Can a Human BEAT ABS?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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Can a human beat ABS? To find out, we tested the braking distance with ABS on against a racing driver and a regular driver with ABS off.
So, how does ABS keep that stopping distance so consistent? The Anti-lock Braking System means that the car can stop in the same distance whether it’s your Gran or Lewis Hamilton behind the wheel.
It uses wheel speed sensors to detect when a wheel starts to lock up. You can see in the slow motion footage that it’ll then adjust the braking force up to 15 times a second to keep the wheels rolling. The advantage is that you retain as much steering control as possible under heavy braking and the other obvious benefit is that you’re not skidding uncontrollably into an accident. A tyre that’s skidding has far less traction than one that isn’t, just think of what it’s like driving on ice.
So, with that in mind, what happens when a normal driver tries the same stop from 60mph with the ABS off? To find out, we needed to pull the fuse for the ABS and put Will behind the wheel of the MX-5
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by pulling the ABS fuse, you also deactivate the ABD which controls the break bias between the wheels...so you have even worse breaking
Exactly the only way that this test would be fair is you completely removed the ABS system and converted the system to manual breaks with a proportioning valve
Doesn’t matter keeps it exciting to drive
I also drive with a broken balance bar in front in rain or snow my front snaps 😂
@@Thanos.m That wouldn't be fair. You're relying on partial computer system which is similar to ABS
@@club6525 partial computer system ? In full manual brakes there isn't anything electronic a proportioning valve is just a simple mechanical device that allows proportionate front and rear bias which is necessary since there is only one pedal therefore you can't control bias fully manually
A major difference between ABS and a human is that ABS controls braking force per wheel while human controls overall braking force. So when only one tire slips the ABS has advantage of around 20% more braking power. So I would say that unless we have a way to control braking force for each wheel independently (good luck with that) we're not going to beat ABS. I'm kind of curious how long would braking distance without ABS be while we don't care about traction, just smash the pedal and hope for the best.
They have a previous video on this topic, and that's exactly what they compared
@@DeltaInsanity Thanks I found it.
One more thing I noticed - if this is a third gen Mazda MX5 (NC) it should come with EBD (electronic brakes distribution). I might be wrong but disabling ABS might be also disabling EBD which leads to too much braking force in the rear (no proportional valve to limit that as it was done electronically) which leads to rear wheels locking to easily at higher speeds. So in theory turning off ABS might set your brake balance as 50-50 (F-R) as default which is not great.
Yeah just 4 more pedals. No biggie
@@Doktoreq I prefer the 31-69 distribution, nice
Could be interesting to test the difference in time taking a corner with or without abs
Have you replaced the tires between runs? Because flatspotting can seriously hamper breaking performance, and the first guy flatspotted all 4 tires for certain.
My 1989 Mercedes had so bad ABS, that I was able to stop almost half the distance without it. Probaly bad sensor causing it to activate even when not actually needed. 34 years works wonders :D
Daiki Ninomiya: Hold my beer
If you have to go on a Police driver re-education course you will discover that the official line is that ABS does not alter the stopping distance at all, but merely allows you to steer and maintain control under braking.
This is the official line and they allow no argument.
Just as they argue that those stopping distances in the Highway code are still valid and accurate after 75 years.
If you don't care about being able to steer the car while breaking (or the tires), wouldn't the shortest distance be to absolutely smash the breaks and lock up all wheels until it stops?
No because then the tires are just sliding and your braking distance would actually increase. On gravel that could be better but on the road no
I think the main advantage of ABS is it can go on each individual wheel instead of having to work with the weakest link
I thought it was interesting that it's a light car with a person in the driver's seat (right side for a UK market car) and he had trouble keeping the left tires (less weight) from locking up.
@@julianbrelsford Believe in JESUS today, confess and repent of your sins. No one goes to heaven for doing good but by believing in JESUS who died for our sins. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.(John 3:16)🥳❤️
@MEGAPINT Knowing how to do something in theory and actually doing it in an emergency situation are two different things. Even professional race car drivers often lock up the brakes when trying to avoid another car that suddenly spun out in front of them.
@@alunesh12345
Screw your control method.
There was one test that I think might have been interesting alongside this, keeping ABS on but trying to break to the edge of it. Thus you only dip into ABS occasionally that in theory at least ought to smooth out the balance differences a bit and allow more use of the threshold, maybe. Surprised to see the ABS win so comprehensively.
How would you dip into ABS occasionally if you break it? Lol
threshold braking on with ABS on is outright faster than just slamming the brake and let ABS take over the braking.
At least on motorcycle where you can individually adjust brake force of each wheel.
With the older systems, providing an apples to apples comparison, humans did in fact out perform ABS by a wide margin. But this is with expert drivers. That's the rub. Most people are average or subpar drivers and attention is lacking. Which means even with less effective braking of the older ABS, greater than average results were reasonably expected. Heck, people, especially women, still commonly incorrectly apply the brake peddle to allow the ABS to provide best results.
ABS has only gotten better in the decades they've been around because of lower cost sensors and reduced manufacturing costs.
@@justanothercomment416 that's plenty interesting but how does that help him if his abs is broken? He's planning on trying to break the sucker right at the edge, clean off I'm assuming
Also this depends on the ABS system, we had a Dodge Durango that cycled the brakes like once a second. Definitely beatable. The abs on our Mini Clubman was so blistering fast I don't think any human could beat it.
You never said : don't try this at home
I am gonna try this
jokes aside, good drivers should try this (in a safe and responsible manner!) to see what it's like and not be scared to rely on it if an emergency arises 😉
@@SpaceMissile ahh . Don't worry i will never do this in a unsafe location. I not the best driver ☺️ . I wanna be one . I wanna try this on a safe , empty ground . I wanna destroy my tyres
I live in Sweden and when we're taking our drivers license one of the onroad tests is the ABS. Obviously in a controled environment or a wide road with no other drivers around. And we also have a seperate tests which involves hasards such as aquaplaning, animals etc, and here we also test the ABS.
And that was in a straight line. Imagine needing to brake hard AND needing to turn to change la e for example
If you find yourself needing to brake and turn at the same time, then you already fucked up.
@@colehartel7206 That's why ABS exists tho. Humans fuck up.
There should never be a time where you have to use both your steering wheel and the break pedal at the same time
When racing maybe, but on public roads and highways, having to both brake and swerve is unfortunately something that happens for a multitude of reasons.
@@stonksmcmeme & @droussel are on point, ABS is far superior in emergencies because of steerability.
Rock hard ABS
Tommo !!!
The most important upgrade you can do to your brake system is tires. If abs kicks in easily you don't need better brakes, you need more traction.
I've always said this!
In fact some years ago a friend asked me how to make his brakes better and I told him to fit some proper tyres (he used to fit remoulds!) and he was confused as according to him the tyres have nothing to do with the brakes 😂
EXACTLY!!!! the limits of basically every force on a car is on the tyres, even if you got ABS without a good set of tyres you will probably crash
...or the brake bias is off.
@@skylined5534 I've been laughed to scorn for telling people that brakes don't stop the car, the tires stop the car...
Just to add to the mix, ~15 years ago I did the same thing with my BMW R1200GS motorcycle, equipped with ABS. Maybe the tech has improved, or is different for motorcycles, but I could consistently beat the stopping distance of the ABS manually modulating the brake levers (which is almost entirely front wheel braking under heavy load.) Only problem is, getting it wrong, in the heat of a critical moment (vs the low stress of testing) means washing out the front end and crashing. So, for me, ABS was still safer.
Motorcycle ABS has come very very far. Check out ProABS/cornering ABS from KTM: th-cam.com/video/hHRWg91hv-M/w-d-xo.html
Compared to traditional ABS, cornering ABS keeps the bike from standing up and straightening out under heavy braking, and it also prevents you from locking the wheels and dumping the bike.
Motorbike ABS has only just started to reach a point where it’s decent, the Bosch cornering ABS systems Ducati Ktm and others use now are amazing.
@@Jonathan_Doe_ "Motorbike ABS has only just started to reach a point where it’s decent" Bullshit. Bikes from around 2010 already had GREAT ABS. Newer ABS systems are better yes, but no way the old ones were less than decent.
@@mrfatmanjunior bruh I’m so old when I say recently that basically includes from 2000 onwards 😂😂
@@Jonathan_Doe_ ABS was super, super rare in the 2000's. Trust me even the old ABS systems are better than no ABS.
this test is flawed because youre attempting to use a system thats designed for use with ABS, without it. it is not designed for that situation and thus, is incorrectly biased. im certain that installing a proportioning valve or two would change the results of this test. he managed to get very close to the abs distance with a flawed system for manual braking.
i dont remember who it was but many years ago, there was a F1 driver who easily managed to out brake an abs equipped car.
Intresting. but a proportioning valve can be used with an abs and enhance braking even more. so again you do not compare the same things.
as far as the f1 driver, if it was over a decade ago, the abs technology was far less advanced and could not handle each tire seperately. with today technology, there is no way to beat abs consistently in scenarios like this(emergency braking on a straight line).
The abs does not lock and unlock the wheel at short random times. It consistently keeps each tire at max grip, that can offer up to 20% more efficient braking power than if you could handle perfectly 4 wheels at the same time. Streetwise, it can't get better. In track is a whole other discussion.
The deactivated ABS system affecting the brake pedal ‘feel’ slightly may have had a very tiny role in this result. Servos also remove some feel from the pedal, it’d be interesting to see this test again with the car converted to a non assisted master cylinder with bias control setup.
Older one or two channel ABS systems could easily be beaten by a trained driver threshold braking, 3 and 4 channel systems with independent solenoids for each front wheel, and one or separate solenoids for the rear… Very hard to beat. As these results show.
Nice thoughts; I think the non-ABS car would benefit, comparatively, from the comparison being two people (roughly equal weight) in the seats for the ABS and non-ABS tests. Seems like the pro driver was experiencing wheel lock up on the non-driver side different runs and the reduced weight on the wheels on that side was responsible from what I could tell.
@@julianbrelsford Believe in JESUS today, confess and repent of your sins. No one goes to heaven for doing good but by believing in JESUS who died for our sins. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.(John 3:16)🥳❤️
@@alunesh12345 why are you commenting that here? Do you realize how counterproductive it is to randomly come into people's lives and force religion upon them? There's a time and place for that, and this time and place only makes a net negative force in the universe.
I don’t think a human could beat ABS, but if we had a 4 motor electric car we could probably run the normal brakes at like 90% and then control the last 10 ish % with the motors, since computer and electric components can reach the GHz speed unlike mechanical systems
there is an idea in some racing schools where your left without ABS for most of your schooling and introduce abs towards the end as a human with abs can outperform just full break force abs
Would be amazing to see the same test on a loose dirt road! The saying is that ABS performs poorly on loose surfaces, and I am wondering just how true that is.
abs will roll you into the bushes at 5 mph in the snow because it never locks all the way up to actually stop you. it slows and slows and slows and slows aaaaaaaaannnnnndddd wait a seconddddddddddddd okay youre stopped... you couldve stopped 4 feet sooner by just locking all fours at said 5 mph
can second that. ABS is terrible on snow/ice. it keeps the car straight, but stopping distance is way worse
@@bigbud4sure ive seen many an accident on youtube where a slide (typically off a highway following a fishtail) would be checkmate with abs simply because you cant lock the wheels up and continue sliding to a stop in a straight line. its a very rare situation so i get it, but its still completely unreasonable to me that i can physically avoid a crash but a computer wont let me
the only time ive ever crashed a car is with abs on dirt roads. absolutely horrible and will just chatter the wheels if the tiniest bit of slip happens
Lots of magazines have done this test. Results were wildly inconsistent, but did often win without abs. Problem is, you loose all steering control.
ABS wasnt originally designed to stop you faster, its there so you maintain control of the car. Much more important 99%of the time.
Now add some bumps and dirt on the road and enjoy 50-60 meters with ABS and still sub-40 without :) It would be a great system if it was allowed to overpush it and lock some wheels when needed. I drive for more than 15 years and still prefer to always disable ABS on my cars to always have predictible brakes and don't deal with glitchy computer in critical situations. The only exception is a race track as it's to expensive to buy new tires after a single wheel lock at the high speed :)
Overall, ABS is a great advancement. It is also worth considering that not all ABS functions the same across various models. Also, at least conventional ABS that I'm familiar can reduce braking effectiveness on loose surfaces like snow or gravel. Maybe there are some recent improvements, but I don't know.
Off-road ABS exists and has for a few years. It’s prevalent on bikes mostly. And the off-road ABS on a 1250GS outbreaks almost everyone
I would expect that the loose surface tuning in modern cars with traction control is far superior to basic ABS in early cars that only had ABS, particularly with the move to compact SUVs over sedans - for all their faults compared to lower riding compact cars manufacturers are tuning them to handle low traction surfaces.
To quote my vehicle dynamics prof: "Unless you can actuate 4 independent brake pedals 800 times per second to correct the braking force per wheel, you are worse than ABS"
To be fair, I think it is way harder to brake with a car that has a braking system, which is optimized for ABS and has ABS turned off, than with a car that does not have ABS at all. It is way harder to modulate the pedal imo. So to me it seems like this is an unfair comparison for non-ABS-braking.
Interesting
For brake by wire I'd agree, but this is still pushing on a standard hydraulic system so it should be representative.
@@Southghost5997 It's more about the brake balance and the sizing of the master brake cylinder.
@@Southghost5997 brake bias/balance will be all over the place though.. As the locking up of different wheels each time shows.
You won't beat ABS anyway. No car allows the driver to brake individual wheels.
You shouldn't compare ABS-enabled car to ABS-disabled, but to non-ABS car with mechanical brake distributor instead. Removing ABS fuse makes your car brake worse than non-ABS car because of absolute absence of brake distribution. Brake distributor installed in the rear end and connected to rear suspension will adjust rear axle braking force according to suspension position - the more car leans forward, the less brake force is applied. Being set correctly this system allows to brake much better than ABS, though you need to get used to it on specific surface each time.
I'm a litte experienced in the control unit calibration work in the car industry. From what I understand you not only loose ABS when pulling the fuse, you also loose the brake bias control. Modern cars are usually set up for a more or less 50:50 brake bias, since the rear can take quite much braking force, as long as the weight transfer has not "happend" yet. Therefore 50:50 brake bias on initial braking input and ABS handles the rest.
If you pull the fuse, you end up without ABS (obviously) and a horrific brake bias.
You can tell from Scotts attempt at 6:28 and 6:57, where the rear looses traction while the front is doing ok. Great job on that attempt, Scott! Probably not going to get much better...
My 2002 Priuses front brakes are fly-by-wire. If you pull the ABS fuse, you have very limited braking power, it's like driving a car with no power brakes.
for someone who is "experienced", you sure make a lot of incorrect statements.
brakes ARE NOT 50/50 brake bias on most vehicles. thats EXTREMELY ignorant.
it will depend on vehicle, but most vehicles' bias is set mechanically, not electrically. in some situations, you are correct. in others, you are not. it just depends.
the rear loses traction due to weight transfer, how you do not understand that as someone who is "experienced"?
talk less, listen more.
@@OxBlitzkriegxO You are absolutely correct on both your points. The bias is set mechanically, and the rear looses traction because of weight transfer. No denying on that.
But since weight transfer does not happen instantly, there is a time at the very beginning of the braking phase, where the rear can take 50% brake force (assuming the weight distrebution of the vehicle is close to 50/50) without instantly locking up the rear.
As soon as the weight shifts, the rear can't take it anymore (as you correctly said). That's the point where ABS kicks in and modulates brake pressure on the rear, virtually altering the bias.
Most modern road cars are set up like that to maximise breaking performance (by utilizing the rear more at the start of the braking phase).
Without the fuse this does not happen, therefore you "stay" at 50/50 and the rear starts to loose it. Well, most likely not exactly 50/50, but way more rear biased than, let's say, a properly set up non ABS vehicle.
@@OxBlitzkriegxO Most vehicles - you mean most older than 02/03. Almost anything newer is equipped with EBD (electronic brake distribution). The 3-channel ABS system (most advanced) treated both rear wheels as one due to technical limitation of proportioning valve being in the way. EBD is a step-up from that. It removes the need for proportioning valve as the brake bias is controlled electronically. This allows to exert more braking force in the rear due to initial brake distribution being 50:50 (this changes during braking to more conventional values), shortening the braking distance. The drawback is that with proportioning valve out of the system, when ABS and EBD turns off (they can't function separately) your stuck with 50:50 brake distribution whole time, so your much more likely to lock the rear.
Mazda MX5 third gen (NC) used in the video comes with EBD from factory.
Fun fact: torque vectoring, e-differential, ESC and a lot of TC systems require ABS and EBD to function (It's all basically one system but it's separated for marketing reasons).
Did you miss the part where he mentioned this in the video?
Thing is, even if a human _could_ beat ABS some of the time, it is the consistency that is the issue. You might be able to do it well when practicing, but could you still do it in a panic stop situation? It has to be instinctual, and that take a ton of practice, if its even possible at all, as I've seen plenty a race car driver lock the brakes and not pump them before collision.
I thought you'd get closer, and maybe beat it on ONE attempt, but you made an interesting point I hadn't thought of, ABS has control over each individual wheel, and I think that's going to be the big difference. Aside from the one time I freaked out the ABS on my BRZ at the track and got a flat spot, my already high trust in ABS is now even a little higher.
Can a Human BEAT ABS?
yes, but not reliably or on command or in most cases. there's a reason it's considered a performance enhancer in racing. however perfectly controlled consistent braking force IS superior to pulsed actuation, we just don't really have a technology for that yet.
I generally advocate for abs and traction control for regular cars… but I’m really surprised neither could beat ABS with that many tries. I didn’t consider the electronic brake force distribution though and guaranteed that will make it impossible to beat.
I am more than happy to have both but for traction control. Just please give me a button that allows for 100% on and 100% off.
The cars braking system isnt optimized for non-wheel-independent modulation, even the front rear bias could be massively off
@@josealcazar2922 Believe in JESUS today, confess and repent of your sins. No one goes to heaven for doing good but by believing in JESUS who died for our sins. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.(John 3:16)🥳❤️
Abs yes, 100%. But traction control is just dangerous imo.
ive had (on mazdas) several situations where mid corner the tc kicks in and tried to put me in a ditch. When i was no where near breaking traction.
Its like halfway through a corner the car just attempts to straighten itself out by braking individual wheels while the steering is still pointed where i want to go. Its extremely unnerrving and imo, downright dangerous.
Wait till you try abs and stability on a motorbike, a gamechanger
With a little practice you can easily get shorter breaking distance on dry tarmac without ABS, in winter with ice and snow ABS is downright dangerous and you can get up to 1/3 the breaking distance by turning it off.
It is not without reason several sports cars still have no ABS, a trained person get shorter breaking distance even then the most modern ABS. The real advantage with ABS is that you can more easily steer while breaking, it is NOT better at breaking.
Also I have seen other test the same, but with locked wheels and then saying ABS is better... You do NOT break with locked wheels, that is just stupid and show that you do not know how to drive a car...
Much better than the older video. But still flawed. The MX5 brakes are designed with the ABS in mind. So who knows what the front/rear bias is. Bypass all the electronics, add an adjustable proportioning valve, give the drivers a car that can be designed to work without ABS. Even with a poorly adjusted system, an average driver with no experience driving non-ABS cars was able to get within 5m of the ABS baseline. I bet a properly designed system would let the pro get within striking range of the ABS.
We also have to remember that ABS has been refined for a long time now - early ABS were a bit crude and can probably be beaten, but any vaguely modern system is realistically unbeatable.
You guys should try this in the snow as it will take more time for the wheel to unlock and because abs is so aggressive you could probably beat it by a lot…
During driving ed we we're on a slippery course and compared braking with and without ABS. We turned the car off to achieve braking without ABS and we did not let off the brakes when decelerating. Without ABS resulted in a shorter braking distance, but the car also did a 180 doing it so not ideal to do in traffic.
@@ra420m bro why tf was my behind the wheel not fun like that
A 5m average behind abs.. I'll stick with my all hydraulic non electronic , manually adjustable bias brakes. Like the guy said abs can only help when trouble happens. A human can predict conditions and prepare. Abs can not. Abs just makes drivers reckless because they never Learn the limits of their machines and just expect the abs to do all the work.
I tried this test from 100kmph in my nonABS 1984 Mitsubishi hatchback and got 27 metres on my first run and 29 and 30 metres on 2nd and third attempt.
Not bad for 40+ year old car with only a drum to disk rear conversion.
I think this channel was started just so Scott can refer to himself as a professional racing driver.
I would love to see this test repeated over different surface conditions (damp, wet, snow, ice) and different tire/brake setups per condition. I'd wager the stock ABS system is optimized for stock braking/tire components on dry pavement and would significantly struggle on say performance wet/dry tires on snow versus a competent driver.
It would still best any human in damp or wet scenarios. I suspect the human only control would have a more favourable outcome in snow, however.
@@skylined5534 I'd agree that damp/wet on stock suspension and tires the ABS most likely wins, but I honestly don't know what the effects would be with high-performance suspension tires on a stock ABS module. I've empirically (anecdotally) validated on several cars I've driven that I can stop quicker on compact snow/ice. That being said, I think it would also be neat to test a timeline of ABS systems (although that would be much more difficult to control for i.e. how do you put a 2023 ABS system in a 2001 Miata or a 2001 system in a 2023 Miata?).
Street cars have crappy brake bias. If you fix the bias, a race driver will be able to replicate abs stopping distance.
brake force balance is set to suit abs as best as possible. you would need a different distribution of front and rear brake force in order to suit a human better. and then you would be able to beat the abs system consistently.
not your fault, the game is rigged from the start.
Would be interesting to see time differences and consistency between using TC and no TC mainly on a wet surface, always wonder if its a strategically advantageous to use it on a slippy surface despite it feeling slow.
Also no tc on awd
One thing I've ran into with ABS on, or at least the traction control systems. Is that when I am trying to slow down for a turn in icy conditions is that the traction control (controlled by ABS) likes to keep the vehicle going straight despite the direction I'm trying to turn. I've had a few times where I nearly ended up in the ditch because of that and ended up turning the traction control off to make those turns.
Worth noting, with the system off, I could get the car to make the turns at the slow speed I was attempting.
The graphic say "no abs avg 34" but that's actually the abs avg...
Yeah. I noticed this too
Plz don't mention Hamilton. He's played the race card way to often to be a real champ
I'd have cut the first two results from Scott. He just had to discover how this is done. And I'm surprised how close he could get to the numbers with ABS on at the end. Thanks for another nice test! And I'd like to second the proposal from Paul Keeble. Is a race driver (Scott) able to stop faster, if he tries to brake at the edge of triggering the ABS, without turning it of?
I think that leaving those in is part of the point of the video. He has years of racing experience and it still took him a couple of tries to get close.
like they said, in real life you don't get to sail straight through the kid who stepped into the road, say "oops! sorry!! I didn't quite estimate the required brake force correctly that time" and have another go, road conditions, tyre condition, tyre and brake temps change all the time, you're always going to either get it wrong the first time or be lucky to get it right the first time, meanwhile with modern ABS systems you'll pretty much always get 90%+ of what the brakes are capable of at any given moment.
But that is the huge advantage of ABS it gets close to the limit, first time, every time.
@@RWoody1995 yeah youre right. you could outperform an abs but then you need conditions that arent given in rl circumstances. humans are imo always capable of outperforming car electronics but are mostly never capable to do it when its needed. but also im for learning to drive without such assistance, like learning to brake if the system is failing. i learned driving a bike without abs. i often wish i would have got one but i dont want to relie on such a system. nice to have but mandatory to be able without!
thats why i trained braking on the bike. if you relie on assistance you shouldnt have a license because you are lost without it.
sadly driving schools are to modern and if something fails YOU WILL fail. so sad..... and thats in germany where laws get out of hand. and every fuckin car should have so much assistance that you shouldnt even have to do more then steering.
relieing on a machine is imo more insane then driving without by far. i also tried drifting in the snow on the bike and i learned a lot about saving my bike if the front starts slipping and how to "power"drift. okay 125c c15hp and such a rough idle that 100% throttle at idle meant that the wheel broke lose even though the power wasnt enough at 15hp if i used the gas softly. very interessting experience!.
think about it , half the torque and by far less power and the kick was enough to lose traction while full power and torque wasnt enough if delivered smoothly.
ever had such an experience? i mena kinda logic. if you drop your clutch hard they tires just get ripped of "before they can grip" the surface (even though that this is scientific wrong because of the torque spike not the missing gripping because it always has traction at some degree)
"I'd have cut the first two results from Scott"
So you'd fake the results? Nice.
Now I would love to see a brake bias system installed and watch the guys fiddle and tune it just right to see if they can beat it
There is one test i would like to see. The same test on gravel (or snow), which atleast in the 80's/90's was claimed to be better without ABS. Albeit the abs then was worse than now. The same was said for snow. (that was the reason audiclaimed for having a ABS shut of button in the dash at the time)
for sure in the snow condition you can beat the ABS, with experience I barely engage ABS anymore... It's icy well just need less brake a longer distance. I did the test on my way to work one day and if a floor the pedal for maximum force it just pulse and barely slow the car to the point of blowing a stop sign but the car was still straight. on the other hand, if I brake until the ABS pulse and come back a little to avoid it kick in, it slow a lot better to the point it the seatbelt that retain me in. I did it on winter tire more wider (235 instead of 215 with the most wider contact patch for that size) and I'm in Canada... Also the sound the snow make during braking is important to know the grip, if it slip the sound goes away(or you are stopped) but when you brake the snow crunching noise goes higher and higher until it slip. The snow on the ground make a little mountain in front of a tire during braking
@@ItsJust2SXTs yes, still like to see a video of it 🤙
ABS developer here. Well, on deep gravel or snow, locked wheels can in some scenarios dig in and collect a wedge of gravel in front of the wheel, which may stop you very quickly indeed. One downside is that if you happen to have gravel only on one side of the car, the resulting one-sided gravel wedge will spin your car sideways, digging the now forward facing side wheels into the gravel and flipping the car over. Also, modern ABS on offroad cars can be set (manually or automatically depending on manufacturer) to some offroad ABS setting that then tries to build a wedge, then roll over it, build another one and so on. Beating ABS may still occur when offroading a car that was not made for it, but then you will have bigger problems.
Thankyou for proving all the people who say ABS doesn't reduce braking distances wrong! I have always hated it when people say that as they are assuming that you never lock the wheels. Coefficient of friction is much lower than coefficient of adhesion, which is why locking the wheels increases distances. Imagine how much worse the human will be if you now keep changing road conditions with water, gravel, mud randomly added between tests.
No one says it doesn't reduce braking distances.
We are saying humans CAN do better. And they regularly do. Look at the top GT3 drivers. If their cars use ABS, braking distances go up. Why? Because ABS REQUIRES the tire to lock up. Those drivers can ride the line so well that ABS activating does a worse job.
ABS WILL catch lock ups faster than humans, which is why GT3s still use it. But it is still NOT the best way to brake for a skilled driver.
The only time ABS does better than everyone is if the tires lock up. Then yes. ABS is better than all humans. But as far as only accounting for braking distances? Humans are capable of doing better.
The bigger difference will be when you brake and turn at the same time
Do a comparison between Modern ABS and Takumi.
Well believing that you can beat ABS on a perfect, dry road is simply unlogical, not to say stupid. why would a system that let's your car brake worse get so popular that it becomes mandatory in any car nowadays? would be really interesting to see the same test on really wet road, gravel and snow or even ice.
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Believe in JESUS today, confess and repent of your sins. No one goes to heaven for doing good but by believing in JESUS who died for our sins. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.(John 3:16)🥳❤️
You are going bout this the wrong way. You are telling people the same thing out of context and spamming it. You are enlightened that's fine, it gets annoying at some point. You haven't even figured out how to appeal to your audience and you came to the wrong audience first. Go touch some grass and get out in the world and enlighten and persuade others in a way that is effective and make you not just sound like the person who is crazed with religion. That is how the world works and it isn't going to change just for you.
Your guy on non-ABS is cheating like crazy. There's loads of tire smoke much before the cones. Cheating proves nothing.
To be clear, the racelogic box in the car in logging the distances, and that measures from whenever you pass though 60mph. The cones are just there for reference, we counted everything off the data. Which was fair
4 wheel abs requires huge power to rear brakes, more than you would actually need without abs. Another factor is the pedal feel and the master cylinder/booster setup. Only time taking the fuse out works is when stopping on ice and you still lose consistency every time
I have done the same test and my results were very different. My pedal action is different. I come to threshold and back off ever so slightly, and then increase pressure slightly as I come to a stop. These results were consistent with in the vehicle driven. Most cars I was quicker.
I guess the miata is just better than u bro
@@egullSZ Not me. Maybe the driver in this vid. I use the e-brake and pedal modulation to stop the shortest. Another trick with the e brake is when going over big bumps you can put some tension on the rear springs as you over to smooth the transition. This allows you to go over things way faster without catching air.
What about the loose surfaces (like snow) where locking wheels can actually have an advantage?
I was thinking the same thing. On dirt ABS can send you off the road, almost like having no brakes.
A lot of cars have a snow setting where abs will work differently.
You may beat it once or twice by luck, but over a lap abs is far far better. Great vid
Indeed and how likely is even a skilled driver to manage optimum braking when a child steps out from between parked cars? I suspect that ABS suffers from the assumption that ABS is no better than when it first appeared on cars however many years ago that was when it was almost certainly less sophisticated
If you slammed them on and didn’t let off you may have beaten the distance but the tyres would have suffered. Also, Motorcycles with abs is a game changer. Again loving the content keep the vids going 💪
the issue is that disabling ABS you disable EBD
You should have take a proper racing driver.
Also worth noting that this is a known braking point, you can anticipate it. Whereas ABS is even better for the times when you didn't - or couldn't - anticipate the need to brake aggressively. Even if someone got close on-track doesn't mean they'd get close on eg. drive home in dark in the rain after a long day
I'd really like to see ABS in F1. Not for safety, but I feel like the technology would be interesting to see. I feel like F1 teams could improve the safety tech in other road cars and other motorsports.
Also ABS is just faster.
Interesting that at least in sims, ABS on GT3s makes me slower because of how much it extends my braking distance if I mash the pedal. If I threshold brake and let the ABS only kick in to stop lockups to stop the unloaded tire from locking or when it hits a bump and the suspension can’t keep up, it’s a bit faster.
As always, you fell short: one last test HAD to be made with the ABS on to account for tyre wear and brake fatigue from all the tests.
You have such great ideas for the videos, but always fall short of making it more scientific. Without that final test I mentioned, the results are pretty meaningless to me.
what they did here wont wear the tires out, and since we dont know how much time there was between tests we cant conclude that brake fade was a factor
@@jackradzelovage6961 exactly. We don't know. Tyre temps could affect it from all that braking. Braking fluid temp as well. And wear could happen unevenly when hot, changing the brakes performance from one to another.
Much better video than your last one. I'm also surprised to see by how much you couldn't beat the ABS - I've been in situations where an unwanted ABS intervention genuinely seemed to reduce the braking force. As others have posted, this isn't necessarily a direct with/without comparison as ABS-equipped cars generally have a greater rear brake bias, and heavily-servo'd modern brakes make threshold braking more difficult. An interesting further comparison might be a car that was available from the factory both with and without ABS - The MK1 MX-5, perhaps? Although a thirty year old car probably isn't a great example of the state of modern ABS technology!
@drivenmedia it's a scam 👆
I used to think that ABS was a negative for a driving enthusiast in a "driver's car". But I've since changed my mind. Given that an ABS can hold each tire close to it's braking threshold, there's no way to beat it.
The negative to this is, people have come to depend on safety features like ABS, TC, stability control, etc, and now are even more brainless in their driving than they were 30 yrs ago.
Can a human beat abs videosu var overdrive kanalında profesyonel yarış pilotu bile absyi geçemiyor saniyede 400-1000 kere kaydığını anlayan bir sistemi bi insan geçemez bence de
i did this test 10 years ago and i handily beat abs. surface had less grip though.
now on mud... abs will just try to kill you every chance it gets by taking ALL braking away from you
Hello miata drivers
it's always the answer
I think I saw a similar video many years ago on a honda CBR, where a professional rider could not get close to the ABS.
The fact that you can MASH the brake and get a better result in any situation than nearly any human is also the reason they made it mandatory on cars.
It is not mandatory, there are several sports cars that do not have ABS because it is actually better without when you know how to break.
@@a64738ABS is mandatory on passenger cars and has been since 2004.
Are the rear brakes more effective with ABS? Street cars have brake balance towards front, so without ABS the front brakes lock while the rear brakes are not biting yet?
Iinteresting video.A few years ago I went on a skid pan, old Granada soaking wet, and bald tyres to make sure it skidded. It had switchable abs and they taught us cadence braking which always worked better than the abs. Does that mean abs is less effective with really low grip or maybe a more modern abs just works better?
if on dirt roads, you must turn off all assist, ABS will not allow the tires to dig in the ground and push material to pile infront. TC will constantly cut power to wheels that actually need it and upset balance, specially in a sand trap situations. saw a 2016 dodge ram at the beach once burning through its transmission because TC block power, a flat bed had to pull it out.
Apparently ABS is bad on slippery surfaces such as snow and ice and probably dirt because even light braking will cause your tyres to slip, and ABS will reduce the braking trying to get grip so much that there's barely any braking at all.
This car is designed to have ABS, there is no brake proportioning valve and may tend to lock rear wheels. In most non ABS cars you have some sort of BPV, either constant pressure, or variable one based on rear axle load to avoid going sideways.
even if you could beat abs which seems unlikely, in an emergency where all of a sudden you see something or someone pop out in front of you, you could enter a shock or fight/flight mode, you could have a split second to react, I doubt you would try remembering any techniques practiced over smashing the brake pedal, in an emergency I'd choose abs anyday, even more so in the wet.
Does the car have steel or carbon ceramic brakes because the stopping distances from that speed can be impacted by about 10 meters if there are steel brakes.
Why would it matter what brakes the car has. The tires lock better brakes won't change that
Is there anyone monitoring the entry speed and when braking occurs? Looks like the non-abs runs starts braking a lot earlier than the cones. Also a small difference in entry speed makes a big difference in stopping distance. Energy is proportional to velocity squared so a small difference in entry speed is not negligible.
IF (big IF) I could turn off the ABS on my truck, I could stop it probably 30 feet SHORTER without the ABS than with it. I removed the ABS from my 1994 Suzuki motorcycle just for that reason and to remove the 30-odd pounds of weight that it entailed. I did a "Smash-thru test" on the Suzuki. I test stopped the bike as fast as possible WITH the ABS and set-up a paper barrier at the EXACT point on the track where I had stopped. Then I removed the ABS from the bike and stopped it as fast as possible without the ABS and measured my distance from the sheet of paper- about 12 meters, then I moved the BRAKING POINT MARKER 13 METERS FORWARD to see if I could STOP before HITTING the PAPER BARRIER with HOT TIRES AND BRAKES. I did 15 times with the rear tire in the air every time on video about 250 mm! (A "stoppie"). I never touched the rear brake at all. I'm VERY good at braking on a bike or in a car or truck.
As a simcade player I'd say I can (with certain cars though, and I still leave ABS on because consistency), the main point to turn it off is when you don't have to go to zero but want to have best steering control when braking
Forgive me for my ignorance, but if we aren't worried about controlling the car under breaking and we'are strickly worried about the stopping distance, shouldnt you just go for a full skid? Wouldn't just slaming on the breaks and the the tires going full lock actually help with stoping distance? Or was the test also including control under breaking? Please someone correct me on this.
The answer is yes. Skilled individuals with great feel for the vehicle absolutely can.
Should be one run locking up the tyres at all for reference!
But nice challenge
This is confusing cos Scott as Driver 61 reckons threshold braking is better than modern abs. And this is a 17 year old abs system without ebd.
Out of interest, would it stop even quicker if the brake pedal pressure was only just enough to slightly activate the abs so the system was spending more time braking and less time pulsing?
3:46 - it says No ABS avg = 34.73m . yet Will with his no abs test are 45,39 and 42m. So not an avg of 34.7m. Did they mean to say "ABS on avg = 34.73m" ???? because that show they are comparing NO abs vs Will No ABS and Scott No ABS. ? one of those are meant to be with ABS ON.
I predicted brake unbalance problem. I was actually helping mechanic for one small racing team. We talking 3 of us was team, driver/mechanic, mechanic and me. Making brakes to brake even across temperature is just impossible. Like F1 car have brake bias adjustable and driver is doing it all the time... On road car and building tolerance... Good luck 🤞🤞 impossible.
We would sand rotors. Run in pads. Check on rollers and 5% difference left right was good result
ABS is not to achieve maximum braking performance. ABS is to locking the tires from breaking traction, skidding, due to issues with the driving surface. In optimal conditions, a trained driver WILL outbreak ABS. However, regular folks usually won't, and in wet, snowy, or icy conditions, in conditions of uneven surface or unimproved roads, or when attempting to brake and maneuver at the same time, ABS will outperform a person.
Im sorry what!?
"Professional racing driver" not being intimately proficient with "set, squeeze" braking and turning? Might need to do a weekend driver training course.
You likely screwed yourselves by just pulling the fuse though. Car is likely not tuned for that situation. Try to "beat abs" without turning abs off, using good teqnique, you will beat it. When training my partner, she beat it on her 2nd attempt, and every time after.
As other comments stated. This car was engineered for ABS. Cars engineered as non-ABS have much more pedal feedback and have a better setup brake bias and brake balance. A car with ABS doesn't mechanically limit the force to improve brake bias, rear brakes and front brakes will be setup for maximum force and let the ABS manage the rest.
This test is still very scientifically sound. I'm just saying that a car with no ABS from factory is totally different from a car with ABS "turned off".
But and interesting test would be a car from the 80s/90s where the ABS was an option. So the car was engineered for no ABS but had it has an option or a trim.
what you should have also done is, try braking using ABS completely, that is hard stomp, with the ABS working overtime the whole way.
Then try it WITH ABS on, but braking slightly less hard, with the abs as a safety net if you put too much brake pressure, you can potentially get much more consistency, as well the possibility of beating abs.
I think the question is answered before the test even begins. Can a human being beat braking distance of ABS... yes, but it does not matter, because ABS wins on consistency. What is better - to stop 100 times in a row in 35m, or to stop 99 times in 40m and 1 time in 34m? Not only that ABS allows driver to concentrate on steering, even if we assume that driver is super human who can both modulate the brakes without ABS perfectly and at the same time concentrate on steering ABS still wins, because 99 times out of 100 it will stop in shorter distance and leaves more mental capacity for steering. That is before even discussing how ABS can control individual wheels etc. So in the end this means beating ABS is pure luck and probability is same like winning lottery.
The main advantage with ABS is that you can immediately slam on maximum braking and without it all you can do is take a best guess at what max is and then continue adding/feathering in brakes until it squeals. Please test this with older vehicles on both wet and dry pavement as well as on dirt/gravel roads with both a pro and a normal driver and with "non-high-performance sports cars". I Suggest that one should be a 2001 Chevy S-10 pickup: because I have one and I'm pretty sure that it's ABS is junk: when I tested it, "I was not impressed"! Another point though that's in favor of ABS is ""how much practice do normal drivers get" at maximum braking before "it's a mandatory action"? The answer is pretty much "none"!
Hes a professional racing driver. But he is no Nico Rosberg who beat the 7 time world champion Lewis Hamilton in equal machinery in 2016.
You need a better professional racing driver to beat ABS
Of course you can out brake ABS. 🥴🥴🥴
It's called progressive braking!
You do not just slam the brakes to the floor!
This guy can't drive!
So if you train yourself to do this with your car, and you get exceptionally good at it. You are almost comparable to abs-braking. Unless it's a super stressful situation where you forget all you learned.
An old timer said that modern cars with techonology is rubbish, but even he admitted that ABS, traction control and airbags were a life saver. The rest is just uneccessary trinkets.
Even so, if you drive very old cars it is worthwhile learning how to brake properly just to increase your odds of surviving.
Not all ABS are created equal. Usually, European cars' programing is the best with Japan coming in next and then the americans are usually just cheap like ford which prolong the lock which sometimes stops faster but balds the tire
There is something wrong with the setup because ABS increases braking distances, there are other tests on TH-cam to prove it, but really it is just common sense, ABS is RELEASING the brakes!
Speed is the issue here. A human is better ad judging brake power, can keep the brake at 'near slipping' position. In theorie a human should be able to break better than a computer. An ABS system will always cause slip, whereas a human under the same conditions might not.
However, a computer has the advantage of speed and repeatability. Given enoug speed to do lots of cycles (measure, analyse, react), the computer will still beat a human.
The only conditions I’ve beaten the ABS on my Saab 93 is snow, been driving in Canada for 35 years. 9 times of out of 10 keep my ABS on. Traction control at high speed yes, but so many fucking times trying to get up a hill in snow I did better with it off . I am no driving god.
Schumacher (Michael) was actually driving way better without ABS and traction control than with it - both apparently were making him drive way worse 😂😂😂😂😂
The driver does not have the same access to the braking system as the ABS unit has. So even if a human was faster and better than a computer, they simply wouldnt be able to make use of it. Its about the same as with traction control or ESP. The driver does not have the hardware to tune the amount of torque going to each driven wheel individually, he only has 1 throttle and 1 brake and maybe 1 clutch pedal.
You relatively often hear people say that racecars dont really have any electronic driver aides, so its just a skill question. No. (Some) Racecars dont have ABS because theyve got absurd amounts of grip. Plus, the drivers are constantly working at the limit of their vehicles, the last thing they want to happen is for the electronics to suddenly cut power or apply the brakes on a wheel mid corner.
"Just think what it's like driving on ice" 🤔🤔.
Unfortunately I have need had this pleasure. I live in a country, where if we get snow or ice deep enough to leave the tread pattern of the soul of your shoe, the police and highway agencies close all the roads. And we have a paid day off! Got myself a 4wd car ready for the snow, it snowed and yup they closed all the roads. So I've never actually been able to drive in snow 😥😥😣
Yes. Otherwise they wouldn't try to avoid using ABS in racing leagues. Humans regularly beat ABS. ABS requires tireslip. Which extends braking distance. ABS isn't made to beat ALL humans. Its made to beat your average moron who presses down the pedals as hard as they can causing 4 wheel tire sleep for the entire braking duration.
IIMHO some cars have cheap ABS that cannot modulate individual wheels I had an Astra like that, very scary on an icy hill, I couldn't care less that an individual rear wheel was losing grip but the brakes appeared to release on every wheel. Other cars that could modulate individual wheels were far better.
Now try this on gravel or snow. My 95 Cherokee will blow modern vehicles away stopping in the snow it's pathetic. Cars pull up to stop lights so slow because they know they're one false away move from skating through the intersection sideways. I will never have ABS on any car I own unless it's shared with someone else.
That was a great test and actually amazing how much technology can aid in making vehicles safter. Thought pros might beat the ABS during braking when I saw the title and was curious, turns out they don't.
Why would a professional driver ever be able to beat a system that individually controls the breaking on each tire 15 times a second...
@@mica410 ABS is usually tuned to attain a specific slip ratio on the tyres which is determined for the stock tyres usually; but this value changes as the tyre wears. Turns our ABS wins still.