Mike, as a divorced man let me say to those who may be waiting and trying to reconcile I am glad that I gave my now ex wife every chance. She had at least two physical affairs and multiple online affairs and would not stop. Ultimately, behind my back, she moved out of out of our home. The 2ish years this unfolded over literally nearly killed me. I ended up in the ER thinking I had a heart attack from stress. But, now at least I know I tried. If someone reads this working through things with a spouse I want to encourage you. If you succeed you have your love back. If not, through the effort you have kept your integrity. God bless.
@@stayraddad4638 Very sorry. Praying for you. It took time but in my case although reconciliation did not happen God has worked things to my good. Be strong in the Lord. God bless.
I wound up in the ER ICU with Pulmonary Embolisms and nearly died largely due to the stress and heartache my wife caused in her 4 year acrimonious court battles against me. Many false accusations of abuse, Everything became abuse in her mind, she was really only afraid of being exposed as a liar. She talked about divorce but was so divided in her thinking she never filed. It all ended when she was finally confronted with signing my divorce decree or I would bring multiple felony charges and prison time for what she had done. Now she's been remarried twice in 9 years. I had to realize she was just a Gospel inoculated Church Goer not a believer and no marriage took place on our wedding day.... I still have to take a blood thinner to keep the clots under control.
I totally agree. We, as Christians, swear to God that we have bound ourselves to this person and maintain a Christ centered life. Having to break that promise despite doing everything that God wants us to do to preserve the marriage is devastating. We feel that WE have failed. People keep telling us that it takes two, but the implication is that you must have done something to ruin the marriage. On the contrary, it takes two to make a marriage work. If the other person doesn't want to make it work, there's nothing that you can do except to get closer to God. He will strengthen you and absolve you of guilt knowing that you have made every effort to make the marriage work.
@@tonymiller8826 Family Court functions on law established based on Biblical principles for a Godly people---now used by a pagan people---its a travesty.
A big problem is that the church does not exercise church discipline and often times when it does, it is questionable wether it is being done by people who have the wisdom of God or the grace of God. Biblical Mature leadership is lacking in most churches. Pray for Gods grace and truth to be abounding in His people and leadership of His church.
I agree, I went to my elders and they did nothing, I have stopped going to the Church and no one has reached out to me, they talk a good talk, be nice if they could walk a good walk.
Yes, which is sad because what the Bible teaches about that process does not apply when safety is an issue. As evidence of that when King Herod decided go kill Jesus as a baby the angel appeared and said “get that child out of there!” He didn’t say “render unto ceaser…submit to authorities…” The angel said “safety first”. If only more churches followed that.
The danger of this is when churches are siding with the obviously wrong side! Like John MacArthurs church excommunicating and publicity shaming a wife for leaving her husband. .....who was ultimately jailed for physical and sexual abuse of the children! To this day I don't think they've ever apologized for it. And they continue to visit the husband in jail. Convinced it was a wrongly charged crime, I guess???? Cases like that, make a church not necessarily the safest place to seek help from abuse. My sister experienced that personally.
Too often in an abusive marriage it is the abuse victim who wants to leave and it is actually dangerous to go through the Matt 18 process. I also know a case where the abusive husband insisted he did not want to divorce which made the church feel the wife was the problem.
Jesus didn't leave Matthew 18 open to being merely a suggestion... Why don't we just trust his words, act on them, and let him have the responsibility of the results?
Most often when the abuser wants to stay in the marriage, it is because they are getting what they want from the spouse-- CONTROL. She is too afraid to leave probably for MANY reasons. The abuser usually has low self esteem, frustrations with how their life is going, and poor role models. The abused is their coping mechanism. Demonstrating power is this relationship, gives them the APPEARANCE of being able to control at least one thing in their lives. These "He said, She said," situations often involve collateral damage. The Abuser threatens harm to anyone the Abused cares about, even the Abuser. They often say that they will end their own lives. That sounds like it should be something you want, but the person has been convinced that NO ONE else loves the person but them and they are incapable of taking care of themselves. They hurt them BECAUSE they LOVE them so much. This scenario is in almost every situation. And if you do get them arrested, the abused bails them out. This continues from generation to generation. It's like trying to get addicts to quit. They've been brainwashed and convinced that it is their fault. If they see this pattern all of their lives, parents, grandparents, brothers, etc., they believe it. Good role models are hard to find. The church needs to provide that.
Yes. The spouse wants to keep the other pressed down. Its so sad. And as you said, the wife is viewed as unsubmissive and rebellious. When in reality she is on the verge of checking in to a behavioral facility because of the mental anguish she faces.
And that is where protect the innocent, ensure justice, stop oppression, etc come into play. If 20-30 men come over to that house and safely escort the abuse victim away to a safer place, it does make it a bit intimidating for the abuser to try to continue....
I remember sitting and watching his original elongated video on separation and divorce, and I remember him using the example of a husband continuously poking his wife to keep her awake as an example of torture. I thought that was a really good example. And I remember writing in the comments section that I had been continuously abused both physically and mentally by my first wife. We had sought out six different counselors, all Christian, and she progressively got worse to the point that she did physical damage to both me and our home. Our church was of no help, and even blamed me because I was supposed to be the spiritual leader of our home, so I must’ve done something to provoke her anger and abuse. The worst part was that she was raised in the church, and I had only been a Christian for a few years at that point. Through months of prayer, studying Scripture, and seeking spiritual guidance in my church, I had to work through this myself. Fortunately, when it was all over, my mother was my major supporter, who was the one who witnessed and lead me to Christ begin with. Looking back, especially watching videos like this and continuing to study scripture, I’m convinced that this was one of those rare circumstances that Mike Winger talks about. What concerns me though, is that in most situations, including in a lot of Christian films, they portray the husband as being the aggressor and the wife as the victim. I realize that over 90% of the cases of abuse involve the husband towards the wife, but I’d like to see someone address those situations where the wife abuses the husband. I understand it’s very rare, but it does happen, and I think that wives who abuse their husbands know this, and because it’s not dealt with in the church, they take advantage of this, and they continue to abuse their husbands, knowing that it’s unlikely that they will leave them, especially if they have children.
You are so right. I’m sorry for the abuse you went through at the hands of your wife. I had a pastor who was abused by his wife. Oddly enough, she was a childhood friend. He refused to divorce her even though cops had been called to their house because of her abuse.
it isn't 90% lol, it's much closer to even, it just rarely gets reported among men. That being said, mike's wrong here, scripture's very clear, without sexual immorality you have ZERO grounds to divorce your wife as far as the Lord's concerned. A wife literally CANNOT divorce her husband according to scripture, under any circumstance, she can only separate and remain unmarried, or reconcile with her husband. Otherwise she commits fornication, and the man she's remarried to, commits adultery. I'm not saying this to be obtuse, but we HAVE to put God first, always, his laws over our wants, it's awful that your wife treated you that way, unfortunately it would be seen as YOU being at fault if you properly disciplined your wife in these moments, this is one of the problems with society no longer being Christian. Firstly according to scripture, you can take a second wife (as long as you haven't unjustly divorced your previous wife), and i mean concurrently, so whether your wife chose to separate or not, you'd be fine marrying a second wife, obviously if she committed adultery you could still divorce her, and marry another woman also. That being said finding a Christian woman in these times, who after being raised by the worlds standards instead of Gods, who recognizes and admits that polygamy is 100% permitted by God, LITERALLY all throughout scripture, and also in the new testament, will be difficult however, since even most churches seem to have false teachings on this, reading things into scripture that simply aren't there, which is unfortunate. This leaves your only likely recourse, to separate for a while, in the hopes of reconciling and healing your marriage, since in this society bringing your wife to heel, would probably be considered some kind of abuse on your part... you could instead set up a tent or something along those lines for her (depending on the size of your property) and simply refuse to allow her back into the house until she's willing to submit to you as to Christ, as the Lord commands her to do, that would potentially be a form of discipline that's not only righteous, doesn't deprive her of her food, clothing, or sexual rights, and yet reinforces the BIBLICAL TRUTH that YOU are the MASTER of your home, YOU are the authority in your home, and this kind of LAWLESS behaviour will not be tolerated..... Anyway my brother, by the grace of God i truly hope you work a way through this, but i pray her actions don't lean you towards sinning against God, his laws always stand above mans law, and his ways, above our own. God bless and keep you brother.
I'm terribly sorry you had to go through that. I'm thankful that God helped you work it out through the Bible. Probably men are more often the abuser, but we can never know the true proportion because so much goes unreported. Regardless, I would say that it doesn't make a difference who the abuser is. If they refuse to repent, they should be treated the same.
according to a study by harvard, 70% of the time in abusive relationships the abuser is the woman the reason it seems like men are the aggressors is because we subconsciously lower the standards for women, were more willing to overlook abusive behaviors in women compared to men
@@InitialPC did they make a distinction between physical and emotional abuse? Men might be more likely to be physical, and women emotional. But I suppose some women might take advantage of the fact that "he can't hit back..."
I appreciate Pastor Mike tackling this difficult subject. I have noticed in the last few years that the term “abuse” is sometimes used rather carelessly. Not all bad behaviour is abuse, and it belittles those who have been truly abused. It still needs to be addressed of course, but is not necessarily the grounds for separation or divorce. Having grown up in a household witnessing grievous spousal abuse, I’m probably jaded…
@@shadowmist1246 yes, of course. I was being general. The point I was trying to make is that these days it seems bad behaviour is commonly called abuse and used as an excuse to not remain living under the same roof.
@@XeenMusic In any event, all semantics aside, adultery severs the oneness and hence is the biblical grounds for divorce. That is the meaning behind Matthew 5:32 and 19:9.
I don’t even want to get into this. Abuse in marriage is not normal marital conflict. When I went for help I was accused of being the unbeliever. I was told that I was the problem. My attitude was wrong. “You need to repent. I am now divorced. And living 1000 miles away. Marital abuse is a crime. And not one man being held up by gun point outside a convenience store could do to the gunman what the church does to the abuse victims. Get real church!
So true. My mom who was the sole bread winner of our family growing up was beat up by my step dad who stayed home everyday watching TV bec he couldnt keep a job. When my mom finally divorced him 13 yrs later, she was accused of being sinful bec "God hates divorce" negating the fact my mom and us were being physically, mentally, emotionally, and even spiritually abused. That so called church loved him so much bec he was "an officer in the church" and gave side eyes to my mom.
@@LAKatwoman God is Just and a lover of justice. God hates divorce, and yet He still made a provision for it, knowing we would sometimes make poor decisions and need that grace. How many generations of Israel did God divorce unto their foreign gods/sin because of their idolatry? He hates it, but it isn't His _only_ value.
Thanks for sharing this, Mike. This has been my stance for a long time. Too many want a cut and dry, black and white answer, but a nuanced, individual approach is more than appropriate. Marriage has, in many cases, become an idol, superseding appropriate Godly, Biblical Principles. I think the issues of Church Disciple (or lack of) and a bug misunderstanding of Evangelism (how Christians interact with Unbelievers) has fueled this problem big time.
It took me a really long time to come to terms with my divorce. I knew he’d been abusive but not overtly violent. I knew he’d been unfaithful as well and so I knew I had biblical reason to leave. But it wasn’t until many years later that I recognized how insidious and damaging his abusive behavior was. He had been eroding my confidence and identity and even my ability to believe I deserved love. I’d been lonely and depressed and traumatized by his behavior. He lied to me and about me. It wasn’t until I learned about narcissist that I recognized who he was and what he did to me. He’s still in some ways emotionally abusing my children but there isn’t much I can do except talk to them about it and limit their involvement. My church abandoned me when I left my ex even though some of them knew how he treated me. I didn’t tell everyone about his unfaithfulness because for some reason I was still protecting him. He told everyone we knew lies and they believed him and ostracized me. They all became secondary abusers. But I realized that they’d all been his friends and I only had a couple people who were actually my friends who knew the truth and stayed on my side. I had been so blind to how he had isolated me. I’m in a much better place, I’m remarried and happy and cared for.
Unless he cheated, you didn't have a biblical reason to leave. Jesus says, "except in the case of sexual immorality, not to get divorced" not. "except in the case of sexual immorality or narssasistic behavior."
There are two sides to every story. When my marriage was failing, my wife would make almost identical claims to what you wrote in your first paragraph. She made the matter all about my sin, used all kinds of psychology terms to label me, etc. But people who knew the situation knew that the matter was much, much deeper than "Husband cheated on wife. The end." Heck, she would even say that her church "abandoned" her because they wouldn't cater to her lopsided narrative. She left our church, rejected biblical reconciliation, told me to leave, and we got divorced. I am not enslaved to her. I repented. I sought reconciliation. She did not. My point is that it is easy to tear down the person with the "bigger" or more overt sin. I'm not saying you didn't make the right choice, but these "I'm the victim and my spouse was the abuser" stories sometimes aren't as cut and dry as we make them sound.
@@christopherneedham9584 Winger has a fantastic 3 hour video refuting that false interpretation of scripture. Infidelity is not an automatic "you're free to leave" card nor is infidelity the only reason one is allowed to leave a marriage.
@@razzendahcuben There are two reasons, You are married to an unbelieving spouse who will not allow you to stay, or will not live with you. Or there is sexual immorality. Just because of abuse or whatever is not allowed in the scripture. And just "treating someone as an unbeliever" isn't good enough to walk away from a marriage. And it definitely is not grounds for remarriage.
i'm terribly sorry that you went through that, your husband didn't treat you as he should've, which is vile and awful.... however the TRUTH is scripture doesn't permit you to divorce your husband, nor is mikes teaching on this accurate, since paul clearly says (i say, not the Lord) and then says if your HUSBAND was an unbeliever, and left you, that you're no longer bound, not that if you don't consider him a believer, that you can leave.... However paul right before that says this "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife." (obviously we know that a husband can divorce a wife for sexual immorality/adultery/fornication, but not for any other reason) however the only thing a wife can do, is to separate from her husband even in those circumstances, THAT is what scripture says. It says if you separate from your husband, and get remarried, you're now committing fornication, and the man who's remarried you, is now committing adultery, so you've now put both yourself, and him in the practice of sin from what i can tell, since everyday you both continue committing fornication and adultery unrepentantly, and believe me i take no pleasure in telling you that.... I"ll list the full verses below, i'm sorry to have to be the one to shed the lords light on this subject, since i'm sure it will grieve you to know the truth, and you've already greatly suffered, however once you know, you can then take the steps to stop sinning against the Lord and repent, and you can free your current "husband" from that sin also, by obeying the Lord thy God. Now with how messy all this is i recommend much reading of scripture and prayer, since where things may or may not stand now considering i don't know the details of your divorce, could be quite messy..... It's not going to be easy, but we can't just pretend that scripture doesn't say what it says, THESE are the Lords commands on the subject, if we choose to do what WE want to do, over what HE says to do, then is he truly our Lord? or are we going to be counted amongst the "lawless" that Christ speaks of in mathew 7:21.... none of us will be perfect, we all stumble, and the holy spirit will bring us to repentance, but we are to submit to God, and our Lord Jesus Christ in all things, and that includes marriage, and divorce. If we KNOW what scripture says, but decide "oh well, i'm going to go my own way on this one", do we truly have a heart for God? with scripture some things are easier than others to understand, and none of us are perfect in understanding, some things however are clear, and difficult, but as Christ said, straight is the way, and narrow is the gate that leads to life, and FEW there be that find it. I hope i've not been discouraging in sharing the truth of scripture with you, in fact i aim to do the opposite, and use scripture as it was intended, for correction, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. I know this will be very hard for you, but i sincerely pray you submit to the Lord, and repent, and work out in the spirit of truth what the correct way forward is in your situation, bringing to remembrance zacchaeus, who upon realizing his sin against the Lord declared if he had cheated any man, he'd pay him back 4 times. God bless and keep you, i'll post the relevant verses. Matthew 5:31-32 It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. - 1 Corinthians 7:10-16 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. To the rest, I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? Again may the Lord bless you and keep you, and guide you in understanding, repentance, and the correct way forward in this situation, as you and your husband were both Christians already when this occurred, all praise and glory to the Lord thy God, in Jesus name.
I was in a bad marrage, I had depression and anxiety and honestly wasnt a very good husband because of it even though i tried my best and several years after being told I was abusive to justify the divorce I'm now realising that she was very abusive toward me throughout our marrage and that messed with my mind in a big way. I put up with behaviour that destroyed who I was and didn't realise it for a decade. God is good though, two days after she told me she wanted to divorce after an entire year of a separation in which she implied the separation was only temporary God gave me the gift of praying in tongues which was something I've wanted my whole life but have never been able to do. Looking back now God set me free even though I fought against it every step of the way.
It can be rough in the moment, but God uses even sinful people in their sin to accomplish His purposes. God used the sinfulness of pharaoh - to protect Israel from other nations. God allowed a bunch of people to listen to slander about me - because He wanted to protect me from being under the authority of a false teacher.
Tyrant, intrusive, enmeshed in-laws makes marriage complicated too. If your spouse is too enmeshed with his mother to see that her involvement is unhealthy, and if she is his source for knowledge of this subject and he refuses to hear anyone else including the church, or Genesis, Ephesians, or Matthew 19:5 on leaving and cleaving and what leaving IS (multiple calls from Mama and Face Time with her once or more a day is not physically living together, but JUST AS disastrous), it's a sad situation.
I would say that goes for a wife who refuses to separate from her family. My son is going through a divorce right now. She blames it on his depression. I say you don’t have a marriage when every evening after work and every Saturday and Sunday afternoon she is going to her parents instead of spending time with her husband. My son is backslidden and I don’t know if she was ever saved.
@@thejourney1369 - If man's spirit is not sanctified (made Holy or made clean) by God's Spirit in daily life, nobody is saved. 2 Thessalonians 2: 13, " But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth " Belief in the truth: Belief in Resurrected Christ Sanctification of man's spirit by God's Holy Spirit: God makes a person more and more like Jesus Christ in character everyday of their lives when they live in obedience to Jesus' teachings.
I'm actually going through a very similar situation. My husband treats his mom like she's his wife, her needs are more important, he say in decisions are taken over mine, etc. We are discussing divorce because now he wants to get his mom a house before we even do (despite us having a lot of debt). I cannot agree with this, but my husband pushes it and says if I don't agree he wants to divorce. Will this divorce set me free as Mike discusses?
@@magdasim9456 Aww, on your situation. That's TERRIBLE. I'm really, really sorry. 😟 As for your question, Deuteronomy 24:2 says the wife is free to go and marry another man: When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. *2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.*
I went to my pastor for counseling and he said that I just need sleep. I worked the night shift, came home, fed and dressed the kids and brought them to the babysitter. My husband would pick up the kids from the babysitter and put them in the bed with me so I was extremely sleep deprived. He didn’t work. He thought that having a babysitter was child abuse. It escalated to the point where he had already made attempts on my life and was psychologically abusing the kids including putting the eldest in a psych ward and stole all of her belongings. But Christians still say I was wrong to divorce him.
You did the right thing. You and your children are worth protecting, and that's exactly what you did. This might not mean much, coming from an atheist, but when someone has made attempts on your life, then that's not a safe environment for anyone. I'm sorry your church didn't support you. Safety is first for a reason, and your children will thank you some day, whether you have the church's blessing or not. My heart goes out to you 💙😢
@@shellyscholz1256 I'm glad you did start to see some support from the church, I'm sorry some family members are still harsh. I hope you can find healing and good friends who are willing to help and be there for you.🌸
God doesn’t want you to go though physical abuse, but a separation must happen first then you must pray for that spouse. Divorced shouldn’t had been the first thing, but separation should of took place.
I’ll tell you how we apply this! When they go “ leave the marriage” and don’t want to reconcile and continue to abuse. You are free No more to be said The End
I've never been married, but this is a good perspective and understanding for when I hear this discussed in the future. I've generally heard divorce is permissible in the case of adultery, abuse, or abandonment, but this actually explained well why abuse and abandonment are akin to the person being unChristian.
Thanks, Mike, for making this video. I learned a lot from it. I used to think that if an abuser wouldn't repent, the couple should separate but not marry another. Now I see that would leave the victim in limbo forever, while the abuser would probably end up remarrying.
If the abuser remarries, then even if you believe sexual immorality is the only good reason for divorce, the abuser has committed such a thing by putting his/her spouse away without such a cause and proceeding to marry another. The abused would then be 100% free to remarry. Just some food for thought!
The whole thing is confusing to me, I would love more clarity on when do you apply the not remarrying another part then? Just seems like a loophole so no one ever has to follow the verse. But maybe I'm misunderstanding the arguement.
there is no license to remarry for people who entered into a COVENANT with both spouse, and GOD that said “till death”…separation or legal divorce is already “out” enough… if we look further into the New Testament we find answers. “And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.” 1 Corinthians 7:10-15 KJV The prescription for divorced or separated people, is to be reconciled (when/if possible) or REMAIN UNMARRIED. Some may think this is somehow unfair, but we chose our spouse. If it turns out we didn’t choose well, or “they changed” unfortunately that is our cross we must bear. We all have one/some, but that will be a major one for folks who get into these unfortunate unions. The absolute BEAUTY of this unfortunate situation, is that now you can live for God more focused!!! I personally don’t think I would want to be married again should my husband die. 🤷🏽♀️ the Lord would have to tell me for a certainty that that’s what he wanted me to do. “For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.” Romans 7:2-3 KJV
Question: Abuser goes "crazy" and threatens to kill people in the church and does scary, dangerous things. The church is too scared of him to do any kind of "church discipline". Wife flees and gets "help" herself because the abuser refuses to get "help" for his mental illness, etc. She files for a "protection order" and only "supervised visits" for the kids but the state says she can not get a "legal separation" for more than 2 years....and then MUST file for divorce. In order for her and the kids to be safe then, she is forced to get a divorce. What is she to do if she feels divorce is wrong?
The abusive spouse doesn't WANT to leave, though. I married twice. My first husband was a pastor and he was abusive in every way except beating me. He was perfectly happy with the situation, was confronted, cried crocodile tears and three days later, was abusing again. I stupidly remarried because I rebounded and was live bombed by a guy who said he was a Christian. He was not physically abusive, but he was addicted to porn, had a personality disorder which brought with it the inability to take responsibility or have remorse for actions and even his family said there was something wrong with him, which I found out in the middle of our divorce. Again, he didn't want to leave. I've struggled with whether leaving my second husband was a sin because he didn't hit me and he wasn't intentionally doing the abuse as far as I could tell. BUT he's definitely a non believer, calls God an a hole and while he's working with me well with the kids (more team players now that we're divorced) and being a pretty good dad, he definitely was too disordered to be a husband. He was too disordered to know that he was abusive and passive aggressive and such. So I struggle daily knowing if I sinned or not. I hope not, but I don't know. In any case, not remarried now and am just focused on the kids.
I feel God's compassion for you. I'm so sorry that both of those men were like that to you. You don't deserve to be treated in such ways by men. I'm not saying that you sinned but if it bothers you frequently you can always go to God in private and just spend time with Him talking to Him about your feelings and ask Him for His comfort and healing. Ask Him to reveal to you the truth and remove any deceptions that may be attacking you. God bless you sister.
This whole divorce and remarriage thing can't ever be applied when most all churches won't even think with any type of commen sense on this subject....my wife's ex tried to kill hee twice yet her family came against her when she left him for me..she was a battered woman and I was backslidden....it is what it is, we were wrong for doing things the way we did but nobody ever even told this guy he was wrong for doing ehat he did, she fled the city she was in with my stepson and he never seen one day in jail and is even working under the table to avoid child support....
A just civil response would have freed her from that difficult moral situation.... Sadly, the Church in large has shrunk back and allow evil to claim principality over our civil spheres.
@user-tf1oo9rj6u I mean even just a christian family in general should know to protect their own......ive been together with my wife 11 years now, my stepson is about to go to college with honors and my wife has a smile on her face which she never had before me and we are happy, we've been to the valley of the shadow of death and came out battered but not destroyed man, we have a testimony but ppl dont see passed the valleys, funny thing is they cannot see the valley they're in, they can't see their own sins.....the legal system is a joke too but the ignorance in the church pisses me off to no end because they have no mercy from anyone, in alot of Christians minds everyone goes to hell but them and im very aware of my sins and don't try and cover them with excuses ijs I'm not perfect like everyone else, shoot ive failed I need jesus christ.
@@chaboi7 In the New Testament it says that if someone who doesn't provide for their family (when it's in their power to do so), and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Often abusers will fail to provide for those in their care and I don't just mean the provision of tangible items like a roof, food and clothing but also protection and safety. Yeah, the church's response to this issue has historically, and still is, appalling. In Matthew 19 the Pharisees were asking Jesus it it was lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason. Jesus' response was to MEN (not to women) who were divorcing their wives for trivial reasons which in itself was a form of abuse/abandonment (hardness of heart) as, in many cases, it would leave her destitute (still happens today). In Jesus' time the law was being used as an excuse to allow men to treat their wives unfairly. This is the reason why Jesus tells the Pharisees (self righteous followers of the law lacking in compassion) that it was not God's original plan for men to dispose of their wives. However, since sin came into the world there is, at times, a practical need for divorce, but it's never for superficial reasons. I believe that the reason Jesus just mentioned adultery is because at that time it was the only serious sin a wife could commit against her husband. Therefore, Jesus' words were in defence/protection of women but they've been twisted to now make them mean that she is to stay with an abusive spouse. Modern interpretation of this passage makes it a universal two way street even though Jesus was only speaking to men who were abusing the law for their own selfish ends. He was also referring to a narrow set of circumstances: He was chastising husbands who were treating wives unfairly. He was not speaking to women who were being abused. The thing also to remember is that, at that time, the pagan nations treated their women as property whereas Jews were to treat women as human beings who, under Jewish law, had rights and not being divorced for trivial reasons was supposed to be one of them since being married, at that time, meant that she would be protected and provided for. At that time there were quite a few Jewish men who disliked not being able to do as they pleased with their wives (like the pagans) and therefore tried to twist the law to accomodate their desires (to discard a wife for whatever reason) and Jesus was calling them out. This is the meaning of that text. It's not meant as a forever law/rule set in stone to apply to all situations for all eternity. What pisses me off too is that no wisdom or discernment (particularly from the leadership) is applied to these cases and, as a result, I have lost trust and faith in the church. I've seen firsthand the amount of damage that DV can do to generations of people (including falling away from the church and Christianity altogether). If only the church would act like Jesus and grow a pair and call abusers out. Instead, in many cases, they provide a safe haven for abusers and ostracise victims. Beyond shameful. Am glad to hear that you and your wife found each other and are now in a happy marriage.
@anta3612 hey sorry to reply late, bro if you would sit with me and listen to everything I've been through in church it'll make your head spin......here's one, there was a Preacher from Florida, very famous im the Hispanic world and he was a powerful singer for the lord and he was invited to churches all over the world & had a few cd's, anyways this guy gets caught literally showing his 5-ish year old son how to take pictures up the skirts of the Christian women, he was caught on camera and the ppl around him even ran him down, not even a year later he was being invited to the church I grew up in again and when I spoke out against him I was attacked relentlessly by the Christians there saying I wasn't forgiving......im like this guy has money & fame & talents but he also is demanding my trust after everything he did, naw not for me.
@@chaboi7 I believe you. The concept of forgiveness is misunderstood and tends to get abused in Christian circles. Nowhere in the bible are we commanded to trust and, while forgiveness can be granted even in the absence of repentance from the other person, trust has to be won back and that can only happen when there is genuine repentance and the offender is making a serious effort to mend their ways. Even then, depending on the nature of the offence, trust may never be regained and it may never be possible to restore fellowship with that person. Once broken, trust is difficult to restore and it is unreasonable (even abusive) to expect us to. It also doesn't say in the bible that we are not allowed to remove ourselves from harm's way (or remove the harm from ourselves) and, when we do, this is not indicative of unforgiveness. There is a serious lack of wisdom and discernment in the church and manipulative and abusive people use this to their advantage in order to keep harming people. I hear you about being attacked for speaking up. When my child was 5 years old she was molested by someone from church. I reported him to the police and I was told by the pastor that I was being spiteful and vindictive! How twisted is that? Luckily the abuse was discovered right away (it didn't go on and on) and my swift intervention helped my child to not have lasting scars from the incident. I also got professional psychological help for her (as the church was useless) which also helped in a swift recovery. However, the backlash from the church was astounding. Not only was I attacked for reporting the perpetrator to the police, I was also told that I was being sinful for getting secular counselling for my child. In hindsight I still believe it's the best thing I could have done. Just think if I'd done what the church recommended which was "forgive" (their version: in other words take no protective action/act like it was no big deal/nothing had happened), get no professional help and instead turn to the church for "counselling" (which would have involved a lecture to "forgive"). That was their solution! I was even told that the reason this happened in the first place was probably because I must have some sin in my life which, according to the pastor, was made evident by the way I handled the situation by not "submitting" to the church (meaning I didn't follow their twisted/damaging counsel). In the end I did forgive the perpetrator (not easy when it's your child) but I did so privately and I pray for his repentance (I don't know if he ever did repent). I think the reason I was able to forgive was because my child didn't suffer any lasting and serious consequences (again: thanks to swift intervention and protective measures taken to restore safety). However, if given the chance, it doesn't mean I'd let him anywhere near my child ever again. As for that church? They showed their true colours and I walked away. I still believe in Jesus but the church? Most (and I have been quite a few) have turned out to be havens for all sorts of corruption and have showed a total lack of wisdom, discernment and even just plain common sense. After many years I've come to the conclusion that few churches are healthy and those who protect abusers do so because, fundamentally, they themselves are abusive.
I remember someone who had been a youth teacher in the church, but took over a year away to travel around the world. The pastor at church knew that someone in the church had been living a life against the laws of God but did not want to do it. The pastor waited until the person who went away and demanded that person handle it, when they returned. The person said, I am not on the board of the church anymore and even if I were, I have not been here while this was happening. Therefore, it is not my responsibility. You have to do it yourself. What do you think? As a person in the same position as this person was in the past. I think that the pastor should deal with it.
The lord doesn’t harden the heart the enemy does. God allow people to have free will. God will never force anyone to change, but we must bless them and continue to pray for them.
@@laureah21 I think it means without His Grace, we do what we will which unfortunately is following our evil inclination. I believe He is active when we behave with kindness.
@andreiamitroaie Agreed, but God also does that when they are already hardened / in rebellion. Like giving them a delusion, He does so when they already reject Truth. God hardened pharaoh's heart after he had chosen to harden his own heart multiple times.
Hey pastor love your work. Idk if you might want to show the difference between misuse and abuse. That might help with the definitions to give more clarity of what people do in relationships.
Two local churches closed their doors and went out of business after the leadership of those churches helped my wife falsely accuse me of abuse. All the while our children told all who would listen, "We hope Mom & Dad don't get divorced, but if they do, we want to live with Daddy!" Our Pediatrician referred my wife to a Psychiatrist. After my wife had 15 months of out patient care, I was asked to hire a lawyer to get my wife committed to a mental hospital. The Psychiatrist at the Mental Hospital refused to talk with the Pediatrician. The Pediatrician refused to talk with the Psychiatrist. Once the divorce process began I had from the first day, custody of my children. It was an open and shut case. My wife used about six lawyers in total. I used one, winning sole custody of the children my wife was abusing. My former denomination tells me I am no longer qualified to be a Pastor since I am divorced but the 25 year old kid Pastor who was the first to believe her lies about me is still allowed to be a Pastor.
Pastorart1974, I can understand your feeling of betrayal and anger. It is hard to understand why God would allow something like this to happen. Especially, when the people who believed something so horrible about you should have known better. Known you better. As a Christian, we believe things that are taught in the Bible and infer something that isn't actually there. I believed that by living our lives in a certain way, we were guaranteed to have a good life. Sort of like fairy tales. "And they all lived happily ever after." My ex wanted a divorce. I couldn't figure out what I did wrong. I have been a Christian since I was 5 years old. I always tried to do what Jesus said to do. My father told me that I was too nice. Apparently, my insistence on doing the right thing was difficult for others. Intimidating. Anyway, my whole church knew that he was seeing someone else. I was blind sided. I knew something was wrong, but I would have never believed that he was unfaithful. He was a Deacon, a Christian. I didn't believe it until my son told me. He had taken my son on one or more of their dates. What you have to understand is that this is about faith. My faith. My whole world was shaken. Everything that I believed, everything that I knew, was in question. My identity disappeared. I wasn't supposed to be in this situation. All of the promises that I had heard all of my life went up in smoke. I ended up homeless, jobless, broke, and childless. Why? Thirty years later, I don't have the full answer. I do know that God allowed this to happen to teach me. To shape me into the person that He wants me to be. Up until then, my life had been fairly easy. Afterward, I had to depend upon God. God wants us to be in close communication with him, to know that he is always there. He will provide the things that you need. And he wants you to know that there is ALWAYS a reason for whatever you are going through. Just open yourself up to be aware of what lesson he is teaching you. It could be one or many. There's a reason why YOU have your children. Children are precious. Before you act remember that you are representing God in your children's eyes. What are they seeing? I pray for you and your children and will to do so for as long as I can. Your sister in Christ. 🙏 🙏 🙏
I know the Bible says to use church discipline and I agree with that--but what if the abuser is also extremely vindictive and will retaliate against the person they are abusing, when their evil is exposed and they are embarrassed and humiliated? Most abusers are retaliaters as well.
Church discipline is for believers who mess up. Abusers aren't believers and this is the reason why: John 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." Definition of love according to the Bible: 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Abuse and love are opposites. Therefore you cannot be a genuine Christian and be an abuser. While none of us are perfect, and we all stumble and fall, the true believer is teachable, will allow God to convict him/her of sin/wrongdoing, will repent, will seek to make amends and ask God for the grace to do better. We are all a work in progress and we are to be patient with one another. However, this is not the case with abusers. Abuse is about systematic power and control the aim of which is to lord it over others in a self serving way to the detriment of others. Lets look at the biblical definition of love and compare it to the mindset of an abuser: Patience: abusers will lash out if they don't get their way (no patience) Kind: abusers tend to be cruel and harsh Envy: many abusers feel like they received a bad deal in life (envious of those who have it better) which is often why anger is always festering just below the surface ready to erupt at the slightest provocation (things not going their way) Boasting: abusers like to be seen as good people to the outside world: who they are in private is very different to their public façade. Proud: abusers have fragile egos which are easily injured. This is a result of pride Dishonouring others: this is an abusers daily bread and butter. They constantly dishonour those closest to them Self-seeking: abusers are selfish and self serving to the detriment of those closest to them. Is not easily angered: an abuser's anger is very easily triggered It keeps no record of wrongs: abusers have a very long memory when it comes to the wrongdoing of others towards them (even if they are just perceived wrongs). Abusers perceive themselves as victims (everyone else is always doing them wrong). Does not delight in evil: many abusers take pleasure in causing harm and misery to those closest to them because it reinforces their sense of control. Rejoices with the truth. abusers are liars because they put on a mask for the world thus hiding their true nature: only those closest to them know who they really are. It always protects: abusers do not protect those in their care if anything they put them in harm's way Always hopes: the fact that abusers are about power and control means that they don't have faith or hope (faith is the substance of things hoped for) Always perseveres. here it's talking about persevering when things get difficult. Abusers create misery for others while taking the easy route for themselves and therefore they aren't perseverers. In order to qualify as an abuser these traits need to be systematic (not merely going through a tough season) and be present most of the time for most of the person's life. As we can this type of person does not love and therefore cannot be a true Christian although they may, and usually do, outwardly say and do all the right things in order to appear to be a Christian to those who don't know them intimately. They really need to be treated as unbelievers unless/until they genuinely repent and seriously work hard on changing (which takes time and a lame "sorry" doesn't cut it). However, according to statistics only 3% change their behaviour or are willing to do the necessary work to achieve long lasting change. Therefore, claims by an abuser that they've repented and changed need to be viewed with extreme caution as they are known to do and say whatever they have to (in other words they lie) to avoid consequences and once the threat to their image/status/control has passed they end up becoming more abusive than ever.
Wow, that's the first time I ever heard of a situation like mine, with the sleep deprivation poking. I sleep on the couch now, but I spent a good 18 years or so getting fingers poked in my eyes and ears all night long. Anyway, having my life full of narcissistic abuse by my dad, boyfriends, both marriages, it baffles my mind that an actual real Christian would abuse their spouse. I don't believe for a second that this kind of abuse is rare. I used to think that , until it kept happening to me by every one I know, even my brother and so called friends in highschool, Narcissism is everywhere. What I believe is rare and extreme is a good marriage where people don't fight everyday. I can't even picture having a relationship with anyone that is normal, what would that even look like. Humankind is inherently selfish and cold hearted. Also, that things like that just happens but it's not abuse?🤷 I have serious reservations if my husband dies (because I can't leave), if I'm going to get married again, if any form of abuse is considered normal behavior in a marriage. No thanks, I'll stay single. I tried the reconcile thing, it was nothing but a cold spoken contract that we wouldn't have any more relationships with other people. While it kept the peace, somewhat, there is no such thing as a relationship with a malignant narcissist. I'm living with him so I'm not homeless and I can raise my son. As much as he lets me. He absolutely refuses to leave, yet threatens to kick me out constantly. But he won't because I have income.
We are all sinners, we have all blown it, multiple times, we're all on a equal playing field husbands and wives, however I will say that there are some extreme examples yet we are called To Love even to the point of self-sacrifice and going to the cross so if we are supposed to love our enemies feed and clothe them how much more are we supposed to love our spouses and suffer through hell and high water for them with them that they may be reconciled to God? I will sum it up with the words of Jesus Son of God Messiah- *”GOD HATES DIVORCE”* I will leave it at that, thank you Mike, brothers and sisters, I'm still hoping for reconciliation in my failed marriage. Please continue to pray for me, pray for us, and I thank you, God bless you all Timothy
I never understood how men think it’s funny to terrorize their wives and kids by chasing them with bugs because the man thinks it’s silly that his wife is phobic about, say, a mouse or spider. It’s not funny. It’s cruel. Yet so many do things like this, or tell you after you take a bite of something that there’s an ingredient in it you hate (deer or seafood) then laugh as you spit it out and say it’s not true, going back and forth, calling it teasing. I’m fine with teasing but there should be respect when genuine fear or disgust is involved. That’s not okay, but we have to live with it or we’re derided for not having a sense of humor or taking a joke, and told to lighten up.
I waited on my now ex husband for 23 years to repent. He cheated on me in every way there is out there. Abused me to the point of sodomy to exploit his sick mind. And I still stayed because our church said I must pray about him. Finally left after my sons grew up. But that’s after I spent my youth on this evil man
These issues are never easy! It breaks my heart to work with women through the church whose husbands are cheating and said husband has zero desire to get help for his behaviors of constant adultery and then everyone judges the wife for leaving. Is that man truly a Christian?
I hear people keep saying that we can't judge another person's heart. However, we can know them by their fruits. Of course none of us are perfect and we are all a work in progress. However, the true believer is teachable, will allow God to convict him/her of sin/wrongdoing, will repent, will seek to make amends and ask God for the grace to do better. We are all a work in progress and we are to be patient with one another. This, on the other hand, is not the case with abusers. Abuse is about systematic mistreatment, power and control the aim of which is to lord it over others in a self serving way to the detriment of others. They tend to feel entitled and therefore are not open to correction (although they'll sometimes pretend they are if it serves a purpose).
Someone who doesn't provide for their family (when it's in their power to do so we don't mean if it's a not in their power), and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Often abusers will fail to provide for those in their care and I don't just mean the provision of tangible items like a roof, food and clothing but also protection and safety.
It's alot of uneducated people who lack comprehension skills in here trying so hard to make others live a life in bondage. You'll perish if you follow the things people that lack understanding say. All the bes and i pray that for my divorced friends the Lord comforts you cause i know that it can be a lonely and isolating experience.
I've had my divorce granted on biblical grounds. How so? Abuse to where she had intent to cause harm or kill me. I had many pastors and they said that my grounds of divorce was granted biblically and shouldn't hinder my chances of God's priesthood as the intent to kill is the "unfaithfulness" to where love is completely gone and unreconciliable, just like the stance on the death penalty.
I’m sorry to hear about the pain and difficulties you’ve been through. It’s hard to imagine just how painful it would be to have your spouse treat you that way. Have you been able to find forgiveness for her through Christ?
I'm inclined to agree. At a civil level, if society were following God's commandments, justice would have freed you. Spiritually and principally, I think it is right for the Church to declare this a death of the marriage and you as free. That said, seek God and listen to the Holy Spirit. Follow your convictions.
John 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres". Matthew 7:15-20 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them". Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. ........................................................................................................................................................................ Anyone can call themselves a Christian (false prophets certainly do) but to know whether someone is a true believer we need to look at their fruits and the most important is love. None of us are perfect and we all stumble and fall. However, the true believer is teachable, will allow God to convict him/her of sin/wrongdoing, will take responsibility for their actions, will repent, will seek to make amends and ask God for the grace to do better and take serious steps to avoid reoffending. We are all a work in progress and we are to be patient with one another. However, this is not the case with abusers. Abuse is about systematic power and control the aim of which is to lord it over others in a self serving way to the detriment of others. Abusers do not like to be corrected (unteachable), and according to statistics only 3% change/turn around/repent as they tend to justify their behaviour and chronically fail to take responsibility for it. They also tend to be/act entitled and have anger issues which they justify/find excuses for. Abuse and love are opposites. Lets take a moment to look at the biblical definition of love and compare it to the mindset of an abuser: Patience: abusers will lash out if they don't get their way (no patience). Kind: abusers tend to be cruel and harsh. Envy: many abusers feel like they received a bad deal in life (envious of those who have it better) which is often why anger is always festering just below the surface ready to erupt at the slightest provocation (things not going their way brings out their chronic sense of victimhood). Boasting: abusers like to be seen as good people to the outside world they often even go out of their way to portray themselves in a good light: who they are in private is very different to their public façade. Proud: abusers have fragile egos which are easily injured. This is a result of pride. Dishonouring others: this is an abusers daily bread and butter. They constantly dishonour those closest to them. Self-seeking: abusers are selfish and self serving to the detriment of those closest to them. Is not easily angered: an abuser's anger is very easily triggered. It keeps no record of wrongs: abusers have a very long memory when it comes to the wrongdoing of others towards them (even if they are just perceived wrongs). Abusers perceive themselves as victims (everyone else is always doing them wrong). Does not delight in evil: many abusers take pleasure in causing harm and misery to those closest to them because it reinforces their sense of control. Rejoices with the truth. abusers are liars because they put on a mask for the world while hiding their true nature: only those closest to them know who they really are. It always protects: abusers do not protect those in their care. If anything they put them in harm's way Always hopes: the fact that abusers are about power and control means that they don't have faith or hope (faith is the substance of things hoped for). Why hope for things when you can control things? Always perseveres. here it's talking about persevering when things get difficult. Abusers create misery for others while taking the easy route for themselves and therefore they aren't perseverers. As we can see abusers do not love and therefore cannot be true Christians although they may, and usually do, outwardly say and do all the right things in order to appear to be Christians to those who don't know them intimately. Now lets look at the fruit of the spirit: Love: we've already seen that abusers do not love. Joy: joyful people do not harm others and therefore abusers must not have joy. Peace: abusers have a deep root of anger and therefore don't have peace. Forbearance: which means tolerance: abusers have no tolerance when it comes to those closest to. them and they can't tolerate not having their own way. Kindness: abusers are not kind. Faithfulness: many abusers cheat on their spouse or, at the very least, are very untrustworthy. Gentleness: abusers tend to be violent whether physically or verbally. Self-control: abusers have no self control towards those they are intimately connected to. ....................................................................................................................................................................... Abuse is only hard to define for the untrained, uneducated as well as those lacking in wisdom and discernment and this is sadly the case in many churches. Churches need to do better. Each church should have people on their staff who are professionally trained in DV as spotting genuine abuse is not that difficult for a trained professional who knows what to look for. They should have at least one man and one woman with these qualifications so that victims of DV can have someone of their own gender in which to confide. Once genuine abuse has been confirmed then it shouldn't be difficult to take steps to see if the offending party is open to correction (not just pretending as many do to avoid consequences) and the injured party should be protected and not be pressured into staying especially when there is no genuine remorse. Those with professional training will also know that only a mere 3% of offenders are likely to change their behaviour or engage in the process needed to bring about lasting change. Therefore a professional will be realistic regarding expectations and will also know that any real change is likely to take at least a year or longer while an unrepentant heart/unwillingness to engage/refusal to take responsibility will indicate that the person is unlikely to be a genuine Christian. Their spouse, after a time of separation and waiting period (to see if genuine repentance/change/effort is being made), should then be free to do as they deem appropriate. Even if genuine repentance/change does happen it will still take time and effort to build back trust and that may take even longer. The road to recovery can be a long and difficult one and takes a lot of hard work and only those serious about their walk with the Lord are likely to follow this path. Therefore, there are tools to deal with this issue but churches aren't equipping themselves with them. Why not? The fact that churches aren't taking a serious stance against DV (which is a serious issue that affects many lives including those of young, innocent and vulnerable children) means that they cannot be taken seriously on much anything else. They are allowing very serious sin to run rampant without doing anything about it and the best they can say is "it's hard to define"? Please miss me with this nonsense.
Six years ago, my wife left our bedroom. There has been no intimacy whatsoever since. We still live in the same house, different rooms-she sleeps in our children’s room-and the mental anxiety I’ve experienced is off the charts. I stay for the kids, and pray every night for Jesus to drop the scales from her eyes. She makes fun of me because I believe in the Bible. On Dec 12, 2012, Jesus came and forgave me of my sins. I went from non-believer to a Jesus follower in 1.5 seconds. She doesn’t believe that happened to me, though I bear fruit with my testimony. She keeps telling me that we’ll raise our kids and then see what we’re going to do. Great. I’m the meantime I’m living with an unrepentant roommate. This isn’t what I signed up for. But I’d rather suffer and stay for my kids
You are a danger to your kids. You are gonna instill the misogyny and homophobia inherent to your beliefs onto them. You should be as far away from her as possible. Your beliefs entail her being a lesser being to you
So you are a believer but your wife isn't? If so you are to remain married as long as she desires to (1 Corinthians 7). Your charge is to love and cherish her every day and display Christ to her, which I assume you're doing. Immerse yourself in Christian community and look for opportunities to include your wife. Be encouraged that God sees.
It’s easy to come up with Biblical reasons for divorce, but you have to really ask yourself: ‘Is this a reason I could legitimately tell God with a genuine heart?’ I appreciate the nuance here, but it’s still tough to get around Jesus in Mark 10 where He recognizes the nuance but still says remarriage is adultery
«Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.» Luke 16:16-18 KJVAE
There is a difference between abandoning and "putting away" a wife (not divorced) so you can pursue another woman (real adultery) and then try to make the adultery right by marrying the new woman vs. marrying someone who is divorced. People are trying to make that verse mean the same thing when it does not.
@@em77775 _And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:_ _but and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife._ 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 KJV What do you have to say about these verses?
Mark 10 is laying down a principle, not an instruction manual. Otherwise scripture would contradict itself. Mike did a three hour video on marriage and divorce. You should listen to it.
@@tt-cy1hb People have to take an honest stance on whether or not to follow the Bible, rather than twisting the message to their own liking. I bow for the Lord and the scripture. Jesus is very clear about remarriage being not an option as long as both live.
Why do you keep saying "extreme" abuse? You make it sound like if someone isn't actively torturing their spouse then it's not a big deal. Any and all abuse can be taken to the church if it's not being dealt with, and the church can put someone out if they won't repent.
Sadly, most churches don't take church discipline seriously... (except in cases of making mountains out of moleholes of trivial doctrine unique to their sect).
You should cover more videos on the topic of sexual immorality and general lack of accountability and responsibility about the topic. Heaven knows it needs to be discussed.
What if that spouse repents and comes to Christ. Should that marriage then be reconciled? In part, a question regarding the appropriateness of remarriage in these cases. But you can go beyond that. God Bless and Keep you and yours
But Pastor Mike, how will we know if our spouse will poke us while we sleep unless we cohabitate first before marriage? 🤔 Chill, y'all. This is a joke referencing a previous clip.
I grew up in church and as a Christian but I do believe in divorce and if you need to get divorced then you do. God doesn’t want you to suffer in your marriage. If you need to make a decision pray to God so he can move his hand of power to your benefit.
to the natural man, Ecclesiastes 3:15: “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.” The “natural man” cannot grasp that, for to him reality is based only on the evidence of the senses. The man of reason could justify the verse’s end, saying if it has any meaning then the writer must mean recurrence. The sun comes every day and the moon completes its cycle and the seasons come and go. If we took a picture of the universe today, the scientists can compute how long it will take to return to this point in the picture. So the intellectual man could justify the verse; but that is not what is meant, for it is addressed not to the man of reason or the man of sense, but to the man of Imagination. What is it all about? “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been, and God seeks what has been driven away.”
First thing first I think we should stop assuming that Jesus did not think things through before he made the statement he made which was simply stating that divorce is allowed but REMMARRIAGE ISN'T. Jesus said that Moses allowed divorce because of the wickedness amongst people that were supposed to be children of God. Jesus was fully aware of situations that could lead to divorce when he gave his instructions. The simple way to look at this is = If Jesus said that if a believing partner commits sexual immorality (sin), then you can get a divorce but you are not allowed to remarry, it is therefore very clear that regardless of the type of sin, whether sexual immorality or abuse, Jesus knows that a believer could actually fall back into sin, and if such happens and you cant be with the person again you can divorce but you are not to remarry. So you cant say if you were abused then that means the person was never really a Christian and so you can remarry, then the same thing could be said of the person who commits sexual immorality, that if the person could commit sexual immorality than he/she was never really a believer, SO WHY did Jesus say you couldn't remarry if you divorce your spouse because of sexual immorality. The issue is not the TYPE OF SIN. The command is the command. YOU ARE NOT WISER THAN JESUS. The sad reality is that Christians choose their spouses based on outward appearance of supposed godliness, you say "he is a pastor in church," "she sings in the choir", "he is so prayerful", and so you assume the person is a true believer based on the outward form of godliness instead of relying on God who sees the heart to tell you if that person is for you or not. God will NEVER lead you to an abusive marriage. NEVER. If you are a Christian, God expects you to know Him and to rely on Him and if you choose not to and you get into the wrong marriage, He loves you enough to allow you to get out of that marriage (divorce), but your "punishment" or rather repercussion for not depending on God for your spouse, is for you to remain unmarried and focus on serving HIM. It is the bitter truth. If we face this fact, we singles will be very careful in our decisions and will rely on hearing God's voice. The fundamental issue is that many professed Christians don't know God's voice, so they don't know when He speaks, so they just think, reading scriptures is like reading a motivational book that guides you on how you should live your life, but there is the aspect of the spirit. You can follow all the rules but if you are not led by the spirit of God, you will make mistakes such as marrying a seemingly godly man who ticks all the boxes outwardly, but isn't really godly. … SORRY FOR MY RANT...
I have a friend who was in an abusive marriage for years and when she finally left she has been met with *so* much shame. My stance has been in line with Pastor Mikes. Great thoughts about Saul & David. and Matthew 18.
"Wives submit to your husbands " Paul addressed this to believers. Believing husband, believing wife. A woman is not bound to obey a Godless wife beating drunkard!" The late Dr. Jay Vernon McGee
So how do you get around this 1 Peter 3:1-5 ESV Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external-the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear- but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,
@@chandlerjacksonaz people like you validate the criticism that Christians use the bible to justify anything they want including slavery. You aren't using the bible correctly.
@@Do_not_at_me_bro That’s a straw man argument, I never said the Bible justifies slavery. You argument is that submitting is only if you are married to a believer, which is not true based off of the verse I shared. There are some exceptions to the rule but the rule is to submit.
@@chandlerjacksonaz Speaking to believers. Not Godless wife beaters. A Godless drunkard / druggie wife beater trying to invoke this needs to be cast of of the Church
I married a proclaimed Christian then we got pregnant and married. After living together for a year, I noticed she was in fact not a Christian. I should have vetted her better, but I was just coming out of a 1 year rehab and was improving myself, although I didn't have much fortification in the real world. Shifted to marriage rather quickly. My discontent lead me back into a very gradual relapse. Here and there with months in between to the point it was almost every other weekend I'd go smoke meth to feel happy. And of course drinking started to increase and I smoked marijuana at the time. I even went to the VA to try anti depression medication and anxiety medication and got all sorts of testing done, which ultimately was just gas on the fire, especially when having thus medication in my system along with the occasional hard drug use and eventually not taking the medication consistently enough and eventually dropping the medication all together. I was drunk enough one day and woke up to a huge drama scene going on and eventually attacked my wife out of frusteration by grabbing her neck, which lead to my arrest. During my period of relapse she was dissatisfied and was assumingly cheating on me with other men. I was never able to absolutely prove it, but the circumstances pointed right to it. I wanted to fix it but after a month in jail and a restraining order, she found many other men and eventually replaced me with one guy then another guy who she's with now. I wish now that I'm better we could repair our marriage before divorce is finalized but she's too hurt and still with a man. I don't get to see my children till the divorce is finalized. These are her terms. However the church was never brought into the picture prior to separation due to the incident and due to her not having any trust in counseling nor the church and in fact stopped going to church all together. I don't blame a non Christian for not bringing the church into the picture. She told me counseling only works 30% of the time so it's not worth even trying. I don't think she wanted to fix it at that point. Especially after telling me she loves me but is not in love with me anymore.
Pastor Mike, it seems like you speak of separation as only an option for an abusive relationship. But what about the spouse that is the opposite? Absolutely cold and indifferent to you. No love, no warmth from the person that is supposed to be your protector and provider. How many times must I beg to be loved? To be seen and not ignored? I’m tired of being the only one pursuing him in this marriage. I’m tired of being the only one that puts in any effort. I’m scared that This is what the rest of my life will be. Please help
Let's be extremely careful what we label as abuse. People often withdraw because it seems safer than being open and vulnerable, and it has nothing to do with your quality as a wife. Are you involved in Christian community? God has given you the Church to help in a situation just like this.
People nowadays don't want to hear it, but Jesus spoke about this clearly. If a man unjustifiably divorces his wife, if she remarries she is committing adultery.
Im a Christian married to a non believer and have been abused mentally, emotionally and some physically ( things I can’t say here if you know what I mean) we have two kids 5 and 2 and live with his widowed mom, he’s an only child. Married for 6yrs been together since 19. I contemplate divorce but he says no. But I think it’s because I’m easy to manipulate. I feel stuck on fallowing the word of God and staying for my kids. I can’t take it anymore. He’s told me things that hurt me so bad. Ive told him things too. It’s a toxic relationship especially for our kids. He’s twisted my wrist, he’s pinned me against the wall and fridge. He’s tripped me to the floor and says it’s my fault that I did it. I feel stuck between Gods word and my kids happiness. I tried therapy but I can’t afford it. I work at his job park time. I feel like I don’t have liberty, even at work. Only when I go to my parents. I’m depressed and he makes fun of me. I’ve been to the ER because I’m under stress and he says it’s my fault, I put myself there. He’s also kept me up once because I woke him up for him snoring and he kept me up for 5hrs. Wouldn’t let me lie down. What should I do?
Get out as soon as you can. What are your children learning? Are you taking care of them by letting them think this is how a marriage is meant to be? What they see is a powerful powerful model for their future romantic relationships. That is part of why I'm separated; if it were just me I think I could make it, but my boys are learning to be abusers and my girls are learning to accept it. This must not continue, not on my watch. check out Leslie Vernick, Gretchen Baskerville, Sheila Wray Gregoire, Patrick Weaver ministries.
but if you know the person is Christian, and don't treat them as such, isn't that a form of bearing false witn4ess? Isn't it failing to love them as Christ loves us?
Hey Pastor Mike, I think it would be super awesome if you did am apologetical study on The Exodus event both biblically historic and historically historic. It would be quite interesting.
Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
All the scary Bible verses that sound like if you do this or don't do that you aren't a believer, it doesn't make sense because what we do does not save us so how can what we do be a measure of weather or not we are saved? Yes works can justify out faith to ourselves and others but not to God. All throughout scripture I see we are saved by grace through faith and it is not of works. Dead faith is still saving faith but dead faith is useless to God and others. That makes sense. More sense then what I hear when I hear and read those scary sounding verses.
The people that believe what you are espousing here LOVE to take ONE scripture and to ridiculous extremes and then IGNORE COMPLETELY ALLLL the verses that directly contradict the extrapolated meaning they took out of it. Jesus Himself asked people "why do you call me Lord, Lord, but don't do what I say?" Then again, He says, many will say, "didn't we prophecy, cast out demons, etc etc" and Jesus said, He will say to them, "Depart from me, YOU WHO PRACTICE INIQUITY, I NEVER KNEW YOU." IF you are saved, you WILL bear fruit and it will be evident in your actions. Your actions won't save you, but if your actions are no different than an unbeliever, YOU AREN'T A BELIEVER! It's not that hard to understand!
Man, it bugs me that you and Allen Parr disagree that abuse is grounds for divorce, and you both posted videos within days of each other addressing this topic with her.
So how does the unbeliever can leave if they want to equate to the believer can leave and divorce? Especially when Jesus only gave grounds in adultery?
Hey Mike, can you talk about unanswered prayers? I feel God is angry at me and refuses to hear my prayers. At times the opposite happens of what I pray. Yet I pray for biblical things.
*Biblical reasons for God not answering prayers:* 1. You are asking selfishly, for your own selfish desires/motives 2. You love your sin / are in iniquity, instead of repenting, you are staying in sin 3. You are taking communion in a bad manner 4. You are oppressing or mistreating others 5. You ignore the poor/the plight of others 6. You are doubting God 7. You are being prideful and God is resisting you 8. You are unjustly violent, including murder 9. You are harsh/insensitive to your wife (question: does this also go the other way with a wife who is disrespectful to her husband? is it a form of iniquity) 10. You are mistreating God's people 11. You are under a curse (such as from conning people) 12. You aren't abiding in God / seeking His kingdom 1st, but somehow expect the promises for that anyway 13. maybe you are simply asking for something God doesn't do (like _force_ someone to change vs draw them to relationship). (yes, a lot of those directly fit into loving sin/iniquity, but it's helpful to call out things God specifically names) I suggest you do a search and read passages on these. It will transform you to read them. I know I am humbled every time I do.
@@MaintDocs Or sometimes you're not doing any of these things and God has not said "yes" yet or might not ever say "yes" because He has a bigger plan than what we can imagine in our finiteness. I definitely know how this feels.
I have *only one disagreement but it's a debatable one: on Matt 18* - I believe that we the Church are all the Ecclesia. The difference here is the difference between, it's all up to the leaders vs it's publicly up to the entire Church body. If that person refuses to be reconciled to the body, they _he isn't a part of it._ It makes sense. It isn't limited by a few good or bad leaders in the Church, *if they won't listen to God's **_community,_** they are out.* I have seen (and experienced 1st hand) the effect of trying to interpret this as the Church elders. A lot of that can be boiled down to not sticking to the qualifications of elders, for sure. But when it's the community, like capital punishment in OT Israel, the whole community was involved. You better come forward with witness, because you're going to have to wrongfully throw the rocks that kill them if you remain silent. *Matt 18 shouldn't escalate so some closed door meeting with a couple pastors & elders playing judge and jury.* (I've seen the evil of that enough times to be thoroughly convinced against it) *It should escalate to the point where the entire body bears witness, that person refuses the entire body, that entire body then treats them as (same category as tax collectors and pimps).* If anyone outside that community comes and sees how that person is treated, they can ask - and *everyone in the community is capable of giving an answer,* because they heard the witnesses, they watched that person choose to give the entire community the metaphorical finger. Now some people will say, *"but Jesus was going over to tax collectors houses."* In clear context though, this is calling out _a change in how we treat them._ *Does it make sense to pick an interpretation where it escalates to "do nothing different?"* Does that fit the language and tone? No. Therefore, it is a more appropriate interpretation to take how they _culturally_ treated that category of people: *You don't want any association or business with pimps, you don't invite them to your house/fellowship with them, you avoid them.* You can still go out and witness to a pimp, but you don't make them your friend, you are even careful how you might be perceived by someone else if interacting with them. And it's natural: *refusal to be in right relationship with the body comes with **_loss of fellowship_** with the body.* And in parallel, what did God tell his Apostles to do with a town/people that refused to listen? Shake the dust off their sandals and move on (symbolically, releasing from any responsibility or association / don't want any of their sin on me). Some of those same towns later repented and had Churches in them. But they missed out for a while because of their hard hearts.
Bible is always clear that you can leave your spouse, but if you are free to remarry again is a completely separate issue. And I see a pandemic of remarried Christians. Not something that makes churches better. So, when things aren’t clear, it’s best to look for the fruits of behavior
Off topic. I was having a discussion with someone who argues that the Bible doesn’t state when a person begins to be a person. He said that when the brain is formed there’s person, because the soul is in the brain. If no brain (as in anencephaly) no person. Therefore you can have an abortion. Can we support with the Bible a person is a soul since conception?
The best scripture to use would be in Jeremiah. This shows God knows every person before they were ever in the womb, which would mean at the moment of conception when a new set of DNA is created. “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5
This is really dangerous, especially if you don't define "abuse." You're essentially giving people license to call any negative behavior "abuse," claiming the "abuser" must therefore not be a Christian, and claiming the "abuse" makes the marriage intolerable so that constitutes the other spouse leaving the marriage. If these are the ground rules, Christian marriage is meaningless and can be dissolved when either party is unhappy
Mike, Is it Biblical for a Christian, married couple to refuse to have children? Paul supports being single to avoid being drawn between God and a duty to your spouse. So, if a couple works well as a team, but having children would prevent them from doing their ministry, can they decide to not have children biblically?
*We are given lots of freedoms/liberties in the Bible. So let's not substitutes man's rules in place of God's.* I see the clear flow of your logic, and it seems to have some merit. Principally, there may be a bit of an issue here though. In this hypothetical marriage, is it sexless? - Because that is against commands some passages in the Bible. Given that marriage is not supposed to be sexless - then in that intended intimacy normally children would be an outcome. And that is in God's hands, for He opens and closes wombs, He crafts and designs that baby with His intent and care. So now we cross into the larger subject of can Christians use contraceptives? *Is it right to **_want to take the pleasure_** while avoiding the possible responsibilities?* That gives me a big pause. Isn't that one of Satan's primary sin tactics? Seize the blessing/promise early, take the benefit but avoid responsibility, fain the relationship but avoid entering into commitment? But is it permissible? Pastors & teachers need to be really careful about not overstepping the authority of their station - that is to teach the Word of God and lead application of it, to cross into teaching _their own_ theology _their own_ laws and principles. As ambassadors of God, we should dare not exceed our authority in this. I'm not going to bring a specific passage out of context here, because those brothers had a _specific responsibility_ and instead used her like a harlot and left her deprived. I don't see that as a general command for never using contraceptives. Principally, something strikes me as off still. That's my conviction without a direct Scripture command to give you. Related: Just because someone has become accustomed to/likes abuse does not make it permissible. For instance, it would be wrong to supply a heroin addict - just because they like it. A question of what spirit this is in comes up. And not just what spirit, many sexual acts that show they are abuse but the harmful signs, the fruit as it were. In some reserved bluntness, the reason we see saw so many adds 2 years ago about treatments for rear end disfunctions and problems is directly related to the 2 years before that where sexual experimentation was pushed in high school classes. *Putting something where it doesn't belong causes several signs of damage/harm, including a bunch of very long term disabilities. Isn't that a sign of God's disapproval? That even without a specific curse, the sheer mechanics of it cause long term harm? But that it **_also_** seems to incur related sexual disease problems?* This principle is not part to grasp, unless someone is actively not wanting to see it. We have freedom of speech, but we are not free to use that for death threats. *There are bounds on what it permissible in liberty.* We are called to use our liberty in a loving manner. Frequently love isn't giving someone what they think they want. (and God is our primary example to draw that principle from) Are our lives supposed to be spent in hedonistic pursuits ?(gratification/pleasure seeking) Isn't that how Rome was when God brought it down? Isn't that the sinful culture of America, not the moral God-seeking? There is a counterbalance of being told God gives us "our portion in life" and that we should enjoy it. We aren't called to a cold robot-like existence. But were aren't supposed to live our lives pursuing pleasure. I have not met someone in youthful fertility going after this children-less marriage idea, without seeing a very real layer of "we just want to be free and pursue our own enjoyments. Living without responsibility is fun." Does that match your situation? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it is genuinely from a desire to have no impediments to the ministry you are _currently_ being called to. But then, I suggest you go watch The End of the Spear and consider every missionary who is called to dangerous places with their children. I think of the testimonies I've heard from India with missionary families living in the dangerous jungle because in town the gangs murder missionaries. Is children really the impediment you think it is? Or does it merely change your mission work in a way you aren't comfortably used to? Perhaps _God_ is calling you to a shift from where He placed you. So my check to your heart is this: It may be permissible, but is it Godly? Does it actually match priorities and character we see in the life we are called to? *I'm not going to give you a command I don't see called out in Scripture.* I will point you to self examine and seek to show others the kind of love God has shown us. *Steward the life God has given you well, live in the freedom of your convictions.*
Now there is a word you used that presents another situation: refuse. Instead of being the married person considering or a concerned friend, *are you a parent of a now adult and married son or daughter, are you seeking grandchildren?* If this is the case, *I have very specific advice that applies to you,* including some warnings. God's Word is clear: the a man and woman are to leave their father and mother's household and become one together. A new family unit as it were. God says the husband _must_ love his wife as Christ loves the Church. A wife _must_ respect her husband. *Anything that attacks what God says is required is a **_sinful attack against_** their marriage.* (a sinful attack isn't _real_ love) So you must be careful of your own actions. It does not matter how good an idea you have, how ideal, how great it would be - if it comes above and attacks what God says is non-negotiable, you have put (your) man's ideas above God's. *This the the very **_idolatry_** Christ condemned the pharisees for and called them a brood of vipers.* It is _not_ godliness. As a parent, you were supposed to raise your _child_ in the way the should go - and when they are older, they will not depart from it. Not only may you need to wait until they are older (a deviance in youthful adulthood, but a return as they get older), but perhaps they weren't the issue. If you have failed to train your child in the way they should go - *you missed that boat.* They aren't children anymore. You can't cram them back in that box. That man is the head of his new family, with his wife at his side, unified together as one. If you are in panic, because you realize you have failed in your duty of raising your child the right way, or you are insecure and you have not raised them in a way you could see their trustworthiness - you cannot fix that failure now. It is wrong to treat them as children. They are adults, a man and a woman, sons and daughters still, but children no longer. *Do not presume that God will bless your efforts* - if you are engaged in idolatry, tearing down what He has ordained as necessary, trying to seize authority that does not belong to you, dishonoring their marriage (rebellion to "show honor where honor is due"). Indeed, if you were engaged in those kinds of actions, even for something that the idea at the start was right, BUT THE PATH IS ALL WRONG. If I was advising a young married couple, I would give them the same advice as any other couple: *You must protect your marriage. Your priority order is God 1st, your spouse 2nd. Get rid of anything in your life that attacks your marriage, be that friends or family.* Anyone who chips away at that is a poison to your marriage. Those were some stiff rebukes. Jesus called people doing that vipers. I have been more gentle than that. *So what can you do in that situation?* You don't want to sin, and you care about them. You know that life will end up with regret. 1. Pray (and do a study on why God does _not_ answer prayers, so that you can grow in the right spirit) 2. Have a good relationship with them, so you have a voice they are inclined to listen to. Honor and respect their marriage. Treat them with respect and honor. Show them godly love and care. 3. Ask questions and listen. You want a voice? Then make sure they feel respected when talking about something you disagree on. 4. Realize it's ultimately in God's hands, so _you personally_ don't need to be the one who changes them. 1 cor 3, we are all building on the foundation of Christ. It may need to be someone else without the family baggage in the way for them to hear. 5. Instead of attacking their wants, demonstrate and show God's values. If their values change, their wants change too. It is likely that the major element at stake is a very real level of live for Christ 1st and above all else vs living for the things of this world. That's a much deeper thing that the mere surface level "do we have children or not." Battering on the one issue will fail against the mountain of the real issue. 6. And what really is most important? Is our son's and daughter's comfort? safety? pleasure? Isn't it _best_ that they lead lives devoted to God above all else? Whether that risk their lives, their comforts, their safety, their wants? This life is temporary. Eternity is not.
Why would having children prevent someone from participating in ministry? If you have a unique calling, stay single. If you are married, and children are a blessing from the Lord, have children and minister as a family.
I have a question and I hope someone can help me. I am married to an unbelieving spouse. There has been some mental verbal and only a few instances of physical abuse. I believe from what I’ve read he is a narcissist as always deflects fault back to me. He has called me fat and stupid. I’ve felt his love grow cold for me and in this my heart has grown cold, it feels to protect. But I still love him . I have remained and even though I’m persecuted in my faith I still try and serve in quietness but today in an argument I said to him in exasperation I can’t do this marriage anymore as I feel like I’ve mentally left it and he has to. That I feel like I’m doing life alone. Today because I said my heart is not in the marriage anymore and I want to see a counsellor, he won’t and said we need to seperate. What do I do am I free to leave. I feel like I’ve caused this because I told him how I felt in frustration and that’s just kicked off a chain of events, where he seems to want to punish me by saying there is no way back from what I said.
If the unbelieving spouse does not want to stay in the marriage, you are free to leave. As far as whether you are free to remarry, that is a different question. The conclusion I came to is no, not unless they commit adultery (including remarriage).
Mike please respond to this TH-camr Gregg Jackson He takes the doctrine of faith alone to mean we are once saved always saved even if we don't confess with our mouth that Jesus is lord, don't forgive those who trespass against us, and even if we deny the Lord before men or become apostates. He thinks if we believe in Jesus even only for a moment we can willfully sin all we like and even renounce the faith and it won't affect our salvation at all.
My husband has a 4 year history of opposing and questioning my words. I went mure because he refused to stop it. Then he started overtalking my parenting and trying to be like Absalom and usurp authority in the first minutes of me giving kids commands. 9 months asking him to stop and he refuses. I moved out. He acts like it is minor and I am over sensitive and need to get help for being bothered. He says he is helping. I say it is harassment if I ask for it to stop and it doesn’t. I give him permission to step in if I have lost my temper or am in error but he is stepping in when nothing is wrong. Help? Thoughts?
I think you need to talk with a marriage counselor, with or without your husband's participation. Local and in-person if possible. TH-cam comments can't provide much help for these situations.
It’s a type of psychological abuse. It’s a type of gaslighting. It’s not loving behavior, it’s controlling, manipulative and insidious. He won’t change unless he humbled himself completely and fully, vocally admits his abusive behavior. I wouldn’t say divorce him but I’d say dont let him off the hook until he fully repents and makes amends. If he refuses and keeps blame shifting, you need to be very wary. Psychological abuse can in some ways be more damaging than physical. I’m not just saying that, I lived it. You need to tell him he’s being abusive and that’s not ok. I read a book once about boundaries by cloud and Townsend. When you begin to recognize your boundaries and protect them you will start to get back your voice. But one warning, when you begin to learn how your boundaries have been violated, you will become angry-and anger is an excellent gatekeeper but dont let anger overstay it’s welcome. Be anger but sin not. I sincerely hope you find support and clarity and strength through this time.
@@jasonreed2116 agreed 👍 when relationships are out of Gods order it’s doesn’t work. woman become the head and men become the tail is not acceptable biblically but current social behavior in the world will smile about it, like men are stupid. God is mans head and man is woman’s head its really simple. Yes we can ask for advice from a woman and have conversations however, the man has the last word.
I think both parties can be caught in the cycle of emotional abuse. Denial is also a problem and usually a 3rd party is needed to mediate. This is the place where a husband and/or a wife might be weaponizing the Bible.
@@anamericanfriend2367 Abuse is such an inherently subjective term that really can mean a lot of things. People have claimed abuse from as light as "little raising of a voice" to as severe as "battery" - and everything in between. Battery notwithstanding, it usually takes two to tango but men are at a severe disadvantage when courts are involved due to "activism judges", "virtue signalling judges", and the public concept of "believe all women".
@@shadowmist1246 I don't think you understand emotional abuse. It's a pattern of unhealthy behaviors. It's not just one little thing. The basic desire of the abuser is control. It evolves over time and don't realize you're in it until later. It starts innocently perhaps with derogatory comments made to seem playful. An abusive woman might exhibit jealousy of a man's family and friends and the time he spends with them. Things escalate. She might start to control him with emotional outbursts of anger or crying. She'll make him feel he's unreasonable for spending time away from her. She may threaten self harm. It goes on and on. The woman is erratic. The unpredictability causes stress. Do you understand it's the uncertainity of the emotional environment. Women also can undergo this same dynamic but somewhat different. Intimidation is part of the emotional abuse a woman suffers. Neither a woman or man victim is going to fare well in this emotional rollercoaster life. It sucks.
I kine of think about abortion a bit differently now. I still think it is wrong and not good in MOST cases. But... let's say that doctors found a way to keep people from having growing pains. Or to keep people from not growing so they won't have growing pains. Wouldn't you want to not have growing pains if you knew there was a way to stop them?
Abortion is wrong on all cases, though shall not kill. Your analogy doesn't make sense because the nobody is being killed curing growing pains but the baby is being killed in an abortion.
The problem is, that you call a abusive marriage christian. Perhaps you should read the exclusion conditions in the bible and follow these. Abusive and regenerated and saved do not go together. I know, Jesus only got crucified because he distinguished between saved and unsaved. To avoid percecution "we" only must call everyone a christian.
This TH-camr is conflating abuse and divorce. Biblically, it is not very complicated: divorce is the remedy for adultery only and there is a good reason for that: the two who have become are no longer one when someone has become one with someone else. Other marital problems such as "abuse" can be dealt with by separation (stay single) --- whether or not they are Christian.
I must say, I've never thought that David was in the right to flee for his life from Saul. "I will die someday..." But that was in direct contradiction to the God's promises to him. Unbelief.
You can't honestly be THAT dumb. If God promises you something in the future, that doesn't mean you don't use common sense and do YUOR part to stay alive. IF God promises you a wife someday, while you are still single, if during that waiting period, a car goes out of control and starts veering towards you, standing on the sidewalk, are you NOT going to jump out of the way? To just STAND there and Expect God to come down and put an invisible wall between you and the car, would be insane. If God promised David that he would sit on the throne, but then David with FULL Knowledge, Saul was out to kill him, chose to just sit there and let Saul kill him, THAT would be David testing God. Something Jesus himself told Satan not to do.
If the Christian wife has divorced her “Christian”husband because of abuse and has been given counsel to do so but he still claims to be a Christian, according to your above video she is free to divorce. That being said, if he is not to be looked in as a Christian, would you consider her free to marry again? We have counseled her that divorce was permissible in her case but to remain single?? According to 1Cor 7:10-11. You’re thoughts??
Actually true Christianity is not complex at all. Mike Winger has certainly made it seem complicated but the truth in the scriptures is far less complicated. Divorce is only biblically acceptable as a remedy for adultery (Mat 5:32 and 19:9) and there is a good Spiritual reason for that. It's because marriage is 2 becoming 1 (Gen 2:24 and Mat 19:5-6) and when adultery occurs, the two are no longer 1. There are other kinds of marital difficulties but separation (stay single) may be the remedy in those circumstances.
@@seekthetruthandthetruthwil2388Actually, your first statement "On our own it is very complex", while it sounds "religious" on its surface, some biblical principles have not been made obscure for people to understand. Marriage is one of these that should be quite basic. But you might be conflating this with the difficult curcumstances some may be in as a result of flesh being involved --- I will grant you that. That is where grace is most applicable. Marriage is not an obscure concept in the bible and I don't believe God meant for it to be difficult.
@@shadowmist1246 in a marriage it takes God’s Grace for a spouse to act in Love when circumstances scream otherwise. All this stems did to the fact that people enter marriage without the biblical principles and then are at a loss when issues creep in.
@@seekthetruthandthetruthwil2388 I understand however the initiating comment was "Christianity is too complex". I believe it is best not to create complexity where none should exist. Certainly circumstances can be difficult such that God's grace is necessary but it is not the biblical principles of marriage that should be made complicated. But I get what you are trying to convey.
Love Mike! Bless you in Jesus’ name and your ministry to thousands! I am fully convinced that if we fully give ourselves to Christ, and do not think and live in fear, then many more will be able to redeem their marriages. Take the idea of the movie Fireproof remove the corniness and put the Holy Spirit at the center. Enter into fasting and praying for your spouse, lose your life to Christ and believe that His love and truth are far more powerful than sin. Then watch what God does. There’s a bid difference between our own efforts from stress and fear and complete surrender and being led by Holy Spirit. Not saying keep yourself in an abusive situation, I’m saying get to safety, separate and commit to truly seeking God’s heart, power, and plan. He wants to speak, and give you a pure heart for the person and truly lead you by his Spirit.
As much as it might be emphasized by the church,that's fine in theory,but headship simply DOES NOT work that way in practice in the face of the harsh reality in the frigid real world.Simply put;men DO NOT MAKE IT EASY for a wife to trust his headship enough to submit to this.
Churches and marriages are in trouble by not being obedient to Matthew 18.15-17, refusing corporate justice and judgment formally: see Dr Greg Wills. Unfortunately pastor Mike promotes non formal individual efforts (listen here: 4:30). Mediators (18.16) are not to be chosen by individuals but democratically by the church (Acts 6.3).
I don’t see the validity of your point based on the scriptures you quoted. Matthew has nothing to say about who specifically chooses the mediators and Acts is about choosing deacons for who is to wait tables. Neither render the responsibility necessarily directly to the church in every instance of being sinned against by a fellow believer. Are there any other scriptures that you pull that from?
@@cannonbyrd6265The point is that modern churches do not obey Matt 18 in refusing to corporately excommunicate, they do it individually. This doesn't work.
@@razzendahcubenthanks brother, you're absolutely right! But when this fails it becomes a formal church issue. My point with Pastor Mike is that he continues the individualism in 18:16, mediation is a formal congregational activity that begins the excommunication process, brother Mike has it informal. BTW: This idea is legion among denominations stemming from a century of corruption in the ministry, that's why churches are dying in the US.
Though overall Mike Winger’s teaching and positions are Biblical and respectable, I would encourage Mike Winger and other Christians who are seeking to honor God in their marriages and their position on marriage and divorce and the advice they give to listen to Bible teachers such as David Pawson and his teaching on marriage, divorce and remarriage. Though I would not take a formal stance on who is more Biblical regarding this topic, one thing will become evident to everyone who listens to the two different positions (Winger’s vs Pawson’s) is that there is a strict and loose (conservative or liberal) interpretation of God’s view on marriage, divorce and remarriage. We live in an era and in a society where the loose interpretation is predominate. Statistics evaluating the stat of marriage and their longevity bears to the fact many hold to the loose interpretation especially in the churches presiding over repeat marriages. I don’t believe there is one honest pastor who would look at the state of marriage and say it is in excellent shape. It is so pathetic, that I don’t even see and Biblical ideal for which to strive presented within the church and the importance of such covenant. Given the pathetic state of “Christian “ marriages, I now see the importance of faithful Bible teachers to start to reign in the “looseness” of their interpretation in regards to this topic and swing towards David Pawson’s position. For in their loose interpretation, churches, I believe, have gone to the point of presiding over adulterous relationships by remarrying at the very least illegitimately divorced individuals. So I would call on Pastor Winger to respectfully consider his analogies appropriately. In an era where Christians view marriage as dispensable, it is not appropriate to say if your spouse pokes you in your sleep that equates to torture and therefore abuse and therefore grounds for divorce. I believe such statements are reckless to peoples expectation of marriage. For if he is encouraging people that such is grounds for divorce, I hope he is not remarrrying anyone those individuals. For being poked in your sleep by your spouse is not grounds for divorce and any remarriage after divorce on such ground is adultery according to Jesus. It’s time for honest Bible teachers to contend with that possibility.
It’s not the act of poking her while she is sleeping that is torture, but the fact that in doing so he is causing her sleep deprivation, which as Pastor Winger said, causing sleep deprivation is an _enhanced interrogation_ (I.e. torture) technique.
You missed the point…In a culture of no fault divorce, where Christians divorce very flippantly and the majority of pastors are fine remarrying them into adulterous unions, correlating poking someone to prevent them from sleeping to torture is reckless because Christians are more likely to frame innocent actions as torture in our times more than really be going through constant unrelenting unrepentant torture before seeking the only alternative of divorce.
An overly legalistic approach won't solve the problem. Pastor Mike did an exhaustive study (and video) on divorce and remarriage, specifically dealing with David Pawson's position. I highly recommend it.
Check out Lisa Laizure on TH-cam she does "Women's Bible Study" content, you can find the full videos on her channel, website, or app. Its called the "Marriage Questions Conference", Pastor Mike went to an even she was hosting a little bit ago.
@@jasonreed2116 True. I think people need to understand what emotional abuse looks like. Emotional abuse takes the form of ridicule, explosive anger, threats, manipulation, intimidation, controlling behavior. The victim is always wrong, minimizing a person's right to be heard and withholding love, punishing the victim for not "submitting" to the whims of the abuser. The abuser is erratic so the victim lives in fear of the explosion. Threats of rejection and retaliation are common. The victim feels anxiety and uncertainty when the abuser is around.
@@jasonreed2116 Thanks and yes I have directly and indirectly. Relationships with people so abused can also be difficult. I also know that physical abuse is always accompanied by emotional abuse. Emotional abuse can exist on its own with a threat of physical abuse to the victim, their children or even suicide. The victim is made to feel responsible for the abuser's abuse or well being. An example of such an abuser: a friend was blamed by her husband because she contracted COVID. He also tried to isolate her from her family and friends early in their relationship. He plays these mind games with her in that his way is normal and good but hers isn't. It's exhausting dealing with emotional abuse. Unfortunately, I don't see the overwhelming majority of pastors as being equipped to handle counseling for things like this. They generally rely on Biblical platitudes. All it is to me is putting a bandaid on a broken leg.
I would submit that, along the lines of Christ's statements "by their fruits you will know them" and "they will know you belong to me by your love for one another", abuse is NOT a problem in Christian marriages by virtue of the fact that a Christian will not abuse. The so-called Christian marriages where there is an abuse problem are not actually Christian marriages. Also, regarding the meaning of the word "abuse": I'm thinking there are really 2 different definitions: one, outward horrible behavior such as name calling, physical fighting, etc. Probably nearly everybody has done this at some point, at least in childhood, not so much as an adult. Very wrong but not necessarily destructive, EXCEPT alongside: two, determination to manipulate and control the relationship, often but not always using tactics such as verbal/physical abuse. So this more toxic case can and does happen covertly, and is harder to identify & solve.
Christians cannot divorce an unbeliever spouse. You will be the cause for them to stumble.Thats why Paul only allowed the believing to stay separate and remained unmarried or reconcile. 1 corinthians 7 : 10 - 11. But if a unbeliving wants to leave then let it go - 1 corinthians 7 : 15.
Any truly abused spouse in a marriage should avoid the church at all cost. The church will always side with the abuser. The church will guilt you into staying.
Mike is a pastor of a church, saying in this very video that there are certain rare instances where divorce and fleeing are the best decision. So it’s very weird for you to say “churches will always side with the abuser” in a comment section of a video refuting that.
@@christiankreiter I mean can you blame the person for being skeptical? You have both men and women in the comment section sharing experiences about their abusive spouses and how their pastors dismissed them. You have Christians replying to them with Bible verses, telling them they're wrong for leaving. Where's the compassion? Rachael Denhollander has done studies/surveys with abuse survivors who ranked the church among the least helpful when it came to dealing with the abuse they faced. Those are just a few examples but sadly the church in general has not shown itself to be a refuge for people trying to get help for this particular issue.
It is a common misconception that Matthew 18:15-20 is about church discipline. It is not. The "brother" in v15 is a fellow Jew. That brother is gained for the Kingdom if he admits sin. Jesus tells the disciples they should no longer consider the man as a Jew (v17) if he does not admit his sin. The verses that follow (verses 21-35 - the parable of the unforgiving servant) are a response to Peter about his question on continued forgiveness. This whole passage from v15 is the use of law and gospel (total forgiveness for those who acknowledge their sins) and is about church recruitment from the disciples' fellow Jews. As for gentiles today, they need to be taught the law properly before church discipline is needed. As for divorce - Jesus is clear about that issue in the next chapter (19). Today increasing numbers of women are divorcing men because they are hard-hearted. Matthew 19:8 was advice to hard-hearted men in Moses' day. It should also apply to hard hearted women today. They should not marry.
Wasn't this a little bit of stretch - first take him as an unbeliever, than divorce him. I'm afraid someone can abuse this. I like Your other teachings but with this one, I'm not sure. I know, there are difficult situations, but does not apply then- they should separate (not divorce).
In some cases yes, others no. This is a hard issue. If the user is an addict, they need help. If they refuse help the marriage will begin to fall apart. Pornography is mentally cheating in your head before you ever take the step to do so physically, and yes, that is definitely where it leads in the long term. It's severely damaging to the brain as well. Seek help for yourself if you're the addict, and seek help for yourself because you need healing and advice. Seek help from multiple sources like a licensed therapist AND a Christian counselor. Get well rounded advice from both to balance yourself with wisdom
@@morninglynn6281 I know it's a sin that needs to stop especially when my wife and I were still together and I was hiding it from her. I have been getting counsel and doing a purity devotional. Being "single" now, I do tend to justify it being that I use it to relieve lust. I don't feel like an addict as it's anywhere from 3 times a week to one every 2 weeks.
@@jesuslovesyou-matts but your not relieving lust by watching porn, you are giving into it. You are not married to them and you are experiencing their sexuality, it’s wrong…
Not everything in the Bible is black and white you are lazy if you refuse to apply biblical principles. With you're logic pedophilia is okay because the bible never explicitly mentions having sex with children.
2Cor 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?you can be nice, never devorse, never kill, always going to church etc...but you look outside yourself and called REPROBATES.
God/ Holy Spirit doesn't find fault to justify anything. He just advises us on the loving thing to do. Humans have come up with judgment, fault and sin. God is only love. For that reason, the Bible has lots of human reasoning that is not God's.
Lot of the comments on the church here makes me sad. A lot of people are way too quick to diss the bride of Christ. We are part of the same body that we insult here guys. I know wouldn't be happy with people putting down my wife, need to tread carefully before being so quick to put down the church :(
Mike, as a divorced man let me say to those who may be waiting and trying to reconcile I am glad that I gave my now ex wife every chance. She had at least two physical affairs and multiple online affairs and would not stop. Ultimately, behind my back, she moved out of out of our home. The 2ish years this unfolded over literally nearly killed me. I ended up in the ER thinking I had a heart attack from stress. But, now at least I know I tried. If someone reads this working through things with a spouse I want to encourage you. If you succeed you have your love back. If not, through the effort you have kept your integrity. God bless.
Very similar situation over here… sorry to hear what you went through man .
@@stayraddad4638 Very sorry. Praying for you. It took time but in my case although reconciliation did not happen God has worked things to my good. Be strong in the Lord. God bless.
I wound up in the ER ICU with Pulmonary Embolisms and nearly died largely due to the stress and heartache my wife caused in her 4 year acrimonious court battles against me. Many false accusations of abuse, Everything became abuse in her mind, she was really only afraid of being exposed as a liar. She talked about divorce but was so divided in her thinking she never filed. It all ended when she was finally confronted with signing my divorce decree or I would bring multiple felony charges and prison time for what she had done. Now she's been remarried twice in 9 years. I had to realize she was just a Gospel inoculated Church Goer not a believer and no marriage took place on our wedding day.... I still have to take a blood thinner to keep the clots under control.
I totally agree. We, as Christians, swear to God that we have bound ourselves to this person and maintain a Christ centered life. Having to break that promise despite doing everything that God wants us to do to preserve the marriage is devastating. We feel that WE have failed. People keep telling us that it takes two, but the implication is that you must have done something to ruin the marriage. On the contrary, it takes two to make a marriage work. If the other person doesn't want to make it work, there's nothing that you can do except to get closer to God. He will strengthen you and absolve you of guilt knowing that you have made every effort to make the marriage work.
@@tonymiller8826 Family Court functions on law established based on Biblical principles for a Godly people---now used by a pagan people---its a travesty.
Refreshing to hear a teacher embrace the complicated. Too many times we just teach simple rules that cause more hurt than help.
the rules are simple....no divorce and remarriage.....it just cramps our style, and we let that trump what the Bible teaches...
@philipbuckley759
Now, now, Phillip stick with actual scriptural direction rather than your attempt to pull others into your misery.
A big problem is that the church does not exercise church discipline and often times when it does, it is questionable wether it is being done by people who have the wisdom of God or the grace of God. Biblical Mature leadership is lacking in most churches. Pray for Gods grace and truth to be abounding in His people and leadership of His church.
Mike is one of those leaders.
I agree, I went to my elders and they did nothing, I have stopped going to the Church and no one has reached out to me, they talk a good talk, be nice if they could walk a good walk.
Yes, which is sad because what the Bible teaches about that process does not apply when safety is an issue. As evidence of that when King Herod decided go kill Jesus as a baby the angel appeared and said “get that child out of there!” He didn’t say “render unto ceaser…submit to authorities…” The angel said “safety first”. If only more churches followed that.
The danger of this is when churches are siding with the obviously wrong side! Like John MacArthurs church excommunicating and publicity shaming a wife for leaving her husband. .....who was ultimately jailed for physical and sexual abuse of the children! To this day I don't think they've ever apologized for it. And they continue to visit the husband in jail. Convinced it was a wrongly charged crime, I guess????
Cases like that, make a church not necessarily the safest place to seek help from abuse.
My sister experienced that personally.
Too often in an abusive marriage it is the abuse victim who wants to leave and it is actually dangerous to go through the Matt 18 process. I also know a case where the abusive husband insisted he did not want to divorce which made the church feel the wife was the problem.
Jesus didn't leave Matthew 18 open to being merely a suggestion... Why don't we just trust his words, act on them, and let him have the responsibility of the results?
So sad Paula, the church is just not educated enough on abuse in marriage. This is the disaster of the church today. A lot people living in grief.
Most often when the abuser wants to stay in the marriage, it is because they are getting what they want from the spouse-- CONTROL. She is too afraid to leave probably for MANY reasons. The abuser usually has low self esteem, frustrations with how their life is going, and poor role models. The abused is their coping mechanism. Demonstrating power is this relationship, gives them the APPEARANCE of being able to control at least one thing in their lives. These "He said, She said," situations often involve collateral damage. The Abuser threatens harm to anyone the Abused cares about, even the Abuser. They often say that they will end their own lives. That sounds like it should be something you want, but the person has been convinced that NO ONE else loves the person but them and they are incapable of taking care of themselves. They hurt them BECAUSE they LOVE them so much. This scenario is in almost every situation. And if you do get them arrested, the abused bails them out. This continues from generation to generation. It's like trying to get addicts to quit. They've been brainwashed and convinced that it is their fault. If they see this pattern all of their lives, parents, grandparents, brothers, etc., they believe it. Good role models are hard to find. The church needs to provide that.
Yes. The spouse wants to keep the other pressed down. Its so sad. And as you said, the wife is viewed as unsubmissive and rebellious. When in reality she is on the verge of checking in to a behavioral facility because of the mental anguish she faces.
And that is where protect the innocent, ensure justice, stop oppression, etc come into play. If 20-30 men come over to that house and safely escort the abuse victim away to a safer place, it does make it a bit intimidating for the abuser to try to continue....
I remember sitting and watching his original elongated video on separation and divorce, and I remember him using the example of a husband continuously poking his wife to keep her awake as an example of torture. I thought that was a really good example. And I remember writing in the comments section that I had been continuously abused both physically and mentally by my first wife. We had sought out six different counselors, all Christian, and she progressively got worse to the point that she did physical damage to both me and our home. Our church was of no help, and even blamed me because I was supposed to be the spiritual leader of our home, so I must’ve done something to provoke her anger and abuse. The worst part was that she was raised in the church, and I had only been a Christian for a few years at that point. Through months of prayer, studying Scripture, and seeking spiritual guidance in my church, I had to work through this myself. Fortunately, when it was all over, my mother was my major supporter, who was the one who witnessed and lead me to Christ begin with. Looking back, especially watching videos like this and continuing to study scripture, I’m convinced that this was one of those rare circumstances that Mike Winger talks about. What concerns me though, is that in most situations, including in a lot of Christian films, they portray the husband as being the aggressor and the wife as the victim. I realize that over 90% of the cases of abuse involve the husband towards the wife, but I’d like to see someone address those situations where the wife abuses the husband. I understand it’s very rare, but it does happen, and I think that wives who abuse their husbands know this, and because it’s not dealt with in the church, they take advantage of this, and they continue to abuse their husbands, knowing that it’s unlikely that they will leave them, especially if they have children.
You are so right. I’m sorry for the abuse you went through at the hands of your wife. I had a pastor who was abused by his wife. Oddly enough, she was a childhood friend. He refused to divorce her even though cops had been called to their house because of her abuse.
it isn't 90% lol, it's much closer to even, it just rarely gets reported among men. That being said, mike's wrong here, scripture's very clear, without sexual immorality you have ZERO grounds to divorce your wife as far as the Lord's concerned. A wife literally CANNOT divorce her husband according to scripture, under any circumstance, she can only separate and remain unmarried, or reconcile with her husband. Otherwise she commits fornication, and the man she's remarried to, commits adultery.
I'm not saying this to be obtuse, but we HAVE to put God first, always, his laws over our wants, it's awful that your wife treated you that way, unfortunately it would be seen as YOU being at fault if you properly disciplined your wife in these moments, this is one of the problems with society no longer being Christian. Firstly according to scripture, you can take a second wife (as long as you haven't unjustly divorced your previous wife), and i mean concurrently, so whether your wife chose to separate or not, you'd be fine marrying a second wife, obviously if she committed adultery you could still divorce her, and marry another woman also. That being said finding a Christian woman in these times, who after being raised by the worlds standards instead of Gods, who recognizes and admits that polygamy is 100% permitted by God, LITERALLY all throughout scripture, and also in the new testament, will be difficult however, since even most churches seem to have false teachings on this, reading things into scripture that simply aren't there, which is unfortunate.
This leaves your only likely recourse, to separate for a while, in the hopes of reconciling and healing your marriage, since in this society bringing your wife to heel, would probably be considered some kind of abuse on your part... you could instead set up a tent or something along those lines for her (depending on the size of your property) and simply refuse to allow her back into the house until she's willing to submit to you as to Christ, as the Lord commands her to do, that would potentially be a form of discipline that's not only righteous, doesn't deprive her of her food, clothing, or sexual rights, and yet reinforces the BIBLICAL TRUTH that YOU are the MASTER of your home, YOU are the authority in your home, and this kind of LAWLESS behaviour will not be tolerated..... Anyway my brother, by the grace of God i truly hope you work a way through this, but i pray her actions don't lean you towards sinning against God, his laws always stand above mans law, and his ways, above our own. God bless and keep you brother.
I'm terribly sorry you had to go through that. I'm thankful that God helped you work it out through the Bible.
Probably men are more often the abuser, but we can never know the true proportion because so much goes unreported. Regardless, I would say that it doesn't make a difference who the abuser is. If they refuse to repent, they should be treated the same.
according to a study by harvard, 70% of the time in abusive relationships the abuser is the woman
the reason it seems like men are the aggressors is because we subconsciously lower the standards for women, were more willing to overlook abusive behaviors in women compared to men
@@InitialPC did they make a distinction between physical and emotional abuse? Men might be more likely to be physical, and women emotional. But I suppose some women might take advantage of the fact that "he can't hit back..."
I appreciate Pastor Mike tackling this difficult subject. I have noticed in the last few years that the term “abuse” is sometimes used rather carelessly. Not all bad behaviour is abuse, and it belittles those who have been truly abused. It still needs to be addressed of course, but is not necessarily the grounds for separation or divorce. Having grown up in a household witnessing grievous spousal abuse, I’m probably jaded…
Divorce is never a remedy for abuse. Separation may be the remedy for abuse. Divorce is the remedy for adultery.
@@shadowmist1246 yes, of course. I was being general. The point I was trying to make is that these days it seems bad behaviour is commonly called abuse and used as an excuse to not remain living under the same roof.
@@shadowmist1246 Biblical "separation" is the same as the end of the marriage.
@@XeenMusic In any event, all semantics aside, adultery severs the oneness and hence is the biblical grounds for divorce. That is the meaning behind Matthew 5:32 and 19:9.
@@shadowmist1246 Actually, it's "sexual-immorality." That would also include beastality, homosexuality, etc. for divorce.
A friend of mine is struggling with this, being unsure whether his wife is still a christian. Please pray for him!
I don’t even want to get into this. Abuse in marriage is not normal marital conflict. When I went for help I was accused of being the unbeliever. I was told that I was the problem. My attitude was wrong. “You need to repent. I am now divorced. And living 1000 miles away. Marital abuse is a crime. And not one man being held up by gun point outside a convenience store could do to the gunman what the church does to the abuse victims. Get real church!
The church has a reputation for overlooking crimes and letting abuse be forgiven and continue. It’s a pretty common thing. It’s getting ridiculous.
Amen!!! Get real church. This us happening in our church and many are crying out.
So true. My mom who was the sole bread winner of our family growing up was beat up by my step dad who stayed home everyday watching TV bec he couldnt keep a job. When my mom finally divorced him 13 yrs later, she was accused of being sinful bec "God hates divorce" negating the fact my mom and us were being physically, mentally, emotionally, and even spiritually abused. That so called church loved him so much bec he was "an officer in the church" and gave side eyes to my mom.
@@LAKatwoman God is Just and a lover of justice. God hates divorce, and yet He still made a provision for it, knowing we would sometimes make poor decisions and need that grace.
How many generations of Israel did God divorce unto their foreign gods/sin because of their idolatry? He hates it, but it isn't His _only_ value.
Thanks for sharing this, Mike.
This has been my stance for a long time. Too many want a cut and dry, black and white answer, but a nuanced, individual approach is more than appropriate.
Marriage has, in many cases, become an idol, superseding appropriate Godly, Biblical Principles.
I think the issues of Church Disciple (or lack of) and a bug misunderstanding of Evangelism (how Christians interact with Unbelievers) has fueled this problem big time.
It took me a really long time to come to terms with my divorce. I knew he’d been abusive but not overtly violent. I knew he’d been unfaithful as well and so I knew I had biblical reason to leave. But it wasn’t until many years later that I recognized how insidious and damaging his abusive behavior was. He had been eroding my confidence and identity and even my ability to believe I deserved love. I’d been lonely and depressed and traumatized by his behavior. He lied to me and about me. It wasn’t until I learned about narcissist that I recognized who he was and what he did to me. He’s still in some ways emotionally abusing my children but there isn’t much I can do except talk to them about it and limit their involvement.
My church abandoned me when I left my ex even though some of them knew how he treated me. I didn’t tell everyone about his unfaithfulness because for some reason I was still protecting him. He told everyone we knew lies and they believed him and ostracized me. They all became secondary abusers. But I realized that they’d all been his friends and I only had a couple people who were actually my friends who knew the truth and stayed on my side. I had been so blind to how he had isolated me.
I’m in a much better place, I’m remarried and happy and cared for.
Unless he cheated, you didn't have a biblical reason to leave. Jesus says, "except in the case of sexual immorality, not to get divorced" not. "except in the case of sexual immorality or narssasistic behavior."
There are two sides to every story. When my marriage was failing, my wife would make almost identical claims to what you wrote in your first paragraph. She made the matter all about my sin, used all kinds of psychology terms to label me, etc. But people who knew the situation knew that the matter was much, much deeper than "Husband cheated on wife. The end."
Heck, she would even say that her church "abandoned" her because they wouldn't cater to her lopsided narrative. She left our church, rejected biblical reconciliation, told me to leave, and we got divorced. I am not enslaved to her. I repented. I sought reconciliation. She did not.
My point is that it is easy to tear down the person with the "bigger" or more overt sin. I'm not saying you didn't make the right choice, but these "I'm the victim and my spouse was the abuser" stories sometimes aren't as cut and dry as we make them sound.
@@christopherneedham9584 Winger has a fantastic 3 hour video refuting that false interpretation of scripture.
Infidelity is not an automatic "you're free to leave" card nor is infidelity the only reason one is allowed to leave a marriage.
@@razzendahcuben There are two reasons, You are married to an unbelieving spouse who will not allow you to stay, or will not live with you. Or there is sexual immorality.
Just because of abuse or whatever is not allowed in the scripture.
And just "treating someone as an unbeliever" isn't good enough to walk away from a marriage. And it definitely is not grounds for remarriage.
i'm terribly sorry that you went through that, your husband didn't treat you as he should've, which is vile and awful.... however the TRUTH is scripture doesn't permit you to divorce your husband, nor is mikes teaching on this accurate, since paul clearly says (i say, not the Lord) and then says if your HUSBAND was an unbeliever, and left you, that you're no longer bound, not that if you don't consider him a believer, that you can leave.... However paul right before that says this "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife." (obviously we know that a husband can divorce a wife for sexual immorality/adultery/fornication, but not for any other reason) however the only thing a wife can do, is to separate from her husband even in those circumstances, THAT is what scripture says.
It says if you separate from your husband, and get remarried, you're now committing fornication, and the man who's remarried you, is now committing adultery, so you've now put both yourself, and him in the practice of sin from what i can tell, since everyday you both continue committing fornication and adultery unrepentantly, and believe me i take no pleasure in telling you that....
I"ll list the full verses below, i'm sorry to have to be the one to shed the lords light on this subject, since i'm sure it will grieve you to know the truth, and you've already greatly suffered, however once you know, you can then take the steps to stop sinning against the Lord and repent, and you can free your current "husband" from that sin also, by obeying the Lord thy God. Now with how messy all this is i recommend much reading of scripture and prayer, since where things may or may not stand now considering i don't know the details of your divorce, could be quite messy.....
It's not going to be easy, but we can't just pretend that scripture doesn't say what it says, THESE are the Lords commands on the subject, if we choose to do what WE want to do, over what HE says to do, then is he truly our Lord? or are we going to be counted amongst the "lawless" that Christ speaks of in mathew 7:21.... none of us will be perfect, we all stumble, and the holy spirit will bring us to repentance, but we are to submit to God, and our Lord Jesus Christ in all things, and that includes marriage, and divorce. If we KNOW what scripture says, but decide "oh well, i'm going to go my own way on this one", do we truly have a heart for God? with scripture some things are easier than others to understand, and none of us are perfect in understanding, some things however are clear, and difficult, but as Christ said, straight is the way, and narrow is the gate that leads to life, and FEW there be that find it.
I hope i've not been discouraging in sharing the truth of scripture with you, in fact i aim to do the opposite, and use scripture as it was intended, for correction, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. I know this will be very hard for you, but i sincerely pray you submit to the Lord, and repent, and work out in the spirit of truth what the correct way forward is in your situation, bringing to remembrance zacchaeus, who upon realizing his sin against the Lord declared if he had cheated any man, he'd pay him back 4 times. God bless and keep you, i'll post the relevant verses.
Matthew 5:31-32 It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
- 1 Corinthians 7:10-16
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
To the rest, I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.
For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
Again may the Lord bless you and keep you, and guide you in understanding, repentance, and the correct way forward in this situation, as you and your husband were both Christians already when this occurred, all praise and glory to the Lord thy God, in Jesus name.
I was in a bad marrage, I had depression and anxiety and honestly wasnt a very good husband because of it even though i tried my best and several years after being told I was abusive to justify the divorce I'm now realising that she was very abusive toward me throughout our marrage and that messed with my mind in a big way. I put up with behaviour that destroyed who I was and didn't realise it for a decade.
God is good though, two days after she told me she wanted to divorce after an entire year of a separation in which she implied the separation was only temporary God gave me the gift of praying in tongues which was something I've wanted my whole life but have never been able to do. Looking back now God set me free even though I fought against it every step of the way.
It can be rough in the moment, but God uses even sinful people in their sin to accomplish His purposes. God used the sinfulness of pharaoh - to protect Israel from other nations.
God allowed a bunch of people to listen to slander about me - because He wanted to protect me from being under the authority of a false teacher.
Tyrant, intrusive, enmeshed in-laws makes marriage complicated too. If your spouse is too enmeshed with his mother to see that her involvement is unhealthy, and if she is his source for knowledge of this subject and he refuses to hear anyone else including the church, or Genesis, Ephesians, or Matthew 19:5 on leaving and cleaving and what leaving IS (multiple calls from Mama and Face Time with her once or more a day is not physically living together, but JUST AS disastrous), it's a sad situation.
I would say that goes for a wife who refuses to separate from her family. My son is going through a divorce right now. She blames it on his depression. I say you don’t have a marriage when every evening after work and every Saturday and Sunday afternoon she is going to her parents instead of spending time with her husband. My son is backslidden and I don’t know if she was ever saved.
And that’s why you vet people before marriage.
@@thejourney1369 - If man's spirit is not sanctified (made Holy or made clean) by God's Spirit in daily life, nobody is saved.
2 Thessalonians 2: 13, " But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth "
Belief in the truth: Belief in Resurrected Christ
Sanctification of man's spirit by God's Holy Spirit: God makes a person more and more like Jesus Christ in character everyday of their lives when they live in obedience to Jesus' teachings.
I'm actually going through a very similar situation. My husband treats his mom like she's his wife, her needs are more important, he say in decisions are taken over mine, etc. We are discussing divorce because now he wants to get his mom a house before we even do (despite us having a lot of debt). I cannot agree with this, but my husband pushes it and says if I don't agree he wants to divorce. Will this divorce set me free as Mike discusses?
@@magdasim9456 Aww, on your situation. That's TERRIBLE. I'm really, really sorry. 😟 As for your question, Deuteronomy 24:2 says the wife is free to go and marry another man:
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. *2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.*
Thank you, it's so important to address this and a lot of Bible teachers just DON'T!
I went to my pastor for counseling and he said that I just need sleep. I worked the night shift, came home, fed and dressed the kids and brought them to the babysitter. My husband would pick up the kids from the babysitter and put them in the bed with me so I was extremely sleep deprived. He didn’t work. He thought that having a babysitter was child abuse. It escalated to the point where he had already made attempts on my life and was psychologically abusing the kids including putting the eldest in a psych ward and stole all of her belongings. But Christians still say I was wrong to divorce him.
You did the right thing. You and your children are worth protecting, and that's exactly what you did. This might not mean much, coming from an atheist, but when someone has made attempts on your life, then that's not a safe environment for anyone. I'm sorry your church didn't support you. Safety is first for a reason, and your children will thank you some day, whether you have the church's blessing or not. My heart goes out to you 💙😢
@@nicholemoore2448 my church supported me when they knew the whole story. Family members were harsh and some still are.
@@shellyscholz1256 I'm glad you did start to see some support from the church, I'm sorry some family members are still harsh. I hope you can find healing and good friends who are willing to help and be there for you.🌸
God doesn’t want you to go though physical abuse, but a separation must happen first then you must pray for that spouse. Divorced shouldn’t had been the first thing, but separation should of took place.
@@Pauwwhh separation came first and he moved in with his mistress.
I’ll tell you how we apply this!
When they go “ leave the marriage” and don’t want to reconcile and continue to abuse.
You are free
No more to be said
The End
I've never been married, but this is a good perspective and understanding for when I hear this discussed in the future. I've generally heard divorce is permissible in the case of adultery, abuse, or abandonment, but this actually explained well why abuse and abandonment are akin to the person being unChristian.
Thanks, Mike, for making this video. I learned a lot from it. I used to think that if an abuser wouldn't repent, the couple should separate but not marry another. Now I see that would leave the victim in limbo forever, while the abuser would probably end up remarrying.
Remember that old saying, "Once bitten, twice shy"? For me, at least, it fits. No desire to revisit the whole scenario, or potential thereof!!
If the abuser remarries, then even if you believe sexual immorality is the only good reason for divorce, the abuser has committed such a thing by putting his/her spouse away without such a cause and proceeding to marry another.
The abused would then be 100% free to remarry.
Just some food for thought!
@@tt-cy1hb Makes sense.
The whole thing is confusing to me, I would love more clarity on when do you apply the not remarrying another part then? Just seems like a loophole so no one ever has to follow the verse. But maybe I'm misunderstanding the arguement.
there is no license to remarry for people who entered into a COVENANT with both spouse, and GOD that said “till death”…separation or legal divorce is already “out” enough… if we look further into the New Testament we find answers.
“And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.”
1 Corinthians 7:10-15 KJV
The prescription for divorced or separated people, is to be reconciled (when/if possible) or REMAIN UNMARRIED. Some may think this is somehow unfair, but we chose our spouse. If it turns out we didn’t choose well, or “they changed” unfortunately that is our cross we must bear. We all have one/some, but that will be a major one for folks who get into these unfortunate unions.
The absolute BEAUTY of this unfortunate situation, is that now you can live for God more focused!!! I personally don’t think I would want to be married again should my husband die. 🤷🏽♀️ the Lord would have to tell me for a certainty that that’s what he wanted me to do.
“For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.”
Romans 7:2-3 KJV
Question: Abuser goes "crazy" and threatens to kill people in the church and does scary, dangerous things. The church is too scared of him to do any kind of "church discipline". Wife flees and gets "help" herself because the abuser refuses to get "help" for his mental illness, etc. She files for a "protection order" and only "supervised visits" for the kids but the state says she can not get a "legal separation" for more than 2 years....and then MUST file for divorce. In order for her and the kids to be safe then, she is forced to get a divorce. What is she to do if she feels divorce is wrong?
The abusive spouse doesn't WANT to leave, though. I married twice. My first husband was a pastor and he was abusive in every way except beating me. He was perfectly happy with the situation, was confronted, cried crocodile tears and three days later, was abusing again. I stupidly remarried because I rebounded and was live bombed by a guy who said he was a Christian. He was not physically abusive, but he was addicted to porn, had a personality disorder which brought with it the inability to take responsibility or have remorse for actions and even his family said there was something wrong with him, which I found out in the middle of our divorce. Again, he didn't want to leave.
I've struggled with whether leaving my second husband was a sin because he didn't hit me and he wasn't intentionally doing the abuse as far as I could tell. BUT he's definitely a non believer, calls God an a hole and while he's working with me well with the kids (more team players now that we're divorced) and being a pretty good dad, he definitely was too disordered to be a husband. He was too disordered to know that he was abusive and passive aggressive and such. So I struggle daily knowing if I sinned or not. I hope not, but I don't know.
In any case, not remarried now and am just focused on the kids.
I'm so sorry to hear this, Sister. May the Lord give you strength and wisdom.
I feel God's compassion for you. I'm so sorry that both of those men were like that to you. You don't deserve to be treated in such ways by men. I'm not saying that you sinned but if it bothers you frequently you can always go to God in private and just spend time with Him talking to Him about your feelings and ask Him for His comfort and healing. Ask Him to reveal to you the truth and remove any deceptions that may be attacking you. God bless you sister.
I’m in this Now, it’s soo painful!
Spouse not A believer and he’s abusive.. he refuses ANY help whatsoever!
Get out of the relationship. You are worth protecting!
If I were you I would get out. Abusers rarely ever change their ways
@@nicholemoore2448 Thank you, 🙏🏻My heart is Broken in many pieces!
I’m leaning on God.. ! 🌸
@@las8883 I’m in the beginning of the process, 🙏🏻 Thank you 🌸🥲
@@mystrength5640 I'm glad to hear that. I pray you'll be safe and God will continue to guide you ❤️
This whole divorce and remarriage thing can't ever be applied when most all churches won't even think with any type of commen sense on this subject....my wife's ex tried to kill hee twice yet her family came against her when she left him for me..she was a battered woman and I was backslidden....it is what it is, we were wrong for doing things the way we did but nobody ever even told this guy he was wrong for doing ehat he did, she fled the city she was in with my stepson and he never seen one day in jail and is even working under the table to avoid child support....
A just civil response would have freed her from that difficult moral situation.... Sadly, the Church in large has shrunk back and allow evil to claim principality over our civil spheres.
@user-tf1oo9rj6u I mean even just a christian family in general should know to protect their own......ive been together with my wife 11 years now, my stepson is about to go to college with honors and my wife has a smile on her face which she never had before me and we are happy, we've been to the valley of the shadow of death and came out battered but not destroyed man, we have a testimony but ppl dont see passed the valleys, funny thing is they cannot see the valley they're in, they can't see their own sins.....the legal system is a joke too but the ignorance in the church pisses me off to no end because they have no mercy from anyone, in alot of Christians minds everyone goes to hell but them and im very aware of my sins and don't try and cover them with excuses ijs I'm not perfect like everyone else, shoot ive failed I need jesus christ.
@@chaboi7 In the New Testament it says that if someone who doesn't provide for their family (when it's in their power to do so), and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Often abusers will fail to provide for those in their care and I don't just mean the provision of tangible items like a roof, food and clothing but also protection and safety. Yeah, the church's response to this issue has historically, and still is, appalling.
In Matthew 19 the Pharisees were asking Jesus it it was lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason. Jesus' response was to MEN (not to women) who were divorcing their wives for trivial reasons which in itself was a form of abuse/abandonment (hardness of heart) as, in many cases, it would leave her destitute (still happens today). In Jesus' time the law was being used as an excuse to allow men to treat their wives unfairly. This is the reason why Jesus tells the Pharisees (self righteous followers of the law lacking in compassion) that it was not God's original plan for men to dispose of their wives. However, since sin came into the world there is, at times, a practical need for divorce, but it's never for superficial reasons. I believe that the reason Jesus just mentioned adultery is because at that time it was the only serious sin a wife could commit against her husband. Therefore, Jesus' words were in defence/protection of women but they've been twisted to now make them mean that she is to stay with an abusive spouse. Modern interpretation of this passage makes it a universal two way street even though Jesus was only speaking to men who were abusing the law for their own selfish ends. He was also referring to a narrow set of circumstances: He was chastising husbands who were treating wives unfairly. He was not speaking to women who were being abused. The thing also to remember is that, at that time, the pagan nations treated their women as property whereas Jews were to treat women as human beings who, under Jewish law, had rights and not being divorced for trivial reasons was supposed to be one of them since being married, at that time, meant that she would be protected and provided for. At that time there were quite a few Jewish men who disliked not being able to do as they pleased with their wives (like the pagans) and therefore tried to twist the law to accomodate their desires (to discard a wife for whatever reason) and Jesus was calling them out. This is the meaning of that text. It's not meant as a forever law/rule set in stone to apply to all situations for all eternity. What pisses me off too is that no wisdom or discernment (particularly from the leadership) is applied to these cases and, as a result, I have lost trust and faith in the church. I've seen firsthand the amount of damage that DV can do to generations of people (including falling away from the church and Christianity altogether). If only the church would act like Jesus and grow a pair and call abusers out. Instead, in many cases, they provide a safe haven for abusers and ostracise victims. Beyond shameful. Am glad to hear that you and your wife found each other and are now in a happy marriage.
@anta3612 hey sorry to reply late, bro if you would sit with me and listen to everything I've been through in church it'll make your head spin......here's one, there was a Preacher from Florida, very famous im the Hispanic world and he was a powerful singer for the lord and he was invited to churches all over the world & had a few cd's, anyways this guy gets caught literally showing his 5-ish year old son how to take pictures up the skirts of the Christian women, he was caught on camera and the ppl around him even ran him down, not even a year later he was being invited to the church I grew up in again and when I spoke out against him I was attacked relentlessly by the Christians there saying I wasn't forgiving......im like this guy has money & fame & talents but he also is demanding my trust after everything he did, naw not for me.
@@chaboi7 I believe you. The concept of forgiveness is misunderstood and tends to get abused in Christian circles. Nowhere in the bible are we commanded to trust and, while forgiveness can be granted even in the absence of repentance from the other person, trust has to be won back and that can only happen when there is genuine repentance and the offender is making a serious effort to mend their ways. Even then, depending on the nature of the offence, trust may never be regained and it may never be possible to restore fellowship with that person. Once broken, trust is difficult to restore and it is unreasonable (even abusive) to expect us to. It also doesn't say in the bible that we are not allowed to remove ourselves from harm's way (or remove the harm from ourselves) and, when we do, this is not indicative of unforgiveness. There is a serious lack of wisdom and discernment in the church and manipulative and abusive people use this to their advantage in order to keep harming people. I hear you about being attacked for speaking up. When my child was 5 years old she was molested by someone from church. I reported him to the police and I was told by the pastor that I was being spiteful and vindictive! How twisted is that? Luckily the abuse was discovered right away (it didn't go on and on) and my swift intervention helped my child to not have lasting scars from the incident. I also got professional psychological help for her (as the church was useless) which also helped in a swift recovery. However, the backlash from the church was astounding. Not only was I attacked for reporting the perpetrator to the police, I was also told that I was being sinful for getting secular counselling for my child. In hindsight I still believe it's the best thing I could have done. Just think if I'd done what the church recommended which was "forgive" (their version: in other words take no protective action/act like it was no big deal/nothing had happened), get no professional help and instead turn to the church for "counselling" (which would have involved a lecture to "forgive"). That was their solution! I was even told that the reason this happened in the first place was probably because I must have some sin in my life which, according to the pastor, was made evident by the way I handled the situation by not "submitting" to the church (meaning I didn't follow their twisted/damaging counsel). In the end I did forgive the perpetrator (not easy when it's your child) but I did so privately and I pray for his repentance (I don't know if he ever did repent). I think the reason I was able to forgive was because my child didn't suffer any lasting and serious consequences (again: thanks to swift intervention and protective measures taken to restore safety). However, if given the chance, it doesn't mean I'd let him anywhere near my child ever again. As for that church? They showed their true colours and I walked away. I still believe in Jesus but the church? Most (and I have been quite a few) have turned out to be havens for all sorts of corruption and have showed a total lack of wisdom, discernment and even just plain common sense. After many years I've come to the conclusion that few churches are healthy and those who protect abusers do so because, fundamentally, they themselves are abusive.
I remember someone who had been a youth teacher in the church, but took over a year away to travel around the world. The pastor at church knew that someone in the church had been living a life against the laws of God but did not want to do it. The pastor waited until the person who went away and demanded that person handle it, when they returned. The person said, I am not on the board of the church anymore and even if I were, I have not been here while this was happening. Therefore, it is not my responsibility. You have to do it yourself. What do you think? As a person in the same position as this person was in the past. I think that the pastor should deal with it.
When the Lord hardens the heart of an unbelieving spouse and the unbeliever departs, it is the Lord's will. The believing spouse has been freed
The lord doesn’t harden the heart the enemy does. God allow people to have free will. God will never force anyone to change, but we must bless them and continue to pray for them.
@@Pauwwhh. Have you read about Pharoah.
@@laureah21 I think it means without His Grace, we do what we will which unfortunately is following our evil inclination. I believe He is active when we behave with kindness.
@andreiamitroaie Agreed, but God also does that when they are already hardened / in rebellion. Like giving them a delusion, He does so when they already reject Truth. God hardened pharaoh's heart after he had chosen to harden his own heart multiple times.
@@MaintDocs Mike has shared on this elsewhere. Very good walk through of Romans 9-11. Worth a watch....
Hey pastor love your work. Idk if you might want to show the difference between misuse and abuse. That might help with the definitions to give more clarity of what people do in relationships.
Two local churches closed their doors and went out of business after the leadership of those churches helped my wife falsely accuse me of abuse.
All the while our children told all who would listen, "We hope Mom & Dad don't get divorced, but if they do, we want to live with Daddy!"
Our Pediatrician referred my wife to a Psychiatrist. After my wife had 15 months of out patient care, I was asked to hire a lawyer to get my wife committed to a mental hospital.
The Psychiatrist at the Mental Hospital refused to talk with the Pediatrician. The Pediatrician refused to talk with the Psychiatrist.
Once the divorce process began I had from the first day, custody of my children. It was an open and shut case. My wife used about six lawyers in total. I used one, winning sole custody of the children my wife was abusing.
My former denomination tells me I am no longer qualified to be a Pastor since I am divorced but the 25 year old kid Pastor who was the first to believe her lies about me is still allowed to be a Pastor.
I'm sincerely saddened for you! People readily take sides without fully considering the issues! You are one strong person!
Pastorart1974, I can understand your feeling of betrayal and anger. It is hard to understand why God would allow something like this to happen. Especially, when the people who believed something so horrible about you should have known better. Known you better. As a Christian, we believe things that are taught in the Bible and infer something that isn't actually there. I believed that by living our lives in a certain way, we were guaranteed to have a good life. Sort of like fairy tales. "And they all lived happily ever after." My ex wanted a divorce. I couldn't figure out what I did wrong. I have been a Christian since I was 5 years old. I always tried to do what Jesus said to do. My father told me that I was too nice. Apparently, my insistence on doing the right thing was difficult for others. Intimidating. Anyway, my whole church knew that he was seeing someone else. I was blind sided. I knew something was wrong, but I would have never believed that he was unfaithful. He was a Deacon, a Christian. I didn't believe it until my son told me. He had taken my son on one or more of their dates. What you have to understand is that this is about faith. My faith. My whole world was shaken. Everything that I believed, everything that I knew, was in question. My identity disappeared. I wasn't supposed to be in this situation. All of the promises that I had heard all of my life went up in smoke. I ended up homeless, jobless, broke, and childless. Why? Thirty years later, I don't have the full answer. I do know that God allowed this to happen to teach me. To shape me into the person that He wants me to be. Up until then, my life had been fairly easy. Afterward, I had to depend upon God. God wants us to be in close communication with him, to know that he is always there. He will provide the things that you need. And he wants you to know that there is ALWAYS a reason for whatever you are going through. Just open yourself up to be aware of what lesson he is teaching you. It could be one or many. There's a reason why YOU have your children. Children are precious. Before you act remember that you are representing God in your children's eyes. What are they seeing? I pray for you and your children and will to do so for as long as I can. Your sister in Christ. 🙏 🙏 🙏
God bless you sir and your children.
As a pastor, you should be “above reproach.” So it makes sense that in this scenario you were asked to step down.
@@Rachel0731 Whose actions are you referring to? The false accusations of the other church members or the innocence of the falsely accused pastor?
I know the Bible says to use church discipline and I agree with that--but what if the abuser is also extremely vindictive and will retaliate against the person they are abusing, when their evil is exposed and they are embarrassed and humiliated? Most abusers are retaliaters as well.
Church discipline is for believers who mess up. Abusers aren't believers and this is the reason why:
John 13:35
"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Definition of love according to the Bible:
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Abuse and love are opposites. Therefore you cannot be a genuine Christian and be an abuser. While none of us are perfect, and we all stumble and fall, the true believer is teachable, will allow God to convict him/her of sin/wrongdoing, will repent, will seek to make amends and ask God for the grace to do better. We are all a work in progress and we are to be patient with one another. However, this is not the case with abusers. Abuse is about systematic power and control the aim of which is to lord it over others in a self serving way to the detriment of others.
Lets look at the biblical definition of love and compare it to the mindset of an abuser:
Patience: abusers will lash out if they don't get their way (no patience)
Kind: abusers tend to be cruel and harsh
Envy: many abusers feel like they received a bad deal in life (envious of those who have it better) which is often why anger is always festering just below the surface ready to erupt at the slightest provocation (things not going their way)
Boasting: abusers like to be seen as good people to the outside world: who they are in private is very different to their public façade.
Proud: abusers have fragile egos which are easily injured. This is a result of pride
Dishonouring others: this is an abusers daily bread and butter. They constantly dishonour those closest to them
Self-seeking: abusers are selfish and self serving to the detriment of those closest to them.
Is not easily angered: an abuser's anger is very easily triggered
It keeps no record of wrongs: abusers have a very long memory when it comes to the wrongdoing of others towards them (even if they are just perceived wrongs). Abusers perceive themselves as victims (everyone else is always doing them wrong).
Does not delight in evil: many abusers take pleasure in causing harm and misery to those closest to them because it reinforces their sense of control.
Rejoices with the truth. abusers are liars because they put on a mask for the world thus hiding their true nature: only those closest to them know who they really are.
It always protects: abusers do not protect those in their care if anything they put them in harm's way
Always hopes: the fact that abusers are about power and control means that they don't have faith or hope (faith is the substance of things hoped for)
Always perseveres. here it's talking about persevering when things get difficult. Abusers create misery for others while taking the easy route for themselves and therefore they aren't perseverers.
In order to qualify as an abuser these traits need to be systematic (not merely going through a tough season) and be present most of the time for most of the person's life. As we can this type of person does not love and therefore cannot be a true Christian although they may, and usually do, outwardly say and do all the right things in order to appear to be a Christian to those who don't know them intimately. They really need to be treated as unbelievers unless/until they genuinely repent and seriously work hard on changing (which takes time and a lame "sorry" doesn't cut it). However, according to statistics only 3% change their behaviour or are willing to do the necessary work to achieve long lasting change. Therefore, claims by an abuser that they've repented and changed need to be viewed with extreme caution as they are known to do and say whatever they have to (in other words they lie) to avoid consequences and once the threat to their image/status/control has passed they end up becoming more abusive than ever.
Wow, that's the first time I ever heard of a situation like mine, with the sleep deprivation poking. I sleep on the couch now, but I spent a good 18 years or so getting fingers poked in my eyes and ears all night long. Anyway, having my life full of narcissistic abuse by my dad, boyfriends, both marriages, it baffles my mind that an actual real Christian would abuse their spouse. I don't believe for a second that this kind of abuse is rare. I used to think that , until it kept happening to me by every one I know, even my brother and so called friends in highschool, Narcissism is everywhere. What I believe is rare and extreme is a good marriage where people don't fight everyday. I can't even picture having a relationship with anyone that is normal, what would that even look like. Humankind is inherently selfish and cold hearted. Also, that things like that just happens but it's not abuse?🤷 I have serious reservations if my husband dies (because I can't leave), if I'm going to get married again, if any form of abuse is considered normal behavior in a marriage. No thanks, I'll stay single. I tried the reconcile thing, it was nothing but a cold spoken contract that we wouldn't have any more relationships with other people. While it kept the peace, somewhat, there is no such thing as a relationship with a malignant narcissist. I'm living with him so I'm not homeless and I can raise my son. As much as he lets me. He absolutely refuses to leave, yet threatens to kick me out constantly. But he won't because I have income.
It gets more complicated when the husband suffers depression and mental disorders and leaves
And ever MORE complicated when the husband suffers depression and anxiety and is left.
We are all sinners, we have all blown it, multiple times, we're all on a equal playing field husbands and wives, however I will say that there are some extreme examples yet we are called To Love even to the point of self-sacrifice and going to the cross so if we are supposed to love our enemies feed and clothe them how much more are we supposed to love our spouses and suffer through hell and high water for them with them that they may be reconciled to God?
I will sum it up with the words of Jesus Son of God Messiah- *”GOD HATES DIVORCE”*
I will leave it at that, thank you Mike, brothers and sisters, I'm still hoping for reconciliation in my failed marriage.
Please continue to pray for me, pray for us, and I thank you, God bless you all Timothy
When my friends husband left her, I treated him as a non believer. He was still traveling the world preaching, but I chose to have no part in it.
I never understood how men think it’s funny to terrorize their wives and kids by chasing them with bugs because the man thinks it’s silly that his wife is phobic about, say, a mouse or spider. It’s not funny. It’s cruel. Yet so many do things like this, or tell you after you take a bite of something that there’s an ingredient in it you hate (deer or seafood) then laugh as you spit it out and say it’s not true, going back and forth, calling it teasing. I’m fine with teasing but there should be respect when genuine fear or disgust is involved. That’s not okay, but we have to live with it or we’re derided for not having a sense of humor or taking a joke, and told to lighten up.
I waited on my now ex husband for 23 years to repent. He cheated on me in every way there is out there. Abused me to the point of sodomy to exploit his sick mind. And I still stayed because our church said I must pray about him. Finally left after my sons grew up. But that’s after I spent my youth on this evil man
I hope peace is given to you.
The Church _needs_ more people to read their Bible. You had clear grounds to leave without guilt.
These issues are never easy! It breaks my heart to work with women through the church whose husbands are cheating and said husband has zero desire to get help for his behaviors of constant adultery and then everyone judges the wife for leaving. Is that man truly a Christian?
I hear people keep saying that we can't judge another person's heart. However, we can know them by their fruits. Of course none of us are perfect and we are all a work in progress. However, the true believer is teachable, will allow God to convict him/her of sin/wrongdoing, will repent, will seek to make amends and ask God for the grace to do better. We are all a work in progress and we are to be patient with one another. This, on the other hand, is not the case with abusers. Abuse is about systematic mistreatment, power and control the aim of which is to lord it over others in a self serving way to the detriment of others. They tend to feel entitled and therefore are not open to correction (although they'll sometimes pretend they are if it serves a purpose).
Someone who doesn't provide for their family (when it's in their power to do so we don't mean if it's a not in their power), and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Often abusers will fail to provide for those in their care and I don't just mean the provision of tangible items like a roof, food and clothing but also protection and safety.
It's alot of uneducated people who lack comprehension skills in here trying so hard to make others live a life in bondage. You'll perish if you follow the things people that lack understanding say. All the bes and i pray that for my divorced friends the Lord comforts you cause i know that it can be a lonely and isolating experience.
I've had my divorce granted on biblical grounds. How so? Abuse to where she had intent to cause harm or kill me. I had many pastors and they said that my grounds of divorce was granted biblically and shouldn't hinder my chances of God's priesthood as the intent to kill is the "unfaithfulness" to where love is completely gone and unreconciliable, just like the stance on the death penalty.
I’m sorry to hear about the pain and difficulties you’ve been through. It’s hard to imagine just how painful it would be to have your spouse treat you that way. Have you been able to find forgiveness for her through Christ?
I'm inclined to agree. At a civil level, if society were following God's commandments, justice would have freed you. Spiritually and principally, I think it is right for the Church to declare this a death of the marriage and you as free.
That said, seek God and listen to the Holy Spirit. Follow your convictions.
John 13:35
"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres".
Matthew 7:15-20
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them".
Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
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Anyone can call themselves a Christian (false prophets certainly do) but to know whether someone is a true believer we need to look at their fruits and the most important is love. None of us are perfect and we all stumble and fall. However, the true believer is teachable, will allow God to convict him/her of sin/wrongdoing, will take responsibility for their actions, will repent, will seek to make amends and ask God for the grace to do better and take serious steps to avoid reoffending. We are all a work in progress and we are to be patient with one another.
However, this is not the case with abusers. Abuse is about systematic power and control the aim of which is to lord it over others in a self serving way to the detriment of others. Abusers do not like to be corrected (unteachable), and according to statistics only 3% change/turn around/repent as they tend to justify their behaviour and chronically fail to take responsibility for it. They also tend to be/act entitled and have anger issues which they justify/find excuses for.
Abuse and love are opposites. Lets take a moment to look at the biblical definition of love and compare it to the mindset of an abuser:
Patience: abusers will lash out if they don't get their way (no patience).
Kind: abusers tend to be cruel and harsh.
Envy: many abusers feel like they received a bad deal in life (envious of those who have it better) which is often why anger is always festering just below the surface ready to erupt at the slightest provocation (things not going their way brings out their chronic sense of victimhood).
Boasting: abusers like to be seen as good people to the outside world they often even go out of their way to portray themselves in a good light: who they are in private is very different to their public façade.
Proud: abusers have fragile egos which are easily injured. This is a result of pride.
Dishonouring others: this is an abusers daily bread and butter. They constantly dishonour those closest to them.
Self-seeking: abusers are selfish and self serving to the detriment of those closest to them.
Is not easily angered: an abuser's anger is very easily triggered.
It keeps no record of wrongs: abusers have a very long memory when it comes to the wrongdoing of others towards them (even if they are just perceived wrongs). Abusers perceive themselves as victims (everyone else is always doing them wrong).
Does not delight in evil: many abusers take pleasure in causing harm and misery to those closest to them because it reinforces their sense of control.
Rejoices with the truth. abusers are liars because they put on a mask for the world while hiding their true nature: only those closest to them know who they really are.
It always protects: abusers do not protect those in their care. If anything they put them in harm's way
Always hopes: the fact that abusers are about power and control means that they don't have faith or hope (faith is the substance of things hoped for). Why hope for things when you can control things?
Always perseveres. here it's talking about persevering when things get difficult. Abusers create misery for others while taking the easy route for themselves and therefore they aren't perseverers.
As we can see abusers do not love and therefore cannot be true Christians although they may, and usually do, outwardly say and do all the right things in order to appear to be Christians to those who don't know them intimately.
Now lets look at the fruit of the spirit:
Love: we've already seen that abusers do not love.
Joy: joyful people do not harm others and therefore abusers must not have joy.
Peace: abusers have a deep root of anger and therefore don't have peace.
Forbearance: which means tolerance: abusers have no tolerance when it comes to those closest to. them and they can't tolerate not having their own way.
Kindness: abusers are not kind.
Faithfulness: many abusers cheat on their spouse or, at the very least, are very untrustworthy.
Gentleness: abusers tend to be violent whether physically or verbally.
Self-control: abusers have no self control towards those they are intimately connected to.
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Abuse is only hard to define for the untrained, uneducated as well as those lacking in wisdom and discernment and this is sadly the case in many churches. Churches need to do better.
Each church should have people on their staff who are professionally trained in DV as spotting genuine abuse is not that difficult for a trained professional who knows what to look for. They should have at least one man and one woman with these qualifications so that victims of DV can have someone of their own gender in which to confide. Once genuine abuse has been confirmed then it shouldn't be difficult to take steps to see if the offending party is open to correction (not just pretending as many do to avoid consequences) and the injured party should be protected and not be pressured into staying especially when there is no genuine remorse. Those with professional training will also know that only a mere 3% of offenders are likely to change their behaviour or engage in the process needed to bring about lasting change. Therefore a professional will be realistic regarding expectations and will also know that any real change is likely to take at least a year or longer while an unrepentant heart/unwillingness to engage/refusal to take responsibility will indicate that the person is unlikely to be a genuine Christian. Their spouse, after a time of separation and waiting period (to see if genuine repentance/change/effort is being made), should then be free to do as they deem appropriate. Even if genuine repentance/change does happen it will still take time and effort to build back trust and that may take even longer. The road to recovery can be a long and difficult one and takes a lot of hard work and only those serious about their walk with the Lord are likely to follow this path. Therefore, there are tools to deal with this issue but churches aren't equipping themselves with them. Why not? The fact that churches aren't taking a serious stance against DV (which is a serious issue that affects many lives including those of young, innocent and vulnerable children) means that they cannot be taken seriously on much anything else. They are allowing very serious sin to run rampant without doing anything about it and the best they can say is "it's hard to define"? Please miss me with this nonsense.
Six years ago, my wife left our bedroom. There has been no intimacy whatsoever since. We still live in the same house, different rooms-she sleeps in our children’s room-and the mental anxiety I’ve experienced is off the charts. I stay for the kids, and pray every night for Jesus to drop the scales from her eyes. She makes fun of me because I believe in the Bible. On Dec 12, 2012, Jesus came and forgave me of my sins. I went from non-believer to a Jesus follower in 1.5 seconds. She doesn’t believe that happened to me, though I bear fruit with my testimony. She keeps telling me that we’ll raise our kids and then see what we’re going to do. Great. I’m the meantime I’m living with an unrepentant roommate. This isn’t what I signed up for. But I’d rather suffer and stay for my kids
You are a danger to your kids. You are gonna instill the misogyny and homophobia inherent to your beliefs onto them. You should be as far away from her as possible. Your beliefs entail her being a lesser being to you
So you are a believer but your wife isn't? If so you are to remain married as long as she desires to (1 Corinthians 7). Your charge is to love and cherish her every day and display Christ to her, which I assume you're doing. Immerse yourself in Christian community and look for opportunities to include your wife. Be encouraged that God sees.
@@mchristr That’s what I’ve done for seven years. Yes, she’s only a Christian on paper and isn’t a true Christian. She now wants out of our marriage.
It’s easy to come up with Biblical reasons for divorce, but you have to really ask yourself: ‘Is this a reason I could legitimately tell God with a genuine heart?’ I appreciate the nuance here, but it’s still tough to get around Jesus in Mark 10 where He recognizes the nuance but still says remarriage is adultery
«Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.»
Luke 16:16-18 KJVAE
There is a difference between abandoning and "putting away" a wife (not divorced) so you can pursue another woman (real adultery) and then try to make the adultery right by marrying the new woman vs. marrying someone who is divorced. People are trying to make that verse mean the same thing when it does not.
@@em77775 _And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:_
_but and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife._
1 Corinthians 7:10-11 KJV
What do you have to say about these verses?
Mark 10 is laying down a principle, not an instruction manual. Otherwise scripture would contradict itself.
Mike did a three hour video on marriage and divorce. You should listen to it.
@@tt-cy1hb People have to take an honest stance on whether or not to follow the Bible, rather than twisting the message to their own liking. I bow for the Lord and the scripture. Jesus is very clear about remarriage being not an option as long as both live.
Why do you keep saying "extreme" abuse? You make it sound like if someone isn't actively torturing their spouse then it's not a big deal. Any and all abuse can be taken to the church if it's not being dealt with, and the church can put someone out if they won't repent.
Sadly, most churches don't take church discipline seriously... (except in cases of making mountains out of moleholes of trivial doctrine unique to their sect).
You should cover more videos on the topic of sexual immorality and general lack of accountability and responsibility about the topic. Heaven knows it needs to be discussed.
There is hope. Hope in Jesus.
What if that spouse repents and comes to Christ. Should that marriage then be reconciled?
In part, a question regarding the appropriateness of remarriage in these cases. But you can go beyond that.
God Bless and Keep you and yours
If two parties want to reconcile, then you should reconcile. If one party won't reconcile, the marriage is abandoned. Don't overthink it.
But Pastor Mike, how will we know if our spouse will poke us while we sleep unless we cohabitate first before marriage? 🤔
Chill, y'all. This is a joke referencing a previous clip.
I grew up in church and as a Christian but I do believe in divorce and if you need to get divorced then you do. God doesn’t want you to suffer in your marriage. If you need to make a decision pray to God so he can move his hand of power to your benefit.
It is so strange what some people do to their spouse. If you ear about it, you would think it's a kid acting out.
to the natural man, Ecclesiastes 3:15: “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.” The “natural man” cannot grasp that, for to him reality is based only on the evidence of the senses. The man of reason could justify the verse’s end, saying if it has any meaning then the writer must mean recurrence. The sun comes every day and the moon completes its cycle and the seasons come and go. If we took a picture of the universe today, the scientists can compute how long it will take to return to this point in the picture. So the intellectual man could justify the verse; but that is not what is meant, for it is addressed not to the man of reason or the man of sense, but to the man of Imagination. What is it all about? “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been, and God seeks what has been driven away.”
Thank you SO very much 😊🙏!!
First thing first I think we should stop assuming that Jesus did not think things through before he made the statement he made which was simply stating that divorce is allowed but REMMARRIAGE ISN'T. Jesus said that Moses allowed divorce because of the wickedness amongst people that were supposed to be children of God. Jesus was fully aware of situations that could lead to divorce when he gave his instructions. The simple way to look at this is = If Jesus said that if a believing partner commits sexual immorality (sin), then you can get a divorce but you are not allowed to remarry, it is therefore very clear that regardless of the type of sin, whether sexual immorality or abuse, Jesus knows that a believer could actually fall back into sin, and if such happens and you cant be with the person again you can divorce but you are not to remarry. So you cant say if you were abused then that means the person was never really a Christian and so you can remarry, then the same thing could be said of the person who commits sexual immorality, that if the person could commit sexual immorality than he/she was never really a believer, SO WHY did Jesus say you couldn't remarry if you divorce your spouse because of sexual immorality. The issue is not the TYPE OF SIN. The command is the command. YOU ARE NOT WISER THAN JESUS. The sad reality is that Christians choose their spouses based on outward appearance of supposed godliness, you say "he is a pastor in church," "she sings in the choir", "he is so prayerful", and so you assume the person is a true believer based on the outward form of godliness instead of relying on God who sees the heart to tell you if that person is for you or not. God will NEVER lead you to an abusive marriage. NEVER. If you are a Christian, God expects you to know Him and to rely on Him and if you choose not to and you get into the wrong marriage, He loves you enough to allow you to get out of that marriage (divorce), but your "punishment" or rather repercussion for not depending on God for your spouse, is for you to remain unmarried and focus on serving HIM. It is the bitter truth. If we face this fact, we singles will be very careful in our decisions and will rely on hearing God's voice. The fundamental issue is that many professed Christians don't know God's voice, so they don't know when He speaks, so they just think, reading scriptures is like reading a motivational book that guides you on how you should live your life, but there is the aspect of the spirit. You can follow all the rules but if you are not led by the spirit of God, you will make mistakes such as marrying a seemingly godly man who ticks all the boxes outwardly, but isn't really godly. … SORRY FOR MY RANT...
Pastor Mike did an exhaustive study on divorce and remarriage. He confronted all the issues according to the Scriptures. I highly recommend it.
I have a friend who was in an abusive marriage for years and when she finally left she has been met with *so* much shame. My stance has been in line with Pastor Mikes. Great thoughts about Saul & David. and Matthew 18.
"Wives submit to your husbands " Paul addressed this to believers. Believing husband, believing wife. A woman is not bound to obey a Godless wife beating drunkard!" The late Dr. Jay Vernon McGee
So how do you get around this
1 Peter 3:1-5 ESV
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external-the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear- but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,
@@chandlerjacksonaz people like you validate the criticism that Christians use the bible to justify anything they want including slavery. You aren't using the bible correctly.
@@Do_not_at_me_bro That’s a straw man argument, I never said the Bible justifies slavery.
You argument is that submitting is only if you are married to a believer, which is not true based off of the verse I shared. There are some exceptions to the rule but the rule is to submit.
@@chandlerjacksonaz It also lines up with 1 Corinthians 7:12~16
@@chandlerjacksonaz Speaking to believers. Not Godless wife beaters. A Godless drunkard / druggie wife beater trying to invoke this needs to be cast of of the Church
Please explain to me where in 1Co 7:12-16, is a believing spouse allowed to leave an abusing unbeliever?
I married a proclaimed Christian then we got pregnant and married. After living together for a year, I noticed she was in fact not a Christian. I should have vetted her better, but I was just coming out of a 1 year rehab and was improving myself, although I didn't have much fortification in the real world. Shifted to marriage rather quickly.
My discontent lead me back into a very gradual relapse. Here and there with months in between to the point it was almost every other weekend I'd go smoke meth to feel happy. And of course drinking started to increase and I smoked marijuana at the time. I even went to the VA to try anti depression medication and anxiety medication and got all sorts of testing done, which ultimately was just gas on the fire, especially when having thus medication in my system along with the occasional hard drug use and eventually not taking the medication consistently enough and eventually dropping the medication all together. I was drunk enough one day and woke up to a huge drama scene going on and eventually attacked my wife out of frusteration by grabbing her neck, which lead to my arrest. During my period of relapse she was dissatisfied and was assumingly cheating on me with other men. I was never able to absolutely prove it, but the circumstances pointed right to it. I wanted to fix it but after a month in jail and a restraining order, she found many other men and eventually replaced me with one guy then another guy who she's with now. I wish now that I'm better we could repair our marriage before divorce is finalized but she's too hurt and still with a man. I don't get to see my children till the divorce is finalized. These are her terms.
However the church was never brought into the picture prior to separation due to the incident and due to her not having any trust in counseling nor the church and in fact stopped going to church all together. I don't blame a non Christian for not bringing the church into the picture. She told me counseling only works 30% of the time so it's not worth even trying. I don't think she wanted to fix it at that point. Especially after telling me she loves me but is not in love with me anymore.
I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through. May you continue to find hope, healing and restoration in Christ! Praying for you!
@@LadyWillanger Thank you. That is so sweet. God bless.
Pastor Mike, it seems like you speak of separation as only an option for an abusive relationship.
But what about the spouse that is the opposite? Absolutely cold and indifferent to you. No love, no warmth from the person that is supposed to be your protector and provider.
How many times must I beg to be loved? To be seen and not ignored?
I’m tired of being the only one pursuing him in this marriage. I’m tired of being the only one that puts in any effort.
I’m scared that This is what the rest of my life will be.
Please help
Following.
Sounds like an unbeliever...
Let's be extremely careful what we label as abuse. People often withdraw because it seems safer than being open and vulnerable, and it has nothing to do with your quality as a wife. Are you involved in Christian community? God has given you the Church to help in a situation just like this.
People nowadays don't want to hear it, but Jesus spoke about this clearly. If a man unjustifiably divorces his wife, if she remarries she is committing adultery.
Im a Christian married to a non believer and have been abused mentally, emotionally and some physically ( things I can’t say here if you know what I mean) we have two kids 5 and 2 and live with his widowed mom, he’s an only child. Married for 6yrs been together since 19. I contemplate divorce but he says no. But I think it’s because I’m easy to manipulate. I feel stuck on fallowing the word of God and staying for my kids. I can’t take it anymore. He’s told me things that hurt me so bad. Ive told him things too. It’s a toxic relationship especially for our kids. He’s twisted my wrist, he’s pinned me against the wall and fridge. He’s tripped me to the floor and says it’s my fault that I did it. I feel stuck between Gods word and my kids happiness. I tried therapy but I can’t afford it. I work at his job park time. I feel like I don’t have liberty, even at work. Only when I go to my parents. I’m depressed and he makes fun of me. I’ve been to the ER because I’m under stress and he says it’s my fault, I put myself there. He’s also kept me up once because I woke him up for him snoring and he kept me up for 5hrs. Wouldn’t let me lie down. What should I do?
Get out as soon as you can. What are your children learning? Are you taking care of them by letting them think this is how a marriage is meant to be? What they see is a powerful powerful model for their future romantic relationships. That is part of why I'm separated; if it were just me I think I could make it, but my boys are learning to be abusers and my girls are learning to accept it. This must not continue, not on my watch. check out Leslie Vernick, Gretchen Baskerville, Sheila Wray Gregoire, Patrick Weaver ministries.
Christianity has primed you to accept abuse. I feel bad for you
but if you know the person is Christian, and don't treat them as such, isn't that a form of bearing false witn4ess? Isn't it failing to love them as Christ loves us?
Hey Pastor Mike, I think it would be super awesome if you did am apologetical study on The Exodus event both biblically historic and historically historic. It would be quite interesting.
Most likely the exodus from Egypt happened but in a much smaller scale. It is a foundational myth for the Israelites.
Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
All the scary Bible verses that sound like if you do this or don't do that you aren't a believer, it doesn't make sense because what we do does not save us so how can what we do be a measure of weather or not we are saved? Yes works can justify out faith to ourselves and others but not to God. All throughout scripture I see we are saved by grace through faith and it is not of works. Dead faith is still saving faith but dead faith is useless to God and others. That makes sense. More sense then what I hear when I hear and read those scary sounding verses.
The people that believe what you are espousing here LOVE to take ONE scripture and to ridiculous extremes and then IGNORE COMPLETELY ALLLL the verses that directly contradict the extrapolated meaning they took out of it.
Jesus Himself asked people "why do you call me Lord, Lord, but don't do what I say?" Then again, He says, many will say, "didn't we prophecy, cast out demons, etc etc" and Jesus said, He will say to them, "Depart from me, YOU WHO PRACTICE INIQUITY, I NEVER KNEW YOU."
IF you are saved, you WILL bear fruit and it will be evident in your actions. Your actions won't save you, but if your actions are no different than an unbeliever, YOU AREN'T A BELIEVER! It's not that hard to understand!
Man, it bugs me that you and Allen Parr disagree that abuse is grounds for divorce, and you both posted videos within days of each other addressing this topic with her.
So how does the unbeliever can leave if they want to equate to the believer can leave and divorce? Especially when Jesus only gave grounds in adultery?
Hey Mike, can you talk about unanswered prayers? I feel God is angry at me and refuses to hear my prayers. At times the opposite happens of what I pray. Yet I pray for biblical things.
*Biblical reasons for God not answering prayers:*
1. You are asking selfishly, for your own selfish desires/motives
2. You love your sin / are in iniquity, instead of repenting, you are staying in sin
3. You are taking communion in a bad manner
4. You are oppressing or mistreating others
5. You ignore the poor/the plight of others
6. You are doubting God
7. You are being prideful and God is resisting you
8. You are unjustly violent, including murder
9. You are harsh/insensitive to your wife (question: does this also go the other way with a wife who is disrespectful to her husband? is it a form of iniquity)
10. You are mistreating God's people
11. You are under a curse (such as from conning people)
12. You aren't abiding in God / seeking His kingdom 1st, but somehow expect the promises for that anyway
13. maybe you are simply asking for something God doesn't do (like _force_ someone to change vs draw them to relationship).
(yes, a lot of those directly fit into loving sin/iniquity, but it's helpful to call out things God specifically names)
I suggest you do a search and read passages on these. It will transform you to read them. I know I am humbled every time I do.
@@MaintDocs Or sometimes you're not doing any of these things and God has not said "yes" yet or might not ever say "yes" because He has a bigger plan than what we can imagine in our finiteness. I definitely know how this feels.
I have *only one disagreement but it's a debatable one: on Matt 18* - I believe that we the Church are all the Ecclesia. The difference here is the difference between, it's all up to the leaders vs it's publicly up to the entire Church body.
If that person refuses to be reconciled to the body, they _he isn't a part of it._
It makes sense. It isn't limited by a few good or bad leaders in the Church, *if they won't listen to God's **_community,_** they are out.*
I have seen (and experienced 1st hand) the effect of trying to interpret this as the Church elders.
A lot of that can be boiled down to not sticking to the qualifications of elders, for sure.
But when it's the community, like capital punishment in OT Israel, the whole community was involved. You better come forward with witness, because you're going to have to wrongfully throw the rocks that kill them if you remain silent. *Matt 18 shouldn't escalate so some closed door meeting with a couple pastors & elders playing judge and jury.* (I've seen the evil of that enough times to be thoroughly convinced against it) *It should escalate to the point where the entire body bears witness, that person refuses the entire body, that entire body then treats them as (same category as tax collectors and pimps).* If anyone outside that community comes and sees how that person is treated, they can ask - and *everyone in the community is capable of giving an answer,* because they heard the witnesses, they watched that person choose to give the entire community the metaphorical finger.
Now some people will say, *"but Jesus was going over to tax collectors houses."* In clear context though, this is calling out _a change in how we treat them._ *Does it make sense to pick an interpretation where it escalates to "do nothing different?"* Does that fit the language and tone? No. Therefore, it is a more appropriate interpretation to take how they _culturally_ treated that category of people:
*You don't want any association or business with pimps, you don't invite them to your house/fellowship with them, you avoid them.* You can still go out and witness to a pimp, but you don't make them your friend, you are even careful how you might be perceived by someone else if interacting with them.
And it's natural: *refusal to be in right relationship with the body comes with **_loss of fellowship_** with the body.*
And in parallel, what did God tell his Apostles to do with a town/people that refused to listen? Shake the dust off their sandals and move on (symbolically, releasing from any responsibility or association / don't want any of their sin on me). Some of those same towns later repented and had Churches in them. But they missed out for a while because of their hard hearts.
Bible is always clear that you can leave your spouse, but if you are free to remarry again is a completely separate issue. And I see a pandemic of remarried Christians. Not something that makes churches better. So, when things aren’t clear, it’s best to look for the fruits of behavior
What do you suggest? Biblically that is.
Excellent. 🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯
Off topic. I was having a discussion with someone who argues that the Bible doesn’t state when a person begins to be a person. He said that when the brain is formed there’s person, because the soul is in the brain. If no brain (as in anencephaly) no person. Therefore you can have an abortion. Can we support with the Bible a person is a soul since conception?
The best scripture to use would be in Jeremiah. This shows God knows every person before they were ever in the womb, which would mean at the moment of conception when a new set of DNA is created.
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Jeremiah 1:5
6:30 what?
This is really dangerous, especially if you don't define "abuse." You're essentially giving people license to call any negative behavior "abuse," claiming the "abuser" must therefore not be a Christian, and claiming the "abuse" makes the marriage intolerable so that constitutes the other spouse leaving the marriage. If these are the ground rules, Christian marriage is meaningless and can be dissolved when either party is unhappy
This was good. Thanks Mike.
Mike, Is it Biblical for a Christian, married couple to refuse to have children? Paul supports being single to avoid being drawn between God and a duty to your spouse. So, if a couple works well as a team, but having children would prevent them from doing their ministry, can they decide to not have children biblically?
*We are given lots of freedoms/liberties in the Bible. So let's not substitutes man's rules in place of God's.*
I see the clear flow of your logic, and it seems to have some merit.
Principally, there may be a bit of an issue here though.
In this hypothetical marriage, is it sexless? - Because that is against commands some passages in the Bible.
Given that marriage is not supposed to be sexless - then in that intended intimacy normally children would be an outcome. And that is in God's hands, for He opens and closes wombs, He crafts and designs that baby with His intent and care.
So now we cross into the larger subject of can Christians use contraceptives? *Is it right to **_want to take the pleasure_** while avoiding the possible responsibilities?*
That gives me a big pause. Isn't that one of Satan's primary sin tactics? Seize the blessing/promise early, take the benefit but avoid responsibility, fain the relationship but avoid entering into commitment?
But is it permissible?
Pastors & teachers need to be really careful about not overstepping the authority of their station - that is to teach the Word of God and lead application of it, to cross into teaching _their own_ theology _their own_ laws and principles. As ambassadors of God, we should dare not exceed our authority in this.
I'm not going to bring a specific passage out of context here, because those brothers had a _specific responsibility_ and instead used her like a harlot and left her deprived. I don't see that as a general command for never using contraceptives. Principally, something strikes me as off still. That's my conviction without a direct Scripture command to give you.
Related:
Just because someone has become accustomed to/likes abuse does not make it permissible. For instance, it would be wrong to supply a heroin addict - just because they like it.
A question of what spirit this is in comes up. And not just what spirit, many sexual acts that show they are abuse but the harmful signs, the fruit as it were.
In some reserved bluntness, the reason we see saw so many adds 2 years ago about treatments for rear end disfunctions and problems is directly related to the 2 years before that where sexual experimentation was pushed in high school classes.
*Putting something where it doesn't belong causes several signs of damage/harm, including a bunch of very long term disabilities. Isn't that a sign of God's disapproval? That even without a specific curse, the sheer mechanics of it cause long term harm? But that it **_also_** seems to incur related sexual disease problems?*
This principle is not part to grasp, unless someone is actively not wanting to see it.
We have freedom of speech, but we are not free to use that for death threats. *There are bounds on what it permissible in liberty.* We are called to use our liberty in a loving manner. Frequently love isn't giving someone what they think they want. (and God is our primary example to draw that principle from)
Are our lives supposed to be spent in hedonistic pursuits ?(gratification/pleasure seeking)
Isn't that how Rome was when God brought it down? Isn't that the sinful culture of America, not the moral God-seeking?
There is a counterbalance of being told God gives us "our portion in life" and that we should enjoy it. We aren't called to a cold robot-like existence. But were aren't supposed to live our lives pursuing pleasure.
I have not met someone in youthful fertility going after this children-less marriage idea, without seeing a very real layer of "we just want to be free and pursue our own enjoyments. Living without responsibility is fun."
Does that match your situation? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it is genuinely from a desire to have no impediments to the ministry you are _currently_ being called to. But then, I suggest you go watch The End of the Spear and consider every missionary who is called to dangerous places with their children. I think of the testimonies I've heard from India with missionary families living in the dangerous jungle because in town the gangs murder missionaries.
Is children really the impediment you think it is? Or does it merely change your mission work in a way you aren't comfortably used to? Perhaps _God_ is calling you to a shift from where He placed you.
So my check to your heart is this: It may be permissible, but is it Godly? Does it actually match priorities and character we see in the life we are called to? *I'm not going to give you a command I don't see called out in Scripture.* I will point you to self examine and seek to show others the kind of love God has shown us. *Steward the life God has given you well, live in the freedom of your convictions.*
Now there is a word you used that presents another situation: refuse.
Instead of being the married person considering or a concerned friend, *are you a parent of a now adult and married son or daughter, are you seeking grandchildren?*
If this is the case, *I have very specific advice that applies to you,* including some warnings.
God's Word is clear: the a man and woman are to leave their father and mother's household and become one together. A new family unit as it were.
God says the husband _must_ love his wife as Christ loves the Church. A wife _must_ respect her husband.
*Anything that attacks what God says is required is a **_sinful attack against_** their marriage.* (a sinful attack isn't _real_ love)
So you must be careful of your own actions.
It does not matter how good an idea you have, how ideal, how great it would be - if it comes above and attacks what God says is non-negotiable, you have put (your) man's ideas above God's.
*This the the very **_idolatry_** Christ condemned the pharisees for and called them a brood of vipers.* It is _not_ godliness.
As a parent, you were supposed to raise your _child_ in the way the should go - and when they are older, they will not depart from it. Not only may you need to wait until they are older (a deviance in youthful adulthood, but a return as they get older), but perhaps they weren't the issue.
If you have failed to train your child in the way they should go - *you missed that boat.* They aren't children anymore. You can't cram them back in that box.
That man is the head of his new family, with his wife at his side, unified together as one.
If you are in panic, because you realize you have failed in your duty of raising your child the right way, or you are insecure and you have not raised them in a way you could see their trustworthiness - you cannot fix that failure now. It is wrong to treat them as children. They are adults, a man and a woman, sons and daughters still, but children no longer.
*Do not presume that God will bless your efforts* - if you are engaged in idolatry, tearing down what He has ordained as necessary, trying to seize authority that does not belong to you, dishonoring their marriage (rebellion to "show honor where honor is due").
Indeed, if you were engaged in those kinds of actions, even for something that the idea at the start was right, BUT THE PATH IS ALL WRONG. If I was advising a young married couple, I would give them the same advice as any other couple:
*You must protect your marriage. Your priority order is God 1st, your spouse 2nd. Get rid of anything in your life that attacks your marriage, be that friends or family.*
Anyone who chips away at that is a poison to your marriage.
Those were some stiff rebukes. Jesus called people doing that vipers. I have been more gentle than that.
*So what can you do in that situation?* You don't want to sin, and you care about them. You know that life will end up with regret.
1. Pray (and do a study on why God does _not_ answer prayers, so that you can grow in the right spirit)
2. Have a good relationship with them, so you have a voice they are inclined to listen to. Honor and respect their marriage. Treat them with respect and honor. Show them godly love and care.
3. Ask questions and listen. You want a voice? Then make sure they feel respected when talking about something you disagree on.
4. Realize it's ultimately in God's hands, so _you personally_ don't need to be the one who changes them. 1 cor 3, we are all building on the foundation of Christ. It may need to be someone else without the family baggage in the way for them to hear.
5. Instead of attacking their wants, demonstrate and show God's values. If their values change, their wants change too. It is likely that the major element at stake is a very real level of live for Christ 1st and above all else vs living for the things of this world.
That's a much deeper thing that the mere surface level "do we have children or not." Battering on the one issue will fail against the mountain of the real issue.
6. And what really is most important? Is our son's and daughter's comfort? safety? pleasure?
Isn't it _best_ that they lead lives devoted to God above all else? Whether that risk their lives, their comforts, their safety, their wants?
This life is temporary. Eternity is not.
Why would having children prevent someone from participating in ministry? If you have a unique calling, stay single. If you are married, and children are a blessing from the Lord, have children and minister as a family.
I have a question and I hope someone can help me.
I am married to an unbelieving spouse. There has been some mental verbal and only a few instances of physical abuse. I believe from what I’ve read he is a narcissist as always deflects fault back to me. He has called me fat and stupid. I’ve felt his love grow cold for me and in this my heart has grown cold, it feels to protect. But I still love him . I have remained and even though I’m persecuted in my faith I still try and serve in quietness but today in an argument I said to him in exasperation I can’t do this marriage anymore as I feel like I’ve mentally left it and he has to. That I feel like I’m doing life alone.
Today because I said my heart is not in the marriage anymore and I want to see a counsellor, he won’t and said we need to seperate. What do I do am I free to leave. I feel like I’ve caused this because I told him how I felt in frustration and that’s just kicked off a chain of events, where he seems to want to punish me by saying there is no way back from what I said.
If the unbelieving spouse does not want to stay in the marriage, you are free to leave. As far as whether you are free to remarry, that is a different question. The conclusion I came to is no, not unless they commit adultery (including remarriage).
Mike please respond to this TH-camr Gregg Jackson
He takes the doctrine of faith alone to mean we are once saved always saved even if we don't confess with our mouth that Jesus is lord, don't forgive those who trespass against us, and even if we deny the Lord before men or become apostates.
He thinks if we believe in Jesus even only for a moment we can willfully sin all we like and even renounce the faith and it won't affect our salvation at all.
My husband has a 4 year history of opposing and questioning my words.
I went mure because he refused to stop it.
Then he started overtalking my parenting and trying to be like Absalom and usurp authority in the first minutes of me giving kids commands. 9 months asking him to stop and he refuses.
I moved out. He acts like it is minor and I am over sensitive and need to get help for being bothered. He says he is helping. I say it is harassment if I ask for it to stop and it doesn’t. I give him permission to step in if I have lost my temper or am in error but he is stepping in when nothing is wrong.
Help? Thoughts?
Mute not mure
He also does emotionally abusive things when confronted like blameshifting and powering over denial and intimidation. Acting superior and uncaring.
@@everlybnb2409 have you sought counseling through your church or elsewhere yet? I pray things improve for you.
I think you need to talk with a marriage counselor, with or without your husband's participation. Local and in-person if possible. TH-cam comments can't provide much help for these situations.
It’s a type of psychological abuse. It’s a type of gaslighting. It’s not loving behavior, it’s controlling, manipulative and insidious. He won’t change unless he humbled himself completely and fully, vocally admits his abusive behavior. I wouldn’t say divorce him but I’d say dont let him off the hook until he fully repents and makes amends. If he refuses and keeps blame shifting, you need to be very wary. Psychological abuse can in some ways be more damaging than physical. I’m not just saying that, I lived it. You need to tell him he’s being abusive and that’s not ok. I read a book once about boundaries by cloud and Townsend. When you begin to recognize your boundaries and protect them you will start to get back your voice. But one warning, when you begin to learn how your boundaries have been violated, you will become angry-and anger is an excellent gatekeeper but dont let anger overstay it’s welcome. Be anger but sin not. I sincerely hope you find support and clarity and strength through this time.
A lot of abuse goes on with both sides. I’ve witnessed way more abuse coming from a woman in forms of manipulative control. Somehow, its acceptable.
@@jasonreed2116 agreed 👍 when relationships are out of Gods order it’s doesn’t work. woman become the head and men become the tail is not acceptable biblically but current social behavior in the world will smile about it, like men are stupid. God is mans head and man is woman’s head its really simple. Yes we can ask for advice from a woman and have conversations however, the man has the last word.
Divorce and abuse are separate biblical matters. Divorce is the remedy for adultery. Separation may be the remedy for abuse.
I think both parties can be caught in the cycle of emotional abuse. Denial is also a problem and usually a 3rd party is needed to mediate. This is the place where a husband and/or a wife might be weaponizing the Bible.
@@anamericanfriend2367 Abuse is such an inherently subjective term that really can mean a lot of things. People have claimed abuse from as light as "little raising of a voice" to as severe as "battery" - and everything in between. Battery notwithstanding, it usually takes two to tango but men are at a severe disadvantage when courts are involved due to "activism judges", "virtue signalling judges", and the public concept of "believe all women".
@@shadowmist1246 I don't think you understand emotional abuse. It's a pattern of unhealthy behaviors. It's not just one little thing. The basic desire of the abuser is control. It evolves over time and don't realize you're in it until later. It starts innocently perhaps with derogatory comments made to seem playful. An abusive woman might exhibit jealousy of a man's family and friends and the time he spends with them. Things escalate. She might start to control him with emotional outbursts of anger or crying. She'll make him feel he's unreasonable for spending time away from her. She may threaten self harm. It goes on and on. The woman is erratic. The unpredictability causes stress. Do you understand it's the uncertainity of the emotional environment.
Women also can undergo this same dynamic but somewhat different. Intimidation is part of the emotional abuse a woman suffers.
Neither a woman or man victim is going to fare well in this emotional rollercoaster life. It sucks.
I kine of think about abortion a bit differently now. I still think it is wrong and not good in MOST cases. But... let's say that doctors found a way to keep people from having growing pains. Or to keep people from not growing so they won't have growing pains. Wouldn't you want to not have growing pains if you knew there was a way to stop them?
Abortion is wrong on all cases, though shall not kill. Your analogy doesn't make sense because the nobody is being killed curing growing pains but the baby is being killed in an abortion.
The problem is, that you call a abusive marriage christian. Perhaps you should read the exclusion conditions in the bible and follow these. Abusive and regenerated and saved do not go together. I know, Jesus only got crucified because he distinguished between saved and unsaved. To avoid percecution "we" only must call everyone a christian.
What if both people are Christian’s but one person is mentally and emotionally abusive rather than physically abusive?
This TH-camr is conflating abuse and divorce. Biblically, it is not very complicated: divorce is the remedy for adultery only and there is a good reason for that: the two who have become are no longer one when someone has become one with someone else. Other marital problems such as "abuse" can be dealt with by separation (stay single) --- whether or not they are Christian.
I must say, I've never thought that David was in the right to flee for his life from Saul. "I will die someday..." But that was in direct contradiction to the God's promises to him. Unbelief.
You can't honestly be THAT dumb. If God promises you something in the future, that doesn't mean you don't use common sense and do YUOR part to stay alive.
IF God promises you a wife someday, while you are still single, if during that waiting period, a car goes out of control and starts veering towards you, standing on the sidewalk, are you NOT going to jump out of the way? To just STAND there and Expect God to come down and put an invisible wall between you and the car, would be insane.
If God promised David that he would sit on the throne, but then David with FULL Knowledge, Saul was out to kill him, chose to just sit there and let Saul kill him, THAT would be David testing God. Something Jesus himself told Satan not to do.
If the Christian wife has divorced her “Christian”husband because of abuse and has been given counsel to do so but he still claims to be a Christian, according to your above video she is free to divorce. That being said, if he is not to be looked in as a Christian, would you consider her free to marry again? We have counseled her that divorce was permissible in her case but to remain single?? According to 1Cor 7:10-11. You’re thoughts??
If No reconciliation must remain single. There is No remarriage many are deceived.
Thank you, 😭👍👍
Why did I have to exist ,Chritianity is too complex ,I have to forgive more than I am forgiven . I am so scared ,I want out but howw?????
Actually true Christianity is not complex at all. Mike Winger has certainly made it seem complicated but the truth in the scriptures is far less complicated. Divorce is only biblically acceptable as a remedy for adultery (Mat 5:32 and 19:9) and there is a good Spiritual reason for that. It's because marriage is 2 becoming 1 (Gen 2:24 and Mat 19:5-6) and when adultery occurs, the two are no longer 1. There are other kinds of marital difficulties but separation (stay single) may be the remedy in those circumstances.
On our own it is very complex. That’s why He has promised His grace to help us through
@@seekthetruthandthetruthwil2388Actually, your first statement "On our own it is very complex", while it sounds "religious" on its surface, some biblical principles have not been made obscure for people to understand. Marriage is one of these that should be quite basic. But you might be conflating this with the difficult curcumstances some may be in as a result of flesh being involved --- I will grant you that. That is where grace is most applicable. Marriage is not an obscure concept in the bible and I don't believe God meant for it to be difficult.
@@shadowmist1246 in a marriage it takes God’s Grace for a spouse to act in Love when circumstances scream otherwise.
All this stems did to the fact that people enter marriage without the biblical principles and then are at a loss when issues creep in.
@@seekthetruthandthetruthwil2388 I understand however the initiating comment was "Christianity is too complex". I believe it is best not to create complexity where none should exist. Certainly circumstances can be difficult such that God's grace is necessary but it is not the biblical principles of marriage that should be made complicated. But I get what you are trying to convey.
Love Mike! Bless you in Jesus’ name and your ministry to thousands!
I am fully convinced that if we fully give ourselves to Christ, and do not think and live in fear, then many more will be able to redeem their marriages. Take the idea of the movie Fireproof remove the corniness and put the Holy Spirit at the center. Enter into fasting and praying for your spouse, lose your life to Christ and believe that His love and truth are far more powerful than sin. Then watch what God does. There’s a bid difference between our own efforts from stress and fear and complete surrender and being led by Holy Spirit. Not saying keep yourself in an abusive situation, I’m saying get to safety, separate and commit to truly seeking God’s heart, power, and plan. He wants to speak, and give you a pure heart for the person and truly lead you by his Spirit.
As much as it might be emphasized by the church,that's fine in theory,but headship simply DOES NOT work that way in practice in the face of the harsh reality in the frigid real world.Simply put;men DO NOT MAKE IT EASY for a wife to trust his headship enough to submit to this.
Churches and marriages are in trouble by not being obedient to Matthew 18.15-17, refusing corporate justice and judgment formally: see Dr Greg Wills. Unfortunately pastor Mike promotes non formal individual efforts (listen here: 4:30). Mediators (18.16) are not to be chosen by individuals but democratically by the church (Acts 6.3).
How did you get democratically-chosen mediators from the Bible?
I don’t see the validity of your point based on the scriptures you quoted. Matthew has nothing to say about who specifically chooses the mediators and Acts is about choosing deacons for who is to wait tables. Neither render the responsibility necessarily directly to the church in every instance of being sinned against by a fellow believer. Are there any other scriptures that you pull that from?
Matthew 18 begins by saying you should go to your brother individually. Do you even read the passages you quote?
@@cannonbyrd6265The point is that modern churches do not obey Matt 18 in refusing to corporately excommunicate, they do it individually. This doesn't work.
@@razzendahcubenthanks brother, you're absolutely right! But when this fails it becomes a formal church issue. My point with Pastor Mike is that he continues the individualism in 18:16, mediation is a formal congregational activity that begins the excommunication process, brother Mike has it informal. BTW: This idea is legion among denominations stemming from a century of corruption in the ministry, that's why churches are dying in the US.
Though overall Mike Winger’s teaching and positions are Biblical and respectable, I would encourage Mike Winger and other Christians who are seeking to honor God in their marriages and their position on marriage and divorce and the advice they give to listen to Bible teachers such as David Pawson and his teaching on marriage, divorce and remarriage. Though I would not take a formal stance on who is more Biblical regarding this topic, one thing will become evident to everyone who listens to the two different positions (Winger’s vs Pawson’s) is that there is a strict and loose (conservative or liberal) interpretation of God’s view on marriage, divorce and remarriage. We live in an era and in a society where the loose interpretation is predominate. Statistics evaluating the stat of marriage and their longevity bears to the fact many hold to the loose interpretation especially in the churches presiding over repeat marriages. I don’t believe there is one honest pastor who would look at the state of marriage and say it is in excellent shape. It is so pathetic, that I don’t even see and Biblical ideal for which to strive presented within the church and the importance of such covenant. Given the pathetic state of “Christian “ marriages, I now see the importance of faithful Bible teachers to start to reign in the “looseness” of their interpretation in regards to this topic and swing towards David Pawson’s position. For in their loose interpretation, churches, I believe, have gone to the point of presiding over adulterous relationships by remarrying at the very least illegitimately divorced individuals. So I would call on Pastor Winger to respectfully consider his analogies appropriately. In an era where Christians view marriage as dispensable, it is not appropriate to say if your spouse pokes you in your sleep that equates to torture and therefore abuse and therefore grounds for divorce. I believe such statements are reckless to peoples expectation of marriage. For if he is encouraging people that such is grounds for divorce, I hope he is not remarrrying anyone those individuals. For being poked in your sleep by your spouse is not grounds for divorce and any remarriage after divorce on such ground is adultery according to Jesus. It’s time for honest Bible teachers to contend with that possibility.
It’s not the act of poking her while she is sleeping that is torture, but the fact that in doing so he is causing her sleep deprivation, which as Pastor Winger said, causing sleep deprivation is an _enhanced interrogation_ (I.e. torture) technique.
You missed the point…In a culture of no fault divorce, where Christians divorce very flippantly and the majority of pastors are fine remarrying them into adulterous unions, correlating poking someone to prevent them from sleeping to torture is reckless because Christians are more likely to frame innocent actions as torture in our times more than really be going through constant unrelenting unrepentant torture before seeking the only alternative of divorce.
An overly legalistic approach won't solve the problem. Pastor Mike did an exhaustive study (and video) on divorce and remarriage, specifically dealing with David Pawson's position. I highly recommend it.
Hi Mike. What video is this clip taken from?
Check out Lisa Laizure on TH-cam she does "Women's Bible Study" content, you can find the full videos on her channel, website, or app. Its called the "Marriage Questions Conference", Pastor Mike went to an even she was hosting a little bit ago.
So i am confused. If we marry a non-christian, can we divorce them at any time?
No
@@HPCsma I didn't think so, however that seems to be the standard set by this video.
There is also emotional abuse too.
That term has been abused so much its meaningless.
@@mlwilson2956 Well, perhaps you've never been in an abusive situation.
@@jasonreed2116
True. I think people need to understand what emotional abuse looks like.
Emotional abuse takes the form of ridicule, explosive anger, threats, manipulation, intimidation, controlling behavior. The victim is always wrong, minimizing a person's right to be heard and withholding love, punishing the victim for not "submitting" to the whims of the abuser. The abuser is erratic so the victim lives in fear of the explosion. Threats of rejection and retaliation are common. The victim feels anxiety and uncertainty when the abuser is around.
@@jasonreed2116 Thanks and yes I have directly and indirectly. Relationships with people so abused can also be difficult. I also know that physical abuse is always accompanied by emotional abuse. Emotional abuse can exist on its own with a threat of physical abuse to the victim, their children or even suicide. The victim is made to feel responsible for the abuser's abuse or well being.
An example of such an abuser: a friend was blamed by her husband because she contracted COVID. He also tried to isolate her from her family and friends early in their relationship. He plays these mind games with her in that his way is normal and good but hers isn't.
It's exhausting dealing with emotional abuse.
Unfortunately, I don't see the overwhelming majority of pastors as being equipped to handle counseling for things like this. They generally rely on Biblical platitudes. All it is to me is putting a bandaid on a broken leg.
@@jasonreed2116 And God bless you.
I would submit that, along the lines of Christ's statements "by their fruits you will know them" and "they will know you belong to me by your love for one another", abuse is NOT a problem in Christian marriages by virtue of the fact that a Christian will not abuse. The so-called Christian marriages where there is an abuse problem are not actually Christian marriages.
Also, regarding the meaning of the word "abuse": I'm thinking there are really 2 different definitions:
one, outward horrible behavior such as name calling, physical fighting, etc. Probably nearly everybody has done this at some point, at least in childhood, not so much as an adult. Very wrong but not necessarily destructive, EXCEPT alongside:
two, determination to manipulate and control the relationship, often but not always using tactics such as verbal/physical abuse. So this more toxic case can and does happen covertly, and is harder to identify & solve.
This video is an example of how biblical thinking (an oxymoron) can lead one down the road to Stupid Town.
Can you explain what you mean
Christians cannot divorce an unbeliever spouse. You will be the cause for them to stumble.Thats why Paul only allowed the believing to stay separate and remained unmarried or reconcile. 1 corinthians 7 : 10 - 11. But if a unbeliving wants to leave then let it go - 1 corinthians 7 : 15.
Any truly abused spouse in a marriage should avoid the church at all cost. The church will always side with the abuser. The church will guilt you into staying.
Mike is a pastor of a church, saying in this very video that there are certain rare instances where divorce and fleeing are the best decision. So it’s very weird for you to say “churches will always side with the abuser” in a comment section of a video refuting that.
@@christiankreiter I mean can you blame the person for being skeptical? You have both men and women in the comment section sharing experiences about their abusive spouses and how their pastors dismissed them. You have Christians replying to them with Bible verses, telling them they're wrong for leaving. Where's the compassion? Rachael Denhollander has done studies/surveys with abuse survivors who ranked the church among the least helpful when it came to dealing with the abuse they faced. Those are just a few examples but sadly the church in general has not shown itself to be a refuge for people trying to get help for this particular issue.
It is a common misconception that Matthew 18:15-20 is about church discipline. It is not. The "brother" in v15 is a fellow Jew. That brother is gained for the Kingdom if he admits sin. Jesus tells the disciples they should no longer consider the man as a Jew (v17) if he does not admit his sin. The verses that follow (verses 21-35 - the parable of the unforgiving servant) are a response to Peter about his question on continued forgiveness. This whole passage from v15 is the use of law and gospel (total forgiveness for those who acknowledge their sins) and is about church recruitment from the disciples' fellow Jews. As for gentiles today, they need to be taught the law properly before church discipline is needed. As for divorce - Jesus is clear about that issue in the next chapter (19). Today increasing numbers of women are divorcing men because they are hard-hearted. Matthew 19:8 was advice to hard-hearted men in Moses' day. It should also apply to hard hearted women today. They should not marry.
Wasn't this a little bit of stretch - first take him as an unbeliever, than divorce him. I'm afraid someone can abuse this. I like Your other teachings but with this one, I'm not sure. I know, there are difficult situations, but does not apply then- they should separate (not divorce).
Excatly Seperate Not divorce
Does porn justify divorce?
In some cases yes, others no. This is a hard issue. If the user is an addict, they need help. If they refuse help the marriage will begin to fall apart. Pornography is mentally cheating in your head before you ever take the step to do so physically, and yes, that is definitely where it leads in the long term. It's severely damaging to the brain as well. Seek help for yourself if you're the addict, and seek help for yourself because you need healing and advice. Seek help from multiple sources like a licensed therapist AND a Christian counselor. Get well rounded advice from both to balance yourself with wisdom
@@morninglynn6281 I know it's a sin that needs to stop especially when my wife and I were still together and I was hiding it from her. I have been getting counsel and doing a purity devotional. Being "single" now, I do tend to justify it being that I use it to relieve lust. I don't feel like an addict as it's anywhere from 3 times a week to one every 2 weeks.
I would say yes
@@jesuslovesyou-matts but your not relieving lust by watching porn, you are giving into it. You are not married to them and you are experiencing their sexuality, it’s wrong…
@@jasonreed2116 I know that verse well and good.
Woweeee the mental gymnastics that has to go along with being a “believer” is fascinating.
Not everything in the Bible is black and white you are lazy if you refuse to apply biblical principles. With you're logic pedophilia is okay because the bible never explicitly mentions having sex with children.
Is you reasoning "Life isn't simple, therefore the Bible isn't true."? That's not rational. Simple answers to complicated situations are often wrong.
Do you mean just being a believer generally?
I disagree that it requires mental gymnastics to be a believer. But Mike is absolutely doing mental gymnastics in this video to justify divorce
@@mlwilson2956 Alright, I can see that. Thanks for reframing.
2Cor 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?you can be nice, never devorse, never kill, always going to church etc...but you look outside yourself and called REPROBATES.
God/ Holy Spirit doesn't find fault to justify anything. He just advises us on the loving thing to do. Humans have come up with judgment, fault and sin. God is only love. For that reason, the Bible has lots of human reasoning that is not God's.
Lot of the comments on the church here makes me sad. A lot of people are way too quick to diss the bride of Christ. We are part of the same body that we insult here guys. I know wouldn't be happy with people putting down my wife, need to tread carefully before being so quick to put down the church :(
Yeahhh people are just over it