@@immortalnightbodyno matter how much things change=wrestling and wrestlers evolve Some things stay the same=the past generation insults it and says it's a disgrace to professional wrestling. I listened to the whole and understood what the OP was saying. Maybe it's you who took it wrong, not the 1.4k that liked it.
That is just a perfect example. I’m so glad that Scott compare those two quotes/perspectives because it’s kind of what wrestling is now but at the same time it’s a perfect logic of explanation and I’m glad that Scott understands how it works
I find it funny that most people will almost always say that the “golden age of wrestling” is whatever lines up with when they were kids/introduced to wrestling.
It's like how everyone says "music was so much better before" without realizing that when they were young, that's the exact same thing their parents said about music then. 😂
tbh lou thesz's work looks more serious than the clips of what we see of lewis. granted, lewis was past his prime by then, but it looks more like a contest by thesz, to my eye anyway. not more like competitive wrestling, but it looks competitive in its own right. look at lou vs verne gagne
@@FFmaxxxas a Gen x, I see somethings in society as terrible (mostly in music), but I also feel a lot of things overall as better. And I always say in regards to music, we all need to remember that our particular generations of music was noise to the ones before ours. Pretty sure some kid in the 30's listening to Glen Miller heard his parents yelling "turn that crap down!"😂😂
Harley was brilliant, I'm a younger wrestling fan so I obviously didn't see him in his prime but watching the people he influenced as well as watching his matches just shows how brilliant he was. It is interesting to see how many people from the generation before Harley had doubts in his style of wrestling. Great interview as always Chris
I am sure he hated his influence, considering the two guys copying his finisher move were Dynamite Kid and Chris Benoit... he oulived both, whatever mush their brains were after so many diving headbutts missing.
Something I never knew about Harley until after his passing is the NWA didn’t want him anywhere near the heavyweight title because he had tattoos speaking about the evolution of wrestling
@@LOSKOSKI When Dory pretty much refused to drop the title to Jack they had to find an interim champion and when Race was brought up the board rejected it at first because of the outlandish bumps he took and what some people on the board thought was just not acceptable for a champion were the tattoos he had. If you love the history of wrestling I strongly suggest get the Death of the Territories audiobook or the physical book because it’s awesome
Paul Bearer did a shoot interview about working a match with Lou Thesz. Paul screwed up a spot and Lou Thesz cussed him out and Bearer thought his career in wrestling was over when he just started it.
Bro have you seen what wrestling used to look like When Lou Thesz was wrestling? it was all chain wrestling and selling it like it was a real fight, In Lou Thesz perspective it was goofy because it was compared to that, Now Goofy can be entretaining. But before when Thesz was wrestling it was supposed to be "real" and so it was when Race was so that is why it was weird. Now personally i think Thesz era wrestling its booring but he kinda had a point.
"I hate AEW! Orange Cassidy is too small, he's unbelievable and he ruins my immersion! Anyways, my favorite wrestler is the Undead Necromancer from Hell." 😅
@@doodtheman2508 its not his size, its his terrible gimmick that has run it' course. In ring he is okay, and at least sells more then a lot of guys. But the whole gimmick is past it's due date in my opinon. But do love the comment about necromancer from hell funny
I can see what Lou was talking about. If you look back at wrestling in the 70s and 80s you can see how wrestling was way different than what wrestling was/is in the 90s-present. The way they sell, the moves that they pull off, the pace of the matches, etc.
Not really. Rasslin didn’t alter much during those years. It was Dynamite & the rest of the JP strong style guys & MEX high fliers that switched up the game, but their influence wasn’t felt in murica until the 00s
@@MiketheNerdRanger yeah, really absurd to think the guys doing diving headbuts might end bad, look at Dynamite Kid and Chris Benoit, two guys famously known for copying Harley Race.
There's a film called Night and the City from 1950 which features Stanislaus Zbyszko. His character basically complains about the state of the current wrestlers and how showy it all is. A few years back when I first saw it it kind of made me realise that point that's being made here.
If you go to Zbyszko's Wikipedia page you can read about a double cross where Zybsko double crossed and shot on Wayne Munn. He was able to do so because Zybsko had legitimate catch wrestling experience but Munn was a former football player promoters were trying to turn into a new world champion. Zybsko's actions are probably the reason why promoters kept the belt on Lou Thesz for so long. He was a legit catch wrestler who could handle himself if someone tried to shoot on him and make the world champion look bad.
D’Amore seems like an absolutely intelligent man when it comes to the business. Whatever I’ve read of him, heard from him, seen him do, he just seems like a brilliant mind for pro wrestling. Such a shame TNA shit on him.
@BilalYousef-qy7dzhe was just as Ridiculous as Harley. Basically He's a Hypocrite. So is every old wrestlers. When people grow old. They shout at the clouds. While hardcore fans take it as like a Holy Script.
I wish every wrestling fan online would have to watch this clip. So sick of hearing how much better is was back whenever. It will always evolve. I loved wrestling when I was a kid, but also love wrestling now.
mOdErN rAsSliN is flipp sh1t *watches Ric Flair flip over turnbuckle* and they're not realistic *Nature Boy walks 5 meters before flopping after a punch*
That is an awesome take. My initial thoughts was that it’d be someone like Harley race talking about Bret hart. So imagine my surprise when it’s about Harley.
I think it's funny how this can be an example for anything in life. So many times we hear stuff like this in other facets of life and it's the same. The cyclical nature of it all.
Wow. What a perspective I never heard before. Times always change and the older generation will always think their generation was best. But 30 years from wrestling will be so different and we will say our generation was best. The cycle goes on and on
Scott has one of the most creative minds. He’s a legit wrestling genius. The guy knows psychology, he understands philosophy, and he can teach better than most of the people doing it presently. He’s an asset to any team that has him. No shit.
Here after hearing Stevie Richards drone on for 45 minutes about how Ricochet has no concept of wrestling psychology and is too choreographed and reminds him of Jackie Chan movies. The amount of dusty ass wrestling fans who grew up watching Andre the Giant and Hulk body wrestle 5 dwarves, or idolized both DDP and Macho Man who were notorious for strictly planning and choreographing their matches now dump on new wrestlers for being all spots and no psychology. It's okay to see someone wrestle and decide it's not for you, but so many of the guys that get so much shit online are beloved by fans in person, and it feels like these guys are calling the audience idiots for not getting that what they're watching isn't 'real' wrestling because it isn't what they like or are accustomed to seeing.
Been watching since the 70's and while things have changed from more "sport" to entertainment, I also believe it got better. Perfect example is the most recent "Last monster standing match." Back in the 70's, 80's, and even the early 2000's with RARE exceptions, that would have been two brutes punching and slamming each other.
I mean it's totally true. Dusty Rhodes wrestling in the 70s looks cartoonish compared to most wrestlers today but I'm sure most Dusty fans would say the opposite
This is why I consider Scotty up there with Heyman in terms of the real academic voices in the wrestling game. He doesn’t pander to the rubes by sh!tting all over whatever parts of the “current product” move the most clicks, but instead looks at wrestling in terms of being a wonderful and ridiculous culture that’s always working against itself in terms of trends. Bischoff, Corny and Russo could take a page or two out of his book (and hell, might actually still be working IN the business if they did, rather than podcasting to sell t-shirts).
It's so strange. I was into wrestling between 1993 and 1995- after Hogan left but before the Attitude Era. It was such a bizzare time with the MOST cartoony characters.
In my opinion guys like Vince McMahon, Eric Bischoff, and Vince Russo did pretty much irreversible damage to pro wrestling when they basically decided that the way to present pro wrestling was to basically turn pro wrestling into a parody of itself
Thesz was a 100% legit and excellent catch wrestler. Part of the reason he held the belt so long is because it would he impossible for an opponent to shoot on him and humiliate the world champion. He could handle problems himself, especially as catch wrestling wasn't something that many people learned at that time. To get wrestling on the Olympic games in 1912 the rules were changed to get rid of all the submission holds, thus creating freestyle wrestling.
Emimem had a good one in Without Me comparing to what he did back then to what Elvis did even before him. Both being controverse artists for their respective times and now both are hailed as great artists.
Some of us are old enough to remember when. Jim Cornett was managing the teams that are too small to be believable in Mid-South wrestling. Now the cycle has gone a full 180 and Cornett. Is the guy complaining about other wrestlers being too small
I was gonna guess a super old guy (maybe Buddy Rogers or smth) and the 'new gen' wrestler to be Hulk Hogan. I knew the quote had to be timeless, but I didn't expect Scott to go that far into history 😅
I KNEW it was gonna be a guy talking about Harley Race! Because there's no one else who could be on the receiving end of that quote that would illustrate D'amore's point better
Way cool 😎! I'm 70yo now. I've been watching wrestling since about 1st grade. Me and Great Grandma loved wrestling! I have watched the Greats. I have seen a lot of changes. But, to me, it's still, The Greatest Show on Earth! Lol 😂. The Atomik sends. Peace ✌. ❤
I started watching WWF in the mid 80's. I never watched Territories, so when King Harley Race was in WWF he was a shiveled old man who always lost... We called him King Can't Hardly Win Race... It took until I was in my 30's to know he was a badass and the Man in the 70's.
and that’s the thing no matter what people say about you you will always will be a champion in the peoples eyes, and you will always will be a legend in the peoples heart, and you will always will be a Hall of Famer with the whole world remembering your name even if they don’t appreciate you or anybody else you will shut them up and prove them wrong
And let's settle this "better back in.." argument now. As someone who actually watched AWA when I was a kid, not on home video, or TH-cam, I can guarantee most people say that line only remember highlight matches. They conveniently forget how many times we had to sit through matches like Greg Gange vs. "Joey local talent", 2 dozen promos of guys just saying how tough they were, and the promotion advertising 20 times about SuperCard, just to get to see a match like Verne, "I'm the booker so I held the title forever," Gange vs. Larry Zybysco cut off half way through because it ALWAYS somehow ran over it's time spot😂😂.
Brilliant perspective. It's funny how myopic each generation can be about their own generation. Wrestling, Music, Movies, Video Games, etc. Everyone says their time was better.
I think once people accepted that wrestling was just "sports entertainment", people embraced it. Today people watch wrestling not because they want to see a legit NCAA or Olympic style wrestling match, but because they want to see a show with story lines. They want to see the wrestlers pull off incredible moves and see the opponent take the move safely and live to fight another day. It's all about the wow factor, it's all about getting the most bang for your buck while at the same time still being able to support what you see because you know at the end of the day it's still scripted and no one is out to legitimately hurt anyone. It's about embracing fantasy while also acknowledging that the performers in the ring are highly skilled at what they do. Now wrestlers do get hurt because of the athletic and physical nature of wrestling and when it happens you can see the concern on the fans' faces, no one ever roots for a wrestler to get hurt or wants to see it happen. In the end every one knows it was an accident, it wasn't caused by the opponent wanting to deliberately injure the opponent.
If people want to see legit wrestling they can watch that and if they want a legit fight MMA is available. I find it amusing when people talk about modern wrestling looking "phoney" when it _all_ looks phoney if you watch enough MMA. The "strong style" matches from the 80s and 90s in Japan are especially hilarious in that regard. They were supposed to look "real" (and were occasionally were presented as such) but they're obviously incredibly fake. In an actual combat sport you don't just stand there and let someone kick you without trying to block it or get out of the way.
Funny thing, Mangler Mahoney said that about Lou Theiz, and Nippletwist O'Houlihan said the same about Mangler Mahoney. And don't even get me started on what Wet Biscuit McGee thought about Nippletwist O'Houlihan...
Just had a look on Cagematch. Apparently in 1967 Harley Race and Lou Thesz faced each other in a series of tag team matches in the AWA. Three ended in DQs. Not directly relevant but could be?
I cannot imagine what the old timers who were 50+ said about where the business was headed in the early to mid 80s. They had to be trashing the hell out of it. I know guys in the late 90s were critical as hell many trashing the hell out of ECW, the Attitude Era and especially something like Mankind going off the top of the cell and through the top. They've always been critical as hell but that doesn't necessarily mean what's going on is good or bad
People would probably find wrestling matches during Lou Thesz's time boring because we are so used to the added spectacle and spot fest's we usually get.
Evolution isn't about being better. It's about the industry and community gaining a better understanding of the art and adjusting to meet a given goal. Many older fans forget that expectations change as rules are made and different media are introduced.
No one likes there work deemed less and not measuring up. I tend to appreciate it across the board, the same goes for the cinema and games. Some can say this person was not an ambassador for what we do. None can do a cross generation match to prove it.
The interesting thing is, I don't know if wrestling can go any further in this direction. It's kind of hot a wall, unless it becomes pure, slapstick, opera type, in your face melodrama. Failing that, is the only option for change to actual go backwards to the more realistic style?
I get this perspective, but Harley Race was still trying to simulate combat. That was the end goal, whether Lou Thesz thought it was decent or not. Most wrestlers nowadays aren't aiming to simulate combat, just do a flashy routine that will make the crowd chant about how awesome the flips are.
Exactly, there comes a point when it just jumps the shark so hard it's turning into parody. For example, whenever friend and foe huddle up to catch a random moron jumping onto all of them, not at all contrived, right? And that's just a basic, common example.
Point went over your head. “Nowadays” people love wrestling more than ever. Women’s division is wrestling harder than ever. If you don’t like it that’s fine, but despite it being different it is very much the same. Wrestling has been goofy since… idk the 80s? Probably earlier
Thank you! I’m so glad you fleshed out that perspective between simulating actual combat which is what Harley was doing regardless of what Thesz thought vs modern day pro wrestling where they go out of their way to make one see that what they are doing is fake. D’Amore is correct on a macro perspective, but when you go into the detailed aspects of what has always worked in the artform/sport you clearly see whats missing from much of the modern product especially the novice level 🐂 💩 on the indies.
What part of "Wrestling changes" is being lost on you? NO MATTER WHAT wrestler is today versus what was back then, AS LONG AS THE FANS LIKE IT, then the wrestling is good. PERIOD. If a Lou Thez match would bomb today, that's not a problem with the audience, that's a problem with the wrestler. For context, I'm 42, and I am NOT someone who goes around say "When I was young, wrestling was good, now it sucks."
@@TakarieZan Wrestling was way more popular 25 years ago. That's just a fact. Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold are still bigger names than anyone working today. You say the name "Roman Reigns" to a non wrestling fan and they have no idea who you are talking about. You say "The Rock" to anyone and they know who you are talking about.
Weird whataboutism argument, tbh. "Sure, they did 20 superkicks and than a top rope 450° splash and than lit the dude on fire and than threw him off the titantron and only a two count. However, what about when Lou Thesz thought Harley Race was cartoony in the way he sold moves? Checkmate, pal."
@@DoffysGlasses But I bet you were okay with Kane setting people on fire and Undertaker shooting lighting from his fingers and Mick Foley taking 30 chair shots to the head.
Same, I like cornette. Man Is funny and smart to the business, but being a fan of his you also gotta disagree with somethings such as the wyatt sicks he hates it, I love it
@@hunterdelanoSame. I mean, I also don't like people like Ricochet and others who do all the flips. It's not entertaining to me. But if it is to some, who am I to judge their taste? Cornette has also said that stuff about Asuka and she's my favorite ever, so it's all just opinion and it'd be great if people could treat it that way.
Idk if it’s just me but his biases have been showing a lot lately Once he hates you it’s hard to get on his good side and once he likes you it’s like you can no longer do wrong
Remember a wrestlers from waaaay back said he hates the irish whip. To him it was too unrealistic when a guy was thrown into the ropes and runs back to get hiptossed. He wasn't wrong with that, but me gowing up in the 90's WWF era, where Bret Hart and Yokozuna were the main stars, I never thought of this. Was so normal at that time to see irish whips and other stuff, who older wrestlers think it's goofy.
Yeah..... no...... I can see both Lou and Harley in a bar fight knocking people out. I can't see Orange being anything but a victim. Which is sad because when he does wrestle he has an early 90's style that is reminiscent of Pillman Sr. I'm 5'10" and 264lbs I'm bigger than a lot of AEW wrestlers.
Strangler Lewis did. And it's a valid point. Because now with AEW they have crossed the line where they are hurting the business with their BS. The business would be in a better place had they not gone much past Race's days in terms of stretching believability.
No matter how much things change, they stay the same.
Brilliant, indeed, Mr. D'Amore.
I read that as "Dr. D'amore" and just didn't question his credentials as a doctorate of wrestling science
That's not what he said - AT ALL. He said - things change. Period. Can't believe 1.2K agreed with you. Guess they weren't listening, either.
@@immortalnightbodyI thought the same thing!!!
@@immortalnightbodyno matter how much things change=wrestling and wrestlers evolve
Some things stay the same=the past generation insults it and says it's a disgrace to professional wrestling.
I listened to the whole and understood what the OP was saying. Maybe it's you who took it wrong, not the 1.4k that liked it.
@@immortalnightbody I think he got thst but the poster is saying that opinions and attitudes dont change from old timers
That is just a perfect example. I’m so glad that Scott compare those two quotes/perspectives because it’s kind of what wrestling is now but at the same time it’s a perfect logic of explanation and I’m glad that Scott understands how it works
I find it funny that most people will almost always say that the “golden age of wrestling” is whatever lines up with when they were kids/introduced to wrestling.
Oh for sure. Grew up during the Monday night wars. That's my favorite time, but I don't 💩 on the ruthless aggression era. Just the PG era. 😆
Nah, most people say it was the attitude era.
That's the golden age of most things really
It's like how everyone says "music was so much better before" without realizing that when they were young, that's the exact same thing their parents said about music then. 😂
@@thebasketballhistorian3291 When I was young I said music was better when my parents were young.
Strangler Lewis said the same thing about it in the 20s.
So did your mother, Debra "the stinky anus monster" Mansion💯
Strangler Lewis trained Thesz.
"Strangler Lewis is just some cosplaying indie goof, no one will believe that" Frank Gotch (probably) 😅
tbh lou thesz's work looks more serious than the clips of what we see of lewis. granted, lewis was past his prime by then, but it looks more like a contest by thesz, to my eye anyway. not more like competitive wrestling, but it looks competitive in its own right. look at lou vs verne gagne
@@grawakendream8980 I think Lewis was legally blind at the time.
This analogy can be applied to many concepts. Not just wrestling. Style, slang, art, etc.
People are naturally afraid of change. It takes time for people to adapt and unfortunately some people will never adapt and society moves on
@@FFmaxxxas a Gen x, I see somethings in society as terrible (mostly in music), but I also feel a lot of things overall as better. And I always say in regards to music, we all need to remember that our particular generations of music was noise to the ones before ours. Pretty sure some kid in the 30's listening to Glen Miller heard his parents yelling "turn that crap down!"😂😂
@@conradsutton1456 well said!
Harley was brilliant, I'm a younger wrestling fan so I obviously didn't see him in his prime but watching the people he influenced as well as watching his matches just shows how brilliant he was. It is interesting to see how many people from the generation before Harley had doubts in his style of wrestling. Great interview as always Chris
He did flop around like a fish when he was selling and reacted to punches in a way no human ever would, so it's not exactly wrong.
I am sure he hated his influence, considering the two guys copying his finisher move were Dynamite Kid and Chris Benoit... he oulived both, whatever mush their brains were after so many diving headbutts missing.
Something I never knew about Harley until after his passing is the NWA didn’t want him anywhere near the heavyweight title because he had tattoos speaking about the evolution of wrestling
Was Ice Cube a wrestling fan?
Could you elaborate? I know Race had tats, but I didn't know they told a story.
@@LOSKOSKI When Dory pretty much refused to drop the title to Jack they had to find an interim champion and when Race was brought up the board rejected it at first because of the outlandish bumps he took and what some people on the board thought was just not acceptable for a champion were the tattoos he had. If you love the history of wrestling I strongly suggest get the Death of the Territories audiobook or the physical book because it’s awesome
@@LOSKOSKIhis tattoos didn't tell the story of the evolution of wrestling. OP phrased that poorly.
If he thought Race was cartoony, imagine what he'd think of the Undertaker
Paul Bearer did a shoot interview about working a match with Lou Thesz. Paul screwed up a spot and Lou Thesz cussed him out and Bearer thought his career in wrestling was over when he just started it.
@@orangesilver4568that sounds a bit like undertakers first match which was against bruiser Brody
Bro have you seen what wrestling used to look like When Lou Thesz was wrestling? it was all chain wrestling and selling it like it was a real fight, In Lou Thesz perspective it was goofy because it was compared to that, Now Goofy can be entretaining. But before when Thesz was wrestling it was supposed to be "real" and so it was when Race was so that is why it was weird. Now personally i think Thesz era wrestling its booring but he kinda had a point.
"I hate AEW! Orange Cassidy is too small, he's unbelievable and he ruins my immersion! Anyways, my favorite wrestler is the Undead Necromancer from Hell." 😅
@@doodtheman2508 its not his size, its his terrible gimmick that has run it' course. In ring he is okay, and at least sells more then a lot of guys. But the whole gimmick is past it's due date in my opinon. But do love the comment about necromancer from hell funny
Amen, Scott. Perspective is everything. Yes, brilliant.
This mans an encyclopedia. He should be in the HOF, hes done souch for wrestling.
Off TNA??
How is he an encyclopedia?
@@TheNinthHeart what
A single piece of information does not make someone an encyclopedia. Lol!
@@Fencellisk definitely when it's not a very historic whatsoever piece is it?
I can see what Lou was talking about. If you look back at wrestling in the 70s and 80s you can see how wrestling was way different than what wrestling was/is in the 90s-present. The way they sell, the moves that they pull off, the pace of the matches, etc.
Not really. Rasslin didn’t alter much during those years. It was Dynamite & the rest of the JP strong style guys & MEX high fliers that switched up the game, but their influence wasn’t felt in murica until the 00s
Yeah, famous 90s wrestler, Harley Race...
Lou Thesz began his career all the way back in the 30's.
Yur comment is ridiculous.
@@TheHardys01 Lou Thesz passed away in 2002. So he was able to make that comment in the 70s or 80s before he passed away.
Gonna have to check this interview out. Scott seems like he has some serious gems 💎
Chris you have been on a roll With these interview much respect to you
Fun fact: Karl Gotch thought Harley Race was killing wrestling.
Yep, calling him a "yamakazi" or something like that.
Nowadays, that is an absurd thing to even think.
Amazing how that works isn’t it?
@@MiketheNerdRanger yeah, really absurd to think the guys doing diving headbuts might end bad, look at Dynamite Kid and Chris Benoit, two guys famously known for copying Harley Race.
@@KasumiRINA which Harley warned everyone not to do the move after some damage it did to him.
All wrestling fans need to hear this.
And pod casters. And you tubers.
And Cornette.
why?
Harley Race drew money. Orange Cassidy will never. 🤷♂️
So...maybe it won't do any good for every wrestling fan to hear this...
That really is a great perspective. You can apply it to any skill/trade . I like it.
There's a film called Night and the City from 1950 which features Stanislaus Zbyszko. His character basically complains about the state of the current wrestlers and how showy it all is. A few years back when I first saw it it kind of made me realise that point that's being made here.
If you go to Zbyszko's Wikipedia page you can read about a double cross where Zybsko double crossed and shot on Wayne Munn. He was able to do so because Zybsko had legitimate catch wrestling experience but Munn was a former football player promoters were trying to turn into a new world champion. Zybsko's actions are probably the reason why promoters kept the belt on Lou Thesz for so long. He was a legit catch wrestler who could handle himself if someone tried to shoot on him and make the world champion look bad.
D’Amore seems like an absolutely intelligent man when it comes to the business. Whatever I’ve read of him, heard from him, seen him do, he just seems like a brilliant mind for pro wrestling. Such a shame TNA shit on him.
Reminds me of that saying..."war never changes"
it does, it hella does. It went from 2 armies battling it out on a field to just throwing bombs onto civilians.
There will always be old men yelling at clouds.
@BilalYousef-qy7dzhe was just as Ridiculous as Harley.
Basically He's a Hypocrite. So is every old wrestlers. When people grow old. They shout at the clouds. While hardcore fans take it as like a Holy Script.
@@NAGAVERSE Explain why they're wrong.
@BilalYousef-qy7dz So you think Harley Race was bad?
@BilalYousef-qy7dzthat is the fakest, most hipster take I've actually seen. No teen is watching Lou Thesz matches, don't fucking lie
And there will always be stubborn kids that eat glue.
I wish every wrestling fan online would have to watch this clip. So sick of hearing how much better is was back whenever. It will always evolve. I loved wrestling when I was a kid, but also love wrestling now.
mOdErN rAsSliN is flipp sh1t *watches Ric Flair flip over turnbuckle* and they're not realistic *Nature Boy walks 5 meters before flopping after a punch*
Believe me, most who say that forget the crap a weekly show could be.
That is an awesome take. My initial thoughts was that it’d be someone like Harley race talking about Bret hart. So imagine my surprise when it’s about Harley.
I think it's funny how this can be an example for anything in life. So many times we hear stuff like this in other facets of life and it's the same. The cyclical nature of it all.
Wow. What a perspective I never heard before. Times always change and the older generation will always think their generation was best. But 30 years from wrestling will be so different and we will say our generation was best. The cycle goes on and on
Scott has one of the most creative minds. He’s a legit wrestling genius. The guy knows psychology, he understands philosophy, and he can teach better than most of the people doing it presently. He’s an asset to any team that has him. No shit.
I always enjoyed mr Chris. But lately ive discovered i love mr CVV. Youre doing good budday. Thank you for your hard work.
Here after hearing Stevie Richards drone on for 45 minutes about how Ricochet has no concept of wrestling psychology and is too choreographed and reminds him of Jackie Chan movies. The amount of dusty ass wrestling fans who grew up watching Andre the Giant and Hulk body wrestle 5 dwarves, or idolized both DDP and Macho Man who were notorious for strictly planning and choreographing their matches now dump on new wrestlers for being all spots and no psychology.
It's okay to see someone wrestle and decide it's not for you, but so many of the guys that get so much shit online are beloved by fans in person, and it feels like these guys are calling the audience idiots for not getting that what they're watching isn't 'real' wrestling because it isn't what they like or are accustomed to seeing.
Been watching since the 70's and while things have changed from more "sport" to entertainment, I also believe it got better. Perfect example is the most recent "Last monster standing match." Back in the 70's, 80's, and even the early 2000's with RARE exceptions, that would have been two brutes punching and slamming each other.
I mean it's totally true. Dusty Rhodes wrestling in the 70s looks cartoonish compared to most wrestlers today but I'm sure most Dusty fans would say the opposite
This is why I consider Scotty up there with Heyman in terms of the real academic voices in the wrestling game. He doesn’t pander to the rubes by sh!tting all over whatever parts of the “current product” move the most clicks, but instead looks at wrestling in terms of being a wonderful and ridiculous culture that’s always working against itself in terms of trends.
Bischoff, Corny and Russo could take a page or two out of his book (and hell, might actually still be working IN the business if they did, rather than podcasting to sell t-shirts).
It's so strange. I was into wrestling between 1993 and 1995- after Hogan left but before the Attitude Era. It was such a bizzare time with the MOST cartoony characters.
In my opinion guys like Vince McMahon, Eric Bischoff, and Vince Russo did pretty much irreversible damage to pro wrestling when they basically decided that the way to present pro wrestling was to basically turn pro wrestling into a parody of itself
honestly thought it was a harley race to Undertaker type of shtick. It being Lou Thesz to Harley Race is WILD. what an anecdote!
Lou Thesz is the greatest professional wrestler that ever lived.
This is like the smartest thing I’ve seen in years
The kimura roll they showed at the end was legit and very dangerous
Thesz was a 100% legit and excellent catch wrestler. Part of the reason he held the belt so long is because it would he impossible for an opponent to shoot on him and humiliate the world champion. He could handle problems himself, especially as catch wrestling wasn't something that many people learned at that time. To get wrestling on the Olympic games in 1912 the rules were changed to get rid of all the submission holds, thus creating freestyle wrestling.
Emimem had a good one in Without Me comparing to what he did back then to what Elvis did even before him. Both being controverse artists for their respective times and now both are hailed as great artists.
Some of us are old enough to remember when. Jim Cornett was managing the teams that are too small to be believable in Mid-South wrestling. Now the cycle has gone a full 180 and Cornett. Is the guy complaining about other wrestlers being too small
CVV's eyebrows loved that perspective
Amen, brother! Now, can someone forward this video to every wrestling Podcaster in the world, please.
I was gonna guess a super old guy (maybe Buddy Rogers or smth) and the 'new gen' wrestler to be Hulk Hogan. I knew the quote had to be timeless, but I didn't expect Scott to go that far into history 😅
Wow, that really puts things in to perspective
I KNEW it was gonna be a guy talking about Harley Race! Because there's no one else who could be on the receiving end of that quote that would illustrate D'amore's point better
Way cool 😎! I'm 70yo now. I've been watching wrestling since about 1st grade. Me and Great Grandma loved wrestling! I have watched the Greats. I have seen a lot of changes. But, to me, it's still, The Greatest Show on Earth! Lol 😂. The Atomik sends. Peace ✌. ❤
I started watching WWF in the mid 80's. I never watched Territories, so when King Harley Race was in WWF he was a shiveled old man who always lost... We called him King Can't Hardly Win Race... It took until I was in my 30's to know he was a badass and the Man in the 70's.
and that’s the thing no matter what people say about you you will always will be a champion in the peoples eyes, and you will always will be a legend in the peoples heart, and you will always will be a Hall of Famer with the whole world remembering your name even if they don’t appreciate you or anybody else you will shut them up and prove them wrong
And let's settle this "better back in.." argument now. As someone who actually watched AWA when I was a kid, not on home video, or TH-cam, I can guarantee most people say that line only remember highlight matches. They conveniently forget how many times we had to sit through matches like Greg Gange vs. "Joey local talent", 2 dozen promos of guys just saying how tough they were, and the promotion advertising 20 times about SuperCard, just to get to see a match like Verne, "I'm the booker so I held the title forever," Gange vs. Larry Zybysco cut off half way through because it ALWAYS somehow ran over it's time spot😂😂.
I love that perspective.
Lou Thesz was a Wrestling Phenom!!!
That ear fob is breathtaking
Brilliant perspective. It's funny how myopic each generation can be about their own generation. Wrestling, Music, Movies, Video Games, etc. Everyone says their time was better.
Those buttons are doing the lord's work
That is actually mind blowing ...
I think once people accepted that wrestling was just "sports entertainment", people embraced it. Today people watch wrestling not because they want to see a legit NCAA or Olympic style wrestling match, but because they want to see a show with story lines. They want to see the wrestlers pull off incredible moves and see the opponent take the move safely and live to fight another day. It's all about the wow factor, it's all about getting the most bang for your buck while at the same time still being able to support what you see because you know at the end of the day it's still scripted and no one is out to legitimately hurt anyone. It's about embracing fantasy while also acknowledging that the performers in the ring are highly skilled at what they do. Now wrestlers do get hurt because of the athletic and physical nature of wrestling and when it happens you can see the concern on the fans' faces, no one ever roots for a wrestler to get hurt or wants to see it happen. In the end every one knows it was an accident, it wasn't caused by the opponent wanting to deliberately injure the opponent.
If people want to see legit wrestling they can watch that and if they want a legit fight MMA is available. I find it amusing when people talk about modern wrestling looking "phoney" when it _all_ looks phoney if you watch enough MMA. The "strong style" matches from the 80s and 90s in Japan are especially hilarious in that regard. They were supposed to look "real" (and were occasionally were presented as such) but they're obviously incredibly fake. In an actual combat sport you don't just stand there and let someone kick you without trying to block it or get out of the way.
mind you a lot less people embrace it now than they used to
Funny thing, Mangler Mahoney said that about Lou Theiz, and Nippletwist O'Houlihan said the same about Mangler Mahoney. And don't even get me started on what Wet Biscuit McGee thought about Nippletwist O'Houlihan...
Where can I find that quote from Lou?
I love this clip!
I thought it was Corney talking about Kenny Omega. Really opened my eyes because Harley Race was one of the best.
Not Lou Thesz locking in a Kimura Lock 😂
Harley race was a hell of a champion .. great seller as well
Excellent point.
Huh interesting. Did Lou Thesz and Harley Race ever wrestle each other or did Lou retire before Harley started his career?
Man, that George Santos guy is everywhere...
Harley Race always looked like a drunk guy in a bar fight in a western movie.... definitely with Thesz on this one
Just had a look on Cagematch. Apparently in 1967 Harley Race and Lou Thesz faced each other in a series of tag team matches in the AWA. Three ended in DQs. Not directly relevant but could be?
And two of the absolute best ever
this goes for boxing, music, basketball, really every art or sport with any sort of agency.
Im sure Farmer Burns thought Lou Thesz was all flips and flops and high spots. 😊
Wait is the Lou Thesz press named after him
Yes, it was his finisher (but done quite differently than the way Austin did it).
The opening punch
This reminded me of The Rock fish flop after getting the Stone Cold Stunner. 😂😂😂
I really like Harley, but I immediately thought of him as soon as he asked the question.
I cannot imagine what the old timers who were 50+ said about where the business was headed in the early to mid 80s. They had to be trashing the hell out of it. I know guys in the late 90s were critical as hell many trashing the hell out of ECW, the Attitude Era and especially something like Mankind going off the top of the cell and through the top. They've always been critical as hell but that doesn't necessarily mean what's going on is good or bad
Are we making the argument that Orange Cassidy is believable?
Tony needs to hire this guy...Would probably right that ship doing donuts out in the Pacific...
This doesn’t just apply to wrestling. This mentality applies to society as a whole. All the time older generations talk trash about new generations
People would probably find wrestling matches during Lou Thesz's time boring because we are so used to the added spectacle and spot fest's we usually get.
Evolution isn't about being better. It's about the industry and community gaining a better understanding of the art and adjusting to meet a given goal. Many older fans forget that expectations change as rules are made and different media are introduced.
What a good way to put it
No one likes there work deemed less and not measuring up. I tend to appreciate it across the board, the same goes for the cinema and games. Some can say this person was not an ambassador for what we do. None can do a cross generation match to prove it.
That "Sure" is the same answer I give when anyone mentions any of the new guys.
A lot of the old guard said the same thing about Flair.
What I find ironic, is they aren't even photos from Harley Race "era", most of them are near harley end, in the 80's (more than likely in WWF)
"Nothing, like, means anything maaaaaaannnn"
The interesting thing is, I don't know if wrestling can go any further in this direction. It's kind of hot a wall, unless it becomes pure, slapstick, opera type, in your face melodrama. Failing that, is the only option for change to actual go backwards to the more realistic style?
I love this quote
I get this perspective, but Harley Race was still trying to simulate combat. That was the end goal, whether Lou Thesz thought it was decent or not. Most wrestlers nowadays aren't aiming to simulate combat, just do a flashy routine that will make the crowd chant about how awesome the flips are.
Exactly, there comes a point when it just jumps the shark so hard it's turning into parody. For example, whenever friend and foe huddle up to catch a random moron jumping onto all of them, not at all contrived, right? And that's just a basic, common example.
Point went over your head. “Nowadays” people love wrestling more than ever. Women’s division is wrestling harder than ever. If you don’t like it that’s fine, but despite it being different it is very much the same. Wrestling has been goofy since… idk the 80s? Probably earlier
Thank you! I’m so glad you fleshed out that perspective between simulating actual combat which is what Harley was doing regardless of what Thesz thought vs modern day pro wrestling where they go out of their way to make one see that what they are doing is fake. D’Amore is correct on a macro perspective, but when you go into the detailed aspects of what has always worked in the artform/sport you clearly see whats missing from much of the modern product especially the novice level 🐂 💩 on the indies.
What part of "Wrestling changes" is being lost on you? NO MATTER WHAT wrestler is today versus what was back then, AS LONG AS THE FANS LIKE IT, then the wrestling is good. PERIOD. If a Lou Thez match would bomb today, that's not a problem with the audience, that's a problem with the wrestler. For context, I'm 42, and I am NOT someone who goes around say "When I was young, wrestling was good, now it sucks."
@@TakarieZan Wrestling was way more popular 25 years ago. That's just a fact. Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold are still bigger names than anyone working today. You say the name "Roman Reigns" to a non wrestling fan and they have no idea who you are talking about. You say "The Rock" to anyone and they know who you are talking about.
So true. Even Millenials are saying, "In my day, wrestlers took actual chair shots."
Exhibit A: Forearm exchanges that don't connect, and last for an eternity
That legit blew my mind and is gonna be handy for when i inevitably get into the _"Flippy Wrestling"_ and _"Too many finishers"_ arguments.
Weird whataboutism argument, tbh. "Sure, they did 20 superkicks and than a top rope 450° splash and than lit the dude on fire and than threw him off the titantron and only a two count. However, what about when Lou Thesz thought Harley Race was cartoony in the way he sold moves? Checkmate, pal."
@@DoffysGlasses Nothing you said is rational.
@@DoffysGlassesman, it’s almost like you’re the exact guy he was talking about
But for real tho...too many finishers 😅
@@DoffysGlasses But I bet you were okay with Kane setting people on fire and Undertaker shooting lighting from his fingers and Mick Foley taking 30 chair shots to the head.
The Golden Age of Anything to most people is when they were young and into it the most.
Good to see Kim jong doing well. Heard his health was in decline
Thesz would have a heart attack if he ever lived to see a Dolph Ziggler match
You know what’s funny even in the mid 2000s to early 2010s era even I knew that stuff was comical and unbelievable
"Lou Thesz Saying Harley Race is Cartoony"
Meanwhile the footage is Lou Thesz vs Buddy Rogers..and Rogers back then was overselling
Lou was 100% right about Harley though. I've never enjoyed a Harley match. I think the boys loved him more than the fans.
I hate to say it but I agree with Scott on this one. I like you cornette but you can be wrong
Same, I like cornette. Man Is funny and smart to the business, but being a fan of his you also gotta disagree with somethings such as the wyatt sicks he hates it, I love it
Cornette himself has brought up the times old wrestlers would complain to him about the way the Midnight Express worked.
@@hunterdelanoSame. I mean, I also don't like people like Ricochet and others who do all the flips. It's not entertaining to me. But if it is to some, who am I to judge their taste? Cornette has also said that stuff about Asuka and she's my favorite ever, so it's all just opinion and it'd be great if people could treat it that way.
Idk if it’s just me but his biases have been showing a lot lately
Once he hates you it’s hard to get on his good side and once he likes you it’s like you can no longer do wrong
@@StrongStyleShooterhe used to like The Rock but now he Hates him..
Remember a wrestlers from waaaay back said he hates the irish whip. To him it was too unrealistic when a guy was thrown into the ropes and runs back to get hiptossed. He wasn't wrong with that, but me gowing up in the 90's WWF era, where Bret Hart and Yokozuna were the main stars, I never thought of this. Was so normal at that time to see irish whips and other stuff, who older wrestlers think it's goofy.
Yeah..... no......
I can see both Lou and Harley in a bar fight knocking people out. I can't see Orange being anything but a victim. Which is sad because when he does wrestle he has an early 90's style that is reminiscent of Pillman Sr. I'm 5'10" and 264lbs I'm bigger than a lot of AEW wrestlers.
You can apply this to all sports
Harley was ahead of his time.
Maybe there is some wrestler from a previous generation who said a similar thing about Lou Thez.
Strangler Lewis did. And it's a valid point.
Because now with AEW they have crossed the line where they are hurting the business with their BS. The business would be in a better place had they not gone much past Race's days in terms of stretching believability.
The previous generation was Ed "Strangler" Lewis and he trained Thez.
That's so cool I never knew that