When You Are The Best Player Ever But Not The GOAT...
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Djokovic has more Grand Slams, more Masters, more ATP Tour Finals, more year end no. 1 finishes, more weeks at no. 1, a better head-to-head, a higher peak by measuring both players best seasons and did it all in a tougher era and with more hostile Western crowds.
"Tougher era"
Karatsev, Tsitsipas, Zverev, Thiem, Medvedev, Berrettini, Paul, Fritz, Ruud
50% of his GS are like that, the weak era argument for Djokovic fans about Federer career backfired like one great example of karma
@@Isaac-RJ "50% of his GS are like that, the weak era argument for Djokovic fans about Federer career backfired like one great example of karma"
That's a knife to the heart
Djokovic is the goat, and Federer is the toat. Talentiest of all time xD
When I watch roger federer plays, I don't even care if he win or lose, that's how great he is/was to me
I'm an heretic spaniard who rooted for Federer instead of Nadal. Federer is the player I have enjoyed tennis the most with, and although I love Nadal as he has given a lot to my country, I couldn't resist myself as Federer was not only a tennis player but an artist.
But let's get real. The Joker is the best player of all time and it is not even close.
because of the slowing condition and a lot of factors Best player of this generation but GOAT surely not
What dumb statement.you have to play what you have to play.its utter nonsense.there is nothing else they could have done except play after put forward@@cpt-r.federer5940
"and it is not even close." yeah, you lost me there
If Roger had maintained the records there would be no argument. The fact that Novak claimed clear statistical supremacy, and only then people started moving the goalposts to keep Roger on top, to me reeks of a popularity contest divorced from sport. Also classism honestly, which I think is clearly present. Novak is the goat, end of, it's not a discussion
"Classism" - Novak the representative and hero of the 3rd worlders, he is winning titles for you guys
@@Stu49583Very proud to be from"3rd world"country and have the goat in tenis and Best basketball player right now😍
100% agreed.
@@Stu49583 I always see that "Novak fans are the most toxic" but I only ever see fedal fans making racist and insulting comments like this
@@LazarCajkovic Against eurocentrism and classism djokovic is indeed an icon, some people talk about his popularity as if we live in a vaccum. The thing is with his Serbian nationality and position in the PTPA the west has never treated him without animosity
I really like this video you make opinions and thoughts whilst always deeply considering the opposing argument and respecting everyones thoughts.
Nadal had to experience both Federer and Djokovic prime during his prime and still is 21-11 up against them in Grand Slams and has won 22 grand slams and missed 18
His numbers are skewed more on clay. I do see your claim but Nadal is the greatest clay court player ever.
He plays them on clay, and ducks Novak on HC
The GTA clip was nice; overall great vid.
The GS tally as being the defining metric for GOAT status was invented by the Americans to put Sampras ahead of all the tennis greats. Borg was considered the GOAT by all, but it was Laver who held the GS record! Moreover, the reason that Federer is considered "GOAT" by the majority of tennis fans is the same reason that Brazil is everybody's second team to support whenever the World Cup is on: people adore positive, HIGHLY technical, attacking, flowing play. If Novak were a football team, he'd be Germany (highly successful, but nobody's second team). Respect is due overall
EDIT: Germany are _not_ the most technically sound, but their physical gifts, organisation, tactics and discipline ensure they're a threat, much like Djoko
Federer is the Gojo of tennis. His existence changed the game for future generations.
If you took the stats difference between Novak and Fed and made it a player it would be a career of a top 30 player of all time.
In terms of titles? Weeks at number 1? Would it not be a top 5 or top 10 player of all time?
@@ada5851 true, it would basically be andy murray
@@balsabozovic4510 Are you saying Murray ahead of Federer?
@@BOZ_11Bro. The stat difference. Novak has 24 Slams and Roger 20. That difference is 4, similar to Murray.
In my opinion nadal will always be the goat, he never had a easy time he started when federer was in his prime winning most of his gs and then novak during the end of his career, he was sandwhiched between the two other goats in the primes and still won 22, federer winning most of his gs before nadal was in his prime and djokovic winning most of his after his prime, if u could magically put them in a time machine and start the careers at the exact same time i guarantee nadal would have the most
that’s fair but I think that nadal is not as well rounded as djokovic regarding the 3 surfaces. Of course nadal is by far the best clay court player ever but he was mainly outclassed by novak in the other surfaces in h2h and results. Like the last time nadal won a set on a hard court against nole was in 2013.
but Federer was better on both hard courts and grass, than Nadal. It shows in the H2H once you break it down by surface, and of course, it shows massively in their major titles breakdown
😂😂😂😂😂
He just was the first out of the 3
to reach his ceiling but long term both novak and Federer surpassed his ceiling, the fact he was so good early doesn’t mean he exponentially got better each year, its quite the opposite. Its been more than 11 years he couldn’t beat novak outside clay lol, and Federer later in his career got the best of him compared to their earlier encounters
@mitchwhitfield1552
Facts don't care about your opinion. 😉That's why we have results, ranking, points so that it can easily be understood who is the GOAT and we don't need ant opinions. Including yours.
Until novak broke all federers records he wasnt the goat and rightfully so because of said records, now that he broke most of them new terms are being made to invalidate him and push roger above him, he won more, has winning record against both roger and nadal, while federer has won less and has losing records against both, i agree as a serb that rogers game looks WAY prettier and that hes more popular but novak is the goat and there isnt any argument against it when it comes down to actual sport
Serbs are way too invested in whether Djokovic is regarded as a goat or not. Has zero relevance on your life
It's not just his beautiful technique, on his worst day he hit twice as many winners as Novak (quantitative, not qualitative). He also hit a lot more errors, but that's the trade-off; you can't be a skilful attacker and keep a single digit error rate when you're going for higher risk shots. The only person today who can keep going for higher risk shots and win matches against top 20 guys, is Carlos
Roger took the 90's style of tennis and perfected it. Novak created a new and more successful style. People love Roger because they find old school, fast-paced, shotmaking tennis more entertaining than the current baseline slugfests that make up most tournaments now
Novak plays very much like Agassi, but he retains focus longer and is more athletic than Andre
If Roger came 5 years after Nadal and Novak, he wouldn't be nearly as popular. He benefitted greatly coming at the end of another great era with Sampras and Agassi. Similar to how Alcaraz and Sinner are collecting all the Federer and Nadal fans now.
@@badmanskill1112 To be frank, Novak was never going to be a force at Wimbledon if he played in the 90s (he can't serve/volley well enough)
@@BOZ_11
The presumption that Novak would have played the way he does now and not adapt to the requirements of the 90s is juvenile. Moreover, the arguments with "what if" scenarios are themselves juvenile to begin with.
It's comforting to know that whenever I want an ego boost I can always come to a fed cultist group therapy video like this to laugh at how deluded people can be.
Ralph Schumacher was one of the smoothest Formula 1 driver. The way he manealuvered the car around quick turns and kerbs, it was effortless and graceful. It's as if he is gliding in a choreographed routine than driving. But is he greater than Michael Schumacher?
Fed: better serve, forehand, net game, more skill, and won 20 slams with a one handed backhand. Fed made you look bad, Novak wore you out.
Don't forget the 90" racket for most of his career too
At least your mom agrees with you (I'll ask her tonight).
Unfortunately this topic still seems to be a thing, in all sports, we value championship titles, and strictly the big ones, for better or worse. Djokovic has the most slams, he goes down as the best. Obviously, we all can choose whomever we wish. Djokovic isn’t my favorite, but he gets the title because of his grand slams. I feel them 3 made each other better, and Djokovic had the best 2 players to try and figure out. I do feel at their best, Nadal, could beat Federer, Federer could beat Djokovic, and Djokovic could beat Nadal.
Novak is the goat. Media popularity has nothing to do here.
not media people with eyes and not fanatics
Novak is the GOAT. Federer has better marketing.
Yes it'a a personal conviction thing. For me, the GOAT would be the athlete that best represents tennis, an iconic figure that transcends generations before, current and after, and inspires people to be like him/her.
Djokovic is the goat but Federer is the most skilled and influential player ever. This is coming from a Federer fan.
Roger was considered the GOAT as soon as he reached 15 Slams and surpassed Sampras. For a decade, everyone called him GOAT. Novak Djokovic is now the undisputed greatest of all. 🇷🇸🐐👑👑👑
Best argument for Fed being the goat is the fact that he made all of those records first. He didn't chase anyone and that is harder to do than breaking a record that allready exist.
5:36. Djokovic has 4 consecutive Wimbledon titles
Djokovic is the Goat. End of discussion.
I still don't agree on peak and rivalry. During 2004-2007 Roger completely dominated tennis facing players like Roddick,Hewitt,Safin (all former number ones that would have won multiple grand slams if it wasn't for him), Nadal etc. And you're considering just one season to define a period (in 2006 Fed won more titles and had a better winning % btw). Then, if you're talking about rivalry they're extremely close even with age gap. Novak defeated prime Roger (during 2006-2007) only once in their 6 meetings (16,6% win), while Fed defeated Djoker 10 times in their 28 meetings during 2011-2015 (35,7%). Even the numbers you showed demonstrate how Djokovic suffers more the presence of prime Roger given that he had to wait for the swiss to turn 30 before really starting to win. That's it.
Yeah, I agree. Roddick, Hewitt and Safin would make mincemeat of Berretini, Tsitsipas, Kygrios, Tiafoe, Ruud, Rune, etc. Peak Roger beats everyone on hard and grass; beats everyone on clay too, except for Rafa and Djoko
@@Lorix306 yeah I wish I could go back into the history and have all three enter the pros at the same time and age. It’s so hard to compare when one is rising and the other is clearly declining, albeit with moments of greatness. Prime Roger is probably the most dominant force of all time in tennis, but the numbers in the video with elo is a very strong argument, too.
Exactly what I'm talking about,thanks.
Roddick, Hewitt, and Safin were all #1's at age 20 because it was the weak era and Roger became the king of the weak era. Once Rafa and Novak peaked, Federer wilted. That's why he's #3 all time in grand slams. He was lucky he collected all those early Slams against players like Baghdatis, Gonzalez, Philippoussis, Soderling, etc.
@@badmanskill1112 Roddick, Safin and Hewitt all have winning records against Sampras, and he retired relatively young, at 32 (both McEnroe and Connors played longer). Hewitt's h2h with Agassi is even (and Agassi was making major finals until the year he retired).
Baghdatis and Philippoussis were not Roger's rivals, since he played Bagh ONCE in his entire life, and Philippoussis only once in his life across all 4 majors.
As for Soderling, Roger had been a pro longer than a decade by 2009, so what are you talking about? That man beat Rafa, at the French, before being drawn against Federer
Poor Novak got called hungry literally and figuratively 😂
I would add Rafa back into the debate. Rafa arguably had the most setbacks, facing both prime Roger and Novak, along with dozens of injuries in which he had to make insane comebacks literally every year.
And his obvious incredible runs in Roland Garros.
He has better stats than Roger, and is closer to Novak than we may think.
Can you please make a video about Rafa cause he's retiring soon?
Good discussion, and Roger is the GOAT 🎉
False goat😂😂😂😂😂
Roger 2006 was better than Nole 2015. Don’t forget that in 2015 roger was able to beat Novak in cinci by making him look like an amateur. Novak would have never beaten 2006 roger, nobody did except Rafa on clay
I can't agree with you sir, its not fair to bring up one match of the entire season as a counter argument, overall Djokovic decimated everyone in 2015 with much much higher average competition
I AM a fed fan! Only one goat Mr Djokovic
Nole is the GOAT. Obviously!
Novak winning categories are all consequence to him being better than roger in mentality. Without that roger would be better in everything
Gooooooooood night
15:40 ☝️
Muhammad Ali doesn't have the most KO's or the most titles, but he is considered the GOAT by many. Federer has done much more for tennis than anyone else.
What did Roger do for Tennis?
In his Years as the Head of the Player's Council he did nothing. Besides an Agressiv/Dominant Playing style he's done barely anything for Tennis itself.
The simple question is, suppose you want to watch an old match. Would you choose Novak over Roger ? Not me. Of course to get an impartial answer, one could check this by looking at the youtube videos of the two when they don't play each either, and see which has more views.
"...and the aura"
The Fedal cult’s desperate attempt to not call Novak Djokovic the GOAT is laughable at this point 😂
Any discussion about who is the goat doesn't make any sense. Novak Djokovic is the undisputed GOAT of tennis.
lebron James has most records than Jordan, and still we keep talking about Jordan...
Because of that mighty 2011 choke against mavs.that settle the deal.one more reason.him playing 20 + years.yet only four championship while losing 6.
dude dont be childish thats different its a team sport lebron never defeated jordan or his biggest rivals in goat debate he just had his own era
Djokovic did it in big 4 era fed was the goat he is still perfect but until djokovic did what he did. Stats are the facts 100 years from now people will show stats not feelings so based on stats they will say novak was the best if nobody wins more than him.
@@TopEveryThing-yi3py and still 6 people think that I'm right. That was not the point. Iverson always scored more points than Jordan in h2h, is Iverson better ?.
Except for less titles, less MVPs, less Finals MVPs, scoring titles, Defensive Player of the Year etc.
So, comparing peaks is comparing ELO for just one year?
Was that the only yardstick used or you just didn’t pay attention enough?
Here is my argument for Fed. It’s the same for Tiger Woods being the goat and Jordan. For a good 5 year period he was leaps and bounds above his competition. AND he had to compete with a peak Nadal on clay. If you switch Fed’s start with Novak’s start I think Fed wins more slams! GOAT!
Video is a joke, where is Bernard Tomic? Jesus. You surely have never watched tennis.
Haha nice video really, love your take on the situation!
There are more people that say Roger....
Djokovic did it in big 4 era fed was the goat he is still perfect but until djokovic did what he did. Stats are the facts 100 years from now people will show stats not feelings so based on stats they will say novak was the best if nobody wins more than him.
It is bizarre that you upload a video like this 2 days after Nadal announces retirement.
Why Nadal isnt included in this video and Federer is?
Too lopsided.
Giving “peak” to Nole makes no sense: an offensive player at its peak will always be stronger than a defensive player at its peak (ask Stan for more infos).
If that was true, Novak wouldn't have the most Grand Slams, and all the other most important records.
Nadal on clay is better than Djokovic on hard or Federer on grass.
Because of bounce.
but is the least well rounded regarding all surfaces
At 8:44 you say Djokovic has the most complete skill set and then at 8:57 you go with federer for skill set 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️.
Enough already. "Graceful" = being the GOAT? It's ludicrous. Djokovic overtook the other Big 3 members, and he did it during their prime years. And - if the Western world is willing to concede that China & India exist, Novak is the most popular player worldwide as well. Novak is the best of player of all time - and he is also th GOAT. There just isn't any doubt.
Not really Djokovic won all but 1 grandslam during Fed's 30s. Not his prime.
@@NN-zf7np So for Novak, his 30's were his prime, but for Federer not so much? Is that not a double standard? The fact is thy played eachj other plenty of times during their best years. Roger had the edge when Novak was a kid, and Novak later gained the upper hand. 27-23 head to head, which is just one of the scores of stats that make Novak the superior player lifetime.
They can thank Nadal’s injuries …
And will thank.thank god nadal had injuries😂😂😂😂😂
In an individual sport, all that matters are the victories, the titles, the records. That's why these players are training hard. That's why even legends like Big 3 were crying after a final, even if they already achieved so much in their careers. Everybody wants to be the best & everyone wants to win titles. The GOAT status in tennis is pretty obvious. In 2020 , Federer was the GOAT, in 2022 was Nadal. Since last year, is Djoker. And by far. There's no debate about that. Ofcourse, it can be debatable wich one is more popular, talented,aesthetic etc...but that's a subjective opinion. 🤷
I've always been partial to Novak, so I easily see him as the GOAT. I think he's had as much impact on the sport as Federer. Novak's been a vocal leader and has often been notorious topic on and off the court, this brings more attention to tennis. I love Fed and even Rafa but there really is no debate. People can have there sentimental favorites but its blasphemy to say anyone is the GOAT other than Novak!
Fed is a 90s pro who had to adapt to changing conditions. Novak is a fully modern baseline player and 6 years younger. Obviously, he'd surpass most stats set by Fed. What's striking to me is how much difficulty novak had in beating federer during their matches after fed crossed 30. Novak often needed fed to miss match points and f. up for him to win their closest matches.
I'd still give fed the edge in greatness and id put him squarely in number 1. I've never seen a player like Fed before or after. What he did on the court and how he played was another thing altogether.
But when it comes to the peak of the sport, i still think thats young rafa in 08-09 when he won 3 slams on 3 different surfaces beating peak Fed + the olympics. Rafa is clearly the goat of clay, but his peak young form can beat any version of novak and fed on any surface.
Feds impact on the game is unsurpassed.do you watch Djokovic now?most of us don't.....Djokovic started winning after Federer and Nadal beat up on each other for 7 years...Federer brought the type of professionalism that tennis never seen before namely competitive on any surface at any time....Fed had all the shots all the tactical skill a guy could ever have....he was the lexicon of tennis.if you tried to emulate a shot you went to see how this guy did it.Fed didn't care,he didn't pursue titles he loved tennis....he didn't love winning...he loved the game of tennis more than anyone else..that's why he is who he is
huh
Novak Djokovic is a complete player. Roger Federer never won olympic gold 🥇 and has won 1 French Open. Djokovic won 3 French Open and 1 olympic gold.
can you do a deep dive on lorenzo sonego
Novak is the GOAT, Federer is close but Novak is just better 🐐
Pains me as a Fed fan but you sir are right
Statistically yes, as player nope
@@wagsbassthank you for being real and respecful
@@Natalia-dr5lyfor me not, but is is ok to think like that
Would it be about the cultural impact if Fed was ahead in the GS count. Just the GS count. If Djokovic was ahead in every other count and just behind in the GS count. People would proclaim Fed the Goat just for that.
The cultural impact, what they did for the sport doesn't apply in my opinion to individual sports. In team sports there are way more factors in play and the goat conversation is twisted.
But in individual sports like tennis, badminton. There are no such factors.
Novak is the goat of his generation.
I grew up in the era of the big 2...Agassi and Sampras...but that being said...the greatest player ever and the goat is hands down Djokovic.
Your opinions are really well measured even though I don’t like Nole as much as you do - he is more one-dimensional imo and would never consider him to be a complete player like Fed (no weak shots). Much respect to you - you are the true goat 🥳
Novak doesn't need to be the best net-player to put away the volleys he engineers, due to his point building skill; if you get my meaning (clearly Roger is better at the net, though, in terms of racquet control)
@@BOZ_11 isn’t that kind of like saying Federer didn’t need Nole’s mental toughness because of he superior talent? I just don’t think they’re related. Superior point construction does not equate to not having great volleys or overheads. The more exceptions we give a player due to them having some great quality, the more one dimensional they become.
@@seanr.8499 I did say Roger is superior at the net. Having said that, Djoko moved his weaknesses to places where they couldn't be exploited (which is my point above). Let's just say he's two-dimensional 😁😁
Federer is the only true all court player of the big 4, and court homogenisation hid that fact to simpler fans (a shame it wasn't mentioned in the vid)
Novak has the numbers 24 slams. Andy Roddick said anything other than statistics just feelings. Roger number that's the truth he dominated Roger from 2011 until his retirement. Roger is 1-4 against Novak in slam finals. Novak also has edge in their head to head.
I love this video😍 My opinion is exactly the same as a title, Novak is the best tennis player of all time but in terms of greatness Roger will be my GOAT forever🐐
Once 40:15 gets going, no one can stop him
Boring... Novak has the been the GOAT since he won his 23rd
Amazing video
FED MOST TALENTED PLAYER PERFECT PLAYER BUT DJOKOVIC IS THE MOST ACOMPLISHED. JUST LOOK AT SHANGHAI MASTERS INTRODUCTION TO DJOKOVIC EVEN THEY ARE SAYING FROM SERBIA THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME NOVAK DJOKOVIC.
This topic again?
The goal in roger. There is no doubt
i way preferred watching Fed but no question Novak is the GOAT
These comments again show the almost cult-like nature of Nole fans. More GS yes - but in a weaker era. Roger changed tennis forever and is still more of a household name than Novak. If tennis was art, then Roger is Da Vinci or Michaelangelo. No one plays more beautifully than him. The GOAT is the whole package - not just numbers (although if Roger's GS titles were significantly lower then he wouldn't be the GOAT). Novak has picked up A LOT of his titles during weak eras of tennis and he wasn't competing against the likes of Hewitt, Roddick etc.
Bro Nadal is the goat🐏
Novak is the GOAT of course 👏🙌❤️
for me nadal is the GOAT
Federer can’t be the GOAT by the very definition of the word. GOAT literally means greatest of all time.
It’s impossible to be the greatest of ALL TIME when he was the third best in his own era.
You can deny reality all you want and argue that the Earth is flat, but that doesn’t make it true. Djokovic is the GOAT.
greatest mean a lot of things mate, best is another adjective. Federer as done much more on court than djokovic and a lot people agree. tennis is also a show you know. like football
Excellent analysis!!
Federer is the GOAT. Same with Maradona, he did not score the most goals, Pele scored more, yet most people think Maradona as the GOAT of football. Same with Federer. Does not matter what Djokovic does, he will never be as respected as Federer.
I agree with that thumbnail ! Novak is the best player ever but to me he Will not have the same love and leave as much as fedal !
Fortunately, greatness is decided by the people on the court, not the people on the bench
@@kagakai7729 not at all its the other way around ! The best is decided on the court ! The greatness is decided by the people ! Who remembers your name ! What people Will remember of you in 20 years Time
ROGER FEDERER IS THE GOAT 🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐 FOREVER
Why? In what way is he the greatest?
@@MrAzijn just see him play and that should suffice, like messi, zidane or maradona
@@cpt-r.federer5940what the point of playing gracefully still losing important matches.guy never defeated nadal at roland garros.losing 3 times to djoker having match points.i agree with u its ok to have exciting game style but other people will still carve on 40-15 and all.more than that he also disappoints his fans lot times with horrendous match play.his records are also mostly broken so thats it
Can you talk about nick kirgious
U spelt it wrong ❌ but yeah I will like to see a video about Nick
Am I the only one noticing a bias towards Novak in the categories Roger is largely recognized as far superior in?
Which category was Federer superior in and not awarded points for again? There was absolutely no bias bro
Yh which categories? I honestly feel skillset should have gone to Novak, and longevity just to Novak. If anything bias is more towards Roger
@@MrAzijnThought exactly the same
skill set? ah okay you that blind, the guy that can do much more and better than everybody on court. the only reason he doesn't have 30 slam is because of slowing surface and one handed backhand. and continued to play with a 90in racet because he was far off everybody else.
@cpt-r.federer594a true goat should thrive everywhere regardless of surface.you saying him struggle in slower condition.a true goat should thrive everywhere.why he struggle when he is your goat
who is your goat?
Novakkk 🐐🐐
@@b.j.l.2573 Novak
I think it’s really fun to talk about but hard to answer… Rogers my favorite tennis player, but Novak has the stats… And in the future, someone will have better stats than Novak… I don’t really think we need to have a defined goat