Repertoire: The TRUTH About The BEST Elgar Enigma Variations
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 พ.ค. 2021
- Few works come loaded with as much cultural baggage as Elgar's magnificent Enigma Variations. The literature surrounding the work's discography is hopelessly skewed by the provincialism and insufferable proprietary smugness of the English musical press. In this video, I hope to offer some straight talk based on close, comparative listening, with no unmusical, nationalist agenda. See how the results shake out.
- เพลง
There was a ballet based on this piece with choreography by Frederick Ashton, if I am correct.
I think that's the greatest compliment that can be paid to an English composer, when a "foreign" conductor can do a great performance of English music. I have the Monteux and the Joachum, and they're terrific.
I don't get the expression "Elgar was not necessary". Does a composer need to be? And who decides? Was Dvorak necessary? Or Ravel? But actually, I think Elgar was indeed necessary, cause he put Britain back on the map in music history. He also influenced younger composers and the whole world knows his music, so perhaps yes, Elgar did matter. What you said about British conductors and British orchestra's & Enigma is totally true. Most British orchestral works have received better performances & recordings with non-British conductors and sometimes even their orchestra's. That's a fact!
I think I was pretty clear: necessary in the sense of musical history. It's not major point, just an observation that exaggerated reputations aren't necessarily justified.
When you got down to the final two recordings, I said to myself "he has to choose the Monteux and the Jochum, both with the LSO " - and you did just that. I have both of them - along with a considerable number of others - and they both stand out from the crowd like beacons.
As David is a percussionist, I'm surprised he didn't mention the use of pennies to play the timpani towards the end of the Variations - an effect that is lost in most recordings.
I have various recordings of the piece, mostly English, but the one I listen to most is Barenboim (of whom I am not normally a fan). My attention usually drifts after "Nimrod", but his characterisation of the episodes keeps my attention.
Oh my, I neglected to mention one irrelevant detail? How shocking! In fact, while the pennies are traditional if desired to those with access to old English currency (those coins no longer exist), Elgar actually asks that the part be played as a roll with snare drum sticks.
I adore the Monteux and its coupling, "The Planets". The Elgar has a very wide dynamic range; climaxes are a bit overloaded but it hardly matters. I find Von Karajan's "Planets" fascinating...it's like listening to conductor and orchestra having a blast. The organ pedals in "Neptune" shake the room.
Why here the rants about English Critics? Penguin Guide 2009 mentions Jochums performance of the Enigma variations first and Monteux third.
The Penguin Guide is not the same as "English Critics."
I am a recently converted "Elgarian". I just love his music, or what I have heard so far. Thank you for this great talk. Can't wait to listen to some of your recommendations. Speaking of Elgar, if you haven't done it already, could you do a talk on his work, "The Dream of Gerontius"? (Which is a new favorite of mine) :-)
David, your top 3 are inspired for a very specific reason. I feel this work is more open to interpretation than most major symphonic works, and your top picks are varied. Listeners should see what I mean just by sampling the 3 Nimrods. Jochum's is my new obsession, thanks!
I keep coming back to the Solti CSO performance. Yes, it's spiced with a lot of what the American Record Guide once termed Solti's "house sauce"--driven with heavy emphasis on the brass, but for me, it makes the piece sound really thrilling.
very unEnglish.
I think that “house sauce” was largely Bud Herseth flavored 😂
Thank you for this comparison. I've got to say that I haven't been disappointed by any of your recommendations so far. What about Sinopoli with the Philharmonia Orchestra (DG)?
Bought the Jochum on second hand vinyl years ago as i had never really liked the variations but loved Jochum as a conductor. No performance for me has ever matched it.The brits seem underdone and embarrassed.Jochum sees the music as an international piece of quality.
David - In the Ormandy CBS Sony recording of the Elgar, you are describing my teacher, Fred D. Hinger (1920-2001) who was the timpanist on that and almost all of the Philadelphia/Ormandy Sony CBS recordings from late 1951 until mid 1967, when he moved on to the Metropolitan Opera. You caught the essence of his musical style instantly!
I had the great privilege of studying with Gil Johnson. There is something truly special about those Magnificent Philadelphians 👍
Oh...Hi Andy! David Davenport here! My first timpani assignment at the Cleveland Institute was Enigma Variations.....boy was I unprepared for that one!!!!
@@daviddavenport9350 I know that feeling!
Enjoyed this talk very much. But imagine my surprise and delight when you held up two of the three recordings I own right at the end. As an Englishman I was beginning to feel a bit chastened and second rate after some of the comments but at least one of our bands got into the top two! Can't be bad. I hope people appreciate all the time and effort that goes into this stuff. It seems pretty much unique as far as I can see. You mention Stokowski, who was an American citizen I think? But don't forget, in spite of his accent he was born in the good old cockney, Dick van Dyke, East End of London. So London critics might have seen him as a 'home boy'. Anyway, thanks again David.
"great but not necessary"... Wonderful, I'll order that one on my tombstone. For many years I was satisfied with Mackerras. And I never felt much urge to acquire many recordings of this work. So I don't know either of your top recommendations yet, but that may perhaps change...
I remember getting the Dutoit / Montreal Orchestra recording years ago, after being so impressed with their Planets. It was ok, but lacking depth, I felt. Last year during my lockdown classical library audit, I went looking for a new one, and got the Martin Brabbins BBC Scottish Symphony recording on Hyperion. It's very, very good. I've gone on a hunt for the Jochum and Monteux versions - but are impossible to get in Australia. I have one of Aussie Charlie's recordings in a Decca box, but I might be able to get the Slatkin and Bernstein, though. I love variations of all sorts, so it would be good to get some comparisons.
So pleased that Norman Del Mar was included in your recommendations. His recording of the Enigma Variations was one of the first records I ever purchased way back in 1976 on Woolworth’s Contour label for 5 shillings. Could not believe how good it was at the time and not surprised that it was re released on a major label. Still sounds as fresh nearly 50 years later. Really enjoying your channel Dave. Thank you!
Lived with the Monteux version and liked it very much, though I believed from another critic made it was not the best -he mentioned the limited sonics, possibly in the louder passages. So thought French crtics recommended Monteux because he was from France too. Thought you would give us lights about the meaning of Nimrod (though it may be evident, but your esteemed colleague Christophe Huss mentioned something, I did not catch, not very explicitly I thought). Will look for Ormandy and others too, though I can only download. Thank you.
I thought the enigma was a theme from some Haydn work (symphony?) that shared the program with the work's first performance?
No. It is completely original.
@@andrewclarke6899 I have heard Elgarian scholars say the "un-played theme" is Love which connects all the variations... when you think about it.
Hey, Dave. How about talking about the symphonies of Elgar? The recording I have of them is by a foreign conductor, too!
And BTW, Elgar loved dogs, and was a fan of my favorite English soccer team. So those are two pluses for me. :)
I already did the second.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Sorry about that. I must have missed it then. In that case, maybe the First?
I heard the Slatkin version of the Nimrod. Almost as slow as Bernstein and sounds it. Still nice.
The only recording I own of this piece features Andre Previn and the Royal Philharmonic. Any thoughts about that version?
Listen to some others and you tell us.
Apropos of closing our eyes and listening, remember the days of the radio program "First Hearing"? The host Lloyd Moss would play recordings for a panel of reviewers (including the recently-deceased Martin Bookspan) without telling them the orchestra or conductor. Knowing both in advance kicks in our prejudices and pre-conceptions that really affect what we hear. One of my favorite Ma Vlasts (and a very idiomatically Czech one, by the way) is by a Japanese orchestra and conductor. Not exactly in their wheelhouse you might say.
I was a panelist on First Hearing. The host was George Jellinek during the several years I was on it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide That was a long time ago for me; I guess I forgot you were on it. I loved that program!
When I was about 13 years old my school class (Leeds Grammar School) attended a concert at the Leeds Town Hall, that would be around 1959. which was put on for school children in the town. One of the pieces played, and the only one I remember, was the "Enigma Variations". I have to say that I was just too young to understand or appreciate the music - it wasn't that it "left me cold", but it was above my head. The conductor, i can't recall his name or the orchestra, tried to explain something about the music, and I did catch the "enigma" part. In my defence, I had no music or instrumental lesson or learning, and at that time, I had not realised I was actually a decent singer, It was two years later when in France, when I heard the boys of the family I was staying with, played the New World Symphony on their record player, that something suddenly "clicked".and my love of classical music began. But now, of course, the Enigma Variations is one of my favourite pieces of music and the emotional content of this work is almost overpowering. My only recording is that of Georg Solti with the LPO, which I am very happy with. (It comes with Elgar's symphonic study "Falstaff" which I think isn't often featured in concerts) I am not a "record" collector, and my classical music collection has all been digitised on "Music" on the Mac (iTunes) and for the most part I just have the one version of each piece of music,- I am 75 and my hearing is not what it was, an AAC file at 196 or 250 is more than sonically adequate for me.
I could not agree more about your opinion of the Monteux recording with LSO. Stunning with great sound. I used this performance in my last spinning class as we climbed "Mount Enigma" -- with "the enigma" resolved at the top! Made for a great ride!
Barenboim with London philharmonic anyone? Excellent performance in my opinion. Granted it's a filler on the Sony "Great Performances" disc, coupled with with Du Pre's iconic rendition of the Cello Concerto, but it's a solid, rich presentation. Dave, any particular reason this didn't make the grade?
I just listened to it this morning after this video and also to the Mackerras recording on Decca in a 3 disc box with music of Suk, Dvorak, Delius and Janacek. I think the Barenboim is very good, a little more romantic than the Mackerras but I'd have a hard time picking one over the other. I've got the Barenboim on a disc with different couplings, Pomp & Circumstances and Dave's favorite Crown of India Suite.
I don't find those Sony recordings that he made especially distinctive interpretively or alluring sonically.
I love the Barenboim recording (and am not usually a great fan of him). Engagingly characterised in a way few achieve. It's not got the most modern sonics, but much better than the sterile sound that Slatkin suffers from.
I saw the autograph score in the British library of "Nimrod" his marking is a crochet = 60 bpm which is much faster than Lenny B, or indeed most interpretations . Interesting! M
Uncle Dave talking about the EVs, my day has just been made !
Wow! I've been waiting with baited breathe to hear your "best" on this piece and thought, "could he possibly like the only recording of this I've ever had and that I really loved?" And you picked Joachim!!! I was in my early 20s when I bought it and "like a pig in a poke" had really no idea if it was good or bad. But I did have Joachim's Carmina Burana and that won me over to him. Thanx big time for having such great taste, if I don't say so myself...lol
It was Zinman in a live performance with the Cleveland Orchestra that made me realize how drab the Barbirolli was.
I saw Zinman and Cleveland at Blossom during the summer of 2006. It was a joy. I love the Zinman/BSO recording on telarc.
How's the Brahms 1 paired with the Stokowski?
I'm sure someone else has said this, but Boult conducted the piece like he solved the Enigma.
Zinman with Baltimore is phenomenal and it's the best recording Baltimore ever made.
I love the Toscanini. He knew how to make the lines come out in the piece, it reminds me what Dave said about the Karl Bohm box....it has the same quality operatic, singing, quality.
The Brahms? Go and listen to it! Make up your own mind.
Really interesting, Dave, as always. Must try Zinman.
I found a surprisingly good Enigma on TH-cam. Temirkanov (sp?) conducting the St Petersburg SO (I think). I was extremely sceptical when I put it on but honestly I loved it. It is probably on the Mahlerian end of the interpretative scale but what saves it is the unabashed commitment. They sound as though they've been playing it for years (maybe they had). It was one of the more surprising things I've come across in a very long time.
I'm English but I've always considered the NBC much better than the London orchestras of the day, except perhaps the Philharmonia and RPO on which it was on a par. I was brought up on Toscanini's Enigma and I totally agree with what you say. I've recently turned to records again and have Mackerras/LPO. What a wonderful sound, and Falstaff on the reverse side is magnificent.
Fred Hinger was the amazing timpanist with Ormandy and Philly! He also played timpani later at the MET Opera.
Thanks Jeff. I knew you'd know who it was! Folks, the word of a real pro...
I'm happy to see an albeit brief reference to one of my favourite recordings, and with respect from my insignificant self to the late Andrew Davis.
Thank you. I had an argument with an otherwise fine music friend. I felt that Barbirolli ‘s Philharmonia Enigma Variations were dull. His Hallé was even worse. He thought I was nuts. Nice to have some backup!
Fully agree. BGN (cello variation) is sublime but the rest is massively overrated
The world would absolutely be different without Elgar. Without him, our graduates would all be processing to a different tune!
Probably the triumpal march from Aida, which works just as well.
@@DavesClassicalGuide ...or the march from Myerbeer's LA PROPHETE?
(POLTERGEIST ALERT: my Wagner CDs are rumbling and falling off the shelf.)
@@markfarrington5183 Not joking, I saw Le Prophete in Berlin about three or four years ago and was rather blown away. I didn't have much of an expectation, but figured if I didn't go I'd never see it again (probably true). An impressive and thoroughly enjoyable piece (skating ballet and all!). Does make you more angry with Wagner for that campaign of character assassination vis a vis someone who really seems to have wanted to help him...
March of the Peers from Iolanthe, composed by Sir Arthur Sullivan
@@murraylow4523
Well, being the disassociative whack-job that he was, no doubt Wagner probably felt that "this town ain't big enough for the two of us." I think only cult-Wagnerians took what he said seriously about Myerbeer. An even bigger problem is that the singing style required by Myerbeer went into even greater eclipse than Wagnerian singing mostly did after the 1960s. In addition to that, Myerbeer's Grand Operas must be very expensive to stage...Wagner lucked out more in that regard with the far more economical Neue Bayreuth staging of grandsons Wieland & Wolfgang. (I agree with John Culshaw that economics had at least as much to do with Neue Bayreuth as did the postwar need to cleanse Bayreuth from the stench of Hitler.) There doesn't appear to be an equivalent, or some kind of Regi theater, that would work with most of Mayerbeer's Grand Operas.
Meanwhile, LES HUGENOTS also has some beautiful things in it.
What are the greatest classical recordings of all time? Glenn Gould's Bach? Fischer-Dieskau's Schubert Lieder? Klemperer's Fidelio? Kleiber's Beethoven 5? What's your choice?
That's not a question that interests me, really, nor is it one that can be answered.
Glad you like Jochum's Enigma. My personal favourite, with the best Nimrod, in my opinion. And yes, I've listened to many Enigmas, over the years. Always considered Boult's to be rather boring. On a side note, I thought you said in another video that you considered the Silvestri Tallis Fantasia the greatest performance, rather than Ormandy?
Either one will do ya.
And the Silvestri Elgar In the South is one of the greatest recordings of anything!
@@nealkurz6503 look up Mutti's proms performance with Philadelphia. Wow.
@@neilford99 Barbirolli's live performance is excellent too.
Thanks for this engaging review of Elgar's Enigma. Regrettably, American listeners are still rather cool toward Elgar. How often do his major orchestral works figure in our concert programs? My attitude toward Elgar began to change when I came to hear his music less as the apogee of Imperial England and more as England's answer to Mahler or Richard Strauss. Like the former, he was deeply conflicted; like the latter he favored sumptuous and sensuous orchestral textures. For this reason, I have always favored non-English conductors in the Enigma Variations. I'm with you when it comes to Jochum, Monteux, and even Bernstein. I would add Solti to the list: a bold and brilliant Elgarian who blows the cobwebs away from his orchestral music. One old-guard English conductor, whose Elgar I like very much, but who you didn't mention, is Sargent. His Enigma is fresh, exciting and not the least stale (as Boult and Barbirolli indeed are). Great review. Keep them coming!
I am English and an 'Elgarian' and agree with just about everything you say. I got a bit pissed when you quoted the silly words of Jerrold Northrop Moore but I understand that you know he was an American, so I'll leave that there. Of course, Elgar himself was far more international than most of those awful critics. The first performances were by Germans. His greatest supporter and friend was Jaeger, also German. Mahler conducted an early performance in New York. I was brought up on the Toscanini NBC recording. I also agree that most English conductors fall short in terms of excitement, probably through hearing it themselves too often conducted by other uninspiring English conductors. I suggest that Mark Elder and my beloved Halle Orchestra have done far more exciting things with Elgar in recent years. What amazes me, and I am very thankful to you, is that recordings by two of my very favourite conductors, Messrs Jochum and Monteux, were completely unknown to me. I love your surveys, even if I don't always agree with everything of course. Music is about what enters the ears and what the individual does with it inside that brain. No two of us are the same in that regard.
Thanks for this. Just discovered this wonderful piece this weekend. I recently acquired a copy of Monteux/LSO on Decca/London label. Glad to learn I stumbled upon a great rendition.
Damn both unavail on Amazon
Poor Lenny! He simply got off on the wrong foot with the bbc by referring to the composer as eddy elgar.
And mentioning that both he and eddy liked word games. Hurmph!
Eddie Baby!!! 🤣
David, while talking about the Monteaux/London Enigma you are holding up the Karajan/Vienna Planets! I know you like the Karajan , but... 😅
but, the Enigma is the coupling.
@@DavesClassicalGuide ahh, I thought so, but it looked funny...
My go-to Enigma is Mehta with the Los Angeles Phil in sumptuous Decca sound.
I laughed a lot during this vid, thank you, I absolutly agree with your thoughts to nationalism in music. Gonna give a try to the versions you recommended. Until today I have the Barbirolli (on supercut-vinyl), the Bernstein and a quite interesting recording called "Music for Organ and Brass Band" with Arthur Wills on the Ely Cathedral organ/the Cambridge Co-Operative Band and conductor David Read...very interesting and moving.
I love a critic who listens to something again and admits to have changed his mind( regarding your Barbirolli review).Distance of time matters, as does one's own growth. I had the same feeling with 'our' favorite good old Kubelik Mahler 1( specifically the 3rd movement), when I just yesterday listened to it again after a long time. As much as I was still charmed by the klezmer sound of them brass etc, I got exhausted with his ...eleven endings of that one movemet. Like in the Lord of The Rings( movie) last movie, that kept ending and ending and ending. Kubelik 'ends' each small phrase in that movement to death ( a kind of micromanaging, to use your lingo) and the many rit.s gets tiresome very fast.
Toscanini and the Ormandy recording AMAZING!!! Thank you so very much....
Solti, Menuhin, Barenboim, Colin Davis and James Levine made also great recordings of Enigma.
I saw Menuhin conducting the LSO (I think) in London. Before the break F. Schubert's 5th Symphony and Paganini's 1st V.C.. After the break, the E.V.. It was 1982, so I don't remember much. I have only one recording, the Philharmonia, conducted by Giuseppe Sinopoli.
Thanks for the great re- and overview!
What do you do if your head somehow automatically forms an "ideal cycle" of single variations which do not all come from one recording, but overshadow each other in the context of listening to one recording completely (e.g., if you like the final variation by Bernstein better than Jochum's and your Jochum-experience subsequently gets ruined or at least disturbed in variation 14 because Bernstein "lurks around the corner")?
You enjoy your own "ideal" version as you listen. It's a good thing, and a fascinating psychological phenomenon.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Totally agree, listening is creative
Stanford, I think, is emerging as an extremely fine composer of chamber music. It's just a shame that we have to get to the 21st century to start to see this by means of recordings.
No it isn't a shame at all. Every composer has his "time." The emergence of a previously unknown or undervalued name is exciting, and delightful. Nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong in the judgment of posterity (I actually agree that he wrote some terrific chamber music). This is all part of the winnowing process that determines what the "classics" really are. It's a fluid thing, and I personally love being a part of it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Sure, however I think the musical development of the UK would have benefitted from hearing more of Stanford's chamber works in a timely fashion, when they could have helped to influence those around him; whereas many of these manuscripts remained unpublished at the time of his death. I do agree that the 'classics' will probably never consign him any sort of regular place; and that he had his time, and some success in late Victorian Britain, so I shouldn't complain too much. I'm just glad to get to hear his work on CD.
I'll add a story about Bernstein locking horns with the BBC SO from that time that I've heard from more than one source. He habitually turned up very late at all the rehearsals, which was enough to rub the players up the wrong way to begin with. His behaviour at the rehearsals simply added fuel to the fire, and it was never going to end well. At the end of the final rehearsal, a delegation of them came up to him with a parcel wrapped up in coloured paper complete with a pretty bow on top and made a formal presentation. Bernstein opened the package, and saw it contained an alarm clock! His reaction was predictably terse and four-lettered. Moral of the story: say what you like about British orchestra musicians, but you annoy them, and they'll get you but good, no matter who you are!
That said, I quite like Lenny's Enigma. But then, I also like a good few others', too.
There had been plans for Lenny to do Elgar First symphony in a subsequent season with BBCSO and that all went to pot. In that documentary of the Enigma rehearsals you can feel the tension with the players
the thing is though, at that time Leonard Bernstein was a legend and a guest in their country( unless I'm mistaken). THat much should have been respected...No idea, then again, I'd never dream to come late to any of my rehearsals.
Dave, just calm down a bit on English critics, like most overpaid hacks they become too self-important/self-obsessed, even ones that start off being quite decent. A lot of US critics are just as bad. For the record, Jerrold Northrop Moore isn't English but American, born in New Jersey and educated at Yale. Agree about the Barbirolli but not the Boult and also have a soft spot for the Mehta Los Angeles version, among those you mentioned, but the tremendous Stoki, CPO version isn't at all idiomatic and I gave up on Lenny about 4 minutes into Nimrod.
Great review and insight into the EVs. Guess what I'm going to say... you missed out my favourite. Mehta/LAPO. A rich performance with energy and intensity. The finale is something else, great playing with the LAPO at its peak. My second favourite is the Del Mar.
I was thinking of adding that one too, but 18+ versions was enough.
I too am a great fan of Mehta's LAPO version!
Excellent and thought provoking survey. Although I like the piece, I haven't read much criticism centering on the Enigma Variations. I've enjoyed Norman Del Mar's recording for many years, along with Toscanini's BBC and NBC versions, despite the sonic limitations.
Heard Ashkenazy conduct this work at Severance Hall a few years ago. It marked one of two times I've wept at a concert.
When I heard it played live six or seven years ago, I was stunned to discover that Nimrod actually took my breath away. It was not something I was expecting.
I saw LB conduct Enigma with my mother! Unforgettable!
Thanks for your reviews Mr. Hurwitz your knowledge about recorded classical & barock music is frightening.
Very interesting. I first heard Enigma Variations when I was about 10 and am now in my 70’s so I have grown up with this piece. I have heard many versions but my favourite is Bernstein’s and I an English through and through. In my view Nimrod is majestic in this version. Again in my view many conductors take it far too fast. Thank you for av dry insightful video.👏
Wow, that's two jabs at Sterndale-Bennett in less than a week!
It just got stuck in my head. Pity me.
Dave, I think you're extremely harsh here about some of the names you mentioned such as Stanford and Parry for instance when you mention they're not good at anything. They weren't masters in orchestral works or standard classical repertoire, but Stanford for instance is still one of the most performed composers of Anglican church music and was a master in that sphere.
No, he may be frequently performed, but that doesn't make him a "master." It makes him performed in a very, very, very limited sphere in which musical quality is less important than other, non-musical factors, such as suitability for the liturgy.
1 LOVE SLATKIN ON RCA.I THINK SLATKIN IS A SUPERB CONDUCTOR OF ELGAR AND VAUGHAN WILLIAMS.YOUR VIDEOS ARE WONDERFUL.KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
Agree! I was blown away when I saw and heard him conduct Walton's 1st in Washington DC! More impressed that I thought I would be! But I remember he also was the Principal Conductor of the BBC Symphony for few years. He must have become more familiar with English music during this time.
@@BIGBAROK As I recall though, he didn't get along with the BBC SO either? This is partly what makes interpreting the furore about Bernstein's "Enigma" so tricky to interpret - was it anti-americanism, culture clash, or something else?
Big fan of Elder’s recording personally.
Me too, his Elgar is very noble, although I miss a touch of Soltian neuroticism.
Lennie has become larger than life, it seems! The Wanker comment here seems the right description to me!
Monteux, recorded by the famous Kenneth Wilkinson... I'm right with you. Wonderful.
For my money Tippett's Ritual Dances from The Midsummer Marriage is the most gorgeous 20th century British orchestral work.
Thanks for another great discussion. Jochum is definitely my favorite, but I like all of your selections. The older Haitink/LPO on Phillips is a sentimental favorite as it was one of the recordings of Enigma that introduced me to the piece.The Stern/KCSO and P Jaarvi/Cincinnati SO accounts are both excellent and very well recorded. I have read about the Levine/BPO but have not sought it out; would be curious to hear your thoughts on it.
The video of Bernstein rehearsing the BBC SO in this work is a hoot; he gets into a heated discussion with the principal trumpet. I read that the circumstances of this recording contributed to Lenny's decision that his future recordings would be live, with live "clean-up " sessions.
Lastly,this may be heretical to some, but I feel Barbirolli and Boult are somewhat over-rated in this work, wth soft-edged performances.
Levine's Enigma is like most non-operatic Levine that isn't Brahms: clean, clear, and not necessary.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks - that's generally what I would expect
I've come to appreciate very much Eric Coates and Frederic Delius.
💯
2:10 Parry and Stanford were DEFINITELY good at writing choral music(!)
edit: (except for maybe oratorios, but was anybody good at that in the 19th century?)
Mendelssohn, Dvorak, Brahms, Schumann... Yes, there are good Romantic-era oratorios.
Scenes from Goethe's Faust may be Schumann's greatest work of all, including his piano music.
@@marknewkirk4322 Not a fan of Elijah (or any of the more obscure stuff), and don't know an oratorio by Brahms, though I do love Das Paradies und die Peri and have a soft spot for St. Ludmila. I was being a little hyperbolic, but it's a pretty mediocre tradition, all things considered.
@@vaclavmiller8032 I would classify the Brahms German Requiem as an oratorio. And even if Mendelssohn's Elijah isn't your cup of tea, try his setting of Psalm 42. There's a tremendous recording by Helmut Rilling.
@@marknewkirk4322 Thanks for the recommendation!
Speaking as a tenor, the Parry I was Glad is one of the most fun pieces to just let it rip and sing the crap out of....without the vivat regina crap, just the original version. Agree about the Mendelssohn Psalm 42, a charming piece.
I can't imagine what it must feel like to know a great composer wrote a dignified and loving piece of music about you that would be played long after you were gone; people hearing you immortalized in sound. What an honor.
For me it's Del Mar and Monteux. JBs earlier Halle version on Pye is also excellent. I agree with you about Slatkin - belting conductor!!
Completely agree about the earlier JB!
@@michaelk6057 It's rather special. Much better than his remake in my humble opinion The Navarra version of the cello concerto coupled with it is also very underrated. For me it's one of the best.
Pierre Monteux with LSO is my pick.
I hesitate to point out that Jerrold Northop Moore isn't English, he was born in New Jersey!😉
I know, and I fail to see why that matters. A bunch of commentators take glee in pointing this out. He is an Elgar scholar writing for Gramophone, and adopts the persona of a critic of a certain type. I take him at his word. Most of these folks are, obviously, English by birth, but some may be American or anything else. This is not about nationality, but rather style and attitude. There are wonderful English critics whose work is not disfigured by nationalistic bias or narrow provincialism-.
Zinman's name comes up a lot in your reviews positively. He, unfortunately, is VERY hard to find. I love his Schumann cycle.....
If the likes of Ormandy and of Toscanini are not good enough (whether defined as "British enough" or however), why bother with this music at all?!? Of course, they are more than amply good enough. They are WONDERFUL in this repertory staple! Ekgar's best music is one of the artistic glories of the entire planet's great music. Is that not enough?
You say the BBCSO were pissed. Not in the English sense of the word I hasten to add!!
Maybe both.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Sometimes but not in the case of Lenny's Enigma. I'm no fan but the playing is superb. In the English sense I once left my parts for Tippett's Suite in D in the pub after a few beers and had to busk my way through. Not recommended :)
I'm a Brit, living in France. I simply LOVE Berstein's DG 'Enigma.' Now, about the moaners who claim that it's too slow. Well, often they make this claim based on Nimrod, listened to out of context. A bit like judging a roast dinner on the carrots alone.
As with pretty well all music, you have to listen to the WHOLE piece! Here in Bernstein's DG recording, Nimrod may well be slower than 'usual' but it sounds so very RIGHT; that is the skill of Bernstein - he makes everything sound RIGHT. So moaners - please re-assess.
And yes - he did with Sony, I think in that series with those crappy watercolour paintings by the Prince of Wales, on the covers.
I finally listened to the DG Bernstein at Dave's recommendation, and now everyone else's Nimrod feels rushed! Not my everyday Enigma, but I find myself returning to it again and again (and again). New respect for Lenny.
@@neilbullock4760 Exactly. Whatever magic Bernstein does to it, it sounds so, so, so right!
King Charles as he is now continues to get it in the neck for his artistic efforts, which to me is just a bit churlish - Dave also criticised the paintings on the CD covers. He's an amateur with no pretensions for his own art. This is what he once said "I am under no illusion that my sketches represent great art or a burgeoning talent!" he added. "They represent, more than anything else, my particular form of 'photograph album' and, as such, mean a great deal to me." I think it's sweet that our now King takes time out from his incredibly busy life to paint, as a spiritual exercise, his efforts are more than just decent, and they come from the heart.
As a retired symphony musician, I love your surveys, Dave! You’re always right on the money with your comments (conductors, tempi, balance, solos, etc.). We all got into this because of the love of the music! We all love certain pieces and recordings for our own reasons. And, even though we might have to play certain pieces a thousand times, we always remember that ONE time with a particular genius who pulled out the best in every aspect of that particular performance. Then we can put up with all of the rest, because we heard it one time as a masterpiece. PS. I would have liked to hear your assessment of the Rattle/Birmingham. As a violist, I always heard more brass than percussion, so Rattle/Birmingham sounds “normal.”
@@gerontius3 I was at that Leeds concert too - a wonderful performance. Brahms 2 in the second half, I remember.
I"m late to this video but I think Mark Elder and Halle is just miraculous.
I completely agree. I listened to the Jochum recording this morning for the first time and then listened to Mark Elder with the Halle with which I am more familiar. I think the latter is vastly superior in every respect.
The challenge you've now set yourself, Dave, is to give us the great non-American performances of American music
David - you do know that the insufferable English critic Jerrold Northrop Moore was an American. From New Jersey. Just saying... 😜
Yes, I knew it and in case I didn't about a hundred of you told me, thinking that was some kind of point or something. The very worst English critics were all American. I thought EVERYONE knew that.
Having lived the first third of my life in England, I can’t argue with your views on the general attitude of the English (not British, mind) towards things foreign in general, home-grown music in particular. Although to be fair, the Monteux performance of EV has long been praised by English critics.
I’m glad to hear you give a nod to Andrew Davis’s recording but I have to say his Elgar recordings in general fall way short of the performances I heard at Massey Hall back in the 70s. He opened my ears to a composer I could take or leave up to that point.
@@andrewclarke6899 Yes to the first. For the second, 25 years old, at that age where you realize the country of your birth and its people are struggling to come to terms what they don't know and their primary defence is to embark on personal attacks against those who point that out. Nothing has changed it seems.
Love it. This was about so much more than Elgar.
This man is a wonderful fellow! so entertaining. M :)
David. Jerrold Northrop Moore does not sound at all English, but yes, a daft comment by him
He's not. He just wishes that he were.
Don’t forget Leonard Bernstein was a lifelong pacifist who found himself in April 1982 contracted to conduct Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1 (named after the Shakespeare line ‘pride, pomp and circumstance of glorious war’) in the same month that the British task force sailed to an imperialistic war with Argentina.
Perhaps Bernstein played Nimrod slowly to replicate the style of a requiem for the war dead?
Thanks for your praise of Sir Arthur Sullivan - he is the most 'English' composer of them all.
Yes, very little (or none!) of that pastoral nostalgic stuff that came along around the turn of the century and later.... And yes, I know it can seem a bit Victorian and Tory Party Conference if you know what I mean, but its funny, and that's (thankfully) more English ultimately than the way people receive "Nimrod"....
Too bad Isidore Godfrey never recorded the Enigma Variations
The most "English"? And yet his best work sounds Mendelssohnian to me.
I know Bernstein's might not be the most idiomatic recording, but the Mahlerian approach is essential to me. So I need no other one.
It is very unusual, yet it's characteristic Bernstein. And he has the BBC Symphony Orchestra so that helps immensely.
The final crescendo of Nimrod works exceptionally well, it's a knockout. But the problem, in my view, is getting there. Bernstein just sets a ridiculously slow pulse from the start. It's like a car being driven in too high a gear; you're too concerned about it stalling to enjoy the ride. The melodic line is simply stretched beyond common sense. Not one of those notes was written with that level of drawn-out scrutiny in mind. Things improve with the second subject, but by then the car has suffered a bad shunt, and the remainder is a noble, but battered, experience.
It's the only recording I have of the Enigma Variations and I love it. But I can understand why not many people share my opinion.
@@stevouk The stretching of the melodic line in Nimrod seems to be crucial for Bernstein's interpretation of the whole piece, especially the melancholic theme and parts of the finale. Maybe one shouldn't impose the Mahlerian approach, but I like it this way.
On the other hand, Bernstein's recording is the only one I heard so far. So I don't know.
I absolutely love the Stokowski/Czech Phil recording, a live performance from 1972.
Apparently Stokowski had to teach the orchestra the piece from scratch with not very much rehearsal time. In spite of a couple of little slips in ensemble, however, the overall impression is not tentative.
In particular, notice the woodwinds in variations I, III, and VIII. Just exquisite. And Nimrod is not slow for the sake of slow. But my God, the phrasing and shading and pacing. Just magnificent. Stokowski let the Phase 4 producers excerpt the Czech Phil. Nimrod on LPs that otherwise featured his own arrangements.
But maybe the most beautiful moment of all is in variation XIII (Romanza), which is so passionate at one moment, haunting at the next. The clarinet solos with a touch of vibrato are full of heartache. I'm getting fogged up just writing about it...
There are a few slips but the electricity of this live performance shines through.
For all his affectations, was not in truth Stokowski an English organist...?
@@colinwrubleski7627 Shhh! Don't let the secret out.
The idea that you should be english to do the EV is truly sad. Should english conductors and orchestras lay off Beethoven? Pecksniffiness? Says it all. 😂 Can I dare to be so blunt as to permit myself to love it, norwegian as I am...? Leave Grieg alone, you english!
You really hit the nail on the head for Bernstein. I don’t like particularly like the slow version of Var. IX, it reminds me too much of the Tortoises from the Carnival of the Animals! I do like the Mogul Emperors on that disc, though.
I really like Sir John’s recording with the Hallé. I also like Mark Elder (Also with the Hallé). The Hallé is the only British orchestra that does the piece justice, in my opinion. European orchestras just seem to play it better.
Fun fact: The conductor who premiered the Enigmas was Hans Richter, the same guy who conducted Wagner’s Ring at Bayreuth, and Elgar absolutely adored Wagner’s music!
Most British composers (with the exception of Vaughan-Williams) were open Germanophiles, something that British critics love to deny, especially post-WWII, for obvious reasons!
Very astute observation about many of the British composers being Germanophiles. And of course English audiences in general loved both Mendelssohn-Bartholdy and his heirs in general...
Further, there is the inconvenient fact GF Handel (and King George I) were originally Germanic. Things are a little more complicated than they seem on the surface.~
@@colinwrubleski7627 Mendelssohn had a huge British following and the amount of people I know who think that Handel is more British than German, despite being born in Germany!
I personally think that British Classical music owes a lot to the German tradition, whilst having its own uniqueness.
My favourite British composers other than Elgar and Purcell are Fredrick Delius and Havergal Brian, and Brian’s symphonies (all 32 of them, an unusual amount for a 20th Century composer) are masterpieces in their own right!
He is what Mahler either wanted to be or should’ve been if he didn’t die so early.
Delius’s opera Fenimore Und Gerda is probably my favourite opera written by a British composer that isn’t Dido and Aeneas, and the libretto was written in German, by Delius himself, which is a skill I do admire, being an amateur composer/multi-lingual librettist myself.
I’m not a fan of Elgar’s music at all, but have sat through plenty of performances in concerts in England. Glad to hear Norman Del Mar’s name in this company. There were a handful of Strauss discs on EMI’s Classics for Pleasure labels - I don’t think I’ve ever seen them on CD. As for EV - I’m becoming more interested in Jochum’s recordings of composers not beginning with B. I’ll give it a try, if anyone can make sense of it for me Jochum can. Thanks for the broadside on English critics too - they deserve it.
As a English man I find myself totally agreeing with you on this matter of English music. I have many Naxos cds of British music played by non British orchestras and find them to be fabulous. I am in the Bernstein camp of loving his Elgar disc, which has been a favourite for many years. Great music is great music and is universal 😎😎
Elgar is necessary FOR ME. I don't care one bit whether the rest of the world respects him or not. And I don't care what he didn't write. And I don't care about the so-so pieces he produced between his great works. Beethoven, remember, wrote Christ on the Mount of Olives and Der glorreiche Augenblick. Elgar wrote nothing as bad as either of those pieces.
Oh, yes he did. The Light of Life, for example. Yech!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Agreed. Had Elgar wasted less time on his biblical choral epics he could have written a few more symphonies and concertos. Delius said that Catholicism ruined Elgar and he seemed intent on setting the whole of the Bible to music - or something along those lines. :)
I cannot add a single useful or meaningful word to your fantastic, excellent talk. For once, I 100% agree with you. I like what you said about music that trascends localism. I just cannot understand how or why on Earth would anybody deny the universalism of an artist or a piece of art just for the sake of having the 'ownership'. As a Spaniard, I would have been more than proud that Albéniz, de Falla or Rodrigo were recognised as classical composers and not just as a local nationalist school, which seems to be the obvious choice. I also love when their music or even 'zarzuela' is played by foreign orchestras. I am sure that lots of Britons feel the same about their Sullivans and Elgars, but maybe critics have other agendas in mind.
Interestingly enough, my first take on the Enigma was Monteaux (coupled with Karajan's Planets in Vienna). I did not like the piece until I listened to Jochum's. My first impression was something like 'is this the same piece of music?' and then went back to Monteaux and somehow reconciled with him. Nevertheless, my favorurite remains Jochum's.
yes, exactly. nobody (that I have read) says Spanish music can only be played by Spanish orchestras. It is a bit different with piano and guitar music however as I'm sure you know.... Music has to travel.
@@paxpaxart4740Berlioz, Ravel, Debussy and many French (and Belgian) composers have trascended their own countries without problems. Even Furtwängler conducted Ravel. Is there any evidence that French critics objected to non-French interpretations?
On the other hand, it is curious how Balakirev, for instance, is labelled as a nationalist-Russian composer, Grieg as a nationalist-Norwegian composer, and so the list goes on (Dvorak, Albéniz, D'Indy?, Ives?, etc.) ... yet Bruckner is not categorised as a nationalist-Austrian composer (ländler trios? the alla-polka section in the third's Finale?), nor are Schubert or Mahler, at least to my knowledge.
And when Ravel and Debussy are epitomized as impressionists (that's how they taught it to me), my personal opinion is that old-school-scholars might have feared the French reaction and did not dare to use 'nationalism', but these composers were not on the same level as Wagner, Brahms, R. Strauss or Mahler (Heaven forbid!). Therefore, they picked a conventional, pretentious, alternative way to separate them from the bunch of nationalists. 'Is there something typically French from the end of the nineteenth century?' 'Yeah, I heard there is something called impressionist paintings' 'Ok, that sounds good to me' 'But impressionist style has also been used by painters in other countries' 'Never heard of it'.
I must admit that I do not like this work very much. I tried often, even with the score, even without listening, just reading the score a.s.o. A fine work, of course, but my admiration rests cold. The british composers of this gegeration are for me rather Waughan Williams, Holst, Bridge and Foulds. But the two conductors, which made the "Enigma" accessible for me, are Jochum and, even more, Bernstein. I know that Bernstein is in a certain way "wrong", because he tries to make a Mahlerian work out of the "Enigma" (not only in Nimrod; all what he does with the strings is of Mahlerian breath, of course you know the jiddish word "Brenn" - that's what it sounds to me, it has brenn). If one wants to get to know the work, I would say: Take Jochum. But if one wants to know, what a conductor can make out of the work, I would say: Take Bernstein.
I have to agree. Neither the EV nor The Planets does much for me. Strange, as I am usually drawn to pieces that require a massive orchestra.
Whether you like it or not, I find Bernstein's recording of Enigma to be one of the clearest examples of his ability as a conductor. He took an approach to the work that the orchestra hated and yet was able to not only get the BBCSO to perform it, but to perform it extremely well. And it is perfectly idiomatic; yes his Nimrod is slow, but the tempo is adagio after all.
Adagio yes, but in the score it's 52 to the quarter note. Bernstein is about 25 to the quarter.....doesn't work for me at all. Elgar may have been a lousy conductor technically, but I think he was right that Nimrod is not a wallow. I love Lenny 97% of the time, but not for his Nimrod. He's not the only one to drag it, but certainly is the most extreme. Thanks (Dave) for the kudos toward Stokowski, Jochum & Monteux..... what about Charles Groves? I need to hear it again in my own "shoot out", but I loved it when I got that big Groves Warner set. Enjoying Del Mar now, thanks for the head's up.
I prefer a swifter Nimrod myself, but like listening to Bernstein's every now and then just for the different approach and perspective. Groves is one of my favorites too.
Lenny was a great conductor. No doubt about that. The BBCSO are a top pro band. They always play well despite disliking the conductor or the way they are being asked to play the music. It's their job.
Yes the tempo is adagio, not lento. For all the excellence of Bernstein in the other movements the whole performance is ruined for me with Nimrod played as a self-indulgent funeral dirge. The performance is as much a tribute to the professionalism of the BBC SO as to Bernstein's ability. The mood of Nimrod should be one of grateful celebration for Elgar's friend and publisher August Jaeger who did so much to advance Elgar's music and career. I grew up with Malcolm Sargent's recording with the Philharmonia. Heaven knows what I'd think of it now!
@@pauljesson1 I WILL say, that hearing Bernstein/VPO live doing the Mahler 5th was something special. And his super-slow Adagietto "worked" in the hall and in the context of his overall shaping of the work, but when the DG recording of it came out it didn't have that affect on me at all....it went back to being a self-indulgent wallow, which is just something one has to accept along with all the great things he accomplished. I don't think I would have liked this Nimrod under similar favorable live circumstances.
Conductors did it good, but Lenny did it best!