Excellent test, thanks for all the effort! So unless I'm mistaken the new combined air & water heater has an output of about 1.3kW to the water (on average, probably decreases as the water gets warmer). The EGR on the air only model is capturing around 400W. The EGR on the combined air and water heater is only gathering less than an additional 100W so hard to argue it's worth the effort. Great to have these figures so as to be able to make a judgement call on how worthwhile the EGR is in a particular application. Overall it makes the combined unit look like the way forward if both air and water heating are required. It's full system efficiency appears to be very high while it is heating water.
Reassuring seeing we Scots extending the boundaries of knowledge again. Can I suggest a wee end of reel accordion chord at the end of Hellooooo !! to keep things really shortbread. Thanks for all the videos and the effort you put into this. Happy new year mate.
Thanks, great information! I plan on using the EGR cooler on the exhaust to heat my freshwater tank to prevent freezing. Talk is cheap but research is expensive and rarely done, thanks for sharing this research!
This is way late, but would adjusting the speed of the fan, and or fuel supply effect the water temperature off the egr exchanger? Less air across the burn chamber = more exhaust temp?
Seems like the air/water unit is scavenging heat from the exhaust before it exits the heater itself, that's why the egr only collected an additional 100w.
Thanks for the video demonstration or preheating with exhaust energy (energy recovery ventilation). On a larger scale I think it would make sense to install a heat exchanger over griddles and grills in restaurants to preheat the water going to the hot water heater.
Great Video! I'm about to purchase one of these heaters for my van & my idea to recover the heat for water was to extend the exhaust pipe (may as well keep as much heat in the van) and wrap copper tube around the entire exhaust ... wrap it with that exhaust heat material / insulator bandage stuff... pump through a small car heater matrix or AC condensor (as a radiator) and on into a water tank..I think using copper pipe with more direct conatct / surface area than an egr cooler will improve the heat recovered / water temperature. Maybe something you'd be interested in testing in your Air & Water Heater Test Laboratory :-) Great Channel....Just Subbed!
Do you need to insulate your egr from the ambient air. Could we have had an average temp of the exiting gas from the system so we know which system gets every ounce of heat harvested.
Think, that in your second test: Air/water heater+ EGR you should have put EGR before AIR/water heater, so that water from bucket could been preheated in EGR before entering heat exchanger, since heat exchanger in heating unit is more powerful and more efficient than EGR. The way you connected it EGR can not create any more temp rise after water exits heat exchanger.
David McLuckie I follow you from Italy, Great experiments keep it up !!! Is it possible to create a closed circuit connected to a plate exchanger to heat the water? to have continuous hot water?
Try reversing the flow. Though the egr first or the heater/water heater first. Also what about trying a turbo intercooler in the exhaust with a fan to get more heat out of the unit. Instead of blasting it out the door.
Just a thought but have you tried running the exhaust from the heater through a bare shell of another heater either air or water there might be more to be recovered that way
Thanks for brainstorming !So interesting. Right ... is there a way to rig up an 'instant hot water' version like an electric shower obviously will be lower volume ,but l am thinking hot water for my sink in the van and maybe sort of tepid shower set up - l hate paying for bottle gas, diesel is so much cheaper - Merry Christmas and happy Hogmanay
Yes and no. There are diesel fired pressure washers that heat water on the fly, but of course it's a much bigger device and uses much more fuel. If you want to heat a little bit of water a lot, or you want to heat a lot of water up a little bit in a short time, you need a big heat source. Also remember that this type of device takes a while to heat up and produce heat anyway, so isn't suited for instant hot water.
The original cut burn chamber one. Cut it off and extend the stainless burn chamber with stainless tubing. Double wrap inside and to then outside with a copper pipe in a single circuit. Wrap outer in insulation. You could even then go on to the egr exchanger on the exhaust to squeeze out every btu of heat
Many thanks for an alternative to “The sound of Music” (AGAIN!) on Christmas Eve. Are you aware of the Truma Therme? We had one in a caravan many years ago, and it heated (ok, warmed) water using the blown air side of a Propex gas heater. I’ve seen them on Fleabay (non electric type) for a few £10’s, so something new to add to this series maybe? Keep up the great edutainment, the best way to learn is when you are enjoying it!
I'm guessing that the exhaust gases from the air & water heater have been cooled to the point where the EGR cooler isn't extracting anything worthwhile, so far better to just rely on the built-in heat exchanger for the hot water... :)
Is there any way to do air to air heat exchange on the exhaust? I’m up and running in my shop with a 5 kW heater on alcohol. Just trying to figure out a way to capture exhaust heat without a water set up. Run a long exhaust? Run the exhaust through an old car radiator?
Brilliant as ever. My guess is that the heat differential between the the water leaving the air/water machine and the gasses in the egr cooler was smaller so less transfer occurred latterly in the experiment. If you plotted the graph of temp rise over time it might show if this were the case. Initial heat up may be quicker but then flatten out. Have a good one!
What about installing a thermoelectric generator device on the heater, it would create electricity and possibly create enough electricity to keep a battery charged as it runs. Thank you for awesome videos!!!
what car is this EGR from? trying to find the one most easy to install / creates the least restritions on the exuast/ while still being able to heat a small watertank
I have a 5kw heater. Im using the method of wrapping copper pipe around the exhaust to heat the water in my van. However if I want the heater on (not making hot water) if I just leave the water pump off the water inside the copper pipe will boil. Would this cause a high pressure build up in which case would I be best to vent the hot water tank a little. Or just buy one of those 16kw deisel water heater you reviewed
@@DavidMcLuckie I'm still running tests to see if I can get more efficiency from the exhaust. However your 16kw deisel water heater seems to be brilliant as its so fast. If you don't mind me asking what was the total cost of the unit with the controller etc. I followed your link but does give me a cost for shipping and import. Would you consider selling your one ?
It was almost as much to ship it as it was to buy it. I think it came in at just about £300 once all the import duties were paid as well. I wouldn't sell this one as I have plans for it.
How about running the egr cooler on the output of the hot side of the heater and not on the inlet side of it on the water and air heater? Love your videos, keep them coming.
@@DavidMcLuckie The best heat transfer happens when the delta between heat source and heated medium is greatest, so having TWO separate lines from the tank would reduce the inefficiency of having the water piped in series, where the second heater in the series has a low delta and therefore low heat transfer.
The air and water is 4KW body. The water heating part is about 1KW. With regards the pump I cannot remember. It might have been a 12V coolant pump, the kind you find on VW etc.
I will b using free hot water to circulate my tropical fish tanks as a power cut will b disastrous. Can b use heat exchange under metal plate / ceramics for floor heating or propagator for seedings
I guess a 'purpose built/ engineered, exhaust tubing thru a stainless chamber wid two outlet (for water piping)' & suitably encased in thermal materials can trap more heat resulting in better output???
They should make a conversion for the Air heaters to become hybrids. Just add water channeling heat exchanger, and a heat tolerant pump , and a compatible bottom for the shell call it a kit....tada.
Dear David. why my stove is not working 2 kw what if you get body from the car body? if you don't get a body just through the cable then it works. opinion?
What we really need is a cheap way to get all of the canbus webasto's working! Really want some kind of heater for my van but don't even want to put in £90 for a China one. Good job
Is it dangerous to run the range of diesel heaters without any water? This could be a great system for caravans instead of, or to compliment the gas Thetford caravan 10ltr boilers, everyone who sees my 2kw in my caravan loves it!
David, I have a question on your water temperature sensor. I see it is plugged in the a/mA connection. What is your sensor made of ? Does it have some kind of a transistor that has either 2 of the Emitter, Base and Collector connected together? Also, happy you do these videos as it seems to be the cheapest way to heat up any areas that requires warmth. Merry Christmas to you and may 2020 bring more useful and interesting videos. Cheers mate!
i just used a large egr cooler and did the same thing with much higher efficiency also if your goal is to extract as much energy as possible use a larger reservoir as the temp difference is what is dettermening how fast it is heating up
disappointed the standard unit with egr was half as good at it as the water air unit. To get closer efficiency guess would have to insulate the snot out of exhaust pipe and heat exchanger.
Getting only an extra 4° out of adding EGR.. Do you think it was because you were pumping that heated water from the EGR to the heater rather than cold water directly from the tank. Maybe the heater could impart more heat into colder water than it could with warm water. If you could re run the test with two water circuits and two pumps that may tell.
From what I understand, you have made a condensing boiler with this egr cooler. Now from what I understand of condensing boilers, they are only more efficient when the incoming water is cool enough to extract waste heat, once your tank reached say 40-50 degrees, the 50 degree water wasn’t able to extract much more heat from the exhaust gasses. Would be interesting to see this experiment done with a larger vessel of water and maybe see how long it takes to reach lower temperatures, let’s say 50 degrees Celsius?
I have a feeling the one with egr cooler May each 50 degrees quite a bit faster than the one without, but with diminishing returns from there. Maybe try recording results at 5 minute intervals?
I would love to see if putting the EGR cooler before the water heater vs after the water heater would make a difference, also Would love to see if The input and output for water at the EGR cooler were switched around (would inputting the water at the further end or closer end to the heat make a difference)? , Maybe even go as far as shortening the Exhaust pipe between the heater and EGR cooler. I know that it's hard to test for and to see but there is a lot of Heat loss the further you are from the heat source. Please see if you can at least try it with the EGR cooler closer to the Heater :) Cheers.
ah Yes. also Would Running the water line in parallel instead of series make a difference? (basically run the water through the water heater, and run a separate line and pump for the EGR cooler?
Just tuned into your channel. Cracking video. I've been looking at these Chinese air heaters. Didn't know there was an air and water version. Does anyone have a link or price of them please.
Excellent test, thanks for all the effort!
So unless I'm mistaken the new combined air & water heater has an output of about 1.3kW to the water (on average, probably decreases as the water gets warmer).
The EGR on the air only model is capturing around 400W.
The EGR on the combined air and water heater is only gathering less than an additional 100W so hard to argue it's worth the effort.
Great to have these figures so as to be able to make a judgement call on how worthwhile the EGR is in a particular application.
Overall it makes the combined unit look like the way forward if both air and water heating are required. It's full system efficiency appears to be very high while it is heating water.
use a larger reservoir and the egr will gather almost 1kw due to the temp difference
Reassuring seeing we Scots extending the boundaries of knowledge again. Can I suggest a wee end of reel accordion chord at the end of Hellooooo !! to keep things really shortbread.
Thanks for all the videos and the effort you put into this. Happy new year mate.
Great test and you are very entertaining. Thanks mate.
Great video been waiting for this lol thanks for the time and effort you put into these videos I hope you all have a great xmas and new year
Another top video m8! Informative, amusing and addictive with respect to these Chinese heaters. Keep up the good work in 2020. Cheers Richard
Quite conclusive results - thanks for doing that. All the best to you and yours for the festive season.
Thanks, great information! I plan on using the EGR cooler on the exhaust to heat my freshwater tank to prevent freezing. Talk is cheap but research is expensive and rarely done, thanks for sharing this research!
This is way late, but would adjusting the speed of the fan, and or fuel supply effect the water temperature off the egr exchanger? Less air across the burn chamber = more exhaust temp?
Seems like the air/water unit is scavenging heat from the exhaust before it exits the heater itself, that's why the egr only collected an additional 100w.
They're heat transfer seems to be closely related to how much diesel was burned.
Do you have a link for the egr? Or where would someone pick one up at?
Thanks for the video demonstration or preheating with exhaust energy (energy recovery ventilation). On a larger scale I think it would make sense to install a heat exchanger over griddles and grills in restaurants to preheat the water going to the hot water heater.
It'd clog up with gunk you dunce!
Great Video! I'm about to purchase one of these heaters for my van & my idea to recover the heat for water was to extend the exhaust pipe (may as well keep as much heat in the van) and wrap copper tube around the entire exhaust ... wrap it with that exhaust heat material / insulator bandage stuff... pump through a small car heater matrix or AC condensor (as a radiator) and on into a water tank..I think using copper pipe with more direct conatct / surface area than an egr cooler will improve the heat recovered / water temperature.
Maybe something you'd be interested in testing in your Air & Water Heater Test Laboratory :-)
Great Channel....Just Subbed!
Very cool test, thanks! I definitely see why you got tired of doing these heat extraction tests!
Do you need to insulate your egr from the ambient air.
Could we have had an average temp of the exiting gas from the system so we know which system gets every ounce of heat harvested.
_Wondering if you have tested the water for purification, before and afterward?_
Think, that in your second test: Air/water heater+ EGR you should have put EGR before AIR/water heater, so that water from bucket could been preheated in EGR before entering heat exchanger, since heat exchanger in heating unit is more powerful and more efficient than EGR. The way you connected it EGR can not create any more temp rise after water exits heat exchanger.
David McLuckie I follow you from Italy, Great experiments keep it up !!!
Is it possible to create a closed circuit connected to a plate exchanger to heat the water? to have continuous hot water?
Thanks very detailed and informative can you recommend a compact air and water heater for a camper van swb traffic
Try reversing the flow. Though the egr first or the heater/water heater first. Also what about trying a turbo intercooler in the exhaust with a fan to get more heat out of the unit. Instead of blasting it out the door.
Just a thought but have you tried running the exhaust from the heater through a bare shell of another heater either air or water there might be more to be recovered that way
When you test the wabasto heater can you give us all the wiring diagram please
When I order another one and get it working I'll do a video of it. I've also got a 16KW chinese version coming. :)
@@DavidMcLuckie boohoo keep up the good work
Ment woohoo
Thanks for brainstorming !So interesting. Right ... is there a way to rig up an 'instant hot water' version like an electric shower obviously will be lower volume ,but l am thinking hot water for my sink in the van and maybe sort of tepid shower set up - l hate paying for bottle gas, diesel is so much cheaper - Merry Christmas and happy Hogmanay
Yes and no.
There are diesel fired pressure washers that heat water on the fly, but of course it's a much bigger device and uses much more fuel.
If you want to heat a little bit of water a lot, or you want to heat a lot of water up a little bit in a short time, you need a big heat source.
Also remember that this type of device takes a while to heat up and produce heat anyway, so isn't suited for instant hot water.
Could youuse a plate heat exchanger say from a centrel heating boiler on the exhaust output ? Thus having warm Air & boiling water 💧
Not sure how they bond the plates together and if it would take the hot gases.
The original cut burn chamber one. Cut it off and extend the stainless burn chamber with stainless tubing. Double wrap inside and to then outside with a copper pipe in a single circuit. Wrap outer in insulation. You could even then go on to the egr exchanger on the exhaust to squeeze out every btu of heat
Perhaps an insulated egr and hoses for the abomination heater?
Many thanks for an alternative to “The sound of Music” (AGAIN!) on Christmas Eve.
Are you aware of the Truma Therme? We had one in a caravan many years ago, and it heated (ok, warmed) water using the blown air side of a Propex gas heater. I’ve seen them on Fleabay (non electric type) for a few £10’s, so something new to add to this series maybe?
Keep up the great edutainment, the best way to learn is when you are enjoying it!
I'm guessing that the exhaust gases from the air & water heater have been cooled to the point where the EGR cooler isn't extracting anything worthwhile, so far better to just rely on the built-in heat exchanger for the hot water... :)
I think the AGR cooler helps in the beginning to heat up the water quicker, bur then becomes useless at a certain water temperature.
Thx for the test!
Damn, expected a bit more from the air - water heater & EGR combo...
Conclusion seems to be, just get a air water diesel heater.
Merry Christmas David to you and all the family, have a good one
Is there any way to do air to air heat exchange on the exhaust? I’m up and running in my shop with a 5 kW heater on alcohol. Just trying to figure out a way to capture exhaust heat without a water set up. Run a long exhaust? Run the exhaust through an old car radiator?
Brilliant as ever.
My guess is that the heat differential between the the water leaving the air/water machine and the gasses in the egr cooler was smaller so less transfer occurred latterly in the experiment. If you plotted the graph of temp rise over time it might show if this were the case. Initial heat up may be quicker but then flatten out.
Have a good one!
What about installing a thermoelectric generator device on the heater, it would create electricity and possibly create enough electricity to keep a battery charged as it runs. Thank you for awesome videos!!!
or to run the water pump
what car is this EGR from?
trying to find the one most easy to install /
creates the least restritions on the exuast/
while still being able to heat a small watertank
That one is from a Ford Transit van, VW Passat is another one I've seen used.
I have a 5kw heater. Im using the method of wrapping copper pipe around the exhaust to heat the water in my van. However if I want the heater on (not making hot water) if I just leave the water pump off the water inside the copper pipe will boil. Would this cause a high pressure build up in which case would I be best to vent the hot water tank a little. Or just buy one of those 16kw deisel water heater you reviewed
If you're happy with the copper tube setup, just use a vented tank.
@@DavidMcLuckie
I'm still running tests to see if I can get more efficiency from the exhaust. However your 16kw deisel water heater seems to be brilliant as its so fast. If you don't mind me asking what was the total cost of the unit with the controller etc. I followed your link but does give me a cost for shipping and import.
Would you consider selling your one ?
It was almost as much to ship it as it was to buy it. I think it came in at just about £300 once all the import duties were paid as well. I wouldn't sell this one as I have plans for it.
You need a heat exchanger similar to the propane hot water on demand. These are optimized for heat extraction.
How about running the egr cooler on the output of the hot side of the heater and not on the inlet side of it on the water and air heater? Love your videos, keep them coming.
Worth a try.
@@DavidMcLuckie The best heat transfer happens when the delta between heat source and heated medium is greatest, so having TWO separate lines from the tank would reduce the inefficiency of having the water piped in series, where the second heater in the series has a low delta and therefore low heat transfer.
Can you share a diagram of what you are doing? I still couldn’t understand how you heat the water? Thank you :)
What kw is the first setup..the air water heater?.. also what brand was the water circulating pump you used..regards Gerry
The air and water is 4KW body. The water heating part is about 1KW. With regards the pump I cannot remember. It might have been a 12V coolant pump, the kind you find on VW etc.
I will b using free hot water to circulate my tropical fish tanks as a power cut will b disastrous.
Can b use heat exchange under metal plate / ceramics for floor heating or propagator for seedings
The exhaust pipe and egr cooler need to be insulated. It will recover much more heat that way
Brilliant summary, wonder what the ultimate temperature achievable is of the std heater + EGR cooler, say over a 4-6hr period ?
great video you are the heater master dude ! merry x mass !
I guess a 'purpose built/ engineered, exhaust tubing thru a stainless chamber wid two outlet (for water piping)' & suitably encased in thermal materials can trap more heat resulting in better output???
I do have a purpose built pool heat exchanger but I don't think it recovered any more heat than anything else.
They should make a conversion for the Air heaters to become hybrids. Just add water channeling heat exchanger, and a heat tolerant pump , and a compatible bottom for the shell call it a kit....tada.
Dear David. why my stove is not working 2 kw what if you get body from the car body? if you don't get a body just through the cable then it works. opinion?
The heater doesn't use the car body as ground. It needs to be through the cable.
@@DavidMcLuckie Thanks for the reply.
What we really need is a cheap way to get all of the canbus webasto's working! Really want some kind of heater for my van but don't even want to put in £90 for a China one. Good job
Just found out you can get an ECU that fits the Webasto and doesn't use any canbus. I've ordered one so should have a video of it soon. Hopefully.
@@DavidMcLuckie awesome! Webasto prices about to go up 😆shame for them all to just get scrapped though
Is it dangerous to run the range of diesel heaters without any water? This could be a great system for caravans instead of, or to compliment the gas Thetford caravan 10ltr boilers, everyone who sees my 2kw in my caravan loves it!
David, I have a question on your water temperature sensor. I see it is plugged in the a/mA connection. What is your sensor made of ? Does it have some kind of a transistor that has either 2 of the Emitter, Base and Collector connected together?
Also, happy you do these videos as it seems to be the cheapest way to heat up any areas that requires warmth.
Merry Christmas to you and may 2020 bring more useful and interesting videos. Cheers mate!
It's a K-Type thermocouple and has its own plug on the multimeter.
Ur measurements were 69,75 degrees on the two first burns how did u get the 56 and 60 numbers in the end of the video??
Those are how much the water was heated not it's final temperature.
i just used a large egr cooler and did the same thing with much higher efficiency also if your goal is to extract as much energy as possible use a larger reservoir as the temp difference is what is dettermening how fast it is heating up
How big an EGR cooler did you use, and where did it come from? :)
disappointed the standard unit with egr was half as good at it as the water air unit. To get closer efficiency guess would have to insulate the snot out of exhaust pipe and heat exchanger.
lol.... ok.... see now this got hit on in an earlier comment/replies
how much water was used to heat up?
10 litres
Getting only an extra 4° out of adding EGR.. Do you think it was because you were pumping that heated water from the EGR to the heater rather than cold water directly from the tank. Maybe the heater could impart more heat into colder water than it could with warm water.
If you could re run the test with two water circuits and two pumps that may tell.
Yes. I think the egr would work better running on its own supply. Which is something I could test again.
Great video, very informative...
From what I understand, you have made a condensing boiler with this egr cooler. Now from what I understand of condensing boilers, they are only more efficient when the incoming water is cool enough to extract waste heat, once your tank reached say 40-50 degrees, the 50 degree water wasn’t able to extract much more heat from the exhaust gasses. Would be interesting to see this experiment done with a larger vessel of water and maybe see how long it takes to reach lower temperatures, let’s say 50 degrees Celsius?
I have a feeling the one with egr cooler May each 50 degrees quite a bit faster than the one without, but with diminishing returns from there. Maybe try recording results at 5 minute intervals?
why the rag over the input
It's in the exhaust. So as to force all the exhaust out through the EGR cooler.
Maybe a dumb question. Can you heat the water only?
Negative, air and water at the same time.
Thank you for your reply.
So what if it is summer time and you want hot water but no hot air?
always informative / enjoyable.
I would love to see if putting the EGR cooler before the water heater vs after the water heater would make a difference, also Would love to see if The input and output for water at the EGR cooler were switched around (would inputting the water at the further end or closer end to the heat make a difference)? , Maybe even go as far as shortening the Exhaust pipe between the heater and EGR cooler. I know that it's hard to test for and to see but there is a lot of Heat loss the further you are from the heat source. Please see if you can at least try it with the EGR cooler closer to the Heater :)
Cheers.
ah Yes. also Would Running the water line in parallel instead of series make a difference? (basically run the water through the water heater, and run a separate line and pump for the EGR cooler?
Just tuned into your channel. Cracking video. I've been looking at these Chinese air heaters. Didn't know there was an air and water version. Does anyone have a link or price of them please.
I've put the link in the description.
@@DavidMcLuckie missed that. Thanks👍😁
12:50 for results
If you jump straight to the results you miss all that entertainment
nice work man 🎄🎄🙂👍
I'm not totally sure but; didn't Dr. Frankenstein start out tinkering on things like this....lol!!!!!😕😆
The water and exhaust need to travel against each other for maximum heat transfer .
Nice work mate! Wishing you and your family a Merry Christmas 🎄✨🎈🎆🧨🎇💥🎅🥂🎈🎄💖🎆🧨🎇💥🎅🎄🥂
It would be hotter if secondary egr was as close as you can get it
Yes, but not by a huge amount.
Your amazing. Every question I have you have a video to on it.
I thought EGR would be more efficient.
Put the exhaust thing closer to the heater!!
Half as good and twice a s far away from the flamed...EGR needs to be right up to the heater to get the best out of it and run the pump slower.
The water should be flowing the opposite way threw the egr cooler !
Which way, and why?
Awesome, as fucking humanly possible. Lmfao
👍
Kn'oath mate
I'm too high for this right now, I'll come back later.....
We run the gas off the electricity and the electricity off the gas and we save two hundred pounds a year
Struckgold lolololol