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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ย. 2024
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Modern motorcycles are switching to fuel injection, but why? It's not the reasons we think, and that makes us reconsider a carburetor in our future.
Ethanol Fuel Stabilizer: frt9.co/hmiy1x
Carburetor Jet Kit: frt9.co/uhxzfp
Electronic Fuel Injection Tuning: frt9.co/581sr3
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Directed and Edited by Luke McAdam
You forgot the most important bit. Carb makes me feel like a pro mechanic when I clean it and the bike starts lol.
Friends also think am pro mechanic
Or to tell your car friends that you still have a carb in 2021
I'm too terrified to do it
I like having a bike (with EFI) that seems to always just work no matter what. Mechanics sit at home and get dirty, while I get to ride.
@@fuwafuwarowatari I respect your opinion, sir
After all these years of trying to grasp carb technology it turns out I didn’t need a smarter brain, I needed a better teacher. Thanks Fortnine, we love you dearly
As much as I love this video, check out Smarter every day carburetor as well!
Part of me always wonders if the oil companies wanted fuel injection. Because you can't get 80mpg with fuel injectors. But apparently a lot of people have made 80mpg carburetors. There was a whole episode about this on "Why Files" recently about patented carburetors. Modern fuel injection has kept cars getting the same gas mileage since 1983, because you can't really improve the atomization of an injector. Injectors only have one main advantage, and that is, the cold start atomization is far superior.
@@starseeddeluxeand in airplanes, fuel injectors can do below zero G maneuvers and carbs can’t
funny how that works, right?
This guy could make learning anything fun, but he chose a topic that's already fun and made it more fun
Who are those 1/10 weirdos
@@Toro_Da_Corsaum. What?
The children in the end beg to differ!
I find carburettors amazing. If you take the time to tune the set up, they just do so well across a whole range of conditions. As for the fuel clogging up after a few weeks, I just drain the bowls if the bike is going to be parked up for any length of time. If longer, just add some fresh fuel to the tank and mix it in before turning the fuel tap back on. Give me carbs any day!
Do you think adding a Carburettor Cleaner every once in a while will delay the clogging problems? I started using them but I still haven’t any long time experience.
What also helps is getting ethanol free fuel.
@@standardheat-fs8159 mist definately!!
@@standardheat-fs8159
There's also fuel stabilizers, water removers, or just good old fashioned methanol that will do the trick.
It may be an over simplification, but just think of the things you do to winterize a lawnmower, or prepare a snowblower for summer storage.
I just use non ethanol :)
My Air Force carb training was a 2 hour class with test at the end....you condensed that carb course into a minute or two, without losing any content...53 years since I took that course.
dude airplane carbs are super important, wow didnt even think about those mechanics
Two hours for a carb?? We spent a full week just learning to solder! That was my Air Force 30 years ago. Maybe we were dumber than the previous generation of Airmen...
@@ananda_miaoyin you learned to solder in the airforce?
@@nobeltnium Yes. I was an electronics dude so they sent us to soldering school as part of advanced training.
@@ananda_miaoyin Oh, I though you were a pilot or a flight mechanic or something. I never knew that there's so much more branch in the airforce!
Tip: for carburetors, when done riding if bike is not going to be ridden for a few days just shut off the fuel and let the bike idle until the carb is dry/stalls. Then there is no ethanaol fuel in the jets to clog things up.
Strangely a lot of newer bikes don't have a fuel shut off. I wonder why?
I am referring to carb bikes.
@@user-lx6bl2wd8g Newer bikes use the vacuum from the engine to turn on the fuel. Other wise it's off. The prime setting is a True on setting.
I was taught to always switch it off, that way you don't forget.
except the main jet is always 'lower' in the fuel than the pilot. so the main jet is still submerged but the pilot is dry. only way to actually drain it is to.. drain it at the bowl drain.
@@rooskie it also makes the engine run very lean for a few moments
Those kids deserve credit for either great acting or for dealing with your technical gibberish.
Don't get me wrong, I love that gibberish.
I speak gibberish. It’s like a second language to me.
That girl's side-eye/eye roll is perfect.
I probably would have gotten it at that age. Maybe...
the subtleties in these productions are incredible. the traffic "honk" when cutting to the car scenes, acting as a perfect intro for the speaker. he even acknowledges them with his verbal cadence. what a privilege to watch.
I've been watching Ryan F9 since I was in 8th grade. I graduated just last year and finally got my lisence and bought my first motorcycle. FortNine really helped me learn the ins and outs of riding before I even got on a bike. Thanks guys.
congratulations man!
That's awesome man! Which bike btw if you don't mind 😁
@@idlanariffinfareed6900 Thanks. man.
@@elemental9039 An Indian Scout
@@stereowave_yt That's a great bike, Congrats!
Is anybody else interested in a video, where Ryan simply shows his bikes, their "stories" and what he changed about them?
He does go over the changes on the Harley a least a little in one or two.
Cool idea! Though I'm oddly private about my personal bikes. Not sure why, but it would feel like dragging family members in front of the camera. ~RF9
@@FortNine Maybe you could ask them for permission first?
@@FortNine Hah! your bikes hate you for not showing them off
@@FortNine "it would feel like dragging family members in front of the camera" Like those adorable trick or treaters? Kudos to both of 'em.
I am completely dumbfounded by the brilliance of this video! Finally a clear, concise, and enormously entertaining explanation of fuel systems for the layman with the bonus of learning the differences between car and motorcycle applications. Unraveling the mystery of fuel injection mapping was particularly interesting. And tailoring it all to the Halloween theme was nothing less than creative genius.
Well..... as a veteran mechanic of 25 years I can assure you it was a pretty basic attempt to explain the difference. He makes some good points, but is dead wrong on others. Ethanol fuel alone WILL NOT “gum up” in just a few weeks. Buying low quality fuels and poor storage habits of the bike WILL cause issues. People (and lower quality mechanics) are always quick to blame ethanol when the problem is in fact not the fuels fault. The fact that motorcycles use what we call a “speed density” system is really pretty irrelevant to well, anything. The automotive world used the same system for around 10 years before going to multi port injection with the ability to more precisely match the fuel/air ratio. This was done for.... emissions. Nothing else. Motorcycles simply don’t need all the other garbage because they are small enough to be able to pass emission standards without them. This is also why you can still find carbureted bikes. (Last knew there still are anyway.) Once again, I watched a video by someone with a marginal understanding of mechanics, and even less understanding of the why and how things are built the way they are.
Ryan, stop, you're embarrassing yourself. (Jk)
Cycle.. this video is so technically inaccurate I am completely dumbfounded. No wonder the world is heading into the downward spiral. We have given a loud voice to the uneducated, and allow them to educate others..
@@jdbrepair right on.
@@deniskefallinos39 exactly, im baffled by the amount of people praising the video, and "how they NOW understand" and all kinds of praises, the video is not bad, but its far from accurate.
Man that shot in the end of the kids walking away was awesome..........symbolic!
I've used to have an inline 4 with carbs (Suzuki RF600). I've mastered the cleaning, rebuilding, setting (syncronisation, and setting the pilot jets correctly(!)) the carbs during the time I've owned the bike. And also the religios way to drain the fuel from fuel bowls before the winter break... There was also a starting procedure, how much choke you need in the current temperature/humidity/engine temp from previous running. It was fun, like the bike had habits :D
I've switched to a fuel injected Honda VFR800 VTEC. You just start it in every possible environmental condition and it just runs. Always with the same rpm, and always sounds the exactly same, without any hesitation. Much more simple, much much more reliable, and also a little bit boring to be honest.
Just fill it up with (euro) 100 gas and leave there for the winter, starts up instantly at spring lol. I love modern technology but missing the romantic side of old style things. :D I'm also not missing the struggle to maintain the carbs at the same time
Yeah I have a really early fuel injected bike with one of the worst fuel maps ever concocted by man. Yet it starts and runs EVERY TIME in sun, rain or snow. Yes, I have ridden it in snow. The same can't be said for my 1st bike which was carbed.
Winter break? What's that? Like, you let your bike rest and you grab your second bike? 😁
It gets even worse with 2 stroke boat engines. Leave it idle for a few weeks...eesh. I've had 5 of the things. My current boat has a 4 stroke, with fuel injection.
I would never have a 4 carburetor bike lol. But don't worry, as bikes get old they start to need maintenance
@@moteroargentino7944 lol he must live in the middle of the pole
Yep. Another masterpiece from F9. Well done Ryan and team!
F9 videos are such a nice surprise to see in the middle of a mundane weekend.
this guy is great and he's only going to get better.
Simply superb as usual!
One of my favorite lines from Click and Clack, the Magliozzi brothers, was that if you rebuild a carburator enough times, you will wind up with enough left-over parts you couldn't figure out where they went to build a complete new carburetor.
Steve's First Law: Each time you repair something, you may omit a part during reassembly and it will work perfectly fine.
Steves Second Law: If you repair something often enough, omitting a part each time, soon it will operate perfectly fine with no parts at all.
This is how carburetors reproduce. The first one was found, not manufactured, under mysterious circumstances.
I do miss Click & Clack
I wonder what the overlap is between Fortnine viewers and car talk listeners. Can't be many of us.
@@tannerhawes6890 Add one to the list.
When I used to race two stroke minimoto, it gave me an appreciation for two-strokes and carbs, as I learned to work on both. The problem was when you spent Saturday learning the track and setting up your gears and and carb to be optimized for the track and current conditions, only to have a massive weather change over night making your carb setup sub-optimal on race day.
Yeah...these smug smartass videos are rarely accurate. He also doesn't mention that carbs still suck fuel on throttle off. Also, they need to be balanced on multicylinder motors.
FI is a perfect tune, every day, every time, every few seconds.
If you think Carbs are simple, try jetting them with a Turbo.
My first thought when he mentioned carburetors taking advantage of "relatively low pressure" airflow was "wait, how do carburetors handle forced induction?"
I take it by your comment that it's a bit tricky.
No carburetors are simple, installing turbos is a nightmare. But as my uncle once told me anything that's really simple and easy to get, will probably give you an STD
@@bluebeard6189 so what exactly is your point?
@@CS_Mango if you try to install a turbo kit on a carbureted motorcycle, you're getting for a nightmare.
@@bluebeard6189 not the ideal way to do it, but instead of putting boosted air into your carburator, you could mount your turbo in a way that it's sucking from your carb. Downside is that you can't use an intercooler then
Well, actually for me, an old guy who is 15 with 50 years of experience, after having worked on both carbs and fuel injection on both autos and motorcycles, they both work, and as long as you use the fuel regularly out of the tank, they stay relatively clean. But like you said, with ethanol fuel, water can mix with the fuel since alcohol absorbs water, and you get goo, which can plug up both systems, not to mention crystalizing the fuel lines. So it's the fuel thats the issue, not the delivery system. Out in the field or on the trail, and with the correct tools, I can and have repaired a carburetor and finished my ride for the day. But with a malfunctioning fuel injection system, I can't even leave the garage. So for me, I'll keep the block of aluminum with simple holes drilled in it. I can poke guitar strings thru the holes, clear it, and enjoy moto therapy for the rest of the day.
Spoken like a real man. Let me ask. How much hair is on your chest... and will you adopt me?
@@kiaadams104 Hope you like a big fambly 🙂
That is applicable for the simple carbs on the simple engines. In my case it was a japanese v4 (vmx1200) with rather unhandy intake design and somewhat sophisticated carbs, that led me to building my own efi system. On the other hand, on a single cylinder engine I would definetly install a carb - it will be much more easy to repair out in the field.
"who is 15 with 50 years of experience" I'm stealing this, thank you.
@@CmogVT Me, except now I'm aging..... 15 wit 51 years of experience.
My first four bikes were carbureted. My current bike is 20 years old and fuel injected. It's been 20 years since I've had to clean a carburetor before I could ride. I'll stick with a fuel injected.
Please put out more videos!
Agreed. I remember longing for the day i could pull my bike out for spring and just, ride it?
I hate when carbs start leaking gas all over my floor
Is it a VFR?
I also like how I can navigate the thousands of feet of elevation changes where I live without worrying about the bike running inconveniently rich or lean.
Plus, even if we assume what-sounds-kinda-close-to-a-conspiracy-theory is the real reason for the change to injectors, that still doesn't magically make fuel ethanol-free again. (In my experience it's been inconvenient-to-impossible to find pumps with ethanol-free fuel, especially for 87 octane.)(And I look; I'm a fuel efficiency nerd with my cars, and ethanol has 33% less energy per gallon, so even 10% will make a notable drop in fuel economy.)
I am on my 22nd two wheeled motorised vehicle in 55 years and my latest one is fuel injection. Every time I start it I am infuriated by the way that it runs perfectly and never needs adjusting! Also, I clean my machines once a year if they need it or not, so what else have I got to do other than the ride the bastard?
I absolutely LOVE your videos! That being said...
I've broken down with fuel injection, and I've broken down with carburetors. I'd much MUCH rather break down with a carburetor.
Also, carbs absolutely ARE simple when you understand them.
The greatest thing about carburetors is the ability to take advantage of the stupid. I can’t count how many old motorcycles and watercraft I have purchased at ridiculously low prices, or even had given to me, because the owner rode it for the summer then just parked it for the winter and, surprise, it won’t start the next season. All his clueless friends did the same thing so the dealership is full and taking months to get to it, so he sells it to me for pocket change. I clean the carb and wave to the former owner as I ride past. Fuel injection threatens to put an end to my little scheme. I hate so called “progress”. I might add that I have an 81 year old car that runs perfectly, no fuel injection, no computers, so little wiring there’s not even a fuse panel. I wonder how many 2021 vehicles will still be operational in 81 years, or even able to be restored, because of all this progress and advanced technology.
Fantastic point. The last bike I flipped was a 3k profit and all it needed was a 15 minute carb clean. ~RF9
What he said, is gold! 👍👍👍
Yeah but can you me pass my datsun pickup in in CA?
I finally got all my 4 carbs (one for each cylinder) tuned and synced perfectly. Took a few years to master setting float height, air/fuel mix, synchronizing with a manometer, jet sizes, needle height and cleaning/rebuild. An interesting experience to say the least. The most valuable lesson I have to share is a JIS screw driver is your friend.
Japanese industry standard for those who dont know. Different to a phillips.
I agree. Worked and swore at many of my carbs when tinkering but they give an enormous pleasure when you get things right and that knowledge is worth gold.
The number of carbs that come through my shop that have stripped screws from someone using a philips is staggering.
Specifically Vessel Impacta drivers IMO. My go-to's for literally everything. They saved me so much trouble taking apart an old 1975 Yamaha after my regular fat stubby impact driver shattered on me lol.
I have a 2005 Bandit 650, which I bought in about 2011, and I have never touched the carbs, other than when I bought it the carbs seemed way too lean, and I got a mechanic to do something to them to make them run a little richer.
On the cons of EFI, if you're worried about the "accuracy" of the fuel mapping table, you could search and send the bike to a qualified tuner who can either 1) reflash the stock ECU according to your bike or 2) get aftermarket ECU and tune it, which also would make it easier if you want to use different air filter & exhaust in the future. Also can be fitted with multiple maps depending on your usage (daily ride, track day, drag?). Don't mind spending more money? Get a wideband O2 sensor and aftermarket ECU that can utilize it, and you can pretty much fit any kind of modification to your bike. Plus with certain ECU, like Tuneboss or Aracer you can install app on your phone to get live data logging, and see all the sensor readings. Which make it easier to troubleshoot if your bike are having problem on the side of the road.
I used and dabble a lot with both of them. I worked at a workshop involving heavily modifying the bikes (which isn't really usual for most riders), and in my experience EFIs are far more easier to manage. If we replace the head and block cylinder + piston to be bigger, fit a different camshaft profile, bigger valves, bigger exhaust pipe, and if we did it on an EFI bike, I would just send the bike for dyno tuning when we're done (maybe fit a bigger injector or throttle body if needed, usually the tuner can tell). On carb bikes on the other hand, we would have a massive headache for the next few days trying to match the carb sizes, and then have to match the main and pilot jets trying to make the bike run happily at all RPM range. But then again, at the end of the day it's much more satisfying to see when the carb bike finally run like a champ.
On stock bikes, that would depends on the owner. Some people like tinkering and servicing the carb, and consider it as routine. Some just like to press on the start switch and ride, and don't want the hassle of having to service the bike when it won't start. Some people, like me, want to utilize the "extra" features that EFI bikes can provide. Choose whichever you prefer. It's your bike and you're the one riding it.
Thanks for that bit of tech explanation.
Thank you for ending with ride your own ride. A lot of people judge others for there choices. Ride it how you like it
Unfortunately for many of the entry level (cheap bikes) that now also comes with EFI , there's no ECU flash readily available , at least not for cheap. Guess we just have to live with it.
I also ran a big displacement kit to raise my single 149cc to 180.1, completed with cam, valve, stronger rod, bigger injector, exhaust, full remap, you name it.
23 horses whip my bike like a 2 stroke thanks to proper ECU tune, and my shop can tune either a steady map or "sporty" one (drag, but high chance of wheelies). All done in a day, not 2 weeks with a carb.
Or, buy a Harley where every stock ECU is tunable and you can buy a little tuner that will do the job of fine-tuning for you over an hour-long ride.
Why all ECUs on all vehicles are not provided with such at least as an accessory is beyond me.
Excellent as usual - and funny too. One point not mentioned though is reliability. A carb is essential a clever passive system. As long as all seals are OK, passages are clean, adjustments are made and stable, it will work. EFI will also work as long as all electronics / sensors do - which we know to be a potentially tricky business....
EFI proved to be much more reliable than carbs since a very long time - and way before it was put in any 2 wheeler!
Most of the sensors can be out of tolerance and the engine still running. You won’t ever have a blocked or stuck injector unless it stayed stopped for years, fpr are easy to change & costs 30€, joints are easy to change most of the time…
Bonus you have huge margins on mapping values, with the computer correcting itself if way too lean or rich with a very wide band of autocorrect, which prevents you holing the pistons unless you really go wild on mapping.
Carb jets gets blocked every once in a while, which can immediately lead to catastrophic engine failure without electronic shutting it down or restraining its capabilities. Also carbs have fragile membranes, needs syncs if multiples, wings sometimes gets unadjusted themselves..
For small drivers it’s probably okay, but we just couldn’t drive 100.000+ km on a bike by all weathers and terrains in the 80’s and 90’s, the same way we’re doing with today bikes
You can brag about fool infection all you want. I have never in 58 years of riding had an engine failure from carb problems. In fact the only thing that happened to my Harley Superglide carb in 43 years was a plugged accelerator pump orifice but the bike still started and ran. No high tech guessing what is wrong with any of the carbureted bikes I have had in 250,000 miles. No hard to find obsolete parts problems as with fool infection. If need be, it is easier to substitute parts on old school bikes than try to find specific obsolete parts that will work on this new junk. The only note worthy thing on fool infection is that bigger car engines get great gas mileage but not so with small engines as in cycles. I'll take repairable transportation any day over this so called reliable b.s. fool infection crap and get home from a trip every time.
@@bottmar1 Harley.. Well that’s not exactly the kind of bike engines I’m speaking about, like not at all 😅 at all
@@bottmar1 Also I own some nice 2 strokes that’s obviously not injected and it’s awesome how it feels with big flatslides. I don’t say carbs are piece of shit, it’s just not as reliable as modern EFI (any bike system).
I also have a 4 stroke 750 that’s carbureted and it’s an awesome bike. But it needs much more attention to fuel system than my FI ones, they just never need any end of the story!
But it is very different to Harley’s, with all respect to your brand dude. Just a very different kind of engine to other bikes. No better no worse, I’m not into these stupid wars except after a beer lol
@@bottmar1 I actually bought a small screen tool that costs a few hundred dollars, it works with every DME EFI bikes (all the ones that don’t have detachable memory to flash like old Bosch car systems or very early injected bikes from late 90’s), is super easy to use, and thankfully it is just a great tool that gives you a clear access on superb amounts of data, without actually replacing any physical maintenance operations.
As I hate high tech, and kinda struggle a bit on computers, you really could tell how easy those systems are to use considering how it went with me. It took a few hours to really get accustomed to interface, but what is it for years of usage ?
My guy, this was an amazing explanation! I, for one, am quite the car geek and I found myself working for a motorcycle company in the spares department... Completely unnecessary information, BUT, I found myself to be so ingrossed in this video as it answered every thought I had after you laid out the facts! Absolutely enjoyed this video! Keep doing what you do man! We Love It!
I liked the video, but I have to say that this time you got it partially wrong. You are right only if you consider old generation efi.
It's been years since manufacturera started putting lambda sensors in bikes. It allows for continously correcting the fuel map in different air conditions.
An example? the efi in a 2003 sv650 works as you described, but since 2007 the sv650 has a lambda sensor!
Also an efi allows you to do much more than just getting the optimal stoichiometric ratio, things that a simple carburetor can't do, like changing the ignition/injection timing when opening/closing the throttle in different ways, thus allowing different behaviors if you accelerate/decelerate fast or slow, and much more!
Electronic ignition was a thing even before EFI.
@@cheetah694 I know! I meant the combined tuning of ignition and injection yelds better results. I'm sorry I didn't explain myself clearly.
You are spot on here. I work on automotive EFI for a living, went through the carb-->EFI transition in the late 80s and the biggest difference he missed in this video is pressurized atomization. Most carb systems are 4-6 psi, and the fuel droplets are way bigger and don’t burn nearly as well. After TBI systems went away (9-16 psi) the modern Port fuel systems are 35-70 psi, and (assuming the injector nozzle is clean) the fuel will come out much more atomized and lights up way easier. That alone is the compelling reason everyone went to EFI. They run better in almost all conditions and are much cleaner at the tailpipe, with much lower CO and HC emissions left over after combustion.
@@robertaugustine5350 Thank you. "It was just a big conspiracy in order to enable ethanol fuel additives" seems... uncharacteristically over-simplified for this channel.
More precise/efficient fuel metering is one of the big reasons I chose fuel injection for my bike, and will for any future bike. (Also I live in the Rocky Mountains and lots of the trails I love going on traverse thousands of feet of elevation; plus the temps can swing widely too.)
I was looking for this comment, the first time F9 got it wrong. I really like the character of a carburated bike, the mechanics and physics behind it, however any but the crudest EFIs are more precise than a carb. And fueling is more complex than always striving for the same ratio.
I find it surprising and uncharacteristic for F9 to come forward with an uninformed "old is better" and ethanol conspiracy theories.
This is without a doubt the clearest explanation of a carb and how it works I've ever seen or heard. Thank you.
Now we just have to figure out what the other 50 microscopic holes, screws and mini pipes in them do.
Just got my first injected bike, and so far love it. I ride regularly from 4500 ft to 10000 ft, and I get good power delivery regardless of altitude.
I surprised he did not mention altitude compensation. That was the bane of carbs back in the day.
Yes injection keeps mixture correct but you still get drop in horsepower due to less dense air
I’ve went my whole life confused about how Carbs and Fuel Injection worked due to intimidating and hard to understand explanations. Thanks Ryan for the much needed clarification in an entertaining and understandable way!!
Never thought I'd be comparing those two ever again but F9 comes along and reminds what pulling a Knob was like.
EFI for me thanks 😄
Those kids at the end said it all without saying a word...
"we don't care, just give us something that is fun to enjoy"
Sir, you and your crew are complete geniuses. Well done to all involved.
drugs will do that
@@gewizz2 ...thanks...you have completely taken the topic completely of subject and injected something totally useless.
Please try again to be funny.
Or better yet...remember this quote...
"It is better to be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt"
@@heathb4319 a wise man once said, its not smart to be a smart tw@t
Best motorcycle channel bar none.
EFI is only an improvement in that you don't have to fiddle with fuel delivery, whether it be local weather, or altitude changes on a cross-country trip. Motorcycles have averaged 40mpg for at least as many years, and everyone usually runs to lean, or rich, same as the old carb days. It's rare to find anyone that takes the time to properly tune their motor.
I feel like as much of a pain as Vacuum slide carbs are, they probably handled some of the altitude air density mixture changes on the fly because less dense air outside means the slide doesn't open as far.
I enjoy carbs when they're working, but I can't really tune them that well myself.
Wholly depends on displacement. Current bike does 40MPG or so, old bike got about 60 at 650cc, first bike was a 125cc and did 300+ miles on a two gallon tank.
CV carbs help with self tuning aspect but are typically sluggish in response compared to a slide style carb
how are motorcycles getting such lousy gas mileage? Noob here but... how? I mean sport bikes ok i guess but are you telling me dual sport, adventure, commuter, whatever are only getting 40mpg? At 1/10th the weight or less of most cars? i get that you are less aerodynamic and smaller engine maybe less efficient, but...
@@zacharyb2723 My bike, with a 1L engine, gets about 40-45MPG. My car, with a 1L engine and a fat turbo, gets 43-43MPG
My bike makes 150HP, the car makes 125.
The bike, however, has a redline twice what the car does, and spends more time accelerating instead of cruising at a steady speed.
Smaller engines, like on a 125cc bike, are insanely efficient. You can get 200+MPG out of one, if you don't mind not being able to go above 70MPH, being blown around like a leaf in the wind, and having tiny skinny tyres with no grip.
Hey Ryan, we haven't had a "motorcycle mods/accessories" video in a few years. With Christmas coming up, any chance we can get an updated list of your favourite biker gifts/gadgets? (whether bought by others, or ingeniously bought FOR others knowing they'll just give it to you because they don't want it)?
I love this - particularly a video focusing on cheap-ish gadgets and gear that a normie could buy for their motorcyclist friend/partner/child/sugar momma/etc.
He's too busy making these dumb videos, just to be a contrarian. Just like the one about leaning that got partially busted. Yes everyone knows motorcycle Jet Carbs are different than old barrel car carbs. He's also wrong telling you motorcycles fuel injection can't adjust itself. I'm sure some bikes can't, but a lot can.
@@Damitsall You sound really touched by someone telling you that dragging knee in every corner is not the best way to turn, haha!
@@TheGrundigg That's partially busted, yea when your taking your average corner on the street, yea there's no need to lean or use knee. If your at the track or carving a nice road and you don't lean, then have fun eating concrete.
@@Damitsall So you didn't watch the whole video it seems, he speaks about the uses of leaning in the end. Also please stop confusing "your" with "you're"...
This was a great video. Good job of explaining how things work.
On newer cars I have to say the fuel injection is so much better. It calculates just the right mixture for start up and for driving. Cars now days start so fast you might not know your battery is on its last leg until it won't crank the engine. That happened to me. I started up at home, drove to a town 20 miles away and visited a store. When I tried to leave the engine barely turned over and then, NOTHING. Thankfully I was at the store where I ALWAYS get my batteries. I pulled the battery out and saw it was 8 years old with a 7 year warranty. Guess I got my money's worth!
My 2000 Harley with carb never had a fuel problem. But, I always looked for alcohol free gas and I shut the petcock off as I roll in the driveway. By the time the garage door is at the top the engine is almost out of fuel.
But for winter storage, I add twice the recommended amount of Sta-bil and make certain that reaches the carb before I turn off the ignition. I don't run the carb dry for the winter but as I mentioned it is soaking in the Sta-bil fuel stabilizer.
That carb has never been off the engine for servicing. It is now 21 years old and has 85,000 miles on it.
Twice a year, I run one half can of sea foam through the gas tank.
Ayo...why do you have my name???
@@Mike_B. Evidently YT doesn't scan for similar user names. I've been on YT for about 12 years
My last name starts with BEN....
What is Sea foam?
@@codyhatch4607 Well, they don't have catalytic convertors so that is part of it.
Another issue is they often burn premium fuel and may have the carb a bit too rich to keep the engine running cool.
@@codyhatch4607 They say all that????
I'm 61 now but remember dismantling my motorcycle carburettor and doing the usual repairs all from the manual that came with the bike. How the great have fallen. Admittedly we're dealing with far more complex modern machinery but your average dual sport or single cylinder commuter isn't so. I was in my teenage years working on these motor bikes so I'm guessing it's assumed that we're no longer useful. Great luminary this fella! Thanks for an illuminating explanation!
Ding ding ding, the old manuals were real manuals that could let anyone nimrod take the thing apart down to the frame and put it all back together
@@coreygolpheneee damn true, I'm having a 1991 gn250 and the manual literally tell me how to take it apart and fix shits, then there's my modern scooter with a manual on how to press the key fob and manufacture legal disclaim :), the fixing manual is only sold to mechanics
I was an electrician, so i never really trusted fuel injectors... but then i started to learn mechanical engineering... now i doesn't trust carbs either...
I would love to find a friend with knowledge of carbs 😂
Absolutely love your channel bro. I'm 52 years old been riding most of my adult life yet my knowledge on the subject has easily doubled due to watching your videos. I highly recommend your channel to all my friends who ride .please keep them coming and keep the rubber side down
"Hit the gas" is still accurate because "gas" has another meaning beyond gasoline...🙃
Touché ~RF9
"Americans call a liquid gas" -Jeremy Clarkson
@@Tuukkis oline
Are you saying that if you were to use the same fuel that they did in 1970, that you would rarely need a carb job? I have just fixed up an old carb bike with 4 cylinders and it's been put away for the winter. I will die if I need to do it again. 1989 Kawasaki's were not built to be home mechanic friendly
Also absolutely love the video!
Run non ethanol fuel all the time in your carbed motorcycle and add marine stabilizer in the winter when you store the bike.
The production quality on this is amazing for just a video explaining carbs vs fuel injectors on motorcycles.
Thanks for explaining the theory of fuel map logic, the difference between having carburetors and fuel injection, and why motorcycle carburetors gum up. I worked in the IT industry for almost 40 years. I did everything from designing and writing apps to fixing hardware. In my many years of testing apps I have found one constant. Programs contain logic problems, even after rigorous testing. Ever have your check engine light turn on and the mechanic can't find the problem, or it is misdiagnosed? Of course you have. Don't assume that that computer is working perfectly, because it is not. In the IT industry the saying goes" Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME". Rely on your skills more than the vehicle.
my uncle, who worked in the IT field since computer were bigger than cars, had a sign on his wall "To err is human, but to really screw things up you need a computer" always thought it was funny..... and true :-)
My versys wouldn't start one day. The starter would spin it up, but the FI Light would just flash; This panicked me as I tried a few more times. I then turned the bike off and on again. It started first time.
Most vehicle problems aren't necessarily a logic problem within the code, but instead it's down to faulty transducers 99% of the time. The programming behind a car's computer is relatively simple leaving a small envelope for error.
This is not IT. This is mechatronics. The reason why IT has such problems is that the systems are incredibly complex and difficult to test thoroughly. Not to mention crappy programming, pressure to add features instead of making the product robust, pushing out software prematurely and using the users as beta-testers... Code reuse means that almost any program relies on tons of libraries, which can introduce their own errors or quirks. I've had cases where programmers have relied on behaviour that was undefined in the API, and their software breaking when the behaviour they expected suddenly changed. It's a mess. When you work in IT, rather than wonder why something doesn't work, you wonder how the hell ANYTHING works at all.
This kind of electronics is a wholly different beast. You have simple microcontrollers and firmware you control completely. The algorithm is simple - open this valve for so long depending on a function of Input A, B, and C. You can test the crap out of that with every possible and impossible (in case of a failure) variation of input. You are under no pressure to update anything because to supply firmware for your engine, you're only competing with yourself (and some chip tuners whom you can just ignore). You have a solid product that has been developed and tested for years or decades on millions of products, and only non-critical maps which are changing according to different engine.
While I don't trust any server or software or network at work, I have no issues whatsoever trusting EFI, ECU, ABS and other automotive electronics (except for user-facing interfaces, those are crap like any other IT stuff)
@@horrovac Thanks for the education.
I like carburetors because the more analog feel makes me feel more connected with the vehicle, and the lack of a computer results in instant throttle response. Now if only I could figure out how to tune them properly…
When you get defeated by a bike with computerized mechanisms, you would forget the old school.
@@JohnKickboxing Wait until the computer has a hiccup, or an electrical problem that messes up the computer on your bike. Rain has a way of doing that. In other words, if it has tits or wheels, you’re going to have a problem with it or her.
@@nico8587d 👌
@@nico8587d carbs have problems but you cannot disregard edit because a hypothetical problem vs a problem inherent to carbs of witch a more than efi
Fortunately, I had an option to chose between carburetor and FI. I went with carburetor coz I can at least disassemble it, clean it and put it to work again in a bad situation. With FI, it's expensive and you need a good mechanic and the spare parts to fix them. I will always prefer carburetor over FI as long as the option is available since FI needs more maintenance, hard to repair and is expensive.
I hope you never stop making videos bud. Everyone is better and better. Your editing skills, content, and witty delivery is top notch. You should be proud.
A few days ago, rain poured heavily and I borrowed a flat screw to remove water in my carb. I feel like a pro mechanic that day.
Jetting has become a lost art but as a young man I didn’t have the $ to run to the shop every time my bike needed work. I’m thankful for that now. Cool vid, thanks
Apart from all the positive promotion that went with fuel injection, I always understood that the prime (and not spoken about reason) for the wholesale change to F.I. was the catalytic converter. That carburettors, no matter how good couldn't prevent unburnt fuel going out the exhaust and poisoning the cat on overrun. Where as the fuel injector instantly goes no fuel on overrun thus no raw fuel out the exhaust. But then what would I know, I ride a Niken!
Cool bike!
You're a brave individual and I wish I was as wealthy and wise as you
_Reece rode it.
Apart from all the positive promotion that went with fuel injection, I always understood that the prime (and not spoken about reason) for the wholesale change to F.I. was the catalytic converter. That carburettors, no matter how good couldn't prevent unburnt fuel going out the exhaust and poisoning the cat on overrun. Where as the fuel injector instantly goes no fuel on overrun thus no raw fuel out the exhaust._
Yup - Fuel injectors are not about performance (WOT/carb = WOT/injector) but about reducing emissions. My 1200 Harley-Buell (carburated) has no emission controls - the long stroke burns fuel completely.
@@JT-gq8wv I wish long stroke motorbikes were a thing again.
@@jstn9914 lol - NO.
I'm just here to appreciate the amazing cinematography and storytelling 👏
👍🏻 👏🏻
I grew up with carburettors and had so many issues with them. But you just accepted it, did the work on them and carried on. But not having to spend an entire day pulling the bike apart to get the carbs out, sort them out, then put it all back again, tune and balance them is a big advantage. I've got an old classic I tinker with, but I'm thankful those days are gone.
So when efi fails you just have to take the tank apart to get to filter and injector.
@@woodsrider117 I have to do that to get to my carbs and the tank comes off in 5 minutes.
When I need to, I can have the 4 carbs from my 79 Suzuki GS550 on the bench with the float bowls off in less than half an hour. The last time I had to do that was over 9 months ago, and it has been in almost daily use since then.
I rode BSA 30 years just got into early airheads and would rather a carb I can strip at a gas station or under a highway light covered in bugs than a canbus injector BMW gone dark. LOL!
Another excellent video! I have eight carbs (8!) on my Vmax, and I have ridden from the coast of California, through Texas right through Denver up to South Dakota with zero noticeable changes in performance or fuel consumption. There's over 60000 maintenance free miles on those carbs. I don't think carburetors are nearly as finicky as people are led to believe. Just don't let them sit lol! As always, your mileage may vary.
Cheers!
Hey bud I’ve got an 85 vmax.
Very Curious on your set up what do you have going on
@@steveh7085 hi Steve! My bike is all stock except for the k&n air filter, and the sasy control module from australia. That seems to really make a difference, as you can control when the boost engages. If you can track one down, I highly recommend it!
Does carb consume a lot of fuel than injection?
@@kaptain2507 that's a good question, but I don't think there's any real discernible difference. My VMax will get anywhere from 30 to 50 miles per gallon depending on how much I twist the wrist LOL.
And my Dr.Z 400sm it's around 55 mpg. I'm not sure fuel injection on those bikes would have drastically different results.
Cheers!
I believe you mean 4 not 8.
Thanks for the tip, I'm lucky enough I have a ton of gas stations in my area that sell ethanol free fuel. It's more expensive but I'll definitely be putting that in my bike from now on.
When I was a teen there was the "Aztec oil company" gas station in Mesa, AZ that brought fuel over from NM. I got 168 octane fuel back then for $140/gal (regular was about .98¢). It ran fantastic and hot, and nothing ever got stuck.
Wise man 🤓
Fuck living in the USA, in Australia there’s only a few servos that sell ethanol fuel. All the major ones are ethanol free
We have a station around here that will often sell ethanol free premium but its entirely possible to stabilize or even remove the ethanol from gas. My '87 motorcycle shares a bed with an even older tractor ('50's) so its nice to have fuel around for both. I fabricated a fairly simple separator that allows me to mix a measured amount of water into a measured amount of fuel and then draw off gas while the ethanol/water concoction hangs out at the top. Your own results may vary so do your internet homework.
Yeah the only time I put ethanol in my bikes now is if I absolutely have to. I think my TDub has seen maybe one tank of regular fuel. I love having ethanol free options near me.
I played with my carbureted bike more than I played with myself. Does that make me the one out of 10 that didn't make Ryan's majority? Damn. Bring me an EFI bike then...
Yep.
My bike will start in the middle of winter at the touch of a button after sitting for a year.
I'll keep my EFI, thanks.
@@Maccaroney no joke, I just wheeled my 01 Kx500 out of the corner of the garage been sitting for two years with old fuel. Turn the gas on lean it over fuel passes out the overflow, prime the motor with a few slow cycling kicks then top dead center with kicker and one good kick, boom running . The ease of Fi has conditioned riders to never look back. That ol 500 has NEVER let me down or stranded. My 21 450 has already flamed out with engine light on on a few occasions (and yes it's tuned properly) I'll love the Fi when all is good, but Carb will always be the goto when it comes to reliability
@@pooch299 two strokes don't count. Lol
@@Maccaroney i have a carbureted 125cc, so reaaaaally small nozzles, i don't use fuel from my country (Brazil) because it is 88oct 27% ethanol, i rather cross the border and get the 0% ethanol 92oct for the same price!! In the winter it is a piece of shit to start when it gets below 5 Celsius unless i use it every day, other than that, the old choker does the job, even if it sits for 5 months
Oh, i must not forget, if it doesn't start, i just push it down a hill in 3rd gear and the engine sucks all the gunk on itself
Usually the information in these videos is pretty good but this one is almost completely wrong. Carburetors were always going to be fazed out for several reasons. Fuel injection is much more friendly to packaging constraints. The throttle body doesn't care how it's mounted but carburetors do. You can only mount a carburetor in certain positions. You can only go so big on a carburetor before it won't meter properly at lower throttle positions. That's why you usually don't see motorcycle carburetors above 41mm. The bigger the carburetor the less vacuum to draw the fuel in at lower throttle positions and that's one of the reasons why they put accelerator pumps on the bigger carbs. Fuel injection doesn't have that problem and it got to a point were the carburetor was limiting power. Also fuel injection is constantly making adjustments according to your weather conditions even on pre 02 sensor bikes. Yes it has a base map but it also has atmospheric maps. If you have a 02 sensor then it's making adjustments on the fly usually at the lower throttle positions. It will adjust the fuel trim based on emissions afr. Also direct injection in cars is the result of emission requirements not for performance. It allows for performance at extremely high emission standards. Overhead injectors work better for high rpms and that's why most sport bikes have two sets of injectors. One lower set for better part throttle response and overhead injectors for half to wide open throttle. Even some automobiles are using direct and port injection combinations. Also fuel injection was starting to be used in motorcycles way before ethanol was being used extensively. It wasn't till 2007 in united states it started to be used nationality and a few years later it was mandated. Most motorcycles had fuel injection by 2003 except for certain classes. Ethanol can mess up fuel injection too but it's easier to clean out fuel injection in some cases. Carburetors served their purpose just like points did but their time has passed. Fuel injection became a standard because of enhancements in engine technology and emission standards increasing. Also the fact that advancements in computer technology allowed the ECU to be small enough to fit on a motorcycle. That's why most of this video is misinformation.
U just explained Y fuel injection
sucks, it all plugs up some time,
and U go ahead and pay $100
dollars an hour to have some shop do your fuelinjunktion, and
I'll clean my carbs myself and not regulated buy government
and be rid'en as you wait a couple of weeks for a shop to
figure out what happened to the
COMPUTER for fuelinjuntion
has malfunctioned because a
something malfunctioned and U
won't be happy.
Nah. I had to drop the 30 gallon tank on my truck to replace the fuel pump--FI engine, of course. What a pain in the neck, and comparatively costly. That truck gets no better gas mileage than my older, same-sized carbureted truck and is far more complex.
A couple of hand tools and jets will fix most carbs, as long as you know what you're doing. No diagnostic digital thermisistor reverse micron proprietary software coding equipment required. Heck, when one of my FI cars goes on the fritz it's a bloody 100 dollar bill just to diagnose it, much less fix it.
FI doesn't give better power or mileage than a carb; the only advantage is emissions, but admittedly that's not nothing.
Where did you get this info btw, any sources u could link?
@@chrisiollich4890 From what you posted I can assume you haven't worked on any late model carbs. By the 90's motorcycle carburetors were being regulated by the EPA. That made them hell to tune if you did more than a exhaust system and air filter. The only reasons fixing a fuel injection bike would take two weeks would be the shop is backed up or they had to order a part. It would be the same deal with a carbureted bike. Fuel injection for the most part is super reliable but if you have a sensor that goes out you just pulled the code. It tells you what the problem is and you fix the problem. Most of the time it's clogged injectors from sitting up or the fuel pump. The later model carbs use a lot of plastic parts and the ethanol can mess up the parts up. Then you had downdraft carburetors that are always on the verge of flooding out because if the float needle doesn't seat perfectly it can hydrolock the cylinder while trying to start the bike. They usually are fed by a fuel pump too so it can just be a mess. Then you had the mikuni carbs from the late 80's to the 90's that would wear out the needle jet causing a extreme rich condition. It would make people think the carbs were flooding out. You also aren't going to clean carbs with out needing a carb rebuild kit or at least float bowl gaskets. Unless you don't mind fuel leaks. The ones with paper gaskets can be reused a few times but those were faded out by the 80's. Also you can't compare motorcycle fuel injection systems to automotive fuel injection like another user posted. It's two different systems that work on almost completely different principles. They tend to use cheaper parts on automobiles also vs what they use on motorcycles for the most part. Also if both the carburetors and fuel injection is tuned perfectly you will not see any difference in gas milage. That's not what determines mpg. The fuel injection should get the same mpg all year around vs a carburetor. Unless you jet your carbs for the weather conditions.
Hea cyclone U just wasted U'er time I've been tuning carbs for
along time U go ahead and pull
another shift at your keyboard
U right some more long comments to someone who
Cares U keyboard jockeys crack
me up so serious about stuff
that doesn't make much difference I work on carborated
bikes all the time and when I'm
done thay haul ASS your missing
the your point in the next 10 years it will all go electric.
I feel like this guy should be a director, as much as I love motorcycles this lad seems to have the right mind. Attracting peoples attention in a quite articulate way that pulls you to be intrigued and to listen more. Great vid
God your videos are soooo good I can’t even wait for the next one. Everything from the content to the scripting, filming, editing, sound effects just top notch!
In less than 8 min you helped me understand the basics of carb versus fuel injection … thank you
Carbs were also easier to tune for the shade-tree DIYer. All you needed was your butt on the seat as a dyno, a set of carb-sticks to sync them, some needles and jets to experiment with, then you were good to go. Anyone with a weekend of spare time could dial them in better than stock. Of course the only problem besides them needing attention whenever they sit for awhile, is that changes in temperature, humidity, or altitude dramatically effects a carburetor's state of tune, requiring adjusting them with each season if one rides year-round.
Thats still a lot
Until I learned the WinPV software from Dynojet and learned to utilize the Powervision and wideband 02 censors correctly, electronic fuel injection was one big frustrating mystery. Now that I understand fuel injection I love it.
Same engine in two of my bikes(Yamaha R6), one with carburettors, set up properly on a dyno, one with fuel injection, never been touched. The fuel injected bike absolutely blows the carburetted bike out of the water. It's smoother and more responsive on the road and the track. No messing with choke and totally reliable for the last 19 years! I'll never get a carburetted bike again.
I tell people they need to retune for their full exhaust and they say “no my O2 sensor will do that” 🤣 ok bubs
Ahh the weekend warriors lol
Don't help BMW are saying the same thing about their s1krr
I always found that funny. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since there is a more free flowing exhaust, doesn't that mean that the system ignores a significant amount of the air/fuel table, as it will only operate in that world, thus out of whack? That just screams long term problems to me. Less so if one wants to be F1 Frank on the freeway.
Honestly until this very moment, I wasn't aware motorcycles didn't work correctly.
@@CrashRacknShoot every time someone puts an after market system on their bike and ignores the tune? Within 2 years, if they last that long... Manifold, rings, carbon build up from too rich or too lean a mix all kinds of bad things happen
Ryan F9 has taught me more about motorcycles & components than I’d ever thought possible! Call me a weirdo but I love this nerd shyt! Keep ‘em coming sir
He does have good content on his channel, but take some of these latest videos with a grain of salt. Seems like at this point he's just making these videos just to be a contrarian. On this for instance, yes everyone knows jet carburetors are different than what old cars use. What's not true, is that he said fuel injected bikes can't actively modify the flow, when they can. Some bikes have all those sensors, it's becoming common. With that being said, FI is definitely better for most people. He didn't even talk about the maintenance on those carbs which is a real pain, I know because I have a bike with carbs and 1 that's FI.
@@Damitsall he did mention the maintenance. you just didn’t pay attention
I didn't know half of this. The only reason I will remember what I didn't is because of those teaching skills Ryan. Great video honest to God.
Having ridden since the 90s, I've had my fair share of carbed bikes. I worried when injectors started appearing - what if they went wrong? After all my carbs would go wrong regularly but I could fix them, but I could do nothing with injectors. That's still true, but the truth is I haven't needed to. They're an effing god send.
Been teaching my son's jetting,live in one of the highest towns in Canada, rich smaller jets, summer thin air, fall denser air it's a good lesson,rejetted the old xr and the cfr and they're shocked at the difference carburetor tuning makes.
The production of this show is just so insanely good. Man what a constant joy to watch!
Not too shabby - for a Snow Mexican
Had the same issue many complain about after a foot injury. Didn't ride the bike for a while. I used stabilizer, octane booster, B12, etc. It eventually works, but you have to ride through at least 20-30 miles of your engine feeling like it's gonna shake apart before it goes back to normal. I suppose the only way is to find refined gasoline with no ethanol, probably exists on the black market, at $50/gallon, but the health of my pristine 32-years old classic Honda 750 is priceless 😎
I pay about $4.50 a gallon for premium ethanol-free gas, and it's widely available where I live (southern high plains). I can leave it sit in my gas tank and carbs for a year, and the bike starts right up and runs fine.
@@Quantalume Good tip, Let's see what I can do in CA to find this motorcycle ambrosia, I don't care if it's $8/gal, my bike does 45 mpg on a bad day. Thanks!
Find a cropduster business that has planes which aren't turboprops. Runs straight up freaking good 👍
@MichaelGioan av gas bud. 108 octane and a great fuel ⛽️ for any type of vehicle. May want to add a teaspoon of marvel mystery oil or 2stroke oil per gallon for lubricant though 😊
"the fuel jet is precisely the width of your cojones."-killer line
2:40 well I’ll be. I had to Google that pronunciation. That’ll be; cohonas, in the Ozzie tongue
One thing he didn't touch on was throttle response difference from a carb to injection. From my experience I've always felt a major difference between the feel an engine with a carburetor vs that same engine with an injector. Always wanted to learn why that is because it is my primary reason for preferring EFI. But nevertheless an incredible video as always!
Good point! When you slam the throttle on a carbureted bike, the air flow increases much faster than the fuel flow, since fuel is denser than air and lags behind. This momentarily leans out the mixture and saps power. EFI bikes don't have this problem because fuel is pushed according to sensors rather than passively taken up with the intake of air. ~RF9
@@FortNine That makes sense. Now I know! Thanks for replying. :)
@@FortNine When you slam open the throttle the engine is still at idle speed, and the air speed is only ever as fast as the engine speed (piston speed).
As engine speed rises at wide open throttle so does air speed, but not any faster than the engine speed rise.
So being the air speed is still low due to the fact the piston speed has not yet risen when you slam it open, then that FI injected fuel isn't going anywhere faster than a carb could deliver it in to the intake stream, which is much faster than the speed your engine speed rises and thus the air speed in its intake from idle to revving, even in neutral.
Keep in mind that the fuel in the carb is sitting a mm or so from the throat in the jet well or other circuit, its the distance it has to get to the cylinder after that which is the problem.
What provides faster throttle response is just down to where the fuel enters the intake air stream and the cylinder, the carb is some distance from the intake valve where injectors are pointing directly at it.
My favorite setup was on my KZ900LTD. It had 4 carburetors one for each cylinder. Tuning it was an art. But once tuned it was poetry.
I've always had this thought about tuning a 2+ cly bikes with carburetors would be such a pain. But I respect those whose capable to do so !
I learned on a kz750, once I got it tuned nicely, it was able to do 1st gear wheelies 😂😂
So maybe every ad on Facebook marketplace isn’t misleading when they say doesn’t start, but runs amazing it just needs the carb cleaned. Even when there is a small tree growing out of the airbox.
40 years riding/wrenching and in the late 90s my experience with fuel injected bikes was unpleasant, i.e., flat spots scattered across rpm range (BMW GS), fuel pumps, Motronics, etc. I found that carbureted bikes generally ran better but required painstaking efforts when modifying for performance and helpful knowledge passed on by previous tinkerers. No bike should sit for 4 weeks during the riding season. That’s negligence 😉. Balancing the fuel/air equation was a flashback to chemistry classes. Another great video!
Maybe it's time to update your perspective, even as early as 2004/2005 fuel injection had come a long way since 90's first-gen versions.
@@nunyabusiness896 I owned and rallied a 2012 KTM EXC350, it fueled well, but needed a fuel pump etc, it could not be push started (fuel pump needs voltage) if the battery was dead. It never happened but on out of the way trails it was worrisome. As for later bikes I found that the Kawasaki ZR900 fueling was terrible and friends commented that their modern big bore ADV bikes were not dialed in or required Power Commanders or similar devices to run well. I think we are living in a golden age of motorcycles but I also appreciate that carburetors, although complex units, require much less ancillary components (fuel pumps, sensors, ECUs). From what I understand emissions requirements are better met by fuel injection (mapping code change rather than physical jets) and I suspect EFI may be less costly to produce than carburetors.
@@dinosaursr plus carburetors look like little pieces of art when you get them all cleaned up
The spookiest part of this video is how well it explains how the carb and choke work in simple terms
After recently inheriting (well, having dumped on me) an old Leyland DAF van with an SU car I was honestly shocked how ridiculously simple they are to work with. Sure its not perfect in every situation like EFI, but my god it makes the entire vehicle feel so simple when there's only 10 wires and buckets of free space because its not a zillion components, wires, sensors and fuel lines smashed into an absurdly small package
i got the first Toyota Starlet with EFI (1992) and even the first EFI are so simple and take up so little space its rediculous compared to todays monstrosities
The SU carb is fundamentally different in the way it works to the carb described in the video. SU carbs lingered longer than almost any other; as emission requirements became stricter in Europe the SU was the only one that could deliver fuel accurately enough and they never go out of tune. Even Ford had to develop their own constant vacuum carb, a particularly horrible thing it was too (Ford VV carb.)
The last of the SU carbs were closed loop with a Lambda sensor and a very small computer with a stepper motor to wind the jet up and down, would have been a really great idea, if only they had got Bosch do the electronics instead of Joe Lucas.
'Some people find it inconvenient to pull their knob once or twice a day but nine out of ten men don't seem to mind'. Gold.
It's funny when one single well-made video became a final decision maker on someone's bike build after he did a lot of research on putting carb or fi engine. (a friend of mine of course)
I think both can be cool depending on what you like. I see the fun in both systems
F9's take seems a little over-reductive on this one, to me.
Fuel injection is beyond the superior option. I don't even look at carbed bikes anymore after my experience with my first.
Hopefully he made the smart choice and went fuel injection..
I love my fuel injected 100th Anniversary Ultra Classic Electra Glide. I only had one problem one time with the fuel injection... and that was the servo motor in the throttle body went bad. It was replaced under warranty. Which brings me to this point. Sustainability. I believe that the more our motorcycles stray from the basic elements of design, the less likely that we will be able to enjoy them for many years. The range of years that any part on a motorcycle will fit, is getting more narrow as time goes on. This means that it is less economically feasible for the original manufacturer to supply any particular part, or for a third party manufacturer to decide that there is enough of a market to make that part. So the ECU, various sensors, electric fuel pump, throttle body, injectors, etc. will be hard to get. Any one of these items can be responsible for a problem with the fuel injection system. For a carbureted bike, all you needed was a rebuild kit for the carb. Maybe a jet kit. Maybe we should just budget a new $40,000 motorcycle every few years.
Its called planned obsolesce. Of course dealers want you in their shop as much as possible.
You left out one key part of F.I., the O2 sensor which measures the O2 in the exhaust stream. This allows the ECU to adjust the pulse width of the injector. A simple carburetor can not do that. Changes in temperature, humidity, and fuel quality can not be accounted for with a carb, meaning, sometimes, the bike is rich, sometimes it is lean, and on some occasions, it is running stoic. Note that an engine should always run slightly lean to allow a more complete burn. When run at Stoic, there isn't enough time for every fuel molecule to find the correct amount of air which leaves some unburnt fuel leaving the engine.
I was wondering about this. I just did a class the other day in which we were looking at O2 sensors. Anyways the O2 sensors provide feedback which is used provide fuel trim. Basically even if the map weren't 100% on its first "guess" the ECU would then either add or subtract fuel depending on what O2 sensor reads. That was my impression at least. Maybe I wasn't paying attention in class... What Ryan is describing sounds like an "open-loop" system (which I don't think anything uses nowadays).
This is true but most Motorcycles get rid of it or don't have it, The early ones didn't biggest benefit IMO as someone stated earlier is altitude if you drive up through mountains a carbed bike will lose power running rich out putting more Emissions "how dare you" sorry Greta Polar bears have not burst in to flames yet so go away and learn something you are being used as a talking puppet for these climate GRIFTERS. Also as Daniel wrote below or above? he described a open loop system...
@@Gunbustarhymes Some earlier FI systems were open loop, nowadays you'd only find that one on very cheap low displacement bikes, mainly those sold in markets like India and China. Everything nowadays is closed loop...sort of.
What most bikes today do is what most cars did during the 2000s which is use closed loop when they can, which means when load/rpm isn't changing very much so the ECU has time to do all the math, and the rest of the time reverts to open loop. The corrections done when under closed loop can be used to adjust the values on the maps giving a more accurate injection amount but ultimately it's always an aproximation, whenever you're changing throttle position or revs are climbing fast the ECU just ignores the O2 sensor signal.
Cars do a much better job a this because they have much more complex ECUs with much faster processors plus they use wideband O2 sensors that give a much more precise feedback, the traditional O2 sensors still used on bikes are binary they can only read "rich" or "lean".
@@josephschultz4097 The fact YOU don't understand what Climate Change is is YOUR fault, not Gretas. You are describing Weather not Climate. Bigger and longer storms, more extreme hot or cold temperatures, hurricane season being longer, that is climate and is definitely happening as a result of the polar ice caps melting and it pushing the jet stream further out than normal. The jet stream being changed is what is mostly responsible for all the weird local weather conditions in places that normally don't have them as often. We are getting once in a century storms every 3 years now. The added heat being keep in by the C02 emissions is making the ice caps melt. We went from freon destroying the ozone layer and impending cooling of the earth, to the complete opposite by making too much c02 and now holding in too much heat from the ozone layer.
if you are too hot in bed at night, you don't add more blankets, as that just traps more heat and makes it worse. We are doing that to the Earth with greenhouse gases.
@@josephschultz4097 Why advertise on a public forum that you don't have any understanding of the reality of climate change?
Injector Fuel maps are just the beginning. The ECU constantly adjust those maps with short term (non-stored) and long term (stored) trims to those maps based off feedback from engine sensors. Don't forget that a carburetor basically has a fuel map too. Only difference is that it's a mechanical one based off it's design, fixed and cannot make on the fly adjustments (for temperature, altitude, engine wear, etc.) like fuel trims do with injection.
Most fuel injected bikes lack oxygen sensors or mass air flow sensors, so the ECU can not actually make changes on the fly; as it has no idea how lean or rich the burn actually is. They simply reference the map for the limited sensors that they have (RPM, air temperature, coolant temp, throttle position)
@@gnashmelllow absolute BS. Even cheap-ass 125cc Hondas nowdays have Oxygen sensors. The fuel economy increase compared to the carbureted 125s of the 2000s is almost 50%.
@@luipars Some bikes do have them, you are correct. But the ECU only uses the data from the sensor in a closed loop mode when the bike is cold, idling, or being ridden mildly. Once up to temperature and being ridden with vigour they return to open loop and only check the fuel map, ignoring the sensors.
To be fair, modern bikes do operate on closed loop and map kicks in only occasionally. Thanks, euro9999 standard. A few bikes out there even have adaptive valve timing, so having a few sensors talk to the silicon cockroach isn't rocket science anymore.
Exactly. I would add that fuel injected bikes work better with altitude variation, whereas carbs really struggle to adjust from sea level to 6,000 feet or more. Jetted right for your home town? Great, hope you aren't riding or trailering to a mountain pass.
To my understanding, most bikes run narrow band O2 sensors which can only tell "rich" or "lean." They might apply a correction to the experimentally-determined fuel map, but do not do real-time tailored fuelling like most cars (which use mass airflow sensors (MAF) to actually read the amount of air *entering* the engine so the fuel injector can match it). ~RF9
My 2016 africa twin has a map (manifold absolute pressure) sensor and manifold temperature sensor which are used to calculate air mass flow rate. I really doubt its only a novelty :)
You can do real time fuelling with a narrow band sensor, in fact there are some cheap/crude EFI systems that use only throttle position, engine rpm and narrowband data for mixture control. Of course in such a case the throttle response will be awful.
@@FortNine software that runs on ECU can learn on what it's getting from o2 sensor and then use this data for corrections in open loop, also a lot of new bikes already have wide band o2 sensors.
Fuel injection for me, thanks.
I just want it to work whenever I want to ride-not the other way around. Lol
Every had your buddy's fuel pump go gunnybag while way up the trail?
@@P0rgyTirebiter No. And that's exactly what I'm talking about. Lmao
@@Maccaroney Hmm...a $300 fuel pump inside the tank compared to this thing called gravity..lmao indeed
@@P0rgyTirebiter I can't speak for all carb'd bikes, but at least some have vacuum-driven diaphragm fuel pumps that can leak and fail. Those in-tank pumps rarely fail unless a bike was left to sit for years and moisture, etc. rusted it out. Every case of a fuel injected pump failing I'm aware of were all neglected for long periods of time first. You also generally will have them fail on the first start attempt after a year+ of sitting, not in the middle of a trail ride unless you have sediment in the tank that clogs it up over the course of the ride, which is still your fault.
Agreed. People always tell me "good luck diagnosing a bad running fuel injected bike on the trail". But yet, non of fuel injected bikes haven't ever been running bad in the first place.
The gaze those two kids make while waiting is priceless :) Great video as always
I'm a car guy but never been into motorcycles much , UNTIL I watched you videos..now , now I wanna actually get a bike and begin tinkering with one..I NEVER knew just HOW INTERESTING and different they are..thank you my man , I will soon be a future rider !
The production as always amazing. This channel needs 100 million subs
There I was removing the 842 pieces from my carb. Thinking about the one piece throttle body on my EFI bike and it got me thinking. I wonder if the reason many people prefer fiddling with a carb is that… look! A blocked jet! Well clean it or replace it. With EFI, if it doesn’t start, you blink for ten seconds like Homer Simpson, break into a cold sweat and cry in the corner. A lot of riders are scared of electrics. “Can’t be fuel, look, the injectors are spraying……..”….. yeah but have you checked the pattern!!!! Well… okay… maybe it’s the sensor…. Which!? well…. Oxygen, temp, crank, camshaft, TPS, CPU. Mapping, ABS, seat temp, heated grips, ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz 😏😁
I’ve had Honda fuel injected for the last five years and for the last five years have had ZERO issues ever. Hardest part about going from carb to Honda FI is figuring out what to do with all this new spare time… might be why I’m commenting on TH-cam lol
Before that I had two carbed bikes for six years. Never again. I would rather go electric than carb 🤮 I also suspect fuel quality is very poor where I live. I had to constantly clean my carbs despite riding my bike almost daily for work (and I commuted 2 hrs both ways). Trust me, once you go Honda EFI, you cannot go back. I hear good things about Yamaha as well
I had a 2010 YZ 250F and then went to a KTM 2014 300 EXEC. Fuel injection blows carbies out of the water. Night and day. Cold starts. Tuning. yada yada yada. The two biggest pros were 1: injection starts on a steep hill no matter what and 2: You can get the motor wet going through a deep puddle and it still runs.
Carbs only exist as a cost cutting measure for manufacturers. EFI is superior in every way.
No doubt that fuel injection is hassle free. But for people who like to spend some time playing with their bike while not riding, I think carbs are still more desirable. I personally prefer the sound of old carbureted bike.
My carb dr350 starts on steep hills and runs even with engine under water. Which bike had those symphtoms?
@@ansgaryeysymontt7155 The YZ. Sounds like you were lucky. I've owned over 20 bikes. All of them carb. The KTM was the first injection bike and the best bike I ever owned for off-road. I now own a Honda 2015 CBR300R. Again, injection. I could drop the KTM on it's side and it would still run. Even after killing it. Righting the bike, then re-starting it started instantly. A carb never does that. It's floods and you need to work the fuel back out of the venturi.
@@aanpermana I've owned many carbed bikes. Each to their own. But after owning injection, carbed is a problem I can certainly live without.
These videos are so good. I've been keeping my 2017 KLR running myself with no training for 75K miles. So far I had to change clutch plates and, more recently, piston rings. Took me a while to figure out clutch plates. Piston rings I identified right away from oil-fouled spark plug, thanks to my Clymer manual. The bearings on the rear wheel broke while bike was over-loaded but that could be because I put it back together wrong. Cooling issues have plagued me since I first got it and kamikaze'd into a ditch I didn't see. After that I added crash bars. Made a few mods to the carburetor, but I seem to be getting less power than I did before. That's why I watched this video. Hopefully I can figure out why I'm not getting most HP possible. Just saw most recent ebay replacement radiator leaking this morning. Guess I'll go back to one of my old spares. Oh and I swapped out the exhaust cam-shaft. It wore down a good full mm hugely increasing valve clearances. For some reason my front-right valve is still way more clearance than it should be. No shim sizes would bring it to spec. Not sure what to do there. Could be the valve lifter...
I tuned the carb on my dirt bike to perfection for my conditions. Mountain riding between 4-6k feet above sea level. It was a 2 stroke and I used premium gas mixed with quality synthetic oil. It was not terribly difficult and once it was tuned, the bike ran flawlessly every time.
no one cares, not a sole came here hoping to find out if WT ever tuned a carb this isn't your channel you're adding nothing to this video
One minute in, and it's already pure art.
all of their videos
Every video yall make is a cinematic masterpiece! Well done once again
So this video was exactly what i was looking for in my decision to buy a carbureted VSTAR or Fuel injected. I've decided I don't have to go FI. I have cleaned my yz250 carburator and feel confident I can do it on the VSTAR. Going today to pick up my 06 VSTAR Silverado!! :) First street bike I've owned!! Thanks for the video. I will definitely support Fortnine!
A carbureted V star is a great choice! I went through my carbs once, and have put thousands of miles on the bike with no trouble. 50mpg. Just watch a few videos about the adjustments, In winter I start it up and warm it up, about every two weeks.
I love how the first shot is supposed to be spooky but F9 couldn't help firming the little squirrel
Squirrels are demons and you won't convince me otherwise. ~RF9
@@FortNine but, but, but, I have lots of squirrel friends. They are a little gray ground squirrels behind the store where I work. I feed them with a slingshot across the creek. I have gotten in trouble with the police for doing this. There is nothing funnier than watching about 20 squirrels running after the peanuts that I shoot at them.By the power of gray squirrel, it is very funny to watch
Solution: Spend a little more and buy non-ethanol fuel. In Canada you can still get premium that doesn't contain any ethanol at a lot of gas stations. Plus it's easy to test the fuel for ethanol. It really saves a lot of headaches in any small engine.
Hard to find alcohol here in the states.
@@HighGear7445 everything is e15 in the US now, and e85+ can be had in any major city
@@barryallen5507 No mostly E-10 here , some E15 but spotty and you can get alcohol free in 2 high grades mostly in the summer months for old hotrods and small engines, just a few sell it.
Great video! Ive been working on a 74 g4tr 100cc two-stroke. Due to its age, i have basically put myself through carb and magneto/ electrical systems school for the last month, so i have the basics....so having this basic knowledge allowed me to completely follow this thoroughly organized video! Thanks!
Remember 2t school too. Your jetting will always be wrong if your old crank seals are leaking the pressurized air/fuel during the downstroke.
Back in the day I could balance dual Amals on a British twin. Taught it to a tall blonde with a new EJag. Instant friendship but no joy. No chemistry. So it was my good deed for the day.
Don’t miss carbs on my Triumph liter bike though. I don’t mind a little wrenching but having once owned a Norton and a Jag, both with Lucas electrics, I have paid my dues. Triumph triples are a real improvement.
I have to say, and I’m sure many will agree… the quality and research that have goes Into your videos are simply amazing. I’m studying motorcycle mechanics at college and your videos are really helping clear the things up the things I don’t understand. Cheers 🤙🏼
I would take the F.I. every day over the carb. Everything, which I've owned and had a carb eventually required me to take it off and deal with it. I like the dependable F.I. and thanks to a Power Commander I can actually as do some tuning. Nice video :)
This is exactly why I do and don't want an injected bike. I enjoy working on my bike, but it's also a pain in the ass. The solution? Get 2 bikes!
@@mattlegge8538 The solution; spend more money
@@Josh-cw8by That took me over a month last time because I had to order parts. Not looking forward to next time
The finest mix of education and entertainment. Great as always!
My Honda VTX 1300c sits in my basement during the winter, but not before I add the recommended amount of Stabil to the tank, run it through and top it off. It sits for 6 months. In spring, I pull it out, turn the key on and fire it up. No choke. It fires up every time. So, as far as I know, I'm doing things right.
Wow! Excellent production but more importantly excellent explanation. It's said if you truly understand something you can explain it simply. You guys totally understand this. Thanks for breaking it all the way down!
I've had gas go bad in a month like 3 times, but I just rode a dyna that sat for 4 years home. Have driven countless old cars and truck out of the woods over the years. Seems modern gas goes bad faster or slower depending on a lot of different things.
Also check your cam chain tensioners in that dyna if you haven't yet 😁
What % is us gas now? We recently got e10 (10% ethanol) here in the uk 5% is still available as premium but as I've got 2 bikes one sport that rests for winter and an enduro that just screams about like Pablo escobar at a party I do worry.
I travel for work and sometimes leave my dyna for literal months. NEVER ONCE had a problem with my gas. (And yeah I’ve already done the cam shoes lol)
@@arg31ify Most US gasoline has UP TO 10%, for both premium and regular. Mid Grade can be seen with UP TO 15%. ratio changes depending on season. It is possible to find E85, and Pure Gasoline. Pure gasoline being harder to find, of course.
Have you guys had luck with / tried using fuel stabilizers?
@@arg31ify can't speak for commiefornia as their gas is slightly different, but most of the US has 10% eth as the standard. But it isn't all gas, we can still buy ethanol free gas fairly easily, but not every service station will have it and it does cost more than the usual 10% blended gas.
I used 15 year old fuel the other day in my 2004 snowmobile. Also my scooter has a carb and was sitting 5 months in the garage with E10 and started perfectly.
Interestingly, fuel injection can actually adjust the fueling to the engine and engine condition, while a carb won't. It isn't just reading from a table and squirting fuel into the engine. A lot of data is collected and stored in volatile and non volatile memory in the ECU. It can correct for a worn air filter, an intake leak, elevation changes, intake air temperature, etc. O2 sensors allow for learning while in closed loop. While a carb can't.
You seem to suggest carbs are better. I disagree. Fuel injection gives an engineer way more freedom to have an engine/motorcycle run well. Ride modes, throttle maps per gear, fuel cut off on the overrun, autoblip, knock sensors, engine braking, traction control.... (it also gives them way more freedom to fook up btw).
A nicely done video (as always), but I hate to say it, you got it wrong imho.
Btw, direct fuel injection in cars is not the holy grail either, and comes with its own set of problems.
Not to mention the fact that perfect stoichiometry isn't always what you want. For more power during acceleration, you generally want it to be rich, while for efficient operation at cruise, it needs to be slightly lean. Carbs can do this too with additional jets that come on stream at different throttle settings, but it adds further complexity. And that's before we get into emissions control.
What about multipoint injection?
@@forsaken7161 The majority of motorcycles have multipoint injection, yes.
The Honda cbr954rr had the first 3d mapping of the internal fuel injection spray that was displayed to the ecu. Even to this day that's state of the art technology and that was in 03, that bike was designed for the track but not enough people caught on until years later unfortunately it was only made for 02 and 03, 03 being the most beneficial ecu changes.
Once a smart person say "the more you make things complex, the more pain in ass you get "
And i agree with it .
I forget sometimes that this level of knowledge and production is on tap anytime I want it, for free.
Crazy