My wife was so shocked and angry with me when I ripped that first objective card in two. I don't think she saw that coming. Not everyone can handle that mechanism.
I don't understand all the negative comments regarding "legacy" games. No one is stopping you from sticking with normal Pandemic but for some people, and I include myself in this, the legacy element adds an extra element that makes the game even more enjoyable.
As someone who has played through Pandemic Legacy, and only got 12 games out of it, because we didn't lose a single game. I had a blast! I don't feel like it was a waste of money at all, and it was the most fun gaming experience I've ever had. I can't see anyone regretting this purchase once they actually start playing. I agree with Rahdo, that trying to preserve the game as you play isn't really the best way to enjoy this game. Rip up those cards, add the stickers, write in permanent ink! It's part of the whole experience. Part of the excitement of playing this game is seeing the story play out, not knowing what was going to happen next, getting to open packages, and get new rules. I'm satisfied with just playing this game through it's entirety once. And I'm looking forward to buying Season 2, assuming they make another one. The "Legacy" style of game isn't going to appeal to everyone, which I get. But I totally recommend anyone who enjoys co-op games, Pandemic, or tabletop gaming in general should experience this game! If you look at it as more of a "gaming experience" than a "game to add to your library," then I think you can get pass the price.
I think I already know the answer, but I just wanted to ask. For me, never played Pandemic, would it be OK to get the game, play without the legacy part for some games to get used to it and start then the legacy run? Or would it better to get both games (the regular and the legacy)?The only thing Richard mentions was that is equivalent to an easy setup in regular Pandemic, but I'm curious if I missed something.
+MrVurtan no need to buy regular pandemic... the rules for pandemic legacy actually recommend you play a few games using P:L without any legacy addons to get the hang of it before you bust out the stickers
We only have Pandemic the Cure and we were thinking about buying the big brother but with this out, I'm wondering - if we buy Legacy and finish it, do you think we can treat it like normal Pandemic? And more important would expansions work with this?
+RafNen that i can't say becuase i haven't finished it myself. but this is something i'll talk about when i do my updated final thoughts after we make it through the final four missions :)
+UncleMilo I would assume you can't start from beginning cuz you would know everything no? if you like pandemic you prob will like this as this is just like playing that but each time you get a different rule or something. if you don't like pandemic, i don't know if the legacy gimmick will make you like it more?
+UncleMilo From my Risk Legacy experiences, it is done... The board is still there though, so you can choose to play with it, taking into account all the changes on the board or ignoring all stickers, Factions modifications (In Pandemic case Workers modifications), etc... That said, Risk Legacy is less about storytelling that Pandemic Legacy seems to be so it could be different... But I'm willing to bet it's the same thing in the end, you can choose to play with the modified board or return to classic Pandemic... or buy another Pandemic Legacy...
+3Minotaur3 I have to say...I really do love the idea behind this game and it looks like a big, huge blast to play. But to pay over $50 for a game that you are partially going to destroy and only have a few uses out of it....that is a bit of a hard thing to swallow for me personally. Maybe if I can find it on sale at some point I wouldn't mind picking it up for maybe under $30. Again though, this seems like one of the most brilliant games that has been designed.
You have no idea how many peoples (me included) was thinking that way before we opened our first box of Risk Legacy... ;-) First writing or putting stickers on the board, ripping apart your first card, etc... Are the hardest, but after that it became a fun part of the game... That said, because of the price and all, you better be sure to have a good group that is really willing to play until the end before buying it...
+Maxime Daoust +rahdo +MMODoubter +Jesse Haulk +Neo james82 Playing this game without destruction or stickers would be like watching a movie with the sound off and only reading subtitles. You would get the gist of it, but you are robbing yourself of the emotional impact from your gameplay choices permanently affecting your game. The psychological impact of destroying components is a big part of the experience. The sound of the card being teared in half and the feeling of that in your hands is incredible. The designers are using the medium in a creative way to make you have a certain experience. In this vein, if you play this game without destruction or permanent changes, you're not playing the same game. (The game is about more than just the mechanisms, just like a movie is more than just the plot.)
atonaltensor It is also a waste of $40 - $70. If you are going to spend that much on a game, you want to make sure that you will be able to get a lot of play out of it. And you wouldn't be able to experience the journey again if you destroy cards, that is unless you bought another unit. After all, there are some people who have tight budgets and would rather spend their hard-earned money on something they will be able to get a lot of play out of... I am just saying...
Well, it's completely valid to decide you don't want to spend your money on this (or on anything else really), but personally I don't consider it a waste any more than I would consider buying a ticket to the theater or a movie that I will only be able to watch once (unless I want to buy another ticket later). The 40-70 dollars are worth 12 to 24 games of around one hour each (my group is particularly analytic and debate-prone so we actually are spending around two hours per game) for 2 to 4 people, and to get a different and exciting gaming experience, so personally I feel this purchase was already worth every penny (we just finished September - and lost three games so far -, three more months to go, our campaign will last 15-18 games). In comparison, I started thinking about other boardgames I own, and though they have theoretical infinite replay value, some of them I didn't actually play more than 15 times and I'm already tired of. I agree with +atonaltensor that playing it without destruction or stickers would be certainly possible, but would take much of its impact. As said in the video, several decisions that we would have made lightly in a regular boardgame were way more difficult and interesting, and I found the twists in the story to be really well crafted in order to make us have strong emotional responses. There were really tragic moments that I never imagined could be attained by a boardgame and I'm impressed how well the game is balanced. So, though it might not be for everyone, my recommendations if you're considering this are: - don't compare the price/card destruction/stickers to regular board games/books/dvds, think of it as something akin to a movie/play/fancy dinner where you're paying for a one-time experience and make your decision based on that. - definitely recommend that you play it with 4 players (or even if you have fewer people, play with 4 characters since the game is fully cooperative and is balanced for a full party) - don't ignore either the destruction of elements OR the role-playing involved. Name all your characters, treat the scars as actual conditions (e.g. this player has one less action per turn because they're insomniac). This will make the experience much more intense and the twists in the story much more impactful. And, related to that, know that the game is made to make you feel the stress, but also balance itself out. The difficulty level will adjust itself during the first couple of months and you'll likely pass the remainder of the campaign at the edge of your abilities, cursing the sudden but inevitable twists of fate that come your way.
Such a fantastic game. Played through about half of this so far, such a satisfying experience and a great time to play. Modifying the game for the first time (ie destroying cards) is so difficult at first because it feels like you shouldn't be doing that. Glad we have it, considering getting a second copy to play with another group because it's soo incredible. If you like normal Pandemic, you NEED to get this and enjoy every second of it. If you don't want to get it because of the permanence then I feel bad for you because you are robbing yourself of this incredible experience.
You said in the video that the game doesn't include a mechanism to increase the difficulty. I thought that was what the "funding" is for, where you decrease the action card count by two, after a victory.
+Muhmaker yup, but that's the game autobalacing itself. i meant there's no way to say "i want the entire game to be more challenging across the board" like you can in pretty much all other co-ops...
Great video. I have played 9 games and we have lost 4 times. My group finds the game very difficult. At first it wasnt too bad but when your funding gets cut to zero because of wins the game gets harder. After it hit zero we lost the next game. I think the funding is supposed to be the equalizer in difficulty. I'm Surprised you find the game easy even with four players.
Maybe it's a stupid question, but the 'legacy' part is new to me. I am wondering if, in theory, you can accidentally do some mistakes which would bring the game in an unwinnable state? For example, have a chain of bad decisions and events which would buff a disease and an area in such a way that no matter what you try to do, you would never be able to win one of the months of the game, leaving you stuck.
+Bogdan Hobinca that's not something to worry about. the more mistakes you make, the easier the game gets to compensate. every time you lose a mission, you get to draw more event cards in the following game, making you much more powerful. plus if you ever lose 4 missions in a row, you get to open the mysterious box #8, which i can only assume is some sort of super awesome powerful equalizer :)
+rahdo Thanks for your reply. I have another question, on an even darker tone than my last. You have only 5 character cards, right? And when a character dies, you destroy his card. Does this mean that if somehow 2 deaths occur, suddenly the game becomes only for a maximum of 3 players?
+Bogdan Hobinca i don't want to spoil anything, but if things go that bad for you in the short term, there are extra types of characters called 'civilians' who you can use as a stand in for special characters. and in the long term, i'll simply say there are many surprises waiting for you in the legacy deck, so that shouldn't be a problem for long :)
Balance wise, I think it was certainly a conscious design decision to keep it on the easier side because losing multiple campaigns in a row would be devastating to a player's psyche. I went 11-4 myself, and my two back to back losses in April were profoundly stressful. Despite its ease, especially for seasoned Pandemic players, it is still quite engaging. So many have said this is game of the year, and I agree with them.
He is ranting a lot about the new connections. But the only changes are three extra connections in South America and even two less connections in black.
basically, when you're splitting up the deck at the start into the sub-decks, each of which is supposed to get an epidemic card, divide into as many sub-decks as you want(the more, the harder). you won't have enough epidemic cards for all them, but put one each each deck you do have, and leave the un-epidemic'd subdeck(s) to the side. as you play, when you find an epidemic, after you're done dealing with it, shuffle it into one of the subdecks, and then add that subdeck to the bottom of the main deck. boom! :)
I want to thank you for doing this runthrough (spoilers included). Your video of Pandemic Cure got me hooked on "soloable" board games and introduced me into modern board gaming. I love your (and Jen's) passion for games! I usually play co-op games solo (my husband is a PC gamer) and a legacy style game did not appeal to me, however after watching this run through and my love for the Pandemic franchise as a whole (still an easy mode player) I will definitely have to add this one to the want list! Please also thank Jen for the great idea of painting the pawns because I also HATE the pink color! Shout out to Doby and Tula, too! Thanks again for all the great videos!
Hopefully my post about this will help set people at ease about the fact that the game is technically "disposable." Now right now I am in the second half of September (So my opinions may change), and I will NOT be giving any spoilers in this post. There are two parts of this game that are unlike many others. There is the surprise story and there is the modifications to the board. The first of these that I want to talk about is the modifications to the board. I agree with Rahdo about the modifications to the board help create the dynamic intensity of the story. Just like his friend David said in the playthrough, "It was dreadful!" I think of this game like Christmas. I love Christmas every year. However, once I open the presents I will never create a situation where I can reset it, like putting velcro on the wrapping paper so I can experience opening the presents again! It's pointless. I already know what they are, and opening then again can never be as exciting as the first. At this point I do not plan on playing the missions again after I have completed all of the months because I wouldn't get the same pleasure of the original game. So other than replay, why would anyone want to have the option to "reset" their game. The only thing that I can think of is to resell the game to another person. Which is reasonable since the game is rather expensive, why not resell it to another person who can play a used copy? That's where the experience comes in to play. If I go to a theme park with the intentions to resell my tickets, but the catch is that I can't take pictures, buy souvenirs, or have any part of it to keep, is that worth the small amount of money you would receive in return? The best part of this game is that you will have an entirely unique experience and board at the end. You and your friends have created something together, and now you have the keepsake that you can look at like old photos and remember the games you played. Also, if anyone else you know plays it fully, there is no reason you cannot show the boards to see how they differ. I think that would be a great experience as well! Finally, the destruction of the components give a realistic cause and effect to the game. Just like Rahdo said in the video. You created the character, you invested the time to upgrade them and make them better. But if you lose them because you made a careless mistake, you should live with your choices and tear up what is needed. It will ad a sense of realism unlike video games or any other board games can provide. Sorry for the lengthy post. Hopefully this helped a few people decide to buy it or not. Thanks again Rahdo for making this video. My final suggestion, if you get the chance to play just the first month, do so. And if you are unsure about playing it for yourself, volunteer to tear up the first card it tell you to do so. I think with your cringe, you'll understand the impact the designers made for you! Thanks all!
Great video, definitely want to pick up Pandemic Legacy soon. But I felt I should point out that there are some video games with an Iron Man Mode... which is essentially... permadeath. You are locked into one save, and the game saves every time you make a key choice or when someone dies or whatever else could go wrong/change things. The newer XCOM games do this pretty well... as does Wasteland 2 I think... and Pillars of Eternity. There are probably more but that's all I'm aware of personally.
My thoughts very much echo yours. We're 8-2 so far, with both our losses coming in the same month (curiously, not a month that had a big Legacy Deck game alteration). It's amazing, with the biggest reason being exactly what you said. The permanence of the possible effects gives Pandemic Legacy and overarching strategy that regular Pandemic doesn't have. It's NOT just tactical. We also have the same complaint as you do. It's too easy. And while for me, this is also elevated to one of my favorite games ever, garnering a full Keyflower rating (I rate games in fractions of a Keyflower), I think I feel a little more strongly about the easy difficulty level than you express in your closing statement. I feel just a little bit cheated by the easy difficulty level. We've played 10 games. We're 8-2. We have no collapsing cities. We have only one character with a single scar. We haven't had to struggle with the permanent negative effects that would give us a sense of paranoia I feel the game expects us to experience. I'm very much hoping a member of my regular game group purchases a copy, so I can participate (spoiler-free) in a hopefully more difficult playthrough. Can't wait to finish the game and see your final final thoughts. Nice job navigating the spoiler mine-field with this one.
Hi Rahdo, just started to play this game with my wife. We are starting March now. Which characters did you and Jen play? Same two all the time? Or did you switch in between months. Hope you still remembered? :-)
sorry it's been SOOOOOOO long, i don't really remember anymore. but we did play the same two characters almost throughout the entire campaign, i do remember that
Rahdo thanks for replying. Even though it’s been long, I guess this one’s still in your top 3. Having an incredible experience with it, even though it’s an older game. Season 2 is waiting for us, still sealed. Love your videos!
my copy arrived yesterday. now it sits there taunting me. cause I have to wait till christmas. its my present but also my gaming group has no time untill christmas/newyears break. its torture. also why I only watched your final thoughts. I have seen the variation for harder difficulty as well. and will definately implement it in our game. We are all very good players of pandemic and I love me some doom and gloom and impossible odds. also I kind of wanna see what is in Box #8 !
I'm glad to hear that others are able to get such a rich experience, because the opposite was true for our play. The developments simply did not really matter much until the very end. In other words, the journey wasn't very eventful or challenging--EXCEPT the very end, and then it was over. Cities will NOT necessarily fall. Not a single city fell. It seems, our play-through was a freak outlier. Maybe a 4 Player game would be a better experience, but I'm sure as heck not going to spend another $50-70 to try it.
+KAM1138a actually if you noted in my final thought, i agree that on the whole the game is too easy, and probably needs to have the difficulty level ramped up to create more of a dire challenge... :)
Yes, we agree on that, but for whatever reason, the developments in your games were more impactful than they were in ours. Clearly, as you describe, those developments were deeply felt, but for us, it just wasn't there.
Hey, rahdo, I was listening to an interview with Matt and Rob last week (Rolling dice and taking names, go check it if you'd like), and they emphasized many times how story driven the game is. Now, about your feeling that the game is too easy, could it be for that reason? I mean, perhaps in order to keep the story running without jeopardizing weaker players' experience, they made it easier. Best regards!
+Guilherme Duque honestly, i think the game is purposely made easier than normal pandemic because the developers know that a LOT of people completely new to pandemic are going to be drawn in to this game, so they had to aim a bit lower on the difficulty scale. it would have been nice though if the game had come with an extra epidemic and a note in the rules aobut how to increase the diffulty if you're experienced players :)
+rahdo that is kind of what I was saying, although I focused on the story telling: by weaker player I meant someone with little ou no experience at all with pandemic. And I totally agree with you: they could have come up with something to increase the difficulty.
My only complaint: The board is just such a major improvement in comparison to the standard Pandemic board that it's a shame to "destroy" it. I'd love to use it for regular Pandemic once I've run through the complete season...
+rahdo I absolutely will anyways ;-) It's just that it would have been awesome from Z-MAN to provide the possibility to remove the stickers (and other things like the names given to the diseases) without damaging the board. But again, this is only a very minor complaint; Pandemic Legacy is most assuredly the best game of this year; possibly of the last few years altogether!
The game is much easier with only 2 roles. We added a 3rd player (and role) and the difficulty bumped up. This game was intended for 4 players I am seeing. It's just too easy with 2 roles.
tldw :p - and yes, a very unique and awesome experience. could not agree more. Will probably have to play a second time with different people to spread the love.
This is truly a great game! :) We are just at month 6 and getting our asses kicked! ^^ We love it! :) I bought 2 copies but now I regret it because we do not want to replay the game. The experience is incredible and unique. However it seems you very recently said about another game it was your favorite game of the year (maybe gloomhaven or 7th continent but I am not sure). I do not completely agree with your saying that the game is on easy level because of the "roads". Having roads goes both ways also serves the diseases. And the funding makes the game different because 4 cards is normal for 2 players but not for 3 or 4. :) By the way I did love your runthrough and final thoughts even if I had a remark to make. :) And we also are very traumatized every time we have to put a sticker...
+Olivier Prevot it's true, the diseases benefit from the roads as well, but the players benefit *much more* in our experience, because the roads make it easier to put the diseases down before they get a chance to benefit from them. and while dropping funding hurts as you get successive wins, the other benefits you get more than make up for that, in our experience :)
+rahdo *SPOILERS* Maybe we have the issue of being 4 players. :) We are experienced coop and Pandemic players but we encounter many problems in this one ! :) The benefit you speak of is the little bonus for the next month when you win a game ? Because the advantages of winning are small otherwise, except that cities have less stickers. :) Having diseases easier to cure is great I agree, but having better characters is less so because you have to change characters to adapt to the scenario and to have relations between each other. :) What benefits do you see from successive winnings ? Maybe we missed something. :)
+Olivier Prevot *MORE SPOILERS* changing characters every session isn't necessary i think - starting with the feb, if you bring in 2 alt characters, all 4 players can have either co-worker or rival, and that's super powerful, more powerful than having 4 event cards in the draw pile (rivals is an insanely powerful ability)... that plus giving pilot to dispatcher and you're a godly group. plus, every time you win, you get the win bonus for the following month, which is also also just as powerful as having one of those missing events, because it's guaranteed useful, while event cards are very luck dependant. and once equipment comes into the game, you can convert all of the coda cards into powerful bonuses that are more plentiful than your missing event cards. so it's been our experience, that even with funding dropping to zero and more riots appearing, you still get progressively more and more powerful as the game goes on. :) TBH, at first i thought this might only be an issue with 2p gaming, but then we tried it with 4 and found the same thing. and then i found that thread by the shadowrun designer, and so i figured there were enough people experiencing this that i should mention it. but I'd suggest heading over to that thread (link in the show notes above) and maybe continuing the discussion there, as long threads are hard to maintain in youtube, plus it's easier for innocents to accidentally have stuff spoiled :)
I feel like 2 player pandemic (in general and definitely more so in legacy) is definitely easier than 3 and 4, since you start with more cards, have less people to trade with, you can load powers on only 2 chars, etc. Also depends on what characters you're using as well, but curing a disease on turn 1 is very very easy with 2 people.
I think you might be a statistical outlier for saying it's easy :P We are going into game 2 of September with a 50/50 win record. Sure you didn't flub any rules? ;)
+John Gallant we probably did, everyone makes goofs at some point, though I know of at least one mistake we made that turned the game significantly harder for us in the early missions (see below for spoiler), and yet we still breezed through them. so at first i was inclined to agree that it was just us, and the 'too easy' thing was an anomaly, but then i went on BGG, and a LOT of people are reporting the same thing, so i believe there is something to it, which is why i reported it here :) *SPOILER* for the first few months, we didn't realize that you could still take coda cubes off the board with effects other than standard treatment, and so our grassroots campaign & other effects were largely wasted, making things harder than they should have been :)
+rahdo With the randomness of the infection deck I am sure that they designed it to be a bit easy on purpose. We got the nightmare draw in our game 2 with the first three cities being adjacent reds with another one of the 2 draws also being adjacent. Epidemic first turn with ANOTHER adjacent Red drawn (china was screwed) We had a fallen city by the end of that game. When you get that draw it makes a lot tougher right off the bat. So I have a feeling that they made it a bit easier to prevent a draw like that from being a complete torpedo of the rest of the campaign. We're running about 50% Wins moving into month 7 now.
I have to ask. What is the point if making the game essentially be vandalized. I agree, its the difference between save scumming and iron man mode. Except that in a video game you can restart the campaign after having completed it without having to purchase it again. I haven't seen many $60 games that can only be played once. So the big question. What would stop someone from playing the 12 sessions with their velcro and then "reset the board" to start over later down the line with different people? That sense of permanence is still there for your active playthrough. But you don't have to drop another $50~60 if you want to play it with a different group of people?
+Danjal Veskandar nothing's to stop you from velcroing or similar, other than it will make the overall game experience significantly weaker. but its your prerogative to do so, since it's your game if you buy it :)
***** Thats what I don't understand, how does it change the game experience? You still end up with the same "game", only you don't have to drop another $50+ to buy a new game if you want to replay. Imagine if you had to rebuy every game after finishing it? I'm sure that the industry heads and shareholders would LOVE it, but beyond that? The pressure or finality are the same on a game by game basis. And if you buy a new game you also start over so thats exactly the same as if you'd reset the board yourself. So the only 'issue' would be with people that do not have that self-control and would "save-scum", rewinding things that happened when its bad. And they'll do that anyway.
+Danjal Veskandar a game experience is more than just navigating a set of rules that creates problems to solve. there's an emotional and social component as well, and these are the things (not the rules) that are affected and enhanced by legacy-style permanence.
***** What permanence though? Once you're through that one campaign, if you want to experience it again you have to buy a new box. There is no permanence there. And to anyone except the group that you've played with. There is no emotional or social attachment. Its just another board. If you want to share that experience, those emotions. The only way is to get a new board. Play the entire game anew. It seems to me, that since that core experience is what makes these legacy games so amazing. The inability to share that with others is a fault, rather than a selling point. - I completely agree with what you say in your video. That the act of save-scumming ruins a certain experience in games. That sticking through choices or events can make a far more memorable experience. Which is a selling point for the legacy concept. Yet by making it so you can't share that experience, That kinda falls flat. Unless you want to buy a new box each time. Imagine having to buy a new copy of every game after completely finishing its contents once.
+Danjal Veskandar there is 100% permanence. i don't understand how you can view it any other way than the consequences of your actions being permanently etched onto the board. i can only assume you haven't watched the updated final thoughts vid I put up yesterday, having finished the actual game itself?
What a waste of material... and resources in my opinion! I can understand that it's a one way trip and you would have no interest in replaying that campaign more than one time (even thought I think I would appreciate it still since you can always change the player count and you starting character, create your own variant, etc) but it would have been nice if I can replay that game, give to a friend or even use it to play regular pandemic without creating permanent material destruction. Rahdo talk about the similarity of MMO and the choices you make in the game are permanent. That's true but in a MMO, you can always create a new character and do the campaign all over again, even if you already know the storyline. Anyway just my two cents.
+Maxime Daoust I agree, I despise the legacy games. Even MMOs (with their rampant greed) don't make you buy the game again to play another character. At its most basic - legacy is a cash grab. A cynical ploy to make people buy the same game over and over. It's despicable and a bane to the community.
+rahdo So, let's allow board games to go as greed based as MMOs are? Only, MORE SO? BTW, you pay a sub fee (far less than the purchase price) to continue to play. HOW much you play is up to you. You don't have to pay for each server. You don't have to pay to group with a different set of players. MMOs have their flaws, but legacy board games are far worse.
+MMODoubter sorry, i find the notion that the developers of boardgames are craven greedy bastards trying to create designs specifically to rob customers to be completely out touch with reality. i've met these people in real life, and i've talked to them about what they're trying to accomplish with their creations, and where their passion lies, and it's not in trying to bilk you. NO ONE is going to get rich making boardgames, and to assume the worst of people like this is depressingly cynical, IMO. no offense meant, but yeah, that's how i feel about that :)
***** NO ONE, Richard? NO ONE? Not ONE game dev is greedy? Not ONE wants to be rich? They are all paragons of virtue? Remarkable. I have news for you, Rich. SOME people are in the business as a job, not a 'selfless labour of love'. They are in it to make as much as they can. How many people in the marketing departments have you talked to? Everyone wants to be rich. It's a matter of the lengths to which individuals are willing to go to make it happen. What other aspects of life they are willing to sacrifice. Rob Daviau lied on BGG about the destructive nature of legacy games NOT being prompted by visions of resales. Well, it was not an accident, Rich. These games could have been designed to be reset-able. He chose not to. He said that no one ever mentioned during development of Risk: Legacy that the design would lead to repeated purchases. Game designers are PEOPLE, Richard. Not heroes or saints.
My wife was so shocked and angry with me when I ripped that first objective card in two. I don't think she saw that coming. Not everyone can handle that mechanism.
I don't understand all the negative comments regarding "legacy" games. No one is stopping you from sticking with normal Pandemic but for some people, and I include myself in this, the legacy element adds an extra element that makes the game even more enjoyable.
4:02 Same experience with XCOM : Enemy unknown, in Ironman (no saves). Best experience ever of intense solo video gaming.
"I have just had the best gaming experience of my life." If that doesn't convince you this game is worth the price, this game isn't for you. :)
As someone who has played through Pandemic Legacy, and only got 12 games out of it, because we didn't lose a single game. I had a blast! I don't feel like it was a waste of money at all, and it was the most fun gaming experience I've ever had. I can't see anyone regretting this purchase once they actually start playing. I agree with Rahdo, that trying to preserve the game as you play isn't really the best way to enjoy this game. Rip up those cards, add the stickers, write in permanent ink! It's part of the whole experience.
Part of the excitement of playing this game is seeing the story play out, not knowing what was going to happen next, getting to open packages, and get new rules. I'm satisfied with just playing this game through it's entirety once. And I'm looking forward to buying Season 2, assuming they make another one.
The "Legacy" style of game isn't going to appeal to everyone, which I get. But I totally recommend anyone who enjoys co-op games, Pandemic, or tabletop gaming in general should experience this game! If you look at it as more of a "gaming experience" than a "game to add to your library," then I think you can get pass the price.
I think I already know the answer, but I just wanted to ask. For me, never played Pandemic, would it be OK to get the game, play without the legacy part for some games to get used to it and start then the legacy run? Or would it better to get both games (the regular and the legacy)?The only thing Richard mentions was that is equivalent to an easy setup in regular Pandemic, but I'm curious if I missed something.
+MrVurtan no need to buy regular pandemic... the rules for pandemic legacy actually recommend you play a few games using P:L without any legacy addons to get the hang of it before you bust out the stickers
+rahdo thanks for the info! Now I just need to get the game :-)
We only have Pandemic the Cure and we were thinking about buying the big brother but with this out, I'm wondering - if we buy Legacy and finish it, do you think we can treat it like normal Pandemic? And more important would expansions work with this?
+RafNen that i can't say becuase i haven't finished it myself. but this is something i'll talk about when i do my updated final thoughts after we make it through the final four missions :)
What happens after you play all the adventures? Can you continue to play or is it done?
+UncleMilo don't know, i haven't finished it yet, but i'll do an update video once i have :)
+UncleMilo I would assume you can't start from beginning cuz you would know everything no? if you like pandemic you prob will like this as this is just like playing that but each time you get a different rule or something. if you don't like pandemic, i don't know if the legacy gimmick will make you like it more?
+UncleMilo From my Risk Legacy experiences, it is done...
The board is still there though, so you can choose to play with it, taking into account all the changes on the board or ignoring all stickers, Factions modifications (In Pandemic case Workers modifications), etc...
That said, Risk Legacy is less about storytelling that Pandemic Legacy seems to be so it could be different...
But I'm willing to bet it's the same thing in the end, you can choose to play with the modified board or return to classic Pandemic... or buy another Pandemic Legacy...
+3Minotaur3 I have to say...I really do love the idea behind this game and it looks like a big, huge blast to play. But to pay over $50 for a game that you are partially going to destroy and only have a few uses out of it....that is a bit of a hard thing to swallow for me personally. Maybe if I can find it on sale at some point I wouldn't mind picking it up for maybe under $30. Again though, this seems like one of the most brilliant games that has been designed.
You have no idea how many peoples (me included) was thinking that way before we opened our first box of Risk Legacy... ;-)
First writing or putting stickers on the board, ripping apart your first card, etc... Are the hardest, but after that it became a fun part of the game...
That said, because of the price and all, you better be sure to have a good group that is really willing to play until the end before buying it...
hi
short question:
recommendation for two players- each player two characters or just two in total?
thanks
+dullcopper3
oh you just talked about it
I was wondering if you can simply play this as vanilla pandemic, open the box and just play. in other words ignore the legacy bits.
+Robert Mills yes, in fact the rules recommend you play it as vanilla pandemic a few times before doing any legacy missions :)
+Maxime Daoust +rahdo +MMODoubter +Jesse Haulk +Neo james82 Playing this game without destruction or stickers would be like watching a movie with the sound off and only reading subtitles. You would get the gist of it, but you are robbing yourself of the emotional impact from your gameplay choices permanently affecting your game. The psychological impact of destroying components is a big part of the experience. The sound of the card being teared in half and the feeling of that in your hands is incredible. The designers are using the medium in a creative way to make you have a certain experience. In this vein, if you play this game without destruction or permanent changes, you're not playing the same game. (The game is about more than just the mechanisms, just like a movie is more than just the plot.)
+atonaltensor wow, nice analogy! i'm going to use that in the future! :)
atonaltensor It is also a waste of $40 - $70. If you are going to spend that much on a game, you want to make sure that you will be able to get a lot of play out of it. And you wouldn't be able to experience the journey again if you destroy cards, that is unless you bought another unit. After all, there are some people who have tight budgets and would rather spend their hard-earned money on something they will be able to get a lot of play out of... I am just saying...
Well, it's completely valid to decide you don't want to spend your money on this (or on anything else really), but personally I don't consider it a waste any more than I would consider buying a ticket to the theater or a movie that I will only be able to watch once (unless I want to buy another ticket later).
The 40-70 dollars are worth 12 to 24 games of around one hour each (my group is particularly analytic and debate-prone so we actually are spending around two hours per game) for 2 to 4 people, and to get a different and exciting gaming experience, so personally I feel this purchase was already worth every penny (we just finished September - and lost three games so far -, three more months to go, our campaign will last 15-18 games).
In comparison, I started thinking about other boardgames I own, and though they have theoretical infinite replay value, some of them I didn't actually play more than 15 times and I'm already tired of.
I agree with +atonaltensor that playing it without destruction or stickers would be certainly possible, but would take much of its impact. As said in the video, several decisions that we would have made lightly in a regular boardgame were way more difficult and interesting, and I found the twists in the story to be really well crafted in order to make us have strong emotional responses. There were really tragic moments that I never imagined could be attained by a boardgame and I'm impressed how well the game is balanced.
So, though it might not be for everyone, my recommendations if you're considering this are:
- don't compare the price/card destruction/stickers to regular board games/books/dvds, think of it as something akin to a movie/play/fancy dinner where you're paying for a one-time experience and make your decision based on that.
- definitely recommend that you play it with 4 players (or even if you have fewer people, play with 4 characters since the game is fully cooperative and is balanced for a full party)
- don't ignore either the destruction of elements OR the role-playing involved. Name all your characters, treat the scars as actual conditions (e.g. this player has one less action per turn because they're insomniac). This will make the experience much more intense and the twists in the story much more impactful. And, related to that, know that the game is made to make you feel the stress, but also balance itself out. The difficulty level will adjust itself during the first couple of months and you'll likely pass the remainder of the campaign at the edge of your abilities, cursing the sudden but inevitable twists of fate that come your way.
Such a fantastic game. Played through about half of this so far, such a satisfying experience and a great time to play. Modifying the game for the first time (ie destroying cards) is so difficult at first because it feels like you shouldn't be doing that. Glad we have it, considering getting a second copy to play with another group because it's soo incredible. If you like normal Pandemic, you NEED to get this and enjoy every second of it.
If you don't want to get it because of the permanence then I feel bad for you because you are robbing yourself of this incredible experience.
You said in the video that the game doesn't include a mechanism to increase the difficulty. I thought that was what the "funding" is for, where you decrease the action card count by two, after a victory.
+Muhmaker yup, but that's the game autobalacing itself. i meant there's no way to say "i want the entire game to be more challenging across the board" like you can in pretty much all other co-ops...
+rahdo Guess if you were really confident from the beginning, you could start at funding = 0...or reduce by two steps on a win.
Great video. I have played 9 games and we have lost 4 times. My group finds the game very difficult. At first it wasnt too bad but when your funding gets cut to zero because of wins the game gets harder. After it hit zero we lost the next game. I think the funding is supposed to be the equalizer in difficulty. I'm Surprised you find the game easy even with four players.
Maybe it's a stupid question, but the 'legacy' part is new to me.
I am wondering if, in theory, you can accidentally do some mistakes which would bring the game in an unwinnable state? For example, have a chain of bad decisions and events which would buff a disease and an area in such a way that no matter what you try to do, you would never be able to win one of the months of the game, leaving you stuck.
+Bogdan Hobinca that's not something to worry about. the more mistakes you make, the easier the game gets to compensate. every time you lose a mission, you get to draw more event cards in the following game, making you much more powerful. plus if you ever lose 4 missions in a row, you get to open the mysterious box #8, which i can only assume is some sort of super awesome powerful equalizer :)
+rahdo Thanks for your reply. I have another question, on an even darker tone than my last. You have only 5 character cards, right? And when a character dies, you destroy his card. Does this mean that if somehow 2 deaths occur, suddenly the game becomes only for a maximum of 3 players?
+Bogdan Hobinca i don't want to spoil anything, but if things go that bad for you in the short term, there are extra types of characters called 'civilians' who you can use as a stand in for special characters. and in the long term, i'll simply say there are many surprises waiting for you in the legacy deck, so that shouldn't be a problem for long :)
Nice Prince/Sinead O'Connor reference!
Balance wise, I think it was certainly a conscious design decision to keep it on the easier side because losing multiple campaigns in a row would be devastating to a player's psyche. I went 11-4 myself, and my two back to back losses in April were profoundly stressful.
Despite its ease, especially for seasoned Pandemic players, it is still quite engaging. So many have said this is game of the year, and I agree with them.
He is ranting a lot about the new connections. But the only changes are three extra connections in South America and even two less connections in black.
ranting?
@@rahdo Maybe not ranting but you stressed it a lot even though I don't really feel like it makes it that much easier.
So what's the trick to making it harder? How do you add an extra epidemic if you don't have pandemic?
basically, when you're splitting up the deck at the start into the sub-decks, each of which is supposed to get an epidemic card, divide into as many sub-decks as you want(the more, the harder). you won't have enough epidemic cards for all them, but put one each each deck you do have, and leave the un-epidemic'd subdeck(s) to the side. as you play, when you find an epidemic, after you're done dealing with it, shuffle it into one of the subdecks, and then add that subdeck to the bottom of the main deck. boom! :)
My son and I played this game last week, and we loved it!
If you play 3 player could you bring a 4th?
+philneilsen sure!
what happens after you have played it 12 times. is that mean you need to get a new board??
+Juan Urrutia i talked about it at length in my 'final final thoughts' (link for it in the show notes of this vid)
I want to thank you for doing this runthrough (spoilers included). Your video of Pandemic Cure got me hooked on "soloable" board games and introduced me into modern board gaming. I love your (and Jen's) passion for games!
I usually play co-op games solo (my husband is a PC gamer) and a legacy style game did not appeal to me, however after watching this run through and my love for the Pandemic franchise as a whole (still an easy mode player) I will definitely have to add this one to the want list!
Please also thank Jen for the great idea of painting the pawns because I also HATE the pink color!
Shout out to Doby and Tula, too!
Thanks again for all the great videos!
Hopefully my post about this will help set people at ease about the fact that the game is technically "disposable." Now right now I am in the second half of September (So my opinions may change), and I will NOT be giving any spoilers in this post.
There are two parts of this game that are unlike many others. There is the surprise story and there is the modifications to the board. The first of these that I want to talk about is the modifications to the board. I agree with Rahdo about the modifications to the board help create the dynamic intensity of the story. Just like his friend David said in the playthrough, "It was dreadful!" I think of this game like Christmas. I love Christmas every year. However, once I open the presents I will never create a situation where I can reset it, like putting velcro on the wrapping paper so I can experience opening the presents again! It's pointless. I already know what they are, and opening then again can never be as exciting as the first. At this point I do not plan on playing the missions again after I have completed all of the months because I wouldn't get the same pleasure of the original game.
So other than replay, why would anyone want to have the option to "reset" their game. The only thing that I can think of is to resell the game to another person. Which is reasonable since the game is rather expensive, why not resell it to another person who can play a used copy? That's where the experience comes in to play. If I go to a theme park with the intentions to resell my tickets, but the catch is that I can't take pictures, buy souvenirs, or have any part of it to keep, is that worth the small amount of money you would receive in return? The best part of this game is that you will have an entirely unique experience and board at the end. You and your friends have created something together, and now you have the keepsake that you can look at like old photos and remember the games you played. Also, if anyone else you know plays it fully, there is no reason you cannot show the boards to see how they differ. I think that would be a great experience as well!
Finally, the destruction of the components give a realistic cause and effect to the game. Just like Rahdo said in the video. You created the character, you invested the time to upgrade them and make them better. But if you lose them because you made a careless mistake, you should live with your choices and tear up what is needed. It will ad a sense of realism unlike video games or any other board games can provide.
Sorry for the lengthy post. Hopefully this helped a few people decide to buy it or not. Thanks again Rahdo for making this video. My final suggestion, if you get the chance to play just the first month, do so. And if you are unsure about playing it for yourself, volunteer to tear up the first card it tell you to do so. I think with your cringe, you'll understand the impact the designers made for you! Thanks all!
When u play this game can you pack away between episodes
yup, easy peasy to do so
Great video, definitely want to pick up Pandemic Legacy soon. But I felt I should point out that there are some video games with an Iron Man Mode... which is essentially... permadeath. You are locked into one save, and the game saves every time you make a key choice or when someone dies or whatever else could go wrong/change things. The newer XCOM games do this pretty well... as does Wasteland 2 I think... and Pillars of Eternity. There are probably more but that's all I'm aware of personally.
More connections between cities does make movement easier, but it also makes outbreaks more painful.
+Ricky Eads see my conversation with olivier prevot elsewhere in these comments for my reply to that :)
My thoughts very much echo yours. We're 8-2 so far, with both our losses coming in the same month (curiously, not a month that had a big Legacy Deck game alteration). It's amazing, with the biggest reason being exactly what you said. The permanence of the possible effects gives Pandemic Legacy and overarching strategy that regular Pandemic doesn't have. It's NOT just tactical.
We also have the same complaint as you do. It's too easy. And while for me, this is also elevated to one of my favorite games ever, garnering a full Keyflower rating (I rate games in fractions of a Keyflower), I think I feel a little more strongly about the easy difficulty level than you express in your closing statement. I feel just a little bit cheated by the easy difficulty level. We've played 10 games. We're 8-2. We have no collapsing cities. We have only one character with a single scar. We haven't had to struggle with the permanent negative effects that would give us a sense of paranoia I feel the game expects us to experience. I'm very much hoping a member of my regular game group purchases a copy, so I can participate (spoiler-free) in a hopefully more difficult playthrough.
Can't wait to finish the game and see your final final thoughts. Nice job navigating the spoiler mine-field with this one.
Hi Rahdo, just started to play this game with my wife. We are starting March now. Which characters did you and Jen play? Same two all the time? Or did you switch in between months. Hope you still remembered? :-)
sorry it's been SOOOOOOO long, i don't really remember anymore. but we did play the same two characters almost throughout the entire campaign, i do remember that
Rahdo thanks for replying. Even though it’s been long, I guess this one’s still in your top 3. Having an incredible experience with it, even though it’s an older game. Season 2 is waiting for us, still sealed. Love your videos!
my copy arrived yesterday. now it sits there taunting me. cause I have to wait till christmas. its my present but also my gaming group has no time untill christmas/newyears break.
its torture. also why I only watched your final thoughts. I have seen the variation for harder difficulty as well. and will definately implement it in our game.
We are all very good players of pandemic and I love me some doom and gloom and impossible odds. also I kind of wanna see what is in Box #8 !
+Tom W lol! good point - i can't imagine box 8 would ever get opened unless folks wanted to increase the difficulty :)
I'm glad to hear that others are able to get such a rich experience, because the opposite was true for our play. The developments simply did not really matter much until the very end.
In other words, the journey wasn't very eventful or challenging--EXCEPT the very end, and then it was over.
Cities will NOT necessarily fall. Not a single city fell.
It seems, our play-through was a freak outlier.
Maybe a 4 Player game would be a better experience, but I'm sure as heck not going to spend another $50-70 to try it.
+KAM1138a actually if you noted in my final thought, i agree that on the whole the game is too easy, and probably needs to have the difficulty level ramped up to create more of a dire challenge... :)
Yes, we agree on that, but for whatever reason, the developments in your games were more impactful than they were in ours.
Clearly, as you describe, those developments were deeply felt, but for us, it just wasn't there.
My copy should arrive tomorrow :)
+basslover1100 My copy is finally going to be played tomorrow.
Having a Legacy day, getting game 3 of Risk in and Game 1 (and maybe 2) of Pandemic.
Rahdo, the Robin Williams (rest in peace) of board game reviewers.
Hey, rahdo, I was listening to an interview with Matt and Rob last week (Rolling dice and taking names, go check it if you'd like), and they emphasized many times how story driven the game is. Now, about your feeling that the game is too easy, could it be for that reason? I mean, perhaps in order to keep the story running without jeopardizing weaker players' experience, they made it easier. Best regards!
+Guilherme Duque honestly, i think the game is purposely made easier than normal pandemic because the developers know that a LOT of people completely new to pandemic are going to be drawn in to this game, so they had to aim a bit lower on the difficulty scale. it would have been nice though if the game had come with an extra epidemic and a note in the rules aobut how to increase the diffulty if you're experienced players :)
+rahdo that is kind of what I was saying, although I focused on the story telling: by weaker player I meant someone with little ou no experience at all with pandemic. And I totally agree with you: they could have come up with something to increase the difficulty.
My only complaint:
The board is just such a major improvement in comparison to the standard Pandemic board that it's a shame to "destroy" it. I'd love to use it for regular Pandemic once I've run through the complete season...
+Bregeduur1 well you can... just ignore all the riot stickers and treat it like a standard pandemic board if you like :)
+rahdo I absolutely will anyways ;-)
It's just that it would have been awesome from Z-MAN to provide the possibility to remove the stickers (and other things like the names given to the diseases) without damaging the board. But again, this is only a very minor complaint; Pandemic Legacy is most assuredly the best game of this year; possibly of the last few years altogether!
The game is much easier with only 2 roles. We added a 3rd player (and role) and the difficulty bumped up. This game was intended for 4 players I am seeing. It's just too easy with 2 roles.
tldw :p - and yes, a very unique and awesome experience. could not agree more. Will probably have to play a second time with different people to spread the love.
This is truly a great game! :) We are just at month 6 and getting our asses kicked! ^^ We love it! :) I bought 2 copies but now I regret it because we do not want to replay the game. The experience is incredible and unique. However it seems you very recently said about another game it was your favorite game of the year (maybe gloomhaven or 7th continent but I am not sure). I do not completely agree with your saying that the game is on easy level because of the "roads". Having roads goes both ways also serves the diseases. And the funding makes the game different because 4 cards is normal for 2 players but not for 3 or 4. :)
By the way I did love your runthrough and final thoughts even if I had a remark to make. :)
And we also are very traumatized every time we have to put a sticker...
+Olivier Prevot it's true, the diseases benefit from the roads as well, but the players benefit *much more* in our experience, because the roads make it easier to put the diseases down before they get a chance to benefit from them. and while dropping funding hurts as you get successive wins, the other benefits you get more than make up for that, in our experience :)
+rahdo *SPOILERS* Maybe we have the issue of being 4 players. :) We are experienced coop and Pandemic players but we encounter many problems in this one ! :) The benefit you speak of is the little bonus for the next month when you win a game ? Because the advantages of winning are small otherwise, except that cities have less stickers. :) Having diseases easier to cure is great I agree, but having better characters is less so because you have to change characters to adapt to the scenario and to have relations between each other. :) What benefits do you see from successive winnings ? Maybe we missed something. :)
+Olivier Prevot *MORE SPOILERS* changing characters every session isn't necessary i think - starting with the feb, if you bring in 2 alt characters, all 4 players can have either co-worker or rival, and that's super powerful, more powerful than having 4 event cards in the draw pile (rivals is an insanely powerful ability)... that plus giving pilot to dispatcher and you're a godly group. plus, every time you win, you get the win bonus for the following month, which is also also just as powerful as having one of those missing events, because it's guaranteed useful, while event cards are very luck dependant. and once equipment comes into the game, you can convert all of the coda cards into powerful bonuses that are more plentiful than your missing event cards. so it's been our experience, that even with funding dropping to zero and more riots appearing, you still get progressively more and more powerful as the game goes on. :)
TBH, at first i thought this might only be an issue with 2p gaming, but then we tried it with 4 and found the same thing. and then i found that thread by the shadowrun designer, and so i figured there were enough people experiencing this that i should mention it. but I'd suggest heading over to that thread (link in the show notes above) and maybe continuing the discussion there, as long threads are hard to maintain in youtube, plus it's easier for innocents to accidentally have stuff spoiled :)
+rahdo I agree onwards to the BGG thread. Many thanks. Would love to have seen you at Essen, maybe another time. :)
I feel like 2 player pandemic (in general and definitely more so in legacy) is definitely easier than 3 and 4, since you start with more cards, have less people to trade with, you can load powers on only 2 chars, etc. Also depends on what characters you're using as well, but curing a disease on turn 1 is very very easy with 2 people.
OCD people have to hate this game, rip, tear, sticker the board the board. Not in their world.
I think you might be a statistical outlier for saying it's easy :P We are going into game 2 of September with a 50/50 win record. Sure you didn't flub any rules? ;)
+John Gallant we probably did, everyone makes goofs at some point, though I know of at least one mistake we made that turned the game significantly harder for us in the early missions (see below for spoiler), and yet we still breezed through them. so at first i was inclined to agree that it was just us, and the 'too easy' thing was an anomaly, but then i went on BGG, and a LOT of people are reporting the same thing, so i believe there is something to it, which is why i reported it here :)
*SPOILER* for the first few months, we didn't realize that you could still take coda cubes off the board with effects other than standard treatment, and so our grassroots campaign & other effects were largely wasted, making things harder than they should have been :)
+rahdo With the randomness of the infection deck I am sure that they designed it to be a bit easy on purpose. We got the nightmare draw in our game 2 with the first three cities being adjacent reds with another one of the 2 draws also being adjacent. Epidemic first turn with ANOTHER adjacent Red drawn (china was screwed) We had a fallen city by the end of that game. When you get that draw it makes a lot tougher right off the bat. So I have a feeling that they made it a bit easier to prevent a draw like that from being a complete torpedo of the rest of the campaign. We're running about 50% Wins moving into month 7 now.
I have to ask.
What is the point if making the game essentially be vandalized.
I agree, its the difference between save scumming and iron man mode.
Except that in a video game you can restart the campaign after having completed it without having to purchase it again.
I haven't seen many $60 games that can only be played once.
So the big question. What would stop someone from playing the 12 sessions with their velcro and then "reset the board" to start over later down the line with different people?
That sense of permanence is still there for your active playthrough. But you don't have to drop another $50~60 if you want to play it with a different group of people?
+Danjal Veskandar nothing's to stop you from velcroing or similar, other than it will make the overall game experience significantly weaker. but its your prerogative to do so, since it's your game if you buy it :)
*****
Thats what I don't understand, how does it change the game experience?
You still end up with the same "game", only you don't have to drop another $50+ to buy a new game if you want to replay.
Imagine if you had to rebuy every game after finishing it? I'm sure that the industry heads and shareholders would LOVE it, but beyond that?
The pressure or finality are the same on a game by game basis. And if you buy a new game you also start over so thats exactly the same as if you'd reset the board yourself.
So the only 'issue' would be with people that do not have that self-control and would "save-scum", rewinding things that happened when its bad. And they'll do that anyway.
+Danjal Veskandar a game experience is more than just navigating a set of rules that creates problems to solve. there's an emotional and social component as well, and these are the things (not the rules) that are affected and enhanced by legacy-style permanence.
*****
What permanence though? Once you're through that one campaign, if you want to experience it again you have to buy a new box.
There is no permanence there.
And to anyone except the group that you've played with. There is no emotional or social attachment. Its just another board.
If you want to share that experience, those emotions. The only way is to get a new board.
Play the entire game anew.
It seems to me, that since that core experience is what makes these legacy games so amazing.
The inability to share that with others is a fault, rather than a selling point.
-
I completely agree with what you say in your video. That the act of save-scumming ruins a certain experience in games. That sticking through choices or events can make a far more memorable experience.
Which is a selling point for the legacy concept.
Yet by making it so you can't share that experience, That kinda falls flat.
Unless you want to buy a new box each time.
Imagine having to buy a new copy of every game after completely finishing its contents once.
+Danjal Veskandar there is 100% permanence. i don't understand how you can view it any other way than the consequences of your actions being permanently etched onto the board.
i can only assume you haven't watched the updated final thoughts vid I put up yesterday, having finished the actual game itself?
We are right now 4-0 with 4 players
yeah, they really should have included extra outbreak cards to increase difficulty if players wanted
There's a spoiler in this video, but I won't point it out :)
+Slyght shhhhhh! :)
I appreciate the design, but I got into board games to get away from "consumable" entertainment.
+Jesse Haulk Yep. Board games are typically, a great entertainment value. Not these legacy games, though.
What a waste of material... and resources in my opinion! I can understand that it's a one way trip and you would have no interest in replaying that campaign more than one time (even thought I think I would appreciate it still since you can always change the player count and you starting character, create your own variant, etc) but it would have been nice if I can replay that game, give to a friend or even use it to play regular pandemic without creating permanent material destruction.
Rahdo talk about the similarity of MMO and the choices you make in the game are permanent. That's true but in a MMO, you can always create a new character and do the campaign all over again, even if you already know the storyline.
Anyway just my two cents.
+Maxime Daoust in an MMO you keep paying to play. you can keep paying to play pandemic legacy as well by buying additional copies :)
+Maxime Daoust I agree, I despise the legacy games.
Even MMOs (with their rampant greed) don't make you buy the game again to play another character.
At its most basic - legacy is a cash grab. A cynical ploy to make people buy the same game over and over.
It's despicable and a bane to the community.
+rahdo So, let's allow board games to go as greed based as MMOs are? Only, MORE SO?
BTW, you pay a sub fee (far less than the purchase price) to continue to play. HOW much you play is up to you. You don't have to pay for each server. You don't have to pay to group with a different set of players.
MMOs have their flaws, but legacy board games are far worse.
+MMODoubter sorry, i find the notion that the developers of boardgames are craven greedy bastards trying to create designs specifically to rob customers to be completely out touch with reality. i've met these people in real life, and i've talked to them about what they're trying to accomplish with their creations, and where their passion lies, and it's not in trying to bilk you. NO ONE is going to get rich making boardgames, and to assume the worst of people like this is depressingly cynical, IMO.
no offense meant, but yeah, that's how i feel about that :)
*****
NO ONE, Richard? NO ONE? Not ONE game dev is greedy? Not ONE wants to be rich? They are all paragons of virtue? Remarkable.
I have news for you, Rich. SOME people are in the business as a job, not a 'selfless labour of love'. They are in it to make as much as they can.
How many people in the marketing departments have you talked to? Everyone wants to be rich. It's a matter of the lengths to which individuals are willing to go to make it happen. What other aspects of life they are willing to sacrifice.
Rob Daviau lied on BGG about the destructive nature of legacy games NOT being prompted by visions of resales. Well, it was not an accident, Rich. These games could have been designed to be reset-able. He chose not to. He said that no one ever mentioned during development of Risk: Legacy that the design would lead to repeated purchases.
Game designers are PEOPLE, Richard. Not heroes or saints.
I am surprised, Richard, that you would support the 'legacy' style of games. Very disappointed.
+MMODoubter i am surprised that you care so much about what Richard wants to support. i am very disappointed in you.