I was unofficially, the first actual passenger on this train. A couple weeks ago, it was doing Sunday trials, with invited guests onboard. Right place, right time, I hopped on the train. When I got off at my stop, the guard was all sorts of flustered. “Does not compute, does not compute…malfunction”. LOL
I'm glad we're getting good use out of old tube trains and this should be a great option for truly rural areas. But for somewhere built up we really should be electrifiying properly.
Now this trial is producing stat's they can do the sums to see for full electrification is needed, I would hope it's "total cost of ownership" is already cheaper than the diesel option ⛽
I would think in the right area instead of just a 1 MW of power for Train could have 10-20 MW system into local grid. Stabilize grid, cushion the charge/discharge amount for train over more batteries and make extra money selling electricity when prices are high.
I was Senior Buyer and Analyst for the company that built this electric train and others. The others went to USA. There were other unbelivable inovations that occoured during building this train. The original builder of this train is Vivarail, I actually wore one of their jackets to work today with pride. Ian Campbell Kelly was a great inovator at Vivarail. If you are train-person I can explain. But just look at the quality of the train. Vivarail should have been huge, I will not go into the details of what went wrong - just let me say Vivarail could have (in my opinion) been the Tesla of trains. Brilliant work that Dave and Julian have done - what a shame Vivarail was not the massive success it could have been for the UK.
Can you explain why Vivarail/GWR designed this custom shoe coupler instead of using well-understood 140-year-old overhead wires (which you can see at West Ealing station at 12:45) to recharge? Was it just to save money converting these Class 230 trains were originally London Underground D78 electric cars? Also, everyone wants to know if the trains have regenerative braking, and GWR's own press release don't say.
@@skierpage Good question! Parts of the answer were given in the video but I agree that without already knowing the history this particular point wasn't covered in detail. Yes, W Ealing is on the electrified mail line going West out of London. BUT the infrastructure you mention can't handle anywhere near the levels of current needed to recharge a train in 3 mins. On Merseyside they have a battery train that recharges from third rail, but that train only runs on battery for a few percent of it's duty cycle. The wires at West Ealing continue over the Hanwell viaduct, but well before then the line to Greenford has turned off, and that is not electricified at all. So unlike the Merseyside solution they would have to use about 10% of the journey to recharge a whole round trips worth of power ... Or the train could sit in the station at West Ealing for an hour between services, whereas the video did explain quite well that the goal was to return to service after only 3 mins after arriving. The longer term reason is more strategic. GWR has a huge number of branch lines that are similarly unelectrified, but join an electrified main line. By the time the original developers of this train had run out of money, GWR saw the tech would meet a need they have on each of those branch lines, and by then the prospects looked good that it would actually work Due to Vivarail (the original developer company) going bust, GWR was able to buy into the success without having taken the original financial risk. Happily, the development team also kept their jobs, but after the buyout the new management refocused the project on the specific needs of GWR and it's branch lines, because that's what they wanted from their rescue. Other interesting ideas that Vivarail had had, that were technically just as successful, were dropped because they didn't fit into the GWR strategy. And at least something was salvaged -- in my opinion the battery train was the tech that would have had the most impact on the climate crisis, so from an eco perspective it was a happy result too
@@skierpage regarding the braking system: it's described as "electro-reactive pneumatic". I'm not sure if that means it is partially regen, or not at all. Maybe others can help unpack that terminology?
Battery trains are a good idea for unnelectrified branch lines that run on diesel as it would electrify the line quicker and cheaper than install overhand pickup lines via pantograph or third rail via running shoe.
Trains with batteries onboard are also a good idea for covering a gap in overhead or third rail systems. In these use cases the train usually picks up power while moving along, but when it reaches a gap it runs on the battery power, and recharges the onboard battery when it gets to the end of the gap. Clearly that is a different kind of battery train to this one: the batteries can be smaller, and don't need lineside storage as they are recharged from the normal running current whenever it's available. Use cases: - tunnels where the civil engineering to usual overhead wiring is prohibitively expensive - container yards, where there has to be a gap in overhead wiring to allow the containers in and off. At present this either involves use of a diesel shunter, or complicated movements to allow the train to be pushed/pulled under the crane without the electric loco also going underneath. - historic railway architecture, such as the viaduct near Bath, where local people, listed buildings regs, and English Heritage strongly oppose the (alleged) spoiling of the historic architecture with overhead wiring. - extending an existing electrified service without needing more wires/third rail. This was fine by Merseyrail for the extension to Headbolt. Unlike the fat charge system, the batteries are slowly recharged from the running current while the train follows the rest of its service route visiting all the other stations on the line. What's different here is the fast charging scheme. As well as being a game changer for the kind of shuttle service been West Ealing and Greenford, this success also makes it more feasible to put money into making batteries to cover gaps into a real thing.
@@trueriver1950Your last point is exactly what is happening in Ireland. Irish Rail put a big order for a fleet of battery trains, they will run on the existing electrified tracks around Dublin and then switch to battery to run on non electrified tracks around Dublin for up to 40km from Dublin. Greatly increasing the range, frequency and capacity of Dublins commuter rail network. They do plan to eventually electrify those tracks, but it will take years longer because of complex bridges, etc. They can then take the batteries off the train and use them as line side battery storage systems. First trains of the new fleet just arrived in the last few weeks and are starting testing soon. All very clever.
I don't remember hearing anything about regenerative braking. Was still very impressed with the range with such a small battery, considering the weight of the train.
@@alanhat5252 London Underground doesn't use batteries though. They'd have to use some sort of grid-tied inverter in the train to export power back to the grid. Dumping DC power back into a battery is much easier.
@@robinbennett5994 At least the Dutch Railways already employ regenerative braking, exporting the power to other trains currently on the net. So it's already a thing. Just a fyi. Of course not relevant to this video, as it's a disconnected battery train. Regen should be even easier though.
Awesome sauce! Both the report and the technological innovation. All diesel trains need to be retired ASAP for air quality reasons and this looks to be one of the most viable candidates to do it with! Especially since the hydrogen hype remains just that... hype!
The GSR over in Ireland beat BR to it by some years. On the difficult ex-Dublin & South Eastern route, Dr. James Drumm's revolutionary fast charging Nickle-Zinc battery multiple units (in service between 1932 and 1949) were the forerunners of the (brand new) B/EMU Hybrids now entering service on the enhanced DART services around Dublin.
@@alanhat5252It lives on the Royal Deeside Railway. Although safe, it needs new batteries and a serious electrical overhaul. Meantime, it does see occasional use .... as loco hauled stock. Oddly, their website doesn't trumpet this unique unit's presence.
Excellent. Your final comment, giving credit to GWR for seeing it all through, is right on the money. We sometimes in the UK seem to give up just before an idea reaches maturity. Well done God's Wonderful Railway for sticking with it. And well done EEShow for keeping this one on your radar. Hoping GWR will soon roll out the idea to Slough-Windsor, Maidenhead-Marlow & Twyford-Henley as well as the west country branches. With enough range it might even do Reading-Gatwick, which is already half third-rail
In fariness Vivarail was the one behind this tech. It was them who purchased the old tube stock, them who developed the shoe system (look when it's demo'd, it still had their logo on it). They sadly went bust in late 2022 when no rail company would commit to funding this technology. GWR picked up the remains cheap and just finished rolling out the demo. They've made zero commitment to using this technology anywhere outside the demo vehicle.
@@Rick-vm8bl Agreed. The idea of reusing old D78 Tube Stock, which had fundamentally sound chassis, with modernised powertrain and systems was a good one and the interior refits were done to a high standard. There were various power options, including modular diesel, 3rd rail electric and the pioneering fast-charge battery prototype. Sadly the whole project suffered from teething problems due to not having enough time to carry out proper reliability shakedown trials and many of the units were rushed into service before they really should have been. These issues affected customer confidence and combined with the funding running out before production and sales could really get going finally led to the collapse of the business. It wasn't helped either when Adrian Shooter, the inspiration and primary driver behind the Vivarail project, was struck down with MND. After that the whole thing just lost momentum. GWR just picked up the fast-charge battery train assets from the administrators for a knock-down price.
I’m pretty sure the UK’s first battery powered locomotive was built in 1837. It had the slight issue of making the driver repeatedly pass out from the acidic battery fumes, but it’s the thought that counts.
Marvellous. I live in Lincolnshire on the East Coast Main Line and branches, where we also have lots of bridges, thus making overhead lines hard to achieve. So, battery trains is what we need, roll them out and let's get on with it.
@ZarlanTheGreen I thought there was a safety problem with the third rail, especially as we also have a lot of unmanned level crossings, with farm and footpath access.
A few years ago, battery conversion of older Diesel Motor Unit Railcars started in Adelaide Australia. They were turned into hybrids by removing one of the two engines, and replacing it with a battery. It is hoped that in the future a two-car-set, which used to have four engines, will be able to operate with just one. Also when these are retired, it is hoped full battery electric railcars will replace them.
Were they Diesel-electric to start with? The British ones I've traveled on seem to be rebodied road-going coaches, complete with gearboxes & propshafts.
@@alanhat5252 Yes they were, with the twin diesels driving generators to provide electricity to the bogie motors. With their new batteries, they can now take advantage of re-gen braking. In my non-expert opinion, the train shown in this video looks to be a better system. Maybe this, or something similar, could be used when our hybrids are eventually replaced. I will be watching future Fully Charged shows with interest.
What about the Battery electric train that operated between Aberdeen and Ballater in the late 1950's through to the mid-1960's? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_BEMU
That old D stock TFL train was re-purposed by Viva Rail to run on the Bedford to Bletchley line. (Soon to be East West Rail). Viva rail went into administration and sold out to Great Western Rail. However it’s great to see the battery electric train concept has been kept alive and well. Considering East West Rail hasn’t electrified the line between Oxford to Cambridge, I wouldn’t be surprised if those trains re-appear on the old varsity line once EWR completes.
We have no overhead lines from York to here in Scarborough, whereas the rest of the line from York to Liverpool has overhead cables. This would be great for our line.
I'm North of Aberdeen. Electrification stops at Edinburgh. Admittedly local station saw it's last passengers in 1965, and hasn't even had track since the '70s.
There isn't overhead cable from York to Liverpool yet. It'll be live from York to Church Fenton soon- then it's diesel power to Stalybridge and then electric to Manchester Victoria and Liverpool from there!
This is the kind of significant major infrastructure we need in the country. No doubt a local planner will stick their foot in and object to any proposed retro fitment of these at a station!
Great - but missed opportunity - make the charge rails longer and accelerate the train from the station using static mains/battery power. That will increase range + reduce depth of discharge + increase longevity of system.
If the future trains accelerate anything like an EV car, it will be up to speed before the last carriage leaves the station, so it shouldn't be a problem. Should be little to zero chance of frying someone.
@@thekaxmaxinterlocks are genuinely ancient technology, thousands of years old, they're reliable & well understood & they're already in use on this system, it's only the timings that the OP is suggesting altering.
@@thekaxmax We have been doing this already for a century, no it's not inherantly dangerous. If someone touches those obviouly electrified rails that's on them, just the same as anyone touching the 25kv overhead lines.
Great to follow the progress of this ev train, I hope we get more of them. Does it have regen breaking, that’s got to be a good way of recovering some power?
In 2015 a single Class 379 Electrostar train was modified to run on electric lithium batteries with passengers on the Mayflower line, which connects Manningtree to Harwich International and other stations in Essex. This was a trial to enable charging when connected to overhead power and battery on unpowered sections. I have vague memories of tests being run on this line on or possibly before 2010.
Shame you didn't mention the team at Vivarail, whose business sadly went bust in late 2022. While GWR is to be commended for picking up the project, it was Vivarail who did the heavy lifting in getting this train concept up and running, and took the hit for the early prototype fails
The Viva rail staff kept their jobs and it's great that they did. But the folks who put money into Vivarail lost their investment. I hope they can take some feeling of pride that even if they didn't get rich their money did help move the idea of battery trains forward in a way that would not have happened without their willingness to invest in the idea. In terms on the impact on future generations their money was well spent, whatever their financial advisors say.
It's still potentially vapourware, all that GWR have done is the finishing touches to roll out the demonstrator Vivarail developed before they went bust in '22 & were bought by GWR.
@@jamesengland7461HS2 - High Speed Two - a now-abandoned project for a second high-speed line, this one connecting London through Birmingham & onto 2 branches, 1 north & the other across to the east coast
I do think it’s important for branch lines to do this. But yeah it’s taken a long time. Japan has been doing this for years already. And they did it with a standard pantograph system to charge, which seems to me to be the best solution, because you can set up a very short section of overhead wire at a station on a non-electrified piece of track; or you can charge on electrified parts of lines before they go onto the non-electrified part. Whereas this is quite specialised.
Yes, I was wondering why they didn't go overhead, but this was not explained in the video. The overhead solution would not require tricky timing or special software.
If only Vivarail was still around and they would have continued on converting the former London Underground D78 Stock that have been converted to Class 230 diesel & battery powered trains and the Class 484 used on the Island Line.
Did you notice that the technicians who were in the video wore GWR vests. My understanding is that they inherited Vivarial when they went insolvent. So maybe you might get your wish.
I'd love to see what technologies they trialed for the charging system. I hoped in the future we can use Magnetic Resonance charging. It has a lot better efficiency than traditional induction charging, and can be used at distances of up to around a meter. This would remove a lot of the moving parts and potentially reduce safety risks.
11:44 23,4km traveled, power went from 84% to 70%. 14% of 504kW battery with ~20km traveled = 3.5kW per km. 9:00 71+55 miles range. 504kW battery = 2.5kW per km. Class 230 train has a capacity of 296 passangers. 8W per km per passanger Electric bus Enviro400 does around 1.3kW per km. Capacity 100 seats. 13W per km per passanger Electric passanger car does 0.1kW per km in this low speed, 5 passangers. 20W per km per passanger It is really kind of linear :)
I'm sure this has been tried before in the UK.In the late 50s battery electric trains were tried between Aberdeen and Ballater,before Beeching chopped the line.
@@rolandharmer6402I believe one of the Battery Multiple Units is being restored at Deeside Railway.They run a short section of the original rail line between Crathes and Banchory.Maybe Fully Charged could have a look at the great grandad of this new train.
Good to see progress being made. It provides another option with battery prices reducing and solar panels forever getting cheaper too one can see all sorts of interesting things being done.
Interesting how we are building this from scratch whereas other countries are outsourcing the work (e.g. Ireland recently ordered 155 BEV trains from Alstom in Poland).
Actually: that train we saw was not built from scratch: it is a re-purposed London Underground train ("D stock" in the jargon). Before it got the batteries it had already worked a full service life as an electric train on a fourth rail system. The motors and batteries were new, but the basic structure is the train has been re-used after the end of its first life. Very eco: reduce then reuse before you recycle. 😊 (Fourth rail? Yeah, but why the London Underground has two current carrying rails is completely off topic here...)
@@alanhat5252 yes and no: No because in Victorian times there were several locos powered by lead acid batteries. The fumes from said batteries were not entirely healthy for the drivers. Throughout the 20th century there were sporadic attempts to build battery trains, in the UK and elsewhere. Yes because the 777/1 on Merseyside were (in my opinion at least) the first to have really got the battery tech working sufficiently well in normal operating service to count. If you are a train enthusiast it's worth taking the Merseyrail to Headbolt to see if you can notice when the train runs out of ground power and goes into batteries. Looking out of the window for the third rail is cheating!
And in my opinion, although the Vivarail investors lost their company, their money went to a great cause by moving the tech forward. That may not have been meant as a noble thing for them to do, but it's none the less effective in terms of addressing the climate issues.
Actually I think Merseyrail were first. The Headbolt Lane station on the Kirkby leg of the Northern line was built beyond the termination of the third-rail network, and they didn't want to extend it. Trains on that line now all have batteries on board so they can run to that station, and have been since October 2023.
First in recent times. As others have commented, battery electric trains (with lead acid batteries) were a thing briefly in Victorian times. This is the rebirth rather than the birth of the idea.
I am glad to see the old Vivarail trains are getting some new life. I never knew that they were going into administration, and one day I went to take a journey they normally provided, and it was a replacement bus! Thankfully the line is open again with another operator.
Hardly the first battery electric train in the UK. BR had a battery train in Scotland in the ‘50s or early ‘60s and the London Underground has had battery locomotives for goodness knows how long-
This is a very good idea and I hope it succeeds. A bit like the tilting train which was developed long ago which only worked about once on a journey from Glasgow to London and ended up in a siding at York Railway Museum I hope this has a more successful future. The other thought which has crossed my mind is. A train could have a pantograph to draw electric from the overhead line that could work for say 20 miles and that would charge the batteries and then for the next say 30 miles there would be no overhead wire and the train would just run on the batteries. Thus rather than electrify say 50 miles of track you would do a portion, saving money. "Saving money" for an organisation which spends £100 million on a bat tunnel is probably be going to be a very difficult idea to understand, but I hope others can translate that phrase for anyone reading this in the rail industry.
Faster than diesel that can’t reach the terminal speed. Cool! Did I miss something on regen braking? Seems obvious to me given the mass of a train. Perhaps I was sleeping awake if it was mentioned.
All modern trains are electric driven, the fossil just turns an alternator and a such all trains regrn brake just on a fossil one it goes into resistors on the roof fully electric goes into the grid and these into the battery. Not need to mention something that they been doing for nearly 100 years
I guess my main question is why traditional 3rd rail (which use the track itself as the other electrical connection) or overhead lines for charging, both of which are plenty adequate (>300kw) and well developed, familiar, proven-reliable technologies.
@@simhedgesrex7097 Howso? You'd still only need them at the stations where you're doing the charging. A hundred feet of third rail or overhead wire can't possibly cost more than developing an entire bespoke charging system. Maybe you misunderstood; I'm not saying they should electrify the entire line - of course that would be crazy expensive, which is why it hasn't been done yet. I'm saying use existing electrification technology to make the charging connections.
@@Smidge204 Ah, it was your use of "traditional" that threw me off. Certainly innovative overhead charging in stations is an option. I don't know why they didn't select that - certainly there are trains that do charge from overhead.
There's a national rail ban on building more third rail 750V DC infrastructure, as its viewed as too dangerous (exposed live conductors, etc). The stuff that is already there has "grandfather rights" but they don't want more of it.
I wonder about the benefit too, especially when you can see existing overhead wires at West Ealing station at 12:45. Claude-ai and Microsoft Copilot agree 25 kW says overhead wires can deliver 6-10 Megawatts thus recharging 600 kWh of batteries in as little as 3.6 minutes, so the problem isn't power delivery. And these electrified rails are so short that they can't supply power to the train while it is slowing down, nor while it is accelerating out of the station which is when it is consuming the most power. The presenter (Imogen Bhogal I think?) should have asked about this and also asked about regenerative braking. By the way, at 12:17 if 500 kWh of batteries are charging at 642 kW, a 10-80% charge will take 32 minutes, not 3.5. ??!?
I’ve just been on the metro in Paris with my wife and some of the trains operate autonomously, without a driver. Will these new EV trains also be operating autonomously because that’s where the real saving is.
I think that battery powered trains is probably going to be the best option to replace diesel trains that are over 30-40 years old and do need replacing at some point in few years. Including the Class 165 and Class 166 which are most likely going to be sent for scrap.
Great long story and the train will be so much better than the rattling old diesel trains. One thing you didn't mention, and I hope it has it, is recharge braking. Please say that it does.
Again, it’s the power storage that could be the winner, GWR will surely pay very little to charge them. Just what the grid wants. Same for all light / heavy industry EVs. Then with removal of overhead cables. Wins.
This would be wonderful for strictly passenger rail tracks (if it's running cargo as well, then the traditional electrification is the way to go), especially in combination with solar canopies over platforms. Does that train not recuperate when slowing down or did I miss something? If not why? Even diesel-electric trains use their motors to generate electricity and dump it into resistor banks (heat) to slow down just so they don't have to wear down the brakes as much... The only logical reason to omit the regenerative braking in this case specifically is to stress-test the charging as much as possible, but that would make no sense to omit it from the final product.
Mind the gap! Given how quickly battery costs are dropping, fully electric battery powered trains could wind up being cheaper than either third-rail or overhead-powered trains in the near future for commuter travel. A lot of cabling, transformers, and related maintenance could be removed outright Potentially hundreds of miles worth. I do think the charging mechanism could be done a bit better, though. Even though there would be no need for long third-rail runs, the third rail mechanism itself is very well-proven and implementing it just around each station area to deliver the charging power would not represent much of a cost. And it would also allow the train to maintain charging for at least 60 additional seconds if not longer. -Matt
I’m suitably impressed at the speed this has been developed considering the industry - I suspect however that once adoption and standardisation starts to get in the way it will be at least a decade away before widespread deployment - I may be mistaken though as maybe each operator can “do their own thing” and the demo should be enough to make it happen for GWR if the powers that be want to 🤷♂️
When the Isle of Wight got their new rolling stock, the same in this video, they were tested using batteries as they were also upgrading the power rail. Mind you the batteries were in the passenger carriage. So don't really count. 😂
It would be interesting to know how much more expensive it would be to also use existing electrified infrastructure where possible? Or are these battery trains solely used on rural branch lines that don't ever even partly operate on areas where there is 750V DC third rail that easily could provide megawatt level power or 25kV 50Hz that can easily provide even ten or more megawatts?
Yes, you can see existing overhead wires at West Ealing station at 12:45, so what's the benefit of introducing a new mechanism to supply power? And these electrified rails are so short that they can't supply power to the train while it is slowing down, nor while it is accelerating out of the station which is when it is consuming the most power. The presenter (Imogen Bhogal I think?) should have asked about this. She also should have said whether these retrofitted trains have regenerative braking' GWR's press releases don't say.
Great to see this technology coming to trains, 2 stats I'd like to know are, how many kw / mile does it use on the average journey? (I'm assuming it's more than 1 :) ) and how much power do they get back from regen braking?
Why are you happy to see a technology come to trains, that is inferior in every way, to overhead lines and third rails? (the instances where overhead lines are problematic, using a third rail solves those issues)
You can add an induction loop, when the train arrives a little late, instead of 3 minutes charging, only 1 minute charging available 😮, but as the shoes are close to the line, they begin charging, as the shoes leave the line they are still charging, maybe, an extra 20 seconds of charging???
@@andyroid7339 You do? Really? I'd have thought it was blindingly obvious, that battery electric trains are far more expensive (long term. The initial setup is cheaper) and inefficient. It requires more power, due to higher weight, more maintenance, due to more parts... (including more moving ones, as well as batteries that degrade a lot) There is no possible situation, where it makes any sense, to power trains with anything other than overhead line or, where there are issues with those, a third line. She mentions tunnels and branch lines being expensive to use overhead lines on, but it's even more expensive, in the long run, to use batteries. Not to mention, that you could just simply use a third line to solve the cost issue, instead.
@@ZarlanTheGreen Thanks for your speedy reply. So why then, if what you say is economically true, is there this research? Regarding use of a third rail - how would this be guarded to prevent straying pedestrians and animals from electrocution? How would the maintenance costs of a third rail in open country (i.e. not in a protected u/ground environment) stack up? What are the economic electrical losses of operating either third rail or o/head line options? Note too that these batteries will be recyclable, some of the cells of which may end up in the trackside container units. Further to this, when there is a glut of wind energy, these units (train and container) will be used to store charge and even possibly release it when prices are higher and demand increases. I'm looking forward to your response.
They should implement this on the Sittingbourne to Sheerness branch line. They could also trickle charge the battery reservoir from solar PV panels laid on the track between the rails and with trackside wind turbines.
No, they should use overhead lines or, if there are problems with that, a third rail. There is no case, where any other way of powering a train, makes any sense.
@@ZarlanTheGreen The cost of third rail or overhead is prohibitive for long stretches of track. Remember that black hole in the government finances. Eliminating polluting diesel as fast as possible should be the goal for better air quality, especially at stations and where the track runs through urban areas.
@@richardbrice6535 There are tons of countries all over the World, with tons of tracks with overhead cables, and they all manage perfectly fine. As for flooding, what's the reason for mentioning that?
This would be ideal for the proposed restoration of the Portishead-Bristol line. Is there a reason that the battery pack couldn't be under the platform? Then convert the Avonmouth-Bristol line.
The obvious problem with running trains 'online' is that their peak demands are whenever their peak demands are. UK isn't like other countries. We have colossal VRE potential in highly intermittent offshore wind, and no really good ways to meet undeferable demand. A country with huge constant power supply by nuclear reactors so dependent on Russian nuclear services that their leader tells us not to humiliate Putin, or by having humongous easily-controllable hydropower might be able to straightforwardly electrify everything, *but we're not them*. Storage - likely in many different forms - is going to play a key role in UK NetZero.
@@damiendye6623 that's a consumer application now. Doing it at national scale is a big job. Storage like Dinorwig can shift only about a half hour of energy from trough demand to peak demand and due to our best supply being wind, sometimes energy is expensive during trough too. Storing all our peak supply to use at peak demand/trough supply would require 1,000s of Dinorwigs, or some tech we seem to be strenuously dodging. Consumer batteries are a pragmatic choice in the absence of a well-advanced plan. We don't even have a whiff of a plan being started.
IF Hydrogen Trains cant beat Battery Trains ? H2 : you know the route, the refill points , how much hydrogen you would need vs Battery Train: you need a massive battery .. Then there isn't much hope for H2.
As shown in the video, you don't really need a massive battery. You just need as many opportunities to charge. And if every stop had a box of batteries being filled by solar/grid, and you got 5 miles each time you stopped, then you'd rarely ever drop the charge too low that things would worry. But then again, if it did drop too long, you'd only need to wait 5 mins to get it back up to charge for the next station. Although I have always said hydrogren would be great for mass transportation, I personally can see the benefits for medium batteries on routes with lots of stops. Sure, the routes between York and London that don't stop for 2.5 hours, batteries will never work there and that's the hydrogen path, but for underground routes in London or local routes, this seems far superior as hydrogen won't be cheap.
On the contrary. Some research will reveal hydrogen powered trains in use all over, particularly in Europe. That said it must be conceded that not all hydrogen trains are equal and some have had issues. Clearly some outfits are ahead of others in the hydrogen engineering stakes.
With hydrogen you throw away more than 60 % of the energy compared to using batteries losing less than 10 %. If you want to increase the energy use of transportation enormously, hydrogen would be excellent. But I don't think anyone sensible would want that.
@@ZarlanTheGreen Long term maybe, but we don't have long term when it comes to carbon emissions. We need a two pronged approach, getting BEV trains off teh ground fast (as rolling stock is replaced/upgraded) on branch lines, while rolling out overhead electrification for intercity trains - maybe, increasingly, overhead discontious electrification paire with batteries.
I didn't see any regen braking, surely that would be extremely beneficial on this system, especially with the weight of the train not to mention a fully loaded train?
@@thekaxmax no it's not. GWR's press releases don't say. The more I learn about this the more it seems it was done on the cheap to continue use of these Class 230 trains were originally London Underground D78 electric cars. That's probably why they use these short electrified rails instead of the usual overhead wires (which you can see at West Ealing station at 12:45!).
UK Rail: We can use overhead powerlines to deliver electricity to an Electric train. Also UK Rail: We have to build an entirely new system to deliver electricity to a Battery-Electric train. A more complex system with new safety issues and points of failure.
It's taken "UK Rail" well over a century to supply overhead power & it's nowhere near completed now, hence the need for this. Even if you take it from when the genuine push to electrification started when they scrapped all the steam trains it's still 60 years...
@@alanhat5252 Yes but why did Vivarail/GWR design this custom shoe coupler instead of using well-understood 140-year-old overhead wires (which you can see at West Ealing station at 12:45) to recharge? Was it just to save money converting these Class 230 trains that were originally London Underground D78 electric cars?
00:10 Imogen, driving a train in reverse, can't look "In The Direction Of Travel," and no hands on the controls. . . . . Should I be REALLY Impressed, or absolutely Terrified ? :-).
As this involves trackside components I'm guessing Network Rail are involved as well as GWR, which makes me wonder how the (some what contentious in some parts of the railway industry) traction electric supply charges are going to be applied to this train? If GWR power it from solar panels on their station do they get "free" electricity, or will NR still want to charge (for maintenance of the track side components if nothing else)?
I was unofficially, the first actual passenger on this train. A couple weeks ago, it was doing Sunday trials, with invited guests onboard. Right place, right time, I hopped on the train. When I got off at my stop, the guard was all sorts of flustered. “Does not compute, does not compute…malfunction”. LOL
Not instilling great confidence when the Grim Reaper says he was the "unofficial first passenger"
I'm glad we're getting good use out of old tube trains and this should be a great option for truly rural areas. But for somewhere built up we really should be electrifiying properly.
Now this trial is producing stat's they can do the sums to see for full electrification is needed, I would hope it's "total cost of ownership" is already cheaper than the diesel option ⛽
I would think in the right area instead of just a 1 MW of power for Train could have 10-20 MW system into local grid. Stabilize grid, cushion the charge/discharge amount for train over more batteries and make extra money selling electricity when prices are high.
I was Senior Buyer and Analyst for the company that built this electric train and others. The others went to USA. There were other unbelivable inovations that occoured during building this train. The original builder of this train is Vivarail, I actually wore one of their jackets to work today with pride. Ian Campbell Kelly was a great inovator at Vivarail. If you are train-person I can explain. But just look at the quality of the train. Vivarail should have been huge, I will not go into the details of what went wrong - just let me say Vivarail could have (in my opinion) been the Tesla of trains. Brilliant work that Dave and Julian have done - what a shame Vivarail was not the massive success it could have been for the UK.
Can you explain why Vivarail/GWR designed this custom shoe coupler instead of using well-understood 140-year-old overhead wires (which you can see at West Ealing station at 12:45) to recharge? Was it just to save money converting these Class 230 trains were originally London Underground D78 electric cars?
Also, everyone wants to know if the trains have regenerative braking, and GWR's own press release don't say.
I concur, such a great concept...
@@skierpage Good question!
Parts of the answer were given in the video but I agree that without already knowing the history this particular point wasn't covered in detail. Yes, W Ealing is on the electrified mail line going West out of London.
BUT the infrastructure you mention can't handle anywhere near the levels of current needed to recharge a train in 3 mins.
On Merseyside they have a battery train that recharges from third rail, but that train only runs on battery for a few percent of it's duty cycle.
The wires at West Ealing continue over the Hanwell viaduct, but well before then the line to Greenford has turned off, and that is not electricified at all. So unlike the Merseyside solution they would have to use about 10% of the journey to recharge a whole round trips worth of power
... Or the train could sit in the station at West Ealing for an hour between services, whereas the video did explain quite well that the goal was to return to service after only 3 mins after arriving.
The longer term reason is more strategic.
GWR has a huge number of branch lines that are similarly unelectrified, but join an electrified main line. By the time the original developers of this train had run out of money, GWR saw the tech would meet a need they have on each of those branch lines, and by then the prospects looked good that it would actually work
Due to Vivarail (the original developer company) going bust, GWR was able to buy into the success without having taken the original financial risk.
Happily, the development team also kept their jobs, but after the buyout the new management refocused the project on the specific needs of GWR and it's branch lines, because that's what they wanted from their rescue.
Other interesting ideas that Vivarail had had, that were technically just as successful, were dropped because they didn't fit into the GWR strategy. And at least something was salvaged -- in my opinion the battery train was the tech that would have had the most impact on the climate crisis, so from an eco perspective it was a happy result too
@@skierpage regarding the braking system: it's described as "electro-reactive pneumatic". I'm not sure if that means it is partially regen, or not at all. Maybe others can help unpack that terminology?
Battery trains are a good idea for unnelectrified branch lines that run on diesel as it would electrify the line quicker and cheaper than install overhand pickup lines via pantograph or third rail via running shoe.
Trains with batteries onboard are also a good idea for covering a gap in overhead or third rail systems. In these use cases the train usually picks up power while moving along, but when it reaches a gap it runs on the battery power, and recharges the onboard battery when it gets to the end of the gap.
Clearly that is a different kind of battery train to this one: the batteries can be smaller, and don't need lineside storage as they are recharged from the normal running current whenever it's available.
Use cases:
- tunnels where the civil engineering to usual overhead wiring is prohibitively expensive
- container yards, where there has to be a gap in overhead wiring to allow the containers in and off. At present this either involves use of a diesel shunter, or complicated movements to allow the train to be pushed/pulled under the crane without the electric loco also going underneath.
- historic railway architecture, such as the viaduct near Bath, where local people, listed buildings regs, and English Heritage strongly oppose the (alleged) spoiling of the historic architecture with overhead wiring.
- extending an existing electrified service without needing more wires/third rail. This was fine by Merseyrail for the extension to Headbolt. Unlike the fat charge system, the batteries are slowly recharged from the running current while the train follows the rest of its service route visiting all the other stations on the line.
What's different here is the fast charging scheme. As well as being a game changer for the kind of shuttle service been West Ealing and Greenford, this success also makes it more feasible to put money into making batteries to cover gaps into a real thing.
They are looking into the battery electrification of the Exeter St David’s route when the diesel trains come end of life in 10 years time.
@@trueriver1950Your last point is exactly what is happening in Ireland. Irish Rail put a big order for a fleet of battery trains, they will run on the existing electrified tracks around Dublin and then switch to battery to run on non electrified tracks around Dublin for up to 40km from Dublin. Greatly increasing the range, frequency and capacity of Dublins commuter rail network. They do plan to eventually electrify those tracks, but it will take years longer because of complex bridges, etc. They can then take the batteries off the train and use them as line side battery storage systems. First trains of the new fleet just arrived in the last few weeks and are starting testing soon. All very clever.
I don't remember hearing anything about regenerative braking. Was still very impressed with the range with such a small battery, considering the weight of the train.
That's a given with anything like this.
@@thekaxmaxare you sure? I'm not aware of London Underground using regen braking...
I don't think the London Underground runs on batteries 😂@alanhat5252
@@alanhat5252 London Underground doesn't use batteries though. They'd have to use some sort of grid-tied inverter in the train to export power back to the grid. Dumping DC power back into a battery is much easier.
@@robinbennett5994 At least the Dutch Railways already employ regenerative braking, exporting the power to other trains currently on the net. So it's already a thing. Just a fyi.
Of course not relevant to this video, as it's a disconnected battery train. Regen should be even easier though.
No not the first! The BEMU ran from 1958-1966 Aberdeen to Ballater and is currently being restored in Deeside Aberdeenshire.
Awesome sauce! Both the report and the technological innovation. All diesel trains need to be retired ASAP for air quality reasons and this looks to be one of the most viable candidates to do it with! Especially since the hydrogen hype remains just that... hype!
"Time tables are sacred"!!!!!!!!! Imogen clearly doesn't travel by train lol, sorry Imogen but that did make me laugh.
Leaves on the tracks or the wrong kind of snow can play havoc with the timetables.
*laughs in swiss*
Great report. I like how the progress was followed over time and I look forward to the next chapter in the story.
Sorry, but it is NOT the first in the UK. British Rail used a battery electric train from 1958 to 1966 on the Aberdeen to Ballater line.
I was coming on to say this. 😁👍
It's not like they just got rid of the train either, they shut the whole line.
Cover the car parks of every train station with a solar canopy & install EV chargers too.
and the platform canopies, which could cover all the way not just directly over the platforms
Just comes down to money
Return the railways to public ownership, then we can all benefit not just the greedy shareholders of private companies.
Has anyone mentioned Merseyrail's battery electric trains that have been running in passenger service to and from Headbolt Lane since October 2023?
I was going to post the same thing
Definitely not the UK's first battery electric train. British Rail introduced a battery electric railcar in 1958.
Can you give more details please? What class designation? Where used? Is it still used (perhaps abroad)?
@@alanhat5252 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_BEMU
The GSR over in Ireland beat BR to it by some years. On the difficult ex-Dublin & South Eastern route, Dr. James Drumm's revolutionary fast charging Nickle-Zinc battery multiple units (in service between 1932 and 1949) were the forerunners of the (brand new) B/EMU Hybrids now entering service on the enhanced DART services around Dublin.
@@alanhat5252It lives on the Royal Deeside Railway. Although safe, it needs new batteries and a serious electrical overhaul. Meantime, it does see occasional use .... as loco hauled stock.
Oddly, their website doesn't trumpet this unique unit's presence.
Excellent. Your final comment, giving credit to GWR for seeing it all through, is right on the money. We sometimes in the UK seem to give up just before an idea reaches maturity. Well done God's Wonderful Railway for sticking with it. And well done EEShow for keeping this one on your radar.
Hoping GWR will soon roll out the idea to Slough-Windsor, Maidenhead-Marlow & Twyford-Henley as well as the west country branches. With enough range it might even do Reading-Gatwick, which is already half third-rail
In fariness Vivarail was the one behind this tech. It was them who purchased the old tube stock, them who developed the shoe system (look when it's demo'd, it still had their logo on it). They sadly went bust in late 2022 when no rail company would commit to funding this technology. GWR picked up the remains cheap and just finished rolling out the demo. They've made zero commitment to using this technology anywhere outside the demo vehicle.
@@Rick-vm8bl Agreed. The idea of reusing old D78 Tube Stock, which had fundamentally sound chassis, with modernised powertrain and systems was a good one and the interior refits were done to a high standard. There were various power options, including modular diesel, 3rd rail electric and the pioneering fast-charge battery prototype. Sadly the whole project suffered from teething problems due to not having enough time to carry out proper reliability shakedown trials and many of the units were rushed into service before they really should have been. These issues affected customer confidence and combined with the funding running out before production and sales could really get going finally led to the collapse of the business. It wasn't helped either when Adrian Shooter, the inspiration and primary driver behind the Vivarail project, was struck down with MND. After that the whole thing just lost momentum. GWR just picked up the fast-charge battery train assets from the administrators for a knock-down price.
I’m pretty sure the UK’s first battery powered locomotive was built in 1837.
It had the slight issue of making the driver repeatedly pass out from the acidic battery fumes, but it’s the thought that counts.
...or from the driver's point of view the _lack_ of thought!
Hornby .
@@GaryV-p3h'Hornbys' was how mainline footplate staff used to describe the old Southern's 3rd rail stock!
The grin when sounding the horn. Love it.
Marvellous.
I live in Lincolnshire on the East Coast Main Line and branches, where we also have lots of bridges, thus making overhead lines hard to achieve. So, battery trains is what we need, roll them out and let's get on with it.
Eh, no. If overhead lines are impractical, use a third rail. Batteries make no sense.
@@ZarlanTheGreen Agreed!
@@ZarlanTheGreen This comment seems quite illogical, please elaborate?
@ZarlanTheGreen I thought there was a safety problem with the third rail, especially as we also have a lot of unmanned level crossings, with farm and footpath access.
@@SheepShearerMike Also, for historical reasons (and a little bit for climate reasons) third rail is south of London, so not in Lincolnshire.
A few years ago, battery conversion of older Diesel Motor Unit Railcars started in Adelaide Australia. They were turned into hybrids by removing one of the two engines, and replacing it with a battery. It is hoped that in the future a two-car-set, which used to have four engines, will be able to operate with just one. Also when these are retired, it is hoped full battery electric railcars will replace them.
Were they Diesel-electric to start with? The British ones I've traveled on seem to be rebodied road-going coaches, complete with gearboxes & propshafts.
@@alanhat5252 Yes they were, with the twin diesels driving generators to provide electricity to the bogie motors. With their new batteries, they can now take advantage of re-gen braking.
In my non-expert opinion, the train shown in this video looks to be a better system. Maybe this, or something similar, could be used when our hybrids are eventually replaced. I will be watching future Fully Charged shows with interest.
What about the Battery electric train that operated between Aberdeen and Ballater in the late 1950's through to the mid-1960's? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_BEMU
It should have been NiFe batteries for reliability & lack of fumes (the electrolyte is potash not corrosive sulphuric acid).
Excellent episode! Really cool to see this tech deployed, and great storytelling bridging through this timeframe, well done!
That old D stock TFL train was re-purposed by Viva Rail to run on the Bedford to Bletchley line. (Soon to be East West Rail). Viva rail went into administration and sold out to Great Western Rail. However it’s great to see the battery electric train concept has been kept alive and well. Considering East West Rail hasn’t electrified the line between Oxford to Cambridge, I wouldn’t be surprised if those trains re-appear on the old varsity line once EWR completes.
We have no overhead lines from York to here in Scarborough, whereas the rest of the line from York to Liverpool has overhead cables. This would be great for our line.
Overhead cables York to Liverpool - really?
I'm North of Aberdeen. Electrification stops at Edinburgh. Admittedly local station saw it's last passengers in 1965, and hasn't even had track since the '70s.
There isn't overhead cable from York to Liverpool yet. It'll be live from York to Church Fenton soon- then it's diesel power to Stalybridge and then electric to Manchester Victoria and Liverpool from there!
Oooh I like this. Having batteries at the station is bloody genius. Why drag it about with you? This is the best thing Ive seen for ages.
A far better solution, is to not use any batteries at all, but instead use overhead lines or, where there are issues with using them, a third rail.
But not always feasible.
@ and its not “far better” if the challenge is using cheap electricity. Commuter time is also = expensive energy time.
@@ZarlanTheGreenOverhead lines or a third rail... Genius! I bet that never occurred to anyone involved in this project. 🙄
@@ZarlanTheGreen what's the cost analysis on this?
😍😍 What a fantastic re-visit to the battery train topic. More of this stuff plz.
This is the kind of significant major infrastructure we need in the country. No doubt a local planner will stick their foot in and object to any proposed retro fitment of these at a station!
Great - but missed opportunity - make the charge rails longer and accelerate the train from the station using static mains/battery power. That will increase range + reduce depth of discharge + increase longevity of system.
Which also leaves the railes powered as the train leaves them, dangerous for two reasons. They thought of this, didn't do it for good reason.
If the future trains accelerate anything like an EV car, it will be up to speed before the last carriage leaves the station, so it shouldn't be a problem. Should be little to zero chance of frying someone.
Agreed 👍
@@thekaxmaxinterlocks are genuinely ancient technology, thousands of years old, they're reliable & well understood & they're already in use on this system, it's only the timings that the OP is suggesting altering.
@@thekaxmax We have been doing this already for a century, no it's not inherantly dangerous. If someone touches those obviouly electrified rails that's on them, just the same as anyone touching the 25kv overhead lines.
Enjoyed your presentation. 230001 was at Long Marston 9th June 2018 when I visited and was being developed by Vivarail.
Great to follow the progress of this ev train, I hope we get more of them.
Does it have regen breaking, that’s got to be a good way of recovering some power?
In 2015 a single Class 379 Electrostar train was modified to run on electric lithium batteries with passengers on the Mayflower line, which connects Manningtree to Harwich International and other stations in Essex. This was a trial to enable charging when connected to overhead power and battery on unpowered sections. I have vague memories of tests being run on this line on or possibly before 2010.
Shame you didn't mention the team at Vivarail, whose business sadly went bust in late 2022. While GWR is to be commended for picking up the project, it was Vivarail who did the heavy lifting in getting this train concept up and running, and took the hit for the early prototype fails
Theres is a comment further up stating that GWR bought out the Technology and the Vivarail team who are the same team currently working on it.
This is them, different employer
@@paulhaffenden8911"in the comments" - it should have been in the video
The Viva rail staff kept their jobs and it's great that they did.
But the folks who put money into Vivarail lost their investment. I hope they can take some feeling of pride that even if they didn't get rich their money did help move the idea of battery trains forward in a way that would not have happened without their willingness to invest in the idea. In terms on the impact on future generations their money was well spent, whatever their financial advisors say.
great video
You could hear the squeek of the brakes, does that mean it doesn't have regen braking?
Mega super cool
Robert this lady needs a pay rise. So good to see the progress into commercial use and and not just showing an episode of potential vaperware.
The EE and Fully Charged female presenters (Imogen and Helen) are the best on the channels. Sorry blokes!
It's still potentially vapourware, all that GWR have done is the finishing touches to roll out the demonstrator Vivarail developed before they went bust in '22 & were bought by GWR.
Imagine if the money spent on HS2 was spent electrifying the network. Much more bang for your buck.
What is HS2?
i know right i think that this is so stupid
True but then there would have been no backhanders from property developers for trashing all the ancient woodlands & SSSIs
@@jamesengland7461HS2 - High Speed Two - a now-abandoned project for a second high-speed line, this one connecting London through Birmingham & onto 2 branches, 1 north & the other across to the east coast
@@jamesengland7461the corruption involved is still being discovered but what is already known makes interesting reading.
I do think it’s important for branch lines to do this. But yeah it’s taken a long time. Japan has been doing this for years already. And they did it with a standard pantograph system to charge, which seems to me to be the best solution, because you can set up a very short section of overhead wire at a station on a non-electrified piece of track; or you can charge on electrified parts of lines before they go onto the non-electrified part. Whereas this is quite specialised.
Yes, I was wondering why they didn't go overhead, but this was not explained in the video. The overhead solution would not require tricky timing or special software.
Fantastic. Looking forward to seeing long distance super fast trains ie Edinburgh to London fitted with them one day as the technology develops
No need as it already has overhead wires.
@@katrinabryce what about for diversions as an when needed or when the wires have failed or been damaged by storms
@@damiendye6623the road is closed anyway when dealing with damaged lines but diversions are a possible argument.
@ We need rid of those wires. Inefficient, costly and ugly.
If only Vivarail was still around and they would have continued on converting the former London Underground D78 Stock that have been converted to Class 230 diesel & battery powered trains and the Class 484 used on the Island Line.
Did you notice that the technicians who were in the video wore GWR vests. My understanding is that they inherited Vivarial when they went insolvent. So maybe you might get your wish.
Yeah! So sad that their company didn't survive to continue this development. RIP Vivarail, but their legacy outlived them
I'd love to see what technologies they trialed for the charging system. I hoped in the future we can use Magnetic Resonance charging.
It has a lot better efficiency than traditional induction charging, and can be used at distances of up to around a meter. This would remove a lot of the moving parts and potentially reduce safety risks.
I'm not sure that if I fell on the tracks I would want to be magnetically resonated as well! 😂
11:44 23,4km traveled, power went from 84% to 70%. 14% of 504kW battery with ~20km traveled = 3.5kW per km.
9:00 71+55 miles range. 504kW battery = 2.5kW per km.
Class 230 train has a capacity of 296 passangers.
8W per km per passanger
Electric bus Enviro400 does around 1.3kW per km. Capacity 100 seats.
13W per km per passanger
Electric passanger car does 0.1kW per km in this low speed, 5 passangers.
20W per km per passanger
It is really kind of linear :)
I'm sure this has been tried before in the UK.In the late 50s battery electric trains were tried between Aberdeen and Ballater,before Beeching chopped the line.
Indeed it was, but battery technology has moved on and improved.
@@rolandharmer6402I believe one of the Battery Multiple Units is being restored at Deeside Railway.They run a short section of the original rail line between Crathes and Banchory.Maybe Fully Charged could have a look at the great grandad of this new train.
The upcoming solid state batteries are going to be a big help for things like this, twice the power density, faster charging & cheaper to produce.
Good to see progress being made. It provides another option with battery prices reducing and solar panels forever getting cheaper too one can see all sorts of interesting things being done.
Congratulations UK!!
Interesting how we are building this from scratch whereas other countries are outsourcing the work (e.g. Ireland recently ordered 155 BEV trains from Alstom in Poland).
Actually: that train we saw was not built from scratch: it is a re-purposed London Underground train ("D stock" in the jargon). Before it got the batteries it had already worked a full service life as an electric train on a fourth rail system.
The motors and batteries were new, but the basic structure is the train has been re-used after the end of its first life. Very eco: reduce then reuse before you recycle. 😊
(Fourth rail? Yeah, but why the London Underground has two current carrying rails is completely off topic here...)
Aren’t the Class 777/1 trains on Merseyrail the first battery trains?
one of the comments says 1852...
@@alanhat5252 yes and no:
No because in Victorian times there were several locos powered by lead acid batteries. The fumes from said batteries were not entirely healthy for the drivers.
Throughout the 20th century there were sporadic attempts to build battery trains, in the UK and elsewhere.
Yes because the 777/1 on Merseyside were (in my opinion at least) the first to have really got the battery tech working sufficiently well in normal operating service to count.
If you are a train enthusiast it's worth taking the Merseyrail to Headbolt to see if you can notice when the train runs out of ground power and goes into batteries. Looking out of the window for the third rail is cheating!
Worth saying that Vivarail developed the technology. GWR bought the intellectual property off the administrators when they went bust.
but importantly brought on the team from Vivarail to continue the project!
And in my opinion, although the Vivarail investors lost their company, their money went to a great cause by moving the tech forward. That may not have been meant as a noble thing for them to do, but it's none the less effective in terms of addressing the climate issues.
Actually I think Merseyrail were first. The Headbolt Lane station on the Kirkby leg of the Northern line was built beyond the termination of the third-rail network, and they didn't want to extend it. Trains on that line now all have batteries on board so they can run to that station, and have been since October 2023.
First in recent times. As others have commented, battery electric trains (with lead acid batteries) were a thing briefly in Victorian times. This is the rebirth rather than the birth of the idea.
Presumably it uses regenerative braking - which saves brake wear. I guess it shouldn't need a huge amount of charge at each station stop.
Imogen Bhogal should have said whether these retrofitted trains have regenerative braking; GWR's press releases don't say.
I am glad to see the old Vivarail trains are getting some new life. I never knew that they were going into administration, and one day I went to take a journey they normally provided, and it was a replacement bus! Thankfully the line is open again with another operator.
Hardly the first battery electric train in the UK. BR had a battery train in Scotland in the ‘50s or early ‘60s and the London Underground has had battery locomotives for goodness knows how long-
This is a very good idea and I hope it succeeds. A bit like the tilting train which was developed long ago which only worked about once on a journey from Glasgow to London and ended up in a siding at York Railway Museum I hope this has a more successful future. The other thought which has crossed my mind is. A train could have a pantograph to draw electric from the overhead line that could work for say 20 miles and that would charge the batteries and then for the next say 30 miles there would be no overhead wire and the train would just run on the batteries. Thus rather than electrify say 50 miles of track you would do a portion, saving money. "Saving money" for an organisation which spends £100 million on a bat tunnel is probably be going to be a very difficult idea to understand, but I hope others can translate that phrase for anyone reading this in the rail industry.
The old Push n Pull gets a 21st century upgrade :)
I hope they will retrofit all trains with regen braking. Great start though
Very interesting charging method.
Thanks for converting Amps to units of Kw & Kwh, which are more relatable
Hornby for public transport!
Good, the only negitive I can see would be debris sitting between the tracks & inline to hit the shoes infrastructure.
Multiple shoes at different points of the train
Faster than diesel that can’t reach the terminal speed. Cool! Did I miss something on regen braking? Seems obvious to me given the mass of a train. Perhaps I was sleeping awake if it was mentioned.
I didn't spot anything on regen braking - it would be a missed opportunity to omit it (unless it's problematic to install).
All modern trains are electric driven, the fossil just turns an alternator and a such all trains regrn brake just on a fossil one it goes into resistors on the roof fully electric goes into the grid and these into the battery.
Not need to mention something that they been doing for nearly 100 years
I guess my main question is why traditional 3rd rail (which use the track itself as the other electrical connection) or overhead lines for charging, both of which are plenty adequate (>300kw) and well developed, familiar, proven-reliable technologies.
Proven, reliable, and very very very expensive to build.
@@simhedgesrex7097 Howso? You'd still only need them at the stations where you're doing the charging. A hundred feet of third rail or overhead wire can't possibly cost more than developing an entire bespoke charging system.
Maybe you misunderstood; I'm not saying they should electrify the entire line - of course that would be crazy expensive, which is why it hasn't been done yet. I'm saying use existing electrification technology to make the charging connections.
@@Smidge204 Ah, it was your use of "traditional" that threw me off. Certainly innovative overhead charging in stations is an option. I don't know why they didn't select that - certainly there are trains that do charge from overhead.
There's a national rail ban on building more third rail 750V DC infrastructure, as its viewed as too dangerous (exposed live conductors, etc). The stuff that is already there has "grandfather rights" but they don't want more of it.
I wonder about the benefit too, especially when you can see existing overhead wires at West Ealing station at 12:45. Claude-ai and Microsoft Copilot agree 25 kW says overhead wires can deliver 6-10 Megawatts thus recharging 600 kWh of batteries in as little as 3.6 minutes, so the problem isn't power delivery. And these electrified rails are so short that they can't supply power to the train while it is slowing down, nor while it is accelerating out of the station which is when it is consuming the most power. The presenter (Imogen Bhogal I think?) should have asked about this and also asked about regenerative braking.
By the way, at 12:17 if 500 kWh of batteries are charging at 642 kW, a 10-80% charge will take 32 minutes, not 3.5. ??!?
Loved it
0:43 And 3rd rail DC in the South of England. No pantograph needed. Nice to see batteries finding a niche though.
Fascinating
This excites me far more than electric cars...smashing.....
I’ve just been on the metro in Paris with my wife and some of the trains operate autonomously, without a driver. Will these new EV trains also be operating autonomously because that’s where the real saving is.
I think that battery powered trains is probably going to be the best option to replace diesel trains that are over 30-40 years old and do need replacing at some point in few years. Including the Class 165 and Class 166 which are most likely going to be sent for scrap.
Great long story and the train will be so much better than the rattling old diesel trains. One thing you didn't mention, and I hope it has it, is recharge braking. Please say that it does.
Again, it’s the power storage that could be the winner, GWR will surely pay very little to charge them. Just what the grid wants. Same for all light / heavy industry EVs. Then with removal of overhead cables. Wins.
Very interesting
What about the new TFW trains in Wales? They are battery - hybrid. And Birmingham trams? Weren't they the first?
I liked Oxfords electric buses when i visited
This would be wonderful for strictly passenger rail tracks (if it's running cargo as well, then the traditional electrification is the way to go), especially in combination with solar canopies over platforms.
Does that train not recuperate when slowing down or did I miss something? If not why? Even diesel-electric trains use their motors to generate electricity and dump it into resistor banks (heat) to slow down just so they don't have to wear down the brakes as much... The only logical reason to omit the regenerative braking in this case specifically is to stress-test the charging as much as possible, but that would make no sense to omit it from the final product.
Could GWR slow charge off the pantograph from Paddington to Reading for the Cornwall route?
Mind the gap! Given how quickly battery costs are dropping, fully electric battery powered trains could wind up being cheaper than either third-rail or overhead-powered trains in the near future for commuter travel. A lot of cabling, transformers, and related maintenance could be removed outright Potentially hundreds of miles worth.
I do think the charging mechanism could be done a bit better, though. Even though there would be no need for long third-rail runs, the third rail mechanism itself is very well-proven and implementing it just around each station area to deliver the charging power would not represent much of a cost. And it would also allow the train to maintain charging for at least 60 additional seconds if not longer.
-Matt
I’m suitably impressed at the speed this has been developed considering the industry - I suspect however that once adoption and standardisation starts to get in the way it will be at least a decade away before widespread deployment - I may be mistaken though as maybe each operator can “do their own thing” and the demo should be enough to make it happen for GWR if the powers that be want to 🤷♂️
Thanks
Really interesting....as mentioned it has a huge potential for West Country branch lines
You need to do more research, there was a British Rail battery train operating on the deeside railway line between Aberdeen and Ballater in 1958.
When the Isle of Wight got their new rolling stock, the same in this video, they were tested using batteries as they were also upgrading the power rail. Mind you the batteries were in the passenger carriage. So don't really count. 😂
It would be interesting to know how much more expensive it would be to also use existing electrified infrastructure where possible? Or are these battery trains solely used on rural branch lines that don't ever even partly operate on areas where there is 750V DC third rail that easily could provide megawatt level power or 25kV 50Hz that can easily provide even ten or more megawatts?
Yes, you can see existing overhead wires at West Ealing station at 12:45, so what's the benefit of introducing a new mechanism to supply power? And these electrified rails are so short that they can't supply power to the train while it is slowing down, nor while it is accelerating out of the station which is when it is consuming the most power. The presenter (Imogen Bhogal I think?) should have asked about this. She also should have said whether these retrofitted trains have regenerative braking' GWR's press releases don't say.
Imogen!
I remember 2023
Great to see this technology coming to trains, 2 stats I'd like to know are, how many kw / mile does it use on the average journey? (I'm assuming it's more than 1 :) ) and how much power do they get back from regen braking?
Why are you happy to see a technology come to trains, that is inferior in every way, to overhead lines and third rails? (the instances where overhead lines are problematic, using a third rail solves those issues)
Imogen Bhogal should have said whether these retrofitted trains have regenerative braking; GWR's press releases don't say.
You can add an induction loop, when the train arrives a little late, instead of 3 minutes charging, only 1 minute charging available 😮, but as the shoes are close to the line, they begin charging, as the shoes leave the line they are still charging, maybe, an extra 20 seconds of charging???
British innovation in the clean energy and clean transport sectors, that's what we want to see.
...which is why we *_DON'T_* want to see *_battery_* electric trains.
@@ZarlanTheGreen I've got ask why?
@@andyroid7339 You do? Really? I'd have thought it was blindingly obvious, that battery electric trains are far more expensive (long term. The initial setup is cheaper) and inefficient. It requires more power, due to higher weight, more maintenance, due to more parts... (including more moving ones, as well as batteries that degrade a lot)
There is no possible situation, where it makes any sense, to power trains with anything other than overhead line or, where there are issues with those, a third line.
She mentions tunnels and branch lines being expensive to use overhead lines on, but it's even more expensive, in the long run, to use batteries. Not to mention, that you could just simply use a third line to solve the cost issue, instead.
@@ZarlanTheGreen Thanks for your speedy reply. So why then, if what you say is economically true, is there this research? Regarding use of a third rail - how would this be guarded to prevent straying pedestrians and animals from electrocution? How would the maintenance costs of a third rail in open country (i.e. not in a protected u/ground environment) stack up? What are the economic electrical losses of operating either third rail or o/head line options? Note too that these batteries will be recyclable, some of the cells of which may end up in the trackside container units. Further to this, when there is a glut of wind energy, these units (train and container) will be used to store charge and even possibly release it when prices are higher and demand increases. I'm looking forward to your response.
& Preferably publicly owned.
Ooh , I was getting ready to poo poo this idea , But really good idea for cheap lines and using cheap lecky , ( Another to the point from Imogen )
They should implement this on the Sittingbourne to Sheerness branch line. They could also trickle charge the battery reservoir from solar PV panels laid on the track between the rails and with trackside wind turbines.
No, they should use overhead lines or, if there are problems with that, a third rail. There is no case, where any other way of powering a train, makes any sense.
@@ZarlanTheGreen The cost of third rail or overhead is prohibitive for long stretches of track. Remember that black hole in the government finances. Eliminating polluting diesel as fast as possible should be the goal for better air quality, especially at stations and where the track runs through urban areas.
@ZarlanTheGreen
You obviously live in a paradise where thieves don't steal overhead cables, and flooding doesn't stop 3rd rails from being used.
@@grahamcook9289 Prohibitive for long stretches of track? No. No it isn't. It may be more costly, *_short term,_* but it's far cheaper, long term.
@@richardbrice6535 There are tons of countries all over the World, with tons of tracks with overhead cables, and they all manage perfectly fine. As for flooding, what's the reason for mentioning that?
"There are in fact already electric trains in the UK" (0:43) Whilst showing a speeded up clip of a train clearly NOT in the UK.... Oh dear!
This would be ideal for the proposed restoration of the Portishead-Bristol line. Is there a reason that the battery pack couldn't be under the platform? Then convert the Avonmouth-Bristol line.
The obvious problem with running trains 'online' is that their peak demands are whenever their peak demands are. UK isn't like other countries. We have colossal VRE potential in highly intermittent offshore wind, and no really good ways to meet undeferable demand. A country with huge constant power supply by nuclear reactors so dependent on Russian nuclear services that their leader tells us not to humiliate Putin, or by having humongous easily-controllable hydropower might be able to straightforwardly electrify everything, *but we're not them*. Storage - likely in many different forms - is going to play a key role in UK NetZero.
Batteries trackside means peak is not an issue.
@@thekaxmax Yes, that is my point. It does allow trains to defer their demand on the national supply, and to take advantage of trough pricing.
@@trs4ujust put batteries on the grid to level the peaks out
@@damiendye6623 that's a consumer application now. Doing it at national scale is a big job. Storage like Dinorwig can shift only about a half hour of energy from trough demand to peak demand and due to our best supply being wind, sometimes energy is expensive during trough too. Storing all our peak supply to use at peak demand/trough supply would require 1,000s of Dinorwigs, or some tech we seem to be strenuously dodging. Consumer batteries are a pragmatic choice in the absence of a well-advanced plan. We don't even have a whiff of a plan being started.
IF Hydrogen Trains cant beat Battery Trains ? H2 : you know the route, the refill points , how much hydrogen you would need vs Battery Train: you need a massive battery .. Then there isn't much hope for H2.
As shown in the video, you don't really need a massive battery. You just need as many opportunities to charge. And if every stop had a box of batteries being filled by solar/grid, and you got 5 miles each time you stopped, then you'd rarely ever drop the charge too low that things would worry. But then again, if it did drop too long, you'd only need to wait 5 mins to get it back up to charge for the next station.
Although I have always said hydrogren would be great for mass transportation, I personally can see the benefits for medium batteries on routes with lots of stops. Sure, the routes between York and London that don't stop for 2.5 hours, batteries will never work there and that's the hydrogen path, but for underground routes in London or local routes, this seems far superior as hydrogen won't be cheap.
On the contrary.
Some research will reveal hydrogen powered trains in use all over, particularly in Europe.
That said it must be conceded that not all hydrogen trains are equal and some have had issues.
Clearly some outfits are ahead of others in the hydrogen engineering stakes.
With hydrogen you throw away more than 60 % of the energy compared to using batteries losing less than 10 %. If you want to increase the energy use of transportation enormously, hydrogen would be excellent. But I don't think anyone sensible would want that.
Using overhead lines and/or a third rail, is waaaaay better, way more efficient and way cheaper (long term), than either hydrogen or batteries.
@@ZarlanTheGreen Long term maybe, but we don't have long term when it comes to carbon emissions. We need a two pronged approach, getting BEV trains off teh ground fast (as rolling stock is replaced/upgraded) on branch lines, while rolling out overhead electrification for intercity trains - maybe, increasingly, overhead discontious electrification paire with batteries.
I didn't see any regen braking, surely that would be extremely beneficial on this system, especially with the weight of the train not to mention a fully loaded train?
It is a given that they are using it. It's so prevalent in evs that this show stopped mentioning it.
@@thekaxmax no it's not. GWR's press releases don't say. The more I learn about this the more it seems it was done on the cheap to continue use of these Class 230 trains were originally London Underground D78 electric cars. That's probably why they use these short electrified rails instead of the usual overhead wires (which you can see at West Ealing station at 12:45!).
UK Rail: We can use overhead powerlines to deliver electricity to an Electric train.
Also UK Rail: We have to build an entirely new system to deliver electricity to a Battery-Electric train. A more complex system with new safety issues and points of failure.
It's taken "UK Rail" well over a century to supply overhead power & it's nowhere near completed now, hence the need for this.
Even if you take it from when the genuine push to electrification started when they scrapped all the steam trains it's still 60 years...
@@alanhat5252 Yes but why did Vivarail/GWR design this custom shoe coupler instead of using well-understood 140-year-old overhead wires (which you can see at West Ealing station at 12:45) to recharge? Was it just to save money converting these Class 230 trains that were originally London Underground D78 electric cars?
Actually Warner von Siemens invented the first electric locomotive and it ran off a battery. 😅
00:10 Imogen, driving a train in reverse, can't look "In The Direction Of Travel," and no hands on the controls. . . . . Should I be REALLY Impressed, or absolutely Terrified ? :-).
As this involves trackside components I'm guessing Network Rail are involved as well as GWR, which makes me wonder how the (some what contentious in some parts of the railway industry) traction electric supply charges are going to be applied to this train? If GWR power it from solar panels on their station do they get "free" electricity, or will NR still want to charge (for maintenance of the track side components if nothing else)?
Test it on the Swanage-Wareham link.
I’d like to ride that , it look great .
I’m assuming the kinetic energy of the train slowing down charges the battery
class 777/1 are bi mode battery electric, 750v dc and have been in operation for over a year already
Surprised they don't use regeneration as that would improve efficiency alot
They probably do but it would have been good if this was clarified in the video.