HOGSHIP: The Last Of The Sports Models Was A Sabre Like No Other
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 เม.ย. 2024
- The F-86H was the last of the land-based Sabre variants. Featuring the most power of any Sabre, 20mm cannons and Sidewinders as well as nuclear weapon delivery capability, it was a super version of the legendary F-86. And yet it is mostly forgotten in the contemporary reckoning, simply a footnote on the Korean War A, E and F.
This video therefore focuses entirely on the Hog. It is a fascinating aircraft that looks a lot like a Sabre, but is arguably a different beast entirely.
Sources (also see "Silver Charger" notes for a fuller list)
"North American F-86H Sabre Hog" by Earl Berlin is the definitive (actually, the only) book on the F-86H. To be honest, although it contains a mass of detail, it is slightly awkward to read.
A-to-F Sabre video: • SABRE: Development And...
Sabre Dog video: • DOGSHIP: Why Have We F...
Featherduster video, covering F-86H vs F-100, amongst other things: • FEATHERDUSTER: Phantom...
Avon Sabre video: • CAC SABRE: Was Austral...
I never heard of the H model being called the Sabre Hog. I was hoping to see some video of my Air Guard unit's F-86H's (167th FIS, later TFS), WVA ANG. We had the dash one models with six 50 cal. guns. When first acquired, it wasn't unusual to hear a sonic boom once in a while. We had some hot rod pilots in those days (1958 - 1960). I was a radio tech. The "avionics" on the H consisted of a UHF (ARC-27), Radio compass (ARN-6) and IFF (APX-6). I doubt there are many people around that worked on the H. I joined the Guard when I was 17. I'm now 85.
Mountaineers are always free!
@@gregbailey1753 😀😀😀😀😀
I did not know it had those systems, thanks.
Thanks, man. Great to hear from someone who maintained these awesome machines.
Damn good to hear real-world experience from the actual maintainers.
Was able to sit in the cockpit of 'Beauteous Butch 2' the highest scoring F86 from the Korean war. Flown by Joseph McConnell. On display at an air museum in New Zealand.
That’s super cool.
The J57/J73 comparison you gave was of dry (non-afterburning) thrust. The J73 variant in the F-86H didn't have an afterburner, while the J57 in the F100 had a particularly powerful one, that boosted the thrust all the way to 14,800 lbf in the F-100A's J57-P-7. The afterburner is also what boosted the exhaust velocity high enough for supersonic flight
These videos are definitely the best way to end my last shift of the week every Friday morning. Thanks for your hard work, man!
I save them for my lunch break on Friday; an awesome herald of the weekend!
@jona.scholt4362 They release an hour before my shift ends, so it's the soundtrack for my drive home.
@@ThraceVega Either you're at the end of the Thursday third shift or are in a very different time zone than me!
@@Jon.A.Scholt Yep, end of my Thursday into Friday graveyard shift!
@@ThraceVega I would say "Lucky Bastard, enjoy your weekend!", but I've worked third shift and it wasn't for me!
In any case, enjoy the episode and the weekend!
Are you going to cover the Canadian Sabres powered by the mighty Orenda engine?
Check 6, MARK 6!
or more powerful Aussies CAC Sabre with Rolly Royce engine and 30mm cannons.
@@nedkelly9688 He’s already done a video on the Avon Sabres mate!
Thanks for sharing. My local air museum just acquired a static F-86H that will be cosmetically restored at put on display. I'm excited to be a part of the project and your video helped me get more background on this much overlooked model of the F-86!
"Weither it was a better aircraft depends on what you're using it for." Thank you! I've lost track of amount of times I've had to tell people this exact phrase. I once had a chat with a rather eccentric fellow who genuinely believed that A-10's CAS abilities made large strategic bombers obsolete.
*whether
I am, and have been for most of my life, an F-86 fan. I especially like the Sabre Dog, and, yes, I know, it's quite a bit different from the normal F-86, but still. And yet, I have never heard of the Hog variant. Thank you so much for this video, I really learned a lot from it.
Ever heard of the Aussie CAC F86 Rolls Royce engine and 30mm cannons. faster and more powerful then any other.
@@nedkelly9688 Cool plane, first flew 6 years after NA F86 first flight. NA was already moving on to the F100 design by that time, but cool plane nevertheless.
@@asquare9316 Yea Australia had few good designs but usually cancelled by Britian CAC CA23 was interesting also delta wings and twin rolls royce engines and estimated top speed of mach 1.5, but downfall was the tv radar in the nose..
Russia even stole the designs and said to have built the delta wings in their SU7
A model that frequently gets glossed over when anyone talks about the Sabre, this and the P-51H.
I cant wait for you to do a video on the F101 Voodoos on of my favorite jets along with the F104
I love watching these videos here at work, meaning here at GE! It’s really cool to hear you guys talk about our history and the things we’ve done before. I’m currently working on an F129 program. I’m a big fan of the channel, looking forward to the next one!
If you want to compare that GE with the Orenda this is the place, and we both know the Canadian one is better. If it seems I disapprove of GE marketeers
it is because I recall the doomed/deadlyXB-70 flight was for GE marketing .
Your (GE's) marketing gimmick was boasting about GE jets caused the loss of 1 of only 2 planes ever made, and the 2 top game aircrew. GE salesmen go away in shame.
@@robertsolomielke5134 ya, 60 years ago. From pilot error, which regardless was extremely unfortunate and tragic. Your point is silly, but you’re entitled to have it ✌🏼
@@jimiraybecktonSorry, not personal. It's the crew loss, and the plane. I am among those who see the XB-70 as the best ever in class. Test pilots take risk for breakfast (brunch?) like few people will ever do.
@@robertsolomielke5134 cope and seethe
Just a tip, id love some visual representation of the numbers when comparing the engines and such as just hearing numbers from each makes it quite hard to actually compare the two by having to skip back and fourth multiple times
Seconded. Visual representations always make it much easier to get a sense of things.
There's a perfect example in this very video, at 3:33 - I was already aware that the H model was a bit chunkier than its predecessors, but now I've got a direct visual comparison to refer to.
My dad flew the Canadair Sabre Mk. 5 and Mk. 6 from 1955-1960, he loved it, he used to tell me stories about him and his wing-men pouncing on American Sabres when he was posted in Germany and then out-climbing them to get away.
Sidewinder licks lips... 😊
Same in SEA, F-100's tried jumping Australian F-86's and got spanked
Thanks to the Orenda 14. I build and overhaul those engines in my shop at Jet City Turbines.
Was your Dad stationed in Baden-Söllingen?
@@schinkenspringer1081 I only remember him talking about
Zweibrücken in his stories.
The H was a rare bird. We had one on a pedestal mount at Hanscom AFB near Boston, MA when I was stationed there from 1986-1990. I believe it's still there.
Hadn't really paid attention to all of the F-86 variants, but this was quite interesting! Looking through my various photos, I now realize that the F-86 at the Museum of the USAF that has the skin removed is a F-86H.
I love that display as it shows quite an amazing level of sophistication under the skin of that aircraft!
The F-8 Crusader was an overall superior aircraft to the F-100. The USAF would have been better off chosing it to replace the legendary Sabre.
Whilst I do adore the F-8 Crusader, it was a naval fighter. It was made to compete purely for air dominance. If one looks at the role of the F-100 it served less a fighter, and more as a close air support role. Whilst I do think F-8 would most likely come out on top in almost any sort of aerial engagement, it simply did not have the strike capability and versatility that the F-100 could offer.
TAC in the 50's: hey, why do THEY get all the budget?
DoD: they have the nukes
TAC: oh, we can play your little games
I can never wait until a reasonable hour to watch the latest video. I have to watch as soon as I see the notification.
I hadn't known there were so many variants of the F-86, all with significant differences. On top of that, we still have a few to go!
They made beautiful aircraft at the time.
no offense because I mean this in a really nice way but I fell asleep to this and slept really well thanks
Short attention spans real issue with the younger generations.
@@edwardpate6128 i was tired dawg
@@edwardpate6128 Actually the younger generations to myself need to acquire a wider range of capabilities than we 3/4 century individuals did whilst young and learning. Being able use available resources to research, enter and use information in a speedy manner is not a fault. They are our inheritors.
So many experts chiming in, in the comments! As a casual fan of history and jets I really appreciate the detailed info. Thank you, all of you!
Wonderful video on the lesser-known F-86H. Thanks for sharing! I see your thumbnail is the box art of the "Special Hobby" 1/72 scale F-86H plastic model kit with USAF livery.
Glad to see any coverage of the "H" model Sabre. The F-86H is one of those Jets that I wish there were more offerings in model kit form by any mainstream model kit manufacturer instead of limited run kits.
Excellent as always. Perfect delivery too. Thank you
Rapidly becoming one of my favourite late evening/fall asleep/re-listen next day during the commute Channels.
Thanks for the videos mate, keep it up 👍
Thanks. I've seen the F86K in Germany as a school boy. You didn't mention this version, with the big radar dome in front.
And it had six guns and a powerplant with afterburner.
I remember hearing the boom once in a while.
Thanks for detailed & easy-to-fly (understand) illustration of a/c. Also thanks for beautiful and rare footages
Great stuff. Can't tell you how much I'm enjoying your channel.
The F86H makes an interesting comparison to the FJ-4B, the Canadair Sabre F.6 and the CA 27 Sabre.
The usual great overview! 'Hog' for the H model surely does sound more aggressive than 'How' (The phonetic 'H' of the day, or the more modern 'Hotel'--good thing the Republic fans didn't trademark the nickname.
Speaking of which, are there any F-84 videos in the queue? Hopefully we'll also see comparisons of the F-86H with F-84Fs and FJ-2 and -3 Furys at some point.
Keep up the good work.👍
Discovered your channel 2 weeks ago. Very good quality content, please keep up good work. I am enjoying every single episode.
The 20mm AN-M24E1 automatic cannon was an electrically primed AN-M2 Hispano-Suiza. The 20mm M39 was an American adaptation of the German developed "revolver" cannon.
Indeed. The 20mm Mauser MK-213 (and its beefier cousin the 30mm MG-213), designed in wartime Germany, but never actually deployed.
It also formed the foundation for the British 30mm ADEN and the French 30mm DEFA as well as, presumably, the modern day Mauser 27mm BK-27.
The M39 also fired different 20mm ammunition to autocannons from the Hispano-Suiza family, using a 20x102mm shell (which the M61 Vulcan later inherited) as opposed to the older H-S 20x110mm and the German 20x82mm.
@@stickiedmin6508 Aussies used the Aden with twin 30mm cannon on their CAC F86F version and had Roll's Royce Avon RA7 engine also for more power.
So cool! Was not as familar with this variant. Would've loved to have seen these mix it up with MiG-17s in Vietnam! Thank you for this excellent content every week too! 🥰😊
Nice video as alway, is there some sort of Community with a Discord etc?
A kiddie park near Cincinnati's Lunken Airport had an F-86H of the DC ANG. The cockpit was filled with concrete. The Sabre went to hell, the NMUSAF in Dayton said fix it up or else.
Museum came and got it, scrapped it with parts going to another museum in Georgia.
Great work as usual.
I have often wondered what could have been the result if we had upgraded the F-86 in the same way MiG had done going from the MiG-15 to the MiG-17 with more wing sweep and a more powerful afterburning engine. How different would that have been in Vietnam?
Very good video, I really didn't know the F-86H existed before seeing this.
Delivery of air to ground weapons by fighters was not a new idea born of nuclear weapons, and in WWII was an integral part of offensive counter air operations. You can destroy and damage enemy fighters more efficiently by attacking them while parked rather than by engaging them in dogfights. As nukes proliferated fighters were adapted to carry them as a natural progression of fighter weapons capability.
Sabre jets.......nuff said 👍. thx.
I always like to think that the F-86 was designed by an artist and the engineers were told to make it fly.
Great video!
Very well done again thank you
@20:38 "Why weren't Sabres sent to Vietnam"
Because McNamara's Whiz Kids and the Generals would have to explain to Congress why the billions being spent on new aircraft when a plane from the 50s was good enough.
Because while late model Sabres with sidewinders, could most defintely handle Mig 17 they most defintely can't handle Mig 19s/21s. 😊
very well presented, and interesting!
The aircraft shape is iconic.
Your videos are f*cking great! Love watching and listening
FYI, my father flew the Sabre shown at 7:38, FU-021. The jet was part of the 386 FBS/ 312 FBG. The color flashes on the nose, tail and tanks are red w/white. The photo was almost certainly taken at Clovis AFB (now Cannon) between 1955 and 1957.
There are a lot of calls here for a video on the Canadair Sabres used by the RCAF which would make for an interesting video.
That said an interesting subject I haven't seen covered in a video would be a video on the Avro Arrow and the BAC TSR-2 and a comparison between their roles, design, and the controversy surrounding their cancellations.
There have probably been enough videos done on both airplanes separately but there are so many parallels between their stories that a comparison would be interesting.
Of note to this video, I believe the Orenda Iroquois engine being developed for the Arrow pioneered the use of titanium in turbine engines. I wonder if its use in the F-86H's engine was a matter of parallel development or technology transfer? 😅
My dad was an air force career officer and pilot. The F86 was his favorite plane.
My granddad was a Saber mechanic in Korea and I really wish he was still around to share this with. 😢
Is it me, or is the Officer standing by the Flight Surgeon's Jeep flipping the bird to the pilot of the passing Saber? (timestamp :24 seconds)
Yes - I noticed that too. At 0:26. Must have had a different meaning in the day. Or maybe he just hated that particular pilot.
Pretty sure they were just good buddies busting eachother's balls. Back then you could talk trash and no one got butthurt about it. You did notice he had a big grin on his face while doing it, right?
Not too many are aware of Detroits contribution to Cold War manufacture of Military Items continued well after WW2, where Detroit earned the moniker of Arsenal of Democracy, even though we are a Constitutional Republic.
The MD Air National Guard had the F-86H and it was replaced by the A- 37 Dragonfly which I believe happened in 1971, possibly 1972. I thought for sure we would be going to Viet Nam but it didn't happen. I believe they were brand new when we received delivery. We marveled at the side by side seating, the twin engines and the mini-gun in the nose. They also had hard points for rockets or bombs. One engine could be shut down to increase loiter time. The next upgrade was the A-10 Warthog but my time was over before this occurred. Most of the service we did on the F-86H was to removed and replace rivets from the "black boxes" and stop drilling cracks in the skin during an inspection.
It’s rather strange that the Sabre naval version, the FJ3/4 Fury was not tested in combat
during the 1958 Strait of Formosa crisis.
And the F4j was a looker too
Because there was no combat?
@@edsmale there was plenty but with Sidewinder-armed Sabres, not Furys.
@minhthunguyendang9900 not American Sabres were not involved, there was no direct combat with American forces. Those were ROC Sabers. As no US forces were in combat, Navy Fury were not used.
@@edsmale that’s which made me wonder why no Fury was sold to the ROC for evaluation in combat.
Perhaps the Fury was still secret at tthe time ?
24:55 interesting small Polish white-red chessboard roundel on China Lake machines.
They supposedly were called 'Polish Air Force'.
Gonna do some digging.
Short explanation: In 1974, the Polish Air Force flew the Lim-6, a licensed and Polish produced CAS model of the MiG-17 Fresco. Since these were QF-86 target drones with similar performance specs to the Lim-6, the China Lake ground crews added the (incorrect) Polish roundel on their own initiative. It wasn't an official marking, and they were eventually removed.
Great video presentation.
Innovatness is not a word. Innovation is the word to use. I only say this because this video is so close to perfection.
Nice! Another high quality look at an interesting subject.
I look forward to when, "for now, at least", expends, and you take a look at the Canadair and Australian Avon Sabre hot rods. 🙂
I got to see a F-100 Super Sabre flying at low altitude back in 1975-76. It was Very loud . Even my grandpa said it was loud. We were working hoeing weeds in Lubbock. I'm sure it was using all the power to keep it flying at such low altitude.
In the first chapter of Dan Pedersen`s book "Top Gun" the author described that he conducted mock dogfight against ANG`s F-86H over Mojave desert, in his F4D Skyray.
Interesting... How about a video on Canadian Sabres
I reckon we're probably pretty safe in assuming that it's already in the works...
🤞😃
Jeez... a version I didn't even know about and almost 500 were manufactured!
Thank you. 👍🏻
Good stuff
I saw one crash near Hartford WI. During Pheasant season.
Early 60s. The Pilot had already bailed out when it went over Us.I was very young.
The differences of the intake of the hog kind of remind me more of the Fury’s intake. Those used on the earlier model sabers looked smaller than what the fury had.
Thank-You
I worked on the F-100 aftet the USAF retired them and the Air National Guard units received them. Tucson had such a unit to which I was attached prior to Vietnam. Due to its stubby wings it had difficulty getting airborne in hot weather. I used to watch them trying to take off at a high angle of attack and wallowing down the runway at full throttle. Eventually it would win.
Nuclear Fighter bomber ironically used as a interim fighter before f-100 became fully operational
What you described
about the longevity issues of the guns was a near-identical problem for the WW2 Me262 but with its Jumo 004 jet engines . Wunderwaffe? I don’t think so.
Hey thanks for answering the question on whether these might have had a chance against a mig-17 in Vietnam
As you pointed out they didn't make a whole lot of them as well as their engine so this is kind of a non-starter
Still interesting that these were used to simulate a mig-17 and the drastically different Mig-19
One thing I've had to research on my own is whether or not they were related to the FJ4 fury and the answer is new even though I thought they looked like
Cool!
F-86H had a naval equivalent too, the FJ-4! And add the CAC Sabre (Avon+Aden). It seems a lot interesting this family, despite the 'standard' type was by far the most produced.
The Canadair versions with Orenda engines. Still shooting down planes in the 70s.
Forgive me, I have watched your Sabre videos but didn't get or can't remember what you mean by "sport models",
Non-interceptor versions. A, E, F and H
Hope there will be a in-depth look at the Canadair Sabres.
What's the bomber design, seen at 3:54 ? Looks pretty cool.
There’s one of these on display at the air museum in my home state. I think it has four 20mm like the F-2 though. Apparently the Colorado Air Guard (or whatever it’s called idk for sure) flew them into like the 60s-70s who knew 🤷🏼♂️
thanks for another great video! I'd love if you could cover the Cabadair Sabres and their Orenda engines,
The GE J-73 was was later developed into the J-79.
Of course you see the ground crew member giving the pilot the one finger salute at take off. @25-6 seconds into the video.
Brought to you by North American Fokker!
And GM, I know 😉
We have one of these on display at a local park
Very interesting view @10:00. That's at the Westchester County Airport in Harrison, NY just a few miles from where I grew up. That hanger is still there housing a NetJets terminal. 41.075806, -73.709910
There is a T-33 on a pylon at the entrance of the airport.
Are the jets in the photo at 16:35 actually orange or red? All we can see is something other than silver.
I personally would have loved to have seen a J73 powered F-86D/K
DCS World needs an updated Sabre.
Was the 20mm cannon the same as used in the F 8 Crusader later in Vietnam?
No, US Navy aircraft like the Crusader, Skyhawk, Tiger and so on used the Colt Mk 12 - an improved and lightened version of the wartime Hispano-Suiza family of autocannons.
The last USN planes fitted with Mk 12s were the early versions of the A-7. Later models carried the M61 Vulcan, which became standard across all American military branches.
@@stickiedmin6508
Thank you!
@@anselmdanker9519
🤘😎
4:50 Love the tailless Sabre
F-86 or F-100. It’s all good. R.I.P F-107. Alas, we never knew you.
Quick send this video to War thunder I want this plain now if possible.
*plane, not plain
In a way, the F-86H was the American MiG-17.
When I was young my friends and me would draw these Jets
Delivering a nuke at low level, sounds insane just saying it. When did the Sabers switch to 20mm guns? The dog fighting during the Korea war was some of the best flying ever done in my book.
Looks strangely like a Mig.
1:20 -Lead Sled? I thought that was a nickname for the F-105 or was that the Ultra Hog?
The Republic planes were known as Hogs. The P-47 was the original Hog, the F-84 was the Super Hog, the 105 was Ultra Hog.
F-105 was the 'Thud'.
@@jimdavis8391 I'm aware of that but as the other responder said it was also known as the Ultra Hog, this was due to how much runway it needed to takeoff.
Please correct me but the M39 (revolver canon) was designed by Ford ...ha.. i think i heard my answer...how relatsd is / was it to the Mauser ?
It was sort of a copy but with a mismash of Metric to English conversions. All tools in the USA were English and that bites hard with the B-57 Canberra bomber. The USA paid Canada to produce Sabres for NATO because Europe is metric
The M39 was developed by the Springfield Armory, based on the World War II-era design of the German Mauser MG 213, a 20 mm (and 30 mm) cannon developed for the Luftwaffe, which did not see combat use. The same design inspired the 30mm British ADEN cannon and the French DEFA, but American designers chose a smaller 20 mm round to increase the weapon's rate of fire and muzzle velocity at the expense of hitting power. The 20×102mm round was later chosen by France for the M621 cannon.[1]
@@ndenise3460 ok thanks I'll check it out
@@Easy-Eight thank you another avenue to check cheers
@@ndenise3460 ok another question . Did Ford design it based on a "development idea" from Springfield or did they just receive manufacturing drawings outright ?
Do you know of the Australian Avon Sabre?