The idea that canon law preserves one of the 4 Prohibitions is fascinating to me. I would love to be convinced that the future of post-supersessionism runs through an extant pre-supersessionist Christian tradition [insert accretions disclaimer]. I think it's a tall order but will keep listening.
The big problem there is that so much energy is devoted to defending the blasphemous teachings of the talmud and the traditions of the pharisees. I've been attending a messianic synagogue for the last three years and just recently discovered orthodoxy.
I find it interesting how a discussion of the Old Testament stimulates, in some people, thoughts of antisemitism. Hitler’s persecution of Jews had nothing to do with his views of the Old Testament.
St. Paul says that if you get circumcised you must follow the whole law. Does that mean that if my parents had me circumcised as a baby that I have to keep the law? What if I have my children circumcised? Does the orthodox church have a stance on circumcision in general?
I have a friend who is very much into keeping the feasts and commands of the OT. They also have a belief about the line of King David and the throne of England. I would love to know the history of where these beliefs came from.
Revelation 12:17 New International Version 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring-those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
I know someone called in and asked it, but I guess I’m having a hard time understanding why commandments of the Torah would persist for a Jewish Christian community and not everyone. Like, if the church is Israel why don’t we all keep all Torah. I get the explanation from the council in Acts 15 but is that an ethnic decision? Will non Jewish Christians always be “outsiders” to the Torah? That doesn’t make sense to me. Also the idea that a possible mass conversion of Jews to Orthodox Christianity and forming and continuing to observe the Torah commandments-doesn’t Christ’s “memorial” (Eucharist) fulfill the OT memorial offerings? I’m having a hard time understanding, and maybe it’s my protestant background, but why would there be any need to continue ritual sacrifice of animals and other kind of food in light of Christ, saving sacrifice and outpouring of his blood. I don’t know, it’s just all confusing. I’ve never heard someone explicitly argue that the Torah hasn’t been superseded by the new covenant, but it sounds like that’s the argument here and I don’t get it.
Do we see this discussed in the apostolic fathers? How long was the early church Jewish before it mostly became gentiles? Is there strong evidence of early Christian church communities composed of mostly Jews, continuing to observe Torah commandments in a way that the Orthodox Church largely doesn’t now?
The Torah and it’s laws are given for the Jews to keep. The God of Israel is still the God of the entire world, and the Noahide laws are for all humanity to keep.
What people misunderstand is that the four prohibitions in Acts 15 where a STARTING POINT so that gentiles could enter the synagogues and hear the law of Moses which was preached every sabbath. It was never meant to be the only four laws gentiles needed to keep. The whole reason for the council in the first place was because some groups were teaching that circumcision and keeping the law was required for salvation, which isn't true. Now, being so far separated from that time, we have a tradition of teaching the laws of Moses have been "done away with" and all you need in life is to just intellectually believe in Jesus without changing your behaviors. People don't want to hear that they're sinners. They just want to sleep comfortably at night believing they can do no wrong. In my opinion, it's a mistake, but I'm just a guy on the internet...
Love hearing this discussion, shocking its coming from the Catholic corner and men who still refer to themselves as "father" in light of Matt 23:9... but this is very encouraging! HalaluYah!!
Christ called Abraham Father. Christ meant, do not idolize anyone above your Heavenly Father, and do not have role models that are fallible and not of God. If we follow this verse literally we find that we couldn’t call anyone “teacher” as well. There is only one true role model, that is God, and there is only one true teacher, and that is God. God bless you and your family! ☦️
I think that there are a couple of things which had not been addressed. Firstly, the sabbath, the seventh day of rest: why don't we, the Christians, keep it, since it is not only a Jewish thing or rule, but it was made for all people, and instituted before the Jewish or the Mosaic laws were given, from the seventh day of creation, in Genesis, and the seventh day was also sanctified by God? Secondly, did Jesus actually said, in Matthew 15 and Mark 7, that there are no clean and unclean foods, or that no food can make someone unclean, thus making the Jewish food laws obsolete, as He was actually speaking to Jewish people there, so the Jews should or must not keep those dietary rules anymore? Or was that passage reffering only to the ritual cleaning of foods, saying that the unwashed food does not make people unclean? But I saw that, both in the Orthodox and the protestant Bibles, those verses are associated, as a reference, with the later new testament passages which declare all animals or foods clean and eliminate the restrictions.
2:38:30 What about repentance in case of murder, adultery or other sins for which death penalty is prescribed. Does the "high hand" prescription means that, in the old testament, death penalty also applies only if the perpetrator does not repent? What about the new testament, for Christians? Does death penalty still applies? Because, if I'm not mistaken, it was also proscribed for all the people living in the land, Jews and gentiles. If it doesn't apply anymore, why not?
I was taught that sacrifices only cover involuntary sins when I was an evangelical. The way that voluntary sins were reconciled is just by a special act of God, usually because of something like you are really sorry and God felt bad and forgave you.
3:11:20 I would argue, regarding these dialogues and attempts to convince based on Torah, that there were and are, especially today with and on the internet, a lot of debates and dialogues between well instructed Christians, including Orthodox, and Jewish rabbis or believers, and we can't say that the rabbis ' view or the Jewish public opinion was changed, and there are even rabbis or Jewish movements who persist even more in combating the Christian teaching. So, it is not that there isn't an exchange of ideas or an acknowledgement of the Christian arguments, although there are many Jews who don't know much about Christianity. But, there are also Jews, especially young and not rabbis, who are more receptive and convinced by OT passages, like Isaiah 53, and who become Christians. See the mesianic Jewish movement in Israel, MJAI, and One for Israel. BTW, MJAI sing great worship songs. They have a channel on TH-cam.
Icons are Avoda Zara/foreign worship. Catholics don’t keep rituals nor feast days, they also have another priesthood which makes it another religion. Rome is the new holy city; a new religion.
The one dude has got to stop saying “right” after almost every sentence That’s nit picky, I know, but it makes it really hard to keep listening because that’s all I focus on lol
![Lord of Spirits - Torah 2: Back in the Habit [Ep. 88]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2cCickcSHF0/mqdefault.jpg)
![Lord of Spirits - Torah 2: Back in the Habit [Ep. 88]](/img/tr.png)
![Lord of Spirits - The Season of Virtue [Ep. 86]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8GkKy0r5wio/mqdefault.jpg)
This topic deserves to be a book.
I am stunned. 99.9% of this conversation is consistent with the best of the Messianic Jewish movement.
The idea that canon law preserves one of the 4 Prohibitions is fascinating to me. I would love to be convinced that the future of post-supersessionism runs through an extant pre-supersessionist Christian tradition [insert accretions disclaimer]. I think it's a tall order but will keep listening.
The big problem there is that so much energy is devoted to defending the blasphemous teachings of the talmud and the traditions of the pharisees. I've been attending a messianic synagogue for the last three years and just recently discovered orthodoxy.
😊 Thanks for your Scripture service.
I have chills and am wordless.
TH-cam decided an ad every 5 minutes would be awesome.
Yeah you weren't kidding. There were ads quite literally every 3-4 minutes. I'm sorry about that, I've disabled the midroll ads for this video.
Casual New Perspective enjoyer
"Even Enochich Judaism...was still based." - Father Stephen De Young.
I find it interesting how a discussion of the Old Testament stimulates, in some people, thoughts of antisemitism. Hitler’s persecution of Jews had nothing to do with his views of the Old Testament.
💯
The first time the show takes a question this early in the show, and this is the question 🙄.
St. Paul says that if you get circumcised you must follow the whole law. Does that mean that if my parents had me circumcised as a baby that I have to keep the law? What if I have my children circumcised? Does the orthodox church have a stance on circumcision in general?
Dunkin' Donuts has several locations in South Korea 🙂
I have a friend who is very much into keeping the feasts and commands of the OT. They also have a belief about the line of King David and the throne of England. I would love to know the history of where these beliefs came from.
@@smittycity42 is that like the Pick Of Destiny?
@@smittycity42 hence a Stuart should be on the throne
@@LizCanKnitsatanus; that’s Latin for satan
Revelation 12:17
New International Version
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring-those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
Excellent episode, sans all the “antisemitism” stuff. The Tsar St Nicholas was right.
I know someone called in and asked it, but I guess I’m having a hard time understanding why commandments of the Torah would persist for a Jewish Christian community and not everyone. Like, if the church is Israel why don’t we all keep all Torah. I get the explanation from the council in Acts 15 but is that an ethnic decision? Will non Jewish Christians always be “outsiders” to the Torah? That doesn’t make sense to me. Also the idea that a possible mass conversion of Jews to Orthodox Christianity and forming and continuing to observe the Torah commandments-doesn’t Christ’s “memorial” (Eucharist) fulfill the OT memorial offerings? I’m having a hard time understanding, and maybe it’s my protestant background, but why would there be any need to continue ritual sacrifice of animals and other kind of food in light of Christ, saving sacrifice and outpouring of his blood. I don’t know, it’s just all confusing. I’ve never heard someone explicitly argue that the Torah hasn’t been superseded by the new covenant, but it sounds like that’s the argument here and I don’t get it.
Do we see this discussed in the apostolic fathers? How long was the early church Jewish before it mostly became gentiles? Is there strong evidence of early Christian church communities composed of mostly Jews, continuing to observe Torah commandments in a way that the Orthodox Church largely doesn’t now?
The Torah and it’s laws are given for the Jews to keep. The God of Israel is still the God of the entire world, and the Noahide laws are for all humanity to keep.
@@johnparker4484yes, in Palestine in particular. After the Pella flight, the demographics changed
What people misunderstand is that the four prohibitions in Acts 15 where a STARTING POINT so that gentiles could enter the synagogues and hear the law of Moses which was preached every sabbath. It was never meant to be the only four laws gentiles needed to keep. The whole reason for the council in the first place was because some groups were teaching that circumcision and keeping the law was required for salvation, which isn't true. Now, being so far separated from that time, we have a tradition of teaching the laws of Moses have been "done away with" and all you need in life is to just intellectually believe in Jesus without changing your behaviors. People don't want to hear that they're sinners. They just want to sleep comfortably at night believing they can do no wrong. In my opinion, it's a mistake, but I'm just a guy on the internet...
Love hearing this discussion, shocking its coming from the Catholic corner and men who still refer to themselves as "father" in light of Matt 23:9... but this is very encouraging! HalaluYah!!
Oh, we're not catholics. Not roman catholic at least. Fr. Stephen and Fr. Andrew are priests in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Christ called Abraham Father. Christ meant, do not idolize anyone above your Heavenly Father, and do not have role models that are fallible and not of God. If we follow this verse literally we find that we couldn’t call anyone “teacher” as well. There is only one true role model, that is God, and there is only one true teacher, and that is God. God bless you and your family! ☦️
I think that there are a couple of things which had not been addressed. Firstly, the sabbath, the seventh day of rest: why don't we, the Christians, keep it, since it is not only a Jewish thing or rule, but it was made for all people, and instituted before the Jewish or the Mosaic laws were given, from the seventh day of creation, in Genesis, and the seventh day was also sanctified by God?
Secondly, did Jesus actually said, in Matthew 15 and Mark 7, that there are no clean and unclean foods, or that no food can make someone unclean, thus making the Jewish food laws obsolete, as He was actually speaking to Jewish people there, so the Jews should or must not keep those dietary rules anymore? Or was that passage reffering only to the ritual cleaning of foods, saying that the unwashed food does not make people unclean? But I saw that, both in the Orthodox and the protestant Bibles, those verses are associated, as a reference, with the later new testament passages which declare all animals or foods clean and eliminate the restrictions.
The following shows will probably address your points more, but you can find answers to a lot of your questions in the book Religion of the Apostles.
Several of these things will be talked about in the next episode.
2:38:30 What about repentance in case of murder, adultery or other sins for which death penalty is prescribed. Does the "high hand" prescription means that, in the old testament, death penalty also applies only if the perpetrator does not repent? What about the new testament, for Christians? Does death penalty still applies? Because, if I'm not mistaken, it was also proscribed for all the people living in the land, Jews and gentiles. If it doesn't apply anymore, why not?
We'll be talking about the death penalty in the next episode.
@@frandrewstephendamickIt's him!!!!
I was taught that sacrifices only cover involuntary sins when I was an evangelical. The way that voluntary sins were reconciled is just by a special act of God, usually because of something like you are really sorry and God felt bad and forgave you.
3:11:20 I would argue, regarding these dialogues and attempts to convince based on Torah, that there were and are, especially today with and on the internet, a lot of debates and dialogues between well instructed Christians, including Orthodox, and Jewish rabbis or believers, and we can't say that the rabbis ' view or the Jewish public opinion was changed, and there are even rabbis or Jewish movements who persist even more in combating the Christian teaching. So, it is not that there isn't an exchange of ideas or an acknowledgement of the Christian arguments, although there are many Jews who don't know much about Christianity. But, there are also Jews, especially young and not rabbis, who are more receptive and convinced by OT passages, like Isaiah 53, and who become Christians. See the mesianic Jewish movement in Israel, MJAI, and One for Israel. BTW, MJAI sing great worship songs. They have a channel on TH-cam.
Icons are Avoda Zara/foreign worship. Catholics don’t keep rituals nor feast days, they also have another priesthood which makes it another religion. Rome is the new holy city; a new religion.
You should research more the orthodox position on veneration. You are wrong
The one dude has got to stop saying “right” after almost every sentence
That’s nit picky, I know, but it makes it really hard to keep listening because that’s all I focus on lol