I agree with your thesis (in essence, but I could nitpick), but not this specific instance. Pressing Tab is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay much more jarring and takes me out so much more than party frames do. If I have party frames I have to press tab less frequently = less UI blocking my screen per game. Pressing Tab just to ask "who is alive, and who has ult?" in the fastest way possible is ridiculously jarring when I am Junker Queen
oh I 100% agree. I have not thought of a unique solution to that problem just yet. i think seeing and being notified of health bars visually in game seems like a much easier problem to solve but if there was a way to get that same information through gameplay without hitting tab i bet overwatch would feel a lot better. i'd much rather come up with a unique solution around that then put in time to just add more UI to the screen for sure. very good point to bring up.
I disagree. The minimalistic UIs trying to hide as much of the UI as possible are one of the worst plagues of modern gaming. Bring back old, proper UIs
0:09 in the case of the overwatch Ui, I agree and disagree BUT mostly agree. 1) being a PvP centered competitive hero game, information is needed, commnication is integral to competitive play, and unfortunately there is people who aren't good at that or aren't vocal at all. 2) Agree that it's bad in the aspect that any DPS, in this image's case tracer, very pointless to have especially if you're a tank. as a dps your main concentration is should be Annoying the enemy team, disrupt them, eliminate them, etc. Tank should only worry about defending the team so they can advance or Dive onto the team and cause disruption to their defensive flow. 3) where i disagree heavily is it's a bad implementation, sort of. Healers would in fact need this information HOWEVER, there is already Ui elements and other forms of feedback for the healers to take action ( Voice lines, Player request healing Voice lines, Health bars on top of characters form the healer POV, and Health need icons in HUd for healers).
for a competitive game i don’t think adding some extra information to a UI that isn’t in all honesty all that cluttered to begin with we don’t play a competitive game to be „immersed in the world” this ain’t red dead redemption or any other story game for me to want to be immersed, so i kinda need the info, personally when you disabled the HUD i didn’t feel immersed i just felt confused because i didn’t have the information i need in order to play my character anymore, also even tho i’m not necessarily advocating for adding this feature, i can definitely see why people would want it and i don’t think it would cause clutter it would genuinely benefit people who just go all in not realizing their team is just dead
ok lets say hypothetically we just include all the information on the screen. we add the health bars, ult timers, friendly respawns, enemy respawns, damage numbers, etc... all on the screen at once. since it gives a strategic advantage to include all that information at all times what is stopping us from doing that? would you think that would make the game better? and do you think there are other ways to communicate that same information through gameplay rather than just UI?
@ again, i’m not for it nor against it, my point is i don’t think this feature can be considered „clutter” the OW UI was never really cluttered it was always pretty straight forward, as for getting the information about someone’s death or someone being low HP, supports who require it the most already have that information tied to the allies themselves and there is a sound effect you can turn on in the settings for when one of your teammates dies, only real winner from this feature would be tank and dps players that don’t pay much attention to their own backline
Not everyone plays the game to be immersed in it. Would I like the extra ui, yes, I like to have as much information as possible at my disposal. I play games because I love competition, I grew up playing sports. Personally immersion isn't really ontop of my list for pvp, to me a good pvp makes you feel immersed thorugh how you express yourself with characters. I think a solid middle ground is having the option to have the ui, if people want it why deny them the option. We all play games for our own reasons, so don't push for things that benefit your world view Edit: comparing a pvp game, that's competitive, too 2 old horror games is also an odd choice
do you think games only pull ideas from other games exactly like it? where did overwatch get it's ideas? what about team fortress 2? do you limit your imagination and creativity to only what already exists that's exactly like it? i play only competitive so not sure why you think that playing competitively makes a difference here. if the goal is to win only and you want to use sports as an example that's easy cause the olympics and other sports are not against banning items that go against the heart of the game or things that give an advantage to the players who don't use it. so to the people simply saying "leave it as an option" you can't because it will always give such an advantage you have to have it. that doesn't make the game better by including it. all of your arguments that you use for it are actually arguments against it. there are other better and more creative ways to help tell people health is low without adding more visual clutter and already existing and growing problem in overwatch.
@arinrobinson3898 none of my arguments are against themselves. In fact sports have many examples of optional advantages players/teams have access too. As long as they are not against the rules it's completely ok. Fron equipment such as gloves, too tablets that can give you replays of the play. As long as all competitors have the same options to use these resources, because not all teams and competitors will choose to use them. Either because they are old school, or think they are unnecessary. Or even not in the spirit of the sport. All that matters is that the competitive integrity is still there, so my point in no way defeats itself. Actually when looked into it only reinforces itself. So you really missed with that. Also I have no problem with inspiration coming from other things. That's how progress is absolutely made. But I just think your examples and reasoning failed to land. Because something works well for 2 horror games, doesn't mean stakes sense for overwatch. I think a game mode with no hud would be fun. I'm all for creative, but that's not a reason to not make simple changes the player base wants. If players want immersion they could have it off, if that's what you value more. Here's a middle ground, if players want this middle ground, but you want it to be gameplay what's a creative way to do it? You've offered your criticism, but do you have something constructive to add to the conversation? Because personally I think a sci-fi hero fantasy game, based on team work, that ui element makes a lot of sense to the setting really
@@matthewking7571 who determines the rules and what equipment is banned and why?! the gods?! lol if it's optional but it gives a clear advantage then it is not optional! just like in sports! lol
@arinrobinson3898 depends on the league really, but some sort of committee usually. You're being very condenseding there my guy. No need I'm being respectful. Also there are many things that are optional that give competitive advantages the players in leagues do not use. Yet at the highest level, and all levels in sports players and teams still succeed. Not just succeed, but thrive. So no my point still stands rather strong. So far you haven't refuted anything I've really put forth, nor have you really engaged with much of what I've said. I also asked of you have anything to add, like a solution or middle ground. I'm all for having a genuine conversation, but you seem more interested in being some what passive aggressive
Hidden info is also good for competitiveness. Gathering that info and communicating that info to teammates are skills that shouldn't be understated in a game like overwatch (if we're going for the maximize competitiveness thing). It's a far more involved design choice than just world immersion vs systems immersion, so i don't think letting people just choose is a conclusive solution.
Yes, diegetic vs non-diegetic UI For a competitive game, I want as much crucial information on screen without having to press another button. For the wow example, yes it looks atrocious, but all of the important information is there. In a competitive scenario, all you care about is functionality and efficiency first, immersion 9th. Same for overwatch. I frequently need to know which teammates are dead, whether to engage or run or use ults. If I'm in the middle of the fight, the last thing I want is to press a button and bring a window that covers my screen. In fact it's more immersive with more UI because the action of bringing up the scoreboard is way more unimmersive in and of itself”. And as a game developer as well, you realize that if your players greatly prefer something that improves their awareness, decision making, even if the devs didn't intend it to be the "right way", you make it an option, as long as it doesn't ruin your vision or smth, something like this obviously wouldn't run in Dead Space. My reaction as a player to when I saw the mini scoreboard was "this should have been an option long before, this is great". It isn't massive and stays on the side of the screen, it really doesn't bother. Lazy? Why should I care as a player? To solidify your point you could have shown an example how you would implement an alternative to a scoreboard in OW. I can't think of one personally without creating needless complexity. Sometimes UI is the only way to do it effectively.
I think it's important to think of what gamers are asking for vs what they want. the old henry ford quote "If i asked the people what they wanted they would have said a faster horse." people don't always know what they want until they have it. if it was easy to just hear what gamers wanted and make it then every game would be good. taking into consideration players describing a problem the designers job is to come up with a creative solution to best fit that problem. games are unique in that people learn through play which is why the best games teach everything they can through play. it's not to say that some don't push past this to learn some games the hard way but it is a barrier of entry for many. most won't go online or watch youtube videos to explain the game which is why games should be designed with the idea that everything can be learned through play as much as possible. gameplay is what makes games unique because players want to play and experiment and learn while doing so. the more we let them do that the more rewarded they feel over time. so lets say a problem is "I can't tell when my teammates are dead". the solution to me isn't to just put more UI on the screen to make someone psychic but what can we play with to make it more understandable through play? could character voice lines pop up like cass saying "we're coming back soon big guy" to rein help him understand he's down players? would something similar work if Ana's voiceline automatically happened when rein suddenly leaves LOS for a few seconds? I don't know for sure but this is why testing is the only way to know for sure. creative solutions that revolve around play give people the same thing without needing it to be on screen 24/7 and is easily understood by all players. you are right that i could have done more to provide exact solutions. i might be able to in another video i just figured at the time highlighting other games that did it well and overwatch's examples of doing it right was enough. many want competitive to be efficient in order to win but winning is not the goal of a game developer. i also don't believe winning is as important as people think it is. winning isn't always fun and losing games can sometimes still be fun. my goal isn't to help players win it's to insure they have a fun time whether they win or lose. many of the ideas that come from every day gamers to be honest are terrible, not all but most. if they have a frustration i want to know what that frustration is but lots of times as a designer there are better ways to influence player behavior that don't involve writing everything out. that's what good designers do, they influence you when you don't even know it.
@@colbyboucher6391 I don't think you want UI. What you want is more information. what you think you want then is UI. what i'm advocating for is a more creative solution that allows you to obtain that information through gameplay, rather than ui.
@@arinrobinson3898 Ease of access to information is important. Having "creative" UI decisions doesn't always work as it depends on what the intended goal is. In the case of Overwatch no I don't want Tracer's health and ult on a wristband that you can't always see and then an ammo meter on the side of every gun. No I don't want levels of damage for the characters to try and guess how far they are from death. No I don't want to lose teammate outlines because I want to know what they're doing so I can plan accordingly. This would work in SOME games but not in a game like OW. You sacrifice by having more "creative" UI.
@@arinrobinson3898 "people don't always know what they want until they have it" that exactly proves my point. Devs made a change that is popular and players would like to keep it. The voiceline thing is a bad idea because in the middle of the fight they should be reserved for stuff like ults because there's already a million audio cues going on at the same time. If you add additional voicelines it's just gonna get drowned out by everything else From my experience, the new UI change is less frustrating to me and leads to more fun. I agree with the idea that diegetic UI is way better than plain old static UI, but not the overwatch example
Its funny as hell seeing you argue vs commets saying this should be optional with " i know what you want better than you", not saying the ui element is good or bad just that your ego is showing
I'm not a fan of the terms "good and bad design", because ultimately every design decision has trade-offs that need to be considered against the end goal of the game. For a competitive shooter, I think the main goal with the UI design is visual clarity: the player needs to be able to easily obtain as much information through their UI and POV. Given that OW already suffers from visual clutter, the extra visual clutter this would introduce probably wouldn't be worth it for a problem that can be fixed just by looking around. I still wouldn't be opposed to seeing it tried out though.
I think the problem is awareness more than information. I would prefer we brainstorm solutions to the problems that players can learn through repeated play rather than just more ui. high elo players don't need this ui so the question then becomes how can we give visual or audio cues to teach lower elo players to be more aware of their teams health and positioning? ui doesn't teach it only provides information but if low elo players don't know what to do with that information i'm not sure it's as helpful as other solutions. i prefer to find solutions that teach players how to improve and the winning will naturally come after.
I think the best thing is to do a lot of both: have features indicating important info diegetic in-game while simultaneously having UI that hits the best compromise of being comprehensive but non-intrusive. I'm very biased, but Splatoon 3 is a game that I think achieves this incredibly well. It already had a UI for players just like this one: you could see both teams (not just your own), and at any moment you could just look at the top of the screen and know exactly how many players are alive, which weapons they have, and which ones have their special (ult) ready. But because this UI element is stylized and kept minimal, it never feels overwhelming or like it's adding clutter. The game also does a lot of legwork to help inform you of this stuff diegetically, each time someone dies you can clearly hear it, whenever someone has their special charged their hair starts glowing brightly to indicate that, etc. It all comes together to keep the player as informed as possible without intruding on the gameplay.
you know i've heard good things about platoon but haven't tried it. what you've described though sounds really creative and i'm curious to check it out now so thank you for the recommendation! I'm excited to try it out.
I definitely see where you're coming from. There's a lot of people who don't really have that appreciation or conscious presence in the things they do in life, they just see games as things to be played, not as things to experience. In our lives, just as ui can take you out of actually experiencing the game world in front of you, we get so preoccupied with our inner world and emotions and beliefs that we don't look around and see what is around us. Really I think people want the ui because they just don't like talking to other people, that's it really.
A lot of people seem to think the game is about winning and to a developer that's not the case. if people wanted to win they could just play vs bots. they'd set single player games to easy. they get so worked up thinking what makes overwatch fun is winning but a win is just a result. what it took to get that win is what matters. wins on close games feel far better than stomps. I'm not concerned trying to make sure every player always wins that's impossible. I'm more concerned making sure people have fun losing. making sure that when they lose they want to queue back up. the more players think they just want to win the more they'll change the game to where that's all that matters and people will eventually move onto other games the moment they aren't winning anymore. what people see is UI with information so what they think they want is UI. what they really want is information and my argument is always how can we get that information delivered through play rather than UI. this is a situation where people who lack the creativity cannot comprehend what they cannot see.
People say that since OW is a competitive shooter, there must be a team UI. They don't understand that it takes away from gamesense/awareness. Pressing Tab is a positive habit, but it takes away your ability to see, so it is up to you to gather what is happening with in-world audio and visuals. Also crazy WildStar mention I haven't heard about that game in years.
yeah, I'm more about what can we do to teach the player in game sense and awareness rather than just put more ui on the screen for them to see. they might not even know what to do with that information so to me it's just a bandaid fix to a problem. haha i'm suprised someone even recognized wildstar! I was an artist and system designer on that years ago.
agree with you here, this need is a good example of players believing "I need more info to make good decisions" when in reality the problem is "the info is available to me, i just don't know how to get it and i need it always in my face to help me stay aware" there is a kill feed, there is a scoreboard, this UI request is unnecessary. The more UI you add the more you are cluttering an FPS (i.e i need as much screen real estate to be my FOV and not statistic data) this request could be made Moreso for a 3rd person shooter where less FOV is required to be effective
exactly, what players are saying is "i need this information in the form of UI" and my mind is thinking, how can i give them that same information through gameplay so it doesn't need to be on the screen all the time? high ranking players already don't need this information so i don't believe people want it for the competitive advantage. it's just what they think will make it easier. blocking more of a players vision is something i would want to avoid. overwatch already has so many great ways of relaying information through visuals and sound that i think they could come up with a better solution than this as well.
Worst part is this comment section is filled with people defending that from a "competitive" position. Having to actively look for the info, keep track of it and communicate it to teammates is a skillful process that we can't just brush over because people don't like that they made mistakes because of not knowing something.
I get a bunch of people talking about why they dont fully agree with you for overwatch but i feel like locking onto the overwatch topic or even confining what you said to the genre of pvp isn't the point. When you were discussing bad ui in minigames IMMEDIATELY i thought of games like genshin and others whose goal is literally to immerse you into the world that they've built but they have the exact same cut away minigames that are presented to you in a menu. Thank you for this video!! definitely gave me an insight into design that I havent considered before, and what questions I can ask myself while fleshing out an idea
thank you! it makes me happy to see some people are still focusing on the main point i wanted to make about game design. i use overwatch as a means but ultimately my videos are just about game design.
@@arinrobinson3898 Competitive team game communities are some of the players most needing of learn about game design topics (most hardcore gaming audience that's lacking in taking design i think), and also some of the most stubborn, gamer-y, self-sabotaging players out there. Good luck man, try not to lose yourself in the madness.
This in an interesting point of view, a good conversation to have, and something the devs should keep in mind. *That said, I feel like the benefits the team health bars would bring are far greater than any harm they would cause*
I just think there are better ways to get a similar result without adding more to get in the way. I think the health bars is the fastest easiest way but if we keep opting for the fastest easiest way you end up with world of warcraft which goes against my belief that games should be easy to understand and difficult to master.
extra ui, specifically those that just blatantly give you additional information that players HAVE to learn through actually PLAYING, takes away some of the higher skill ceiling of the game. its little considerations that arent given to you on screen high skill players keep in mind that makes them so much better at the game, thats how its always worked. that on top of more distraction and visual clutter makes this idea of more ui unappealing, what people dont understand is their subconscious mind is whats taking in all the information while they consciously play. even if youre not actively thinking about being immersed in the game, its the immersion most of the time that brings u into flow state and really elevates your play, and excessive ui and stimuli outside of your gameplay often takes away from that. when u get better at the game the things people want as ui will be retained in their subconscious and there wont be a need for it. i think if more ui gets put out it can be very helpful at first for new players, but i think as they get the hang of it theyll turn it off or not need it which eliminates the need for it in the first place. just play the game and youll get better.
exactly! omg i'm so happy some people understand this. I want people to learn and get information through play ultimately subconsciously so it actually improves their play without them realizing it. more UI on the screen gives new players information but doesn't teach them what to do with that information. something they would understand as they get better in the end. people saying they want this because it's a competitive game never made any sense because the better players already track that information to give them the advantage. the problem to me isn't giving players information at the start but what could we design that would help players learn and get better so they don't need the UI just like you stated. very well put, i enjoyed this comment a lot. especially mentioning the flow state when it comes to game design. not many people know that terminology.
I think the allied health bar is a good idea just needs reworking as its too big. In regards to the immersion I just say overwatch agents have a Hud in their eyes or something you also have to remember dead space is a survival game whereas overwatch is a competitive FPS
I didn't have an xbox when i was younger so i'll need to look at that. it sounds like a great way to include UI when you know you have to have it but want it to mesh well with the game.
FFXIV is a great example of what MMO UI should be. Mainly because you have so many options to customize your UI, which justifies the amount of information that could be cluttering your screen otherwise. At this point, it should be standard for any game to customize your UI, at least to some degree.
non-immersive UI isn't necessarily bad, they just have different uses immersive ui is better for gameplay experience, non-immersive ui is better for competitive advantage. The people who want non-immersive ui only care about competitive advantage, not gameplay. so ultimately it's not necessarily immersive vs non-immersive ui but rather whether competitive advantage or better gameplay is prioritized
This is true for games in general, but the criticism falls flat for a competitive game I think. In a game like this, people will do everything in their power to gain a competitive advantage. Lower Settings, abuse color blind modes etc. Almost nobody is trying to be immersed in the world. They are just trying to win, so this becomes very helpful design. I personally don't play games like this regularly but I definitely understand the reason for something like this being in the game and would design it like this as well. If you're trying to play a good *game* in the sense you're describing you ought to look somewhere else than Overwatch...
Hidden info is also good for competitiveness. Gathering that info and communicating that info to teammates are skills that shouldn't be understated in a game like overwatch (if we're going for the maximize competitiveness thing). It's a far more involved design choice than just world immersion vs systems immersion.
@@AluRooftop I'm inclined to agree, but the reality is that most people are not willing to communicate in voice chat. This only happens at the highest level or when playing with friends. This design choice makes it easier for an individual to play to their fullest ability when playing a regular ranked match.
@@Seacle14 I think the contextual pings we have right now are a great substitute for voice chatting in mid-low levels of play, at least as far as conveying information like this is concerned. I can see the positives for the "regular ranked experience", but i just don't value that as much i guess. I'd say that an individual's "fullest ability" includes the awareness to know where to look to get the info they need, and that no one outside a pro level should feel bad for not having that skill.
Hey. I'll agree with "less is more." Lots of people are going to say that comparing PvP and PvE games is not right, so I wanted to mention "Sea of Thieves" as a game with really good UI in my opinion. My friends and I all mentioned that this game really makes you feel the world; it makes you feel like a pirate. This is especially true in peaceful activities. Can Overwatch do a UI like that? I don't think so, but we can definitely make it feel like that while being informative. (and yes "Sea of Thieves" is kinda PvP game. at least we playing that way)
Some go after the PvP vs PvE as an example but games have always pulled ideas from all around. no idea is truly original we all take from each other and iterate to make something new and hopefully improved. overwatch was tf2 and marvel rivals is overwatch. yet they still all play unique to themselves. i'm sure overwatch devs also played borderlands and got some ideas from there as well. people are incredibly limited with how they see what could be possible and it's a shame. that being said i haven't tried Sea of Thieves yet but i'm gonna look into it now based on your recommendation so thank you! would love to see how they come up with a creative UI solution as UI is a very tricky thing to do right in games.
I tend to think that this health ui would improve my game experience, but in the end completely agree. The game and ui is already too cluttered to implement this one. Also to think of it this ui addition is simply to sell the "kingmaker" event, for you too see who the "king" is. If this mode goes through you would just see who is buffed by looking at your team comp. Btw you should totally play dead space, if not the remake, then the original one, even if you dont liie horrors, you won't regret it
in games where the narrative and world is the key appeal, sure. but if I'm coming at a game as a toy to be played with rather than a story to immerse myself in, I don't mind being bluntly presented with stats about the state of that toy
I agree it's lazy design, but not because of the reasons you stated; laziness breeds efficiency, and competitive games are all about efficiency, you know for a FACT that if there was an unbannable script with the most basic unpolished Ariel font health numbers anywhere on the screen, players would be forced to use it in a competitive format, people have done MUCH worse, it already exists in League of Legends, where you literally have a basic font for jungle camp respawns as an application that you can download (Unbannable), and you get an instant advantage from using it, and freeing your mental stack and have the luxury to think about other things, if it was available for all players, it would then dumb down the game massively and increase the skill floor. It's lazy design from the player's perspective, where you already have all the available tools to see your team health bars by just... Looking around, it's not about immersion, it's about putting effort to get that information that's important not to lose, the rhythmic continuation of having ALL the information in a shooter would be "Not doing damage in a fight = Inefficient = Lose".
The people going "hur dur but competitive game" gotta realize that some stuff is better left to leave less available for competitive reasons too. Info gathering and awareness are skills that should be encouraged too. Not having health bars on the screen also enforces team communication as an essential skill to get that info easier, which is something i think ow players care about. Hidden/unavailable info is NOT a bad thing for competitive games and i'm ASTONISHED that people really think that.
right off the jump,,, in real life overwatch you may need your mercy to relay her hitpoints to you every three seconds,,,, so just put it on the dang'd U/I wouldn'tcha?!
Once something gives a competitive advantage it no longer is just optional. My argument is there are better ways than UI to receive information in game design
Seems like a personal preference honestly. I'm curious if you have any creative alternatives to suggest, because you say it's lazy design but don't offer a different idea. Voice lines get drowned out by everything else that is happening, at least for me.
yeah, in hindsight i wish i would have taken time to flesh out more ideas on what i would do personally. i thought giving examples of good UI or when overwatch did it right was enough but i feel now that was wrong. I have done something like that already with a fixing sombra video but just like that video i will say that whatever ideas i come up with I still would not confidently be able to say for sure they would work without testing. games are unique in that playing is the only way to truly know. voice lines are not perfect as you said they do get drowned out. i don't want to rule them out completely as a possible solution. some ideas that come to mind are putting certain voicelines as a prioritization over other sounds. i believe overwatch already does this in some ways as when someone asks for healing you know who said it and where. perhaps the reverse can be done when you hit "X" to say you need healing as a tank or dps you can get an immediate voice line response from the nearest support like Ana to say if you're within sight or not. some automatic voice lines could still be possible. what i also like about this is that you don't need to be in voice chat to communicate this to your team as many don't like to be in voice anymore but also now we're teaching the player to be more aware of his supports positioning. so teaching through play. whether that would be too noisy or distracting would take testing. visually, i wonder if there was a way where when you clicked "I need healing" you could get a better visual indication of where the LOS of your supports was. so you as a tank or dps player could play around that. this one i worry about that visual clutter problem overwatch has already which is why i would test just the audio first. it also wouldn't solve the problem of knowing if your supports are being dove or not but maybe that's a separate issue. what i'm reading is that players want information so they think of that as UI but UI doesn't teach the player what to do correctly with that information. so i look at it more as what is the problem? people can't tell who's alive or dead? you don't know if your team is with you? a mini map and UI is the fastest way to achieve that information but to me at that point you're taking away part of the experience of learning to get better and i don't like that. what makes games fun isn't winning but learning and getting better. winning comes with that. so ultimately designing things that will naturally help the player learn through repeated play are better than just giving them more information. at least that's how i view game design.
this is a competitive hero shooter, its not about immersion or feeling like youre in the world. for pve i 100% would say immersion is more important, but for a competitive shooter game its just not the goal. the issue with this feature is visual clutter. it looks like ass. its just an extra piece of the screen that is blocked, when theres already a lot of visual clutter in the game. but maybe even more importantly, the information of your teammates health is already in the game. just look at them. instead of looking at the little bars on the left of your screen just look at your damn teammates in the game. this feature is terrible because it dumbs down the game more, which is in no way what we need.
U.I.s are not clutter, nor is what you pointed out bad or lazy design. It takes 30 seconds to see someones making up a problem that doesn't exist. I've never once heard ANYONE complain about the U.I being cluttered because theres barley anything on screen anyways. If you're that overwhelmed by a few extra things on your screen, give up gaming its not for you.
I'm literally a game developer and my rank is consistently top like 1-2% playing casually. i think I have an idea of what i'm doing but thanks for your concern.
@arinrobinson3898 Every little bit of that comes off as you dont know and are just trying to seem reliable. What game did you make that means you know exactly what you're talking about and that you'd be the go to authority on it. After about 10 seconds of research I found you LinkedIn and see the studio youve worked for is Grab Games. Which hasnt made anything notiable. That same profile also doesnt have you working on U.I.s bub. You're obviously a failed dev who works on shovelware trash 😂 hating on companies and games that are "bad, or lazy" but make your games look non-existent. Since you're usually the "3D Art Lead" id assume its your fault the games are all dead in the water. 😬 Even funnier, in your LinkedIn says Lead 3D artist yet, you're not a lead even on their offical website. Youre either the Art Director or you arent the lead bub. I was right and wrong, wrong in that you have worked on games, but right to say you dont know what youre talking about because its a bunch of failed nothing games. 😂😂
I really hope they don’t implement this even as a toggle. Awareness is a skill that’s developed in the game and this just lazily eliminates that skill.
exactly, and there's other ways through audio queues or in game visuals that could do the same thing without needing to add it to the UI. everything should be explained through gameplay as much as possible.
People like you are why we can’t have nice things. You could literally use this for ANY quality of life change. Want to see your health bar? Skill issue you should know how much health you have. Wanna know if you team has ults? Just use voice coms and pay attention to their stats Cooldowns? There’s audio ques that tell you when your cooldowns are back. So why is there a visual?
It will just raise the floor but not reduce the cap. There are 0 downsides functionally. In fact it will give bad players less excuses to be bad because the crucial information was plain in sight.
As long as you can toggle it, it’s fine. I would also like to be able to place them where I want them. Having 2 on left 3 on right would make it a lot less cluttered.
You know if they did add it, you could just toggle it off, right? Or are you just here to gatekeep an aptional UI feature that would take literal no dev time as it already exists?
if something is added to a competitive game that gives a clear advantage it is no longer optional to use. this happens in sports already lol how do people still have this opinion when it's not allowed in any other competitive setting.
I agree with your thesis (in essence, but I could nitpick), but not this specific instance. Pressing Tab is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay much more jarring and takes me out so much more than party frames do. If I have party frames I have to press tab less frequently = less UI blocking my screen per game. Pressing Tab just to ask "who is alive, and who has ult?" in the fastest way possible is ridiculously jarring when I am Junker Queen
oh I 100% agree. I have not thought of a unique solution to that problem just yet. i think seeing and being notified of health bars visually in game seems like a much easier problem to solve but if there was a way to get that same information through gameplay without hitting tab i bet overwatch would feel a lot better. i'd much rather come up with a unique solution around that then put in time to just add more UI to the screen for sure.
very good point to bring up.
@@arinrobinson3898 And until such a unique and novel solution comes, I'll be happy with party frames :)
I disagree. The minimalistic UIs trying to hide as much of the UI as possible are one of the worst plagues of modern gaming. Bring back old, proper UIs
0:09 in the case of the overwatch Ui, I agree and disagree BUT mostly agree.
1) being a PvP centered competitive hero game, information is needed, commnication is integral to competitive play, and unfortunately there is people who aren't good at that or aren't vocal at all.
2) Agree that it's bad in the aspect that any DPS, in this image's case tracer, very pointless to have especially if you're a tank. as a dps your main concentration is should be Annoying the enemy team, disrupt them, eliminate them, etc. Tank should only worry about defending the team so they can advance or Dive onto the team and cause disruption to their defensive flow.
3) where i disagree heavily is it's a bad implementation, sort of. Healers would in fact need this information HOWEVER, there is already Ui elements and other forms of feedback for the healers to take action ( Voice lines, Player request healing Voice lines, Health bars on top of characters form the healer POV, and Health need icons in HUd for healers).
I like how Sombra’s shooting SFX sound different when her ammo is low
exactly! this is fantastic audio design to give you more information without feeding it through UI. I think overwatch can do more of that.
for a competitive game i don’t think adding some extra information to a UI that isn’t in all honesty all that cluttered to begin with we don’t play a competitive game to be „immersed in the world” this ain’t red dead redemption or any other story game for me to want to be immersed, so i kinda need the info, personally when you disabled the HUD i didn’t feel immersed i just felt confused because i didn’t have the information i need in order to play my character anymore, also even tho i’m not necessarily advocating for adding this feature, i can definitely see why people would want it and i don’t think it would cause clutter it would genuinely benefit people who just go all in not realizing their team is just dead
ok lets say hypothetically we just include all the information on the screen. we add the health bars, ult timers, friendly respawns, enemy respawns, damage numbers, etc... all on the screen at once. since it gives a strategic advantage to include all that information at all times what is stopping us from doing that? would you think that would make the game better? and do you think there are other ways to communicate that same information through gameplay rather than just UI?
@ again, i’m not for it nor against it, my point is i don’t think this feature can be considered „clutter” the OW UI was never really cluttered it was always pretty straight forward, as for getting the information about someone’s death or someone being low HP, supports who require it the most already have that information tied to the allies themselves and there is a sound effect you can turn on in the settings for when one of your teammates dies, only real winner from this feature would be tank and dps players that don’t pay much attention to their own backline
For immersion, the ui is simply in the characters actual vision via augmented reality goggles
Not everyone plays the game to be immersed in it. Would I like the extra ui, yes, I like to have as much information as possible at my disposal. I play games because I love competition, I grew up playing sports. Personally immersion isn't really ontop of my list for pvp, to me a good pvp makes you feel immersed thorugh how you express yourself with characters.
I think a solid middle ground is having the option to have the ui, if people want it why deny them the option. We all play games for our own reasons, so don't push for things that benefit your world view
Edit: comparing a pvp game, that's competitive, too 2 old horror games is also an odd choice
do you think games only pull ideas from other games exactly like it? where did overwatch get it's ideas? what about team fortress 2? do you limit your imagination and creativity to only what already exists that's exactly like it?
i play only competitive so not sure why you think that playing competitively makes a difference here. if the goal is to win only and you want to use sports as an example that's easy cause the olympics and other sports are not against banning items that go against the heart of the game or things that give an advantage to the players who don't use it. so to the people simply saying "leave it as an option" you can't because it will always give such an advantage you have to have it. that doesn't make the game better by including it.
all of your arguments that you use for it are actually arguments against it. there are other better and more creative ways to help tell people health is low without adding more visual clutter and already existing and growing problem in overwatch.
@arinrobinson3898 none of my arguments are against themselves. In fact sports have many examples of optional advantages players/teams have access too. As long as they are not against the rules it's completely ok. Fron equipment such as gloves, too tablets that can give you replays of the play. As long as all competitors have the same options to use these resources, because not all teams and competitors will choose to use them. Either because they are old school, or think they are unnecessary. Or even not in the spirit of the sport. All that matters is that the competitive integrity is still there, so my point in no way defeats itself. Actually when looked into it only reinforces itself. So you really missed with that.
Also I have no problem with inspiration coming from other things. That's how progress is absolutely made. But I just think your examples and reasoning failed to land. Because something works well for 2 horror games, doesn't mean stakes sense for overwatch. I think a game mode with no hud would be fun. I'm all for creative, but that's not a reason to not make simple changes the player base wants. If players want immersion they could have it off, if that's what you value more.
Here's a middle ground, if players want this middle ground, but you want it to be gameplay what's a creative way to do it? You've offered your criticism, but do you have something constructive to add to the conversation? Because personally I think a sci-fi hero fantasy game, based on team work, that ui element makes a lot of sense to the setting really
@@matthewking7571 who determines the rules and what equipment is banned and why?! the gods?! lol if it's optional but it gives a clear advantage then it is not optional! just like in sports! lol
@arinrobinson3898 depends on the league really, but some sort of committee usually. You're being very condenseding there my guy. No need I'm being respectful. Also there are many things that are optional that give competitive advantages the players in leagues do not use. Yet at the highest level, and all levels in sports players and teams still succeed. Not just succeed, but thrive. So no my point still stands rather strong.
So far you haven't refuted anything I've really put forth, nor have you really engaged with much of what I've said. I also asked of you have anything to add, like a solution or middle ground. I'm all for having a genuine conversation, but you seem more interested in being some what passive aggressive
Hidden info is also good for competitiveness. Gathering that info and communicating that info to teammates are skills that shouldn't be understated in a game like overwatch (if we're going for the maximize competitiveness thing). It's a far more involved design choice than just world immersion vs systems immersion, so i don't think letting people just choose is a conclusive solution.
Yes, diegetic vs non-diegetic UI
For a competitive game, I want as much crucial information on screen without having to press another button. For the wow example, yes it looks atrocious, but all of the important information is there. In a competitive scenario, all you care about is functionality and efficiency first, immersion 9th.
Same for overwatch. I frequently need to know which teammates are dead, whether to engage or run or use ults. If I'm in the middle of the fight, the last thing I want is to press a button and bring a window that covers my screen. In fact it's more immersive with more UI because the action of bringing up the scoreboard is way more unimmersive in and of itself”.
And as a game developer as well, you realize that if your players greatly prefer something that improves their awareness, decision making, even if the devs didn't intend it to be the "right way", you make it an option, as long as it doesn't ruin your vision or smth, something like this obviously wouldn't run in Dead Space.
My reaction as a player to when I saw the mini scoreboard was "this should have been an option long before, this is great". It isn't massive and stays on the side of the screen, it really doesn't bother. Lazy? Why should I care as a player?
To solidify your point you could have shown an example how you would implement an alternative to a scoreboard in OW. I can't think of one personally without creating needless complexity. Sometimes UI is the only way to do it effectively.
I think it's important to think of what gamers are asking for vs what they want. the old henry ford quote "If i asked the people what they wanted they would have said a faster horse." people don't always know what they want until they have it. if it was easy to just hear what gamers wanted and make it then every game would be good.
taking into consideration players describing a problem the designers job is to come up with a creative solution to best fit that problem. games are unique in that people learn through play which is why the best games teach everything they can through play. it's not to say that some don't push past this to learn some games the hard way but it is a barrier of entry for many. most won't go online or watch youtube videos to explain the game which is why games should be designed with the idea that everything can be learned through play as much as possible. gameplay is what makes games unique because players want to play and experiment and learn while doing so. the more we let them do that the more rewarded they feel over time.
so lets say a problem is "I can't tell when my teammates are dead". the solution to me isn't to just put more UI on the screen to make someone psychic but what can we play with to make it more understandable through play? could character voice lines pop up like cass saying "we're coming back soon big guy" to rein help him understand he's down players? would something similar work if Ana's voiceline automatically happened when rein suddenly leaves LOS for a few seconds? I don't know for sure but this is why testing is the only way to know for sure. creative solutions that revolve around play give people the same thing without needing it to be on screen 24/7 and is easily understood by all players. you are right that i could have done more to provide exact solutions. i might be able to in another video i just figured at the time highlighting other games that did it well and overwatch's examples of doing it right was enough.
many want competitive to be efficient in order to win but winning is not the goal of a game developer. i also don't believe winning is as important as people think it is. winning isn't always fun and losing games can sometimes still be fun. my goal isn't to help players win it's to insure they have a fun time whether they win or lose. many of the ideas that come from every day gamers to be honest are terrible, not all but most. if they have a frustration i want to know what that frustration is but lots of times as a designer there are better ways to influence player behavior that don't involve writing everything out. that's what good designers do, they influence you when you don't even know it.
@@arinrobinson3898 I want more UI. One of my favorite things about Deadlock is that it actually gives me all of the information I need.
@@colbyboucher6391 I don't think you want UI. What you want is more information. what you think you want then is UI. what i'm advocating for is a more creative solution that allows you to obtain that information through gameplay, rather than ui.
@@arinrobinson3898 Ease of access to information is important. Having "creative" UI decisions doesn't always work as it depends on what the intended goal is. In the case of Overwatch no I don't want Tracer's health and ult on a wristband that you can't always see and then an ammo meter on the side of every gun. No I don't want levels of damage for the characters to try and guess how far they are from death. No I don't want to lose teammate outlines because I want to know what they're doing so I can plan accordingly. This would work in SOME games but not in a game like OW. You sacrifice by having more "creative" UI.
@@arinrobinson3898 "people don't always know what they want until they have it" that exactly proves my point. Devs made a change that is popular and players would like to keep it.
The voiceline thing is a bad idea because in the middle of the fight they should be reserved for stuff like ults because there's already a million audio cues going on at the same time. If you add additional voicelines it's just gonna get drowned out by everything else
From my experience, the new UI change is less frustrating to me and leads to more fun.
I agree with the idea that diegetic UI is way better than plain old static UI, but not the overwatch example
Its funny as hell seeing you argue vs commets saying this should be optional with " i know what you want better than you", not saying the ui element is good or bad just that your ego is showing
I'm not a fan of the terms "good and bad design", because ultimately every design decision has trade-offs that need to be considered against the end goal of the game. For a competitive shooter, I think the main goal with the UI design is visual clarity: the player needs to be able to easily obtain as much information through their UI and POV. Given that OW already suffers from visual clutter, the extra visual clutter this would introduce probably wouldn't be worth it for a problem that can be fixed just by looking around. I still wouldn't be opposed to seeing it tried out though.
I think the problem is awareness more than information. I would prefer we brainstorm solutions to the problems that players can learn through repeated play rather than just more ui. high elo players don't need this ui so the question then becomes how can we give visual or audio cues to teach lower elo players to be more aware of their teams health and positioning? ui doesn't teach it only provides information but if low elo players don't know what to do with that information i'm not sure it's as helpful as other solutions. i prefer to find solutions that teach players how to improve and the winning will naturally come after.
I think the best thing is to do a lot of both: have features indicating important info diegetic in-game while simultaneously having UI that hits the best compromise of being comprehensive but non-intrusive. I'm very biased, but Splatoon 3 is a game that I think achieves this incredibly well. It already had a UI for players just like this one: you could see both teams (not just your own), and at any moment you could just look at the top of the screen and know exactly how many players are alive, which weapons they have, and which ones have their special (ult) ready. But because this UI element is stylized and kept minimal, it never feels overwhelming or like it's adding clutter. The game also does a lot of legwork to help inform you of this stuff diegetically, each time someone dies you can clearly hear it, whenever someone has their special charged their hair starts glowing brightly to indicate that, etc. It all comes together to keep the player as informed as possible without intruding on the gameplay.
you know i've heard good things about platoon but haven't tried it. what you've described though sounds really creative and i'm curious to check it out now so thank you for the recommendation! I'm excited to try it out.
I definitely see where you're coming from. There's a lot of people who don't really have that appreciation or conscious presence in the things they do in life, they just see games as things to be played, not as things to experience. In our lives, just as ui can take you out of actually experiencing the game world in front of you, we get so preoccupied with our inner world and emotions and beliefs that we don't look around and see what is around us. Really I think people want the ui because they just don't like talking to other people, that's it really.
A lot of people seem to think the game is about winning and to a developer that's not the case. if people wanted to win they could just play vs bots. they'd set single player games to easy. they get so worked up thinking what makes overwatch fun is winning but a win is just a result. what it took to get that win is what matters. wins on close games feel far better than stomps. I'm not concerned trying to make sure every player always wins that's impossible. I'm more concerned making sure people have fun losing. making sure that when they lose they want to queue back up. the more players think they just want to win the more they'll change the game to where that's all that matters and people will eventually move onto other games the moment they aren't winning anymore.
what people see is UI with information so what they think they want is UI. what they really want is information and my argument is always how can we get that information delivered through play rather than UI. this is a situation where people who lack the creativity cannot comprehend what they cannot see.
i haven't thought much about this! really good examples in real games, thanks!
Thank you for watching! any information we can receive in gameplay is always better than more UI.
People say that since OW is a competitive shooter, there must be a team UI. They don't understand that it takes away from gamesense/awareness. Pressing Tab is a positive habit, but it takes away your ability to see, so it is up to you to gather what is happening with in-world audio and visuals.
Also crazy WildStar mention I haven't heard about that game in years.
yeah, I'm more about what can we do to teach the player in game sense and awareness rather than just put more ui on the screen for them to see. they might not even know what to do with that information so to me it's just a bandaid fix to a problem.
haha i'm suprised someone even recognized wildstar! I was an artist and system designer on that years ago.
agree with you here, this need is a good example of players believing "I need more info to make good decisions" when in reality the problem is "the info is available to me, i just don't know how to get it and i need it always in my face to help me stay aware" there is a kill feed, there is a scoreboard, this UI request is unnecessary. The more UI you add the more you are cluttering an FPS (i.e i need as much screen real estate to be my FOV and not statistic data) this request could be made Moreso for a 3rd person shooter where less FOV is required to be effective
exactly, what players are saying is "i need this information in the form of UI" and my mind is thinking, how can i give them that same information through gameplay so it doesn't need to be on the screen all the time? high ranking players already don't need this information so i don't believe people want it for the competitive advantage. it's just what they think will make it easier. blocking more of a players vision is something i would want to avoid. overwatch already has so many great ways of relaying information through visuals and sound that i think they could come up with a better solution than this as well.
Worst part is this comment section is filled with people defending that from a "competitive" position. Having to actively look for the info, keep track of it and communicate it to teammates is a skillful process that we can't just brush over because people don't like that they made mistakes because of not knowing something.
I get a bunch of people talking about why they dont fully agree with you for overwatch but i feel like locking onto the overwatch topic or even confining what you said to the genre of pvp isn't the point. When you were discussing bad ui in minigames IMMEDIATELY i thought of games like genshin and others whose goal is literally to immerse you into the world that they've built but they have the exact same cut away minigames that are presented to you in a menu.
Thank you for this video!! definitely gave me an insight into design that I havent considered before, and what questions I can ask myself while fleshing out an idea
thank you! it makes me happy to see some people are still focusing on the main point i wanted to make about game design. i use overwatch as a means but ultimately my videos are just about game design.
@@arinrobinson3898 Competitive team game communities are some of the players most needing of learn about game design topics (most hardcore gaming audience that's lacking in taking design i think), and also some of the most stubborn, gamer-y, self-sabotaging players out there. Good luck man, try not to lose yourself in the madness.
This in an interesting point of view, a good conversation to have, and something the devs should keep in mind.
*That said, I feel like the benefits the team health bars would bring are far greater than any harm they would cause*
I just think there are better ways to get a similar result without adding more to get in the way. I think the health bars is the fastest easiest way but if we keep opting for the fastest easiest way you end up with world of warcraft which goes against my belief that games should be easy to understand and difficult to master.
you know you could just add the option to turn it on or off lmao
extra ui, specifically those that just blatantly give you additional information that players HAVE to learn through actually PLAYING, takes away some of the higher skill ceiling of the game. its little considerations that arent given to you on screen high skill players keep in mind that makes them so much better at the game, thats how its always worked. that on top of more distraction and visual clutter makes this idea of more ui unappealing, what people dont understand is their subconscious mind is whats taking in all the information while they consciously play. even if youre not actively thinking about being immersed in the game, its the immersion most of the time that brings u into flow state and really elevates your play, and excessive ui and stimuli outside of your gameplay often takes away from that. when u get better at the game the things people want as ui will be retained in their subconscious and there wont be a need for it. i think if more ui gets put out it can be very helpful at first for new players, but i think as they get the hang of it theyll turn it off or not need it which eliminates the need for it in the first place. just play the game and youll get better.
exactly! omg i'm so happy some people understand this. I want people to learn and get information through play ultimately subconsciously so it actually improves their play without them realizing it. more UI on the screen gives new players information but doesn't teach them what to do with that information. something they would understand as they get better in the end. people saying they want this because it's a competitive game never made any sense because the better players already track that information to give them the advantage. the problem to me isn't giving players information at the start but what could we design that would help players learn and get better so they don't need the UI just like you stated.
very well put, i enjoyed this comment a lot. especially mentioning the flow state when it comes to game design. not many people know that terminology.
I think the allied health bar is a good idea just needs reworking as its too big. In regards to the immersion I just say overwatch agents have a Hud in their eyes or something you also have to remember dead space is a survival game whereas overwatch is a competitive FPS
Halo has a pretty good ui imo kinda feels like what you would see through master cheif's helmet
I didn't have an xbox when i was younger so i'll need to look at that. it sounds like a great way to include UI when you know you have to have it but want it to mesh well with the game.
FFXIV is a great example of what MMO UI should be. Mainly because you have so many options to customize your UI, which justifies the amount of information that could be cluttering your screen otherwise. At this point, it should be standard for any game to customize your UI, at least to some degree.
ooh i've not seen it but i'll check it out! thanks for letting me know!
the devs could build on the idea of the healing supports having circular health bars and just do that for the whole team
non-immersive UI isn't necessarily bad, they just have different uses
immersive ui is better for gameplay experience, non-immersive ui is better for competitive advantage. The people who want non-immersive ui only care about competitive advantage, not gameplay.
so ultimately it's not necessarily immersive vs non-immersive ui but rather whether competitive advantage or better gameplay is prioritized
This is true for games in general, but the criticism falls flat for a competitive game I think. In a game like this, people will do everything in their power to gain a competitive advantage. Lower Settings, abuse color blind modes etc. Almost nobody is trying to be immersed in the world. They are just trying to win, so this becomes very helpful design. I personally don't play games like this regularly but I definitely understand the reason for something like this being in the game and would design it like this as well.
If you're trying to play a good *game* in the sense you're describing you ought to look somewhere else than Overwatch...
Hidden info is also good for competitiveness. Gathering that info and communicating that info to teammates are skills that shouldn't be understated in a game like overwatch (if we're going for the maximize competitiveness thing). It's a far more involved design choice than just world immersion vs systems immersion.
@@AluRooftop I'm inclined to agree, but the reality is that most people are not willing to communicate in voice chat. This only happens at the highest level or when playing with friends.
This design choice makes it easier for an individual to play to their fullest ability when playing a regular ranked match.
@@Seacle14 I think the contextual pings we have right now are a great substitute for voice chatting in mid-low levels of play, at least as far as conveying information like this is concerned. I can see the positives for the "regular ranked experience", but i just don't value that as much i guess. I'd say that an individual's "fullest ability" includes the awareness to know where to look to get the info they need, and that no one outside a pro level should feel bad for not having that skill.
@@Seacle14 Again i think it's moreso that i don't really value "ranked ladder experience" like a lot of people nowadays do
Hey. I'll agree with "less is more." Lots of people are going to say that comparing PvP and PvE games is not right, so I wanted to mention "Sea of Thieves" as a game with really good UI in my opinion. My friends and I all mentioned that this game really makes you feel the world; it makes you feel like a pirate. This is especially true in peaceful activities. Can Overwatch do a UI like that? I don't think so, but we can definitely make it feel like that while being informative. (and yes "Sea of Thieves" is kinda PvP game. at least we playing that way)
Some go after the PvP vs PvE as an example but games have always pulled ideas from all around. no idea is truly original we all take from each other and iterate to make something new and hopefully improved. overwatch was tf2 and marvel rivals is overwatch. yet they still all play unique to themselves. i'm sure overwatch devs also played borderlands and got some ideas from there as well. people are incredibly limited with how they see what could be possible and it's a shame. that being said i haven't tried Sea of Thieves yet but i'm gonna look into it now based on your recommendation so thank you! would love to see how they come up with a creative UI solution as UI is a very tricky thing to do right in games.
I think more customization options is good for everyone
I tend to think that this health ui would improve my game experience, but in the end completely agree. The game and ui is already too cluttered to implement this one.
Also to think of it this ui addition is simply to sell the "kingmaker" event, for you too see who the "king" is. If this mode goes through you would just see who is buffed by looking at your team comp.
Btw you should totally play dead space, if not the remake, then the original one, even if you dont liie horrors, you won't regret it
in games where the narrative and world is the key appeal, sure. but if I'm coming at a game as a toy to be played with rather than a story to immerse myself in, I don't mind being bluntly presented with stats about the state of that toy
I agree it's lazy design, but not because of the reasons you stated; laziness breeds efficiency, and competitive games are all about efficiency, you know for a FACT that if there was an unbannable script with the most basic unpolished Ariel font health numbers anywhere on the screen, players would be forced to use it in a competitive format, people have done MUCH worse, it already exists in League of Legends, where you literally have a basic font for jungle camp respawns as an application that you can download (Unbannable), and you get an instant advantage from using it, and freeing your mental stack and have the luxury to think about other things, if it was available for all players, it would then dumb down the game massively and increase the skill floor.
It's lazy design from the player's perspective, where you already have all the available tools to see your team health bars by just... Looking around, it's not about immersion, it's about putting effort to get that information that's important not to lose, the rhythmic continuation of having ALL the information in a shooter would be "Not doing damage in a fight = Inefficient = Lose".
Really interesting perspective, and yeah I gotta say whenever I see UI like WoW's I lose all interest in a game.
The people going "hur dur but competitive game" gotta realize that some stuff is better left to leave less available for competitive reasons too. Info gathering and awareness are skills that should be encouraged too. Not having health bars on the screen also enforces team communication as an essential skill to get that info easier, which is something i think ow players care about. Hidden/unavailable info is NOT a bad thing for competitive games and i'm ASTONISHED that people really think that.
OMG EXACTLY! i'm so happy someone understands this!
right off the jump,,, in real life overwatch you may need your mercy to relay her hitpoints to you every three seconds,,,, so just put it on the dang'd U/I wouldn'tcha?!
why not give people the option to turn it on and have it off by default though?
Once something gives a competitive advantage it no longer is just optional. My argument is there are better ways than UI to receive information in game design
I think what you are looking for is the best solution. But best is the enemy of the good.
@@omidood I'm a designer, it's our job to figure out unique solutions to problems. If anyone could do it we wouldn't need them.
Seems like a personal preference honestly. I'm curious if you have any creative alternatives to suggest, because you say it's lazy design but don't offer a different idea. Voice lines get drowned out by everything else that is happening, at least for me.
yeah, in hindsight i wish i would have taken time to flesh out more ideas on what i would do personally. i thought giving examples of good UI or when overwatch did it right was enough but i feel now that was wrong.
I have done something like that already with a fixing sombra video but just like that video i will say that whatever ideas i come up with I still would not confidently be able to say for sure they would work without testing. games are unique in that playing is the only way to truly know.
voice lines are not perfect as you said they do get drowned out. i don't want to rule them out completely as a possible solution. some ideas that come to mind are putting certain voicelines as a prioritization over other sounds. i believe overwatch already does this in some ways as when someone asks for healing you know who said it and where. perhaps the reverse can be done when you hit "X" to say you need healing as a tank or dps you can get an immediate voice line response from the nearest support like Ana to say if you're within sight or not. some automatic voice lines could still be possible. what i also like about this is that you don't need to be in voice chat to communicate this to your team as many don't like to be in voice anymore but also now we're teaching the player to be more aware of his supports positioning. so teaching through play. whether that would be too noisy or distracting would take testing.
visually, i wonder if there was a way where when you clicked "I need healing" you could get a better visual indication of where the LOS of your supports was. so you as a tank or dps player could play around that. this one i worry about that visual clutter problem overwatch has already which is why i would test just the audio first. it also wouldn't solve the problem of knowing if your supports are being dove or not but maybe that's a separate issue.
what i'm reading is that players want information so they think of that as UI but UI doesn't teach the player what to do correctly with that information. so i look at it more as what is the problem? people can't tell who's alive or dead? you don't know if your team is with you? a mini map and UI is the fastest way to achieve that information but to me at that point you're taking away part of the experience of learning to get better and i don't like that. what makes games fun isn't winning but learning and getting better. winning comes with that. so ultimately designing things that will naturally help the player learn through repeated play are better than just giving them more information. at least that's how i view game design.
this is a competitive hero shooter, its not about immersion or feeling like youre in the world. for pve i 100% would say immersion is more important, but for a competitive shooter game its just not the goal. the issue with this feature is visual clutter. it looks like ass. its just an extra piece of the screen that is blocked, when theres already a lot of visual clutter in the game. but maybe even more importantly, the information of your teammates health is already in the game. just look at them. instead of looking at the little bars on the left of your screen just look at your damn teammates in the game. this feature is terrible because it dumbs down the game more, which is in no way what we need.
overwatch ain’t The Last of Us bro pack it up
who you ? ok by e
1:45 no no no,,, overwatch is a video game sport,,, we need maximum U/I don't listen to this guy :)
L take.
Make it a setting. If you don’t like it then turn it off.
it could easily be optional bruh
Anything that gives an advantage in a competitive setting is no longer optional.
24/7 team status is a no brainer. More awareness for free for your whole team.
Don't like it, turn it off. Video over.
U.I.s are not clutter, nor is what you pointed out bad or lazy design. It takes 30 seconds to see someones making up a problem that doesn't exist. I've never once heard ANYONE complain about the U.I being cluttered because theres barley anything on screen anyways. If you're that overwhelmed by a few extra things on your screen, give up gaming its not for you.
I'm literally a game developer and my rank is consistently top like 1-2% playing casually. i think I have an idea of what i'm doing but thanks for your concern.
@arinrobinson3898 Every little bit of that comes off as you dont know and are just trying to seem reliable. What game did you make that means you know exactly what you're talking about and that you'd be the go to authority on it. After about 10 seconds of research I found you LinkedIn and see the studio youve worked for is Grab Games. Which hasnt made anything notiable. That same profile also doesnt have you working on U.I.s bub. You're obviously a failed dev who works on shovelware trash 😂 hating on companies and games that are "bad, or lazy" but make your games look non-existent. Since you're usually the "3D Art Lead" id assume its your fault the games are all dead in the water. 😬 Even funnier, in your LinkedIn says Lead 3D artist yet, you're not a lead even on their offical website. Youre either the Art Director or you arent the lead bub. I was right and wrong, wrong in that you have worked on games, but right to say you dont know what youre talking about because its a bunch of failed nothing games. 😂😂
@arinrobinson3898 Even your art station failed 😂
@@jinxx8456 I haven't updated that in over a decade cause i never had to lol it's weird you would stalk me.
Man I'm glad you're not a developer
I really hope they don’t implement this even as a toggle. Awareness is a skill that’s developed in the game and this just lazily eliminates that skill.
exactly, and there's other ways through audio queues or in game visuals that could do the same thing without needing to add it to the UI. everything should be explained through gameplay as much as possible.
People like you are why we can’t have nice things. You could literally use this for ANY quality of life change.
Want to see your health bar? Skill issue you should know how much health you have.
Wanna know if you team has ults? Just use voice coms and pay attention to their stats
Cooldowns? There’s audio ques that tell you when your cooldowns are back. So why is there a visual?
Terrible take
@@northstar_6585 terrible response
It will just raise the floor but not reduce the cap. There are 0 downsides functionally. In fact it will give bad players less excuses to be bad because the crucial information was plain in sight.
As long as you can toggle it, it’s fine. I would also like to be able to place them where I want them. Having 2 on left 3 on right would make it a lot less cluttered.
You know if they did add it, you could just toggle it off, right? Or are you just here to gatekeep an aptional UI feature that would take literal no dev time as it already exists?
if something is added to a competitive game that gives a clear advantage it is no longer optional to use. this happens in sports already lol how do people still have this opinion when it's not allowed in any other competitive setting.
@arinrobinson3898 you seem like a candle manufacturer mad that you're losing business to lightbulbs
hmm
terrible video,,, looking forward to the next one
such a stupid video
Such A Bad Take