Citing Win Rates Only Works When Heroes are Designed Well to Begin With.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ธ.ค. 2024
- Winrates are just data and how we interpret that data matters. Winrates are great for kits that already feel fair. They're not great for kits broken or frustrating by design. With all design and balance things must be taken with context. Are win rates low because something is weak or because the design encourages you to do something wrong? We don't want to fall into survivorship bias and end up buffing the parts that don't need buffing cause we're misinterpreting data.
/ arin_robinson
winrates aren't just an excuse of the players but also the devs cuz a popular hero that they made purely to sell skins will almost never be balanced
Yeah... Hard to see it any other way as a player sometimes. Instead of reworking Kiri Sombra takes the heat every time.
sombra is the way it is because of widowmaker not because of kiriko, without a widow in the game you dont need a sombra
@@KCrucis funny because sombra was originally made to counter ability-heavy heroes like genji, tanks etc because of the long hack ability lockout time. Now she's made to become an assassin because of solo tank.
Sincerely, the invulnerability is the primary thing about her kit that makes me angry. I mean yeah, it is only ⅔ of a second, but I've seen maugas I've had down to 300 health wildly out of position go up to 500 health and get enough armor back that I started to get outhealed by all the healing coming his way, solely because kiri looked at the ground and pressed E.
Seeing someone's stupid mistakes not getting punished because of someone else's play is never going to be fun, especially when there's nothing you can do about it.
Yeah that's because someone thought it was a good idea to make suzu heal. It heals 80 no matter, and 110 on effect cleanse. And after the season 9 changes with the addition of the DPS support passive, 99% the person getting suzu'd will have that effect and get healed for 110. And kiri vs jq may as well go to 100% since jq's bleed counts too.
In addition to that, it's also because it takes less healing to add armor than damage to remove it. If you do 20 damage to an armored target they loose 13 armor hitpoints. And all a support needs to do to return that target's hp to normal is to heal 13 hitpoints not the 20 damage done. It's a disparity that makes armored targets a fair bit more powerful and tankier. It's also the reason why once you reach the breakpoint of their armor to regular hp they may suddenly pop.
Balacing needs a standard. For that I'm proposing the "Soldier test":
- If It's a nightmare to play Soldier in that meta. No matter how healthy the meta sounds, the cancer will form sooner or later
- If the state of the game is not miserable to play as Soldier - the FPS hero, then it's fine
If you think about it, the only time Soldier was playable was when Blizzard forgot to nerf him (LMAO), and accidentally create the most healthy meta for OW2:
1. Every player in the team can make impactful plays since you can deal with Soldier using any hero you want
2. No resource pouring onto Sojourn or whatever broken hero Blizzard has and will release
3. No oneshot bullshit since it's kinda stink to pair Soldier with Widow or Hanzo
I don't think Suzu is the biggest issue. It's the small hurtbox combined with swift step & wall climb.
Essentially she is able to disengage at will any time you should have her cornered, with low downtime of being really vulnerable.
If we compare it to someone like Lucio, sure he has crazy mobility, but him and Mercy do at least cross physical space. The devs don't seem to realize actual teleports are very different than quickly moving.
I'm not sure I entirely get your point on her not having options. She can play more like Bap, healing and weaving damage, or more flanky because she has the swift step and wall climb.
Her Suzu also can be used offensively to enable Ults like Blossom. But point granted that it is overwhelmingly defensive.
I've always felt the trick to making immortality abilities fair & fun is the duration. They need to be so brief that they are skillshots. I think Bap Lamp needs a duration reduction. Suzu is a fair duration but probably shouldn't also heal.
the really low downtime of vulnerability is such a big deal i wonder how suzu would be on someone who didn't have that ability to get out as easily. i wonder if i would feel any differently. the combination of everything in her kit just makes things super frustrating for anyone playing against her. i don't think immortalities can ever be a great fit for the game but i will say you have made me think about how i may hate suzu a bit more specifically because of it's combination with swift step and wall climb.
as far as options i mean that the suzu is uncreative in that is mostly reactive. yes you can preemptively drop it on blossom like you said but 99% of the time it's just used to deny a kill from someone stepping out of place. i tend to ignore niche instances of abilities. since it's only used that 1 way she really doesn't have as many options as to what she can do with it. if she had an ability that was offensive or defensive like ana's nade she could choose to make a play or hold it for a defensive one. that type of ability would provide choice for her but also since she would then be motivated to use her ability proactively it would also leave her more vulnerable instead of just saying "ok lets do enough damage to force suzu first". her healing papers are also really lame and just automatically float. imagine instead she had actual papers she stuck to people that would heal over time and she had a limited number to place at once. but also those papers are things players could walk over to pick up. now she can place healing on people and focus on damage. she can place papers in areas where she can't see players but they could walk to pick them up. and now we've opened up what she can do by making something not automatic and giving her ways to have more skill expression as well as agency over the game.
fights shouldn't revolve around single immortalities. like shielding an ana nade or blinking a cassidy flash there are interactions between players that make you feel like you outplayed the person in front of you. forcing suzu isn't outplaying it's just somethign you feel you have to do and it doesn't feel good. timing your abilities to predict and outplay your opponent though always feels good and both players can lose those duels and say "i fucked up but i can get them next time" and that is the most important part of gameplay that overwatch 2 is missing.
@@arinrobinson3898 I agree, I mean the fundamental difference for me between antinade and suzu is that if Ana wants to land a nade on enemies from normal Ana positioning (relative safety from controlled space), you have to navigate that nade through bodies, barriers and cover to get good value on it, and that's not mentioning that timing so that it strikes when enemies are able to be engaged on.
And Ana can take a more aggressive angle that makes good nades easier, but that's also riskier for her.
But Suzu doesn't have any of that shit in the way because it's going on your own team. I think it could be a cool ability if it was a skillshot like it had no AoE and had to hit someone directly, and it wasn't on the kit of the same hero who can just TP to someone for an unmissable suzu at the feet.
Basically it would be a cooler ability on someone like Ana.
On that note, as someone that has played way too much Moira, more skill expression would just be a great change to her kit. Right now her skill expression feels like 95% about Fade jumps/techs.
I've played a lot of Moira so I get it. She's mostly about being a pest and distracting and fading away. She has a hard time "outplaying" someone with her team. She's one I would heavily need to brainstorm on because I wouldn't want to ruin what Moira players love about her already. It's fun to think about though.
@@arinrobinson3898I'd be interested to see what you come up with. I've racked my brain but I can't think of any ideas that don't touch her auto aim beam. The problem being that that's both the core of her character and an important feature in making overwatch more accessible.
@@yoku_UwU You could leave the heal as-is, but not everything in her kit needs to have its value near the skill floor. The damage beam is not auto-aim, it's just too big to be practical for expressing any skill (trying to track a target when there's multiple enemies on screen is a nightmare)
@@arinrobinson3898 For me it has been centered around Fade, and how it enabled me to take fights in really awkward and aggressive spots. I know some dedicated Moira players are healbots, but they also have LW and Mercy to pick. For me the thrill has always been that I always have the option to be active, and proactive in a way higher degree than any other support. For example, I love playing with an aggressive Winton or Rein and dive in with them as Moira. Though at her core it's the ability to flex from flanking/taking an angle, to then go heal a brawl, and then go back to dive a support or widow (for example) that I can punish.
Though on my way to Diamond I've noticed that it's just way easier to for example flank with Kiriko, just take an angle and two-tap someone, tp out. As Moira it's like a gymnastics session trying to kill anyone that doesn't have their monitor turned off. I feel that's the area where Moira could get more skill expression, and a larger margin for error, and get the ability to outplay and be outplayed. Right now it feels like I have to make up elaborate plans about where and how to Fade jump to actually outplay someone, and that's way harder to execute than hitting two kunais from the side on someone. Plus, Kiriko can AD-strafe dodge when duelling due to her hitbox and effective range, while Moira just dies to hitscan if you try within 20 meters. Making Moira's beam require more precise tracking while increasing the range from 20m to 25-30m would do a lot on its own to add skill expression, while leaving Bronze healbot Moira basically untouched (they fight at such close ranges anyway).
I really like your videos man, not a lot of people who speak about these things.
thank you so much! i hope to provide a different perspective from other OW creators.
High elo pick rate is a much better metric than win rate to measure a hero's strength. Sym had one of the highest win rates for years in OW1 despite never being meta and having a low pick rate.
Heroes that are only played in very niche situations where they overperform are of course going to have a high win rate because they are not picked outside of those situations.
Oh yeah I forgot about that. Excellent point! Sym used to be played only on Lijiang so her win rate was incredibly high. Kiriko being picked so often gives us a lot better data. This is also why I say it needs so much context. Data interpretation is a thing and people assume facts are just facts but I think forget how many variables there's could be too influence the outcome. Which is why I prefer to balance around the idea of how it plays out in game on game feel. Not every game dev has a good grasp on game feel though I will admit. It's why I make these videos.
I'm an Arin Robinson enjoyer
You have a lot of great videos and experience so this is an incredibly high compliment for me thank you!
Well said, honestly.
Winrate/Pickrate values are never going to address the paved over gameplay dynamics in a lot of kits. Denial mechanics are heavily represented in Overwatch 2, if only to address the significant responsibilities everyone has trying to cover for the lack of a 2nd Tank, but that doesn't mean every button press needs to be this all encompassing "Delete" that wipes out 10-15s of setup/skill execution from the enemy.
I've always been fond of Click to Confirm for this. You can tuck multiple options for abilities inside of different input sequences; Brig's shield bash, Moira's orbs, etc. both add a layer of timing and focus into a kit, while allowing for more options than traditional input layouts would provide. Doing something similar with Suzu and Swiftstep, that separates the MANY different effects each is doing, would allow for the versatility of offense and defense plays.
Players in broad MMR/low level, tend to get overwhelmed a lot more easily, making errors more of an occurrence. Click to Confirm helps to focus that attention into the immediate moment, while scaling with level/'skill'; the errors shrink as the decision-making becomes more fluid around confirming the choice, rather than interpreting a constantly shifting scenario.
I never thought about how click to confirm could change a low who dynamic but I am now. My first instinct would be to try and just make the kit more fluid but I wonder if certain ranks just need things to be slowed down in a way first. Interesting idea thank you!
@ exactly this. The temporary lock out of all other mechanics, ensures focus on the task at hand while rewarding faster and faster application as they figure the hero out over time. Really good over all but especially Supports.
Kudos on the design convo. Mate, glad there’s more folks involved with how intensive and intricate Overwatch can be
Yeah the invisible dps who can hack you out of any ability isnt about denial and Sombra is present since OW1. You can force a Kiriko into using her suzu, but definitely not a Sombra into hacking someone or using emp.
@@derunfassbarebielecki i said heavily represented in 2, not only represented. Sombra, Orisa, and Ana all had mechanics that denied in OW1 so the trend did start there but has significantly ramped up in OW2, so much so that it is a staple now in the design.
Sombra, honestly, should have remained in design as a Support; removing her from the enemy backline and doing more to assist get team. Way less frustrating
i agree with most of this but one minor thing is that if the pick rates are not adjusted for how many characters there are in each role, of course tracer would have a lower pick rate than kiriko, theres just more dps than supp
this is true, i should have made it clearer in terms of just dps and just support. the safer more reliable heroes like soldier would be at the top and they are. kiriko is still at the top despite her supposed difficulty to play as well as terrible winrate. tracer still being towards the top makes sense because i will not deny her power in the right hands and i would like people to admit that kiriko is there because she is also powerful. there is a reason she's picked more than zen and illari. the argument that her winrate is bad or she's difficult to play doesn't line up with her pick rate especially the higher you climb.
I will admit to tracer's strength in the right hands and i hope kiri players will also admit to her strength as well. the idea that we shouldn't touch suzu or kiri cause of winrate is one that just doesn't line up with the reality. unless we're talking about low elo players in which i still stand by my statement in that it's the fault of the kiri's design making it really easy to make the wrong play.
Imo, the problem with blizzard balancing Kiri, is that half the Kiri player base at lower tiers are those mercy players that "also play Kiri and Moira", except these players aren't used to having a movement CD longer than 3 seconds, so they just die and lower the win rate, causing blizzard to buff kiri
the problem is always with the kits. blizzard seems to create the kit and unless players are extremely vocal about changing it they just won't. they'll look at winrates and statistics and i used to work with designers like that and they drove me nuts lol orisa for instance isn't a problem cause of her winrate it's cause she's not fun to play against but they'll keep citing her winrate as reasons to buff. same with kiri. then games aren't fun cause it's all orisa and kiri when players want to play JQ/Winston and Lucio.
Tracer is less picked than kiri because there are more dps than supports to be fair
someone else pointed this out too so i'll copy and paste my response to them but you are both accurate and i should have been clearer.
this is true, i should have made it clearer in terms of just dps and just support. the safer more reliable heroes like soldier would be at the top and they are. kiriko is still at the top despite her supposed difficulty to play as well as terrible winrate. tracer still being towards the top makes sense because i will not deny her power in the right hands and i would like people to admit that kiriko is there because she is also powerful. there is a reason she's picked more than zen and illari. the argument that her winrate is bad or she's difficult to play doesn't line up with her pick rate especially the higher you climb.
I will admit to tracer's strength in the right hands and i hope kiri players will also admit to her strength as well. the idea that we shouldn't touch suzu or kiri cause of winrate is one that just doesn't line up with the reality. unless we're talking about low elo players in which i still stand by my statement in that it's the fault of the kiri's design making it really easy to make the wrong play.
@@arinrobinson3898 I personally think they should remove all the support immos ngl shit design
Feels like theres alot of bias coming in to this video. Kiriko is hated for the same reason tracer is they feel bad to lose to. Is a high level Kiriko easier than high level Tracer? yes ofcource but theres a clear trade off here. Its alot easier to carry as a god tier tracer than it is to carry as a god tier Kiriko. Yes there skill floors are in different places but so are the skill ceilings. The Sombra point is a good one, but as more people enjoy Kiriko shes going to be allowed to piss more people off, Its not fair but its how it works to make an enjoyable game. If alot of people love your character you get more room to negatively effect the rest of the people in the game as ideally you want a net gain in experiance.
If you want to come for Kiriko you have to come for Tracer.
One final point, Kiriko dosnt see much OWL exposure unless im mistaken but she is not hated as much at lower ranks which is most of the player base. So even if I agree with ur position which is quite resonable, we are talking about a very small amount of players which are not at the top nor at the bottom so is it really worth balanceing around them.
I will put my own bias on the table as well. I was a Tracer/Lucio OTP but I quit for many years and have recently returned and have fallen in love with Kiriko I probably wouldn't be playing for long if she wasnt here when i returned.
Sincerely Gold 3 Potato.
I'm rambling now but I also wanted to add, your ideas to make her more skill expressive and less simple and easy to use are great but its a double edge sword, you limit her availability the more skill expression you add to her because her power level must be adjusted for that.
We all have biases for sure best we can do is be honest about them. I love Tracers kit and I just want to see everyone have a strong kit like her. not OP, just versatile. i also tend not to look at OWL myself mostly just how people play in comp or quickplay since pro play is a different beast from even top 500.
Tracer is incredibly strong but it's because her kit is simple but capable of so much. at high risk. so in the hands of the right people she can seem unstoppable at times because she has a solution for almost every problem but she has weaknesses and when she messes up she dies super fast.
kiriko does have an extremely easy and accessible kit but her kit doesn't help her fight someone like Tracer for instance. her abilities tp her to an ally and another buys her some more time. her kunai is her only way to fight back but cannot be used in a way to outplay her like tracers blink or recall. kiriko can only run away. so if you miss your kunai you just leave and that is frustrating cause your tools aren't meant to fight back so the interaction is a frustrating one for kiriko. Tracer on the other hand has no way to outplay kiriko. She cannot outplay Suzu or swift step. so she is frustrated too. this frustration if not able to be vocalized is still felt by players of all ranks unconsciously or consciously. which is why i think it's worth addressing personally.
it feels bad to lose to Tracer because it feels like you didn't have the tools needed to outplay her.
it feels bad to lose to kiriko cause at best you get her to use her CD's and at worst you die for it. no matter what it's a lose lose situation. same could be true for any hero going up against her.
this is sort of the kiriko conundrum. her kit is simple yet powerful so people like to play her but the kit is also designed in a way that i believe creates player frustration for her and others. as well as doesn't help low elo players as they will die a lot to how easy it is to do the wrong thing at the wrong time.
now I have no way of knowing for sure if I could change this for the better but I would like to try. I do want to keep that accessibility you mention that people love but also expand her kit to be more expressive for her so she can make plays and fight back but also give counterplay to others as well. making suzu a proactive and predictive ability as well would help. as well as swift step less team dependent.
I believe the frustration both players have with fighting each other are alleviated with the same solution and i think it is possible to make most people happy. in theory at least. it would have to be tested but I am optimistic in this idea.
i appreciate your thoughts on this! it's a good discussion!
@@arinrobinson3898 Thank you for taking the time to respond and thank you for the video!
@@Turner6277 absolutely! you gave me a lot of good things to think about.
Look At the Most Picked Heroes Here and then look at the skin relase trend per season... something tells me there has to be a connection...
i feel like it's a catch 22. they won't nerf or change them cause people buy skins. so they keep making skins for them and so they won't nerf or change them. just this endless cycle where the game feels like it's just meant for kiriko skins at this point.
Ofc there is? It would be weird for there not to be
@@arinrobinson3898this is already objectively false
I love this video and I think your referencing a lot of my concerns. Personally I don’t find Kiri to be very engaging to play against. She’s difficult to interact with as almost ever character in the game, she either makes a mistake and dies or is the last one alive with no one to tp to. I also don’t find her to be very oppressive. I used to see her low risk flanks as very toxic since she could duel much better with her two tap, it felt like a low risk high reward play, but since the projectile changes and the hp changes she’s usually forced out, and her heals and suzu are often used on cooldown trades like nade because she has trouble fighting through those things otherwise, her heals on very low hp targets are usually to slow and too little. Overwatch players tend to hold onto their character opinions pretty far past their expiration date, and while I think Kiri isn’t a great design I would hope she’s low on the priority list. On the topic of expiration dates tracer being a glass cannon is quite frankly wrong. She’s one of the most popular dps at high ranked play. With the lack of cc and burst breakpoints she’s no longer a character that can be effectively interacted with by almost anyone. She’s a mini tank with hyper mobility. Not only is tracer no longer engaging to play against but she dominates in games consistently. Almost every top 500 player has her on their top three hero’s played and she’s one of the highest pick and winrate. On top of the fact that cass and brig are both meta relevant and still unable to keep her in check.
i agree that kiri is not engaging to play against and part of the problem is not only is it not fun to duel her. she also ruins the duels you try to take with anyone else cause of tp suzu. taking a duel with kiriko is most of the time too risky as you either die or she tp's away. she might not be oppressive or even op but that isn't to say she doesn't make the game frustrating for everyone else and that's what i want to address. i want to remove that frustration but also replace it with giving kiri and wider toolkit to make the kiri mains happy. i say it a lot but i'm not trying to just nerf supports i'm trying to redesign them to make them better for everyone.
as far as tracer she's benefitted the most from season 9 changes. so much so that her winrate is a bit higher than i'd expect. i think making shots harder to hit was crucial to keeping her in check. the higher you climb the more problematic the projectile change was. also i had no issue with her being one shot from most heroes like mei. ruining those breakpoints for her was really bad. she's the highest picked because she's a high skill hero though. her kit is simple to understand but hard to master. it makes sense why you'd see her there but also why ana is the most played support. two things put you in the most played spot and that's either OP or high skill high reward. i don't think tracer is OP but in the hands of someone who mains her it can feel like it. me personally i love fighting high elo tracers as any hero. might be cause i'm a tracer main but i think it's exciting and i have a fun little hobby of trying to hook, knife, or stick them out of recall lol i have a whole montage of it on my channel. to me i like dueling tracers, genjis, lucios, cassidy's. i don't know i think that shit is fun.
overall i think season 9 health and projectile changes was really bad and a big reason why she's as strong as she is right now. as a tracer main you'd think i'd be all for whatever makes her stronger but i am not. i liked that high risk i would take. i liked the old break points. now it feels a lot less rewarding. me personally i'd like to revert season 9 health and projectile changes and start balancing from there.
@ I think tracer has similar toxic elements as Kiri but they are much worse. Kiri doesn’t have great tools to run you down when she engages you where as tracer has great tools, and secondly Kiri is much less likely to win the fight than tracer is. Both get out whenever they are losing and chasing them is not a viable option, but tracer just wins more often than not.
Tracer has a strong toolkit that allows her to do a lot. i personally would take fighting a tracer over a kiri. however what i'm saying isn't that we should nerf tracer and kiri but give players toolkits like tracers that are strong so they don't feel as oppressed when a tracer shows up. the problem in my mind is that players don't feel like they have the ability to fight back and i want to give them that ability. what if suzu wasn't just a denial ability but also an offensive tool? what if lifeweavers E wasn't just a pull that required a teammate but also an offensive capability to fight back against flankers? my goal is always to redesign kits away from 1 dimensional play and give them choices in how they use them. i don't want to nerf kiri, i want to expand her toolkit and take some power away from just an all powerful denying tool and turning it into an offensive tool as well. what that is yet i don't know for sure but it's the direction i'd like to see them go.
it just boils down to if you flashbang tracer she doesnt look at the ground, get rid of the status effect and get like a seconds worth of s then tp away
@@joenuts2911 Joe gets it.
Kiriko is a very strong hero, but unlike many other heroes her skill on a graph could be seen with a big plateau in the centre. Thats why her pickrate is so high, because you can play her fairly consistantly without messing things up to much, but once you mess up you lose. The argument her suzu makes it unfun to play against her is so cheap, how many other heroes would fall below this umbrella? To me this Kiriko hate is mostly a result of people not playing her and basing all their opinion around this.
I've played her to gm. It made me hate her more.
i tried to be a tracer main, but every game I would have 2-3 people counter swap me. after a while it got really annoying so i gave up on tracer...
Playing into her counters is really tough but can still be a lot of fun if you ever try again!
a lot of it is knowing when to engage. you don't really want to be a fast assassin but more so like a pesky mosquito constantly peppering someone from a safe angle and using her blinks to rotate a lot. what helps is you blink the moment someone looks at you cause if they're looking at you they're already shooting. you can dodge hooks and flashbang this way too.
It's funny how the role that should be the most versatile has a character who is completely one-dimensional lol
Also I hate how you have to explain that it's possible to look mostly past your biases as a player and look at the game as a designer...
yeah, I'm coming at this from a design perspective and i admit tracer is powerful but it's cause she's got strong kit and not strong abilities. i tell people i want to change support abilities to be stronger toolkits to deal with her and everyone just thinks i hate supports and want them nerfed lol i feel like i'm being clear but idk.
The excuse towards Ana having higher skill expression and the idea that winrate is a bad reflection due to low ranks not using kiris kit properly seem to directly contradict each other, no?
ana's kit is designed to not influence you to kill yourself essentially. her abilities are long range, scoped, she's non mobile, so you naturally want to play from a distance. kiriko's tp is really easy to do and most players don't know when to do it. so in lower elo's she will always be tp'ing in to her death. it's an ability that is incredibly easy to do but also limiting so high elo players can maximize it's value easily and be bored. low elo players will constantly die using it wrong. to me it's just a poorly designed kit that doesn't help low or high elo.
I'm not a massive fan of Kiri, but I gotta say, a lot of the information is factually incorrect, and some of the statistics used are presented disingenuously.
That said, I do agree that a Kiri rework would be nice, and bonus points for The Princess Bride in the thumbnail.
The reason why sombra gets destroyed is relatively simple, low level players complained about sombra and that is what they make A LOT of their changes based off of. Its the same reason why they allowed hanzo to have no identity for as long as they did.
The smurf epidemic makes sombra even more OP in low elo as a good player smurfing down a few divisions will not get punished, the team wont stay in a group leaving spawn allowing sombra to just pick off the same support over and over again, the tanks use their mobility out of spawn to reach the choke instead of using it to engage one they reach the choke and leave the team behind allowing widow free reign, etc. Going free to play means smurf and cheater accounts are basically unlimited now, so we have cheaters and smurfs just churning accounts and not caring when they eventually get banned.
@K1llabud yeah no matter how much the more competitive crowd says it is balanced, spawn camping was way too easy lol
2:00 overwatch is a game that designs itself
try not to design heroes around game play,, try to design around real life
if soldiers butllet go in a straight line, then sombra cant hack ball out of ball form and JQ axe does 5 extra dmg to LW tree,,,, etc.....
1) your point about winrate would be fair if it wasnt exactly the same at high elo
2)the game is already designed around feelings and that is exaclty why is bad ¨not one shooting feels bad for the widow¨ ¨facing two tanks feels bad for the dps¨ ¨random headshot from hanzo feel bad¨ the reason why goats happend is because they wanted to make the game easier and easier since project titan, thats why inspire and bap granade aoe heals happend
3) you are deflecting the winrate question and going for pickrate, popularity doesnt mean effectiveness, look at genji, also, supports will have higher pickrates just as tanks because there is less heros, basic math, however half of the rooster is not designeed for 5v5, zen and mercy being the worse hurt, with lucio being played just because speed was that good, enter juno, so that only gives you juno, brig, kiri, bap and ana to pick from, 5 heroes for two players, maybe illari if the very boring poke meta is in play
4) she is picked as often because of 2 simple reasons a) japanese woman b) fun kit that doesnt exist in any other hero shooter yet, again, feelings
I appreciate the point by point breakdown so i'll try to rebuttal.
1. winrates aren't the same at high elo though. winrates varying by 1-2% is a pretty large gap.
2. i would disagree the game is designed around game feel unless you are saying it's designed around feelings as an emotions. game feel is a game design principle how pressing a button can feel rewarding or satisfying. when i talk game feel that's what i mean.
3. i bring up pick rate because it coincides with peoples argument about win rate. supposedly kiri is a difficult hero but also has a lower than average winrate. most people in comp are playing to win and if there are better supports than why aren't people playing illari? or zen? or lucio? or lifeweaver? if the argument for not touching kiri's kit is that she really isn't that good then why is she still one of the most picked in every elo in comp? also i'm comparing her pick rate to other supports not just other heroes. genji is also a very tough to play hero so his pick rate is lower than say soldier and cassidy. harder heroes to play generally have a lower pick rate than easier heroes. my counter argument is that the arguments i hear from kiriko players don't line up with the stats.
4. I can't argue with "a" tbh. "b" is it a fun kit or an extremely forgiving one at the cost of other people's fun? this is what i mean though. her kit might be fun for the person playing her but in the context of overwatch it's only a fun dynamic for her. the counterplay to her and her kit is lacking and takes away from other roles especially tank. there are ways to address her kit to 1. allow more control on her part but also more counterplay against her 2. allow for play making and not just denial 3. expanding her kit in a way that makes kiri players happy and tanks and dps happy.
Some good points here, but the point still stands that Kiri has a very poorly designed kit.
I really enjoy playing her for her Kunai, but everything else is lackluster.
I'd take a rework to her kit if it meant she would have more skill expression, and more potential in her kit to carry matches.
@@arinrobinson3898
1) variation is something to consider, but if they are still below 50% at gm for the past 12 months, and i also clearly remember it being below 50% at season 8, then what is the difference when even the highest level of players cannot, on average, get more wins than loses?
2) fair, but then what ¨game feel¨ we want? because feel good is an emotion which brings back to the same point
3) comp is more fun than quickplay, the level of players is better even with the same mmr because the distribution is tighter, at season 9 for example i would drop in rank playing kiriko then climb again with bap just to keep playing her kit, when in season 8 i had a 64% winrate, which was my highest on the hero, why are we discussing under the assumption that people tryhard comp and only use the meta? i only play dps comp now because my girlfriend wants to pocket me and see me carring the team, would classify that as fun, anecdotical, but still
4b) cannot talk for everybody, but for me the suzu could go away, the fun part of the kit is two tapping with a projectile and tping around, now, have 4 takes with that
1) what tool would she get instead, because i tried the event where she was given the no target tp, and i dont think most people want a two taping tracer that can heal zooming around the point
2) a lot of other characters have unfair one sided interactions, which would expect to go away, but are way more critical to ¨hero identity¨ than suzu, like widow hitscan oneshot, so its not a kiri exclusive problem, assuming that those changes will never happen, have the folowing tought:
3) people hate on inmortality for the sake of it, a lot of characters have situational inmortality, reaper fade, mei iceblock, in my opinion the change that suzu needs is the removal of cleanse not inmortality, if the kiriko fails the timing on the pulse or the shatter, or the shot then nothing happens and the ally dies anyway, it would be a skill check, yes, but would be way more fair since the small window would be accurate and not a mistake delete button for any status effect, the area is small, it takes a huge delay to activate and the projectile speed is slow so the kiri has to be exposed to use it most of the time
or 4) as previously stated, maybe is time for dps players to start seeing supports as players and not shootable npcs, not evercomiting to a kiri with suzu is easier than not peeking the entire game because there is a widow, staying with the team every second because there is a tracer/sombra, or healboting the tank the whole game because mauga is meta
@@KCrucis 1. we also need to take into consideration how win rates are figured out in overwatch since it isn't as black and white as you can switch frequently. something i personally see in overwatch as being more of a red flag are stats that lean closer to 45% or 55% as those are the outliers. questions i think that are better to ask are if they are lower or higher depending on the elo why is that? is the kit itself too easy to get value? are the abilities not tuned to benefit skill over raw stats? does the design of the kit promote you to do the wrong behavior too often? there are many questions as to why a winrate the way that it is besides just "are these abilities too strong/weak on paper". my argument is that kiriko's limitations are also what hurt her in low elo as well as make her less fun in high elo. i think both can be addressed at the same time.
2. game feel is hard to explain but how a person "feels" is directly influenced by the coding of the mechanics and how the players actions relate around those mechanics. part of good game design is making sure that the player blames themselves for their deaths and losses and not the game. this is not something you program into the person but rather you create mechanics and scenarios where the player tries something, fails, and wants to play again. when the player begins to blame the game it's a direct result of the design and not a fault of the player. game designers try to minimize this and my argument is that suzu and other immortality abilities with how easy they are to do and deny causes players to blame the game and their teammates more than their own play. emotions and what players feel are directly affected by game design whether people know it or not and in a PVP game you want the player to feel powerful but also that it was fair. this is done not just through balance alone but whether or not those mechanics make sense to the game.
here's a video kind of going over influencing player feel.
th-cam.com/video/iIOIT3dCy5w/w-d-xo.html
3. most people tryhard in comp. it's why mauga was played mostly through season 8 and juno lately. there might be some people who play heroes just for fun such as myself or you but majority are there to win. otherwise no one would have played mauga that much lets be real. that hero is boring.
4b?. i don't think there's a way to make immortality work. the immortalities of other heroes make sense as it's their one defensive ability but it also doesn't give them health and put them to a safe location. it's their way to outplay. timing fade and ice block is a skill you can use to outplay through predictive and reactive ways. cleanse does way more than that. and those heroes need their one ability that if they lose makes them weak and exposed allowing other players to capitalize on their mistakes and feel powerful for outplaying them. immortalities negate player mistakes at no cost. this makes the other roles more frustrating because they took all the risk but supports with immortalities take none and get more reward. it creates that linear loop where the game can't be played until the immortalities are out. there needs to be a balance where players feel like they were outplayed and not that a support can press E at the ground to negate their play they had to work for. changing immortalities and replacing them with abilities that can be used offensively, predictively, or defensively would redistribute that power and make it feel more fair but also allow supports more tools to make plays and win the game. having abilities that require teammates is extremely limiting and having abilities that are strictly reactive are also limiting. they have to be extremely powerful because of those limitations but if we expand what they can do you can have an ability with a variety of interesting uses vs a super powerful ability with 1. this is why i think it would be ultimately a win win for both supports and other roles.
i am legit advocating for supports to be stronger. in the same way that dps heroes can outplay me as a dps i want supports to have that as well. it's why i don't complain about Ana ever. when i die to her it means she hit her skills. her toolkit and how it's used is large and i want other supports to have strong tools as well because currently immortalities and suzu frustrates everyone except the person using them. if we can change sombra because it wasn't healthy for the game we can change immortalities too but i don' think that's a bad thing. i think there are ways to make it better and make everyone happier.
@@KCrucis I don't think the game feel point was explained well, so i'll try to help with that. Game feel refers to a more tactile meaning of "feel". It's how heavy/light the controls feel, how soft/hard, how hot/cold, how gross/clean. Gameplay dynamics can affect game feel in very fundamental ways. Reinhardt's charge in overwatch 2 feels lighter from the option to stop it and the tighter turning, for example. It's still super heavy and impactful, but the increased control makes it feel like the jet engine on your back is just a bit weaker. Game feel concerns often overlap with hero identity concerns, which is why when you talk about "feeling good" and we talk about "game feel", they are often closely related issues.