Angron was made to be a perfect guard dog. One that would walk around the fence and rip the throat out of any intruders and ten minutes later let little children ride on its back
you havent read his book then, angron was made the way he was by the nails. edit probably made worse by the emperor who refused him the opportunity to save what was left of his people on nuceria and just kinda left him with his legion who he had no attachment to pretty sad story really
@@montaguegray7486 yes I have read the book. The butcher’s nails made him more violent and less empathetic but even without them he is still a primarch. He was literally created for violence. I fail to see how your comment has any impact on my analogy whatsoever.
@@montaguegray7486 Typical people in this community misunderstanding everything and failing to understand how to read. Angron was always made to be a killer. A vicious brutal killer. However, he was also supposed to symbolize the bond of brotherhood and empathy. He was supposed to be the ultimate big brother of the primarchs. One who would teach you, look out for you, help you, and also kick other people’s ass if they messed with you. The nails took most of that away and just left him with the vicious brutal killer part.
Very much on the noes, you can see the loyalty even though the nails when the emperor takes him away from his gladiator companions. He would rather die with them, then live to take revenge or finish what they started. His loyalty was to his comrades and them alone.
Angron could have surpassed Leman Russ as a warrior king. He could have been one of nobelest of primarchs. Despite the butchers nails, Angron had the ability to see through a lot of bs of the other primarchs. He even called the other primarchs out for their bs. Even in his broken state he was highly emphatic. Maybe because of this he suffered so much from the butchers nails. Angron himself said, the Emperor should have granted him a heroes death. Because Angron knew he was broken beyound healing.
He also refused to have them removed when Lorgar thought he could help him. Angron was very intelligent and emphatic, but he ended up chasing the serenity of bloodshed and butchery to appease the butchers Nails
@wispfire2545 "angron died on those sands with his true kin. A shell is all you will get. The ghost of angron." I know I quoted it but idk if it's fully accurate. It's very close though.
@@Maidez09 it's been confirmed that there was supposed to be a decent amount of overlap between the Primarchs, intended redundancies I think is the term they used.
@@Maidez09 If you think about it , as a parent before your child is born you wish it will be smart , kind and healthy . But it also depends on how you raise your child . Angron had no adoptive parents , he was abused every day of his life . Konrad Curze also , he intended his legion to be honourable , but the Nostromo nobility only sent him criminals of the worst kind for recruits , making him despise his own sons ..
@@ElectricRavagE Angron had a fellow slave army he loved/ish and wanted to die with when The Emperor showed up. Curze had no one, he learned everything from eating the locals and watching what they do. His future was always pre-determined in his eyes, he knew The Emperor would show up, knew it would all go to s*** but went along with it all anyway (yes it's true about Nostraman nobility sending cowardly, backstabbing, criminals as recruits) but he knew it would happen. Even marked out a few he liked for their future deeds (Telos)
The Emperors reaction when he found Angron sums it up. The fact that he was shocked at what Angron had turned into really tells us of what the emperor might have intended his son to be. What I'd give to see Angron's true nature without the nails. Truelly, he could've been the most compassinate of Primarchs rivaling even that of Vulkan. He would even be more likable not only amongst his brothers but also to his very own sons. Everytime i hear his story it is indeed tragic.
what i thought that angron was suppose to be was the therapist . the reason why was that it would help new plaints to cope with the information if being under the imperium's rule. this would also have the added affect of fighting chaos with out even lifting a finger as to under stand ones self can help reject the chaos gods influence.
He was supposed to help forge the family bonds not break them! I imagine Angron sitting down with Lorgar, Konrad, and Pertarabo trying to help with there issues maybe even fixing them
I would've loved to see that. Angron, Primarch of the Warhounds (not World Eaters, because if this is an Angron who was possibly discovered and aided by the Emperor before the Butcher's Nails incident, and led a successful revolution against the Nucerian High Riders which freed all slaves, including his surrogate father, then Angron would have no reason to change his Legion's name). Inside an elegant but peaceful courtyard of the Imperial Palace, Angron sits with his brother Horus Lupercal, on the latter's promotion to Warmaster. Horus speaks in detail about his own doubts, how he believes Sanguinius and Guilliman were better choices than he is, and elaborates on his feelings of distrust on why his Father would not reveal to him his plans on Terra, to which Angron points out that their Father chose him because he represents the best in all his brothers, their Father, and all Mankind, whether Horus realizes it or not. Angron further explains that being Warmaster had nothing to do with how well you fight or lead; being the Warmaster makes you the representative of all Mankind and the traits that make Man unique. Horus embodies those wondrously beautiful traits, and can bring the very same out of all those around him. Furthermore, Angron explained his beliefs that it is not for the Primarchs to know what the Emperor is doing, but to take comfort in knowing that what He is working on is for the ultimate benefit of the Imperium, of all Mankind, and that it was best for the Primarchs to not know, for it was for their protection as well. And a great father will always protect and care for his children to the end. And it was in that very moment that History was changed forever. For as Horus was filled with a renewed sense of faith and courage, Angron had forever denied the Ruinous Powers their greatest champion, and their only hope in preventing the Anathema from bringing order and peace to a war-torn galaxy.
@@steffanyschwartz7801 I'm pretty sure Angron would be going through each and every Primarch who would take part in the Heresy. Konrad is perhaps the most obvious as he has more mental baggage than any head shrink is qualified to handle, with the exception of T4S Alucard. Magnus and Perturabo would be interesting, but perhaps another one that could use help more than those two, but not as much as Horus would probably be Lorgar, as the destruction of Monarchia screwed with him as much as, if not more than the burning of Prospero messed with Magnus.
Angron was meant to represent the Emperor's "Pity" and "Compassion". Which is why the Butcher's Nails did so much damage. They dragged him in the other direction.
I've always thought Angron and the 12th were intended to be desperate defense fighters akin to Vulkan and the salamanders. Taking despair and hurt and sorrow and channeling it into a fiery and unyielding spirit of war meant to inspire his men and the Imperium. The impassioned fury of humanity in the darkest hour. Instead, the Emperor found a scarred, and broken Angron, one who would almost certainly never fulfill the destiny the Emperor had planned. The grief and pain at the loss of losing such a noble son (And the fear of losing him fully) is what causes the emperor to refuse Angrons requests to help the slaves of Nuceria, in addition to the other logistical reasons theorists usually give. One of the things I find most compelling about this theory is that it plays directly into the tragedy of Angrons story. The Emperor fears to lose Angron and let's that fear cloud his judgment and make the mistake that truly costs him his son.
There's also a slight flaw in Big E's feelings towards his son. If he so much as so loved his son, why couldn't he given his son the aid that he desperately needed. In a "What If" scenario, the Emperor sent forth the 12th legion to aid their primarch's fight against the slavers of Nuceria. Although hesitant at first at such aid, Angron probably saw that his sons were ready to die for his cause even though he only just saw him first for the first time. It would certainly lessen the friction between Angron and his sons but ultimately, we all know what really happened.
The problem I see with this theory is even before he was reunited with his sons and renamed them the World Eaters, they were as the War Hounds already the most savage and brutal of the legions. Its suggested for their original founding on Terra they recruited only the most aggressive individuals they could find from across Terra, and their gene-seed did nothing to temper that savagery. Every other legion showed psychological quirks similar to their primarchs even before their gene fathers were found and recovered, and all the War Hounds had ever displayed was pure violent ferocity. This very much feels like a case of GW trying to redefine the World Eaters as a less one-dimensional legion, but struggling to do so because they haven't left themselves much wiggle room with how they'd previously described and portrayed the legion. Not that I'm against a more nuanced and interesting Angron, I just feel like without retcons there's little they can do to develop his character at this point.
@MattManLie What? logistical reasons? who theorized that? wasn't a damn thing stopping the emperor from pancaking nuceria and everyone on it with minimal effort
@@Ishkaga02 i don't know where i heard it or what book it's from but i remember a story about "The War Hounds" being told to take a city and when the rest of the Imperial forces caught up they asked where the prisoners was and the War Hounds responded "prisoners?" 50/50 i heard it from Arch but not sure
Just to illustrate how foolish the Eldar can be. They probably had some scary vision and instead of attempting to rescue, keep an eye on the child, or even raise him (far fetched I know) they try to destroy Angron, and thus fulfilling the vision that they were so scared of. Thanks Farseers, you really know what you're doing
In a way I can see some world eaters having a sliver of Angrons power, like their Librarious who helped control Angron during his bouts of rage, and Kharn who in a way was Argel Tals consular and Sigismunds. A theory is that they were very aggressive because they absorved the aggression from others onto themselves.
Dude, I think that the three of them would've not only been total bros to each other, but also a truly devastating trio if their legions were matched together.
Of the many (and deary me, were there SO VERY MANY) flaws of the Big E, doing what he did when he reached Angron, ignoring the plight of his adopted brothers and sisters, knowingly allowing them to fall, not using his literal GODLIKE powers to deal with the nails...man oh man did Angron get the super short end of the stick. Heck, I won't be surprised if he went YOLO on the Imperium even if HH did not happen. Being furious at the Big E for allowing this to occur barely scratches the surface.
Perhaps Big E knew the Heresy was coming but not quite who would turn so he tried his best to love and nurture the ones he wanted to remain loyal while the ones he didn't care about losing as much such as Angron he treated poorly. Of course, if that's the case, then a wrench was thrown into those plans as Magnus and Horus still turned even though Big E gave them a lot of attention
Yup, he would'nt have even needed to get involved himself either. A couple hundred Custodes would have rolled over the planets leadership in a afternoon or at the least he'd have been able to evac the other slaves out of danger. I highly doubt Dorn, Guilliman, Horus or any of the other primarchs would have handled it the way The Emperor did if they had been the ones to find him, asking them to go away and let him die with his "brothers and sisters" they 100% would have deployed their legions and started handing out slaps
@@banneduser5187 Oh yeah. Any of the primarchs (Curze included) would have handled it better than Big-E. Even Konrad Curze. The crazier than a shit-house rat Konrad Curze.
Baldemort had an interesting take on the situation with angron. Big E had either the option to let his son die or make the pragmatic choice to get some return of investment and turn angrons rage and hatred upon himself the emperor just so his son could keep going for a while longer. Even if it meant that Angron could turn traitor easily. i think it´s a good father vs ruler conflict.
Im convinced he was meant to be the most empathetic of the primarchs, the primary diplomat in terms of politics and the healer in terms of war, that was why Angron had the ability to take away other gladiator kids pain and why it hurt him so much to kill for the first time as well as why the Emperor treated him so coldly. When he arrived at Nuceria he likely expected to find the most human of his sons, someone he would finally be able to voice his compassion and possibly even guilt to but found someone who'd had his true nature twisted by the butchers nails into basically being a less useful version of Leman, the strength and military capabilities of a primarch with their personality and unique features stripped away. As such he saw him as a broken toy, someone only useful to him in a pragmatic "how many xenos can i kill with this thing" way not in the creation of a new civilization.
I have to wonder if, to a certain degree, if we assume he was meant to help bring the family together, for that reason alone, he was a primary target for the Chaos gods to be corrupted.
Rho! I think you should do this for every Primarch. Going through what we can understand from what they were supposed to be, and then comparing it to what they are and became. I think that would be really interesting and could add more depth to the Primarchs on your channel!
In one of the books about Guilliman's revival wasn't there some mention of a lot of people saying "Guilliman is the most human of the Primarchs?" And the reason we're told Vulcan has this compasion for humans is his close relationship with his adopted father. Guilliman also having that close relationship with both his adopted parents as well. All I'm saying is I don't think we need to see Angron as being the other compassionate Primarch. There already seems to be a candidate. Still I suppose you could say that was all nurture not nature.
Well, Angron did actually have a close relationship with his adopted older brother/father figure - Oenomaus. He also, after the nails mind you, had such a bond with his brothers and sisters in slavery that he literally cut open his own veins to keep them running on his own blood
War Hounds/World Eaters/Angron really seems like GW was approaching them from the perspective of "Insane Berserker Chaos Marines" first, and their uncorrupted form being secondary. Almost as if GW really didn't care what they were before they were Chaos Marines and didn't really want to make an effort to explain their Corruption. "Yeah, they liked to murderize everything for the Emperor, then Chaos came around and said "You can murderize EVERYTHING now if you say "Blood for the Blood God!" first." and the World Eaters went "Cool. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! *stabs starving orphan boy* Oh boy this feels GREAT! You should try this out, brothers!" Then someone came along and went "Wait. That's not GrimDark. That's just... lazy. It's not Dark, it's not Grim, it's just Lazy. Let's fix that." and now we've got a truly GrimDark fall of a Primarch who could have been amongst the most Noble of the Primarchs, and a Legion who was once Exceedingly Violent, yes, but Honourable and entirely committed to their Brotherhood. And the two sides of the Lore don't mesh well yet. Fingers crossed the new Codex can fix that.
you do realize that that is how the horus heresy story was developed, yes? Originally the chaos marines were just the spikey and evil counterpart to imperial marines. It wasn't until the horus heresy books kicked off that they were developed into more than that. originally the horus heresy wasn't at all fleshed out and just some background myth brought up by lore snippets here and there. There was no comprehensive pre heresy lore until then.
He could eat dreams in Nuceria.. He followed up by eating the dreams, cities, worlds of other people. And his own sons. And generally anything that couldn't snap him in half like Perturabo or Hyperion ;)
Yeah in the blood angels horus heresy books Sanginius himself said, he was never the primarch of the noble cause. In reality not Angron was the primarch of rage but Sanginius. Kharn once said Angron was broken beyound healing. He was so broken that he lost his psionic atattachment to his own legion. Kharn said, the best cause of for Angron would have been to be killed in a last battle against his enslavers. The pre heresy World Eaters were basically like the blood angels. But then then the roles reversed later. Because before the blood angels found their primarch they were extremly unstable and went berserk all the time.
@@Navinor the current timeline day sons of Sanguinius are extremely unstable and go berserk all the time. Well before the Devastation Of Baal anyway, think there's only a couple thousand first borns left in the galaxy now. Dante however is a f-ing specimen, imo best space marine to ever live (sure sigismund would kick his ass in a 1v1 easily but he could do never do what dante has) sigismund was a life ender, dante is a saviour
@@banneduser5187 Yes, the blood angels are in the end their gene fathers sons. Despite being the aspect of rage, Sanginius always tried to be as calm as possible. He never encouraged the Blood Angels to give in into the red thirst. After his death, the blood Angels had to fight with the black rage on top of that too. Because of this they are always fighting the urge to become mindless berserkers. The sad thing with the World Eaters is the way they tried to get closer to their Primarch. Kharn said, because Angron was broken, he could not make the typical psionic link with his legion which others primarchs had not a problem with. Even Night Haunter who hated his Legion, could keep the Night Lords in check only by his presence. This was intendet by the gene cults who worked for the Emperor. So the World Eaters destroyed their own brains with the butchers nails to be closer to their primarch.
To my guess his role would be very similar to that of leman Russ but the difference being that of a guard dog vs a wild wolf considering that the name of his legion was the was war hounds. Every primarch for the most part had a similar brother with a slight differences. Rogal and perty Corvus and konrad etc I imagine that he was going to be the noble wrath of the emperor the wrath of good man is for more terrifying then a selfish wrath.
Yeah Angron would have been one of the most nobles primarchs. Basically the pinnacle of a warrior king. The best mix out of Leman and Sanginius. Beating generals in 1vs 1 duels to make sure more bloodshed could be avoided.
As far as I see it, Angron represents the Emperors compassion. He was highly empathetic. The nails forced him to experience pain , suffering, rage to such a intense degree, that he is now unable to relate to the suffering of everyday people... Oh the tragedy.
I'm surprised no one has made a comparison of Angron to John Coffey from the Green Mile. The ability to take the suffering of others onto himself and dispel it away.
Maybe he was supposed to be the soul of the Primarchs since Vulkan is the heart. Especially given that people originally considered Angron the strongest because of his rage whereas Vulkan was the strongest but held back due to not wanting to hurt his brothers.
I don't think we will ever know what Angron would of been like without the brutality he endured on Nuceria and without 'The Nails' but I like to think he could of been alot like the Horus of The Great Crusades, The Horus before the moon of Davin and his fall to Chaos!
this was something i theorized that Angron was made to be his familial love; you could look to the book 'Betrayer' near the end he becomes a Big brother to the world eaters. The nails were what destroyed him but that's what made me really like him as a character.
I still have to read some of the books. But, I've got some theories about a few other Primarchs based on what I know about them so far. The 40k universe has so much room for lore, that it seems like most anything could be plausible.
Amazing video. It really brought back my thoughts on the matter, when I was reading Slave of Nuceria. I agree with all of your points and I would also like to add that his sons sacrificed themselves to come closer to him. To understand his pain. Their apothecaries also were some of the best of the Legionis Astartes and their Librarians also displayed similar empathic psychic powers ( as described in the excellent novel Betrayer)... Your idea of a Spartan/Greek Hoplite kind of Brotherhood also occured to me , especially when about Captain Mago and his company. You should make a video of this excellent story if you haven't already done it!!! Thank you very much for your video!!!🙏🙏🙏
Every Primarch is an aspect of war. I think Angron was meant to be the aspect of Rebellion, or a Freedom Fighter. Angron's unique power of empathy would've made him more connected to the suffering of the weak around him, and he'd have fought on their behalf with all the rage he's known for. He already hates tyrants and his backstory on Nuceria was all rebellion and camaraderie between slaves. He's literally Spartacus.
I really do think that they should've fleshed out Angron's rebellion a lot more. Maybe with it being like a mix of Spartacus meeting the Yellow Turban Rebellion, but due to some Nails and a betrayals or something, it ends up falling apart.
He's actually supposed to mirror Sanguinius very closely, with a more down to earth Vulkan personality. And while im sure people will argue, that's going off the brotherhood thing and the legion issue which Angron was supposed to fix. Each legion had an issue btw, one their Primarchs fixed. The World Eaters had an issue with auxiliary casualties. Why Angron was supposed to be a mirror to Sanguinius, is because he is quite literally compared to him in every way including his rage. We take away the rage, he is still compared to be "as beautiful as Sanguinius" by Kharn. Assuming ofc he didn't grow up the way he did, and grew up the way Emps wanted him to. If we stick with the general real world location he is pulled from, he is supposed to be a Marcus Aurelius figure. A man beloved by the people, hard as nails and willing to give all his power away to the people. Humble. The issue with that ofc, is that normal, Un-Nailed Angron would have rebelled anyways due to his speech to Russ. Angron, assuming his personality and out look remain the same, would have seen the whole Imperium as slavery and just rebelled.
would be fantastic if angron was the one that gets redeemed. Big E uses warp powers to change him from the red monster he is, into the *red angel* that he would become, free of the nails as he went demon form so the change would of healed him. which is why Lohgar did it...right? it would kind of make sense in the terms of Big E since he could use his new terms of enslavement as a way of turning his previous issues into loyalty and fix past mistakes. match - vulcan buuuuut angron and the khan would make a interesting team up. i kinda want a short story of them fighting orcs on some world togather, angron being the anvil and khan the hammer.
I'd like to make special note of the World Eaters' Psyker detachment in Betrayer who were able to create, maintain and hold a Psychic hivemind capable of coaxing ANGRON out of his rages while in the middle of a battle. If not for thr sensitivity of the Butcher's Nails I think we could reasonably speculate the War Hounds/World Eaters mightve become Telepath capable of rivaling the Psychic might of the Blood Angels or White Scars. A hypothetical War Hounds successor would more than likely show higher rates of Empathic Psychic power given Angron's base template if it's still on file somewhere
He was meant to be like Vulcan. But I think without the nails he would have formed a special friendship with Corax as liberators and opponents of oppression.
Well, Corvus Corax and Konrad hate each other, for very different reasons than you think that Angron and Vulcan may not get along. Corax and Konrad had very little in common. Konrad was a believer in the power of terrorism, fear, torture and murder. Corax grew up under such people. He got to see what terrorists, fear and murderers did to people, and realized that was not in him. Konrad was repulsed by his brother, because he saw his brother as weak. A preaching weakling lacking the strength to do what was necessary. Corax, on the other hand, viewed his brother as being disgusting and despicable, because of his tyrannical ways, the fact that he was a psychopathic murderer, and placed no value on life. One believed that the best way to protect Humanity was to cow it into submission, while the other believed that the best way to protect Humanity was to interpose his body between the strong and the weak. I think you're confusing post butcher's nails Angron, with pre. The personality that you see now in Angron is not his true personality. This is a personality that is scarred and distorted beyond recognition by a lifetime of trauma, and torture, and relentless, unspeakable pain and anguish, starting from early childhood. The real Angron was a man that believed in charity and compassion, to the deepest parts of his soul, unlike his so-called "father", the Corpse Emperor. I think that Vulcan and Angron would get along famously, because I believe Angron represented the Corpse Emperor's non-existent trait of self-sacrifice, true compassion, patience, leadership and empathy.
I loved the angron Primarch book it was tragic.I loved the part when he found that he could take away the pain and dispair of others just by touching them,take it into himself and disperse it etc.... amazing
Perturabo was the ruthless drill sergent you follow because he got the victory even in the bleakest battlefield, Guilliman was the one you trusted to plan to maximize the effectiveness of your teamwork, Russ was the one who challenged you to one up him in glories of battle, the Lion out of knightly virtue and composure, but Angron was meant to be the empath that was in the trenches with you, sharing your burdens and inspiring true comradery. When his purpose was corrupted, he inverted those gifts, because making people feel alone (Russ demonstrated they had zero teamwork), unsafe, expendable and cornered created the perfect conditions to provoke his rage, as well as those of his sons. The nails forced him to twist how those gifts developed to guarantee his survival.
Rho: Which primarch do you think Angron was truly supposed to mirror. Pretty much everyone: Vulkan. But I do honestly think that an untainted Angron would've at least been total bros with Vulkan. Maybe not agreeing on everything, but actually having a brotherly love and respect for each another.
Slaves to Darkness is a book written in the Matt Ward style, if anything it should be retconned because it is that bad even discounting the Angron v Pert fight
I can actually see him pairing very well with Purterabo. Both legions are being sent on grilling, thankless missions against the most challenging, most dug-in enemies, with the Angron providing the empathy Purterabo needed while also providing a strong, steady presence to help keep Angrons empathy overwhelming him in the face of punishing circumstances.
I like the idea of Angron being the heart of every other Primarch, he was supposed to be the shoulder you cry, the compassionate one. The complete opposite what he is now
Another point I'd make is the connection he forms with Lotara Sarrin... a human. Now don't get me wrong with the corruption that has already taken root it affected all elements of the forces under his command at this point. But... one of the themes I've really seen is the way that the authors use the connections with humans in some way connected to traitor legions to highlight the nobler aspects inherent within the philosophies and characteristics they embody. She's the kind of character you'd be rooting for in a guard or navy novel. Absolutely loyal and a total fearless badass. The fact that in the middle of the heresy, as he's being completely taken by the madness of the nails... and he took to her and empathized with her. That's... a situation even Vulkan would struggle to be empathetic in.
Someone on a thread wrote that angron without the nails if he reached his potential couldve become a viable candidate if not warmaster and after reading everything I could find on pre-nails angron I really see it
Just pointing out that your theory makes sense from the legions behavior in taking on the butcher's nails to have a closer connection with their primarch.
What I also think will be interesting is what kind of Chaos primarch he will be in the Lore. Personally I would like him to be a little like his pre heresy self. A mindless raging monster would in my mind be boring. Sure by all means let him be a close combat monster, but let him also be a tactical genius. Insted of attacking that huge city or army. He instead would attack supply lines ammo depos and such, so that when he does attack that army instead of being cut to ribbons by the enemies Guns and canons. He can get right into their face, since his enemies have run out of ammo and are low on supplies.
He was made to be a noble warrior and a champion of the Imperium. His keen empathy and intellect would sniff out betrayal in his ranks or his brothers, and his strength of arm would root it out. He could have mirrored with Ferrus Manus, the self-sure brother who demands discipline and skill as a matter of course, discarding those who cannot keep up with his expectations, where Angron would inspire even the lowest recruit to be everything they can be.
Having a leader who can help soldiers with their pain would be great. Yes the legion had horrific battles but they had a leader who they all believed in, helped them all
Angron is the most tragic of the primarchs, the saddest “what could have been”. For a good view of what Angron should have been (and what Kharn should have been) is a chapter in “Imperium Ascendent” fanfiction. I highly recommend it !
Imagine, if you can, a legion of space marines that were fueled by emotions, yet not consumed by them. The suffering of innocents inspires righteous fury, the presence of fellows brings seamless precision, and being deployed with other legions is seen as a boon for front line coordination and legendary apothecaries. A.G.
Angron and the War Hounds/World Eaters are easily becoming my favorite thing about 40k, i think its the most tragic fall of them all, a heartbreaking tale of wasted potencial
I think he was always destined for a military purpose, but was supposed to be the sergeant to Horus's Warmaster, a warrior that would ensure the well-being and discipline of the soldiers of the Imperium, the Frontline hero that could inspire with his deeds on the battlefield but also would show his deep care for those around him. Instead he was rabid dog barely held on by a breaking chain.
I think he mirrors Konrad Curze most closely. Both primarchs are clearly broken from the beginning, Angron by the Nails, Kurze apparently by his farseeing - although it's not clear why he would become so sadistic because of that. They go on to be monsters, and lead legions of monsters, even in the Crusade, long before the Heresy.
I could see this concept of overlapping Vulkan's compassion as the dominant feature. The idea of selfless sacrifice in defense of man of the extreme that Vulkan and the Salamanders are known for might have been somewhat mirrored in the sort of almost suicidal last stand kind of methods for ending a fight in defense of man. Even the flavor of being more savage from Forge World could plausibly make sense in that frame, with Angron being able to help people shake the pain of those non-space marines who need his help because of what they had to do to survive or whatever.
I wonder if the Heresy would even start if Angron was like he was intended to be. He could've been with Lorgar when the Emperor humiliated him. He could've been with Curze, giving him a short time of peace and clarity to think. He could've opened eyes to Perturabo or Horus. Of course, it's a little optimistic view - primarchs were always busy with war, scattered in different parts of the Galaxy and rarely communicated with each other. But still, potential was there. Though I never thought I would imagine Angron like an emotional support dog
The war hounds legion have a strong sense of brotherhood, I think this would go hand in hand with Angron’s abilities to heal. Creating a legion along the lines of the salamanders. Except, maybe less pro human at all cost. Abs more get the job done and respect Humans
I like the comparison to ancient Sparta, because Spartan warriors actually wore their hair in dreadlocks as part of their military uniform, and the Butcher's Nails are basically techno-dreads.
I don't... the Spartans were absolutely brutal slavers. Angron hated slavers. (like, even for the time I mean. They held a Purge every year... and encouraged the slaves to turn on each other to "eliminate the weak")
The part that always annoyed me was that they couldn't figure how to remove those stupid nails after they retrieved agron. This is 30k pre-corpse emperor with the help of all 18 primarchs. But nope. It's just beyond them.
I forget, but weren't the Nails some sort of technological remnant or holdover from the Dark Age of Technology? If so, that would explain how the Imperium, even at its height, couldn't get them out as Dark Age Tech was vastly superior.
Honestly I see Angron as being the paragon of brotherhood. Look at his (former) librarius, they seem to specialise in communal psychic powers. Before they were slaughtered, they seemed to foster a sense of community that slowly degraded once they were gone. Source, the book where Lorgar and Angron are burning Gullimans worlds. The shadow crusade I think?
I just had an idea, what if he was made to fight with the blood angels? The blood angels rage and the war hounds ability to calm the rage. They are able to fight aggressively along side the angels with calm minds. And when their angel brothers are about to fall, they can take their rage and suppress it. Man, now that would be a buzzsaw combo. Maybe that’s why the emperor was so depressed when he saw angron. Not only was he ruined but also ruined the rage of blood angels.
The problem I see with this theory is even before he was reunited with his sons and renamed them the World Eaters, they were as the War Hounds already the most savage and brutal of the legions. Its suggested for their original founding on Terra they recruited only the most aggressive individuals they could find from across Terra, and their gene-seed did nothing to temper that savagery. Every other legion showed psychological quirks similar to their primarchs even before their gene fathers were found and recovered, and all the War Hounds had ever displayed was pure violent ferocity.
I love that Angron and Lorgar were closest to each other out of all the primarchs. The two brothers the Emperor most wronged and who were ostracized by their brothers forming a bond is strangely wholesome for Warhammer.
The way I see it, is that the Nails just sped up what as ultimately going to be his fate, anyways. If the Emperor did give him this psychic empathy, just think of the guy from the movie the Green Mile. He constantly took on other people's pain, and he kept saying "I'm tired, Boss. Of people being ugly to each other. Of hurting each other. " I feel like Angron would eventually fall to Chaos anyways because he would feel the pains of torture that prolonged war would bring to Imperial citizens. I feel like he would see joining Chaos as an opportunity to not only throw off a Tyrant (he did view the Emperor as a Giant Slave Owner) but also as a way to perhaps quickly end it all by joining the Emperor's favorite son. Of course, we won't know, because the Butcher's Nails forever to a pin (pun intended) in what Angrons true potential or character would be.
The moment Jimmy saw what had been done to Angron, he knew that his boy was damaged goods. E made the decision on the spot to get whatever use out of Angron that he could, before inevitably discarding him. I think that explains a LOT about why Angron's first meeting was handled so crassly.
As to the above average aggression of warhound recruits, it might well be that big E wasn't sure how much Angron's genes would influence them. Particularly aggressive individuals would be less likely to show compassion to their foes, if his gift were to partially manifest in them.
Angron seems more like a mirror of Russ. Both are vicious killers who tame ferocity with honor and nobility. The big scary dogs that will attack your enemies and care for the family. Though it isn't often mentioned, the Space Wolves are actually very considerate of normal human life. In another version of this universe the Space Wolves and War Hounds would likely have started out all bravado towards one another leading to the legions becoming close enough you could see one abandoning a battlefield to save the other at great personal cost.
Part of me thinks that Roboute Guilliman hinted by his darker side was supposed to land on Nuceria while Angron was supposed to land on Ultramar, Roboute Guilliman was supposed to become a cold warlord who was supposed to be the Emperor's warlord while Angron was supposed to be here for his brothers, maybe perhaps other Primarchs had their homeworlds swapped as well? Maybe perhaps other Primarchs were also supposed to land on other worlds? I'm looking at Konrad Curze here and Perturabo alongside 2 missing Primarchs, maybe Perturabo was meant to land on world of Nostromo and Konrad on Olympia. Or am i talking out of my backdoor here?
All the big e needed to do was for A. to leave a unit of soldiers to help out angron's brothers and that would have made him very loyal, well that and also remove the nails.
Loyalty was the Warhounds legacy that broke them. Angrons loyalty to the pit fighter slaves and the Emperor stole him away from helping them. His marines didn't have a homeworld like most Legions, and even tho they came from dozens of worlds/traditions/creeds they had a unity of spirit unmatched. All the other Legions came to them to fight in the pits and learn the bonds of brotherhood from the warhounds long before Angron was found. It was nails that broke them, in their Loyalty to their knew primarch they wanted to know his past/pain and reasons to fight.
I've always thought that the glimpse of the pre nails Angron doesn't match the back story of the pre nails War Hounds. The World Eaters/War Hounds were described in the Forge World book as always aggressive and yet they had been implanted with Angram's geneseed from before the nails they should have had behavioural traits of Angron before the nails but they were never given that back story which was an error from GW and FW for me.
The more I learn of the consequences of Emperor's mistakes; the stealing of Angron's honorable death, the disciplining of Lorgar and Word Bearers, the destruction of Thunder Warriors... all these terrible miscalculations and the shear unbridled callousness... As the last priest of Terra said to The Emperor after Him proclaiming that His intentions were for the best of humanity, I feel compelled to repeat his words "I think you do, but I'll have no part in it."
I think he was meant to become that Honorable yet immovable Beserker. A hammer for every situation under a cool head. The very manifestation of a vanguard, the one to crash into every formation with Emperor's fury
I always believed Angron was ultimately a very empathetic being - why he could not accept being stolen from Nuceria rather than allowed to die with his comrades. He was always to be ferocious, but in defense or necessary offense, a guard dog, a watch keeper, a protector more than an aggressor. I think that shows in his motivations, in how the way chaos corrupted him to a spirit of wrath as likely to kill allies as goes is such a perfect corruption. It also shows in the way the pre-Angron Dusk Raiders fought - giving the enemy all day to surrender then doing the necessary work, and the measured, loyal character of Kharn before the nails (and Erebus) did their work.
He just doesn't want to feel other's pain anymore. He'd rather live in agony, that's why the emp never forced a patch. He also knows how to be so angry you never again want to share another's pain.
The butchers nails never represented something extra added and done that brings something that doesnt exist before. Instead it is the rage that exists in every highly emotional person. Storywise it does not need to exist. His anger is perfectly explained by the trauma of his life. The emotional need for protecting is mirrored by the emotional need for revenge, and for dealing with the stress of emotions. In a way Angron is the classical feminine, he is Boudicca who takes revenge on the romans, or Demeter who both nurtures mankind with summer and harvest, and destroys the whole world with snow and ice.
What if tzinch manipulated the eldar visions to have them attack him because if he was able to reach his potential along with Vulcan they would be able to keep the heresy from happening because the bonds they could form between all the primarchs and help them overcome any issues they’d have with each other like if angron could take away pain etc imagine what he could do for curze like if he could HEAL his insanity that’d be crazy
Angron was made to be a perfect guard dog. One that would walk around the fence and rip the throat out of any intruders and ten minutes later let little children ride on its back
That.
That's actually pretty damn accurate.
you havent read his book then, angron was made the way he was by the nails. edit probably made worse by the emperor who refused him the opportunity to save what was left of his people on nuceria and just kinda left him with his legion who he had no attachment to pretty sad story really
@@montaguegray7486 yes I have read the book. The butcher’s nails made him more violent and less empathetic but even without them he is still a primarch. He was literally created for violence. I fail to see how your comment has any impact on my analogy whatsoever.
@@montaguegray7486 Typical people in this community misunderstanding everything and failing to understand how to read. Angron was always made to be a killer. A vicious brutal killer. However, he was also supposed to symbolize the bond of brotherhood and empathy. He was supposed to be the ultimate big brother of the primarchs. One who would teach you, look out for you, help you, and also kick other people’s ass if they messed with you. The nails took most of that away and just left him with the vicious brutal killer part.
Very much on the noes, you can see the loyalty even though the nails when the emperor takes him away from his gladiator companions. He would rather die with them, then live to take revenge or finish what they started. His loyalty was to his comrades and them alone.
Angron could have surpassed Leman Russ as a warrior king. He could have been one of nobelest of primarchs. Despite the butchers nails, Angron had the ability to see through a lot of bs of the other primarchs. He even called the other primarchs out for their bs. Even in his broken state he was highly emphatic. Maybe because of this he suffered so much from the butchers nails. Angron himself said, the Emperor should have granted him a heroes death. Because Angron knew he was broken beyound healing.
I seem to recall Angron himself declaring himself as dead, for who he was meant to be died among his brothers and sisters of the gladiator pits.
@@wispfire2545 Yeah and he never saw his own legion as brothers or sons.
This.
He also refused to have them removed when Lorgar thought he could help him.
Angron was very intelligent and emphatic, but he ended up chasing the serenity of bloodshed and butchery to appease the butchers Nails
@wispfire2545 "angron died on those sands with his true kin. A shell is all you will get. The ghost of angron." I know I quoted it but idk if it's fully accurate. It's very close though.
He was supposed to be the most compassionate , a hero of the common people .
This is where it gets so confusing for me because that’s what I thought Corvax was.
@@Maidez09 it's been confirmed that there was supposed to be a decent amount of overlap between the Primarchs, intended redundancies I think is the term they used.
@@Maidez09 Not all of them are a single thing. They're like people, they have common morals
@@Maidez09 If you think about it , as a parent before your child is born you wish it will be smart , kind and healthy . But it also depends on how you raise your child . Angron had no adoptive parents , he was abused every day of his life . Konrad Curze also , he intended his legion to be honourable , but the Nostromo nobility only sent him criminals of the worst kind for recruits , making him despise his own sons ..
@@ElectricRavagE Angron had a fellow slave army he loved/ish and wanted to die with when The Emperor showed up. Curze had no one, he learned everything from eating the locals and watching what they do. His future was always pre-determined in his eyes, he knew The Emperor would show up, knew it would all go to s*** but went along with it all anyway (yes it's true about Nostraman nobility sending cowardly, backstabbing, criminals as recruits) but he knew it would happen. Even marked out a few he liked for their future deeds (Telos)
The Emperors reaction when he found Angron sums it up. The fact that he was shocked at what Angron had turned into really tells us of what the emperor might have intended his son to be. What I'd give to see Angron's true nature without the nails. Truelly, he could've been the most compassinate of Primarchs rivaling even that of Vulkan. He would even be more likable not only amongst his brothers but also to his very own sons. Everytime i hear his story it is indeed tragic.
what i thought that angron was suppose to be was the therapist . the reason why was that it would help new plaints to cope with the information if being under the imperium's rule. this would also have the added affect of fighting chaos with out even lifting a finger as to under stand ones self can help reject the chaos gods influence.
He was supposed to help forge the family bonds not break them! I imagine Angron sitting down with Lorgar, Konrad, and Pertarabo trying to help with there issues maybe even fixing them
I would've loved to see that.
Angron, Primarch of the Warhounds (not World Eaters, because if this is an Angron who was possibly discovered and aided by the Emperor before the Butcher's Nails incident, and led a successful revolution against the Nucerian High Riders which freed all slaves, including his surrogate father, then Angron would have no reason to change his Legion's name). Inside an elegant but peaceful courtyard of the Imperial Palace, Angron sits with his brother Horus Lupercal, on the latter's promotion to Warmaster. Horus speaks in detail about his own doubts, how he believes Sanguinius and Guilliman were better choices than he is, and elaborates on his feelings of distrust on why his Father would not reveal to him his plans on Terra, to which Angron points out that their Father chose him because he represents the best in all his brothers, their Father, and all Mankind, whether Horus realizes it or not. Angron further explains that being Warmaster had nothing to do with how well you fight or lead; being the Warmaster makes you the representative of all Mankind and the traits that make Man unique. Horus embodies those wondrously beautiful traits, and can bring the very same out of all those around him. Furthermore, Angron explained his beliefs that it is not for the Primarchs to know what the Emperor is doing, but to take comfort in knowing that what He is working on is for the ultimate benefit of the Imperium, of all Mankind, and that it was best for the Primarchs to not know, for it was for their protection as well. And a great father will always protect and care for his children to the end.
And it was in that very moment that History was changed forever. For as Horus was filled with a renewed sense of faith and courage, Angron had forever denied the Ruinous Powers their greatest champion, and their only hope in preventing the Anathema from bringing order and peace to a war-torn galaxy.
@@muttproductions2536 Horus is an interesting one but I am very interested on what he would say to Magnus, Pertarabo, and Konrad.
@@steffanyschwartz7801 I'm pretty sure Angron would be going through each and every Primarch who would take part in the Heresy. Konrad is perhaps the most obvious as he has more mental baggage than any head shrink is qualified to handle, with the exception of T4S Alucard.
Magnus and Perturabo would be interesting, but perhaps another one that could use help more than those two, but not as much as Horus would probably be Lorgar, as the destruction of Monarchia screwed with him as much as, if not more than the burning of Prospero messed with Magnus.
Idk dude, the rapist role went to Fulgrim
Angron was meant to represent the Emperor's "Pity" and "Compassion".
Which is why the Butcher's Nails did so much damage. They dragged him in the other direction.
that is what we call tragic
@@howdareyouexist - The BEST of things, usually have a place in the WORST of things...
I've always thought Angron and the 12th were intended to be desperate defense fighters akin to Vulkan and the salamanders. Taking despair and hurt and sorrow and channeling it into a fiery and unyielding spirit of war meant to inspire his men and the Imperium. The impassioned fury of humanity in the darkest hour.
Instead, the Emperor found a scarred, and broken Angron, one who would almost certainly never fulfill the destiny the Emperor had planned. The grief and pain at the loss of losing such a noble son (And the fear of losing him fully) is what causes the emperor to refuse Angrons requests to help the slaves of Nuceria, in addition to the other logistical reasons theorists usually give.
One of the things I find most compelling about this theory is that it plays directly into the tragedy of Angrons story. The Emperor fears to lose Angron and let's that fear cloud his judgment and make the mistake that truly costs him his son.
There's also a slight flaw in Big E's feelings towards his son. If he so much as so loved his son, why couldn't he given his son the aid that he desperately needed. In a "What If" scenario, the Emperor sent forth the 12th legion to aid their primarch's fight against the slavers of Nuceria. Although hesitant at first at such aid, Angron probably saw that his sons were ready to die for his cause even though he only just saw him first for the first time. It would certainly lessen the friction between Angron and his sons but ultimately, we all know what really happened.
The problem I see with this theory is even before he was reunited with his sons and renamed them the World Eaters, they were as the War Hounds already the most savage and brutal of the legions. Its suggested for their original founding on Terra they recruited only the most aggressive individuals they could find from across Terra, and their gene-seed did nothing to temper that savagery. Every other legion showed psychological quirks similar to their primarchs even before their gene fathers were found and recovered, and all the War Hounds had ever displayed was pure violent ferocity. This very much feels like a case of GW trying to redefine the World Eaters as a less one-dimensional legion, but struggling to do so because they haven't left themselves much wiggle room with how they'd previously described and portrayed the legion.
Not that I'm against a more nuanced and interesting Angron, I just feel like without retcons there's little they can do to develop his character at this point.
@MattManLie What? logistical reasons? who theorized that? wasn't a damn thing stopping the emperor from pancaking nuceria and everyone on it with minimal effort
@@Ishkaga02 i don't know where i heard it or what book it's from but i remember a story about "The War Hounds" being told to take a city and when the rest of the Imperial forces caught up they asked where the prisoners was and the War Hounds responded "prisoners?" 50/50 i heard it from Arch but not sure
Lame.
Just to illustrate how foolish the Eldar can be. They probably had some scary vision and instead of attempting to rescue, keep an eye on the child, or even raise him (far fetched I know) they try to destroy Angron, and thus fulfilling the vision that they were so scared of. Thanks Farseers, you really know what you're doing
imagine an angron raised by eldar, would be insane
There is some hint that the Eldar were actually Dark Eldar. The Slave of Nuceria book describes them as almost like Hellions
@@danielmcelwain6841 dude you’re absolutely right I do now recall that they were described as more menacing
In a way I can see some world eaters having a sliver of Angrons power, like their Librarious who helped control Angron during his bouts of rage, and Kharn who in a way was Argel Tals consular and Sigismunds. A theory is that they were very aggressive because they absorved the aggression from others onto themselves.
Imagine the relationship that could have been had between an untainted Angron and Sanguinius or Vulkan...
Dude, I think that the three of them would've not only been total bros to each other, but also a truly devastating trio if their legions were matched together.
Magnus , Jagarhai and Dorn...
Of the many (and deary me, were there SO VERY MANY) flaws of the Big E, doing what he did when he reached Angron, ignoring the plight of his adopted brothers and sisters, knowingly allowing them to fall, not using his literal GODLIKE powers to deal with the nails...man oh man did Angron get the super short end of the stick. Heck, I won't be surprised if he went YOLO on the Imperium even if HH did not happen. Being furious at the Big E for allowing this to occur barely scratches the surface.
Perhaps Big E knew the Heresy was coming but not quite who would turn so he tried his best to love and nurture the ones he wanted to remain loyal while the ones he didn't care about losing as much such as Angron he treated poorly. Of course, if that's the case, then a wrench was thrown into those plans as Magnus and Horus still turned even though Big E gave them a lot of attention
Yup, he would'nt have even needed to get involved himself either. A couple hundred Custodes would have rolled over the planets leadership in a afternoon or at the least he'd have been able to evac the other slaves out of danger. I highly doubt Dorn, Guilliman, Horus or any of the other primarchs would have handled it the way The Emperor did if they had been the ones to find him, asking them to go away and let him die with his "brothers and sisters" they 100% would have deployed their legions and started handing out slaps
@@banneduser5187 Oh yeah. Any of the primarchs (Curze included) would have handled it better than Big-E.
Even Konrad Curze. The crazier than a shit-house rat Konrad Curze.
between him and conmrad....big E fucked up bad.
@@banneduser5187 I feel like even 10 custodes could have rolled over the planets leadership in an afternoon tbf lol
He's supposed to show the Emperor what happens if he messed up with a Primarch. The Emperor failed to learn his lesson though.
The Emperor couldn’t fix Angron and had only a short span to save humanity.
Baldemort had an interesting take on the situation with angron.
Big E had either the option to let his son die or make the pragmatic choice to get some return of investment and turn angrons rage and hatred upon himself the emperor just so his son could keep going for a while longer. Even if it meant that Angron could turn traitor easily.
i think it´s a good father vs ruler conflict.
The Emperor including a sacrificial son is believable. Doing so to keep himself humble? That's less believable.
Im convinced he was meant to be the most empathetic of the primarchs, the primary diplomat in terms of politics and the healer in terms of war, that was why Angron had the ability to take away other gladiator kids pain and why it hurt him so much to kill for the first time as well as why the Emperor treated him so coldly.
When he arrived at Nuceria he likely expected to find the most human of his sons, someone he would finally be able to voice his compassion and possibly even guilt to but found someone who'd had his true nature twisted by the butchers nails into basically being a less useful version of Leman, the strength and military capabilities of a primarch with their personality and unique features stripped away. As such he saw him as a broken toy, someone only useful to him in a pragmatic "how many xenos can i kill with this thing" way not in the creation of a new civilization.
I have to wonder if, to a certain degree, if we assume he was meant to help bring the family together, for that reason alone, he was a primary target for the Chaos gods to be corrupted.
Rho! I think you should do this for every Primarch. Going through what we can understand from what they were supposed to be, and then comparing it to what they are and became. I think that would be really interesting and could add more depth to the Primarchs on your channel!
In one of the books about Guilliman's revival wasn't there some mention of a lot of people saying "Guilliman is the most human of the Primarchs?" And the reason we're told Vulcan has this compasion for humans is his close relationship with his adopted father. Guilliman also having that close relationship with both his adopted parents as well. All I'm saying is I don't think we need to see Angron as being the other compassionate Primarch. There already seems to be a candidate. Still I suppose you could say that was all nurture not nature.
Well, Angron did actually have a close relationship with his adopted older brother/father figure - Oenomaus. He also, after the nails mind you, had such a bond with his brothers and sisters in slavery that he literally cut open his own veins to keep them running on his own blood
War Hounds/World Eaters/Angron really seems like GW was approaching them from the perspective of "Insane Berserker Chaos Marines" first, and their uncorrupted form being secondary. Almost as if GW really didn't care what they were before they were Chaos Marines and didn't really want to make an effort to explain their Corruption. "Yeah, they liked to murderize everything for the Emperor, then Chaos came around and said "You can murderize EVERYTHING now if you say "Blood for the Blood God!" first." and the World Eaters went "Cool. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! *stabs starving orphan boy* Oh boy this feels GREAT! You should try this out, brothers!"
Then someone came along and went "Wait. That's not GrimDark. That's just... lazy. It's not Dark, it's not Grim, it's just Lazy. Let's fix that." and now we've got a truly GrimDark fall of a Primarch who could have been amongst the most Noble of the Primarchs, and a Legion who was once Exceedingly Violent, yes, but Honourable and entirely committed to their Brotherhood. And the two sides of the Lore don't mesh well yet. Fingers crossed the new Codex can fix that.
you do realize that that is how the horus heresy story was developed, yes? Originally the chaos marines were just the spikey and evil counterpart to imperial marines. It wasn't until the horus heresy books kicked off that they were developed into more than that. originally the horus heresy wasn't at all fleshed out and just some background myth brought up by lore snippets here and there. There was no comprehensive pre heresy lore until then.
@@TheRealKoltoroc Yup, pretty much.
@@jimmysmith2249 I think if you can tell a Wolf of Fenris from Fooking Horus, you can see how "fixed" things are.
As with all the traitor legions.
You do make a good point.
A lot of that early 40k writing was overly simplified and dumb at times.
He could eat dreams in Nuceria..
He followed up by eating the dreams, cities, worlds of other people. And his own sons. And generally anything that couldn't snap him in half like Perturabo or Hyperion ;)
I think he was meant to be what Sanguinius was, and Sanguinius was meant to be what he was.
Maybe it's not what the Big E but Khorne most definitely wanted Sanguinius to be in Angron's current position
It’s like if sanguinius did a dexterity build and angron a strength build
Yeah in the blood angels horus heresy books Sanginius himself said, he was never the primarch of the noble cause. In reality not Angron was the primarch of rage but Sanginius. Kharn once said Angron was broken beyound healing. He was so broken that he lost his psionic atattachment to his own legion. Kharn said, the best cause of for Angron would have been to be killed in a last battle against his enslavers. The pre heresy World Eaters were basically like the blood angels. But then then the roles reversed later. Because before the blood angels found their primarch they were extremly unstable and went berserk all the time.
@@Navinor the current timeline day sons of Sanguinius are extremely unstable and go berserk all the time. Well before the Devastation Of Baal anyway, think there's only a couple thousand first borns left in the galaxy now. Dante however is a f-ing specimen, imo best space marine to ever live (sure sigismund would kick his ass in a 1v1 easily but he could do never do what dante has) sigismund was a life ender, dante is a saviour
@@banneduser5187 Yes, the blood angels are in the end their gene fathers sons. Despite being the aspect of rage, Sanginius always tried to be as calm as possible. He never encouraged the Blood Angels to give in into the red thirst. After his death, the blood Angels had to fight with the black rage on top of that too. Because of this they are always fighting the urge to become mindless berserkers. The sad thing with the World Eaters is the way they tried to get closer to their Primarch. Kharn said, because Angron was broken, he could not make the typical psionic link with his legion which others primarchs had not a problem with. Even Night Haunter who hated his Legion, could keep the Night Lords in check only by his presence. This was intendet by the gene cults who worked for the Emperor. So the World Eaters destroyed their own brains with the butchers nails to be closer to their primarch.
To my guess his role would be very similar to that of leman Russ but the difference being that of a guard dog vs a wild wolf considering that the name of his legion was the was war hounds. Every primarch for the most part had a similar brother with a slight differences. Rogal and perty Corvus and konrad etc I imagine that he was going to be the noble wrath of the emperor the wrath of good man is for more terrifying then a selfish wrath.
Yeah Angron would have been one of the most nobles primarchs. Basically the pinnacle of a warrior king. The best mix out of Leman and Sanginius. Beating generals in 1vs 1 duels to make sure more bloodshed could be avoided.
Love the idea of this Angron. A more therapeutic Primarch sounds amazing
As far as I see it, Angron represents the Emperors compassion. He was highly empathetic. The nails forced him to experience pain , suffering, rage to such a intense degree, that he is now unable to relate to the suffering of everyday people... Oh the tragedy.
I'm surprised no one has made a comparison of Angron to John Coffey from the Green Mile. The ability to take the suffering of others onto himself and dispel it away.
Great comparison 👍 (even though from a visual perspective, John Coffey could easily be a double for Vulkan instead 🙂)
my fav Primark and my fave legion thank you for giving me man some love
Maybe he was supposed to be the soul of the Primarchs since Vulkan is the heart. Especially given that people originally considered Angron the strongest because of his rage whereas Vulkan was the strongest but held back due to not wanting to hurt his brothers.
I don't think we will ever know what Angron would of been like without the brutality he endured on Nuceria and without 'The Nails' but I like to think he could of been alot like the Horus of The Great Crusades, The Horus before the moon of Davin and his fall to Chaos!
Agree. He was twisted far beyond his original self by the nails
I like his Dornian Heresy as what he could have been like. He became a mix of Corvus Corax and the Lion.
this was something i theorized that Angron was made to be his familial love; you could look to the book 'Betrayer' near the end he becomes a Big brother to the world eaters. The nails were what destroyed him but that's what made me really like him as a character.
Great episode. You have amazing insight. Similar episodes on other traitor primarchs would be greatly appreciated. Like Mortarion.
I still have to read some of the books. But, I've got some theories about a few other Primarchs based on what I know about them so far. The 40k universe has so much room for lore, that it seems like most anything could be plausible.
Amazing video. It really brought back my thoughts on the matter, when I was reading Slave of Nuceria. I agree with all of your points and I would also like to add that his sons sacrificed themselves to come closer to him. To understand his pain. Their apothecaries also were some of the best of the Legionis Astartes and their Librarians also displayed similar empathic psychic powers ( as described in the excellent novel Betrayer)... Your idea of a Spartan/Greek Hoplite kind of Brotherhood also occured to me , especially when about Captain Mago and his company. You should make a video of this excellent story if you haven't already done it!!! Thank you very much for your video!!!🙏🙏🙏
In reality he was the secret primarch of the angry marines.
"Always angry! All the time!"
That battle cry describes Angron so well.
@@simbriant Exactly 🤣
Every Primarch is an aspect of war. I think Angron was meant to be the aspect of Rebellion, or a Freedom Fighter.
Angron's unique power of empathy would've made him more connected to the suffering of the weak around him, and he'd have fought on their behalf with all the rage he's known for.
He already hates tyrants and his backstory on Nuceria was all rebellion and camaraderie between slaves.
He's literally Spartacus.
I really do think that they should've fleshed out Angron's rebellion a lot more.
Maybe with it being like a mix of Spartacus meeting the Yellow Turban Rebellion, but due to some Nails and a betrayals or something, it ends up falling apart.
He's actually supposed to mirror Sanguinius very closely, with a more down to earth Vulkan personality. And while im sure people will argue, that's going off the brotherhood thing and the legion issue which Angron was supposed to fix. Each legion had an issue btw, one their Primarchs fixed.
The World Eaters had an issue with auxiliary casualties.
Why Angron was supposed to be a mirror to Sanguinius, is because he is quite literally compared to him in every way including his rage. We take away the rage, he is still compared to be "as beautiful as Sanguinius" by Kharn. Assuming ofc he didn't grow up the way he did, and grew up the way Emps wanted him to. If we stick with the general real world location he is pulled from, he is supposed to be a Marcus Aurelius figure. A man beloved by the people, hard as nails and willing to give all his power away to the people. Humble.
The issue with that ofc, is that normal, Un-Nailed Angron would have rebelled anyways due to his speech to Russ. Angron, assuming his personality and out look remain the same, would have seen the whole Imperium as slavery and just rebelled.
The warhounds were always big on martial prowess even before angron, so angrons compassion was probably more about him than what he was meant for.
The picture of Angron portrayed at the beginning here is hilarious.
would be fantastic if angron was the one that gets redeemed. Big E uses warp powers to change him from the red monster he is, into the *red angel* that he would become, free of the nails as he went demon form so the change would of healed him. which is why Lohgar did it...right? it would kind of make sense in the terms of Big E since he could use his new terms of enslavement as a way of turning his previous issues into loyalty and fix past mistakes.
match - vulcan buuuuut angron and the khan would make a interesting team up. i kinda want a short story of them fighting orcs on some world togather, angron being the anvil and khan the hammer.
I'd like to make special note of the World Eaters' Psyker detachment in Betrayer who were able to create, maintain and hold a Psychic hivemind capable of coaxing ANGRON out of his rages while in the middle of a battle. If not for thr sensitivity of the Butcher's Nails I think we could reasonably speculate the War Hounds/World Eaters mightve become Telepath capable of rivaling the Psychic might of the Blood Angels or White Scars. A hypothetical War Hounds successor would more than likely show higher rates of Empathic Psychic power given Angron's base template if it's still on file somewhere
Good take
(Well done on leaving in “if that’s even a word”! You’re good company 😊)
Love these speculative thoughtful pieces
He was meant to be like Vulcan. But I think without the nails he would have formed a special friendship with Corax as liberators and opponents of oppression.
Well, Corvus Corax and Konrad hate each other, for very different reasons than you think that Angron and Vulcan may not get along. Corax and Konrad had very little in common. Konrad was a believer in the power of terrorism, fear, torture and murder. Corax grew up under such people. He got to see what terrorists, fear and murderers did to people, and realized that was not in him. Konrad was repulsed by his brother, because he saw his brother as weak. A preaching weakling lacking the strength to do what was necessary. Corax, on the other hand, viewed his brother as being disgusting and despicable, because of his tyrannical ways, the fact that he was a psychopathic murderer, and placed no value on life. One believed that the best way to protect Humanity was to cow it into submission, while the other believed that the best way to protect Humanity was to interpose his body between the strong and the weak. I think you're confusing post butcher's nails Angron, with pre. The personality that you see now in Angron is not his true personality. This is a personality that is scarred and distorted beyond recognition by a lifetime of trauma, and torture, and relentless, unspeakable pain and anguish, starting from early childhood. The real Angron was a man that believed in charity and compassion, to the deepest parts of his soul, unlike his so-called "father", the Corpse Emperor. I think that Vulcan and Angron would get along famously, because I believe Angron represented the Corpse Emperor's non-existent trait of self-sacrifice, true compassion, patience, leadership and empathy.
Ur line about relentless unspeakable pain reminded me about the intro cinematic for soul reaver 1
Can’t really be the incarnation of something that never existed
@@doomguy9049 I was thinking along very similar lines.
@@RobouteGuilliman-M41 yeah I figured lol
👹🤝👹
Corax literally said he saw Kurze as a twisted mirror image of himself...
I loved the angron Primarch book it was tragic.I loved the part when he found that he could take away the pain and dispair of others just by touching them,take it into himself and disperse it etc.... amazing
" Angron, calm down. "
- famous last words
Angron was a traiteur, the way he calmed people simply by laying hands or speaking to them.
Perturabo was the ruthless drill sergent you follow because he got the victory even in the bleakest battlefield, Guilliman was the one you trusted to plan to maximize the effectiveness of your teamwork, Russ was the one who challenged you to one up him in glories of battle, the Lion out of knightly virtue and composure, but Angron was meant to be the empath that was in the trenches with you, sharing your burdens and inspiring true comradery. When his purpose was corrupted, he inverted those gifts, because making people feel alone (Russ demonstrated they had zero teamwork), unsafe, expendable and cornered created the perfect conditions to provoke his rage, as well as those of his sons. The nails forced him to twist how those gifts developed to guarantee his survival.
Rho: Which primarch do you think Angron was truly supposed to mirror.
Pretty much everyone: Vulkan.
But I do honestly think that an untainted Angron would've at least been total bros with Vulkan.
Maybe not agreeing on everything, but actually having a brotherly love and respect for each another.
Currently reading slaves to darkness and I've heard Perty and Angron go toe to toe and Perty gives him a verbal beatdown
Slaves to Darkness is a book written in the Matt Ward style, if anything it should be retconned because it is that bad even discounting the Angron v Pert fight
This makes angorn even more tragic
I can actually see him pairing very well with Purterabo. Both legions are being sent on grilling, thankless missions against the most challenging, most dug-in enemies, with the Angron providing the empathy Purterabo needed while also providing a strong, steady presence to help keep Angrons empathy overwhelming him in the face of punishing circumstances.
What if his legion WAS hyper aggressive and uniting with their empathetic healer of a primarch would have calmed them while retaining their fury?
That’s what I thought. They needed their father to help them, they never got that father.
I like the idea of Angron being the heart of every other Primarch, he was supposed to be the shoulder you cry, the compassionate one. The complete opposite what he is now
The fact that he has the nails.... That's the torture, absorbing all the pain of everything he does. Conflicting with his beliefs.
Another point I'd make is the connection he forms with Lotara Sarrin... a human. Now don't get me wrong with the corruption that has already taken root it affected all elements of the forces under his command at this point. But... one of the themes I've really seen is the way that the authors use the connections with humans in some way connected to traitor legions to highlight the nobler aspects inherent within the philosophies and characteristics they embody. She's the kind of character you'd be rooting for in a guard or navy novel. Absolutely loyal and a total fearless badass. The fact that in the middle of the heresy, as he's being completely taken by the madness of the nails... and he took to her and empathized with her. That's... a situation even Vulkan would struggle to be empathetic in.
Someone on a thread wrote that angron without the nails if he reached his potential couldve become a viable candidate if not warmaster and after reading everything I could find on pre-nails angron I really see it
Just pointing out that your theory makes sense from the legions behavior in taking on the butcher's nails to have a closer connection with their primarch.
What I also think will be interesting is what kind of Chaos primarch he will be in the Lore.
Personally I would like him to be a little like his pre heresy self.
A mindless raging monster would in my mind be boring.
Sure by all means let him be a close combat monster, but let him also be a tactical genius.
Insted of attacking that huge city or army.
He instead would attack supply lines ammo depos and such, so that when he does attack that army instead of being cut to ribbons by the enemies Guns and canons.
He can get right into their face, since his enemies have run out of ammo and are low on supplies.
I'd like to see a warhammer 40K timeline where all the primarchs were raised by the Emperor, or at least loyal.
The Empire is a peaceful utopia covering the whole galaxy. Humanity is at least happy and in peace. The End
@@andresperedo1275 Save for probably the Necrons and tyranids but i imagine its fine
He was made to be a noble warrior and a champion of the Imperium. His keen empathy and intellect would sniff out betrayal in his ranks or his brothers, and his strength of arm would root it out. He could have mirrored with Ferrus Manus, the self-sure brother who demands discipline and skill as a matter of course, discarding those who cannot keep up with his expectations, where Angron would inspire even the lowest recruit to be everything they can be.
I would love to see an utterly ruthless but empathic primarch/legion that would be so wholesomely bloody
Having a leader who can help soldiers with their pain would be great. Yes the legion had horrific battles but they had a leader who they all believed in, helped them all
I'll say that I always read Angron as embodying loyalty but I could also see mercy, before the nails.
Angron is the most tragic of the primarchs, the saddest “what could have been”. For a good view of what Angron should have been (and what Kharn should have been) is a chapter in “Imperium Ascendent” fanfiction. I highly recommend it !
Thank you dearly.
Imagine, if you can, a legion of space marines that were fueled by emotions, yet not consumed by them. The suffering of innocents inspires righteous fury, the presence of fellows brings seamless precision, and being deployed with other legions is seen as a boon for front line coordination and legendary apothecaries.
A.G.
Angron and the War Hounds/World Eaters are easily becoming my favorite thing about 40k, i think its the most tragic fall of them all, a heartbreaking tale of wasted potencial
Will, perseverance, strive forward and honour.
I think he was always destined for a military purpose, but was supposed to be the sergeant to Horus's Warmaster, a warrior that would ensure the well-being and discipline of the soldiers of the Imperium, the Frontline hero that could inspire with his deeds on the battlefield but also would show his deep care for those around him. Instead he was rabid dog barely held on by a breaking chain.
I think he mirrors Konrad Curze most closely. Both primarchs are clearly broken from the beginning, Angron by the Nails, Kurze apparently by his farseeing - although it's not clear why he would become so sadistic because of that. They go on to be monsters, and lead legions of monsters, even in the Crusade, long before the Heresy.
I could see this concept of overlapping Vulkan's compassion as the dominant feature. The idea of selfless sacrifice in defense of man of the extreme that Vulkan and the Salamanders are known for might have been somewhat mirrored in the sort of almost suicidal last stand kind of methods for ending a fight in defense of man. Even the flavor of being more savage from Forge World could plausibly make sense in that frame, with Angron being able to help people shake the pain of those non-space marines who need his help because of what they had to do to survive or whatever.
I'd love to see a what if series like marvel where all the primarchs followed the emperor or fell to chaos. Would be very interesting!
I wonder if the Heresy would even start if Angron was like he was intended to be. He could've been with Lorgar when the Emperor humiliated him. He could've been with Curze, giving him a short time of peace and clarity to think. He could've opened eyes to Perturabo or Horus. Of course, it's a little optimistic view - primarchs were always busy with war, scattered in different parts of the Galaxy and rarely communicated with each other. But still, potential was there. Though I never thought I would imagine Angron like an emotional support dog
The war hounds legion have a strong sense of brotherhood, I think this would go hand in hand with Angron’s abilities to heal. Creating a legion along the lines of the salamanders. Except, maybe less pro human at all cost. Abs more get the job done and respect Humans
I like the comparison to ancient Sparta, because Spartan warriors actually wore their hair in dreadlocks as part of their military uniform, and the Butcher's Nails are basically techno-dreads.
I don't... the Spartans were absolutely brutal slavers. Angron hated slavers.
(like, even for the time I mean. They held a Purge every year... and encouraged the slaves to turn on each other to "eliminate the weak")
I feel the fact kharn would be the only one to calm him shows the empathy of his legion.
The part that always annoyed me was that they couldn't figure how to remove those stupid nails after they retrieved agron. This is 30k pre-corpse emperor with the help of all 18 primarchs. But nope. It's just beyond them.
I forget, but weren't the Nails some sort of technological remnant or holdover from the Dark Age of Technology? If so, that would explain how the Imperium, even at its height, couldn't get them out as Dark Age Tech was vastly superior.
Honestly I see Angron as being the paragon of brotherhood.
Look at his (former) librarius, they seem to specialise in communal psychic powers.
Before they were slaughtered, they seemed to foster a sense of community that slowly degraded once they were gone.
Source, the book where Lorgar and Angron are burning Gullimans worlds. The shadow crusade I think?
I just had an idea, what if he was made to fight with the blood angels? The blood angels rage and the war hounds ability to calm the rage. They are able to fight aggressively along side the angels with calm minds. And when their angel brothers are about to fall, they can take their rage and suppress it. Man, now that would be a buzzsaw combo. Maybe that’s why the emperor was so depressed when he saw angron. Not only was he ruined but also ruined the rage of blood angels.
The problem I see with this theory is even before he was reunited with his sons and renamed them the World Eaters, they were as the War Hounds already the most savage and brutal of the legions. Its suggested for their original founding on Terra they recruited only the most aggressive individuals they could find from across Terra, and their gene-seed did nothing to temper that savagery. Every other legion showed psychological quirks similar to their primarchs even before their gene fathers were found and recovered, and all the War Hounds had ever displayed was pure violent ferocity.
I love that Angron and Lorgar were closest to each other out of all the primarchs. The two brothers the Emperor most wronged and who were ostracized by their brothers forming a bond is strangely wholesome for Warhammer.
The way I see it, is that the Nails just sped up what as ultimately going to be his fate, anyways. If the Emperor did give him this psychic empathy, just think of the guy from the movie the Green Mile. He constantly took on other people's pain, and he kept saying "I'm tired, Boss. Of people being ugly to each other. Of hurting each other. "
I feel like Angron would eventually fall to Chaos anyways because he would feel the pains of torture that prolonged war would bring to Imperial citizens. I feel like he would see joining Chaos as an opportunity to not only throw off a Tyrant (he did view the Emperor as a Giant Slave Owner) but also as a way to perhaps quickly end it all by joining the Emperor's favorite son.
Of course, we won't know, because the Butcher's Nails forever to a pin (pun intended) in what Angrons true potential or character would be.
I got all teary eyed and then cried when I read he could take their pain so the slaves could sleep
The moment Jimmy saw what had been done to Angron, he knew that his boy was damaged goods. E made the decision on the spot to get whatever use out of Angron that he could, before inevitably discarding him.
I think that explains a LOT about why Angron's first meeting was handled so crassly.
As to the above average aggression of warhound recruits, it might well be that big E wasn't sure how much Angron's genes would influence them. Particularly aggressive individuals would be less likely to show compassion to their foes, if his gift were to partially manifest in them.
That picture solves the mystery. Angron is actually Sweet Tooth.🍦🍧
Angron seems more like a mirror of Russ. Both are vicious killers who tame ferocity with honor and nobility. The big scary dogs that will attack your enemies and care for the family. Though it isn't often mentioned, the Space Wolves are actually very considerate of normal human life. In another version of this universe the Space Wolves and War Hounds would likely have started out all bravado towards one another leading to the legions becoming close enough you could see one abandoning a battlefield to save the other at great personal cost.
Angron was meant to be a primarch of compassion. His bond with Lotara Sarrin is an absolute proof to that.
Part of me thinks that Roboute Guilliman hinted by his darker side was supposed to land on Nuceria while Angron was supposed to land on Ultramar, Roboute Guilliman was supposed to become a cold warlord who was supposed to be the Emperor's warlord while Angron was supposed to be here for his brothers, maybe perhaps other Primarchs had their homeworlds swapped as well?
Maybe perhaps other Primarchs were also supposed to land on other worlds?
I'm looking at Konrad Curze here and Perturabo alongside 2 missing Primarchs, maybe Perturabo was meant to land on world of Nostromo and Konrad on Olympia.
Or am i talking out of my backdoor here?
All the big e needed to do was for A. to leave a unit of soldiers to help out angron's brothers and that would have made him very loyal, well that and also remove the nails.
Loyalty was the Warhounds legacy that broke them. Angrons loyalty to the pit fighter slaves and the Emperor stole him away from helping them. His marines didn't have a homeworld like most Legions, and even tho they came from dozens of worlds/traditions/creeds they had a unity of spirit unmatched. All the other Legions came to them to fight in the pits and learn the bonds of brotherhood from the warhounds long before Angron was found. It was nails that broke them, in their Loyalty to their knew primarch they wanted to know his past/pain and reasons to fight.
I've always thought that the glimpse of the pre nails Angron doesn't match the back story of the pre nails War Hounds.
The World Eaters/War Hounds were described in the Forge World book as always aggressive and yet they had been implanted with Angram's geneseed from before the nails they should have had behavioural traits of Angron before the nails but they were never given that back story which was an error from GW and FW for me.
The more I learn of the consequences of Emperor's mistakes; the stealing of Angron's honorable death, the disciplining of Lorgar and Word Bearers, the destruction of Thunder Warriors... all these terrible miscalculations and the shear unbridled callousness... As the last priest of Terra said to The Emperor after Him proclaiming that His intentions were for the best of humanity, I feel compelled to repeat his words "I think you do, but I'll have no part in it."
I would buy a whole 10 volume book collection on just the primarchs talking to one another. Vulkan and angron talking would be neat
He would probably be the Emperor's athletics champion, especially in the bench press section.
I think he was meant to become that Honorable yet immovable Beserker. A hammer for every situation under a cool head. The very manifestation of a vanguard, the one to crash into every formation with Emperor's fury
I always believed Angron was ultimately a very empathetic being - why he could not accept being stolen from Nuceria rather than allowed to die with his comrades.
He was always to be ferocious, but in defense or necessary offense, a guard dog, a watch keeper, a protector more than an aggressor.
I think that shows in his motivations, in how the way chaos corrupted him to a spirit of wrath as likely to kill allies as goes is such a perfect corruption. It also shows in the way the pre-Angron Dusk Raiders fought - giving the enemy all day to surrender then doing the necessary work, and the measured, loyal character of Kharn before the nails (and Erebus) did their work.
Dusk Raiders were the Death Guard...
@@kelman727 yep, I messed up.
TBH, the War Hounds kinda back up my core point even better so I'm even more annoyed at that wee brain fart.
I always wondered why the emperor never had Angrons spikes removed.
Violence, torture, insanity, anger. The Emperor's other side.
He just doesn't want to feel other's pain anymore. He'd rather live in agony, that's why the emp never forced a patch. He also knows how to be so angry you never again want to share another's pain.
Angron would probably have been another 'Angel', like Sanguinius, but without the wings.
The butchers nails never represented something extra added and done that brings something that doesnt exist before. Instead it is the rage that exists in every highly emotional person. Storywise it does not need to exist. His anger is perfectly explained by the trauma of his life. The emotional need for protecting is mirrored by the emotional need for revenge, and for dealing with the stress of emotions. In a way Angron is the classical feminine, he is Boudicca who takes revenge on the romans, or Demeter who both nurtures mankind with summer and harvest, and destroys the whole world with snow and ice.
Angron was supposed to be the emperors mercy, hence the massive twist that the butchers nails gave him, at least that's always been my headcannon
What if tzinch manipulated the eldar visions to have them attack him because if he was able to reach his potential along with Vulcan they would be able to keep the heresy from happening because the bonds they could form between all the primarchs and help them overcome any issues they’d have with each other like if angron could take away pain etc imagine what he could do for curze like if he could HEAL his insanity that’d be crazy