SABRE: Development And Evolution Of The F-86 From Straight Wings To GUNVAL
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ธ.ค. 2023
- The F-86 Sabre is a legendary aircraft, but also a complicated one to get your head around as an aviation enthusiast as there were so many different variants with so many quirks and features.
I encountered this problem when trying to compare statistics against the MiG-15 in Korea so I set out to deepen my understanding of this amazing piece of 1940's engineering. This video is a deep dive into the technical features and details of the 'narrow body', US-built day fighter Sabres. It is therefore a jumping off point into other Sabre variants, Korean air-to-air combat and other 1950s fighters.
I hope you enjoy it as it has been a long road to get this one researched and produced. I wanted to be as accurate as possible... we shall see whether I have succeeded!
PLEASE NOTE that this is an identical script to the original, which I had to take down due to an inadvertent copyright infringement.
Sources:
I used numerous books to make this one, most notably:
- "F-86 Sabre" by Maurice Allward
- "Walkaround: F-86 Sabre" by Larry Davis
- "F-86 Sabre in Color" also by Larry Davis
- "North American F-86 Sabre" by Duncan Curtis
- "F-86 Sabre: Swept Wing Supremacy" edited by Tim McLelland
- "Wings of Fame, Volume 10", pages 34-99
Hey everyone. This is a re-uploaded version of last Friday’s video. I had to remove a portion of it as I had inadvertently infringed a copyright. Sorry for any confusion!
Great video, as usual. I wouldn't have thought people were chasing down copyright infringements for F-86 development media.
Meanwhile, the Dark Skies clown is quoting Wikipedia verbatim...
What part of it was copyright?
@jb6027 his B-roll is so bad lol.
Being Canadian I have to recommend Polyus Studios
No problem. I will watch and like it again. Ironically the next great North American plane was the Bronco. which was,, every pound for air to ground.
It's amazing how often quality historical content has issues on TH-cam but absolute crap never does.
If you just make up sh1t, or simply write & deliver inaccurate drivel, you're likely not treading on anyone's toes.
This is almost like that WW2 case of survivorship bias in analysing bomber damage, isn't it?
TH-cam has a very stupid AI that does not understand context.
@@wmffmw1854that way everyone at YT can claim they knew nothing, assuming anyone even responds.
Because crap doesn't breach the copyright laws that historical channels can.
@@neiloflongbeck5705stfu, if they broke copyright laws their videos would be taken down
I saw a jet like this flying low over Tallulah Falls Georgia about five years ago. It was swept wing and silver and had that unusual air scoop in the nose. It was a treat to see it fly.
Probably was an F-86. There are still a number of them flying with private owners. Although there are some MiG-15s as well which look pretty similar if you don't really know what you are looking at.
The oversimplified and misleading P-51 narrative needs to be adjusted. The British Purchasing Commission DID go to North American Aviation to ask NAA to build ALLISON engined P-40s. Instead they were persuaded to give the Allison-engined P-51 a roll of the dice. However, the usual omission is that Allison Mustang handily outperformed the P-40 that the BPC originally sought, so that could not have been a disappointment. Secondly, the contemporary Spitfire at that time was the Spitfire Mk.V, which also had a single-stage Merlin 45/50. The Allison Mustang was some 30 mph faster than the Spitfire Mk.V at 5,000 ft, and 35 mph faster than the Spitfire Mk.V at 15,000 ft. So again, an improvement. Both the Spitfire (in the Mk.IX) and the P-51 (B, C, D, and K) gained significantly improved altitude performance when fitted with the Merlin 60-series with two-stage, two-speed supercharger. It should be noted that Allison Mustang still held certain performance advantages over the Merlin variants of the Mustang at low-to-medium altitudes, and was better suited to long-range interdiction, tactical support and tactical reconnaissance at these altitudes.
The Allison engine gets a lot of stick from ignorant people, but it certainly did just fine fitted with a turbo-supercharger in the P-38 Lightning.
Flying this in DCS World. Really appreciate how many people are working hard to keep the Legacy of the F-86 alive and well.
My Dad was a usaf Line Chief; the F-86s were always in for repairs...as a Young Boy...I Loved coming to his hangar; and seeing the F-86s.
At 27:14 you mention that some hydraulic systems were redesigned due to sudden failures. My uncle E.H. Harris was flying his Sabre sometime in 1951 or 52 when he suddenly heard an explosion. His engine died and the hydraulics didn’t work. He was in training at Luke AFB. He didn’t want to bail out so he made a dead stick landing at Phoenix Sky Harbor airport. They were able to save the plane and analyze the problem. The engine had lost a turbine blade and it severed the hydraulic lines. After this they modified the hydraulic system so it wouldn’t happen again.
My dad, Murray A. Winslow, did training at Luke and William's AFB, sometime after 1955.
The famous British pilot Eric Brown, who had probably flown more varieties of aircraft than anyone in history, but definitely the 20th century, said the F86 Sabre was an excellent fighter and what he called a pilots plane. He described the airplane as one of the best ever and when a pilot was in the fighter it felt as though he became one with the F86.
Man, you just make such damn good videos! These vid essays are pure gold; I've learned so much more about this era from watching your stuff - made more watchable by your commendably sober and neutral approach to each subject - and I hope you keep the desire to carry on making them for a while yet.
Many thanks.
(Also, thanks for pronouncing 'Oerlikon' correctly - a number of very learned and popular 'tubers & historians seem to have a bit of difficulty with it.)
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Yes, this is a re-uploaded comment, because you deserve it.
Seen one at an Air Show at CFB Borden in Ontario Canada. It was so cool. Loved the way it flew and dove and turned.
It was raining drop tanks, I wonder how many people were clobbered by one and you can bet that many were re-purposed. I thought the start cart was a hot dog stand
to make the crews feel at home. Thanks for the interesting history and the super pics and videos, there's still so much we haven't seen
In relation to WWII.
Jet fuel tanks dropping out of the sky were only one of the problems from that time in the 20th century
Move forward about twenty to thirty years.
Until only recently they would drop rocket stages on any sad unsuspecting victim below
Many drop tanks ended up as canoes, sleds and carts.
@@wacojones8062 I've seen them cut in half length ways and used as drinking troughs.
Thank you for providing us with such unparalleled content. You are appreciated!
Great video!! Even though this is a re-upload, I watched it all over again!
I built a model of an F-86 after watching the film "Sabre Jet" in the early 1980s. My then five-year old nephew pointed at the nose and said, "You need to fix that! It's got a hole in it!" I explained to him that it's where the air for the engine goes in!
WOW!! VERY nicely done!! I am usually cringing 10 minutes into these videos, just because of the GLARING mistakes, but you have done a VERY NICE JOB with this!! KEEP IT UP young man!!
That and just the foolish tone and the fact that they sound like they are just rephrasing what they read on Wikipedia. I always have to wonder who watches these videos that don't tell you anything that you couldnt have read in a few minutes when Google. Like you're to lazy to read a few pages of text so you have to get it read out loud to you with some photographs to look at? I am pretty impressed with these videos. Also haven't noticed any mistakes that weren't probably just a mistake in phrasing.
Outstanding video the second time around same as the first.
My favorite aircraft channel. A+++
the first time I got up close to a Sabre I was amazed how small it seemed - so really interesting that a pilot from the meteor felt it large in comparison.
I felt the exact opposite looking at a F-14 for the first time at a museum. I was shocked at how damn big the thing really was.
Early jets weren't very big. They had to get bigger to hold all the equipment and fuel for the more powerful engines.
Thank you for this video. It is much more thoroughly researched than even the "Great Planes" series episode (DVD) on the F-86 that has been my go to for revision for years.
Very interesting and well researched video. Canadair, in Cartierville Quebec, built over 1800 F-86 Sabres from 1950 - 1958. My father managed the shop that built the wings. In 1953 the Mk 5 Sabre, with a 6-3 wing and more powerful Orenda engine went into production. That same year Jacqueline Cochrane became the first woman to break the sound barrier, flying an RCAF Sabre Mk 2. I remember hearing sonic booms over my town, a few miles away from the Cartierville airport, in 1952 or '53.
Canadair's production of F-86 Sabres went to RCAF squadrons stationed in West Germany, the RAF, and other NATO air forces.
Hi William. We also lived in Cartierville and my father, Peter Bush, worked at Candair. He went down to California with the Sabre which Cochran used to break the sound barrier. I'll put a post at the top.
Also, as an 8 year old, my friend and I found a way under the fence around Cartier airfield, along a small creek. We used to play in some burnt out aircraft frames there. One day a Sabre ran its engines up near where we were hiding and it made my chest resonate strongly! I would be shocked to learn my children had got up to things like that!!
Moved away in 1960. Pretty much all gone now as far as I can tell.
@@TCSC47 We lived in Cartierville close to Canadair for a few years. My parents referred to that area as 'wartime housing". The houses were tiny one story 2 bedroom units. We moved to a new home my father built, NW of Montréal in 1950. There was a Sabre test pilot, also named Cochrane, who my father knew from his RCAF days. This Cochrane flew Super Sabres in Germany and, according to my father, bested Chuck Yeager in mock dogfights. He later went down to Edwards Air Force Base as a test pilot in a joint US Canada project. My father was an airworthiness inspector for the DOT in later years.
XF-86: "hey Willy, can I copy your wings?"
Me262: "sure, just change it a little so it's not obvious."
The Me262 had the same wing sweep as the DC-3…
The real swept wing progenitor was the Me P1101 as rebuilt as the Bell X-5.
Compare Me262 front view with a Boeing 727. The latter is of course bigger but the similarities are uncanny.
@@davidelliott5843 Now compare the DC-3 with both - the DC-3 had under swung engines and the same wing sweep as the Me262…
I was an F4E Driver in the early 1970's. The F-86, was much simpler. It would have been fun to fly.
The Tiger Moth also had transonic problems hence the leading adage sweep on its wings.... sorry that should read centre of gravity issues not transonic problems.
Thank you for all the hard work you put into these man.
Love the Sabre. Thank you for this video!
Great content. Loved all the detail.
I remember seeing some of these when I was kid in the 1950s, probably Air Guard birds. In the 1980s, I got to go to a 2 week fighter competition at Tyndall AFB when I was in the Air
guard. One of the contractors used an F-86 as a chase plane. Silver with yellow markings. What a beautiful bird. I always thought it was designed by artists. then someone told the engineers make it fly well.
An excellent overview of the F-86! Subscribed!
Another big problem with the Me262 was the lack of quality materials, this had a serious detrimental effect on the operational life of its engines.
Great commentary, you have a new subscriber. Respects from the UK.
Excellent commentary, and putting the a/c service into perspective changed the way I view the USAF between Korea and Vietnam. Well done.
Gah copyright issues…..
Anyway good that this video is back. Wished pc games like “Sabre Ace” and “MIG Alley” included the F-86 with 20-mm cannons.
This is EXCELLENT!!!
Outstanding detail!
Thank you! It was a labour of love!
Great video, as usual!
Some good stuff here. Thank you!
Legend. You are so good at this.
Wow Mr. you do put quite a lot of time, and effort into your shows. I really appreciate it, and shall be here to see you get to that 100k Mark! Good Job!
Excellent video.
Off topic based on P51 comment.
Mustang was built with the Allison single stage V12 because that’s what the P40 Tomohawk used. Both were intended for low level use so no worries. A British test pilot saw the Mustang’s potential. Rolls Royce were given 5 airframes and 6 weeks later had a prototype flying. It looked clunky with a big under spinner air intake but was only 4mph slower than the finished version with intercooler alongside the main radiator.
You've done some good research here...nice work
This is turning out to be a great channel
+1 sub
Awesome!
As usual, an excellent video. Again, I would really love to look forward to a series of videos about the Iran vs Iraq war by you. Thank you.
THE F-86 SABRE WAS A SUPERB DESIGN FOR A JET FIGHTER
For an absolutely hilarious unintended comedy photo, go to 1:19 in this video and look at the ludicrous scene of what appears to be a British P-40 Kittyhawk heading down the runaway while in the background appears to be full grown man riding along side on top of his little toy version!
Kudos on the use of footage from "The F-86's Are Coming!". I still laugh every time I watch that. Took our F-4 Phantoms to Kunsan Korea in the early 80's. Saw a bunch of Sabres and thought it was some kind of flight museum. Nope, The Korean Air Force was still flying them.
But when will you cover the best Sabres ever built - the Orenda-powered Canadair Sabre Mk. 5 and Mk. 6 which could fly rings around the others?
Not the CAC Avon Sabre redesigned and used by the RAAF, handed down to Indonesia and Malaysia, Twin 30mm Aden canon as well. Get hit by 1 one round and your dead!
That's what happens when you take an already aging design and update it while the original designers are busy coming out with a while new generation of jet that would crush it in a moment? Like you really think that no one in the US could have put a better engine in an F-86 and made it better if they had any need to? They were making the F-100.
“When the gunsight worked, it showed to have improved accuracy” 😂
Good stuff. I gotta say I like the F-84 better but the 86 is pretty sweet too
Brit usage, "Valve"; US usage, "Vacuum Tube".
My dad was an apprentice tool and die maker at Ilinois Institute of Technology he worked on the T-160 Reverse engineering project and on a Boosted Rocket gun for the F-89 Scorpion. First full auto test with the T-160 on a range in the Indiana Dunes blew the roof off the firing bunker. A similar test with the boosted Rocket gun at 1,000 yards put all its rounds into a 1 mil circle so the F-89 got the 2.75 inch folding fin rockets nicknamed the Mighty Mouse with a better dispersion pattern also the F-86D got them also.
I grew up to be a successful artists after drawing F-86 planes since kindergarten !
One of the small points that makes the Sabre a good looking aircraft is the little lip above the air intake. This houses the microwave horn aerial for the gun aiming electronics.
Cheers
Re-upload? STILL a GREAT VIDEO...👍
North American Aviation in the 40s/50s was absolutely an innovative powerhouse. My father owns and flys a North American (not Ryan) Navion with a refitted high power engine, and it's an absolute DREAM to fly in. Initially built as a VIP transport plane, it's as close to flying a true warplane of the WW2 era as possible. It's counted as a warbird and he often flies in demonstrations and with a formation flying team. NAA just made amazing planes back then.
Excellent video. I have only ever seen a real sabre in a museum, but if DCS is accurate in its flight models, the Sabre is a much nicer plane to fly than the Mig-15. That T-tail really bites you at high angles of attack and like most Ruzzian things, the ergonomics are much poorer in the Mig. And yes, the virtual Mig can definitely take a beating but the 50cals have higher muzzle velocity which makes them much (much!) easier to aim than the 37 with its limited ammo that runs out quickly and even the 23s, the real meat and potatoes of the migs weaponry, are inferior in everything except damage, assuming you can hit something.
From this virtual experience, I can see why they tried the high velocity 20s but the 50cals can work. As they have so much ammo, the pilot can spray quite a bit and after a few hits in the right places, even though the Mig is still dangerous, it flies at a disadvantage and is relatively easy to finish off. Of course, this is one part of the sim that is a lot of guesswork. Even with subject matter experts (retired pilots who flew the planes) there won’t be too many who know exactly how damage affects performance and rye won’t have modelled every possible type of damage.
I repeat - all of this is virtual experience and with the best efforts in the world, the programmers may have missed a few tiny things that make a big difference. It’s also an older module so the developers have most likely got better at accuracy as time goes on.
Anyway. The Sabre is a much prettier plane and when you are flying virtually for fun, that should not be discounted!
Thanks for the comment. As it happens I have a deep dive into the MiG-15 coming in January. Your conclusion is right in the main. The Sabre was easier to fly for the average pilot and, from the F-25 onwards was superior in most flight regimes to the MiG-15bis. In the hands of an experienced pilot, however, the MiG was probably the better aircraft as a really confident aviator could fly around its foibles and make the best use of its combination of thrust-to-weight and heavy armament. Again, once the F-25 comes out, I think that situation reverses.
I can never decide if I like the Sabre or the Hunter more, they're both just so damn gorgeous.
how about the MiG-15?
@@onlyhereformoney175 I appreciate it as an object of utility
So sorry for your confusion. Do you have trouble deciding whether to wear dresses or pants?
For those of us in the US the Radar "Valves" are what we call Vacuum Tubes....
This is a fantastic video! It’s extremely informative and engaging. One thing I noticed is that the audio seems to trail off a bit when you cut between takes. Nothing too severe, and it doesn’t really detract from my enjoyment, but it’s one of the only flaws in this video. I hope to see your channel grow!
Engineers at N. American were truly inspired. Yeager noted that we had the "flying-tail" which gave pilots
the edge over the Migs.
Chuck Yeager is credited for the first person to break the sound barrier in level flight. I doubt an F-86 Sabre ever broke the sound barrier in level flight.
The "bright spark" was allegedly Ron Harker, test pilot for Rolls Royce.
Wow!
My father loved flying the F-86
It's funny thinking the F-100 Super Sabre was ultimately developed from the P-51
Murray A. Winslow was my dad. He told my mother that when he fell into the Yellow River he touched the bottom of the earth. It took eighteen hours before the Marines picked him up. He attributed his ulcers to that experience. I was born only a few days before this event.
An elegant aircraft for a more civilized time.😌
There are other variants worth mentioning.... License built by Canadair in Montreal, the Canadian Sabres featured more powerful Orenda engines. ;) I think the Aussies also improved theirs with hotter engines. Similar story with the T-33, Canadian license built versions featured Rolls Royce Nene 10 engines vs the Allison turbojets in the Lockheed T-birds. A bit more ooomph haha.
well that's a really good video my friend North American Aviation of Los Angeles California was incredible company very incredible it had some of the best engineers in the country working for it including the f86 all previous aircraft including this aircraft cocktail napkin design aircraft. Yes that's right believe it or not some of the most incredible aircraft in the world we're firstly drawn on cocktail napkins for some reason the North American Aviation Engineers did their best design work at the bar. A few weeks after Chuck Yeager broke sound barrier the data and Technology came to North America the X1 break the sound barrier it was the Flying tail that Chuck Yeager and Jack Ridley designed that was the f86 secret weapon if it didn't have that flying tail the fa6 would not been able to break the sound Burger because the sound barrier like you did on the X1 would build up on the control service area of the tail and render it unusable just before the sound barrier would break so no control we were flying tail you can fly through the sound barrier without the build up on the control services. And today the flying tail is the thing on every fighter jet main command and anything else that goes fast but back to the plane. Harrison storms was a incredible engineer really incredible, his first week at North American Aviation was trying to get the weight down on the Doolittle B-25 so they can lift off Carrier deck of the hornet. Harrison storms was a model maker for many years as a kid and he said well you know instead of aluminum for all the control surfaces we can go back to just fabric cover control services and that would save me a huge amount of weight and that's what they did and they made surfaces bigger too they enlarged the flaps so more air could be shoved underneath them when they need to take off The Courier deck that's one of the first things Harrison Stones did when he was he novice engineer at the North American Aviation company but he took on a lot of the aerodynamic engineering on the f-86 all the different models including the last models the H and J models also. the f-86 if you get a chance to send one is something else it was built like a Cadillac seriously it was very well put together. I know a lot about North American Aviation cuz my father worked for North American Aviation from 1953 to 1984
It would have really spiced up the intro if he'd have mentioned how North American's roots back to Anthony Fokker's American aircraft company.
Always wondered about the sexiest nose cone of all time the mini protrusion. I always thought it to be crafted in aluminium but was disappointed to learn it was a glass molding.
The F-86 only broke the sound barrier in a dive, critically Yeager broke it in the X-1 during level controlled flight. That's the difference in deciding who gets the credit for the achievement.
28:00 Nice to see the South African Springbok roundel. This was most probably from Flying Cheetahs, 2 Squadron during the Korean war.
A flyover of F-86A was part of the Sunday, 17 July 1955 grand opening of Disneyland.
Making the algorithm comment
Appreciate it, thank you.
The basic design of the Sabre, like it's iconic predecessor, the D-model Mustang, was a testament to the axiom that if an aircraft LOOKS right, it most likely IS right. Compare the McDonnel-Douglas F-4 Phantom 2 which looks like it was designed by a committee of plumbers with it's higher dihedral outer wing and the negative dihedral tailplane. Granted the F-4 was a beast in combat, but it's a stretch to say it was a beautiful aircraft like the North American fighters.
it was beautiful if you squinted and were looking away lol
@@Caphalea Lol, indeed. I have a neighbor who was a backseater in F-4s over N Vietnam who would vehemently disagree with my comment above. But all fighter jocks feel the same about their particular steed.
@jamesrussell7760 wasn't the nick for the phantom double ugly or rhino?
HASEGAWA made a 1/72nd scale model of the F86F, which I bought when I was 15 years old - it was perhaps the best model kit I ever had the pleasure to build. It had rubber tires, movable slats and speed brake panels, a seperable fusilage with a totally detailed GE engine - including rubber hoses and individual burner cans, a tail stand A beautifully detailed model that I cherished, up until the day my younger brother knocked it of my dresser, where it smashed onto the hardwood floor below.
I'm sorry to hear about the unfortunate death of your younger brother....
@@Menaceblue3 🤣
When was the wing fence added?
Worth going back to the origins of North American Aviation and recognise that they were not a new company- in fact they were the offspring of a company with a pretty legendary track record for fighter aircraft: Fokker.
Comment for the algorithm
and then there was the Australian CAC Avon Sabre - where does it fit in model line up?
Sabre is a sum of „borrowed“ German engineering! 😉
Thank goodness for closed captioning, even bad CC can be a help. In WW2 documentaries where the German, Russian and French are subtitled allow this poor American the ability to understand what those vet's are saying buy when the British vet's speak with their sometimes very strong accents I miss out on what they had to say. Not too hard here but some of his local ways of phrasing get past me.
The Royal Netherlands Airforce deployed the F-86K model, with an enlarged radar nose, because of which it had all weather capabilities. I missed this type in your excellent video. Is there a reason why?
So the D or K model were meant to be an upgrade of the Sabre, but they changed so much it was basically a whole new plane (According to google they only shared 25% parts ) , so I can see it being a seperate video.
I think the Soviets got some early designs of the F86 and built the MiG 15 on those designs.
Why do you think that?
29:00 is this from spanish sources?
NAA were not a young company. They were essentially the US arm of Fokker.
..i want one.
The last Mustangs left service in about 1984.
What are the bulges on the sabre fuselage at 40:38?
That's a RF-86 reconnaissance version. The bulges contain cameras mounted in varying positions. A few RF-86s, F-86As and later F-86Fs, were field modified in Korea during the war and the bulges, armament, and camera layout differed from aircraft to aircraft. While some RF-86s retained two M-3 .50cal machine guns, most were unarmed but often retained the gun ports, or had gun ports painted on, to give the appearance of being armed fighters. Whether this ruse was effective in a jet dog fight is debatable. While the USAF standardized on RF-84Fs, the Japanese JASDF had small numbers of locally-built RF-86s equipping a few squadrons. The JASDF did not use F-84s so RF-86s made sense.
The USAF also had North American Aviation make a handful of RF-100As that served in Europe and the Far East until the RF-101s came on board.
6:41 Just add the soundtrack of a Lord Of The Ring scene. Where is the ring now? I got it! YOU got it?!
When the Whittle engine was rejected, where did the idea for Sabre’s engine come from?
Didn't the Meteor fly operationally before the Me. 262?
@19:31 did they all just get sucked into the engine? 😮
No mention of the Australian and Canadian versions which were much more powerful.
Jet Pilot 1957 john wayne janet leigh
The plane was designed by Kurt Tank under the name Ta 183
Why do all Curtis P-40's have somebody sitting on the wing while taxiing? In all P-40 video's you see those hitch hikers. And on the runway, they are gone, so it is not wing walkers or paratroopers. Anyone? Who are these men? Is it the pilot, and is the plane idling, maybe?
Why does everybody keep propagating the myth that NAA designed and built the Mustang in 101 days when it took other builders' years? The truth is they bought the design from Curtiss. The plans were for the replacement for the P-40. If you research Curtiss, you will find that all the P-51 innovations like laminar flow wings attributed to NAA, show up on Curtiss prototypes. Curtiss built and flew at least twelve experimental planes, but none were put into production. The mystery is why. However, NAA did add innovative production features.
NAA did not buy the P-51 design from Curtiss. They bought wind-tunnel data and laminar flow research data from Curtiss. The NA-73 was designed by Edgar Schmued and his team at NAA.
What's an explosive 50 cal like? Sounds gnarly but how's that work?
The me262 was a death trap, and was only good in certain circumstances. More of them would not have changed the war, the British developed the gloster meteor around the same time and it was much better.
It seems everything we have nowadays is a copy of the good old German technology....