems which means when i turn the wheel i can't help but lift my braking foot slightly to allow the front wheels to unlock and turn allowing the car to change directions. This is less efficient than the modern ABS system can do it because its binary on all 4 wheels and cant use the brakes to rotate the car. But I have to actually concerntrate to not do it and trust the car will do the work for me better than I can.
And those systems will be getting to the point where they can manage to brake better on loose surfaces which old ABS systems can't manage. But it's not something youll see in bikes any time soon.
The problem in my opinion is that its a very unusual situation, if you practice only in a controlled environment you have time to plan your moves and are ready for it, while in the real world a situation could occur so fast that you have no time to think about how you brake and in these situations ABS allows you to dump the brake…
as a bicyclist, when I need to stop I will often purposefully do a controlled panic stop to make sure I always have a good feeling for how much front brake I can safely apply for maximum stopping power. It’s definitely saved me in a lot of situations when I needed to avoid danger in front of me.
Yes, bicyclist's just have no ABS. Which means they have a massive stopping distance, skidding or fly over the handlebars if they do it wrong. Only real threshold braking can save you in a dime.
I instinctively move myself backwards as much as possible (to avoid a stoppie) when braking, also I gently push the front brake to not lock it up and prevent a slideout or going over the bars.
@@joneinarmattiasvisser6113in fact you already get ABS for E Bikes (since they offer the power source for it) from 2 suppliers.
@@joneinarmattiasvisser6113 LOL a quick google for "bicycle abs" (disc brakes have become so common, someone has to have tried, right?) yielded - exercise videos on how to improve your six-pack by doing bicycle crunch. :) (sad trombone) @omgmrj Practicing before you have to in an emergency is pretty much the message of this video, I can only say, kudos to you!
Ya it also helps that 90% of our weight is mobile
@@colinbruulsema7177 true, which also makes you learn about weight and balance
No one else makes educational content so simple and so entertaining
This content is on a league of it's own!
That's why I love offroad riding/racing. It taught me to panic brake with the front brakes, lots of the time hard enough to actually lock up the front wheel on dirt and slide it for a foot or 2.
Until you loop a sport bike over forwards w no abs 😂
Same with on-road racing. (minus the part about locking up & sliding the front). All the braking power is on the front wheel. Rear brake only is generally only touched for line adjustment - so it builds a very strong instinct of reaching for the lever whenever you need to stop HARD. And in stead of getting comfortable sliding the front, you get comfortable lofting the rear.
Many years ago when trail riding I was surprised to see so many riders "afraid" to use their front brake aggresively. I can only assume they had a bad experience one time and didn't want a repeat. Some days I used to ride and try not to use the rear brake at all so as to gain even greater confidence in using the front. Even today, when road riding, I find some people wear out rear brake pads more quickly than fronts. Not sure how they would fare in a panic stop.....
Same here. Dirt is the best place to learn how to ride.
@bondradman7353 ya, my rear pads last me forever, can't say the same about my front.
Another important aspect of an ABS: YOU HAVE ENOUGH CONFIDENCE TO PULL THE BRAKE LEVER AT FULL POWER! 90% of riders don't brake with enough intensity in less than ideal conditions like wet weather - until it's too late to stop. Then they lock the wheel.
just drive a car then lol
@@billmelcher625Very intelligent response.
@@billmelcher625 Albert Einstein over here.
Can we just take a moment to appreciate the production quality and how well put together this video is? I don't ride but I'd be lying if I wasn't captivated by the whole thing.
Sergeant Austin on a cloud. Your creativity never ceases to amaze and entertain. You guys are a TH-cam gem.
Creativity? The Sarge just does that from time to time. ~RF9
@@FortNine I humbly salute him.
THANK YOU! This is what I've been trying to tell anyone who's spouted the "I can stop faster than ABS" crap. Unless you are practicing threshold braking regularly, you probably won't outperform ABS on a good day, let alone in an emergency. Most riders are terrified of their front brake.
ABS is your bike inviting you to practice threshold braking cause it'll step in when you overshoot.
Though he made a good point about driving on snow.
With regular braking in snowy and icy conditions you can literally feel how ABS releases brakes completely and prevent you from slowing down. And in such condition almost without thinking you try to brake to the point ABS starts to work - and after it does you release brake slightly. It doesn't even feels like "I am doing good without ABS!" - it feels like "I am pressing the pedal but at some point it starts to fight me back", kinda similar to stick shaker in case of stall warning. You release pedal not because "oh it is ABS and it is bad" - but because pedal literally starts hitting your leg like crazy.
It never happens in dry conditions because reasonable braking is far beyond locking wheels. And pretty sure it never happens in emergency because you just push it in the floor and ignore everything about it.
You know,the next time soneone says to you that he can stop faster without ABS you might wanna ask what his first bike was. It will make you less of a clown
@@deadlymecury There's an unconfirmed rumor that on Australian gravel roads ABS doesn't really help. Yeah, it does stupid things on snow so I'm inclined to believe that rumor.
@@kampar82 gravel has a lot of friction though. It's not that easy to slide on gravel and it's not that easy to move gravel on top of other gravel. Maybe some really small fractions (like if you decrease fraction infinitely - you will end up with the sand), but for bikes usually it's not just gravel that is dangerous but small patches of gravel on asphalt.
I can imagine that ABS can be activated on gravel easier than on asphalt - but I doubt that it will be even near in comparison to fresh snow and ice.
And even very skilled rider is not outperforming ABS on the wet, let alone doing so on random patches of sand. And this is like that since 2005, when ABS was rather basic, modern systems are way faster.
Another very clear, well written and well edited video from this channel. Thank you Ryan and all the team behind for making such great content !
He is def our communities cool nerd.
I really, REALLY like how you started off mentioning how this is very different from a car's ABS system. Great analysis and explanation.
Thanks to the Sarge for investigating my "crash." If you want to learn threshold braking, check out Advanced Rider Training: enduroparkcanada.com/pages/advanced-rider-training ~RF9
Still not forgiven you for ignoring the rotary engine in your engine video.....
If you're the diehard rider whose been on 2 wheels in a corn field since you were ~6 years old, ABS might not be right for you lol. I've had some close calls where I'm fairly certain ABS would have killed me because I was depending on being able to lock the back up and do a controlled fish tail around an obstacle; or perhaps I'm using the fishtail to institute a quicker/safer controlled lay down of the bike because sometimes sliding her to distance yourself from the motorcycle is the only option that's left. This has saved me on asphalt more than once. But should everyone expect this level of self control. Hell no, even I know better. So my summary take-away is simple.. ABS good at 55+mph... ABS bad when slower. I wish I could tell the bike when to turn it on and off based on my desired speed ranges.
@@catlee8064Meh there's an entire Fortnine video for that already 😒
Try it in the WET...That is where ABS wins...A lock up will slide you hard in the wet. That's why ABS exists...to stop a wheel lock up and the lethal slide crash in the wet. Testing ABS in the dry is like testing a waterproof jacket in the Sahara Desert.
PS: I am a full time courier with bitter experience of the latter while avoiding a car that, pulled out in the wet.
@@karthi_x97 Yes i know, but they still didnt include it in the engine video....
...and tbh im just having a giggle.
My biggest thing: if you have ABS, you can practice braking without fear. Youre not going to tuck the front and crash, you can keep squeezing that fromt lever ever harder till the ABS says "ok, thats it".
Ive NEVER met anyone whonpractices emergency braking without ABS till the front actually starts to lock.
the front only locks if youre lucky. youre more likely to fly over the handlebars if you give it way too much front brake
I have. Unintentionally, and only from 70 kph.
In Hungary you have to take the first part of the driving test with no ABS and the final part is crash avoidance (with counter steering) and emergency braking. You have to speed up to 50 then stop in 14 meters, if you lock up your tires you fail.
@@laszlohary7430 In Australia you get 12m to stop from 50. Again, lock up and you fail.
I did 😂😂
I mean couple of times I had too 😅
Mostly by riding it in gravel u easily realize the grip and locking it
And major part is experience!!!
speed never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you. -Clarkson.
That's more or less the thing. Running into things, being run over by things and running off of things are what kill people typically. Yes, there are freak accidents like that dude that got his head ripped off by a downed power line, but there is a point where no amount of preparation and safe practices can save you. Fortunately, those are rare cases.
wise man
yawn
you can become suddenly stationary while previously going 5 kmh or going 200kmh, sure it's gonna have the same effect both times
That's like saying being pushed into the ocean without a flotation device isn't what kills people; it's the accumulation of water in the lungs. Is that the ultimate cause, viewed in isolation? Sure. But it's a completely meaningless distinction, and no judge in the world would buy your reasoning if that's your defense.
Semantically, if you wanted to tie yourself into a knot, you could argue that travelling at 150 km/h isn't what kills you, sure. But the fact of the matter is that a sudden stop at 80 km/h is less deadly than a sudden stop at 150 km/h. Due to a thing called physics, the stop cannot be viewed in isolation; it is completely dependent upon the preceding speed going into it.
Furthermore, a sudden stop isn't always braking. Even if you think you're in the top percentile of drivers/riders in the world (which is pretty common, it would seem) and so your braking technique and reflexes are astounding, you can still find yourself in a situation where, due to someone else's mistake, you're completely blindsided.
This is why a lack of education around what technology can and cannot do is dangerous for beginner riders, every noob thinks they can handle a Panigale V4 because ABS and traction control will save me.
I see I am not the only guy who has his morning coffee watching the latest motorcycle videos. Lol. Great topic Ryan. In my experience very few riders ever venture into an used parking lot and practice emergency braking. This video may provoke a few more into doing so. Well done Ryan and thanks again for the great content.
I love everything about this video, it's fantastic. I only wish you had touched on the difference with ABS in inclement weather and road surfaces or while turning. That is where I think ABS really shines.
Unfortunately that detail would have either made the video overloaded or 20 minutes long. The effectiveness of the message is in keeping it short and encouraging riders to become more knowledgeable through practice.
I agree that abs on wet road is a life saver. I have an old car with no abs and summer tires, so raining in winter makes it a coffin on wheels 😂😂
@@ccibinel For sure, I understand why he didn't get into that part of the conversation. I still wish it could have been worked in somehow, Or maybe have another video specifically about it.
Great feedback for a followup video - thanks! I shall also acquire a less pristine motorcycle if we're going to be testing threshold braking on wet oily roads haha. ~RF9
Really excited for this follow up. That was my big question as well. How is ABS in the wet/oily? Thanks for all your content + education! @@FortNine
A good piece of advice for non-abs beginners would be to ride always with two fingers on brake lever. This way instead of grabbing a lever in panic and locking a wheel, you are always ready to gradually squeze the lever. For some it may seem uncomfortable, but after a while it becomes natural, and saved me a few times already.
Learned the same at Yamaha ChampStreet school.
Exactly. I ride with my index finger on the fe501 lever. I’ve only had three emergency panic brakes(to avoid deer) and every situation was the exact same-
Clutch in, front brake applied just enough to keep the rear tire from completely coming off the pavement, and rear braking just hard enough to make the tire chirp.
Anyone who heard me would assume I have(I don’t) ABS by the chirping. Not because I’m applying too much rear brake, but because the rear end is nearly floating and wanting to come around.
For some reason I twisted the throttle and the bike was revving all three times. Maybe for a bit of additional pull on my lonely index finger.
I do this too and I learned it from riding bicycles.
It's very useful on my scooter that has gigantic brakes.
Riding offroad helps alot with riding on road, too. When riding offroad a huge part is brake control, especially on slippery ground. It's common for wheels to lock up and you learn how to deal with these situations.
I would recommend doing that on ABS bikes as well, it just feels a lot smoother when braking.
As someone who only rides bicycles, I'm very familiar with threshold braking. There's no ABS. I think this is a really good learning tool!
When I started riding I was really into dominating the vehicle. It was quite fun for me to try things and push a motorcycle to some degree of a limit. I spent quite a lot of time on a bike, so it also helped entertaining myself. Sure, I fell quite a few times, but never anything serious.
Now I've heard of a progressive braking and tried it, again, in a daily riding just for the sake of entertainment and feeling good about my skill. But then that one day, I was with my then girlfriend out on a highway and that truck on the line right to me suddenly changed the line without any turning signal. Now I was going about a 100 km/h, and a right line was going around 50 which is the reason he changed the line. Just got tired of going slow, so he just went for it as a proper asshole. Obviously, being a truck, he couldn't reach the speed of a lane so I had to go into a sudden emergency braking. I had maybe like 20-30 meters to reduce my speed by half. And I didn't have ABS on my bike. Had I pushed too hard, I'd fall and the car behind me would've gone over me. Not enough and I would go under the truck. That was that one moment when I got seriously scared. The most I have ever been on a bike. Mostly because I had a very dear passenger behind. I couldn't have reacted to it, had I not practiced those emergency braking for "fun". I went straight by the book, applying progressive force on both levers, but my mind was out scared for its life. My hands did everything as if by themselves.
The point I try to make here is that you have to practise. If it's fun for you then you can do it just when you're out, having a nice daily ride. If it's not, then take some time and practise anyway. It will save your life someday and probably others, too.
hi ck5, have you become a flat earther yet?
@@flat-earther hi flat-earther, have you become an Odinist yet?
Progressive braking is actually bad. Are you sure you are not talking about threshold braking ? You need to avoid increasing braking force. The initial braking is the moment you can brake the hardest as your wheels and transmission still have inertia. It last for an instant, but it usable. Then you need to decrease braking force slightly to avoid locking, and then you need to keep that same force, unless the fork is riding on bump stops -that means the slightest bump will shock the tyre and you will lose grip. Progressive braking means you are leaving a lot of braking possibility at the start, you will most likely hit the fork bump stop ( or tyre grip limit) when increasing pressure, and you basically forfeit the ability to change course over the braking distance, since the more you brake, the less you can steer.
@@croustibat682 The wheels and transmission have inertia as long as they are spinning, i.e. until you are stopped.
progressive braking is progressively increasing front brake pressure as the front tire gets loaded by weight transfer, leading to a higher downward force on the tire and more grip, allowing more braking power. You progressively increase brake pressure up to the threshold where the tire is barely maintaining grip.
Am I misunderstanding something, or are you very wrong?
@@croustibat682I do not believe your advice is quite correct. Though it depends on whether or not you have abs . The contact patch on the front tire has the greatest effect on the quality of your braking performance. At the track we are taught to apply modest force first to create a larger contact area before applying maximum braking force. A skidding front tire can't slow you down as well and if you have any lean angle you're going down instantly.
Thats why i sometimes practice hard breaking with high speed to get a feel for the bike under stress
Braking.
@@williamwilson6499 he actually meant breaking, he hits the bike with a bat to build up resistance
If you get a chance, also do so on a rainy day with the road wet to add that to your muscle memory.
ABS is supposed to give you stability when you brake. It doesnt necessary make stopping distance shorter (especially if you are on ice) but you can manouver your car out of the way without sliding or you can stay on your bike because if your tires slip on wet surface you are probably gone (if the situation is this extreme) - you stop quicker on bike than without bike underneath
Yeah this video is only focusing on straight line tests. Also not including wet ground as well. I would love to see front braking without abs on wet ground 😅
The reason why this video was made is because there are lots of people out there who 100% believe that the sole purpose of ABS is to decrease stopping distance in a straight line because the "computer can react 1000x faster than humans". You can tell by the many points in this video that's where the focus is. It's to disprove those who believe that ABS decreases stopping distance with straight stops on dry pavement. Many people really do believe that is what ABS does, which is simply not true.
This is correct.
A Part Deux video could be added to address the "knew it all along" conmens.
In a car if you know how to modulate braking and don’t just push hard and hope for the best you can use brief lock ups to your advantage pivoting the car etc, abs is only beneficial for people who aren’t inclined to drive at or learn the limits. I’ve had one crash and it was from one side of the car getting on wet dirt and the abs stopped me from having braking force on the pavement side to pivot back onto the road.
@@gamerdrive5565 The ABS in a car modulates each wheel independently. The idea that you are manually and individually controlling the lockup of each of the four wheels independently by modulating a single brake pedal is laughable, even before your suggestion of brake steering a car in this fashion. The crash you describe sounds entirely like a skills issue rather than anything to do with the car.
ABS is very well understood in the EU. It isn't to do with stopping fast, but steering during the stop. You mentioned it for half a second it prioritizes sterability. Now do the test in a car, but instead of just brake, teach yourself to turn as you brake. You see the child in front of you, put a box there, drive in the car toward it, stop in the abs car and swerve, then do the same in the non abs car. Personally I have no idea how well the steering happens on a motorbike when ABS is on, as I never tested it, youd have to assume it works well. However if youre going to just slam your brakes and head straight for the obstacle then its of zero use to you. Practice braking and steering as you brake.
The guy in the van at 2:15 was so confused!
Some other guy beat you to the time stamp. I'll show you some love
I literally just said that word for word😂
I learned long ago the braking method called "wait the weight". Slower grab on the front brake until weight shifts. Thanks for this Ryan. Great as always.
Interesting
I was once in a situation causing me to panic (rear lockup) brake in a veering turn (just lost some shin skin and bone). I swore I would never have a non-ABS bike again. Still do. Because you can’t really decide to be in a straight line-only panic brake emergency. But after some years of racing cars without ABS, this straight line braking comparison makes perfect sense. Love it. Thanks!
From the automotive perspective:
Team O'Niel Rally School has a great channel on automotive driving techniques, focusing on gravel and snow conditions. They recently did an ABS comparison test with a crown vic, and the ABS was less effective than proper threshold braking.
The ABS is not there because it's better; it's there because American drivers are not taught how to, OR expected to, brake properly. Next to no one actually practices threshold breaking, so the ABS is deemed slightly better than locking every tire up and skidding off the road (or into something).
On the other hand, Rob Dahm just posted a video about his "$10,000" custom racing ABS, which apparently works VERY well. But that system is WAY better than anything put into a normal production car.
All in all, most ABS systems suck compared to a trained and practiced driver/rider. But the training and practice? That's on you and me...
You can learn threshhold braking if you have ABS to save you when you lock up the front. You can learn threshhold braking without ABS if you don't mind going through a lot of bikes.
Excellent point to add to this.
Well, thats a great way to look at it.
True. ABS only engages when lockup is sensed.
Get good enough at threshold braking and it won’t lock up, traditional braking pretty much.
ahaha what an expert. You can learn threshold braking on non ABS bike easily too without crashing. How? Use the brain maybe you will figure it out
@@46rrodriguez What the hell happened to you?
Amazing video as always.
However i wish this also included the difference in braking when dealing with wet roads, and braking mid-corner. These two scenarios where ABS will not only help you, but might actively save you from a much worse version of the accident you could've gotten into.
Totally agree as recently I had to emergency stop mid bend as traffic stopped just after bend, I applied full pressure on both brakes and it stopped me just inches from the car. My Ducati scrambler 1100. Had lean angle abs it definitely saved me and the bike.
As always, good science, good advice, told succinctly and accurately. Keep up the good work F9! The final closing remarks about practice and repetition are very accurate, it's essential to keep these skills up in check. Here follows 2 stories about my day job, bus driving:
1. Some times of day there are quite a few drivers on break at the same time in our canteen. Recently I was in there and it was like one of our busses during the morning commuter runs, standing room only.
I was talking to another driver, younger fellow, recently out of the training school; he was talking about feeling inadequately prepared for being on the road.
He knew the routes, he passed his pcv license with only 2 minors, but the course was only on how to pass your test and get the license.
I told him to practice his emergency manoeuvres while having no passengers aboard, often happens very early or very late at night.
This exchange kicked off a bit of a discussion, there were drivers in the room that had been doing the job 30 years or more and had never done an emergency stop or swerve at speed, warranted or for practice. Most were shocked that I regularly perform such manoeuvres, whereas I was shocked they haven't.
2. My first day at my depot after finishing training I rock up on my bike and wander in to get changed. Imeet the manager for the first time, we exchange pleasantries etc then he asks me: 'do you drive a bus like you ride your bike'?
It took me a sec, but I thought about it and replied yes. With attention, skill, confidence and knowing my limits (because I've pushed them when safe), yes. I drive a bus just like I ride my bike!
I have had a suicide-by-bus attempt, multiple suicide-through-stupidity occurrences, drunk drivers, and my personal favourite, the foreigner who forgot which side of the road to drive on. I've still not hurt anyone despite their best efforts and stupidity.
Keep up to date with your skills folks. It's not only your own life you might be saving!
This is also the reason why people should practice bad situations.
Why do soldiers continuesly train and drop to the ground or get behind nearest cover when they hear gunfire / explosions nearby in training scenarios? Because, in real life situations, doing that has a tendency to save your life.
You train your brain to react to the situation rather automatically and it becomes second nature, while if you didn't do that training, chances are you will simply panic.
Great vid. I’ve avoided many near misses over the years by not being shy with the front brake on ABS and non ABS bikes. In the wet however I choose ABS every time.
absolutely my favorite motorcycle channel on TH-cam. Started watching before I ever got on a bike and has saved me on numerous occasions on the street by gaining experience through your videos rather than experience things in real time Genuinely want to thank you
You forgot to include wet weather. Pretty important scenerio where ABS is even more amazing. Loved the vid you're a top man.
I've been riding dirt bikes since age 10, street bikes since age 17, and mountain biking since age 22. It wasn't until I started riding mountain bikes on very steep terrain that I really learned how to use the front brake. Riding steep descents (like, incilnes so steep that it's difficult to walk UP) is very much like riding at high speeds, in that there is a very fine balance point between maintaining control, and endoing, or locking up/washing out the front wheel. My current bike is a 2014 FZ-09, with no ABS, and I've been in many hard-braking/avoidance situations on the street where I felt like most lesser experienced riders might have ended up on the ground. I guess my point is that there is no substitute for experience and familiarity with your machine. I run the front brake on the right on both of my bicycles (MTB and road bike) because I feel that keeps that feel for the front tire in one hand without having to "switch sides" in your brain.
very well said 👍 there is no substitute for experience and familiarity with your machine
Interesting video. It would be cool to see how bikes with linked or 'integral' braking systems would stack up against these 2 methods.
You mean CBS? Yes it would be very interesting
If the k1200s is any guide I disconnected it and put in U pipes to separate the systems. They are a very very expensive failure.
yeah, that would be interesting. Tho, if i could guess they would perform worse than any other 😂
@@geokon3I remember seeing a professional racer having a hard time replicating the C-ABS on the CBR when it just came out.
A very experienced friend who has a racing background says his big Guzzi's linked brakes are almost perfect, and he can gain only a very little adding more front braking. He said it was very hard to get used to not using the front brake lever.
Considering Canada is 40 times bigger than the UK with 20,000,000 fewer people living in it, it’s the space as well as the bikes I’m envious of. Great channel, better production and presentation than most T.V shows. Informative and entertaining. Keep up the great work guys.
Canadian population is condensed into a relatively small space. Travel far enough from those areas, and you may never see another person ever again.
There's a famous image that shows the population distribution - something like 50% of the population lives in the little pointy bit that has Toronto, Ottowa, and Montreal. Which probably has a name. "The little pointy bit that has Toronto".
There is reason why almost all Canada live near US border. Actual "ridable" area much much smaller that you may think.
It’s like Australia- there is a reason no one lives in most of it - and you wouldn’t want to either……
@@ianm432Yeah that’s why I love riding up north in Ontario. Barely any garbage car drivers to be seen 🤣
I had no idea about such a defeating statistic regarding braking. Back when I was getting my license the instructors always stressed the primary brake is the front with rear to be combined for best results. And the only situations where rear-only is used is slow speeds, and tight maneuvers - certainly not emergencies.
Go watch some motorcycle dashcam crash compilations. The number of accidents caused by horrible technique is astounding.
The truth is in the name: anti-LOCK BRAKING system, its only designed to stop your brakes locking up and your tires skidding.
The way I was taught during my Basic Oil Field Drivers Course was to use the abs as an indicator of where your threshold is for threshold breaking. As soon as you feel the ABS kick in and vibrate the pedal, ease off the brake a bit and ride that threshold.
I was able to stop dozens of meters faster using that technique and I was driving an F250 super-duty.
I'm from India and Ryan here we are taught that we should use the front brakes only when there is an emergency, and we should always use our rear brakes for every other situation! And thanks to people like you, powerdrift and other auto jurnos/youtubers I unlearnt that horrible advice and learnt about front braking! You guys are life savers 🙏
Yeah, that was the advice of every 'uncle' who rode a 2-wheeler.
@@KirnotsargI am an indian too in my 40s and my dad used to exclusively use his rear brake on a bajaj scooter but I naturally unlearnt that many many years ago as I started riding a motorcycle..and cvt scooters.. I always used to always use both brakes but now after reading on the internet I rely more on the front brakes..
But in 2008 when i biught my first front disc brake bike the tvs apache rtr 160 I slipped quite a few times and couldn't really figure why..only later realized that I used to lock the front wheel. So front hard braking especially without front ABS is a recipe for disaster so our elders and my dad were about right
Every country teaches that the front brake is the most effective and should be used.
@@no22sillback brakes are good but not in an emergency
Use both brakes every time all the time
Great video. Obviously this assumes a dry and clear road. Add those variables and ABS wins out easily.
If you do threshold braking perfectly, you are almost as good as 'forced' ABS. If you do it poorly, ABS will help "save you". Practice makes better
I think this video should include those "obvious" assumption because the only obvious thing is that people on the internet will miss them
there's also the fact that a CB500F does in fact not have a modern ABS system.
it has an ABS system that only goes from wheelspeed sensors and not one that uses whelspeed sensorts and an inertial measurement unit. and it probably ain't tuned that well either
the latter is quite a bit better at determining the maximum possible braking force.
@@anonym3017My Speed Triple has IMU based ABS, but in track mode the IMU part is turned off, allowing you to lift the rear wheel while breaking. I must admit that in race mode the bike lifts its rear really easy, to the degree that it would be dangerous in an emergency situation. My other bikes are much less aggressive on the brake.
@@anonym3017I have a CB500F with ABS but I ride it as if it doesn’t
Why do you say it wins out? Wet conditions increase stopping distances with ABS. Always has. Once again the advantage is being able to steer, not shorter stopping distances.
Great insight as usual. This makes me feel much better about my 1990 ZX6. After 45 years of riding I intuitively use both the front and rear brake when needed. Thanks again.
dosent help either than you cant recover the front wheel locking up,unless you can idk.
Not hard to do if you're going straight
@@MenderSlen579it's called experience. I'm not against ABS but most instances of people saying "it saved me" are simply due to their low level of meaningful experience.
@@boingkster if your gonna ride for a decade or more,eventually down the road youll fuck up.
and hypothetically if you could lock up front tires without lowsiding(like a car) then it wouldnt be so bad but thats not the realiity : (
Every driver, no matter what kind of vehicle, should practise emergency stopping on a regular basis (like really every single time there is a chance of savely doing it, just do it. Even with cars you can f** up pretty badly (high speed, cornering, than slamming the brakes, that will unsettle the car and ABS wont save you, even stability control could fail)
This also ensures that you are aware of the underground and the tire condition, and that the brakes are fully functional.
nicely done - I'm not a rider, but I've often wondered how "good" or "bad" a modern ABS system is on a motorbike. As I suspected, preloading the front before mashing the levers is the best way to go. And like all other skills you should have but hope to never actually need, practice is the key to keeping those skills in the "instictive reaction" part of the brain. Excellent vid as usual. Content, editing, and production meshed together in perfect harmony.... and of course being Canadian and tossing in the Winterpeg reference is just an extra drizzle of maple syrup on top
As a guy who has only ridden non abs bikes his whole life until very recently when I purchased my first abs equipped bike I can exactly understand what’s going on here. Now I am used to it but when I started it felt like the bike just won’t stop….it was a weird feeling and I decided not to ride my zx6r abs for quite some time hahaha
The whole purpose of ABS is so that when you are threshold braking, you can be slightly more aggressive about it. As seen in the video, ABS does increase your stopping distance if it kicks in. It decreases your stopping distance if you weren't braking enough to get to threshhold braking though.
I've never had ABS on any motorcycle that I've ridden, but if I could get a system that I can disable for times when I'm riding on gravel or for practicing my braking, I would be much more interested. Sometimes because of the bad riders, the systems can't be disabled or can only be partially disabled.
There's a huge difference between ABS across bike generations. My first BMW K1200 had pretty bad ABS in comparison to my smooth GSXS1000. I could easily outbrake the K1200 in the dry. The GSXS...almost certainly not. And that's still one generation off compared to GSXR's and S1000R and even the XSR900s. The newer S1000's even have "stunt mode" that allows you to carry the rear wheel according to a specific (user-selected) height. And new ABS all works in corners.
Dirt bike riders "learned" not to use front brake by having front tire slide out.
@@langhamp8912 What K1200 do you have? My K1200GT from 2003 has insane ABS. I can completely panic grab the front brake and the thing stops immediately to the point where I get slightly dizzy because of the hard deceleration. Can't even feel the ABS pumping.
Some ABS implementations are like that from the factory, tuned to help you enter an intentional slide on gravel, but otherwise normal.@@SmallSpoonBrigade
It would be very interesting to see this same test in the wet, I believe abs on will be far more effective then. I think most riders struggle to brake hard when it's raining due to the risk of the front locking up and sliding rather than stoppie-ing which is basically impossible to do when wet.
Due to fear of the front wheel locking. I could pull stoppies my GPZ600R in the wet on demand after about 10 minutes practice. Its good practice because it really teaches you to find the traction limits.
You would see similar results between full lever abs, vs a perfectly executed threshold braking, vs threshold style braking with ABS. The only difference would be that if you repeated each test multiple times times the chances of you screwing up pure threshold braking increases astronomically
Agree - a proper deep-dive into braking techniques, on different surfaces and genres of bikes would be great. A subject as important as braking deserves all the analysis it can get, (and nobody does it better).
I’d also like to see a few novice or less-trained riders to demonstrate the kind of improvements that are achievable.
In German bike license trainings, you see videos of breaking with and without ABS. There is no real difference in dry conditions, but in really wet ones it's like two different vehicals. ABS really can save lifes but as sad in the Video, it is an assistance system, in the end the driver matters. However, for me ABS matters. There were quite a few nice one with only CBS (looking at you, Brixton) that were no option for me
Problem is most riders ride very little. Particularly in certain parts of the world where you have to store your bike over winter. As a daily rider in Australia, in ALL weather, you stay sharper. Cover your front brake with two fingers at all time... You'll use the front brake!
@flippy5118 If you are struggling with grabbing the front brake while accelerating, take up knitting, you don't have the coordination for riding bikes. Also, lol the UK - park up the bike - no use riding in that climate AT ALL!
When I got my first street bike ('01 gsxr 600) I ended up doing a very impressive endo (I flew off and slid 60ft). I didn't understand two tier braking. Now I know not to mash the front. Even though I've had the over-the-handlebars experience, I still practice both emergency braking in a parking lot so that if the day comes again, I won't overuse or underuse the front.
Good to know that you stuck with motorcycling after an experience like that.
@notfred596 It's best to do all that type of learning on a bicycle long before getting on a motorcycle.
@shoechew I completely agree. I grew up on small dirtbikes (175 or smaller) so I (foolishly) thought it'd transfer over. I wanted to start on a 300, but my dad (who started with a big bore modded gsxr 750 in the 90s) convinced me to go with the 600 lol. Now I tell everyone to start on a 300 for a year, seriously learn the ins and outs, then go to maybe a 600. Had a buddy who wanted to get a hypermotard after I got another bike (he has ridden 1 sport bike for 5 minutes before). It took awhile to convince him not to lol
@nelsonphilip4520 Absolutely. I wouldn't have waited 4 years had my girlfriend not seriously wanted me to stop. I was ready to get back on before my broken wrists were healed lol. Broke 6 bones, skinned my back, butt, thighs, feet, and hands. I ain't done yet!
Really helpful to hear these lessons. Bottom line, go practice threshold braking, 2nd gear swerving, and parking lot crawl-speed full-lock 180deg turns. Thanks F9! Great content again.
What is "threshold braking"?
parking lot crawl speed is even part of the European bike drivers license test.
@@TedConrad you brake att the limit of what it can handle without locking up or without doing a to massive stoppie.
@@savagememes873 I think/believe they have much more rigorous testing standards than in US.
When I'm riding a bicycle, I'm ALWAYS using both break levers to stop. ALWAYS. That has trained my bird brain that it's the way you stop... so when ever I've been in sudden situations and near crashes, I've ALWAYS reacted with both levers.
That's the thing. If you do something enough, constantly... that's the way your brain reacts when you're not thinking.
This video comes one week after I crashed my bike while practicing emergency braking. Much needed thank you F9.
Better to crash in practice than crash for real.
Great video, thanks. This 70 year old spent his formative years on old British bikes with drum brakes where the 'ABS' was sort of built-in...if you know what I mean.
But the ABS on my new bike has saved me a silly 5mph spill already, so I'm a fan.
Find myself having to use a balance of front, rear and engine braking on the old brit bikes; Tend to have a bigger space cushion... you're not stopping fast in an emergency situation; Fun bikes to ride though.
Two things I learned from this, my old Hog [ABS is just a fever dream for mine] can do it and time to go back to the parking lot. I've done a couple "almost" stoppies in city traffic this season. My safe following distance is a magnet for lane changers coming up to a stop light. I'm just glad that for the most part, drivers stay back from me. I like to think it's safety, but I'm guessing it's more about deafness ... Any way, yet another excellent safety nugget from Ryan and Fortnine. Keep up the excellent work.
First thing I am doing when I get my first bike is going to a parking lot and practicing braking. I did alright in the MSF course, but I did skid the rear too many times. Still getting ABS too… but I want to learn the bike before getting it home on quiet back roads. And then I wanna keep learning the bike in a directed way, in a safe environment for a few days, before playing in too much traffic.
Thanks for the informative video.
I also would like to recommend to all riders to stay alert while On The Bike, even if you're just idling the engine.
Knowing what happens around you could help react faster to whatever comes for you.
Ride safe ✌
always ride as if people would want to run into you, sooner or later somebody will accidently behave just like you expecetd them to!
I do think you could put more emphasis on the fact that ABS saves lives. And I was taught to squeeze the front brake lever, not use it like a switch. A progressively harder squeeze works exceptionally well in preventing front wheel lockup. Outside of that this is an excellent video. I was hoping that by this time riders would know to use the front brake over the rear. Sad that this hasn't improved since I started riding in the '60s! Much more rider training is needed, and you do a great job in adding to the knowledge pool, thank you.
Yeah, he was intentionally using terrible braking technique with ABS but good braking technique without ABS - are we surprised ABS took longer to stop? The whole video was "ABS is bad" except for the last few seconds when he said use ABS anyways and only sort of explained why it was doing so badly for him.
@@ARCNA442I think the intent was more "abs isn't a replacement for skill, so don't rely on it" for the less experienced and "abs won't ruin your ability to stop" for the more experienced.
When I went to the BRC course there was a girl who had been told "don't use the front brake you'll flip" so yeah, we did a couple of minutes on why that's the worse advice you could ever give to someone ever.
I'll get ABS on my next bike if I can disable it for practice or when riding on gravel or sand.
That being said, a slow, firm progressive pull of the brake lever has served me well. The only time I've gone down braking was in my first few months when it was rainy and I was faced with the decision of stopping or turning for a stop light, neither decision was great.
Been down twice in a quarter million miles. Both times involved a "panic" stop on the same non-ABS bike. And both times involved excess (apparently?) use of the front brake and resultant lockup of the front wheel, albeit at relatively low speed. I'm here to tell you, when the front wheel of a Harley locks up, you're gonna low side. Immediately. On another note, I once played a music gig in Moose Jaw, Sk.
Should have got a Honda XD
thats where abs shines, panic braking when your brain is not all there to apple that extra maximum brake methods because well.....your not prepared, your panicked.
@@tron121that’s the thing on a bike you should be prepared all the time every single i time I see another car I am ready to come to a complete stop or shoot off course. Should never be comfortable riding a bike with todays car drivers
@@joshdaniel7894 I don't disagree, but I still like abs on my street bikes.
@@tron121 me too sorry I realize now I just added a random ass point all my bikes have abs aswell just always be alert
Having had more than one person turn left in front of me and having to engage in emergency braking, this is so important. I practiced front and rear-braking to try and be prepared, though I still nearly had a separate accident on the freeway when someone pulled in front of me and I started to fish-tail with heavy rear braking. Recovered, no accident, but plenty scary.
Practice, practice, practice, please.
Very good video. I went through bike license courses in last month and part of it was braking from 50-80km/h to stop. I quickly found out that weight transfer on a bike is far more bigger thing than on cars regarding stop distance. I could stop so much quicker when applying progressive braking. On car it is not so profound but still there. I am glad that they gave me this opportunity to understand this in controlled manner rather than getting through it in traffic.
Ryan this is great. Have you seen the abs that came with the 2014 Honda CBR1000RR ? as far as I recall it was a bit of a leap. Would be great to see the same tests performed in the rain , and on bends and with a variety of abs equipped bikes too, like the recent KTM models that have a Bosch imu.
Glad you enjoyed it! Yes some of the ABS systems on supersport bikes are nearly impossible to beat. Especially in "race" mode where it will let you float the rear. ~RF9
Yes, just like the Aprilia tuono and RSV4 ABS wich can be trickled up or down as you want with just a tap of a switch. 0 to 9 increment ABS intrusive power.@@FortNine
and on the aprilia dorsoduro 1200 the abs just gave up on braking on gravel 😂@@christianouellette9995
I've never beaten my ABS on my 2007 or 2014 BMW. I think that is a rare skill. Bret Tkacs had me squeeze both my brakes as hard as possible immediately in the rain at 40mph and I stopped faster than I could beat without going into ABS. I should try it now that I have more experience. But I have no problem squeezing the crap out of my levers if need be, no 2 stages., unless in gravel with ABS off.
Thank you to your entire team. The consistent quality, clear explanations of complex systems is so refreshing. Your channel is my favorite motorcycle content on TH-cam.
Blah blah. We've heard this comment a thousand times. Let it go already.
I was about 12 years old when I practiced locking up the front tire on my big sisters bicycle that had a really powerful brake at the front. I did it on a slight downhill, down to a level concrete pad with coarse surface. It had a miniscule ramp on the edge that gave the front tire just enough lift to get it to lock up. Years later I trained locking up the front tire a bit on a scooter on some parking lot that had a spot with really smooth asphalt. Often when it's slippery at winter and I ride a bicycle, I have the tendency to try and to lock the front and keep the tire in a skid as long as I can without losing balance. It's kinda like a small challenge to do it every once in a while. Though I haven't ridden pretty much anything powered on two wheels since 17.
The design of ABS was never to shorten stopping distance, it's entire purpose is to maintain steering control. This has been it's goal since Bosch first produced the system for Mercedes in the early 80s.
Indeed. ABS is commonly misunderstood in that regard.
Yes and no. Maintaining control is an important part of it, but it does tend to shorten stopping distances in the real world.
@@ARCNA442 especially if the rider cannot apply braking techniques to minimize stopping distance. say when your panicked. so while some might be able to beat abs in a parking lot while practicing, less will be able to do it when I counts.
@@ARCNA442it was byproduct but not an intention. You can look up photos of mercedes first abs car etc - they are mostly showing how well it behaves when the ground is wet, usually how you can still maneuver around the problem.
Also abs makes you stop worse on snow (sometimes I guess) because snow pilling up in front of tires helps to stop in those sketchy conditions
@@cyjanek7818 The issue ABS has with snow/dirt is that it tries to keep the wheels spinning on top of the loose surface rather than letting them lock up and dig through it to a firmer surface that provides better traction.
I've racing motocross for many years, a pro-tip that almost nobody knows:
Use your back brake slightly before the front, that way you maintain the back of the back lower, heavier, and you'll stop faster!
I'm doing this with my crf 250.
It's very effective in dangerous trails as well, especially if you have a passenger and can't use brakes to maneuver.
You missed the consistency of ABS. It's much better in less than ideal conditions.
Also you can (and will) out brake ABS in straight line in cars but once any sort of steering and/or imperfection on the surface (if only one side is wet for example) is introduced you will spin without ABS.
Well said, parking lot practice is the only time when you can beat ABS.
ABS can be problematical on cars. Back to statement that humans can evaluate consequences while ABS can only react, ABS always prioritizes control. Snow in particular ABS may severely cut back braking to a fraction of what it is in dry conditions as it tries to prevent lockup even when the snow is perhaps a really thin layer, max braking force then becomes what that thin layer supports. What the ABS can't know is that if wheels become locked the tires cut thru that layer to the pavement underneath. Or assume there is more snow, again ABS limits to the traction of snow while wheel lock will pile up snow ahead helping to brake faster. In every case wheel lock cause momentary loss in directional stability but the driver can selectively let off to regain control as needed.
Thank you!! I was so sick of people calling me insane for trying to explain these exact same points!! Got taught and demonstrated this 12 years ago when I got my licence.
ABS 100% gave me the confidence to brake hard enough on good tires to avoid a near-death crash in the rain. I was sunned at how fast it went from 150kph to almost zero.
@IStripesIthey mean exactly what they said, I think? What a ridiculous question
@IStripesI150kmph emergency braking in the rain is a recipe for death
it's true that tires offer more grip in wet conditions that one is inclined to assume but nothing stops quickly at 150kph. it takes about a football field to stop at that speed in dry conditions...
@IStripesIit's only 93 mph. And that would be allowed on the Autobahn... Although it wouldn't be allowed to make an emergency brake without a reason on it.
Swerving is better than stopping
Theeguy in the van in the background when Ryan brakes at 2:00!
Here again after a few months and practice, thank you sooo mich for the tips, @fortnine! Really made a difference
Got brake checked so hard I pulled my first stoppie... Glad to know I use the front and rear brakes together and stop straight lol.
Edit: it was a rolling stoppie. Started around 60mph and rear wheel hit the ground around maybe 20-30mph.
Got into a crash yesterday. It was fairly low speed and I had gear on so luckily just a few scrapes on me and the bike. Things happen so quick that you definitely do not have time to think about what to do.I'll echo what others have said and I think the one thing we all should be doing is practicing emergency braking every now and then. Shiny side up, friends.
Totally agree about the time to think part of your comment.
Hopefully you got your self an abs bike this time.
@@angrysocialjusticewarrior The bike and myself are both fine + it has ABS!
I always learned it as ABS doesn't make you stop faster, it just makes sure you can still steer while panic breaking.
And that is the whole point of ABS...
@Cobb Trying to steer whilst braking might sort of work with a car. With a motorcycle you have still loaded up the front tyre and any steering will take it off its widest contact patch. Just some thoughts for you to ponder from a riding instructor
a lot of people think abs is better at stopping and it simply is not. Ive taught a number of riders in courses and had to show the difference between the two. glad you put this up.
You put so much effort into your show,I really appreciate it, always great entertainment and right on the money,thanks .
Great video. When I learned to drive a motorcycle 15 years ago ( in France ), ABS was still an option and our bikes from the riding school did not have it. So we had to learn to the technique you described in your video !
Thanks for the coverage on ABS. In the future can you cover whether or not dual disc brake performs better than the single one ?
(talking pedal bikes here) Mtn Biking and trying to do slow technical stuff helps tremendously with ingraining threshold braking and using both brakes appropriately.
The van driver at 2:12 😂
The proliferation of riders "rev bombing" into an accident, rather than dealing with it, also doesn't help with the lack of applying the front brake.
I feel like that's at least in part the result of watching too much youtube vloggers who do it due to false incentives. Creating conflict, rev bombing, almost crashing is so much better for clicks than riding defensively in a way that the situation never ever happens.
So linked braking really is a great option, would be interesting to see how that helps. Great video
I was thining the same thing. I used to ride a VFR800 with linked brakes. I know some people didn't like the loss of control, but it made quick grab or stab at the brakes feel much effective.
grew up on a bicycle, so I instinctively pull both in clutch and front brakes (slowly as not to superman off my handlebars) in emergencies (and then stall once stopped lol)
I agree with everything you have demonstrated but when I first worked on cars with ABS fitted we were told that " it didnt stop you any quicker it merely gave you the ability to steer the car because if you lock up you have no control over your direction " I have avoided a collision in the rain on my bike with ABS because whilst braking I was able to steer the bike as well. Great videos mate .
I'm wondering where he ever got the idea that ABS was intended to make you stop faster. I've never heard it before and have only, ever, heard the correct information, that it helps you maintain steering control while stopping hard.
@@johngaltline9933 On cars race ABS do make you stop faster because of the intervention frequency. For a human is simply impossible to hit the perfect braking application, but again, I'm taling about race ABS, not normal car
@@lorenzorubino2195 I’m not familiar enough with the systems in place in top level motor sports , but if, in fact, they are capable of monitoring braking force, and manage to not actually ever let the wheels lock somehow, then it is possible that you can get a shorter stopping distance by holding the wheels right at the point where they would lock if any more pressure was applied… assuming the road surface and tires do provide more friction that way than with the increased contact patch that a locked tire will provide. If the wheels are locking as they do in typical ABS, even being locked and released at very high speeds, the physics still say it is impossible to stop faster with less friction applied to the ground.
@@johngaltline9933 yes, technically it is possible to stop before the ABS, but no driver can feel the perfect amount of force required to do so, especially during the initial part of brake release.
@@lorenzorubino2195 I mean, yes, if the system is designed to do just that, which might be the case in very high end race cars. For everyone else, locking the wheels and skidding to a stop will beat any ABS in a straight line. It will probably also beat the high end racing systems, it will just ruin the tires in the process.
Definately go and practice. I'd been riding for 5 years, had Advanced Rider certification and was on a road I know well - but when I had an emergency situation my Lizard Brain got to the levers first, grabbed the front brake like it owed it money and my front wheel went bye-bye.
And ABS might have saved me from crashing, but good gear and an airvest saved me from dying.
Ride safe everyone ❤
Air bag vest, the most sensible gear after helmet! Yet no one wears them. Good for you that you had one. I hope you didn't suffer too many injuries. There are many older bikes that I'd love to own, but no ABS is no go for me.
Luck saves you from dying. If your crash is so severe, that you could die from it, no gear in the world is gonna save you. Had a frontal crash with only a T-Shirt and street pants on. Not a scratch on me. Bike was fucked, disassembled it and sold the parts on ebay.
I now wear expensive riding gear but I always have in mind that these items will only prevent skin burn from sliding. If you hit anything with speed, you are fucked.
@@yl9154 Broke my left radius and had to get it pinned, plus a depression fracture on my knee. Also my Suzuki Intruder went to ride on a farm 😥
Still, all better now and on a brand new Rebel 1100 😁
@@majormassenspektrometeryou understand the concept of airbags?
@@majormassenspektrometer Oh so everyone in MotoGP are the luckiest people on Earth? All of them would be dead if it weren't for airbag technology.
This is exactly what I learned when I took an extra motorcycle course! And this shows me again how valuable this training is. Before I took this training I only used the front brake. Now I use rear first and moments after the front and my brake distance is now so much shorter. They also tought us the threashold braking as well and now the pattern went into my muscle memory.
Been saying it for years... I'd rather stop before I get to the object I might hit... than have to worry about steering around said object.
ABS should very much be an option in the automotive world again, not a manditory. Same with Traction Control and Anti-Slip systems...
My right foot is my ABS, and my brain the VDC. Hate invasive computer controls.
As a commuter pedal cyclist (I know, *ptouie*), I have definitely learned and practices a similar panic stop. I now instinctively full grab the _front_ break! and don't go hiney over 'spresso machine. What I've learned to do is to "throw" the bike forward (ie: myself back) so that I drop behind the seat and dramatically move the COG back so that max breaking can occur. Works pretty good! No ABS on my 10 speed, so live and learn!
I never really understood how to coexist with ABS until I worked with it off road. Do as Ryan says, practice, but do it one better and practice on dirt/sand/gravel. Hint: you need to make the input gradually and smoothly, just like you make all your other inputs.
It would be interesting to see how it would play out on a wet surface.
More or less the the same relative to each other, but with all brake distances being longer overall I assume,
I realise now i have been using threshold braking for my bycicles when in emergency or just for fun when going fast, for years, not only that, but the rider can affect massively to reduce even further the stopping distance. by setting the weight further back on the edge of the bycicle seat, or bike if no passenger is with you. Great video!
An experienced professional driver can outperform ABS, by a little. But for the other 99.9999999999999999999999999% of humans, ABS will do better, especially when you panic brake.
Wrong. Sorry corporate apologist. Go get your booster.
they are comparing apples to oranges... panic brake slam vs perfectly controlled manual braking instead controlled vs controlled and panic vs panic ...
@@Asghaad It wouldn't be great click bait if the comparison was accurate.
Did you know there are some of the motorcycle riders who live on dirt roads ? There are motorcycle riders who live on dirt roads and also ride on dirt trails ... And still others go over the river and through the woods to grandmother's house they go ..in these kinds of situations ABS does not work well to say the least ... One person said with all dirt bikes you can at least turn off ABS on the rear brake of adventure bikes ... That would be insane ...ABS, lean angle ,traction and wheelie control is good for a Gold Wing on wet greasy pavement ,, but that's about it .. adventure bikes that weigh 550 lbs or more .The rider decided he will take a new trail and getting there he blows right through a stop sign that has weeds over grown so he doesn't see it in time , hits the brakes and nothing happens because the ABS will not allow the tires to stop slipping on dirt ...in the trail same thing on an extra steep down hill.
@@Asghaad The point is, most people panic brake in an emergency and in a panic brake condition, ABS is better.