Master Chiefs Armor Sucks | Canon Ranking | Lore and Theory
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2023
- In this episode: We discuss the Lore and Canon surrounding MJOLNIR Armor across the franchise and realise a fatal flaw that makes Chiefs suit a poor exosuit.
Adam Savage - Iron Man Armor
• Would The Iron Man Sui...
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Adam Savage - Iron Man Armor
th-cam.com/video/0rB6L6AsBT8/w-d-xo.html
Homie posted this video just to say his own built helmet is better protection wise than the one in the game. Change my mind
I mean, if I were him...
I don't think your tier list is accurate. While the games take precedence over all other media, that should only apply to game play events and cut scenes rather than actual gameplay mechanics themselves. It's something that has been mentioned over and over again by many game developers that center around characters like Kratos, Doom Slayer, and John 117. The cannon and lore say they can do and accomplish things that would make them to damn boring or difficult to code in as a video game character. Hell, the developers behind the last two god of war games state this outright. We can also see this play out in the Halo games cutscenes where the Mjolnir armor is shown to actually be as strong as the lore states only for you to immediately take damage from a pistol as soon as the scene ends. Its just how game play works. Its not about lore or cannon, its about game mechanics and keeping the stakes high enough to keep the players invested.
I was wondering if you'd ever considered doing deep dives into "Bubblegum Crisis and Crash's" technology or setting? 🤔
While I do generally agree that the games take precedent over any other kind of lore, I think that only really applies to gameplay events/cutscenes, not the actual gameplay mechanics themselves. Yes, a single 10mm round can kill a Spartan in a single headshot in game, but in game the Master Chief can also hop on top of someone and bounce on them like a trampoline without turning them into crushed raspberries. I don't really think game balancing should be recognized lore
Also, it takes Chief multiple punches to kill a marine in gameplay, but he could for sure one-shot any human that isn't in Mjolnir with his fists.
The games would be vastly different if lore accuracies took more precedence. I like lore, but I don't really care how a weapon should actually work or how a Spartan should move in game.
@@Gat720Duaalthough i’d love to see what gameplay would feel like if it was lore accurate, it would play completely differently but it would probably still be a lot of fun
I second that
I agree.
For example, we shouldn't take it as true to the Halo universe that injured people can just walk into medpacks and be perfectly fine a second later.
Upon thinking about it more, can we really trust the gameplay? Marines in the games are fairly resistant to things that should outright kill or incapacitate a human. Like how you can shoot them with, well anything multiple times without them showing any signs of being gravely hurt
No. 00 is being pedantic. Gameplay is not lore accurate EVER. Only game LORE is accurate. Stories, cutscenes, and events are the actual lore, gameplay is not even considered for lore.
I like how in Halo 3 ODST the player can literally take more hits than a spartan in the other games, lol
@GallowayJesse I like how in Halo 3 ODST as an ODST we could beat a Brute to death😂
In the lore, even a spartan getting hit with a single plasma bolt was a big deal. It melts right through armor like a hot knife through butter
You can put multiple rounds into their face at point blank with an ar and they'll just say a witty line and carry in with their day
The gameplay and lore really contradict each other all the time. So we kinda have to take gameplay with a grain of salt and not view that as the concrete lore.
By that you mean A significant enough blow to the head can make the armor spasm and kill it's user? That actually could be feasible depending on HOW the armor connects to the wearer.
@@AKlover You are a Spartan or Elite doing it too, so that also helps to kill a Spartan with a blow to the back of the head.
@@inductivegrunt94 When two types of the enemies soldiers can generate the forces of A Grizzly or Silverback gorilla and do so in A wider rang of motion than yes. A strong human male with A hammer could probably get sufficient effect though.
@AKlover That's not something that would normally happen anyway. A Spartan is more likely to get hit with a Gravity Hammer than ever encounter a human strong enough to not run away in fear, much less actually try to fight, upon seeing the Spartan. It just doesn't happen, that is a literal impossibility when looking at the lore of Halo.
no it isnt you just watch too much game theory
@@AKlover
The whole gameplay thing doesn't matter and I mean it's called gameplay balance. Shoot a Spartan a few times in the foot and they'll die. If you're saying that then that means a marine to take a plasma bolt to the face and did not die which means Covenant weapons are actually extremely weak. Gameplay is not Lore. because like I said above that means Covenant weapons are so weak that they can't even kill a single Marine would shooting them in the face do when in the real Lore it takes their face off and kills them. If gameplay is Lore than that means the spirit of fire can actually revive the dead by throwing a magical healing Circle and master chief actually has the ability to respawn and Marines actually have unlimited ammo
Can't forget the fact that in Halo 3: ODST the Rookie can flip a tank over barehanded without augmentations or powered armor
Mmhh. It doesn't matter because all of the Whowouldwin types love that. No one expects a marine to take plasma shots, just because they take them in game. You are using one extreme to justify your position. But as for the shields and armour?
The unsc gets clowned all the time for using traditional bullets etc, yet everyone and their mom will say "it's the future, propellant tech etc will have improved". Well Spartans in game (multiplayer) are getting shot with these same rifles, that have armour piercing bullets etc.
For Spartan armour and shield strength id go by the game, you are getting shot at with these supposed futuristic bullets, so they will do more damage, unless the whole future unsc ballistics being better than today's bullets is all shit? Which one is it? Multiplayer gameplay all day for how strong mjolnir and its shields are. TV show for how plasma hits marines and humans. It's not hard.
also if the Armor as as depicted in lore the game wouldn't work. none of the small arms would work on a Spartan like attacking a full plate knight with tooth picks.
@@nihilityjoey but if that's the case then what's the purpose in spending all that money for power armor that originally isn't even shielded, if it can't even stop a bullet from a pistol that would mean that it's a billion dollar investment neutralized by literal pennies, makes zero sense to field power armor that isn't even bulletproof, complete waste of money
Eh, to be fair the UNSC's protection improving a lot by the end of the war is both logical and in the lore.
What do you have against the Mark 9000 face implants?
Until a Spartan dies from a sidekick in a cut scene I think this is just a gameplay thing. As for he Needle rifle the blamite or the way the gun fires might have some properties that explain it we don’t exactly know.
Kat was shot through the back of the head-- where the Air Assault helmet has a large area where it looks to be the same material as the armor techsuit and nothing else.
@@knightofarnor2552The Air assault helmet, much like the ODST helmet is an design in regular military service, which was then modified to be compatible with Mjolnir armour.
I would assume that such a helmet would be composed of regular marine armour material and be relativley weak compared to a solid Mk4/5 helmet designed for the Mjolnir platform, and therefore not nearly as resiliant to damage, since it must be light enough for an unaugmented human to wear unsupported.
Most ballistic helmets today cannot stop a full power rifle round, and dont even try to, they would be far too heavy to be practical.
I believe that is simply another inconsistency. a needle round was stopped by a regular marine helmet in the books, only doing real damage after exploding and killing the marine. marine helmet armour is notably much weaker and thinner. as far as my personal idea of canon, games take the least precedent for all things gameplay and certain story points made for the lore. they only hold first place for overall story arcs and events. bungie really just wanted it to have a sudden, brutal impact on the player. having Kat get shot for 10+ seconds with covenant beam weapons wouldn't have elicited the same reaction at all, so they went with their "rule of cool" sort of thing.
@@knightofarnor2552 even then, it was stated that that was also leagues above any modern iteration of bulletproof armor, after being tested against higher caliber rifles. more than likely a use of "rule of cool"
@@patrickmballin I belive they intended it to be a beam rifle shot, but the weapon wasnt in game since they tried to nerf Jackal snipers.
The focus rifle wouldnt have worked obviously for the shot so they chose the needler rifle as the next best thing.
I will say as a counterpoint to the "in-game" mjolnir strength, its strictly for gameplay reasons. Because if we are going by the video games being the highest tier of "canon", Chief literally eats up to 3 gravity mace strikes from atriox and doesn't die with only his shields broken in the first cutscene of infinite. So it just super inconsistent cuz in multiplayer one hammer strike is death for a whole squad lol
Gameplay feat that is in no way even close to canon; you can flip an old style Scorpian tank back upright. That's lifting over 50 tons.
Unless it's multiplayer and desync is in a "F you and your connection!" mood. Sometimes the hammer is a one-shot from across the room, sometimes swinging it into what looks like direct contact with the opponent only takes off part of his shield.
I'm really starting to suspect the reason we don't have a grifball mode yet is because the hammer's performance over PvP networking is too inconsistent, and 343 figures releasing grifball would just lead to a bunch of grumpy players.
@@dustinbragg1921 I'm actually genuinely curious now how much a spartan could lift with their armor on.
@@kelleren4840 Depends on the Spartan and the armor permutation they're wearing.
@@kelleren4840 I forgot which book/comic it was, but there was a part where chief held a pillar that weighed numerous tonnes, i cant say an exact number but it stated it pushed the mjolnir armour to its full limits. It might have been 100+ tonne pillar and spartans can actually flip the 66 tonne scorpion
I think you need to adjust your Canon Tiers to have the Multiplayer and certain games’ legendary ranked at below Tier 3.
We know that the Multiplayer is often explained away as holographic war games, situational training & preparation. We can assume there are certain defenses and liberties taken in them, as Spartan IV’s & III’s shouldn’t be killing each other. So, it’s possible that the balancing to ensure Spartan survival/safety in such training is such that certain strikes are marked as “kills” despite not realistically causing much damage to that Spartan in a real combat scenario.
We also can assume that some level of liberty has to be taken in gameplay difficulties which are unrealistic. In Halo 2’s Legendary, the Master Chief can endure less hits than any other entity save for the Flood Combat Form. Now we *know* this is wrong, because in no other game is he that brittle, even without shields. So, we can assume that H2 on Legendary is at least partially inconsistent with Tier 1 canon.
Gameplay is not at all considered canon ever. 00 is being pedantic.
the Halo sniper rifle is not 50 cal (12.7x 99 mm), its 14.5x114mm , so 57cal. as is the Denel NTW-20, its real world inspiration.
That's a lot (30k joules) of kinetic energy... Assuming they still use nowadays ammo loads.
They use Anti-Tank Rifles as regular sniper rifles.
@@Azem14_69 to be fair Elites are comparable to armed infantry.
@@Azem14_69 They are only anti-tank in WWII context, modern tanks will laugh at it.
@@libertyprime1614 how bout anti-materiel?
I kinda hate that the games always take precedent when it comes to canon, they are games and they're designed as such so of course the ultra-powerful mjolnir armor would seem way nerfed in-game, because otherwise it wouldn't be a very fun game.
I am pretty sure, at least with the Bungie games, really only the story and mission design of the games took precedence over the books. That’s what I would argue at least, game balance is made for the reason of making it fun to play…at least trying to anyway.
I always thought the fatal flaw in the Spartan armor was the back, how the Spartan might still be alive and fighting but if he takes enough damage in the spinal area the suit will fail and malfunction
MJOLNIR actually has a mechanical spine for that reason.
@@admiralmurphy1543 I see. The fatal flaw in Spartan armor might be its vulnerability to shock weapons then. But zero zero makes a good point that it is the helmet.
Pretty much anything will fail to do its job properly if it takes too much damage. It's not really a flaw in the design, just the natural consequences of taking too much damage.
And if a Spartans armour ever got to the point of failing, chances are that luck wasn't on their side and they're in a situation where they probably weren't going to survive anyway.
Not really not a single spartan has died that way
@@bladetheatrics your right, I was just thinking of the non augmented human test subject and how things went bad.
The games have never been the cannon for me. Obviously MC doesn't die and respawn if Halo was IRL. The true story has to be drawn thru the limitations of game development. BUT the books have no restrictions. Thus hunters can actually be 12 feet tall and very dangerous and not comically small so they can fit thru all of the copy pasted doors in the game.
Strictly speaking, he doesn't "respawn" regardless (outside of coop, of course). No matter how many times you die and go back to a checkpoint, from his perspective it's all just one continuous successful run.
Personally, I justify it as him thinking ahead and planning out which moves to take in advance. Any failed attempt is a plan that didn't work, while the successful run is the plan that worked.
Funnily enough, this actually matches how the AI from 3 onwards works. All games after 2 use a deterministic AI, which means that if you make the exact same moves with the exact same timing, the AI will always respond in the exact same way.
I'd love to play a game where the Mjolnir armor functions as intended.
That would be pretty OP. But we'd basically be playing on heroic by default.
That exists, it’s called WarHammer….someone should make a mod.
@@PolymurExcelThe Warhammer games dont even do the space Marines right, led alone the Spartans.
Id love that. It'd basically be a halo quake mix.
@@GiRR007 Which is why ID should take over halo. Imagine if doom had vehicles and lot's of blood and gore?
I always thought the books were the highest pevel of canon, given that's where the most details in terms of lore can be expanded and shared with the audience.
I believe it’s always has been games > books since the Bungie days
Honestly that should be how it is, because games are always developed with gameplay in mind, not canon accuracy
@@betelgeuse_99 exactly. Especially because the game's story mode, which is what handles the canon events, all can be played on 4 different difficulties with varying levels of damages and resistances
Games > books > etc, the games rewrote the canon (such as halo reach) in some places, making them the main canon for the most part
@@betelgeuse_99The problem is that the books are contracted out to random authors. And so they aren’t even consistent with each other or any kind of cohesive story. So to make contract work the focal point of your canon is nonsensical.
The problem is autism. And I’m not saying that to be mean or insulting. But like if you can’t parse through and contextual games in a manner that is reasonable and makes sense due to you having autism then I’m just sorry. Like if seeing multilayer gameplay that contradicts canon bothers you, that’s just your autism being unable to contextualize things
Im a fan of the mutiplayer mechanics not being the "canon" especailly that theyre meant to be simulations and when a spartan "dies" its their suit seizing to represent them dying in combat as a training tool
Pues lo siento pero por ley los juegos son el canon
@@anthonyortiz45The events of the games are canon, not the gameplay. Kinda like how WW2 games are based on historical events but the gameplay is obviously different. Obviously Halo is fictional but it's a close enough explanation without needlessly making this comment longer.
As a real life gun guy and gear guy this Kind of just blew my mind. To put this in perspective, a standard infantry helmet of most first world armies. Can take a direct hit from a 9mm and the user survive. With that said I really like Halo's game play so I wouldn't change a thing.
Yeah, otherwise we’d just be playing a WarHammer game….actually, Master Chief playing like a Space Marine sounds awesome as fuck actually.
@@PolymurExcel Warhammer 40k games (and lore by extension) are at least slightly more excusable since all of their weapons fire big AF or strong AF rounds. Even basic stub weapons are on grades similar to .50 BMG instead of .556. Lasguns, jokingly known as the weakest weapons in the setting, can blow off the limbs of unarmored humans at their lowest power.
This also presents a weird conundrum between both franchises. In Halo games, a Spartan can be killed by a 10mm round. In Warhammer tabletop, a Space Marine can be killed by one to two shots from any weapon, depending on which edition of rules you use. Keep in mind that Space Marine power armor follows a similar description to MJOLNIR as being basically impervious to small-arms fire
I thought this was going to be about the fact that you can't casually put the suit on and take it off all by yourself without any mechanical assistance.
I will mention one little detail, the sidekick is meant to replace the magnum, only problem is that the magnum fires 50 A.E. and 343 coded the sidekick to do similar damage as the magnum to "replace it" when the sidekick fire a significantly smaller bullet. However the magnum does exist in infinite, just on dead marines in the campaign or in forge.
A correction as the Magnum actually shoots 12.7x40mm which is closer to 50 Beowulf or 500 S&W. So even more ridiculous
@@lupusebrius It's enough to pen spartan armor, same as elite and brute armor, which so many people think that spartan, brute and elite armor is now super weak thanks to 343 basically replacing them with a pistol that pretty much fires a 9mm (I know it fires M135 10x31mm SAP, but it's still small! Really small), there was a reason the human covenant war was going on and humanity was losing, because normal guns weren't good enough to pen their armor and shields until spartans came into the mix and evened the battlefield.
Things to consider. The 10mm bullets are 10x31mm Semi-armor piercing. Their cases are roughly 6mm longer than real-life 10mm auto. I imagine they would have a decent amount of extra velocity compared to standard 9mm or 10mm with the extra propellant. 10mm bullets (the tips) aren't really that small either.
Though it would be significantly easier to argue if they kept with the M6G that shot 12.7x40mm instead.
I generally find this to be a problem with most "armor" in games. In most cases it is flat out ignored what it SHOULD do, on a technical level based both on material properties, shape, weight, etc, and what it does in game from a mechanical and balancing perspective. As far as Halo is concerned, I'd figure the games have lore authority over timelines, events and characters, but as soon as you gamify stuff it loses lore authority to other sources.
Like one of the only games where I’ve seen body armor behave realistically is Ready or Not. One of the few shooters that I’ve seen where a guy can take a round to the helmet and still be conscious.
@@PolymurExcel I've heard good things about Ready Or Not but I've yet to play it myself. It's on my game bucket list, though.
I've had this exact discussion, but in reverse for a couple of months in the YT comments regarding an extremely silly and lore breaking cutscene in the Blue Shift HL remake mod.
It boils down to that for this cutscene the character grows super human strength while another becomes extremely fragile. All while playing it off as they're all regular humans.
Just as the characters should not have abilities they can't possibly have in lore inside cutscenes, the abilities they have in gameplay doesn't necessarily reflect the lore.
Case in point: if a marine were to be shot in the face in gameplay and live, that's ok. He's still lorewise a regular marine. If he were to be shot in the face and live during a cutscene, he'd be a god among men and break the lore.
I think even the scene with Kat was more of a "rule of cool"/shock sorta thing for the audience, used to progress the story. it was shown in lore at one point in a book that the chief had a 21st century era 50 cal pistol pointed at the back of his head, without shields, and wasn't worried about the armor even getting dented or damaged. Kat's death was more for the shock and abruptness, and would decimate any other lore relating to mjolnir, even modern helmet statistics, if it was truly the highest canon to have it bypassed by a ~9 mm round.
As others have said, video game balance cannot be taken as lore. It's meant first and foremost for gameplay. There's no distinction between a glancing blow or hitting the visor, etc. Video game cutscenes and such would be useable.
I once made a custom Halo Reach firefight called Lore Accurate.
Increase speed, hugely increased spartan physical and weapon damage, but slightly slower shield recharge and much weaker shields.
I was very pleasantly surprised by how fun it is. You're hugely overpowered, mowing down enemies while zooming past and through them, as long as you kill them fast enough, since you're a glass cannon. Constant repositioning and tactical killing is needed to not be swarmed. You feel the mix of power when your shields are up, and fear when they're down. Very high paced, very fun. Feels almost exactly like the run from the Halo Legends episode The Package.
I honestly would love a lore accurate gameplay mode where you're zipping around the map at an easy 40+ mph, smashing through a battlefield-style, fully destructible map, and are basically a micro-kaiju.
Seriously, imagine firefight like that? Would be absolutely awesome.
I always assumed the fatal flaw was the huge armor gap in the midsection- YEAH I KNOW, LIQUID CRYSTAL, but it's still just techsuit vs techsuit with layered armor on top. One energy sword slash without shields and you're bisected. You can make an argument for the gloves but even those at least get a little square of armor on the back of the hand. Your tummy remains *exposed.*
agree, but I've always found it stupid how most Sci-Fi armors ignore the mobility of the torso, few find a balance between protection and mobility.
Although to be honest, the torso space in GEN III is more reduced compared to GEN I and not to mention GEN II, whose designs seem to be focused on being "cool" and not true armors that provide protection to the user.
@@insertenombreaqui4183 stuff like that is why Samus's armor (pre Fusion, tho I adore Fusion and Dread's suits too)- sure it's bullshit unrealistic space bird magic sci-fi, but that flexible solid metal torso goes a long way.
"The needles are approx. 5mm across, and we all know what they do to unshielded Spartans" *Jumpscare of Kats death*
Installation00: I'm going to construct a suit of Mjolnir In accordance with the most accurate lore and most canonical content.
*constructs a titanium helmet that has good odds at blocking a variety of rifle caliber rounds*
The games: *helmet is defeated by effectively .50 Action Express.*
Installation00: Well fuck what did I make this for?
I mean Spartan's in the books are insane compared to what the games show in gameplay, I'd say this is part of that "cool" factor bungie mentions, headshots are a gameplay thing and prob don't represent actual Spartan's armor performance. As far as Kat, she was shot by a needle based sniper rifle, so the projectile speed and type could easily have properties that could penetrate Spartan armor better than a normal round. Also, why does she have her sheilds off? that literally make no sense to me
When the Covenant ships started glossing New Alexandria it essentially had the same energy shield draining effect as a charged plasma pistol shot, except longer lasting due to Noble Teams proximity to the glassing.
The lore itself is inconsistent sometimes. Many things are up for artistic liberty at the writer’s discretion. Spartans were able to rip apart metal exoskeletons without even being in armor when they were 14, have insane reaction times, etc, yet a fully grown chief in MK3 can’t even beat a brute in a fight. If things were consistent Atriox’s head should have been pulped in that infinite fight. That’s why I think all of the action in a game should be in the gameplay, because too many liberties can be taken in cutscenes
I think Atriox actually has his own enhancements. He definitely has his own power armor of some sort. And even in the books, brutes were pretty much walking tanks that even spartans in GEN1 MK V MJOLNIR armor had a hard time taking down in hand to hand combat.
Hahahaha I can feel myself being dunked on for asking you to shoot the helmet previously lol
I agree with your argument in theory, however in practice I don't think balancing decisions can be taken as objective lore. Cutscenes like Kat having a headache make sense lore wise in that covenant ground weaponry is shown to be very powerful. But Marines are also shown to go down in one or two shots in cutscenes versus tanking half a mag in game. I'd restrict the game canon to events and cutscenes and leave gameplay balancing as at best Book tier cannon. Like sure a Scorpion may take down a Scarab, but it takes a Spartan tier operators reflexes and piloting to make that work (going off the Halo 3 Arc level where you could sneak a shot in)
The stated weight of the Mjolnir helmet in the books alone says it's thicker titanium than it looks. That, or a denser isotope of Titanium than we have today. Meaning, it should be even better than Adam Savage's Iron Man suit at ballistic protection than it is shown in the games. The helmet alone, if I'm remembering right and I don't even remember which book it's from, was stated to be like 100 pounds or around there. The recently famous Titanium Cube people were dropping on things for tiktoks and youtube clickbait were 40 pounds and, with the thinness of the titanium on Adam's suit and your helmet, that 40 pounds of Titanium would make like 4-5 helmets. So, if the canon weight for Mjolnir helmets is around 100 pounds, it'd either have to be far thicker than it is portrayed in media, or a denser form of Titanium we haven't discovered and/or made yet.
Not to down play your video, the 10mm round has more energy on impact then almost all other hand gun rounds. Almost as much as a 50AE, but not quite. It is a very potent round.
I'd say there's definitely a separation between lore and in-game mechanics. For example, the 5mm rounds the SMG fires really shouldn't do much damage at all to the titanium of Mjolnir armor, yet in-game an unshielded Spartan can be killed with around 10 shots.
Gameplay mechanics shouldn't really be taken into account for lore. If that's the case then it took until Reach to allow Spartan's to sprint and even then it's only for Mark Vb users with the sprint armor ability.
I also remember seeing a video a while back explaining another fatal flaw in the armor. Sufficient crushing damage to the back of a MJOLNIR suit is enough to kill a SPARTAN. The way it was guessed was that the sneaky melee to the back of the head or neck destroys the control or interface between the suit and person, causing the suit's movement systems to go haywire and either stop working, or worse, crunch and break everything inside while it spasms.
I always figured the multiplayer matches are training games, with the MJOLNIR being worn locks up after a certain number of hits from simmuntions.
I think it's worth it to note that gameplay is an even lower tier than the books, while game LORE is still a higher tier than the books.
This is a good way of putting it
The m50 sidekick while it does fire a small round, the rounds themselves are HVAP, or high-velocity-Armour-peircing
10mm rounds are powerful enough to take down a grizzly bear if needed. So maybe that kind of kinetic energy transfer mixed with futuristic AP rounds would be enough to pierce the thinner material of the helmet or just dent it enough to crush whatever’s on the other side. Also, wouldn’t you think that multiplayer kinda negates the lore for the pvp experience?
My personal head canon for the difference in the armours effectiveness in the lore and the games (multiplayer specifically) is to encourage the Spartans to think fast on the fly. Yes their reaction times are orders of magnitude faster than any natural human. But instincts are still part of them. You see this with regular soldiers today when they come under fire, there is a brief moment where they think “oh shit, I’m getting shot at” before training kicks in. Since it’s confirmed that multiplayer is now a simulation, it makes sense to artificially boost the power of weapons to help decrease that time for training to kick in while in the field. (Also because if it were true to the books, it would take several magazines from the assault rifle to even bring the shields down, let alone penetrate the armour).
Extrapolating from reality, 10mm is used as a Grizzly bear stopper.
In the Halo universe, Spartan IVs are enhanced soldiers with superior physical abilities, but they are not invincible. Even though they have advanced armor and energy shielding, a well-placed shot to an unshielded part of the head, or a vulnerable spot, can still be lethal. Like any soldier, they have their limitations and can be defeated with precise tactics and firepower.
Your mentioning of the bullet size for the Sidekick pistol is misleading. You're just saying 10mm, which suggests it uses the common 10mm Auto, being 10x25mm. The sidekick uses 10x31mm rounds. A 10mm Auto round isn't a dinky shot, it has higher velocity and carries more energy than a .45 ACP round, just with a slightly smaller bullet. The 10x31mm round used by the Sidekick has an even longer case, meaning the shot itself has more kinetic energy than a standard 10mm Auto. 10mm Auto isn't even standard issue today for many militaries, a 10x31mm round would be no joke.
Remember though, these gameplay oddities are done for "gameplay." It is a known thing that game devs adjust the lore to help gameplay flow.
Another good example of lore nerfing is the Doomslayer. If you look at the cutscenes of him compared to him in game there is NO comparison. It is simply for gameplay.
Great video though.
He has Plot Armour, which is the strongest known type of armour that exists in the entirety of the Halo universe.
I'm still half way through your 200k video, enjoying it, gud job 👍, gud job on this one too😊
Not to mention in that case, that prior to Halo 2, neither Master Chief, nor Petty Officer 1st Class 117, nor really any of the Spartans..... could hold two weapons at the same time. 🤔
Thank you for mentioning the fact that Halo is a game series, not that it stops the book worms from claiming superiority... Like yeah I get it, the books are nice. I love the Star Wars novels, but that doesn't make me nor them superior to the movies.
2006, I remember bringing this topic up with a friend one day when playing SWAT in Halo 2, and I just finished reading Fall of Reach and First Strike at the time. I brought up that despite being made of some really powerful materials, a simple pistol round to the brain pan (and not even through the visor) can kill a Spartan. It's particularly bizarre to think about when considering the very first adversaries the Spartans faced were humans with human weapons too. I'm pretty sure more Spartans had to have been lost against insurrectionists than we are led to believe. I've since learned to take the physics and mechanics of the games with a fistful of salt when talking about the lore.
Another humorous topic among me and friends was just how did Spartans ever go to the bathroom in suits that clearly need a whole team of technicians and special equipment to disassemble. According to Grasslands, Spartans are catheterized (another big suck factor to the armor).
Okay, look we aren’t dumb my friend, a lot of these examples are just done for gameplay. MAYBE more specifically what happens in cutscenes should be seen as tier 1 and what happens during gameplay should be below even movies
Perfect ending of a very informative video as usual! cheers
As much as I agree with the lore tier list. I also think that this video proves it’s not so straight forward. The game needs the armour to have this weakness to balance the game.
When the games lore overrides the books and shows is more about series of events and less armour durability etc.
Considering that UNSC had fight an insurgency were the forces wore commandeered UNSC Standard issue Infantry Battle Plate, which is made of the same Grade of Ti Alloy as Mjolnir.
The UNSC had to Develop a New type of AP Ammo for its arsenal of Small Arms to pierce the armour of the Insurgents, AP ammo commonly has a Tungsten composite core and also has increased amount propellant/powder in round.
You can imagine how handy this AP ammo production happening before the start of the Human Covenant war, because it would explain we are able shred elite battle harnesses with relative ease.
Kinda off topic, kinda not. The best armor Chief used was the armor Cortona designed while adrift in the Dawn. The only problem with that set I have, is his lower back is unprotected. If he turned away from an enemy shielding someone or something, and his shields failed, the only thing protecting him is a thin gel layer of armor.
Gameplay shouldn't be taken canonical. Gamplay reasons etc. This applies for weapons and movement too... Like the Sidekick is stronger than the AR or bloom, recoil...
At least H4-H5-HI made these MP games are training simulations so those kinda fits.
You know going by his logic this means the spirit of fire can actually revive dead Marines with a magical healing Circle and everything from Marines to vehicles have unlimited ammo
@@mariobadia4553 Yeah, that healing magic is one of the greatest inventions in human history.
I believe there is a massive distinction between "Lore" and "Mechanics" as yes, the Lore in games overrides the Books, movies and Series, but mechanics are to be taken with a grain of Salt, as their main purpose is to make the gameplay, the interaction with the story, more entertaining. In my understanding, the mechanics are to be disregarded if they contradict lore. Game Mechanics are beyond Books and Movies in the Lore, otherwise it would be hard to justify the Spartan literally flipping Scorpions and Wraiths so hard they do a full 360° turn for hours.
Otherwise it would imply hat the Master Chief, the Arbiter and every other playable character has literal Respawn points in every Scenario and will timetravel after Death or literally respawn in Coop.
This goes doubly for Multiplayer, at least in my opinion.
All these years of playing Halo it’s been bothering me
The lack of protection the armor has compared to the books
The way you explained everything makes sense now thank you
And well done with your armor it’s beautiful your a inspiration to us all
Something I've liked about Infinite is how it feels like we've been given subtle hints as to how much of an upgrade gen 3 is over gen 1.
When Atriox fought red team, he was basically tearing through Mark IV gen 1 almost like paper, and even crushed a helmet with a single hand. But against Chief's mark 6 gen 3 he at best only gets a few scratches in and almost no dents. The same applies to the mark 7 armours we found throughout the campaign
Another point is Guilty Spark's laser. It has so much force that it knocks Chief on his ass even with him having the momentum of running towards Spark in Halo 3. And yet when the monitor in Infinite tries to beam him, he takes it like a champ. I doubt 343 did this on purpose but it's honestly cool to think about
12:27
Yeah that armor is too valuable until a another one is made
The Helmet has an even bigger flaw.. The Interface between Spartan and Armor. Loved your video as always. I may rarely comment, but I try and watch every video.
When chief meets 343 guilty spark for the first time it basically says to him, "your armor really sucks dude, I was expecting much better"
I really thought you were going to talk about armor limiting the articulation far more than the games would suggest.
I love the "game lore" theory but I think within the "game lore" we should still separate into 2 categories, i.e. Campaign & Multiplayer. Due to the fact that multiplayer needs gameplay balance, I don't think it's fair to judge the damage done to a Spartan have the same result as in the Campaign.
In the games' Campaign, we could often take a couple more hits before we die when the energy shield was drained, and we could survive a round or two in the head if the damage is within the "Health Bar" (Sorry for bad explanation, but I think ppl will get it. It's like the health bar below the energy shield bar in Halo: Reach) ; When it comes to the Multiplayer, gameplay balances have to be taken into consideration. Even within the multiplayer, the same gun in different gamemode could have different damage output. For example, in pvp guns damage output could be like Level 1 or sth, but in pve guns could be level 2 or 3 depends on the difficulties.
It might not makes any sense but all in all, I would suggest separate "Campaign Lore" & "Multiplayer Lore" within "Game Lore", and having the "Campaign Lore" a higher tier than "Multiplayer Lore" because of the gameplay balances have to applied to multiplayer.
Love your vids, keep it up!
Well I'd say the reasoning for the one shot from a sidekick to kill a Spartan is part of the wargame simulation. It's for Spartans to practice and take their roles as seriously as possible, it also teaches them that they can die on the battlefield just like everyone else.
Loving the content!! When’s part 3 for campaign DLC coming out!?!?
tl;dr: Books can be more canon than games if a newer entry doesn't retcon the book
Information stated in game would in fact go above books. Facts about things stated in books that weren't stated in the game would go above the game as that defines the actual lore. In game information does not always count as lore-if that were the case, Master Chief respawning would in fact be canon. Books can take precedence over the games as long as a game isn't retconning that fact afterwards. And in your example, you're using gameplay mechanics as the defined canon. If this were the case, a lot of the lore would be conflicting.
Game Events should be the highest tier not the gameplay itself using that logic Chief dies as soon as he touches water
I like to imagine that the multi-player is just a simulation were the armors strength is toned down drastically to teach Spartans to be more caucus to not get shot. A thing that then doesn't make sense is that they mainly train with unsc weapons, wich they would realistically very rarely fight against...
I think it's best to disregard the gameplay side of halo as the lore as there is just to much stuff that doesn't make sense otherwise the game part of halo wouldn't be halo anymore, I mean, you can't tell me that a helmet like EVA with its massive visor withstands the same amount of force as an EOD for example, or that the SPI armor has the same amount of shields as the Gen3 platform. The games have gameplay as their main focus, so except for how the big events play out in the games, I'd rather look to the other medias for lore.
Gameplay mechanics aren’t canon ! If the Spartans had the durability displayed in books and other information sources some armours would be stronger than others. That would break the MP. There several instances in books that depict mjolnir as being highly resist to light rounds.
A way I always interpreted it was the titanum was actually stopping the bullet, but the internal systems, electronics etc. get damaged and either explode, or budge in and crush the skull, killing the user anyways. (which is another way to explain why spartans dont get bulletholes in them but the environment does)
This is obviously not a perfect explaination (I.E. Kat from Reach) but its the closest I got
On the matter of small caliber rounds penetrating armor, something to keep in mind is that it's usually velocity that defeats armor. Not mass. For example, 30-06 will generally have more penetrating power than 7.62 Nato/.308 when fired out of a simalr length barrel. They are nearly identical projectiles but the 30-06 cartridge holds a much larger powder charge which allows for a much higher velocity projectile. So, depending on the weapons technology available in the halo universe, I think it's reasonable to assume that 10mm cartridge could fire a much higher velocity round than what we would consider typical. Also, I'm not sure exactly what the ballistic properties of the Covy Carbine are but I think it's reasonable to assume that the carbine fires a "projectile" made of some sort of exotic material at very high velocity. Such that it might could penetrate the helmet with one shot.
Now that still doesn't exactly explain why an armor project like Mjolnir can be so easily defeated by a single shot to the dome from a pistol. My take is that since MP has been canonized, its all just training excersises. The Spartans aren't actually dieing and the armor is just going in to lock to simulate a kill. You wouldn't want to risk injury to a Spartan or major damage to their Mjolnir. To me, it would make sense that they would train in an environment that simulates a kill before any actual damage could occur. It would also also make sense for the Spartans to train in such a way that they don't become over confident in their armor systems. You don't want some of these Spartan IVs getting over confident and trying to tank rounds to the melon in combat you know? I don't think this would be an issue with IIs or IIIs but idk about some of these IVs
Cap would be an ABSOLUTE unit in Power Armor!! I think Caps body would respond extremely well to the suit's fusing with it! His ability to put mind over matter is complete and decided already. This armor and him are going to be pals and they will push each other to some insane feats
I wondered if April Fool's had come back around and I didn't notice, but the month doesn't line up.
Your videos are very good overall, but it seems you kinda dropped the ball on this one. You're taking the gameplay concessions required to balance the game to make it actually _playable_ just a tad too literally... the "game is highest law" applies to things like cutscenes and events, not to gameplay mechanics.
As someone said below, applying the "game is highest law" logic to gameplay mechanics would mean it's canon that regular Marines can tank plasma bolts with their unprotected _faces_ and survive.
Yup.
Chief Pretty much just Runs Default settings.
Very good points made 00, Though I must say it isn’t always the size of the bullet that matters. If you have a lot of powder behind a small projectile that sucker is gonna zing. 10mm has been a bit of a popular round here in the states to use as defense against bears. It is sci-fi at the end of the day so I’m willing to bet they have come up with better propellant for firearms in the future. I do enjoy these type of videos.
Exactly, that's why 5.56mm is so devastating eventhough it's a small bullet, the same size as a .22
The high velocity of the 5.56 allows it to penetrate much more than a .22 can
00 did a video breaking down the AR, and it was seen to have around double the power of the average modern-rifle equivalent. the sidekick has around double of a modern 9.5mm. even that wouldn't be enough to break a spartan's armor, as it was shown at one point in a book that the chief had a 21st century era 50 cal pistol pointed at the back of his head, without shields, and wasn't worried about the armor even getting dented or damaged. This was also seen early in the fall of reach when the chief let bullets plink off of his armor, just to admire how well it held up. definitely a gameplay concession.
He didn't make any good points I mean the whole pistol thing makes no sense because if we're taking gameplay into account then that means it's cannon that Spartans instantly die when went stepping into 3 ft of water
Personally I think the biggest weakness is not just the lack of energy shields, but the fact that the Helmet pops off so easily during trauma. Several times I've seen spartan helmets just zing off from a hit, or even a vehicle crash. While it's easy to bring parallels to WWII helmets and the reasoning behind why soldiers who wore them kept them unstrapped, with modern materials and understanding of energy reduction, brain trauma prevention, and extending the time to impact, wouldn't the last thing you want is to have a protective piece of head equipment go _missing_ during a crash or impact event when you would need it most?
No kidding. The thing is sealed to vacuum. It should take your head off with it.
I've always found it pretty messed up how ONI kidnaps children and turns them into super soldiers just to use gravlifts to launch boxes, forklifts, and gigantic soccer balls at them.
I feel like this can be reconciled with 1) easy mode is canon 2) multiplayer is a unsc simulation and therefore game balance is an in universe property of those simulations 3) ballistics of the far future might not simply be kinetic in nature. It's reasonable to assume there might be more going on with future weapons that increase penetrative capability to significantly breach even this titanium, or 4) Oni is messing with our written records to further canonize seemingly industructible Spartans for morale purposes, when in fact there is a much greater reliance on energy shields than the public are allowed to know! 😅
Theory: In multiplayer games. Aren't they using some kind of special rounds as they did in Red vs Blue in Rooster teeth as part of a training program.
Because same think is in Rainbow six siege where they use special rounds which are non-lethal and can cause same enviroment destruction as real lethal rounds. So maybe that is why without the energy shield is most of the weapons 1shot headshot as it paralyzis them like it did in Red vs Blue.
In the books Master Chief's Armor could withstand multiple 30mm and 50mm rounds before cracking. Realistically the Assault Rifle's 7.62 x 51 Nato round wouldn't do much of anything, even if you unloaded the entire magazine into him. And that's specified in the books as well!
I can follow you, ballistic helms can stop small caliber rounds, although you'll have one hell of a headache. Now the visor could be the 'weak' point but then there is bullet resistant glass so go figure 00 lol
In the real life, there is always an arms race between attack and defense: a sword and shield, an arrow and a plate armor, a bullet and a Kevlar, a tank armor and an anti-tank missile, a bomber and an air defense system, you get the point, whenever there is an advancement in any offensive technology, it is quickly followed by a defensive technology that counterbalance it, and vice versa.
Thus, it is very strange that the HALO game designer chose to give its main character a super-advanced exoskeleton protected with several inches of high-grade titanium alloy - even ignoring the energy shield that's a level of protection that every modern tank would envy - while limiting his offensive arsenal to late 20th century light infantry, basically a regular gunpowder and led FMJ rounds fired from weapons very similar to what we currently have, only at a slightly higher muzzle energy and slightly greater rate of fire. It would have been normal if they equipped Master Chief and his enemies with weapons like a rifle that's firing depleted uranium flechettes, hypersonic speed, at a rate of hundred per second, low-yield tactical nuclear hand grenades and RPGs (Davy Crockett-style), megawatt-class fusion-powered directed energy weapons, a micro-MAC sniper that fires a tiny metal bolt at 1% speed of light and pierces clean through a battleship armor, that kind of stuff. By the way, all of that is either technology that's behind the corner in our world, or a technology we know is well-established in HALO universe, so it would be just stupid not to use it for equipping your elite fighter.
Plus, anyone equipping a Spartan does not have to worry about weight saving (which one has to while designing weapons for a modern solder) - a Spartan in MJOLNIR could literally carry a bundle of 500 lb. JDAMs and not feeling any weight, and could throw them like little darts all around (only that these "darts", thrown by a Spartan, would probably break a sound barrier) - with that much power in that man+machine, you can even go super-low-tech and still do a lot of damage - incomparably more than what we see in the game and lore.
Sounds like alot in universe inconsistencies to lore continuity and realism. They better fix that. That Iron Man Titanium armor was pretty cool to look at the display of it's durability. And it goes to show how strong Flood Infection forms are if their appendages can piece Titanium alloys.
On another topic side of durability how strong would the Titanium alloy, Nanolaminare, and Forerunner metal be compared to the materials known as Ceramite, Adamantium, and Auramite from Warhammer 40k as armor and durable strong materials?
What coating are you using for your AR?
it's a game
and games need to be "fair"
for the npcs
I think you also need to take into account at what time it was said MJOLNIR was resistant to small arms fire. Prior to the war with the Covenant, small arms were designed to deal with human targets and materials. Copper and lead, maybe a bit of hardened steel or tungsten cores for specialized armor piercing, would suffice, and likely would have been the common threat across Human space. Fast forward to near the end of the Human-Covenant War and into the post war era, humans would have long stopped being the standards that small arms stopping power would be set to. The new requirements are now for dealing with the armor of Grunts and Elites, as well as the robust physiology of Brutes and Hunters, threats that have parity to MJOLNIR armor in one for or another. Thus, while some of the small arms might be utilizing ammunition that we might deem of minor caliber, that does not mean they could not deliver effective damage to MJOLNIR. One real world example would be the 5.7mm round developed by Fabrique Nationale for use in the P90 PDW and Five-SeveN pistol, designed to deal with body armor. In a future setting, better propellants, harder materials, and novel projectile geometries could all contribute to a "minor" pistol round that could punch through a MJOLNIR or Elite helmet at close range.
If we're going with the games superceding all other canon, then Sergeant Johnson died three times on board the Pillar of Autumn while also being able to escape to the surface of the Ring only to die again. Oh, and the Grunts heads are filled with confetti and if you so much as tap someone with a Warthog, they die immediately.
First off gameplay elements like headshots and dying in game doesn’t count for lore purposes. Only the plot, cutscenes, and lore details found in game counts. Otherwise Master Chief and other Spartans have died and magically came back from death many, many times over the years.
I understand Halo is lore bare right now and you need to make content So I get it, but I hope you like lots angry Halo fans commenting nasty things to you for this vid. Maybe you were looking to have a fun debate with hiddenexpia or other content creators to keep busy while working on your suit.
Either way great vid and content as usual and wishing you luck on your suit (can’t wait for the next vid on that).
My head canon for multiplayer is that they have the under suit and basic vests in the Wargames simulator and holographically project the armor, shields, and bullets.
Were you blinded by its majesty...
NOOO.
Yet you dare to destroy the Master Chief armour
HERESY
Small Arms usually constitute Mass Driver (Firearms, Railgun & Coilgun) with Caliber Less Than or Equal to 15 Milimeter (0.59 Inch) and/or Muzzle Velocity Less Than or Equal to 1,524 m/s (5,000 ft/s).
Personally I chock this up to the weapons in the games being amped up more than is described. Considering the UNSC makes alot of use of rail gun tech i'd imagine their guns are a gas railgun hybrid, increasing the velocity of rounds by like 2-3 times. Said rounds being denser than regular bullets especially the armor piercing rounds.
I think what would alleviate this issue is recognizing the difference between "lore" and "gameplay."
The lore in the game takes precedence over the lore in the books, but gameplay mechanics do not.
The lore of the games would comprise things like the Terminals, Journals, voice lines, scenery, descriptions, weapons, locations and settings.
Gameplay would comprise using those things. Weapons in particular have their own backstories and stats, but those don't really apply to their use in game.
The coding of the game that decides what weapons kill a shieldless Spartan in 1 hit is what decides that, rather than the described caliber of the weapon, it it's manufacturer.
Titanium armor in real life isnt invincible. It can be broken and if you shot it enough, it could. We can also assume that weapons trch has improved as well.
Ok, since you brought it up, now i wanna see an eventual collab with installation 00 and Brandon Herrera to put the helmet to the test.
this analysis ignores the rule of cool gameplay-lore divide.
which is the highest tier of canon.
headshoting as a game mechanic is cool and therefore falls under the rule of cool aspects.
ingame cutscene lore more effectively represents the gameplay seperated highest visible canonosity of halo.
on kat's headshot:
it was done with a needle rifle at a short (so full projectile energy) distance. the needle rifle shot, without a supercombine (not visible ingame) has roughly the same power as a shot of the DMR, which is a designated marksman rifle firing armor piercing bullets.
furthermore, kat wore the mjolnir mk5 air assault helmet, a sister system to the odst helmet, is one of the more lightly armored helmets, as its made for airborne troops rather than landing troops like odsts. being mjolnir, same as the odst helmet, it would likely be build sturdier and heavier than the unaugmented soldier version.
this would still make it one of the lighter spartan helmets, probably on par with EVA, and only the pilot helmet being lighter. the odst helmet and further the mainline mk5 and mk6 helmet, would outclass it in protection. this likely applies to the equaly sturdy but bulkier mk.4 helmet.
noble 6 and carter taking shots is more representative of non-marine derived helmet performance. with unshielded master chief in gen3 mk6 representing the peak of base protection performance, while red team from halo wars 2 represents the gen 1 armor systems basline. halo 5 shows gen2's unshielded armor performance in the locke-chief fist fight (which i suppose takes place in spartan time, being slowed for viewing)
This is one gripe I've always had with the Halo games. No playable spartan has ever shown off what that armor can actually do. You are basically a standard marine with a very weak shield.
I tend to agree with you, but I think we need to base this on campaign play and more specifically scripted cutscenes. Multiplayer is a different story.
TLDR: You're honestly over thinking it.
The "lack" of shields in game is due to game balancing.
Making them legitimately basically invulnerable would be WAYYYYY too overkill.
EDIT: ALSO The helmet not being super protective ballistically is fairly realistic, as the helmet that the US army, Marine Corps, Airforce, and Navy. IS NOT made to stop bullets. No helmet we have ever used is meant to stop bullets.
They are purely for bump and crash protection, and shrapnel protection.
That is the ONLY thing they are developed for.
Kevlar helmets such as the ACH are only famed for being "bullet proof" because of video games, and a few occasions where they have saved lived by catching(rarely) or deflecting bullets(more common) but this is ONLY because of the range and luck of the individual getting shot.
The famous video of the marine getting shot in the head in Iraq and his helmet stopping that bullet is purely because he was at the right range and had a huge amount of luck.
Hell it could also be chocked up to the angle his head was resting in at the moment.
The argument can't be made that the helmet is meant to be bullet proof, as there is truthfully, no such thing.
Now I understand that this is a titanium alloy which should grant MUCH better protection than kevlar ever will be capable of.
But I say again. Game balancing.
It IS a video game, and if it truly had the power or what mjolnir is said to be capable of. No one would enjoy the game.