Scraping a Camelback Straight Edge Flat
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ย. 2017
- In this third part of this series, I will show how I took a milled and ground camelback straight edge and scraped it flat to 35-40 points per inch using a Biax power scraper using the Richard King method.
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It is hard to believe that you can do this more accurately by hand than you can with all that high tech machinery.
One of the most comprehensive scraping videos I have seen, thanks for taking the time to do this.
I usually come for the random project videos, but that was a GREAT tutorial. Thank you for taking your time to walk us through it.
Thanks much Keith. I certainly appreciate this great video. This has been a great
lesson for me. Wishing you many joyful days.
Most excellent video Keith...! Wonderful to see the step by step... I now have a better understanding of the goal... Cheers, Daniel.
Incredible video Keith. Thanks for taking the time to do this--definitely explains the process.
Keith, thanks for taking the time to put this video together. It is videos like this one which will help continue the art of scraping. I would love to attend one of Richard King's classes but its an expensive exercise for anyone living outside of the United States. Your videos and other youtube videos are a great help for those who have read all the literature but still hungry for "hands on" experience. This is the next best thing. I, for one am looking forward to continued scraping info when you start on the Monarch. Please keep them coming. Greg (Australia)
Great video!! Please take this as a compliment - because it is meant that way: you make it seem like much more of a process and less like some sort of dark art. Thanks!
Excellent(!) video, Keith. You hit it just right, and I am sure Richard will be proud of you for it. I will be attending one of Richard's classes in the spring, and this video will help me get to work on improving the mostly sucky work I am doing now before then. Thanks!
Love it Keith. As a young man just about to finish business school, who's trying to pick up a few hand skills in metal and wood (without many people available in my family/friend circles to mentor me), I really enjoyed your video! Can't wait to see more scraping
Thank you Mr. Rucker for demonstrating what other so call experts stand at their machines and talk about. I never really understood surface scrapping until now. You are a great teacher sir. Thanks for sharing your talents.
I've been waiting to see how it's done. I was surprised at how much contrast there was between high and low. I'm looking forward to when you use it on the lathe and explain what exactly the straight edge is helping you to do better. Thank Richard King for me, it was his classes that made more scrapers and teachers of scraping for the future. High precision work by hand won't disappear.
Thanks Keith, And if you can, keep bringing us along as you get more experience scraping.
Keith thanks for taking the amount of time you did to demo this art. If your going to do something do it right and you have shown this trait time and time again. You are one of my favorite sites that I rarely miss. Thanks again.
Awesome video, it's so cool to see something become so flat with hand work.
Great vid Keith.I used to work at a company in the UK called Wellworthy.They had at the time 80% of the world Diesel engine component manufacture.Sadly no longer.In the factory they had a skilled section that manufactured large machines for export.I got to see the section.And they were using 4 ft camelbacks.How I wish I could have worked there.( no chance) Great vid,love to see the old skills.
Keith, for cheap lint free paper towels try coffee filters. Regular cheapo by the 100 pack coffee filters.
Very interesting video Keith. To me the most important part was explaining the purpose of scraping, I hadn't thought about that. It was also not at all what I expected. I figured it might be like hand jointing a wooden surface with a long plane.
Keith, your power scraping is getting pretty good: very steady and regular!
Very entertaining and good video planning.,,Love the closeups. I have always admired the beautiful, frosty surfaces of hand scraped ways. I think the bench shake would drive me crazy.
Very good explanation of the stages and what way to go about each stage.
Very good video. Many many years ago, I became a 'master' rated scraper. Back in the olden days, we would make our scrapers out of 'annealed and drawn' 10" mill bastard files. We would hand grind the ends for the radius and cutting angle, and put it into a 'paddle'. Imagine the handgrip end of a baseball bat, but cut off 8 inches up. The tang of the file would go into the sawn off end, and the 'swell' at the bottom of the bat would go against the hip bone, held there by the right hand. The left hand would control the downward force and tip of the scraping end. To scrape, you shoved forward with your hip, and you could 'hog' maybe .002 to .004" at a time. You could also 'touch' the surface like that, and remove just the blue by tipping the scraper and take off maybe .0001.
My 'fine' surface high point count was determined by how many points in the diameter of a dime. To get my master rate, my demo project was re-truing three horribly worn 18x24 cast iron plates. I used the Whitworth method, and got them to 10 points to a dime, with the worst measured deviation of less than .0007 anywhere on any plate. The local NBS lab kept one of my plates for their lab after they certified them.
That was then, but now a days, no one wants that sort of actual precision or accuracy. It would cost way to much to get anything that absolutely flat now a days. "Grind it to within .002" is good enough" is the standard in lots of industries.
Ahhh, it takes me right back to the class. Happy holidays, Keith !
Nice job of clear explanation of progression through the process, Keith. I still need to find a dovetail camelback.
That is a beautiful workshop!
Good stuff Keith, enjoyed!
ATB, Robin
I love this video thank you for sharing what you have learned from the scraping classes!
Thanks for sharing Keith
Nice job Keith.
I'd give it two thumbs up if I could. Been waiting for this video since you hosted the first scraping class.
Kieth,First comment. Very well done.
On straight edges, I was tought, to not worry about the angle needing to be parallel to the bottom.So you are just scraping to separate flat areas.
If you needed to test a part with a dove tail, you stick the angle into the slot, and transfer blue.
Looking forward to this transferring to the Monarch.
You mean its not already "scraped" from the "factory"? Hmm. Weird how so few manufacturers of brand-new "precision" tools, machines, instruments etc seem to need "scraping" to produce new products and "scraping" seems to be limited to "hand scraping" of used and worn "precision" tools, machines, instruments etc and in this case a "new" so-called "straight-edge" somebody is "scraping" from a new "casting" that must be "flat" and "level" enough that the SCRAPING ON TOP OF IT HAS A GOOD "FOUNDATION" UNDER IT, HUH?
There is something about a scraped surface that is so beautiful. It is like a painting where a person has carefully daubed their paint brush to create something beautiful. What you have created is not only functional but great to look at as well.
Thanks for showing the tips ☺
Great video! Thanks for sharing
You made it look nice Keith !!! An now you have valuable tool. I am hesitating to do the gibs on my Chinese 10" lathe since I don't want to ruin it. I will make time to blue it to see where the high spots are and proceed from there. Nice video.
I really like the planer in the background..would be great to see that scraped back in and re furbished ;-)
It would be great to see close ups of the surface at each point of the process and a final scanned close up of the entire surface both blued and clean.
Wow this was great!!
I worked at Bardons & Oliver machine Co.
We built Turret lathes, Cutoff lathes, and Special Machinery.
We never used factory made hand scrapers, or power scrapers for scraping our machine tool ways.
We made our own from old files, and they worked perfectly.
The only factory made scrapers we used were curved scrapers used in scraping bores.
If someone wants to do flat scraping without the expense of purchasing a scraper, one can be easily made from an old file.
wow you then must hold alot of knowledge from those times... did you solder carbide to your modified metal files? also I think I never heard of scraping in bores to precision.. how was it checked? wow it had to be hard to do that
You do not need carbide, the file itself is plenty hard enough to scrape cast or ductile iron.
It only need to be sharpened once in a while on an India stone.
GREAT VIDEO !!! MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU & YOURS !
Thanks Keith. I had no idea what was involved in scraping.
thousands of years :). still, great video. I just had to comment. Thank you for this, and all of the videos, actually.
As usual, good vid.
THANK YOU...for sharing.
Nice work
great video Keith. I have taken the class the video makes a good review but taking the class is a much better way of learning to scrape>
Very interesting, I'm glad you chose to do a longer video on this one. Can you estimate how long to worked on the flat side?
Another great video Keith learned a lot must say funny how it's called a straight edge but it's not used for marking out as such
OUTSTANDING!! THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME!!!
Great explanation and demonstration of the process. Thanks Keith!
Thanks for sharing this, Keith
So appreciate.
Could you say how long you were doing this from the begining to the end?
Thank you for a great video- I have a question relating to the straightedge moving over time. If the shape allows, would you just be better off using a granite bar for marking high spots rather than the cast iron straightedge?
That wobble in the table,suggests you need some bracing!.interesting video,thankyou.
Hello Keith,
thanks for sharing your scraping skills!
The sense of a scraped surface for dovetail guides makes sense to me. The valleys around each high spots provides space for lubrication, this prevents a stick-slip effect and wear.
What I don't understand is why a measurement tool like your Camelback Straight Gauge is scraped.
I expect high accuracy and high precision from a measuring device like a straight gauge. Smooth sliding in a dovetail guide is only secondary. The best example is your granite table - absolutly smooth and flat!
Would it not be better to grind and lap the ruler?
Cheers, Arthur
Keith thank you for this video it was an awesome teaching video for people who can't take Richards class i feel that unfortunately you missed a very important point out that leaves me with the question how do you blue up the dove tail
personally i am not a machinist but find these sort of videos very interesting maybe there's something i have missed because i am not a machinist would it be possible for you to address this in your next video
Wow - we really can be a hard bunch to please!! I don't like the shill videos, I don't like the videos that mis-represent or downright lie about things but I find it hard to fault a guy for making a video that's "right" even though it doesn't happen to interest me. I didn't realise quite how disinterested I was in scraping, it's not something I need or would do ... but I still "get it" and I watched most of it partly so I understood the process, you never know ... and partly to see if I was wrong, I'm not.
But I've been fascinated by almost all of Kieth's other videos, some of the restorations have been works of art, I take my hat off to guys who build the best hi-fi or do the best paint job - or just aspire to get the best whatever it is - I get that completely, doesn't mean I'd want one but I do admire the dedication and skill. Some things just have to be as right as you can make them. No other reason is necessary.
Sick!
I'm completely new to this amazing process. I'm not personally involved in the actual process, but really enjoy watching these videos. I have a question about the dyes. If they are made by grinding pigments could these dyes be somewhat abrasive and cause wear patterns on your reference slab?
Very good overview, Did you guys talk to Richard about redoing his training video, between You Sanders and Lipton that would be worth paying a few bucks for. Extend one of your next classes, film Richard for some of the instructions, and you all supplying actual scraping examples? Just sayin' , he will not be around forever.
Just out of curiosity. What would the bluing pattern looked like if you had blued directly off of the grinder? Informative work, Thanks!
I would just like to know I'm going to be rebuilding my Bridgeport mill would you recommend the 36" or some other size straight edge?
Great video. Thanks. What grit stone were you using ?
Thanks for an excellent instructional video! I am not as skilled as You, have only done some flat surfaces for my projects and machine shop. I consider scraping as a very valuable skill to master for several reasons since much of my work is tool making and other precision type chores for prototyping stuff. It´s a bit of a lost art, I really never learned how to do it properly and actually learned a lot from the TH-cam videos out there. I second the value of finish scraping stuff from the surface grinder, it also has aesthetic appeal and gives an impression of high quality to the work....whether its needed or not...
How do You verify that a long slim workiece like this does not become convex lengthwise? None of the tests You show seems to indicate this. It seems like it will easily wiggle sideways on the plate. I guess It is possible to intentionally scrape it a little concave initially and work from there, but is there a better way?
Also to the people tired of scraping - this info is very valuable to some of us. Depends on what You are doing. More please.
Keith. Love your channel. If I were to have a straight edge cast, what kind of cast iron should I request? Thanks in advance. - ShopBoy69
Yeah thousands of years. When I talk with my very young grandkids and I say, back thousands of years ago when I was just a kid, they don't bat an eye and say wow grandpa, you must be really old. And then at the hospital when that cute young lady asks for my DOB , she stops for a minute looks up at me smiles and writes it in. I respond with, yeah dirt was just starting to appear. I just love seeing some folks writing in, to bring us up to date with the correct info, hundreds not thousands of years : ) . Well at least they are watching. I wonder if they are part of the thumbs down votes. I sure liked this video, even though I will never use the info. I just jot the info into my BOUF , that's book of useless facts. I had a Army buddy that carried one of those little green notebooks that said BOUF on the cover. If I said something noteworthy he would say "Wait Bart, let me jot that down in my BOUF." Some day, just maybe it will be helpful. Great job Keith...Ken, the really old guy.
great vid. How did you smash your finger ?
Like the cross hatches in the
Cylinder of a engine... helps with
oil distribution... makes a lot since.....
well it does to me anyway....
Great video. Maybe the only thing you did not show is “ringing” the part by tapping all over with a dead blow plastic soft faced hammer to help release residual stresses introduced in the casting by the scraping process. I learned that in a recent Richard King introductory scraping class.
Hi Keith you sure need some patience to get to your goal. I guess you spent 3 - 4 hours so far. I still dont quite follow how you use the camel back on your lathe so I will have to wait for that video. BTW where is your nice mongrammed apron!
Happy thanksgiving from the UK
So,now you have contact on the base,and the 45,but how do you make sure the 45 true to the base all the way down?Do you have a video on how to do that?I am wanting to make one also.Also if you have say a 24" or 36" straight edge,how do you use it to check the entire length of a lathe bed that is way longer than your straight-edge?Thank You for sharing!
Take it in sections, and pay attention to overlapping them - I recommend the Edward F. Connelly book "Machine tool reconditioning and applications of hand scraping" which is the bible, really!If the base and the bevel edge are both straight and flat, the angle between them can't be anything other than the same angle all the way along, that's Jommetry :) It doesn't need to be 45* anyway, unless you're using it as a gauge - if you're making surfaces mate you only need to get them both flat and can do similar blueing for contact.
I would strongly stress the importance of the radius and the size of the scraper blade, or it`s width to put it that way... I know im late to the party, but a wide arc, wide blade scraper will take off sub micron cuts if you need it, but a 1/4 inch wide scraper with the same arc will gouge deeper just due to pressure difference from the contact area decrease when compared to a wider blade... You can shape your scrape marks with custom scraper arcs and different widths of the blade... You can define the low spots with custom scrapers, and widen the high spots with a flat ground stone or a flat lap with frangible grit that doesn`t charge the surfaces... You can also as a newbie make nasty gouges with a narrow scraper with an acute arc to it... Robin Renz has a great section in one of his videos on this topic, i can`t remember the name of the video, but practically know all of his videos by heart, so i know that it`s somewhere among his works...
Otherwise, a good scraping instructional video...
All the best and kind regards!
Steuss
Sorry I may not understand correctly. Would a larger radius not make a wider cut? Thats the only thing that confuses me. Great video, never tried scraping but would love to give it a go if I ever get space to set up some things. Thanks for your time.
So glad to have found this. Very well presented. So well I think I can do it. I would like to know if after reaching 40p or so, can it be lapped down smooth for applications that dont need lubrication. Like just a normal straight edge used to lay on a surface and check for gaps with light. Or can lapping be used instead of scraping when a smooth surface is wanted. blue it up and sand it off?
Sure, lapping is possible to do, but for what you are using it for, scraping is probably a lot faster and gives the same results in the end for it's function.
I will be needing a smooth surface. And i know scraping is faster. And i will try it. But can I then lap it smooth after I get close. How low are the low points? Wil I still have to lap .001?
Oh! Thanks for your reply.
I had no idea people have been hand scraping metal for thousands of years
it wasn´t :D
Without the explanations, how much actual work time (scraping, bluing, checking, rinse, repeat) did you actual take to scrape this straight edge in? Great video, thanks, Rick
It is interesting how were made first machine tools when there were no machine tools?
How do you spot the other side - the dovetail side of the camel back, and make sure it is hinging ok?
What does Richard King think of you doing this type of video? Will you have him back for another class?
Is there any practical way to scrape a machine without having a professional straight edge of any sort? I have a very old mill the knee moves up n down very easily on the upper part of its range, but the lower is rather hard (minimal wear there I assume) I would like to spend some time with this machine in the future trying to fix it up a lil bit (no intention of making it perfect to the 1/2 thou) its never going to be as nice as a modern Bridgeport, but would just like to make it a lil better. Any thoughts?
The first bluing, the high spots were mainly on the ends where you were light on the first scraping. So, what would the bluing on the granite plate show after the surface grinding and before any scraping?
Smeared ink.
Troll "chris0tube". Not true. It would indicate, that you are out of bluing compound capability ("resolution"), or you are rather preventing bluing from work (almost completely). You need some surface texture to break the oil film ("blueing" base ingredient).
Chris, you can scrape a set of three surface plates from raw plate, it's how the first were generated and made accurate to millionths of an inch. No clever machines, just skill, patience and care required.You blue the reference as it's easier to identify blued points of contact on the part you need to flatten than try to read holes in the blueing.
Or the third way of scraping..... Get out the Anderson Power Scraper. Great video Keith, Cheers!
I actually have a friend who has an Anderson Power Scraper and have used it. It takes some getting used to, but it is not nearly as versatile as a Biax. My friend also has a Biax and only uses the Anderson Power Scraper to show how they used to do it....
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org Yeah they do take some getting used to. He put a pretty embarrassing TH-cam video of me trying to learn how to use it.
Keith where can the canode inks be purchased?
I wish you would've shown the blueing of the corner with how the angle was.
I want to buy a straight edge like that. Where to buy?
nice introduction. one question: how do you check the 45 degrees? or is it not as acurate beside flat? cheers.
The dovetails on machines are typically 60 degrees, so the angle just needs to be less than that to check inside them. If you were making lots of machines with the exact same dovetail then maybe you'd want your straight edge angle to match, so you could check both surfaces in one pass.
ok, I get it, so you tilt the straightedge up to make contact. would be tricky to get the 60 degrees scraped in to high accuracy.thanks.
It's not as tricky as doing an internal 60 like you find on a dovetail slide, but it's a lot of work if you don't need it.
I love machinery,lathes n milling machines but to my untrained eye you took a perfectly flat machined surface and turned it into a rumble strip... I would need to see it to appreciate it
Yep. It makes no sense why you would mill and grind something flat... then destroy it.Furthermore, if you really want to destroy it, then why not just use a cutter and create a nice uniform (and FLAT) pattern across the surface?
@@johncoops6897 In the video he thoroughly explains that the entire reason you don't want it to be entirely flat is so that lube can actually move between the surfaces. You wouldn't want it to be a uniform pattern because you want that oil to pool and move between those spaces. If you made a uniform pattern you would just end up with that oil ending up inside those grooves.
Hi Keith. That's an awful amount of work to get something close to perfectly flat. Is it really worth it?
YES.
huge thanks for sharing what youve learnt Keith. great video, really good!
wowsers new technque to me ...btw what happened to the index finger nail...looks sore!
Did you drain that fingernail? You can damage the bed if you leave pressure too long. A red hot flat tip straight pin will melt the nail like butter, and the blood squirt will cool the tip before you hit the quick..... Feels like heaven when it drains....
I just use a really small drill bit turned by hand.
That always hurts too much for me. I can't stand any pressure on my nail once I blow up a blood balloon under the nail. I spent an hour trying that the last time.... the hot pin just penetrates with no pressure.... I had to reheat a couple times, but man, the relief.....
Oil puddling in the "low spots" turns into "slurry" when the metal off the "high spots" mixes with it. Eventually "lapping" the two surfaces together but only if lubricant is continually added to the "mix".
I wonder if you could mill a straighter and flatter "edge" if your mill wasn't up on 4x4s at each end of its frame...
So when it looks like the side of a crappie, it's good!
Are they stressed relived after the surface grinding?
Shop onomatopoeia...
Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. (hand scraping with Vintage Machinery)
Tapi, tap, tap. (making it fit with AvE)
What did you do to your finger Keith.
Looks like a bit of an oops and a few choice words to me.
Thanks for posting this.
you can bet he said 'oh my goodness' almost loud enough for those standing next to him to hear
Improper use of a thumb detector... most likely. :)
Wouldn't you need a much longer camelback for your lathe ways? Or is this only for the carriage/tail stock?
And how was the angled of the dovetail checked for angle and parallelness?
The angle portion does not necessarily need to be parrallel with the bottom, as it is used independently on it's own. It also does not to be at any specific angle, only need to be able to get into a dovetail to blue up...likely 59 degrees or less, but 45 degree allows for a wider range of dovetail angles ...a bit hard to explain, but am sure Keith will show using it at some point.
I am sure Keith will show it at one point. As Jim points out the angled side is not for measuring angles, it is for allowing the SE to get into dovetails. Sometimes you even use the bottom to spot the dovetail, the parallelism or angle is not something that is aimed for or measured on a straight edge, because you only ever use one side. The length ideally should be longer than the entire length of the part you want to spot, but you can use a shorter standard to spot a longer part, you just have to be careful to use it with small overlaps and only scrape in the areas that you are convinced that are higher. Scraping is an incredibly simple thing by itself the, but the application of metrology and the decisions to brings things in alignment are a result of lifetime learning and discovery, the pros will tell you that :). I am just a student of the art.
Here is a short vid i made of my 4' SE I scraped a while back th-cam.com/video/3dY2HxSCyTg/w-d-xo.html. I used a hand scraper, and was spotted on a 3' surface in steps. The SE is made form a discarded lathe bed, it is about 3" wide. Unless you have a bed with a very long dovetail to scrape an 18" SE with the dovetail will serve you for almost anything. The longer a dovetail SE, the unwieldier it gets. You supposed to hinge the SE in the dovetail to find the highs, the longer it is the less you can swing it, the heavier it is, the harder it is to get the "feel" for the hinge. So i decided not to put a angled part on my 4' SE. I have more pieces to make short one with the angled part.
Nope, you do not need to fix the angle of a dovetail, you need to have the male and female parts fit seamlessly. Most dovetails on machines are just approximately some angle. The only things you need to fix is what is affecting the accuracy of the slide. Whether the angle is 59.7345 degrees or 60.12345 is irrelevant. What is relevant whether the sides are parallel at any height, the base is coplanar, etc. If you are making 10,000 machines and all parts must fit, sure you need absolute precision, but when you have one machine to make perfect, only the mating surfaces need to mate, the rest is not relevant. Once you have one part scraped to the straight edge then you use that part as the master and scrape the other parts to it. A good resource is archive.org/details/MachineToolReconditioningEdwardF.Connelly or the Moore book Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy mooretool.com/publications.html.
The reason you want a straight edge with a 45 degree dovetail edge is to be able to fit into any dovetail that is above 45 degrees. Also it is not possible to spot two sides at the same time, the only way you can verify an angle is by measuring it, not by trying to spot it.
Take Richards class, fix a few machines, and lets talk.
dee
;-D
Hey it is not like there is only one way to do everything, i am just telling you what i learned. I learned, a Straight Edge with a 45 degree or so dovetails is much more versatile than one with a 60 or so degree. To measure the actual angle I just use some metrology or precision gages. Also meshing together two surfaces scraped to anything better than 20 PPI, is a statistical improbability, you will always have at least 3 points touching. Using a scraped part as a master for the next part is very accepted practice, and if meshing was a problem, you would have that with the straight edge as well. Those are some of the things Richard is teaching. He was a rebuilder for all his life, learned the trade form his father. He might not be at level of Moore on theory, but he has rebuilt just about every imaginable machine tool.
So far every lesson or advise i had from him works as advertised.
Edit:
Chris, I definitely do not want to make this out to be something where i do not accept other people's experiences or opinions. Before i took Richard's class i also thought you needed a master with the correct angle for each dovetail, i thought V-Ways on surface grinders had to be exactly 90 degrees and level, i had a lot of misconceptions about precision mechanics, After the class all that was out the window. You have to realize the rebuilders had to minimize the tool chest they carried around, use minimum metrology to verify the results, get the work done in minimum time. Their job was not to make parts that mate on any of the 10,000 lathes put out of the factory. They had to make the one machine in front of them work as well or better than new. Practices emerge from that goal. The first thing we were taught is to figure out what has to be done with the machine, where is the wear, what was the intended working envelope of the mechanics that you need to restore, look for the unworn surfaces measure from there and and establish a map. Build the structure from one reference to the other and make things fit together and perform together, that means that you may actually have parts in a rebuilt machine that are way out of spec form a new part, but brings the machine back to its original precision. Richard said it multiple times people who worry about the geometry of individuals parts over the final precision goals of the machine, are wasting their time. A perfect 60 degree dovetail does not work any better than a 58 degree dovetail, you just wont be able to interchange parts with a machine that was not scraped together. This may sound like i am a shill for the guy who thought me, but it could not be farther from the truth, i am doing what Richard has asked all of us to do is to let others know what he learned and taught us. You are free to ignore all of that, and do what is working for you, machine rebuilding is far from a dictatorship.
I thought "camelback" referred to the shape of the top (handle) of the straight edge: a dome like shape resembling the back of a camel.
Great video, great info. Nice to learn something new from someone who isn’t 20 years old and has 6 months experience.